Suggestion for new Oceana units

[Baalz]

Going under the assumption that KO will add whatever inspires him, I thought I'd suggest a few very cool, thematic things that might be added to MA Oceana. Some of these would be summoned, some might make sense to be recruitable.

MA Oceana:
Giant crocodile - how cool is that? Powerful bite can have an entangling effect similar to Machaka's spiders making it good for taking down large thugs, er...game.

Scylla - from the same Homer as Sirens, kind of an amphibious hydra. Aside from being hella cool, this could give Oceana a good poison immune amphibian to leverage one of the few things than can cast well - poison. "Scylla was a horribly grotesque sea monster, with six long necks equipped with grisly heads, each of which contained three rows of sharp teeth. Her body consisted of twelve canine legs and a cat's tail."

Selkie - Kind of a A/W niad, giving Oceana access to a strong air mage. "The shy Selkies are marine creatures in the shape of a seal. They can be found near the islands of Orkney and Shetland. A female can shed her skin and come ashore as a beautiful woman. When a man finds the skin, he can force the Selkie to be a good, if somewhat sad, wife. Should she ever recover the skin, she will immediately return to sea, leaving her husband behind. The male Selkies are responsible for storms and also for the sinking of ships, which is their way of avenging the hunting of seals."

All in all I think Oceana could be retouched to be more of a raging sea/storm type theme with good air magic. This is closer to Pangea's "nature is pissed off" motif, and would not only go a long way towards making Oceana more competitive, it would also add a strong differentiation to them as a water nation. They already seem more generally amphibious than the other water nations (other than the crippling of their mages), making them a water/air/nature nation would be pretty cool while certainly leaving them nothing like Caelum or the various A/N nations. They've got good raiders, theming them as reaver coast raiders was a lot of in fun Kingmaker - I was thinking along the lines of the Greyjoys from A Song of Ice and Fire.

[Sombre]

I like the idea of an amphibious hydra of sorts, probably as a nature/water summon that can be cast underwater to help you get onto land.

Also since the nation was inspired by medieval bestiaries, here's a random online bestiary and an interesting entry.

http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast244.htm

[thejeff]

I like the sea/storm idea. Water/Air is not a common combination. Would be nice to get some useful national combat spells along those lines, along with summons. The only underwater idea that comes to mind is a Drowning in Air that suffocates aquatics.

Simplest boost, though, would be to not cripple Capricorns ashore. Just drop their water path, maybe even boost Earth?

[HoneyBadger]

I also like the idea of a crocodile summons. Considering the importance of crocodiles in mythology, their absence from the game is unfortunate and strange.

[cleveland]

This could be fun:

Make the Ichtycentaurs & Trident Knights BETTER on land than in the water. It would make for a neat dichotomy, with the Capricorns being good in water & bad on land.

Perhaps make them Poor Amphibians (so -3Att, -3Def, +1Enc underwater), compensating by giving +2Att, +2Def, -2Enc?

Thus in the sea...
Ichtycentaur: 9Att, 16Def, 3Enc
Trident Knight: 10Att, 15Def, 7Enc

On land...
Ichtycentaur: 12Att, 19Def, 2Enc
Trident Knight: 13Att, 18Def, 6Enc

Could be explained as follows: "Unlike most amphibians, ichtycentaurs have evolved from land-dwelling ancestors. Their bodies are therefore not quite suited for movement through water, a handicap they've overcome by developing tremendous stamina. All ichtycentaurs have amazing endurance, making them fearsome warriors above the waves."

Gives them a Navy Seals feel. Trident Knights are now worthy of an E9 bless (22Prot, 2Enc, Amphibious is unheard of), and the ichtycentaurs are submarine PD killers. Also gives Oceania some survivability vs. Rlyeh as they can now take & hold land. Aesthetically pleasing too...no drastic changes & works within the game's mechanics.

Also, I'll continue to suggest that the Capricorns become (100% +2 ENWA), from (100% +1 ENWA, 10% +1 ENWA) so that they can bring their meager earth & air magic on shore.

Though I do like your suggestions Baalz.

[Wrana]

Crocodiles I'll also vote for! I wouldn't say they should entangle, however - this could be left for some separate units (sea snakes, coralls, etc.). But crocodiles have a nice habit of using their tails for leg-breaking attacks - which would also be painful for enemy thugs.
Also, we could dig into actual Oceanian mythology, as the name itself suggests (unfortunately, I'm not good in that, but I'm sure we can dig out something interesting).
I do not think that they should have their best units made better on land than in water, though - something else must be found.

[JimMorrison]

This "Raging Sea" concept is beautiful, good thinking!

I like the "Drowning in Air" spell, which like Sailor's Death would fill the gills of an aquatic creature with gases. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Also, this is not specific to MA Oceania, as they're amphibious already, but it makes me think it would be nice if there were a ritual that would make a specific commander able to leave the sea AND bring some amount (10 or 20 maybe?) of aquatic creatures with them. This would be especially meaningful to EA Oceania and EA R'lyeh.

As for the mages, rather than a change that makes them stronger underwater (which may not be acceptable by design), at least make them similar to Slave Mages, where they only lose 1W, but keep their other paths. This is still really detrimental, but not a complete crippling of the caster.

[Spendios]

Some suggestions :

A chariot drawn by hippocampi or dolphins

A very big and very hungry shark

Loch Ness monster

Mosasaurus like monster

Jörmungandr (though would be a nordic nations specific summon)

Charybdis (like a living whirlpool)

[Endoperez]

I really like Cleveland's idea of making Ichtycentaurs more powerful in land. A group of strange beings coming up from the waves, jumping into air and coming down on four legs, and charging. Also, Ichtycentaurs (and other Oceania amphibious guys) could be given Swamp Survival. It's just a minor bonus, but it'd mean Oceania can use Quagmire to give their troops an edge aboveground.

Oceania reminds me of Gene Wolfe's Knight Wizard duology, which I just re-read thanks to a thread in these forums. In the books, "strength of the sea" is described as being able to come at you again and again like the waves, never stopping and never growing tired; to fall down when felled to rise again, like a tide, with enough strength to crush mountains. I thought of this because earth-blessed ichtycentaurs would have abilities similar to those the knight taught about the sea had: reinvigoration, rejuvenation and ability to survive underwater.



Baalz' suggestions are well-thought, except that I don't think Crocodiles should be their own summon. Crocodiles and perhaps some amphibious creatures summonable in swamps and coastal provinces with Summon Animals would be nice, but even big crocodiles are just weaker cave drakes, and not even really amphibious. Shark Knights are awesome, but Oceania's ichtycentaurs are supposed to be their underwater cavalry, so they shouldn't be necessary. Some denizen of the deep is more interesting. Perhaps access to the Bogarus remote summons, or similar new spells?

[BesucherXia]

I think even Pangaea, specially the MA one should have access to some amphibians summons.
This could be thematically reasonable, given the fact that in MA the ocean has been somewhat overran by "evil races", and the ocean and the wild are supposed to be nature allies.

I also like Baalz' suggestion and cannot stop imagining their appearances now.

[JimMorrison]

Endo, the inclusion of SS is brilliant. I really think Survival traits would add new layers of strategy if more widely applied, and this is an excellent example. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Sombre]

I'm dead set against them getting swamp survival. I don't see why they should. They aren't swamp dwelling races. If it's on the basis of them being amphibious, why not give all amphibians swamp survival?

[HoneyBadger]

One thing I've always wanted to see was the Great Kraken as an Ammonite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonite
I find them much more interesting that simply bigger and bigger squids, maybe because I've actually held their fossils in my hands, but it would be fantastic if the Great Kraken could be a survivor of this extinct (as far as we know) species.

Another thing that could be fun is if there were some type of fossilized Ammonite underwater summons. Imagine a Great Kraken, only now it's made from living stone.

There are all kinds of really interesting extinct animals out there that could be put back into the game in various ways and forms, to very good use.

