Our beloved Pretenders!

[Tifone]

Not another "favourites" thread!!! Or yes? Well, yes, but there is more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Ook, this has to be one of the oldest threads in the world http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

But as new players enter the game quite often, and the old ones have had chances to play intensively and maybe changed their previous ideas, I'd like to ask, just for the pleasure of talking together 'bout the game (and even a bit on the well-known assumption that devs read the forum so any of our coolest and most thematic suggestions could maybe be implemented some day http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ):

-Which are the Pretenders you like the most for their flavour (is there a particular reason?) ? Do you "identify" somehow in some Pretenders better than others (as they represent the player's will inside the game) ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

-Which are the Pretenders you like to use the most for magic diversity/ good SCs/ aptitude of blesses, the most regardless of the nation as possible?

-Do you think some Pretenders could use some thematic, and not excessively twisting and unbalancing, changes?

I save my answers for later times http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif if the thread is appreciated. Who starts? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Zeldor]

I like national pretenders. Unfortunately most of them really suck so I have to take smth else. But Risen Oracle for Agartha simply rulz!

[Sombre]

I loathe the standardised pretender picks like cyclops, gorgon, wyrm, prince of death etc and try to make use of national and unusual picks, but it's hard because in basegame they're so rubbish for the most part.

[Tifone]

OK my friends, so let's suggest something thematic and not excessively unbalancing to pimp them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Sombre]

I think making balance suggestions for CBM makes a lot more sense than making them for the basegame. Primarily because you might actually see a result :]

I'd far rather KO and JK spent their time on bugs and new features and things that we can't do through mods.

[Tifone]

Of course, of course. But I'm not talking about *balance* suggestions. I'm talking about some flavour suggestions that maybe KO may like.

And anyway the thread was not just about that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Tifone]

Like, for example, yesterday I was looking another time Mel Gibson's Apocalypto. I really like that movie, and looking at the scene of the sacrifices, I started thinking - Oh my, look at their Emperor's "head covering", it is as tall as him, all in sterling gold and with enormous coloured feathers, and maybe, IMHO, the sprite of the Mictlan's national pretender Smoking Mirror would be much more original and appealing with such an appeareance ^_^

And mainly for thematic reasons, I'd like that the horrendous monster pretenders like the Manticore and the Dagon, and expecially the Mother of Monsters, the Drakaina (a personal favourite for flavour), and the fearful Destroyer of Worlds might use some Fear +1 at least (some don't even have +0) - it seems sppropriate, and they would make much better SCs (as they don't have full slots) and it would be great as it's so damn funny to look at your enormous monsters eat for lunch 200 or 300 puny, scared militiamen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

These were just my examples. Of course those changes can all be implemented in a mod or maybe KO would like them and put them in the basegame, it's ok for me both ways, I'd just like partecipation and to talk about this for the fun it gives me (and even you all I think) to discuss about this wonderful game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

I like Lord of the Wild for Pangaea. The idea of wild party girls flocking to him is fun.

I like Lord of Night for Mictlan but its probably less thematic. I like the idea of a flying stealthy assassin titan.

I like the Great Druid when Im feeling more like "playing myself" as a pretender.

In a general way I like the Great Sage.

[Tifone]

Yay, the Lord of the Wild is great. But I always end up taking the Gorgon for Pangea as I really like her (not for reproductive reasons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif )... pity Pangea doesn't fit at all my playing style, I usually have much more fun massing troops and summons and go for a massive squishing of enemies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Sombre]

But I don't have any problem with them thematically, they're fine in that respect. That's why I use them. I'm just saying they're definitely worse than the standardised choices.

[Gandalf Parker]

IMHO the usual problem with national pretenders is that they ARE thematic. They match their nations too closely. They dont fill a need. Why should I take a god with nature magic and food bonuses for a nation already full of nature magic and food bonuses? And yet a nature based pretender does make sense.

I think the nationals will generally be loved by the daydreaming RPGers and loathed by the spreadsheet strategists. Both groups will just have to accept that some of the gods "suck". But as long as they seem to disagree on which gods suck, then it will be a feature and not a bug. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[thejeff]

Not sure I can agree with that.

