Darwin's Zorro: The Battle For Antilarium-started

[Omnirizon]

Welcome to the 2nd game of the Zorro series, the Darwin's Zorro. Typifying the game will be hard research and VPs. Additionally, CBM will be active. We will be playing on the very fine Antilarium map, designed to be balanced and specifically for VPs.

Please see the attachment at the top of this post for the Antilarium map. For further info on this map, see this thread (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Number=546643) and this web page (http://dom3maps.wikidot.com/system:antilarium). The map contains some special sites, but to my understanding, it is also made to be balanced and should be good for MP; even if possessing some characteristics beyond typical maps.

Map: Antilarium
Era: Early Age
Players: 12 (3 Water required)
Indies: 5
Special Sites: 55
Money/Resource/Supply: Standard
Score Graphs: On
Research: Difficult
Victory: VPs (The Antilarium map has predetermined VP placement and victory conditions. Basically, there are 16 sites, two of them underwater; the two underwater sites being worth two points rather than one. Victory occurs when a player controls 8 VPs out of the 18 possible.)
Mods: CBM + Worthy Heroes; Twan's MoD mod

Hosting: Llamaserver. 24 hours for first 20; 48 hours until people want 72. All delay requests will be honored, but you must PM or post the admin. Two stales in a row and AI.

battlefield enchantments + retreat exploit is considered cheating.

Omni.................Kailasa
konming............Hinnom
Jazzepi.............TNO
Ossa.................<font color="blue">R'yleh</font>
namad...............Niefelhiem
anticipatient.......Sauromatia
Dragar...............Fomoria
CyborgMoses...TC
majuva68...........Helheim
Juffos.................Mictlan
Peltin..................<font color="blue">Atlantis</font>
Megablob...........<font color="blue">Oceana</font>

[Jazzepi]

You should use Twan's mod to remove MoD and replace it with a regular spell.

I'd like a spot, not sure on what to play yet, though.

Jazzepi

[konming]

I want to try out the infamous Hinnom.

[Jazzepi]

I'll try Tir na n'Og

[Ossa]

I'd like to take Ryleth

[namad]

i'm new, if that's okay i'll play.

what does CBM stand for?

dang the three nations i most wanted to try you've taken what a coincidence!

i'll play niefeheim

[Bwaha]

Well, since I'm getting totally crushed in two games and soon to be out of both, I would like the Argathans.

[Dragar]

Fomoria please

[CyborgMoses]

I'd like to sign up as T'ien Ch'i, if there are no objections.

[majuva68]

Helheim for me, please

[Juffos]

Mictlan for me, if you please.

Oh, and what version of CBM?

[Pelthin]

Since you need a few more water nations, How about Atlantean for me.

Thanks.

[Meglobob]

I will take the last water nation, Oceania.

[Omnirizon]

looks like we are at capacity.

I sent a PM to llama asking him if we could use his server. If he OKs it and then as soon as he is able to set up the game for us, we can start uploading.

CBM just got an update yesterday, so I've included it as an attachment on this post.

and for namad, who asked, CBM is Conceptual Balance Mod; its a mod that makes some changes to the game in an effort to make more strategical options available.

[Omnirizon]

and for completeness, here's the most recent Worthy Heroes too.

[quantum_mechani]

Just a note, CB includes worthy heroes.

[namad]

i've been trying to study this map so i'm not in the dark... the 12starting locations and 16VP seem to be in fixed locations correct?

those 55magical sites are those in fixed locations or in random ones? i don't really know enough about the map editor to check i did notice a few places were set to "many sites" but that doesn't seem to be a specific site....

oh and when it's time to start i assume you'll be posting that in this thread? correct?

[konming]

55 is the frequency for magic site to appear, not the total number of sites.

[Omnirizon]

as soon as llama lets me know the server is ready, i will post. in all likely hood, llama will post here himself, he's pretty good like that.

the 12 starting sites and 16VP sites are all in set locations, and can all be seen by starting an SP game with 12 players, 3 of them water, all set to human.

the 'magic sites: 55' is a general indicator of how common magic sites will be in any given square; i'm not sure exactly what the 55 refers to, but higher means more magic. Typical for Early Age is 45, but generally people like more sites, and it doesn't really benefit anyone nation more than another, so I bumped it up to 55.

I believe the VP provinces contain fixed location sites that would be in place no matter what the general site setting. Additionally, to my understanding, the sites bordering the VP provinces are set to 'many sites' in the map editor.

Lastly, Jazzepi suggested removing MoD from the game. It is easily exploitable, and many find it a cheap-*** spell at any rate. I'm open to suggestion on this one, but I was thinking we just leave it in the game, and simply ban any MoD + retreat exploitation. It's Ench8 and A6, we have hard research on, making it pretty hard to get to without forgoing other necessary stuff, and you really have to invest in a mage or have a pretender to make it castable. I think if someone gets to the spell and wants to use it, they should be able to as long as they don't exploit it. Opinions?

[Jazzepi]

Ominirizon, there's a mod that takes out the bad version of MoD and replaces it with an interesting one that doesn't suffer from the same problem as the original. Twan made it, and I've used it before.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=596055&amp;page=4&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1

Jazzepi

[konming]

My mistake, apperantly if more than 4 sites are given. Four random ones are chosen from them.

[konming]

As noted above.

[Omnirizon]

alright, Jazzepi, that sounds like a good idear; let's do it. I've PM'd llama and asked him to include that MoD. Everyone be sure to download it.

Also, make sure you have the latest version of CBM (CBM 1.3). And make sure you have it turned on when you make your pretenders.

I think llama has the game set up for us. Be sure to send them to his server with "DarwinsZorro" in your subject line (no qoutes). I think there is a special address for pretenders to his server. See his FAQ for more info. Let's try and get off the ground in 48 hours.

llamaserer FAQ (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Number=531116)

[anticipatient]

PM me if someone drops out. I'd like to take part in the new zorro http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[CyborgMoses]

So, where does the Darwin's Zorro live?

[Omnirizon]

S. America

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin's_Fox

[Omnirizon]

almost there folks.

everybody be sure they created pretenders with CBM 1.3 enabled; otherwise we get that cheating message and have to restart.

also, make sure you have all the mods we are using: CBM 1.3 + Worthy Heroes, and Twan's MoD mod. links to all of these should be in this thread somewhere.

let's have a good game, i'm looking forward to it, this map looks fun.

[Jazzepi]

I'll be uploading later today.

Have a final today D:

Jazzepi

[Pelthin]

Thanks for the reminder, while I had the mods downloaded, I did not 'activate' them.
I resent my Pretender. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[namad]

QM specifically said in IRC that CBM1.3 includes worthy heroes...? so do we need to enable both?

[Omnirizon]

it may be that the complete CBM package contains the mod, but enabling CBM isn't enabling worthy heroes; so that you do have to enable it seperately.

i don't really know though, just enable it to be safe, I say. actually though, i don't think it matters when you make your pretender. and i think the game file will have it enabled, and it will turn on automatically when you open the game. so in the end it probably is all moot. but enable it anyway.

[Omnirizon]

all we need now is argatha to upload and this game is going. let's go let's go HOO RAAH!!!

[Bwaha]

I'm sorry, I will have to bow out of this game. I've got some personal troubles that are hindering any more new games for me. again I'm sorry... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[CyborgMoses]

Eh, don't worry about it. Stuff happens. I hope that your personal troubles work out.

[namad]

so do we have an alternate lined up? from my understanding this map has fixed start locations and so requires exactly 12players? if there isn't an alternate lined up we should post asking for one? or is this map playable with 11?

[Omnirizon]

actually, we had someone ask about that. it was anticipatient i believe. I'll PM him.