[JimMorrison]

Sombre said:
I'm dead set against them getting swamp survival. I don't see why they should. They aren't swamp dwelling races. If it's on the basis of them being amphibious, why not give all amphibians swamp survival?



Why not indeed? But I think it's more on the basis that they are aquatic origin amphibians, as opposed to land origin amphibians. That distinction may be important, may not be. Like I said, I think Survival traits should be more widespread - not because of the Supply issue, but because it opens up options for movement. And in this case, new strategic options for a nation that has few of them currently.

[Endoperez]

Sombre said:
I'm dead set against them getting swamp survival. I don't see why they should. They aren't swamp dwelling races. If it's on the basis of them being amphibious, why not give all amphibians swamp survival?



It came from thinking if it would be possible to have Ichtycentaurs run on water, i.e. sailing for Ichtycentaurs lead by Ichtycentaurs. I realized the current Sailing command wouldn't work and implementing another mechanic would be a huge process at this point, so I didn't even mention it in my post.
Then, from that, I thought that at the very least they should be able to do that on swamps. I liked the mechanical effect it would give them, so I suggested Swamp Survival.

[Tifone]

This thread is so damn exciting... the idea of "nature is pissed off" applied to the ocean guys seem great to me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

As I wasn't able to find a guide to MA Oceania and didn't play it yet, I just would like if someone tells me briefly what are this nations weaknesses and strong points and how does it play usually in early, mid, late game. Briefly ^_^

Because I would like to find something imaginative and nice too, but also not completely unbalanced or twisting to its natural gameplay.

The ideas I liked the most for now are the crocodile (it could be a nice water/nature summon) and the chariot lead by hippocampi or dolphins ^^ And even the amphibian Ichtycentaurs gallopping furiously on the surface of water (and the consequently swamp survival trait) is an EPIC image http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Wrana]

Dolphin chariot is good idea. Though it's possible that it won't add so much to Oceania specifically. According to MA idea of more advanced technology, they could gain some harpoon-throwing troops, though...
Considering Ammonite - it could be cool idea, but unfortunately, this would be trading much movement for some more protection. And fossils are out of question here, as such fossils would only contain shell - so nothing to reanimate... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif In any case some type of Kraken mage summon would be cool for this purely aquatic race. Another possibility could be well-armored giant slug(s) with some special effects or crabs which could leave water...
Considering swamp survival: this is good idea in my opinion, but maybe not so appropriate for ichtycentaurs... Maybe some special unti/summon (like the above-mentioned slugs) could be better.
Another beast often forgotten is hyppopotamus - that's quite amphibious creature (though it breathes with lungs just as crocodiles do) with trampling and very healthy bite, though it's somewhat smaller than elephant (size 5?).

[Tifone]

Actually, the hyppo is the 2nd beast in Africa for number of men slaughtering... but it still reminds me too much the Disney ones XD

Well, jokes aside, on a second thought maybe - maybe - the hyppo as well as the crocodyle are a little too far from the "Raging Sea" that was in the ideas of Baalz and others.
Maybe they should be common nature/water summons?
For MA Oceania many of the other creatures people talked about seem nice... except IMHO Scylla... the Odyssey is very unclear about its nature, it's just some kind of hydra with 12 heads but not a lot more is known... not so original I think. ^_^ Maybe the Northern myths are more fitting?

[Baalz]

The reason I really like the Scylla is because

1) It fits very well thematically with a nation that already has Sirens

2) It fits very well from a gameplay point of view for a nation that *really* someting amphibious, poison resistant, and tough enough to frontline.

3) It wouldn't need to be just like a hydra, and knowing Illwinter I doubt it would. It could be smaller, have no poison aura, no regeneration, more armor, more fear, is a berserker, doesn't use the same head loss mechanic, etc. There are lots of ways that it could be made to play drastically different than the hydra, and the very ambiguousness about it's nature plus a little creative license give a lot of leeway.

4) It's just hella cool

[Endoperez]

Wrana said:
Considering Ammonite - it could be cool idea, but unfortunately, this would be trading much movement for some more protection. And fossils are out of question here, as such fossils would only contain shell - so nothing to reanimate... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif In any case some type of Kraken mage summon would be cool for this purely aquatic race.



Hidden in Snow: frozen corpses that have survived in ancient glaciers
Hidden in Sand: corpses mummified and protected by dry sand of ancient deserts
Reawaken Fossil: LA Abysia national spell to reanimate "the fossilized giants once defeated by fire in the valley of Megiddo"

1+2 = Hidden Under the Waves?
Water/Nature Aboleth hybrid crossbreed monsters with various terrifying abilities?
Water/Death ammonite monsters with thick shells and lots of tentacles? (I suggest nipponite (http://images.google.com/images?q=nipponite) shells.)
Water/Earth for something that lives deep, VERY deep! Things somewhat like the EA Atlantis Deep Ones, but worse. Perhaps a swarm of hivemind-worms, something like mindless Aboleth polyps?

Things like eel/oar fish, ray fish (http://images.google.com/images?q="eagle+ray") or something like that is strange.

EDIT: It seems question marks in the url only work in preview... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[cleveland]

Pod of Orca (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/killers/hunters.html) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Foodstamp]

cleveland said:
Pod of Orca (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/killers/hunters.html) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Make it so http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[HoneyBadger]

For Scylla, if she's to be a unique monster, might I refer you to the movie "Deep Rising"?. Yes it's awful, in so many ways, but it's fun in it's awfulness, and the monster-while one of the worse CGI incarnations out there-had enough uniqueness to it to render it interesting fodder for artistic salvage. For that matter, since I'm on an ammonite kick, how about an ammonite Great Kraken who's arms are actually heads?

And what about Charybdis, the living vortex?

[TheMenacer]

For a bevy of interesting summons, might I suggest drawing inspiration from the drawings of sea life that'd show up on old maps and charts as decoration? You know the ones I'm talking about, back when a lobster was depicted as having a mammal head and two jets of water shooting out of its face and a whale was pretty much exactly the same thing but without claws. That stuff was pretty weird and would really fit the bill for an aquatic nation based on semi-medieval european notion of what the ocean was like.

[HoneyBadger]

Yeah,TheMenacer, that's a great idea! Some of those creatures depicted were really fun.

Here's what Wiki has to say on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_be_dragons#Dragons_on_maps

[Tifone]

I've got an idea! I live in Florence, now I go down to Sicilia to find those goddamn Scylla and Carybdis, stun the with punches and bring them here so we can do those goddamn sprites http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

[Wrana]

TheMenacer's idea is good. Unfortunately I have no information on hand and don't trust Wikipedia much.

Endoperez:
Hidden in Snow: frozen corpses that have survived in ancient glaciers
Hidden in Sand: corpses mummified and protected by dry sand of ancient deserts
Reawaken Fossil: LA Abysia national spell to reanimate "the fossilized giants once defeated by fire in the valley of Megiddo"
1+2 = Hidden Under the Waves?
Water/Nature Aboleth hybrid crossbreed monsters with various terrifying abilities?
Water/Death ammonite monsters with thick shells and lots of tentacles? (I suggest


I should humbly point out that while glaciers and desert sands actually do allow a good preservation of corpses, be they human or otherwise, sea waters don't! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif They have just too good conditions for scavengers and decay-inducing bacteria. So there are almost no legends about dead in sea unless they are ghosts - and those are already in the game, actually in several incarnations.
Furthermore, Deep Ones and similar creatures are already in Atlantis army list (and some in R'lyeh). So it wouldn't be in style to include them in Oceania - they won't fit thematically. Triton shell chariots, on the other hand, were depicted often.. Speaking of which, maybe triton shell blowers should be added as well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Some living corals/coral statues would be better - and probably fit theme more. Orcas would be cool as well - but it would be difficult to make them clearly different from sharks in game terms I suspect... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif I agree to "nature is pissed" concept for this nation, by the way.
Considering Scylla & Charybdis - they would be cool, but they are unique, so wouldn't probably do too much to add to general Oceania might.