If some pretenders are weak (expensive, not adding diversity, etc) but thematically cool, while others are cheap or strong but boring or unthematic, that's not a feature even if there's disagreement over which is the worse problem.

Better to come up with strong thematic gods for the nationals. And there are some. Gorgon is probably the most commonly used example. National pretenders should be special.

[Wrana]

Agree about national Pretenders. It's a pity that, say, Lawgiver for MA Mictlan is completely useless - it has recruitable Coatles which can do just antything he can. And he doesn't have a single special rule afair! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif
I like Divine Emperor for Pythium, though I didn't play this nation much lately. Void Lord for R'lyeh also. Master Lich is often both useful and thematic, and Ghost King can be thematic for most nations (though I would prefer the LA Arcoscephales to get their own special one - that of the "Great Conqueror" mentioned in their background)...

[DonCorazon]

I (and my battalions of sacred mages) are addicted to the reinvigorating feel of an earth bless and imagine the ruler of the universe should only need one eye.

[JimMorrison]

Well maybe this is a good subject for another attempted list. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Thematic pretenders that have more up front niche use - and some thematic special abilities for different pretender chassis that would provide different strategic possibilities. Are those moddable? Like the Gorgon's petrification (not saying more pretenders need that, just an example), can that be added to a custom modded pretender chassis?

It seems to me that more nation specific pretenders should be based around minor paths available to that nation, rather than based around their major path. Not that it's wrong to do Water magic pretenders for aquatic races, or Nature magic pretenders for Pangaea et al, but in some cases a people who are strong in one thing, and weak in another, could come across an ancient (or not so ancient) being who was vastly powerful in that weaker path, and become fascinated by it, because it can command powers that they barely comprehend.

Yes, there are usually options for whatever you think works, and you can justify any pretender choice through RP reasoning, but I am talking nation specific things that are out of the ordinary.

Here's my first good example, I won't do numbers, just lay out the basic idea - for Caelum, amidst ALL of their Air based pretender choices - the Glacial Prince, a huge self aware water elemental who was discovered in the high mountains. Heck, this guy could actually be considered Mindless like the Colossal Fetish, and ultimately he serves the Seraphs, but they worship him and believe him to be autonomous. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Zeldor]

I think it is just usability for sair race. But best example about national pretender usefulness is to compare Agarthan Risen Oracle and Shinu's immortal pretender. See what you get for your points. Orcale is just so great that it is hard to think about a situation when you don't want it. And you wouldn't touch Shinu's immortal SC with a stick.

[Wrana]

Well, actually I did touch it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif But probably won't do it again, in MP particularly. Especially after I've seen that they have a hero who is about the same, just weaker! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

DonCorazon :
and imagine the ruler of the universe should only need one eye.


Well, THAT problem my divisions of Wind Guided archers can surely fix! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/firedevil.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[DonCorazon]

Bah, 2 eyes are overrated. Those who lose one eye usually are about to lose the other (thanks to Cleveland for the lesson in the power of Eye Shields).

Anyway, being blind doesn't stop you from using 100 precision spells.

And as a side bonus it makes you immune to the effects of darkness. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Wrana]

Thank you for reminding about Eye Shields.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And so maybe you should use blind Pretender from the beginning? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Natpy]

I like Machaka`s national pretender Colossal Fetish. It can be very strong with additional magic.

[Gandalf Parker]

There is also a special eye-killing bow (crossbow?)

[cupido2]

I just love the blood well. Not that I think it's very useful (or that I ever really chose to play with it), but it's a well. With blood! And people worship it! Wuah! Awesome.
If I think of it I like all the immobile pretenders. Perhaps because they are so mysterious (that's why I don't like the description, that "a spirit is possessing" them. Why has some stray spirit to possess them? The obelisk, Sphinx, Sacred statue is just there and it was there since the beginning and doesn't need an explanation for its existence).
Alas I often choose a crone or sage as my pretender, because I love site searching that much and enjoy finding cool sites by searching mages/pretender (with the spells it just isn't the same).