[anticipatient]

I'll play. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Bwaha]

Thats great, I was afraid that I messed you guys up. Thanks anticipatient... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif The owners of my rental decided to remodel my house... Tenting and new roof, carpets, ect... I got to move out for two months... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif the good news is they like me so no rent increase and I get to move back. But I hate moving with such a passion I may find something else.

[anticipatient]

You hate moving with such a passion that you might move? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I sent in a sauromatia pretender. Actually, I sent in two. You should list me for sauro for others players' reference.

Ah. The game is set to start at 12, I assume, so the first turn should be coming out soon, right?

[llamabeast]

Okay, I have this game all set up to start, and will do as soon as Omni PMs me to confirm it's good to go.

Incidentally this looks like a really fun game. I've never even seen that Antilarium map before! And it looks really nice. Along with CBM and the VPs, it should be very interesting indeed. Wish I'd had time to join.

[Meglobob]

Yes, thats why I joined, the map looks very, very interesting with many unusual features. With CBM in the mix, which I have only played once with in MP (did very badly, dead before turn 20), should be a very refreshing game for me.

[anticipatient]

Looking at this map, especially considering the number of provinces, I am really hoping that I built a scales-positive pretender. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Jazzepi]

What's going on with this game?

Jazzepi

[Meglobob]

Waiting for Omnirizon (see look I got his name right first time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif), to send llamabeast a pm asking him to start the game.

[Meglobob]

Wierd, this game has dissappeared off Llamaerver. Something wrong?

[Omnirizon]

hey folks, i sent llama the PM yesterday morning. this morning he sent me the PW and said game is started. but the game seems to be gone?

I've PM'd llama again. i guess something got goofed up.

[anticipatient]

AndeanZorro just sent out a turn named turn 1 . . .

I am guessing what happened is that he somehow confused Andean Zorro and Darwin's Zorro?

[llamabeast]

What kind of a fool would confuse Zorros like that?

I've just restarted again, hopefully all will be well now.

[anticipatient]

I take it back. Just got the first turn in my email.

[anticipatient]

Oh good job Llama:)

BTW, Foxes are very confusing. It's what makes them Foxes.

I wouldn't blame you if you confused Foxes. In fact, I'd applaud you. It's time someone turned the tables on those little buggers!

[llamabeast]

lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Omnirizon]

even more confusing is that the Zorros are not actually foxes, they are a genus all their own, and I think even more closely related to wolves than foxes; thus making them double confusing.

[anticipatient]

Yes, actually I recall reading that. But they're fox-like, I think we've proven that!

[namad]

dangit i sent in my .2h file and it wasn't recongized by the server... i've tried resending it ... hopefully i can manage to make it accept this time

nevermind resending it fixed everything

[namad]

so....

anyone wanna make some bets on who hinnom elimates first? and on what turn? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I wish O I wish how I was a fish! so that i could watch the battle http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[konming]

Darn, humble and peaceful nation of Hinnom do not like war and have been at peace with our neighbors. We just happen to eat a lot (and I do mean A LOT!) so we need a little more living space, but that is just a tiny tiny little bit more. And unlike those scary double bless niefelheim giants, we are all about loving the planet and the sun.

[namad]

hey I'm not trying to start a fight with anyone! I figured if I posted you might take it personally. (thats why I added a lymric)

I was just trying to spice this forum up a little bit, I don't have much intelligence and it'd be a shame to totally miss several wars or whatever http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif this is my first MP game!

I figured looking at the score graph that maybe hinnom was going to attack someone maybe not... i took a guess... i figured if you were going to attack someone that... maybe the other person would feel like writing something colorful here in response.. anyways I apologize for making assumptions based on your national stereotypes

[konming]

My oracle is surprised to find icy nation of Niefelheim on the lush south. What are blizzard bringers doing in Florida? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[namad]

hey... giants go on vacation sometimes ... you know tans are in vogue in the north now!


we would kindly thank you not to leak intelligence against our top secret summer home near boka

[konming]

Heh, it is just a game, and nothing is taken personally. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But rest assure that Hinnom is a peaceful nation, in fact we have non-aggression treaties with all the nations we met so far. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[anticipatient]

Hinnom must die!

hehehehe...

[konming]

Shilvering in fear http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif... Mighty (what's your nation again? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif), please spare us. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

[konming]

I looked at the nation list and wow, this game is a rush heaven. Nief, Hel, Mict, Sauro?! And to lesser extent, TNO, Fomo... I wonder why the expansion rate so far has been ughr... modest? Is everyone hiding their strength to deceive others?:)

[Jazzepi]

The only resource rich province is one filled with knights of *** beating +5 right next to my capitol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Jazzepi

[konming]

It is a VP province for a reason.:)

[Jazzepi]

Well, obviously.

It's just a little annoying that it's occupying a space next to my capital.

Jazzepi

[konming]

Helheim's gem income jumped by 6 in a single turn? That's some kind of nice sites. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Omnirizon]

this game is turning faster than any other i've ever been in, i think. i love it.

in interest of keeping fast turn arounds, i'm increasing hosting interval to 36 hours. although this sounds counter-intuitive, players have expressed fears of accidentally staling, and are withholding turns, which also sounds counter-intuitive. so i'd thought i'd meet one counter intuition with another, and increase hosting interval. this way, no one has to worry about the deadlines cranking down on them.

[CyborgMoses]

Oh, no! Now that you've gone and mentioned that the game is proceeding with decent speed, somebody will start submitting every turn five minutes before the deadline. IT IS INEVITABLE

[konming]

LOL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Omnirizon]

looks like you're right cyborg http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[namad]

the problem i have sometimes is i work on my turn late at night and pass out before sending the email then i wake up remembering that i did the turn.. and forgetting i never sent it... i'm new to mp please don't hate me

[Jazzepi]

namad said:
the problem i have sometimes is i work on my turn late at night and pass out before sending the email then i wake up remembering that i did the turn.. and forgetting i never sent it... i'm new to mp please don't hate me



I hate you.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Jazzepi

[konming]

I am going out of country this coming Monday (GMT). I need a one time 48 hour extension for next turn (turn 11). Thanks!

[Omnirizon]

no worries namad
no problem konming

[Omnirizon]

on a brisk winters day during the tenth month of this first year, Kailasa has finally made contact with another land power. Initial meeting circumstances were less than ideal, as the bullheaded Burelk and his laughable platoon the "City Gaurd" marched into a province shortly after Tien Chi nationals had arrived. Tien Chi made short work of what was a fiercely independent but poorly equipped native tribe. Burelk and his men, accompanied by a small troop of Kailasian nationals, found the battle-weary Tien Chi force as they were resting from their recent engagement. Bull-headed and probably a little drunk, Burelk ordered his men to form up and charge what seemed a small force of lightly armored swordsmen. The accompanying Bandar commander, never known for his brightness, followed suit.

The Tien Chi soldiers were better prepared than Burelk bargained for. They're accomplished swordsmen and hardened fighters. The poorly trained and armed City Guard were quickly mowed down by the much smaller force; the Vanara and Markata soldiers were little better able against the swordsmen, and were also quickly cut down. The loudmouth Burelk was last seen fleeing the field of battle, and neither he nor his remaining men (if any!) have been heard from since. Good riddance, say the Kailasian high command. The Bandar commander managed to escape to a neighboring province, and is being commentated for his past victories and his current better discretion.

Despite the opening run in mishap, the embassies of Tien Chi and Kailasa have agreed upon an initial six month non-aggression pact.

[konming]

Damn, there HAS TO be a conspiracy against me in MP game. In my luck 3 domain, I've got not a single ounce of gold due to my unbelievable good luck, and already had 5 money losing events, 3 in last turn alone.