[HoneyBadger]

I don't trust Wiki any more than any other extremely large body of information that any yahoo can edit as they see fit (history, anyone?). Or for that matter, anything I read or see on television or the Internet, or with my own eyes (I happen to be a fan of Criss Angel). But it remains an extremely large body of information. It's not something you necessarily need to trust. It's there to use, and can at the very least serve as a stepping-stone to greater knowledge and awareness.

Reality is what you decide it is, or what you're forced to accept as real. If you refuse to accept that your human experience conform to nothing other than scientifically provable facts, then why bother playing video games or reading books or using your imagination at all, when you could be cuddling up with a calculator?

[Kristoffer O]

> Scylla - from the same Homer as Sirens, kind of an amphibious hydra. Aside from being hella cool, this could give Oceana a good poison immune amphibian to leverage one of the few things than can cast well - poison. "Scylla was a horribly grotesque sea monster, with six long necks equipped with grisly heads, each of which contained three rows of sharp teeth. Her body consisted of twelve canine legs and a cat's tail."

Actually Scylla is already in the game, as the drakaina pretender. I used the slightly more bizzare version of her with a female torso, fish tail with six baying dogs at the waist.

But the capricorns might need some leverage. I'm quite fond of half-fish.

[Wrana]

Yes! I knew it seemed familiar! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif
Msy I also humbly suggest something like real-world amphibious fishes? (say, latimeria-like?) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Maybe even with triton/mermen riders?

[thejeff]

I'd hesitate to focus to much on new animal summons, at least as a way to boost Oceania. They may be cool, but with animal MR, they'd only be useful in the early game and not against R'lyeh even then.

I do like the giant fossil ammonites. But then ammonites are just neat.

[Baalz]

"In Babylonian myths, Tiamat is a huge, bloated female dragon that personifies the saltwater ocean, the water of Chaos. She is also the primordial mother of all that exists, including the gods themselves. Her consort is Apsu, the personification of the freshwater abyss that lies beneath the Earth. From their union, saltwater with freshwater, the first pair of gods were born. They are Lachmu and Lachamu, parents of Ansar and Kisar, grandparents of Anu and Ea.

In the creation epic Enuma elish, written around 2000 BCE, their descendants started to irritate Tiamat and Apsu so they decided to kill their offspring. Ea discovered their plans and he managed to kill Apsu while the latter was asleep. Tiamat flew into a rage when she learned about Apsu's death and wanted to avenge her husband. She created an army of monstrous creatures, which was to be led by her new consort Kingu, who is also her son. Eventually, Tiamat was defeated by the young god Marduk, who was born in the deep freshwater sea. "

I was thinking along the lines of wrathful seas that Tiamat is the logical angle to extend MA Oceana thematically, being the goddess of chaos and saltwater and already referenced in the game. Probably too powerful to be directly summoned, but she's also famous for creating a hoard of monsters.

"Meanwhile, Tiamat created monster serpents as her invincible weapons. She filled their bodies with venom instead of blood and gave them sharp teeth and long fangs. She fashioned terrifying dragons and crowned them with halos like the gods, so that anyone who looked upon them would perish from fright. Once the serpents stood upright, no one would be able to stand against them. She created eleven monsters in all: the viper, the dragon, the sphinx, the great lion, the mad dog, the scorpion-man, three might storm demons, the dragonfly, and the centaur."

[Baalz]

The internet said:
"In Babylonian myths, Tiamat is a huge, bloated female dragon that personifies the saltwater ocean, the water of Chaos. She is also the primordial mother of all that exists, including the gods themselves. Her consort is Apsu, the personification of the freshwater abyss that lies beneath the Earth. From their union, saltwater with freshwater, the first pair of gods were born. They are Lachmu and Lachamu, parents of Ansar and Kisar, grandparents of Anu and Ea.

In the creation epic Enuma elish, written around 2000 BCE, their descendants started to irritate Tiamat and Apsu so they decided to kill their offspring. Ea discovered their plans and he managed to kill Apsu while the latter was asleep. Tiamat flew into a rage when she learned about Apsu's death and wanted to avenge her husband. She created an army of monstrous creatures, which was to be led by her new consort Kingu, who is also her son. Eventually, Tiamat was defeated by the young god Marduk, who was born in the deep freshwater sea. "




I was thinking along the lines of wrathful seas that Tiamat is the logical angle to extend MA Oceana thematically, being the goddess of chaos and saltwater and already referenced in the game. Probably too powerful to be directly summoned, but she's also famous for creating a hoard of monsters.


The internet said:
"Meanwhile, Tiamat created monster serpents as her invincible weapons. She filled their bodies with venom instead of blood and gave them sharp teeth and long fangs. She fashioned terrifying dragons and crowned them with halos like the gods, so that anyone who looked upon them would perish from fright. Once the serpents stood upright, no one would be able to stand against them. She created eleven monsters in all: the viper, the dragon, the sphinx, the great lion, the mad dog, the scorpion-man, three might storm demons, the dragonfly, and the centaur."

[Tifone]

Well she could maybe be a well-fitting national Pretender http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif if the Raging Sea theme finds its way to the light of the sun

[sector24]

There are also more water nymphs that aren't currently in Dominions. Technically naiads are river nymphs, whereas nereids are sea nymphs, and oceanids are ocean nymphs. I'm not sure if they provide any gameplay benefits to Oceania and their plight, but perhaps they could provide path diversity but be relegated to water provinces and deep sea provinces respectively.

[Wrana]

Considering Tiamat - yes, she would be a fitting Pretender (or unique summon in any case)... but this wouldn't fix the general problem. Storm demons may be better - especially as there is no Air+Blood summonable commanders. But here we should also the way to summon them, i.e., Blood mages for Oceania to get (and it can't blood hunt uder the waves in any case).
Considering animals' low MR - at least Orcas could well have MR on par with humans - they are very clever guys! The same could go for Kraken mages... And corall-based monsters can have higher MR for being decentralized organisms with just no central brain/soul to affect with spells/mind blasts/dominations. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
About water nymphs - yes, there were a lot of them. We also shouldn't forget Nerejos himself - father of one kind of those - who was a shapeshifter and almost could wrestle Heracles to stalemate. And Achilles himself was a sone of one of water nymphs! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif So it seems we can have an opportunity to include some real thugs here...

[Baalz]

Nah, there are several demons in the game who are summoned with gems rather than blood slaves (mostly national summons). A sea storm demon would make sense to be summoned with W/A, and wouldn't necessarily need to be a commander.

Orca aren't any significant amount smarter than elephants, kinda breaks the paradigm to give them higher MR. Doesn't mean it couldn't be cool, how about a remote attack spell like call of the wild? I don't see orca being frontline soldiers going toe to toe with heavily armed armies in any case, but perhaps stealthy raiders.


Haha, I think I've talked myself into doing a mod nation. Lets see if I can figure out this modding stuff.

[Cor2]

I have just one word:
JELLYFISH!

[Xietor]

Many good ideas, but it is laughable that Oceania should get crocs, when MA Ctis does not even have Gators in its swamps.

Swamps are loaded with gators, Oceans are not inudated with crocs.

I see no reason that Oceania has to lose magic when their mages leave the water. Maybe gain air, and lose water. But they really cannot afford to have their mages just get weaker.

One thing Baalz did not do in Kingmaker, to my knowledge, is take a bless with his sacred troops. Maybe the knights can be tweaked to make them a better bless troop.

That may be the easiest fix of all. make the sacreds a bit better, and have their mages gain air, and lose water, rather than just lose magic on land.

[Itchykobu]

Hi, new to game so I haven't played Oceania yet....but do they have any good siege units? First thing this topic made me think of was big narwhal-like beasts that would employ their drill-like horns to get a siege bonus.