[DonCorazon]

Vision's Foe. But the Black Bow of Botulf would be even worse and it hurts no matter how many eyes you have.

[Itchykobu]

Ancient Olm of Agartha. Physically strong? No. Magically gifted? No. Full set of eyes? No. Giant Cave Salamander? Yes.

That checks out in my book.

[Tifone]

On national thematic pretenders.

Some of them have a 10 or 20 point cost for new magic paths so they're ok for me, they're supposed to be versatile mages and that versatility is there to be used (i.e. Mictlan's Smoking Mirror)

For the ones who don't have an easy access to other paths, and have just the national paths, maybe it could be good if they start with an already quite high magic power on them.
The idea is that even if I take them the way they come without boosting their magic, they're already mages that the other national mages envy and respect fort their knowledge of the magic they study. Dunno, like having 3 or 4 on their paths, so the "national flavoured" blesses and possibilities to cast the national summons and spells come easier for them.
I think it's thematic and logic and would fit nice on the image of a pretender with the magic paths of his nation - as they represent IMHO the deep connection between a nation and its magic paths. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
This possibly unless they do already wondeful SCs by themselves http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Wrana]

Could only agree with Tifone's idea. Though more special rules is always better, but this will do in a pinch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[HoneyBadger]

JimMorrison: Excellent idea for a glacier chassic Pretender. I had a similar (and yet, oddly enough, diametrically opposed) idea for an Abyssian Pretender, that would consist of a vast magma being that lived in the Smouldercone. I agree that mindless is probably the way to go. Maybe your Glacier God could spawn longdead cavemen and undead mammoths and so forth, as they become unfrozen from the icy tomb that is it's body?

[Tifone]

@ Wrana, thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif it seems doable to me too.

@Gandalf Parker,


Gandalf Parker said:
I like Lord of Night for Mictlan but its probably less thematic. I like the idea of a flying stealthy assassin titan.




To, me, using a titanic beast half-man half-bat to take down a single commander, seems like using a rifle for elephant hunting to kill a rabbit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif but I like its flavour so that's not a complain, just an ironic note http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Sombre]

Not if that single commander is a similarly sized monstrosity.


I think this thread and the new version of CBM go hand in hand - it really does boost the thematic but weak pretenders a whole lot. I like the Solar Disc for example and in CBM he's cheaper and better, with a nasty fireshield.

[Xietor]

I like the idea of a signature national pretender, especially for races with no free design points. Like the gorgon for Pangaea in the MA(ignoring you Sauromatia).

Since MA Man gets no design points, and is not among the elite races, I have been fooling around with creating a national pretender for MA Man, which will be in my Kingdom of Avalon Mod.

Not finished yet, but thoughts?

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/aefc4bc3a739efd0913d61fefab018842g.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=ji0t1w9y2zb&thumb=4)

[Sombre]

I guess it depends how strong the reinvig is and what his items are like. Those are all new items - were there no suitable existing ones?

He looks like he'd be a strong expander and able to lay down a bless too.

[Tifone]

@ Sombre,

I'm really, really glad of it. Opening the 3ad I was just looking for a friendly talk about the "signature" of the game - the Pretender Gods. If this thread gives ideas to the modders, even if it isn't of course my merit, I'm happy for that.

I'd even like a lot if the devs take in consideration boosting a bit some of the national pretenders which have just the national paths... I.e. the Ageless Olm, which many rightly appreciate, costs 50 points, isn't an invincible SC, has no easy access to other paths and has just E1W1, paths which EA Agarthan national mages have in great quantity. Boosting it at E4W3 takes 72 points, for a grand total of 122 points.
It wouldn't be logic to give him Fear or Awe or Petrify, but if he was already E4W3 and costing just 70 points i.e., it would be more appealing not just for the die-hard roleplayer but even a little more for the minmaxer - it wouldn't do anything for magic diversity but blessing the pale ones would be easier and the Olm would be a nice mage by itself, thematically worshipped by the Ancient Ones for his deep inbuilt knowledge of their magic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Multi-nation pretenders don't need it IMHO as many are strong by themselves, and many times you can choose them to diversify your magic with paths your nation usually don't have easy access to. Titan pretender also maybe, they make up for that with their full slots.
Just my idea of course ^^

[Sombre]

Eh, I didn't so much mean that this thread influenced the new CBM version, more that people who like unorthodox pretender choices and thematic national gods would probably be happy with the changes in cbm 1.3

So the thread and the coincidental release of 1.3 go very well together.