Luck aside, my seven chariot died in front of 30 something tribals? This is unheard of in previous Hinnom adventure. On the brighter side, since the turn is turning so quickly, my request for delay is now for turn 12.

[konming]

And no hero either? While in my test games, 3 times two appeared in the first year, and twice one appeared.

[Meglobob]

I am glad that its not just me that Dominions, 'kicks in the teeth' on a regular basis! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The DRN generator really, really hates me... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

[CyborgMoses]

The commanders of both the Glorious Northern Conquest Brigade and the Invincible Southern Expeditionary Force have issued profuse apologies for the unfortunate incidents of these past two months in which they unintentionally obliterated small portions of the Kailasan Army. The Divine Emperor hastens to assure all that T'ien Ch'i intends only peace to the highly articulate monkey people of Kailasa. Unfortunately, the uncivilized followers of the god Marc have refused our offer of peace and are subjugating the innocent peasants of our northern lands. Helheim, your cruel acts shall not go unavenged!

[Dragar]

I played one game with high luck and turmoil, it was by far my most disastrous game ever! Had way more bad luck than good. I must have bad karma or something..

[konming]

It looks like I do not need the extension, not now anyway. Since my trip was delayed due to unfortunate events http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif, the game can go on without me dragging the foot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Omnirizon]

a second run in the following month! Damn these EA no scout provinces.

your apologies are assuring of lasting amiabilities between our nations, but are otherwise unneeded. our own expeditionary force had been pushing too close towards Tien Chi homelands anyway.

that was, however, quite the Invincible Expeditionary Force.

[namad]

would anyone care to sell me one or two dwarven hammer for some number of water gems?

[Omnirizon]

Water Gems is the magic word here. Kailasa will gladly sell you a Dwarven Hammer, as soon as we can make them.

[namad]

i don't suppose anyone is making them NOW http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ?

[konming]

Nation of Hinnom is buying gems.

While in other games, you get 15G for limited types of gems, we the peaceful nation of Hinnom believe that everyone should get a fair deal. We are paying 20G/gem for any kind of gem. That's right, we pay for any kind of gems, including those just fell from sky.

What's more, we also pay 250G for 10N. If you do not need gold, we are quite willing to trade ANY other kind of gems for N, 1:1 of course.

Here is your easy source of next castle or the gem type you just need.

[Dragar]

Utgard is keen to purchase a dwarven hammer. On sale are nature, death and astral gems, and/or cash.

[konming]

Utgard? Wrong game?

[Omnirizon]

Dragar is Fomoria in this game, if memory serves.

I guess confusing them isn't unimaginable.

or are you thinking of another game, Dragar?

[Dragar]

Gah!! apologies, yes was speaking about the other game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Fomoria aint trading nothin for now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

sorry for the confusion

[namad]

wait... gems actually sell for that low of prices???? i'm new to mp but that sounds really low for gems anyone want to sell me some astral or nature or death gems? paying ever so slightly more than hinnom?


maybe it is obvious from my post but I suppose i'll clarify i'm capable of forging I suppose I could perform some basic forging services if the tip is lucrative enough


i'd be willing to trade astral gems for nature/astral 5water:4(N/S) or maybe death

[CyborgMoses]

The Divine Empire of T'ien Ch'i seeks to trade its stockpile of water gems and astral pearls for earth and nature gems on a five-to-four basis; in other words, five of our water gems or astral pearls for four foreign earth or nature gems.

Thank you for your responses; the gem requirements of T'ien Ch'i have been fulfilled for the moment. We must again thank our ally Kailasa, whose clever traders have swiftly undercut the competition.

[konming]

So any report from the war front between TC and Helheim?

[konming]

So quiet here... zzzzZZZZ

[CyborgMoses]

The vile armies of Helheim have hesitated in their attacks on our sovereign soil, no doubt reluctant to challenge our Emperor's divine authority without first using their cowardly stealth to ascertain the extent of his power. As of yet, they have only engaged the few peasants assigned to guard our territories as province defense, but once the Invincible Southern Expeditionary Force reaches the disputed territory from the far-flung corners of the Earth they set out to explore and bring under the protection of T'ien Ch'i, they are surely doomed. Be warned, Marc, Lord of Injustice and King of Barbarians; your aggression shall be your downfall!

[konming]

The world must be a strange one. TC attack Hel in early game...

[konming]

On the other hand, your expeditionary force must be truly amazing...

[Omnirizon]

com'on namad, why are you so pokey with turns?

i'm going back to 24 hour scheduling.

[Jazzepi]

Omnirizon said:
com'on namad, why are you so pokey with turns?

i'm going back to 24 hour scheduling.



Good D: I'm not sure why you thought it would make it faster to move the scheduling out. People just take more time.

Jazzepi

[Jazzepi]

Namad is a liar and a thief! His people have violated their sacred oath to us. Stolen over 500 of our gold and 10 of our nature gems rightfully offered for a single province to smooth out a border dispute. Attacking us without provocation and warning!

We call upon all good and just people of the world to deny them trade and do them harm where-ever possible.

Jazzepi

[namad]

my slow play is mostly due to internal turmoil at proper response to jazzepi's lies :-p

you made a NAP and then instantly broke it
then offered me a bribe for stealing two provinces in the new NAP

then didn't send the bribe in a timely fashion...

how could i possibly have a nap with you after that much lying? how can you possibly make me out to be the bad guy in this?


YOU'RE EVEN LYING IN YOUR POST ACCUSING ME OF LYING! you only sent me 200gold and 10nature... if I had received 400gold and 10nature gems on turn 12 we wouldn't be at war... i never even asked for 500gold... it's all stored in the replies in the pm system... how can your facts about the province borders and the bribe amounts be so wildly wrong so many times? when they are both so easy to check?

and the border dispute consisted of two provinces... just admit you bullied me and then lied because you thought lying would soothe tensions

[namad]

anyone able to trade me 5air gems for this turn? i can offer water? amount negotiable

[Jazzepi]

The devil king of the giants is only attempting to cover up for his betrayal. Attacking us unannounced after the agreement to a 3 turn NAP. And our poor, poor gems http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif WHO WILL THINK OF THE GEMS?!

Jazzepi

[namad]

I agreed to maintain the NAP3 that YOU BROKE without provaction, FIRST. IF AND ONLY IF I received 400gold and 10nature gems.


i received nothing then 10nature gems then 200gold...

just admit you are the one that lied and admit that you attempted to bully me... it's all pretty clear from the history of PM's, anyone who would believe you has taken leave of their senses


you've actually lied to me so many times i've often had to consult old turns and the history of our pm's just to make sure i hadn't gone insane... yet every time all i discovered is that you had lied about something


then again I am new to MP maybe everyone else would agree with you... we met... we began peace talks... you offered a border of I take 161 you take 148.. I counter offered I take 161 I take 148 (you take all the rest)

then two turns later you take 161, you say oops, you claim to never have noticed that you agreed to giving me 161 and 148 (yet it's all in the message of replies) then you accuse me of having too many provinces and claim that the new NAP is you take 161 (which you never once even asked for until you took it by crossing my border and yes this province was still independent at the time but so what? you agreed to a border)

now you are a more experienced player than me and you offered to bribe me to make amends for the one province you took (even though you actually were taking two provinces from the agreement you actually did agree to if you check the old pm's)

i pointed this out to you, and made a demand, you agreed to my demand... three turns later the bribe had not yet been completely paid and i took BACK 161 from you

I figured giving you a bit of your own medicine seemed reasonable... I planned to claim I didn't remember anything but the original NAP3 that you broke.. I figured maybe you'd let me take 161 and 148 back from you in exchange for a bribe (perhaps even the same bribe you gave me for them) yet you seem to have been instantly incited to war and slander... why slander i can't imagine

[CyborgMoses]

Actually, this raises an interesting question; what are people's opinions on betrayals in games of Dominions? Examples might be breaking peace agreements or not sending one's part of a gem trading deal.