[Cor2]

oooh a narwhale I like those... good idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Endoperez]

Narwhal that become unicorns when they land?


The horns don't work like drills, though. They're more like lances or something.

[HoneyBadger]

Jellyfish would be great-This reminds me of Man-O-Wars. Those things are just terrifying, even if they aren't really jellyfish.

And how about manta rays? They did for poor Steve Irwin, afterall. There's a vampiric version of them in D&D too, but the name is more or less unpronounceable, so maybe they could come in regular and undead varieties. Maybe they could be ocean flyers?

I've been wanting to mod in a nation that used undead Aboleths, huge size 6 trampling sea urchins, and giant immobile cone snail that shoot a poisoned harpoon at it's enemies, functioning like an underwater ballista, but so far haven't had the chance. Maybe if I can find my notes, I'll do a write up for it, like Partha. It's basically an underwater MA Aboleth nation that's based on the Mamluk Egyptian (pre 7th cruisade, 1249 ad.) Sultanate.

[Wrana]

To HoneyBadger:
Surely bring it out! Sea urchins and snails particularly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And jellyfish should be present, certainly. English name slipped me earlier, but they and coralls should make a long way toward making Oceania feared! Also, while jellyfish would probably remain aquatic only, coralls can be amphibious... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Hey, there IS a possibility of making something like the said Man-o-War which is floating in the air, baloon-like. It can be filled with something like hydrogene or methane and so explode when dying. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Manta Rays I think not particularly impressive (they surely ARE, from cosmetic point of view, but that's it). Except this could allow to include electrical one... however, there are other electricity-producing fishes.
" Xietor: Swamps are loaded with gators, Oceans are not inudated with crocs."
While I agree that for C'tis, etc. not having gators is a glaring oversight http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif there ARE at least couple of species of ocean-going crocs. The Indian gavial (iir spelling c) isn't very impressive with its dolphin-style beak, but Pacific one is the biggest croc on Earth, reaching up to 10 meters!
To Baalz: Orcas having bad time against armored troops?! You are joking! These guys have up to 6-10 meters length iirc and VERY impressive teeth! Raiding they would perform admirably, too, though. Maybe spermacete whale of Moby Dick kind could be added if you want something STILL more impressive. I don't remember whether it's possible to include supersonic attack for him, but what the hell...

[Reverend Zombie]

Wrana said:

While I agree that for C'tis, etc. not having gators is a glaring oversight http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif there ARE at least couple of species of ocean-going crocs. The Indian gavial (iir spelling c) isn't very impressive with its dolphin-style beak, but Pacific one is the biggest croc on Earth, reaching up to 10 meters!




C'tis should have crocs, not gators.

[HoneyBadger]

Mantas not impressive? As I mentioned, one of them killed the man who used to *toy with crocodiles!* on national television! Not to mention, snakes with venom so very deadly that a single drop can kill you before your next heartbeat. They're close relatives of sharks, and while they may not be the most aggressive animals in the world, they obviously aren't much into cuddling, or showbusiness. And if you've ever read 'The Black Pearl', you'll note their nickname, "El Diablo".

[Wrana]

Snakes are completely other question, though I agree that sea ones have more potent venom than land-dwelling ones. But let's not digress. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
No, I didn't read "The Black Pearl". Nor probably intend to. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif And I'm not much impressed with anything someone might do on national TV. Expecially at our age of sofisticated montaging. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif And that setting aside the fact that most crocodiles aren't very agressive either - they simply don't need as much to eat as mammal carnivores, being cold-blooded as they are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif (Actually, term "agression" is somewhat misplaced here, but that will also lead us far to the side...) And in showbusiness mantas are actually well established afaik - they are quite the looks with their mode of movement, after all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But this doesn't make them dangerous for those who leave them alone (this will include not to step of them! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ). They are slow-moving, for one thing, and their teeth are quite unsuitable for large prey. As for close relations - well, donkey is quite close relative of rhinoceros, and this doesn't make him killer! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[HoneyBadger]

All of that may or may not have some sort of basis in fact, Wrana, but absolutely none of it matters, seeing as how the manta would only be serving the purpose of inspiration.

And The Black Pearl was a very good book, especially considering it was written for young adults 40 years ago.

[Kristoffer O]

You mean manatee I suppose http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[quantum_mechani]

Kristoffer O said:
You mean manatee I suppose http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I love manatees! .... don't they look suspiciously like aquatic bog beasts? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Kristoffer O]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Sombre]

I hereby fully endorse manatees!

We need manatees for MA Oceania!

[chrispedersen]

Baalz,
Just as a comment: In the glory game, the oceania player cast burden of time - which was enormously effective strategy. So, whereas I formally empathized with the oceania position, I now see several new angles to play the race.

Twas a brilliant strategy, actually - all his units recuperate naturally.

[johnarryn]

Certainly an interesting strategy on Oceania's part... as far as I know, they don't have national access to death, however, so they will pretty much have to take it on their pretender. Further, Burden of Time does have that nasty side effect of making everyone want to kill you.

I don't really think being able to cast BoT relatively unaffected if your pretender has fairly strong death magic in any way minimizes some of the other weaknesses Oceania has.

[Wrana]

All of that may or may not have some sort of basis in fact, Wrana, but absolutely none of it matters, seeing as how the manta would only be serving the purpose of inspiration.


This has no "basis" - it's just a fact! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif And inspiration is only a matter of point of view. Manta rays do not inspire me. Crocodiles are - and I particularly dislike anyone who was, as you say "toying with" them. Though they had graciously chosen to forgive him... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif And jellyfish would be both stylish and effective. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
And I love to read old books - but they aren't always accurate... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif And the fish often called "the sea devil" is actually one of deep-sea ones: deep-sea angler or monkfish are English names, I believe. They look quite scary, but can't be effective troops in the game also. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

I like the idea of Charybis (wandering whirlpool). Kindof like a water version of Eater of the Dead.

Global Warming spell?
All shore provinces become susceptable to hurricanes, flooding of inland water provinces, global food supplies go down, and maybe temperature shifts? National spell? global spell?

Riotous Reefs
Blocks all ship traffic. Seagoing Nations are docked, Mercs, equipment, etc. Also increases food supplies in water provinces.

Holy Water
Gives water a semi-blessing vs undead.
Not sure if this should be a global, national, or province or battlefield. The effect could be instant and major damage or something along the line of the thing in the game that keeps telling you that your undead units in a certain province have taken damage.

Coral Castle
Like the one creating the kelp castle but stronger

Humidity
(better name needed). Improves the abilities of amphibious while on land. Global? National? Battlefield?

Grindylows
These water demons were first mentioned in British folktales in the county of Yorkshire. Parents told their children stories of grindylows to prevent them from getting in the cold water in the area. Grindylows supposedly had long fingers that would drag children into the deep.
Lowers population in coastal provinces? Could be Oceanias initial action to less the power of nations keeping it from getting onto shore.

[Wrana]

I like the idea of Charybis (wandering whirlpool). Kindof like a water version of Eater of the Dead.


Iirc it wasn't very wandering. But it could be good in any case.

Global Warming spell?
All shore provinces become susceptable to hurricanes, flooding of inland water provinces, global food supplies go down, and maybe temperature shifts? National spell? global spell?


I would think it global by definition.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif And probably national as well - it's not in style of most other nations...

Riotous Reefs
Blocks all ship traffic. Seagoing Nations are docked, Mercs, equipment, etc. Also increases food supplies in water provinces.


I quite like corall-based ideas, but are you sure it can be accomplished (especially as mod)?

Holy Water
Gives water a semi-blessing vs undead.
Not sure if this should be a global, national, or province or battlefield. The effect could be instant and major damage or something along the line of the thing in the game that keeps telling you that your undead units in a certain province have taken damage.


There are some similar effects. Global could be like an existing Purgatory, for example... Defense against undead could be especially good for Oceania as thay are the most common way to enter seas for other nations. On the other hand, Oceania's theme is different from Marignon - undead-burning holy water is probably more for Inquisition theme...