[Xietor]

"I guess it depends how strong the reinvig is and what his items are like. Those are all new items - were there no suitable existing ones?"

Reinvigoration 2, animal awe 9.

I like creating new items! The Living Vine Shield is a slightly better vine shield. But the pretender has entanglement even without the shield. That is because you cannot mod special abilities into shields.

Blood Stained Spear is 12 ap w/ decay.

May be more thematic to have the spear poison. Helm is nothing special.

[thejeff]

Poison is probably better. More appropriate for a hunter. And decay is fairly useless for an SC.
I'm not sure about the Vine shield. It may be a little to much to have him keep entanglement when you replace the Shield?

The earth is nice for Man, both as a bless and to give access to hammers. They still desperately need access to Astral and/or Death, though. 50 path cost makes it reasonable to add magic.

[Xietor]

Only a developer(i think) can mod special abilities into shields at this time). And it is not unthematic for a Hunter with Nature magic to be able to entangle his enemies. It is after all, a nature spell.

It is more important to me to have him have the entangle ability, then worry about him having it down the road when/if the shield is replaced.

[Tifone]

@ Sombre,

oh, ok, sorry for misuderstanding http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I'm glad anyway that this 3ad has a role http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

@ Xietor,

this pretender is very nice for a mod with strong pretenders! If I can give a little and humble suggestion, he shouldn't have hand slots. His nice weapons and the shield are so thematic and "personal" to him that it shouldn't be possible to change them with something else, obviously IMHO.

'gratz anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

With all the new weapon modding commands going in I wouldnt be surprised if armor modding was next.
http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom3/dom3progress.html

[Sombre]

I doubt it. Those are new commands are for abilities already in the game for weapons (not items that also happen to be weapons). There are no abilities already in the game tied to armours (again, I don't mean items that are also armour).

[Wrana]

Congratulations, Xietor! He looks quite solid, though I wouldn't think that hunter should have a shield as a standart armament. And the spear can be made two-handed - most hunting spears (non-thrown) were. It's quite possible for him to have entanglement still which can be described as him having deep knowledge of traps also (not that I see it as necessary). He can also summon great hounds... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif By the way I don't think it will be possible to make armor-related abilities any time soon - they look to be either monster- or item-based...

[Xietor]

He still needs a good bit of work on his descr., but the shield will have to stay. While he usually hunts with his bow,
now that he is coming out of the forests to establish world domination, he has decided that a one handed spear and shield combo is superior to the 2hed boar spear.

Taking away his hand slots is a very good idea! I like it.
That way I do not have to worry about someone giving him a charcoal shield and him still having entangle. May give him an extra misc to compensate.

[thejeff]

The only trouble with taking away hand slots is limiting path boosters. Thistle mace at least since he has Nature.

[Tifone]

Mmh, that pretender seems so much a SC, i think it would be a very big opportunity-cost to set him on casting. But it isn't up to me questioning how a player wants to use his pretender god http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I was just thinking about some people playing a noble born Samurai in some RPGs, which stop using the Ancient Katana of the Family Clan and Ancestors of their character, because the Flaming Barbarian Axe they just found gives more damage. I mean, that's just unthematic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif so maybe Xietor would like his creation always mantaining the thematic hunter's and nature weapons of his character, instead of a charcoal shield and tartarian chains o.O If this solves him even some technical problems, even better ^_^

[thejeff]

Probably not battle casting, there he'd be more useful as an SC, but there are times outside of battle when you might want him to cast summons or forge things your native mages can't. It would nice if he could use a hammer, for example.