[namad]

honestly I have no problem with betrayal.... he betrayed me and lied and said he didn't... I barely even minded

if you break a NAP3 and then claim you forgot what the nap3 was... wouldn't you just consult the log of messages and refresh your memory and then retreat in order to establish the original NAP? the fact he demanded two new provinces ... that means he was bullying me... again this was fine with me...


but after basically betraying me twice all I wanted to do back to him was betray him a little... bully him back a tad.. restore the balance... what grounds does he have to slander me for breaking a NAP3? one that had been broken for a long time (by him)?

note: i edited a couple of the last messages of mine to fix typos and seem less angry, and I was attempting to avoid double posting by adding to the last post... but people kept interrupting my monologue with replies of their own so it might be a bit disjointed now...

[Dragar]

One small piece of advice - conduct diplomacy using the private messaging system of the forums, it gives a much better and easier track than in-game, and also means you don't get a 2 turn lag between responses

[Omnirizon]

I once had a player not send me 10 gems they owed me for several turns. we had a NAP during this time. I declared war on him, but still followed the NAP. Of course, now he isn't ever giving me my gems, because we're at war. Still, I insisted that he should send me the gems, since he had "forgotten" for several turns before war was declared.

I think people exploit the system sometimes, play dirty; a sort of dark diplomacy. There are rules in light diplomacy, and dark diplomacy exploits them. Dark diplomacy will also exploit the game-real life interaction; just another part of playing dirty. Some people cry foul, claim people are cheating, lying ect. Modern Game Theory says that the cheating and playing dirty simply become another aspect of the game; the game-real life interaction that is exploited is actually only another aspect of the game. What is game and what is life become blurred, there is no real boundary. Good stuff, that Modern Game Theory; has some interesting inferences, given the above points.

[namad]

one of the turns i held up in the hopes jazzepi would edit his turn and send me the bribe sooner and prevent this war... and then the other turn i held up was attempting to plan my response to his untrustworthiness...

i was going to try and post time indications of that from gmail and the pm system... but since we have like 40pm's all in one reply reply reply reply system... i can't seem to access my own "sent pm's" since replies don't appear to count as "sent pm's" and.... quoted old replies don't appear to have timestamps http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[namad]

i don't think i can imagine any world in which I broke an NAP here...


he broke the NAP .. said oops sorry... i refuse to acknowledge that old NAP let's renegotiate it so that i get +2provinces and pay you a bribe.. (yet he claimed he was only gaining 1province) the bribe apparently was scheduled to finish arriving 4turns after it was brought up... (now the schedule for the bribe was delayed many times... it was never agreed upon to be delayed at all)

so he broke a NAP... i agreed to re-establish our nap IF he did something.... he didn't do it... we had no NAP for me to break.... he claims i broke a NAP that didn't exist because he had already broken it :-/


really breaking a nap early doesn't seem like cheating... it's just a betrayal... if someone does it maybe you slander them and hope to get allied support....

but lying over and over and over to make it seem like he never broke a NAP, never agreed to a NAP, never lied, never bullied me and then claiming I'm the bad guy and trying to slander me... that's not even a matter of dark diplomacy he just lies in every single sentence... he even lied about what the bribe was supposed to have been... and he never ONCE admitted he bullied me out of TWO provinces not one...

how could I possibly have a NAP at all with a person so untrustworthy to communicate with? let alone how could I have broken it

[konming]

You can check save message option when sending a reply. Still, since it is just a game, you guys might want to relax a bit. Just my 2cents. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Jazzepi]

konming said:
You can check save message option when sending a reply. Still, since it is just a game, you guys might want to relax a bit. Just my 2cents. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



The good people of Tir will not have their name besmirched! All of the oath breaking giants will be put to the sword!

Tir is a land of good and justice. We even have growth domain. Not like the foul, cold blooded territory of namad's giants, overflowing with death and corruption.

Jazzepi

[konming]

Turn 15:

Oceania's attack on R'lyeh came to a sudden halt. Lots of triton knights must have fallen. Atlantis is watch from sideline and grabbing lots of land provinces.

The infamous Niefelheim giants are relentlessly advancing on TNO capital. But there are many tricks TNO can do.

Helheim's minor border skirmish went on with great middle kingdom. Now Helheim's sacred troops are having an edge. But what will TC's famous expeditionary force do?

Mictlan's sacred warriors occupied great patch of Fomoria land, but Fomoria giants are mobilizing to face them.

How long will the remaining four nations be at peace? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[konming]

On the footnote is my incredible luck(TM) struck again. I should have known a very ill omen is something to fear, but still nothing prepared me for the loss of half of the population. We shall remember them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Injured.gif

[majuva68]

TC's famous expeditionary force is death

[konming]

Dwarven Forging Group, Hinnom Branch (hereafter known as DFGHB) are glad to announce our grand opening.

Our first offer is the fabled Dwarven Hammer(R).

While you can get imitations from our competitors, ours has the following advantages:

1. It is made by a genuine dwarven smith, so the quality can be assured.

2. It incorporates advance science developed by Grigori. Our dwarven smith manufatures using computer assisted manufacturing(CAM) techniques and composite material. So while it offers the same great gem saving bonus, it is also of lighter weight and greater precision.

3. Our price is competitive. We accept 12E or N + 6 gems of your choice. So everyone can afford.

[CyborgMoses]

Unfortunately, the Glorious Northern Conquest Brigade, which consisted primarily of the remnants of T'ien Ch'i's starting army, has been dispersed by the invading rabble. This was truly an insulting end to such fine servants of the Divine Emperor. However, the newly raised Stupendous Army of Heavenly Vengeance has set out for the lands of the most ignoble Helheim, sped on by the cheers of the relieved peasantry, and is followed closely by the Invincible Southern Expeditionary Force, still marching from the far-flung edge of the near-infinite Empire of T'ien Ch'i. Marc, Prince of Dogs and Devourer of Children, you are not long for this world!

[CyborgMoses]

What a deal! The Hinnom Shopping Network is pretty amazing. Too bad my nation's economy is based primarily on showers of water crystals falling out of the sky. Do you take blood slaves, by any chance?

[Omnirizon]

hmmm.

we have someone getting a mite close to a stale, and I'm going to bed right now; so can't check up later to see if they get any closer.

since hosting schedule changed only recently, some players who don't check the forums may not be aware of it, and may have planned some real life activities around a 36 hour cycle.

to be completely fair and safe, i'm going to delay hosting by 12 hours (emulating a 36 hour cycle); but only this once. typically, no notification= stale.

[konming]

Due to apperant lack of interest, we DFGHM are doing a one time blow out sale of dwarven hammer at 15N. PM me if interested.

[namad]

anyone want to trade me astral gems for water gems?

[anticipatient]

I am going to be out of town for about 24 hours this weekend (JUST enough to get a stale). I hope you don't mind giving me a 36 hour extension. I will, of course, return and send my turn ASAP when I am back.

If that's not okay, I'll take the stale. Thanks :_)

[Omnirizon]

of course no prob.

seems many are out of town this weekend

you, konming, and me are all travelling. I will just set to 60 hour cycle until we are all on stable keel. if we don't need that much time, then ok. but just to be safe.

[Omnirizon]

well the idea was to allow a sixty hour cycle for those few of us who were traveling over the weekend to have breathing room...

yet somehow, these people seemed to get their turns in quite pronto, and we ended up waiting 36+ hours on... guess who.