Coral Castle
Like the one creating the kelp castle but stronger


Yes, corals able to build something on land are quite popular in SF - and it's thematic. I would include maybe some other variations on this theme - monsters enhancing PD or just generic monsters (not necessarily immovable, though generally so), coral houses built which allow either to increase population growth or income/resources, etc., etc.

Humidity
(better name needed). Improves the abilities of amphibious while on land. Global? National? Battlefield?


I think it's more of battlefield one. Global rise in humidity should have many other effects so it should in any case be high-level game-winner costing a lot...

Grindylows
These water demons were first mentioned in British folktales in the county of Yorkshire. Parents told their children stories of grindylows to prevent them from getting in the cold water in the area. Grindylows supposedly had long fingers that would drag children into the deep.
Lowers population in coastal provinces? Could be Oceanias initial action to less the power of nations keeping it from getting onto shore.


Don't understand this one. I think it would probably cause land nation to scrap something together to beat you up, rather than have them evacuate coastal provinces... And Water spells causing harmful events already exist... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Tifone]

Well for the "Storm on the Sea" subtheme, or "Raging Ocean" or whatever you want to call it, I agree with Wrana that some "pack of jellyfishes" summon (a simple one, with a couple of poisoning attacks) and a manta (maybe not a real one, but what about a BIG one? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) would be imaginative and inspiring http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[chrispedersen]

Why not give oceania's top mage a 'forge' bonus toward casting hurricane, rain of toads,

Or, give each mage a different forge bonus.

Lastly, why not give them a "part water" command, which would give them sailing. This should allow them to "skip" the first water terrain, allowing them to strat move 2.

That should be all the change they need to ... rock.

[HoneyBadger]

My point, Wrana, is that this is about suggestions for a game based on mythology and imagination, so whether or not rays are the vicous scourge of the ocean, or nature's equivalent of the Care Bear, doesn't really have any bearing on the conversation. They look cool. They could potentially kill a man-(and so could a donkey! Ever heard the expression, "kicks like a mule"? That's because those animals tend to kick people, and the people kicked have a habit of dying) That's all that's required of them.

To give you an example of how it works: An ostrich is a potentially more vicious and dangerous animal than a tarantula, but you don't see Machaka riding around on gigantic ostriches, do you?

[Gandalf Parker]

Deer kill more people in the US than bears, sharks, and rattlesnakes combined

[thejeff]

That's just cause there are more deer.

And the deer rarely come out of it well...

[HoneyBadger]

They're not deer, they're moose in disguise!

[Chris_Byler]

Gandalf Parker said:
I like the idea of Charybis (wandering whirlpool). Kindof like a water version of Eater of the Dead.

Global Warming spell?
All shore provinces become susceptable to hurricanes, flooding of inland water provinces, global food supplies go down, and maybe temperature shifts? National spell? global spell?


Wrath of the Sea (or for literal warming, Second Sun, but that's a fire spell for obvious reasons).


Riotous Reefs
Blocks all ship traffic. Seagoing Nations are docked, Mercs, equipment, etc. Also increases food supplies in water provinces.


Partially duplicates Sea of Ice.


Holy Water
Gives water a semi-blessing vs undead.
Not sure if this should be a global, national, or province or battlefield. The effect could be instant and major damage or something along the line of the thing in the game that keeps telling you that your undead units in a certain province have taken damage.


As a battlefield spell, it duplicates Cleansing Water; as a global it's a weaker version of Purgatory.


Coral Castle
Like the one creating the kelp castle but stronger


Why not just improve the kelp castle? For that matter, why does it matter how strong the castle is? It's not like most nations are going to try to challenge Oceania in the water unless they already have a massively superior position. Their major problem is being over-nerfed on land.


Humidity
(better name needed). Improves the abilities of amphibious while on land. Global? National? Battlefield?


What would be even better would be a reverse Thetis Blessing - allowing aquatic units to walk on land, and Oceanians to not transform to their weaker land forms. But either way, it'd probably be too high in the research tree to help at the stage of the game where you really need it. Awesome endgame spell for sea nations in general, though.


Grindylows
These water demons were first mentioned in British folktales in the county of Yorkshire. Parents told their children stories of grindylows to prevent them from getting in the cold water in the area. Grindylows supposedly had long fingers that would drag children into the deep.
Lowers population in coastal provinces? Could be Oceanias initial action to less the power of nations keeping it from getting onto shore.


Sounds more like a unit than a spell - as an enchantment it would duplicate Lure of the Deep anyway.

Part of the problem here is that many of the powerful world-altering water spells have very high research requirements and therefore don't help Oceania when it most needs it: at the time when they have finished taking over all or almost all seas reachable from their start location, but now need to expand onto land to compete with the land nations. You just don't have access to Thau 7 or Ench 8 spells in the midgame (it wouldn't be the midgame if you did).


I think the biggest help would be to make many of their national units/mages less useless on land. Losing some water power to gain another path (air for sirens, nature or earth for capricorns, etc.) is reasonable - losing *all* paths and gaining *nothing* is horribly crippling. Basalt kings and starspawns don't have to put up with that crap - which is a large part of why *those* nations can put up quite a decent fight on dry land.

When MA Oceania's units come out of the water they have to face MA military technology: longbows, crossbows, pikes, lances. They're just not up to it.

Maybe a smaller version of the Asp Turtle, that they could group-summon (like wolves, tigers, etc., and at a similar research level) - something like an amphibious cave drake, statwise. Turtles are slow, and without the Asp Turtle's trample they wouldn't have much firepower, but if their shells acted like natural shields against missiles, they could provide some cover against the ranged weapons so common on land, and at least let your other units get into hand-to-fin combat.

Another possibility would be making sea serpents amphibious (like asp turtle, they could only be summoned in the sea, but then could go on land). They're just big snakes, so why shouldn't they be able to slither up on land like other snakes... Sea serpents are scary, poisonous and low research, they'd be a very nasty addition to any sea nation's land army, if you could.

Asp turtles themselves are quite cool, but too high research to help at the crucial time.

All amphibious/poor amphibious summons should be castable underwater unless there's a *really* good reason why they aren't. The fact that this isn't already true is particularly annoying when your mages get weaker on land.

Since the quickness nerf, water mages aren't as useful on the battlefield as they used to be. Maybe other water spells could be re-examined in light of that fact? A water mage on land will never have access to a booster spell like Summon Earthpower or Phoenix Power - you can't bring the right conditions with you via item like Air can.

[JimMorrison]

Amphibious Sea Serpents ++

A global that allows all aquatics onto land ++

[HoneyBadger]

JimMorrison: That global isn't a bad idea. There's something a bit fatalistic towards the oceanic nations about a late game spell that allows all the land units to go into the water, but not the reverse.

[Tifone]

Yep, mainly because Thetis' Blessing is mainly castable by underwater units, as they have tons of water gems, but those are the nations that really DON'T want, in the vast majority of the cases, to find in their peaceful seas hordes of knights and elephants http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Wrana]

HoneyBadger:
To give you an example of how it works: An ostrich is a potentially more vicious and dangerous animal than a tarantula, but you don't see Machaka riding around on gigantic ostriches, do you?


Which is really a pity. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif But I keep hoping for EA or LA! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Amphibious Sea Serpents ++


Agree. And turtles, too. Though, as it was already seen, "it's just a weaker Cave Drake".
Also, I think that the fact that Atlantians don't lose paths when they crawl on land, while Oceanians do, was meant to be - the Oceania was initially pictured as "the most water of water nations". I don't really know whether they are actually stronger in water than, say, Atlantis of the same era, but it looks like that was initial concept. Maybe it would be better to work around it (with summons, e.g.) than drop it outright. Another possibility could be some transformation-type spell which would preclude Capricorns, etc. losing paths - or change these...