You might just want to give boost him in Nature so he can cast Faery Trod to get to the front.

It's a limitation, that should be kept in mind. That's all.

[Tifone]

Anyway, a thing like that would be really unbalanced in the basegame http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[MaxWilson]

Meh, I don't care as much about balance as thematicness and coolness. Balance can be fixed by changing point costs. Besides, I would like Man to have a strong pretender.

-Max

[Tifone]

Totally right Max. Thematicness and coolness. That was what I was talking about when I opened the thread, I must admit for first I was driven elsewhere ^_^

[cleveland]

MaxWilson said:
I would like Man to have a strong pretender.




http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Wrana]

Something along these lines from my non-finished mod which splits LA Bogarus nation:
#newmonster 2049
#name "The Great Bear"
#descr "The Father of All Bears is an enormous beast with shaggy fur. Just a slap
of his paw can easily send several men flying and his roar is terrifying to hear. He is seen by his subjects as a manifestation of primal forces of nature, but he also
possesses a surprising cunning and wisdom and is said to be able to converse with spirits.
The Bear is somewhat lazy, but beginning wars of other Pretenders cause him to rise from his slumber and understand that he may only have his rest if he banishes them all..."
#pathcost 60
#startdom 3
#copyspr 1951
#ap 22
#mapmove 2
#hp 181
#prot 16
#size 6
#str 30
#enc 3
#att 15
#def 10
#prec 8
#mr 18
#mor 30
#gcost 90
#rcost 1
#weapon "Paw"
#weapon "Paw"
#eyes 2
#magicbeing
#coldres 50
#forestsurvival
#startage 1000
#ageold 1500
#heal
#fear 5
#berserk 6
#magicskill 3 1
#magicskill 5 1
#magicskill 6 1
#itemslots 28672
---3 miscs
#goodleader
#okmagicleader
#restrictedgod 71
#selectnametype 146
#end

(it can be somewhat changed still, and I probably will modify a picture to add a crown on bear's head. Paw attack has aoe 1 - I wanted to avoid trample here. There is also a thought to add Polar Bear as well - with probably Water and Nature as magic paths...)

[Tifone]

A big black bear and a polar bear? Interesting! It reminds me somehow the two great bulls pretenders, which I personally love for their flavour.
The idea of an AoE paw which kills several men at once is very nice. The (mental) image of this great bear sending people fly around with its furious hits is epic - I think this Pretender would fit very well Marverni too. But aren't AoE attacks not influenced by strenght? This would be weird applied to the bear, as it is definitively its strenght to send people around...

P.S. nooo, please, no crown on a bear, noo, please. it stops being a king and becomes the dancing bear of the old gypsy circuses http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif if you really want to make him appear dominant, a giant alpha male, you could maybe consider giving him a mane of dishevelled, wild black hairs around his neck and shoulders (not as a lion but quite, you got the idea) Just my humble suggestion of course http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[MaxWilson]

cleveland said:

MaxWilson said:
I would like Man to have a strong pretender.




http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif



That was in response to a comment that Xietor's new pretender for Man might be totally unbalanced in base game.

-Max

[Xietor]

Umm, no. The Master of the Hunt would certainly not unbalance the base game. He is not a Gorgon after all. And we are not talking about this pretender for MA Ermor or Pythium either.

[Sombre]

Tifone said:
The idea of an AoE paw which kills several men at once is very nice. The (mental) image of this great bear sending people fly around with its furious hits is epic - I think this Pretender would fit very well Marverni too. But aren't AoE attacks not influenced by strenght? This would be weird applied to the bear, as it is definitively its strenght to send people around...




Aoe attacks use strength unless stated otherwise.

They never use attack.

[Tifone]

Sombre said:
Aoe attacks use strength unless stated otherwise.

They never use attack.



Ouh sorry. My bad.

[Zeldor]

Hmm... anyone knows what "fimbultyr" is? That is one of the titles available for pretender. And google gives me only some metal band...