[Meglobob]

He's just roleplaying his race..., slow, ponderous, ice giants, obviously slower than Hinnom or Formorian giants who live in a warmer climate. A bit glacial... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Someone cast quickness on them!

[namad]

you know last night when i checked i wasn't the only one who hadn't submitted :-/ replace me if you want(this remark is serious) but yesterday two of my neighbors hadn't submitted there turns and I figured there was a chance they were planning to contact me before they did for some reason so i was holding back turning it in...

i guess i'm not supposed to do that but this is my first mp game... i'm not having any problems in my other games they all have regular schedules.. I could easily have handled getting a turn in every 12 to 18hours but when it's been like 30hours and three people haven't handed in their turns i guess i get confused

and actually last night the last time i checked i believe it was megablob who hadn't yet submitted.... maybe I figured he was planning to PM me since we're neighbors and have PM'd eachother many times before.... and earlier yesterday TNO hadn't submitted their turn either and that made me worry... I figured for some dumb reason submitting my turn earlier than the guy I'm at war with was a bad idea... i guess that wasn't logical


I really don't see the point here I never asked you to change the schedule once, and I never once staled... we wouldn't gotten in a lot of turns this weekend anyways because of various complications so what exactly did I do?

[majuva68]

All of my provinces are deserts, with this map I can't grown, it's impossible.

[Meglobob]

Its ok namad, chill, as a rule of thumb, its always a good idea to do your turns ASAP.

I was just being lazy btw and I don't care what anyone says! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

My above post was just a joke!

Really, as long as you don't stale no one can complain. You seem to be doing well for your 1st MP game btw.

[Omnirizon]

i hear you majuva68. I looked over this map and its gig is to give each starting postion some unusual advantage and an unusual penalty. so, tir na og is surrounded by provs with high pops, but low resource and is in middel of map. corner positions typcially have little other advantage. your position has very little income, but lots of gem producing sites around it (notably, that desert of thatoneguy that gives 2fire 2earth 2death). so each site has some notable advantages and disadvantages.

problem is, each nation has certain needs and can really benefit from one site, or really be hurt by another. when you make each site so different, even if ultimately balanced, there is a huge factor of luck now addded, which the special start positions was actually designed to reduce.

i'm gonna contact the maker of this map after our game and let him know our experience and give feedback, hopefully he can change it, or maybe make a more MP friendly version.

but yes, I totally understand your problem. One thing I found to help alliviate the issue was to be intimately aware of each starts qualities, make an SP game with all human players and indies on zero. then you can spread out and see what is where, that way you know how you should spread out. for example, with your start you have the advantage of lots of gem sites around you, but low income. however, if you knew exactly where the closest high income sites were, you could have spread that direction at the beginning to boost your income, and go back to collecting provinces around you later. really, there are some pretty close high pop provinces close to you. had you know exactly where they were, you could rush for them, and then consolidate your empire later. in fact, you are really close to lots of chokepoints, and could have rushed for a few income provinces while blocking access to the ones close to you, and go back later and get them.

just a thought.


say, how the hell is Hinnom still expanding? they must be surrounded by all those people that didn't expand much at all. what a strike.

[konming]

DFGHB now adds several more items to its offer list:

Earth Boot/Thistle Mace/Frost Brand/Fire Brand

Our prices are always great so inquries are welcome.

[CyborgMoses]

Namad, you can submit your turn early on and then, if someone contacts you later, go back and change it. If you redo your turn and send in the new version, the server will take it. Also, if you're the last one to send in your turn, if you wait five minutes you'll get the new turn data and can do your next turn right away.

[konming]

Giving all the diplomacy, it is understandable people need to hold their turns and submit when diplomatic situations are clear. You wouldn't want to mass troops to someone's border who just agreed to your NAP.

[konming]

Hinnom wants to reaffirm its desire to trade for nature gems. We supply any other gems you want or forge at base cost in return.

Hinnom is also looking for a skull staff, we pay well and you can enjoy our special "friend discount" on forging.

[Omnirizon]

after having noticed many of his (or her?) astute, well informed, and consequently very informative posts around the forum, I have to say that konming is cleary sandbagging, having picked hinnom. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[anticipatient]

Sorry about the delay sending my turn in. Must've missed sending in all the confusion of the deluge of llamasever emails to go through once I came back. That's a lot of propositions. Hope that made sense.

[CyborgMoses]

The numerous, mighty, and humble servants of the Divine Emperor of T'ien Ch'i have reached the lands conquered by the villains of Helheim and liberated all of them, driving the cowardly prophet of Marc from the battlefield to be cut down like a dog in the process. Now, only the Helheim homeland awaits, beyond a province held by several so-called "heroes". Cheered on by the many peoples desirous of the enlightened rulership of T'ien Ch'i, the true heroes shall surely march to triumph!

[konming]

Omnirizon said:
after having noticed many of his (or her?) astute, well informed, and consequently very informative posts around the forum, I have to say that konming is cleary sandbagging, having picked hinnom. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



Errr, I will take that as a compliment.

[Omnirizon]

sandbagging: when a player purposefully chooses an easier level of competition than their skill level usually calls for. classic example being when a bicycle racer races at a lower class than they usually would, in order to place on the podium to attract sponsorship.

or it is when a player deliberately portrays themselves as a lower skill or weaker player in order to deceive others. classic example being a poker player 'limping' in to a hand when they in fact have a strong hand; the inverse of bluffing.


i'm mostly just playing around though. so no worries.

i will say this much though, i'm never allowing hinnom in another one of my games.

[Dragar]

I think as the realisation of how powerful and dangerous hinnom really is sinks in to the playing community players will immediately ally to target them. Same as rlyeh and ermor in late age. It should liven up the early age a bit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

For this game though hinnom has a massive lead - I hope his neighbours are planning to do something about it very quickly! No point keeping the peace and playing for second place!

[Jazzepi]

Omnirizon said:
sandbagging: when a player purposefully chooses an easier level of competition than their skill level usually calls for. classic example being when a bicycle racer races at a lower class than they usually would, in order to place on the podium to attract sponsorship.

or it is when a player deliberately portrays themselves as a lower skill or weaker player in order to deceive others. classic example being a poker player 'limping' in to a hand when they in fact have a strong hand; the inverse of bluffing.


i'm mostly just playing around though. so no worries.

i will say this much though, i'm never allowing hinnom in another one of my games.



Personally I think this map has some serious issues. I've always hated maps that have really small chokepoints, and a lot of them.

Jazzepi

[konming]

Hinnom was among the first to be eliminated in Kingmaker, also in the game I subbed - beer, Hinnom was on the verge of extinction in the first year. I will admit that Hinnom can be very powerful IF played correctly, as Baalz pointed out in his very thoughtful guide.

Omnirizon: I do understand what sandbagging means, and there is dictionary.com even if I did not. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Hinnom's position in this game really came from our great peaceful relations with all our neighbors.

Dragar: Being Hinnom already shows its downside. My offer for 15N hammer was never answered. This should tell you something. Besides, you would rather attack peaceful and honorable Hinnom rather than Mictlan? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Jazzepi: IMHO choke points are OK, it just favors a more defensive style instead of being rushed everywhere. However, the map is not close to be balanced. We will see this more clearly when VPs are taken.

[Jazzepi]

konming said:
Hinnom was among the first to be eliminated in Kingmaker, also in the game I subbed - beer, Hinnom was on the verge of extinction in the first year. I will admit that Hinnom can be very powerful IF played correctly, as Baalz pointed out in his very thoughtful guide.

Omnirizon: I do understand what sandbagging means, and there is dictionary.com even if I did not. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Hinnom's position in this game really came from our great peaceful relations with all our neighbors.