[rdonj]

I've seen reverse Thetis' Blessings talked about a lot on these forums, but I don't really get the feeling that it's ever likely to be added. Especially since people really want a version you could cast relatively early.

What if, as an alternative, we got something like:
Flood. Floods a province for 1+x turns, allowing aquatic creatures to enter the province and gives poor amphibian modifiers to non-amphibious creatures. Costs 5w, pay one extra water gem per turn to make it last longer.


It wouldn't be nearly as powerful as a reverse thetis' blessing so it could be castable fairly early, probably by a mage with no more than 3 water... evocation 4/5?

[Wrana]

Would be good, but I get a hunch that it's impossible to mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Tifone]

Mmh, this seemed me nice at a first glance, but surely I have some problems to conceptualize it... is it supposed to give all water units "amphibious" trait because they can breath here and there? or what?

[Endoperez]

It's easier to conceptualize as a global than as an item that only affects few troops. Water-breathing pills or a Manual of Water-Breathing? Fine. Amulet of the Fish -type "I'm in a bubble of water"? Hard to do on an army scale, except if you just flood and everyone non-amphibian gets Sailors' Death'ed.

As a global, though... just change the rules. All battlefields everywhere are affected by a Mist effect, because the very air is changed.

I really like the global idea. The only thing I'm not sure about is if Thetis' Blessing should work both ways, or if there should be a new global for underwater-to-land effect.

[Sombre]

I think Thetis' blessing should work both ways. That way if EA Rlyeh or EA Oceania wants to clamber up onto land using it they at least have to expose themselves to counterattack automatically.

[Tifone]

Now that idea of you seems to me the nicest Sombre. A Thetis' Blessing which becomes something you must consider very well before doing both as an underwater nation than as a land nation, because it can make you attack the enemy easily but even be counterattacked on your own territory! And it seems very fitting the Dominions 3 "magic mood", as many spells of this game affect everybody, empowering the enemy too, or damaging you too, and as side effects that must be considered carefully. Nice nice nice idea imho!!

P.S. In effect, the actual Thetis' Blessing as well as a reverse version seem a little too cheap and easy to me. But a version that has both the effects is so strategically interesting I can't find words for it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Chris_Byler]

Actually USING Thetis Blessing (normal, the proposed reverse version, or the proposed 2-way version) makes you horribly vulnerable to having it dispelled, because whole armies of units (and possibly SCs too) drown/suffocate.

So that alone isn't going to solve the problems of water nations unable to compete on land (of which we seem to agree MA Oceania is the biggest example), especially given the high research requirement, and the fact that being a water nation doesn't necessarily give you tons of water gems to protect it from dispel.


A weaker cave drake that you could summon in your secure underwater labs and *then* take up on land would be a useful alternative to ice drakes that you need to capture a land lab (and put your mages in it) *before* summoning, and even then they're largely useless against a variety of cold-resistant races and units. (If it's weaker than a cave drake presumably it would also be cheaper.) Amphibious sea serpents would have the same benefit - the summoners can stay in the safety of the water, while someone else leads the beasts onto land, and unlike much of your battle magic, they don't rely on cold to be effective.

Since most maps are mostly land, a nation that is severely disadvantaged on land is doomed, even if they have a secure powerbase in the water. (If their land disadvantage is that bad, any non-coastal province is equally secure against them.)

[Wrana]

Agree to Chris_Byler: summons/transforms are probably better. Sea snakes are excellent example. Considering turtles - I believe just the name of snapping-turtle is worth it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif And crocodiles. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif Considering hyppopotams - I remembered them initially because the name means "sea horse" in Greek, so they can be freely hybridized with denisens of ancient bestiaries... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
As for mantas - now I think that I see where they can be placed - they can be a theme of sadly absent LA Oceania!
By the way, spells which actually changed terrain type were among my favorites in old Master of Magic, but I'm almost sure that they can't be implemented under current engine. Which is a pity - gods and god-like magicians should have an ability to move or raise mountains... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Tifone]

it is "river horse" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[HoneyBadger]

Do any current ocean units have Stealth? Because there's a whole lot of really weird deep-sea creatures that have remarkable stealth adaptations.

[Wrana]

Thanks, Tifone. My Greek is somewhat mishmash, I know. But the idea stands. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
To HoneyBadger: unfortunately no, iirc. Except maybe some Bogarus summons. I agree that such should be present and can add much versatility to Oceania. Actually, even well-known octopuses have pretty effective camouflage system... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Tifone]

Actually I've seen octopuses on tv and even in real life a couple of times scuba diving. They *instantly* change their colour according to the surface they're over, even when they're swimming at fast speed on different coloured surfaces, it's just amazing and very beautiful O.O

[HoneyBadger]

Ancient Kraken with stealth...now that would be a lot of fun.

[HoneyBadger]

How about a swarm of tiny, fast piranha for in-combat only, that only do 1 point of damage each, like underwater versions of Dragonflies.

[HoneyBadger]

Water elementals probably should gain a Stealth form as a water shape. There could also be more powerful creatures/summons that strictly come from mythology, such as Marids, river demons, and sea hags, that would be easy for the ocean-based nations to cast.

Since we're now also discussing spells, as well as units, maybe a set of spells could be created that are generic only to underwater nations, and inaccessible to others?

[Endoperez]

Also, Marids aren't linked to the sea. They were neutral regrading that, like Djinn, but were later (perhaps for D&D?) linked into water, probably because latin mare=sea.

Dr Praetorious tought me that, and to also read Wikipedia discussion pages.

[Wrana]

And yes, a set of spells unaccessible to other nations could surely be made. And I at least think that summons. etc., discussed in this thread are planned as such. However, iirc, spell can currently be restricted (by mod commands) to 3 nations only - so if you want to make it "underwater nations only" you should probably make 2-3 spells with varying names...

[Endoperez]

They can have the same name, even. Some vanilla spells already do that. Spells like Sloth of Bears, for example, which Ulm and Jotunheim of all or most ages have, IIRC. Or then it was Pack of Wolves and Vanheim/Jotunheim of most ages.

[Chris_Byler]

Actually, I think some of them might as well be made EA/MA Oceania only - Atlantis and R'lyeh don't seem to need the help, or at least, not as much. And it might be more thematic for them to have different ways of crawling up on land than Oceania does, anyway.

Changing Sea Serpents to amphibious wouldn't require changing the spell at all, only the monster.

[Aezeal]

Or a new Wyrm monster.. like the pretender but weaker as a medium level summons?

[HoneyBadger]

You and DrPraetorius are both absolutely correct, Endoperez. The meaning of the word 'Marid' in Arabic is debatable, I've seen where it means bad, disease, sickness, poison, etc. Or 'giant'. Or 'rebellion' (from the Arabic word 'Maradah', apparently). Or it can just be somebody's first name (I've seen this twice so far). Apparently, it's hard to define. What I do agree with is that Marids are associated with water because of the 'Mar' (mer) part of their name being the Latin word for 'Ocean'

But, all that said, I've always liked the D&D version of Marid. And I don't believe we have any in the game. Also, I was trying to think of some powerful summons of more mythological, and less fishy, origins. I'm all for going with the mythically correct though, when it comes to Dom3.

[Wrana]

Considering more mythological I would sooner look at some Chinese/Japanese dragons. Though they would probably look better in nations completely based on these mythologies. Oceania is mostly based on Greek mythology and classicistic art, after all. Though here we have the possibility to include more kinds of Nymphs and their relatives (Nereios the shapechanger comes to mind...), also dolphins (and Orcas already mentioned), plus Triton shell chariots (though these maybe would look more appropriate for EA?) and some other things. For one, I would add triton shell-blowers which would act as standarts (with possible additional effects of causing fear?).
Considering Marids - I would prefer to see them in separate nation. Though to be fair, I saw mentionings of Jihn being able to swim or appearing from sea. But this, I think, would be more indication of their general power rather than specific affinity to seas...
By the way, this discussion begins to repeat itself. Maybe we should begin to take some tasks each and work on it? Namely aiming for mod which would make Oceania competitive without becoming too strong? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I can try to make Triton Chariots and shell-blowers, for example...