[Endoperez]

Wikipedia claims:
The prefix 'fimbul' means "the great/big" so the correct interpretation of the word is "the great winter".

The name Tyr meant "god" (cf. Hangatyr, the "god of the hanged" as one of Odin's names; probably inherited from Tyr in his role as judge) and goes back to a Proto-Germanic Tîwaz, earlier Teiwaz, continuing Proto-Indo-European *deywos "god" (whence Latin: deus, Sanskrit: deva and Lithuanian: dievas).



From articles about Fimbulwinter (Illwinter, three winters without summer in-between that mark the beginning of Ragnarök) and Týr (the one-handed god of single combat).

[Wrana]

To Tifone:
Thank you for your comment. I was also of mixed opinion considering crown. Maybe modified fur would be better - though this will require higher drawing skills... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif By the way, it's not black bear, it's brown one - of the same species as American grizzly (but I'm not planning on including all 7 species of modern bears! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ). And yes, Great Bulls were among what have given me this idea.

[Tifone]

Oh, ok, dunno what gave me the idea of your bear being a black one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif consider posting the gif to give us an idea when you feel comfortable doing so ^_^

[Tifone]

I think I've had a nice idea for a pretender to mod into the game. From the 1973 cult movie, the Wicker Man.
It is an enormous wooden idol which resembles a human form. It is a simbol of fertility, and the pagan country community of the island of the movie imprisons inside the idol's body human innocent victims to be sacrificed, as they are burned alive with the idol itself, to provide the community a good harvest for the year. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif
It seems it would fit well in the mood of many pagan nations as EA Marverni and others.

It should be size 7, inanimate, immobile and needing not eat and blind, immune to shock, poison and fire (as the one I want in the game is ever-burning) but 50% more susceptible to cold (as it weakens its flames), have an heat aura and a fireshield 10, have standard 10, spring power (value?), a supply bonus and fortune teller 10%, but increases the unrest for 5 points per month in its province (all for thematic reasons), no slots, around 120 hp, 0 defence but high on protection and MR, and no attacks. N2F1B1 mage with difficult access to other paths (50 points).

The main problems are that 1) I've never created a mod and 2) I'm not that exceptionally good in making gifs, and this one is difficult http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

Suggestions? Ideas? Opinions? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[JimMorrison]

Tifone said:
...It wouldn't be logic to give him Fear or Awe or Petrify, but if he was already E4W3 and costing just 70 points...



You have to be very careful with the paths though. While I think there should be more pretender chassis that start with paths at 3, you must bear in mind that starting at 3 drastically reduces the cost to get a major bless, and starting at 4 would make it nearly a foregone conclusion that you would go to 9 if you used that pretender, because of cost efficiency. Starting with 2 paths at 3+4, would make a very cheap dual bless available.

Look at it this way, should cost 288 points to go from 1 to 9, so the Olm as it stands costs you 626 points total, to get W9/E9 bless. Going from 3-9 only costs 152 points, or just over half, and 4-9 should only be 120 - for a total cost of 344 for a good dual bless. I'd say with W3/E4 you'd want to at least push him to 150 base cost, though dropping the E to 4 as well would also be a good idea.

Of course, pushing the paths high and increasing base cost to compensate sort of pigeon-holes him somewhat to blesses, in some people's eyes - even if the base cost of 150 would give you strong buffing paths anyway, making him a little more capable as a potential SC.

Looking at Agartha's mages, I'd be willing to say the Olm would have some really interesting options if he were E3 + either F2/W2, or maybe just F1/W1/D1. This gives him some built in versatility as to which paths you exploit, and gives him the option to be a "semi-rainbow", though at the expense of giving you nothing that Agartha doesn't already have.


I think it can be easy to get a bit carried away. Remember that thematic and flavorful is the primary goal, yes, but without paying some attention to the actual balance, you'll only be making SP content, because no one will allow the mod in MP (though if a mod had really strong national pretenders for everyone, you could start the game yourself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif), and if it's not vaguely in line with (though of course slightly more versatile or efficient) what is already available, then it'll never get imported to the base game.