Dragar: Being Hinnom already shows its downside. My offer for 15N hammer was never answered. This should tell you something. Besides, you would rather attack peaceful and honorable Hinnom rather than Mictlan? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Jazzepi: IMHO choke points are OK, it just favors a more defensive style instead of being rushed everywhere. However, the map is not close to be balanced. We will see this more clearly when VPs are taken.



I just wish there wasn't a VP right next to my capital divesting me of valuable resources that could have been used since turn 1.

Jazzepi

[Omnirizon]

i like the chokepoints, however this map needs to be wraparound to solve some of its particularly glaring problems that arise from having so many chokepoints.

the starting positions also need to be a bit more standardized. your position is heavy in income, jazzepi, but low in resources. giving each position unique qualities completely undermines the point of starting postions to begin with.

konming: didn't mean to insult your intelligence by posting a definition to sandbagging. your reply was just a bit ambiguous and hard to read, couldn't tell if you knew what it meant. i don't deny at all that your position came from peaceful relations. that's just the problem with hinnom; if no one starts a war with them, they win. you could easily sit back with what you have now, start no wars, and win in the end. in fact, that's what you're planning to do. that's why i'm trying to get a conversation started on the topic.

[Dragar]

Yep there's a lot of luck involved. In my other antilarium game, Beer, I'm playing abysia and have pathetic starting resources..

Scarily I'm about to join another antilarium game - I wonder why its so popular?

[konming]

Beer is based on Alexander map.

[Omnirizon]

a) its a nice looking map.

b) special starts and VP placements. even if not balanced yet, that is the first step to balance. the creator of the map can improve it using feedback gained from these games.

c) significant number of contiguous water provinces and a fair amount of chokepoints are considered favorable to strategically interesting MP play.

d) special VP provinces adds a nice twist and makes things interesting, even if not yet balanced.

e) everyone is tired of playing on cradle, glory, and alexandria.

[Dragar]

Bah, they both suck http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

konming, Fomoria would much rather the peacloving Hinnom as neighbours than Mictlan, but what can you do?! And had I any N gems I would happily have taken you up on the offer.

[namad]

is the hosting time set to 48hours on purpose? or on accident?

[Jazzepi]

Omnirizon said:
c) significant number of contiguous water provinces and a fair amount of chokepoints are considered favorable to strategically interesting MP play.




The problem is the entire map is made of single-line chokepoints. It's not interesting MP play when the only way you can progress towards an enemy capital is 4 different provinces in a row with no deviation. A small amount of choke points adds flavor, too many takes away choice. When you take away choice, the game becomes /less/ interesting.

Personally, I think this map is poop. I vastly prefer maps with lots of provinces connected together and a sprinkling of choke points. It makes for more interesting strategic decisions concerning moving armies, instead of this gar-bage (said as though french) where you just send your armies charging down a single file corridor.

Jazzepi

[Omnirizon]

true enough, jazzepi. i agree the map is far from balanced, and still needs some work. I like its overall look though, and believe it has potential.

namad: we are on 48 hours because in the recruitment post, i said we would go to 48 hours around turn 20. we are all doing a good job getting turns in quick still though, so just keep it up and we should keep moving quickly.

Omni

[konming]

I wonder what happened to Sauromatia. He stopped researching three turns ago and most of his army got killed last turn. Did he try to take a VP province?

[anticipatient]

Yeeeeeeep.

I lost 11 hydras, 10 witch kings and 150 androphag archers.

I should've had the witch kings skele spam or something . . . . . . . . pretty significant setback . . . .

[konming]

Well, warrior of five elements are partially poison resistant, you know... Even if they have only 6 HP, they still kill hydras easily.

[namad]

what are the stats on god's men guisepepe 400gold wow.. is he any decent?

[Omnirizon]

IIRC, he's a weak fire mage. the men are nothing speical; basic heavy infantry. the price is due to the fact that he's a mage, i think.

[anticipatient]

For ermor, giuseppe's men are 1200gp http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Ah, yeah I didn't realize the warriors were poison resistant . . . they were all at 3-4 hit points when I died.

ALL of them were. So if they weren't poison resist, I would've won http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[anticipatient]

I would like to point out, publicly, that majuva68 has threatened (and is following through with said threat) that were I to make war on him in the game, Freshmeat, he would make war on me in all games.

I encourage all of you to review Sheap's rules of conduct.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=d3maars&amp;Number=575534

Please discourage majuva68 from carrying issues from one game into other games.

[Jazzepi]

Seriously, that's highly inappropriate majuva68. Cut it out.

Jazzepi

[Omnirizon]

that is very bad majuva68. behavior like that will threaten the integrity and fun of dom3 MP gaming.

[Meglobob]

anticipatient said:
I would like to point out, publicly, that majuva68 has threatened (and is following through with said threat) that were I to make war on him in the game, Freshmeat, he would make war on me in all games.



majuva86 that is considered seriously bad form. Each game should be played individually and not linked. You will get viewed in a very poor light and increase your chances of being ganged by being unpopular with your fellow MP players. I would withdraw the threat and say sorry, claim ignorance... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[anticipatient]

I sent him the link, although his english may not be all that good. He's from spain, so who knows? I don't want him to stop attacking me. It is, as they say, SO ON. :) The war is underway, troops are committed, etc. I don't mind the state of things in games, I just really would like majuva to acknowledge hsi understanding that this is generally considered poor behavior.

And again, he's going to be pissed at me, because I broke our NAP and cut off negotiation not long after he made that threat. But thanks to you who have backed me up on this.

[majuva68]

My laptop is K.O, the hardisk is breaking. I can't do nothing. Anticipatient, you attack me without respect our NAP, this is the reason we are in war in all games. I can't connect in 15 days, when i'll come back we disscuss this. I can say a lot of things but you attack me before NAP is broken. Who are best ?. Put me in A.I, I can't search a sub

[konming]

In that case, it is perfectly legtimate to attack in every game and disregard any NAP you guys may have.

[CyborgMoses]

It is always legitimate to take such actions; it is the reason for these actions, namely, events in an unrelated game, which is illegitimate.

[CyborgMoses]

Is anyone selling any path-booster items, particularly water, nature, or earth?

[anticipatient]

Sorry, but I'm not going to negotiate or respect a NAP with someone who threatens to attack me in every other game, regardless of circumstances, when I declare my INTENTION to attack.:doh:

[anticipatient]

With regard to Hinnom:

Their talk of peace should not be believed. They only wait to prey on weaker nations.

[konming]

Is anyone selling any path-booster items, particularly water, nature, or earth?

Well, DFGHB is always ready to help. We supply fine boosters in water, nature, and earth. DFGHB - a name you can trust.

[anticipatient]

And Hinnom just broke their nap with Sauromatia (me).

Announced NAP-3 was being terminated in 3 turns, named the specific turn, and attacked one turn later.

Now is the time to attack Hinnom.

[anticipatient]

I am blatantly and openly gathering allies against Hinnom. PM me if you are ready to go to war against them. I know there are many of you out there that are uncomfortable with his growth and dominance. Let's put a stop to this would-be tyrant's unchecked expansion!

[konming]

And Hinnom just broke their nap with Sauromatia (me).

Announced NAP-3 was being terminated in 3 turns, named the specific turn, and attacked one turn later.

Now is the time to attack Hinnom.

The notice was received on turn 23 way before you make you turns, and I specifically stated that hostility could break out on turn 26, which you did not object. I took you first province on turn 26. That's how I was told to calculate NAP duration. I wonder why you are making these lies and baby cries. :)

[konming]

Kailasa is taking advantage of the war between Mictlan and Fomoria. This unprovoked and unfair attack shall be remembered by all the peace loving nations of the world.