[HoneyBadger]

Not a bad idea, I could probably knock out some weird fish art, even on my work computer.

[Tifone]

I would try to summarize what this "suggestions thread" has proposed at the present time.

Incipit:
MA Oceania would probably benefit thematically and in nation strenght from a slight improvement, hopefully towards an appealing "raging sea/storm" subtheme (tnx Baalz).

Valid proposals:

- More sea summons: giving the oceans a wider amount of natural, wild creatures to summons, like the land nations get. Just some things from a list including Orcas, jellyfishes, manta rays, a sea serpent, amphibious sea turtles (for an high protection longbows-crossbows counter to start conquering the land), swordfishes, narwales, barracudas, manatees (?)...
- 1/2 recruitable (coral?) chariot(s) lead by dolphins/ hyppocamps for an underwater shock force. (Spendios)
- Ichtycentaurs to become a good (possibly better on land than on sea) amphibious unit. (cleveland)
- Shell blower: this could be a national summon (as recruitables would be probably unbalanced) which acts as standard and can cast panic 1 or 2 times before going melee. (Wrana)
- Selkies. Those are the main piece of the raging sea/storm subtheme suggestions, as they would provide the "storm" (A/W strong mages) factor we're looking for http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif (Baalz)

Somehow discarded suggestions + explanation:

- Scylla: it is already in game as the (lovely) Drakaina pretender
- Hyppos and crocodiles: Nice, but they live in swamps, so they better fit C'tis or the other "swamp-nations"
- Piranhas: nice suggestion but they live in rivers, not oceans
- Ammonites: I think everybody agreed they fit more as a death/water summon, nice but a little far from the air/water suggested subtheme.

General, IHMO quite nice, suggestion from different people:
- Thetis' Blessing working both ways: so strategically interesting i wouldn't bore anybody talking about it
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Peace

[HoneyBadger]

That bit about sea turtles gives me an idea-how about a giant sea turtle with a ballista built onto/into it's back? Since ballistas would probably be pretty effective in the water.

[Tifone]

Mmh nice, but goes against the assumption that in Dominions 3 there aren't battlefield siege-weapons (I know ballista isn't exactly a siege weapon, but you know what I mean)... or there should be even the normal ballistas for land armies and so why not catapults throwing flying shards? And catapults throwing cows? And trebutchets? And trebutches throwing Greek fire? And trebutches throwing zombies for LA Ermor? And we don't finish anymore ^^

I was really gonna say this was nice and thematic, HoneyBadger, believe me, but this logical flaw came to my mind so... dunno http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Wrana]

A turtle with ballista I would also think more of LA unit. Just snapper or something like old AD&D Dragon Turtle which breathed heated steam may be more... eh, on equal footing with all else.
There was also a thought about some "storm-demons" (summons, units or commanders), but I'm not very sure where we should steal them from. :embarassed:

[Tifone]

Yeah there was that one but I thought it has not been developed. How should they be different from the /actually existing/ storm demons? And aren't demons mostly blood summons? Maybe some big Storm Triton or such would be more fitting, even if we've plenty of tritons...

[HoneyBadger]

Well, there is that, but the flaw in that line of logic for me, is that there really should be some more seige engines available, possibly as Construction summons. Especially since we already have the ever popular chariots for many different nations.

I can see where large seige engines might be out of bounds though, but not small mobile ones, that would have tactical advantages. These have already been added to mods (Rhinox in Sombre's excellent Warhammer Ogres), so it's certainly not unestablished as a practice.

Also, I'd be very doubtful of any seige engine in the Dom3 universe that would be capable of performing as well as magic. Atleast better than a very low power spell like Flying Shards. In which case, for balance purposes, it should really be there to fill a gap in that nation's power structure, and wouldn't be as versatile, and probably cost a lot more resources than, a mage, to be feasable.

But that really can be an issue for a separate thread, and doesn't necessarily need to be dealt with here.

[HoneyBadger]

Maybe icthys mounted on giant snapping turtles? Crocs could probably serve as pretty good mounts too.

[JimMorrison]

Tifone said:
Yeah there was that one but I thought it has not been developed. How should they be different from the /actually existing/ storm demons? And aren't demons mostly blood summons? Maybe some big Storm Triton or such would be more fitting, even if we've plenty of tritons...



Unfortunately, "Demon" is a very subjective and wide reaching concept, that has in terms of game mechanics, been narrowed to a specific meaning.

There are a couple of nations who have demons summonable outside of blood, but I would think that for Oceania, you aren't even looking for "demons", per se. Something like Storm Nymphs or something, playful chaotic spirits who inhabit large bodies of water - who have little concern for mortal life, and who delight in causing mayhem more than harm, but don't really see a moral dilemna in people dying because they've gone and sunk another ship - it was too much fun to care. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Obviously aside from just not being demons, they'd also be different from the actual demons in weapon selection. They should have a Water Strike ability probably, and perhaps have a single target Sailors' Death ability for out of water. I'm not married to those spells, just throwing them out there to get the ball rolling. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[HoneyBadger]

Yeah, the demon tag just means a non-undead unit that's adversely affected by holy spells. My Partha mod will include "demons" that are just humans of the "untouchable" class (and thanks to JimMorrison for that inspiration http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ).

[HoneyBadger]

Here's a first draft of a manta unit, for your (possible?) viewing pleasure:

I'd happily add it as an image, directly to the thread, but I'm not quite sure how to go about doing that.

[HoneyBadger]

Here's the attack image for the manta unit.

[TheMenacer]

There should totally just be island sized giant turtles, not that I have any idea how one would fit something like that on the battlefield considering that giants are about as big as it gets, but various landmass-sized sea creatures are represented pretty consistantly throughout history, so it's time they showed up in some capacity.

[Tifone]

Asp turtles are supposed to be exactly so TheManacer, as even their description states. I wouldn't over-complicate the life of modders-developers with things alredy in-game, even if not in the exact flavour we would prefer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Peace

[Wrana]

And here are some preliminaries on Triton Chariot and shell-blowers (the latter have no picture right now and the former picture isn't particularly good right now... still, it's the start. And if someone has ideas how to move dolphins in attack sprite, they'll be appreciated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).

[HoneyBadger]

There should definitely be giant sea scorpions.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/11/071121-giant-scorpion.html

[Wrana]

Yes, I remember them, but am not sure that they would be thematic for Oceania (and these, by the way, could be used as animated carcasses, unlike ammonites!)

[Tifone]

i'd prefer too other more tipically "seaish" animals to be implemented rather than scorpions ^^ we already have many.

Peace http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[HoneyBadger]

Well, maybe not specifically Oceania, but they'd make great underwater independents-undead or not.

I'm definitely all for a larger prehistoric presence in the game.

[Herode]

Tifone said:
i'd prefer too other more tipically "seaish" animals to be implemented rather than scorpions ^^ we already have many.

Peace http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Yes ! Crabs ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[HoneyBadger]

Um sea scorpions, by the way, are "seaish" animals.

Note the use of the word *sea* in their name.

They're not even related to land scorpions, infact.

[Tifone]

K, k, I was just saying before that, if I must choose between a sea scorpion whatsoever and an orca or narwhale or manta to be implemented, I prefer the big fishies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Darkwind]

Since consensus seems to be that Oceania's theme is "the ocean fights back", I'm just thinking, why would the ocean only fight back with the cooler and stronger, but less numerous, creatures? Why not give Oceania easy access to a ritual to summon large amounts of your average amphibious sea creature, like a sea dog, as well? Perhaps an aquatic-only version of Summon Animals that summons a few less, but more powerful, units (like Monster Fish), too?