Call me naive but I can't help but think that if enough good input comes from the pretender chassis and late game summons threads, that some of it will be patched in for us. <3

[Tifone]

Surely Jim you are right. My was just a, possibly newbish, idea on how the ageless olm would be more competitive. Many people really like it for its flavour, but it surely is a difficult pretender to chose for agartha as it has only the most developed national paths and it is not an ultimate SC. But it wouldn't be really thematic to give it other magic paths than the ones it has (he is a salamander which comes from a subterranean cave - only earth and water come to mind for thigs he has always seen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )so no chance to increase national magic diversity, it has not many slots and it would be unthematic also to give him inbuilt one of the traits which are useful for SCs (I don't think it can be really fearful or awe inspiring, and surely he can't petrify or intangle)... So only making it a better mage in what it naturally has came to my mind. This possibly applies to other national pretenders which are good in flavour but the people maybe don't choose because they are -too- thematic.
But surely thanks for your points on balance. Maybe I was just too quick in giving my idea without thinking at the actual cost of a double bless.

[JimMorrison]

Hey you were on the right track. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif It's just hard to plan the starting paths, because of how dramatically it reduces the cost of the bless. For example, one reason the Cyclops is so well liked, is because it is a fine SC, and also happens to start at 3E giving it a very economical cost for a major Earth bless.

The Agarthan mages tend to get some access to Fire as well, and with the prevalence of lava in the deeps, it sort of makes sense the Olm is familiar with this element as well. I really think that giving him 3E and at least 1 other starting path would make him start to look more attractive, if nothing else than as a bless chassis and high end caster.

If he were reimagined with 4 arms, I think that would be the most interesting way to make him SC capable, he does have a lot of little stubby limbs after all, so it's not too much of a stretch. There are other abilities that could be explored as well, perhaps regeneration (worms regrow!), or even an autocast of Darkness in combat (that might be a bit too powerful, but would be so cool).

[Tifone]

Surely it would be cool, but I think early game Agartha would be everybody's nightmare, we could just forget blessed Jarls XD

[MaxWilson]

JimMorrison said:
You have to be very careful with the paths though. While I think there should be more pretender chassis that start with paths at 3, you must bear in mind that starting at 3 drastically reduces the cost to get a major bless, and starting at 4 would make it nearly a foregone conclusion that you would go to 9 if you used that pretender, because of cost efficiency. Starting with 2 paths at 3+4, would make a very cheap dual bless available.




It's possible to decouple pretender magic from blesses to some extent. For instance, you could make the Olm have E1W1 with a magicboost of +3 to E and +2 to water. In practice he'd be an E4W3 mage, but for bless purposes he's only E1W1. I haven't ever tried this but IIRC it's how dragons work (only in their case the dragon form has a -2 "bonus").

-Max

[JimMorrison]

Hmmmm, strange. I have never actually played a game with a dragon pretender, but I've tested builds with them in the Pretender Creator, and everything seems normal. Where is this -2 calculated? I understand that they are weaker magically in their dragon form, but you buy paths for their "human" form, and it seems that's what determines their bless. I could be wrong, but that's what I always thought I was seeing.

[SlipperyJim]

I think that's Max's point. You'd buy your paths (and therefore your blesses) as if the pretender started with E1W1. However, during game play, the pretender's actual magic skills would be two or three points higher than that. You'd get powerful magic skills on the pretender without a cheap level-nine bless....

[JimMorrison]

Well I think that would cause other problems though. If you got a bonus +3W for casting, and you did go for the W9 blessing for example, then for those points you get a 12W caster, before boosters. Some spells scale incredibly well with magic level, and also you get very nice bonuses to global casting.

But I guess just to clarify, you're suggesting some sort of second shape for them? The same as the first shape, but more magically inclined? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[MaxWilson]

No, you'd give the magicboost to their only shape. The dragon is weird in that is has BOTH a secondshape and negative magicboost in that secondshape.

-Max