[CyborgMoses]

The legions of T'ien Ch'i have returned to the battlefield, having completed the period of rest, relaxation, and regrouping granted them by the most benevolent Divine Emperor. Easily crushing the "hero" Bogus and his allies, the Stupendous Horde of Furious Retribution have overrun the defending filth of Helheim and laid seige to their capital city, sustaining a mere five casualties in the process. At long last, justice has arrived at your doors, Marc!

[konming]

I have encoutered this movement bug. My large army is ordered to attack last turn, but it did nothing. This is so frustrating.

[konming]

The legions of T'ien Ch'i have returned to the battlefield, having completed the period of rest, relaxation, and regrouping granted them by the most benevolent Divine Emperor. Easily crushing the "hero" Bogus and his allies, the Stupendous Horde of Furious Retribution have overrun the defending filth of Helheim and laid seige to their capital city, sustaining a mere five casualties in the process. At long last, justice has arrived at your doors, Marc!

He has gone AI several turns ago. No doubt under the pressure of your splendid army.

[konming]

If this bug keeps my main army from moving again, I will have to request a rehost. Let's see.

[CyborgMoses]

He has gone AI several turns ago. No doubt under the pressure of your splendid army.

Well, that's disappointing. I suppose that I'll have to settle for splendidly conquering the computer.

[konming]

Strange. Helheim did not use F9W9 bless. Actually, it used neither F9 nor W9 bless.

[konming]

Lagging behind on research? Needs some boosters to cast good magic? Lack good equipment for your SCs?

Your worries are things of the past since DFGHB now comes to help.

We offer choice items to help you in ALL regards:

Solution to your research wooes.
Lightless lantern

Needs more magic path?
Water ring/robe of the sea
Earth boot
Thristle mace
Ring of socery/ring of wizardry

SC lack gears?
Charcoal shield/shield of glimmering gold
Frost brand/fire brand
Boots of quickness/boots of stone
Hydra skin armor

Inquiries are always welcome.

DFGHB - a name you can trust, always.

[Omnirizon]

Kailasa is taking advantage of the war between Mictlan and Fomoria. This unprovoked and unfair attack shall be remembered by all the peace loving nations of the world.

Actually, Mictlan made an unprovoked attack on a protectorate of Kailasa, first demanding that we 'give' it to them, and then when we refused this charming request, they simply invaded and took it by force. Our war with Mictlan is not an attack of opportunity (unlike Hinnom's is with Sauromatia ), but only a response to protect our lands.

[namad]

sorry i held everyone up... i was desperately hoping someone would reply to a pm of mine so i could avoid perhaps accidentally attacking them over an independent... oh well fingers crossed..

[konming]

Can we have a rehost? I understand this is not to be asked lightly. But my main army has been stuck for two turns due to this bug. And this is amid an all out war.

I have changed troops composition and commanders, but the army just won't move. And since this is the only border province, there is no walk around either.

So I formally request a rehost. What do you say guys.

[CyborgMoses]

Can we have a rehost? I understand this is not to be asked lightly. But my main army has been stuck for two turns due to this bug. And this is amid an all out war.

I have changed troops composition and commanders, but the army just won't move. And since this is the only border province, there is no walk around either.

So I formally request a rehost. What do you say guys.

I have no objection.

[namad]

maybe you should get a person who isn't playing this game to be a 3rd party and come in and look at your turn and see if they can't figure out what might be wrong?...cause if you can't figure it out rehosting 1000times isn't going to stop the problem?

[konming]

I welcome someone to come and verify what I said. But I really do not think anyone else, short of the developer themselves can figure out what's wrong. The bug has been discussed several times in the board and no one has a definative answer. The solution normally is to move to another province, but it is not possible here.

[konming]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=36563

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=33772

Here are two discussions of the bug.

[Meglobob]

I do not want a rehost!

Sorry Konming but I have been seriously short of money for ages and finally got a +1000 gp event. If we rehost, chances are I will get a bad luck event instead!

I suppose if you pay me 1000gp I might agree but otherwise, no way!

The 2 threads say it can only be fixed 2 ways. Issue your movement orders one at a time per commander (avoiding group movement) or giving a different move order, rearranging your army/units/commanders and trying again.

It sucks, but its a very, very rare movement bug so hopefully if you do the above will not happen again.

[konming]

I did not ask for a rehost the first turn it happened, otherwise I probably will be at someone's capital already. :)

I tried to rearrange troops, add commanders and so on to no avail - it happened twice in a row. Moving to other provinces is not a option. I will try to issue movement order individually, though I doubt it will work, since the 2h file should not be different.

[Omnirizon]

konming has asked for a rehost. I've no idea really how it works. I'm guessing I just 'rollback turn', and then we can basically just resend 2h files that we already prepped for last turn.

first though, are all OK with this? it's kind of a big deal, because players can use knowledged gained from the first hosting to modify their turns for the rehost. there is also the issue of whether this will solve anything, if it has happened for two turns in a row, then maybe it just ain't gonna happen. lastly, there is the fact that bugs happen, and typically, the game IS NOT rolled back due to them. I suffered from a bug in another game, and the turn wasn't rolled back; it typically just isn't done for too many abuse issues.

I have to cast my vote as not rolling back, due to all the complications involved. but since konming is for it, that basically makes my vote nil (but his too). what do others say?

[konming]

I understand that rehost is a very serious decision. That's why I did not ask for a rehost when the bug first appeared.

But the current situation is, I cannot attack the only province that borders us (the main part that does not requires teleportation anyway). I do not know if he can attack from it. He is basically safe from my army. After several turns of preparation and my enire army stuck - for two turns in a row, it has become extremely frustrating. :confused:

Now a bug that makes your enemy immune from your attack? I personally consider it a serious enough bug that warrants some trouble. And I only ask for one retry to see if it will persist. If it does, so be it. I will blame UN peacekeepers. :(

I have seen games rolled back due to serious bugs, but if you guys thinks doing a rehost is too much trouble, I certainly can understand.

[namad]

if you are referring to the border i think you are.. i believe the armies on both sides of the border have been unable to move... which is amazingly odd...

[Dragar]

Could it be a map issue? Maybe test moving across that border in SP?

[konming]

Scout went through with no problem, so it cannot be a map issue.

[konming]

And in SP there is no problem.

[konming]

if you are referring to the border i think you are.. i believe the armies on both sides of the border have been unable to move... which is amazingly odd...

I have to ask him if he is also moving. ;)

[CyborgMoses]

konming has asked for a rehost. I've no idea really how it works. I'm guessing I just 'rollback turn', and then we can basically just resend 2h files that we already prepped for last turn.

first though, are all OK with this? it's kind of a big deal, because players can use knowledged gained from the first hosting to modify their turns for the rehost. there is also the issue of whether this will solve anything, if it has happened for two turns in a row, then maybe it just ain't gonna happen. lastly, there is the fact that bugs happen, and typically, the game IS NOT rolled back due to them. I suffered from a bug in another game, and the turn wasn't rolled back; it typically just isn't done for too many abuse issues.

I have to cast my vote as not rolling back, due to all the complications involved. but since konming is for it, that basically makes my vote nil (but his too). what do others say?

If I read the instructions on Llama's server correctly, then I believe that rolling back the turn then force-hosting before some players submit new turns will cause the turn to be run with their old .2h files, which would negate the issue of "inappropriate knowledge" if you either host immediately after the rollback, in which case everything would be the same, or after only konming submits a modified turn.

Sorry if that was incomprehensible, I'm tired.

[Dragar]

Presumably we are pausing the game until we resolve what we're doing here? Any more turns and it becoems even more problematic..