[HoneyBadger]

I want more "fishy" types too, Tifone, but I'm a fan of prehistoric fish monsters, and I'd like to see more of them in the game-and the sea scorpion was one of the more interesting types.

[JimMorrison]

I think the problem with focusing too much on "fishes", is that there was also some hope to bring a little more amphibious muscle to the nation, so the ocean is fighting back, not just defending itself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Tifone]

We r not focusing too much ^^ There were plenty of suggestions and idea how we would like Oceania able to fight back - look at my "summarizing" post http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Some fishes were just suggested by many ppl for flavour reasons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

(plus, don't forget that there r other water nations which will be also attacked by those fishes, as they will provide a good firepo... ehm waterpower http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )

[JimMorrison]

Oh I don't disagree. But then again, Oceania was never considered to have any glaring weakness underwater, the balancing issue was with their relative inability to wage a successful campaign moving onto land.

I'm not saying I am against Orca or Narwhal or other fun aquatics, just all flavor won't improve the current situation - we need function as well as form. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[TheMenacer]

You know what'd be cool? A coral monster that freespawns freaky stinging polyp creatures, as well as occasionally spawning a similar creature that #secondform's into the original coral monster that freespawns more polyps, eventually choking the sea.

As for amphibious creatures that can fight on land for them, how about these guys? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103559/

[JimMorrison]

Wait wait wait..... your idea for new units is.....

Henry Winkler and Hank Azaria?!? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[HoneyBadger]

Well, the Fonz *was* known for jumping the shark...

[TheMenacer]

And Hank Azaria is well known for having gills...

[JimMorrison]

This whole line of reasoning sounds a bit fishy to me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[HoneyBadger]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilosaurus

Here, you fish lovers!

I'd hate to be scuba diving and run into one of these.

[Tifone]

Oh, and next summer choose the mountain ^

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[HoneyBadger]

Here's a great link for TheMenacer, and anyone else interested in old woodcut monsters:


http://www.strangescience.net/stsea2.htm

Contains tons of neat illustrations-all open source, because they're so old-depicting the natural world from the viewpoint of past centuries' scientists and naturalists.

[Wrana]

Basilosaurus is fine, but some Mesosoan creatures would probably be better still. And Plesiosaurus-kin is believed to be able to crawl on land, seal-like... ;)

[HoneyBadger]

Well...the largest mosasaur reached a length of 17.5 meters. That's pretty respectable. They would probably work fine in the game, as amphibious predators, since they looked something like streamlined monitor lizards.

Plesiosaurs ought to be in the game, if only that they're generally considered a "best guess" for the identity of the Loch Ness Monster. Generally speaking, the largest plesiosaur got (verifiably) 15+ meters long. Still respectable, but the fun part is that the BBC reported Liopleurodon Ferox as 25 meters in length and up to 150 tons. It most likely wasn't that big, but it gives enough precedence-as folklore-to give it a justified place in the game. Also, Plesiosaurs were much larger than T-Rex, and better adapted for powerful biting. According to my information, they could have picked up a modern car, and then bitten it clean in half.

Ichthyosaurs were a lot smaller, between 2-4 meters, but they're extremely interesting, as lizards that evolved to resemble fishes, almost exactly.

Their relative, Shonisaurus sikanniensis, is the largest ever discovered marine reptile, at a gargantuan 21 meters. That's 70 feet long!

[Wrana]

Agree, except on Tyrannosaurus point - most Plesiosauri had iirc quite small teeth, optimised for fish-catching, not biting clean through something large and/or armored. While Tyrannosaurus/Tarbosaurus had teeth very good for just such task. Of course, it was smaller - it's land carnivore, after all.
And I can repeat that if we go to mammals than Mobi Dick makes very fine Oceania summon/hero (!) indeed. :)

[HoneyBadger]

I suggested adding a grey whale to Haida Gwaii as a Pretender, but apparently, you can't have aquatic-only creatures on a land province. Although, now that I think about it...maybe a whale totem that had a waterform grey whale? You'd have to teleport it, ofcourse, but that would be a nice balance for an otherwise very powerful SC chassis.

[HoneyBadger]

I also don't know much about plesiosauri teeth, I'm just going based on what my few minutes' research is saying. So if you want to look into that and see what you come up with, I'd love to know more :)

And-for sea mammals-I think the Narwhal ought to find a place in the game, as should human/dolphin transformers-or just dolphins.

As an aside: If/when we get the ability to edit the first post in a given thread, I'm planning on presenting a middle-era Aboleths nation based on real-world Mamluk culture. Alongside it, I'll be offering a list of spells for EA Aboleth prehistoric marine creature national summons.

[Wrana]

I'll try to get some links - now I'm speaking from what I remember from University years and from visiting Moscow Paleontology Museum.
Narwhal - yes, absolutely. And as you could see, I tried to depict Triton Chariot as being pulled by dolphins. ;)
A Whale Totem is also good idea.
As for Aboleth/Mamluk nation, I would love to see it, even if I don't like Aboleths as such. Probably, if it's ready, you could just post it in Mods subforum? Speaking of which, maybe this thread should be also moved there? ;)

[HoneyBadger]

It's not ready, unfortunately, although I'll probably post the info, like I have with my others.

And if you move this nation to the Mods forum, it will get even less traffic, and be likely to disappear. Mods forums only get maybe a tenth the traffic the main forum does, sadly enough.

[Wrana]

Pity. But in any case I'm planning to add some more here during weekend. Though my art would be as hopeless as ever! :)

[HoneyBadger]

Sadly, I can't look at your triton chariot, since it would require me to download something, but I know I've gotten better, the more I've done, so I think it's likely you will too.

If all else fails, you can always modify an existing image-that can be a real time saver-and it's good enough for modding purposes.

[Wrana]

I use this time-honored trick, too. :) But dolphin images sadly aren't present in Dominions currently. ;)

[HoneyBadger]

no no, I mean you can go to Google, type in dolphin images, and it will give you a list of images on the web. Pretty useful. Then you can just copy the picture into a file, modify it with Paint, Image Forge, or a similar program (I miss my Image Forge), and you'll be all set. All of the prehistoric animals I presented in the Suggestions for New Cave Units thread were done in this way.

It works quite well for many subjects.

A similar trick is to find a picture of a miniature and copy that, then modify the picture like you would any other, in a graphics program.

Thirdly, their are literally thousands of free pixel images (sprites) in the Web, usually pretty high quality. Again, I wouldn't use even the free ones without modifying them somewhat, but they are available.

[Wrana]

Understand, though browsing through thousands of pages to find what is needed may be more tiring than making something myself, though it be horrible... ;)

[HoneyBadger]

Horrible or not, it'd still be yours, and still be appreciated-although believe me when I say that people *will* critique it, especially if you post it in the thread. That can be very educational/helpful, though. It was for me.

[HoneyBadger]

I'm probably going to redo the Ancient Kraken in the next week or so, as an Ammonite, with new stats...it'll give me a nice break from dragons. I don't want to get burned out on them.

[Wrana]

Yes, too much dragons could be harmful! ;)
By the way, what do you say about an idea of Triton Horn Blowers - namely, should they have some additional ability (fear attack, probably)?

[HoneyBadger]

Can you list their stats for me, here in the thread?

I would say they'd get some sort of banner (morale) bonus. I don't think fear...if anything, awe, but too many units with awe is like too many dragons.

I really hope the Devs will consider adding a "Loathe" (opposite of Awe) ability that causes units who attack a critter with it to risk going Berserk (0) for the rest of the battle, and be forced to attack only that unit-ignoring all others-until they or the unit with "Loathe" are dead, if they fail their save. It'd be a little different from anything we currently have in the game, and be strategically viable.

[Wrana]

I think I included them in one of previous posts, but in any case the stats are of good Triton/Merman warrior plus standart. I was thinking about giving them a missile weapon called something like "blow horn", which causes panic(?) in a small area with short range... Cost should be about 15 or maybe 20 in case of such attack added...