As it is rolling back 2 turns using old 2H files doesnt' really work, as surely whoever Konming is invading would want to react to the change. Ideally if we rolled back only those two players would be able to change their turns, and keep them honour bound to only change their turns in relation to that one border (and not based on what happens with other players)

Of course, the issue of random events and combat hostings is a big one.. 2 turns really means everyone should be allowed to replay.. of course disvantaging anyone who surprised an opponent..

gah, what a mess! In future lets please pause the game as soon as there is an error until we decide what to do :)

[CyborgMoses]

gah, what a mess! In future lets please pause the game as soon as there is an error until we decide what to do :)

This is what has happened; no turns have been processed since the one in question.

konming: since I don't know how much you know about software bugs, I am going to make some suggestions which may seem obvious. Please don't be offended.
There is something which causes this bug to manifest or not manifest. Since we don't know what causes the problem but suspect that your input may have something to do with it, and we know that your current input results in the bug showing up, one way to try to keep it from showing up again is to change your input as much as possible. I would suggest reorganizing all troops in this province, both in the makeup of units and in which commanders those units are assigned to. If you have a unit of seven spearmen assigned to a sage named Steve, maybe one of those elements is one of the things which can make the bug show up; take a guy from another unit and add it to the spearmen, and pass them off to some other commander. If you have a commander moving who you don't actually need, try having him do something else; maybe the particular combination of commanders and orders makes the bug manifest. Even seemingly unrelated things, such as which mages in your other provinces are researching and which ones are casting spells or forging, should be switched up where possible. I hope that this is helpful.

PS: On the bright side, at least this affected your entire army. Several times in single-player, I've had the movement bug cancel my orders for some, but not all, of my commanders, leading half of my army to be slaughtered when their comrades didn't show up to the battle.

[Omnirizon]

I don't see a lot of yaying or naying.

As of now, I'm going to proceed with no rollback. It really is a large hassle to the whole game, with too many issues involved. I don't think it is a good idea ever, and precedent claims the same. People get bit by bugs, but the game just goes on, because in the end it is really the least amount of net harm to the game.

[konming]

gah, what a mess! In future lets please pause the game as soon as there is an error until we decide what to do :)

This is what has happened; no turns have been processed since the one in question.

konming: since I don't know how much you know about software bugs, I am going to make some suggestions which may seem obvious. Please don't be offended.
There is something which causes this bug to manifest or not manifest. Since we don't know what causes the problem but suspect that your input may have something to do with it, and we know that your current input results in the bug showing up, one way to try to keep it from showing up again is to change your input as much as possible. I would suggest reorganizing all troops in this province, both in the makeup of units and in which commanders those units are assigned to. If you have a unit of seven spearmen assigned to a sage named Steve, maybe one of those elements is one of the things which can make the bug show up; take a guy from another unit and add it to the spearmen, and pass them off to some other commander. If you have a commander moving who you don't actually need, try having him do something else; maybe the particular combination of commanders and orders makes the bug manifest. Even seemingly unrelated things, such as which mages in your other provinces are researching and which ones are casting spells or forging, should be switched up where possible. I hope that this is helpful.

PS: On the bright side, at least this affected your entire army. Several times in single-player, I've had the movement bug cancel my orders for some, but not all, of my commanders, leading half of my army to be slaughtered when their comrades didn't show up to the battle.

Great advice. I suspect it has to do with mixed movement types, but we will see.

[anticipatient]

Yeah, that hasnt been making me happy either..

[namad]

I wouldn't mind either way i am however worried about if i should submit my next turn or not?

it seems like if both sides in the war have the same bug it is kindof fair...

megablob claims he got a REALLY lucky event it seems like if we rollback we'd be robbing anyone with great lucky events...

maybe get people to post screenshots of their lucky events and ask if konimgig would pay for them or something? then maybe everyone would agree?...

but unless we pause the current turn we wont have time for all this

[Dragar]

I'm pretty undecided.. I guess for one turn rollback i vote yes

[Meglobob]

My vote is no rollback. I may go AI if we do a rehost or you can find someone else to play Oceania.

[konming]

My vote is no rollback. I may go AI if we do a rehost or you can find someone else to play Oceania.

There is no rollback and the game is waiting for your turn.

[konming]

Apperantly Oceania's good luck spreads. 1000 gold fell from sky to our land last turn for the first time. The other good new is that by moving one by one, we were finally able to move into Sauromatia border province. The accidental loss of the mercenary force has proven painful. 2/3 of elite Avvite Chariot squad and 1/3 of dawn guard squad have perished. Ba'als are gearing up to revenge for them.

[Meglobob]

Glad its sorted and I hope it never happens to anyone again this game!

No money events for me this turn:(

[konming]

Hinnom is buying N gems. We can trade you everything but E.

[CyborgMoses]

The nation of T'ien Ch'i has found itself in possession of a large death gem income. Being an enlightened and noble people, we have no use for such things, and are interested in trading them for other resources; in particular, air gems and gold are desired. Additionally, we seem to have acquired thirteen blood slaves from somewhere or other, and we would appreciate it if someone would take them off of our hands, as their girlish giggling disturbs our sages to no end.

[konming]

We have huge surplus of air gems, however we have no use for death gem either. :)

[konming]

Now to answer Namad's question some pages ago, who will be the first nation elimiated by Hinnom?

The first nation gone AI is TNO, assaulted by Niefelheim.

The first nation defeated is Helheim, defeated by Tien Chi.

Now Helheim is gone, TNO and R'lyeh are all but gone, Atlantis and Sauromatia are on AI.

Only seven human players left. Should become interesting very soon.

[namad]

i think 5out of7 would probably forfeit to you though :-p bragging less might make us stick it out.... or bragging more might make us stick it out... i forget how bragging works

[Meglobob]

Interesting version of history, sort of leaves out the fact you declared war on Sauromatia and the fact Hinnom nibbled a bit at most of those almost defenseless AI's.

Anyway, the winner writes the accepted history and everyone believes it to be the truth eventually. As you are going to win you may as well write the history as you see it.:)

Its not very interesting at all really, we are just waiting for you to stop messing about and conquer those VP's then we can sign up for another game. Get on with it!

[CyborgMoses]

Hey, now, speak for yourself... I'm not out of this game by any means.

[Dragar]

Yeah lets not give the game away too early, sheesh! I'm sure once some current wars have gone to completion the second tier of nations will put a concerted effort in against Hinnom!

[Meglobob]

Well its good to know Tien Chi and Fomoria think they have a chance.:) When a nation has the research + gem advantage Hinnom has, they have gone on to win 9/10. Remember, Hinnom can blood hunt as well, so the gem advantage is even greater.

Just want to make it clear to everyone, Oceania will not lift a finger to fight Hinnom until I see several nations at war with Hinnom.

Anyway in other news, I have F, E, W gems for trade. I would like D gems and/or shrouds of the battle saint. PM me if interested.

[namad]

anyone care to trade me some non-water gems for some water gems :) ? or are water gems just hated by all?

[CyborgMoses]

Dear Niefelheim:
How are you doing these days? Our glorious and exalted nation has been fine. We've had a little bit of trouble keeping to our budget, but then, doesn't everyone? At least the neighbors are nice. At any rate, we were wondering why you suddenly stopped sending messages in the gem trade we were negotiating. Was it something that we said? We've never gotten a bad response from "We'd be happy to sell you a hundred death gems" before, so we are thinking maybe it's something else. Do you have a cold? Make sure to dress warmly in those frozen wastes of yours! We have enclosed a scarf that we knitted (with our great and terrible magics). Please stay safe!

-Love,
The Mighty and Noble Nation of T'ien Ch'i

[CyborgMoses]

By the benevolent grace of the Divine Emperor, one of the Pillars of the World has come under the control of the enlightened nation of T'ien Ch'i! Through hard work and sacrifice, the Greater Three-Pronged Army for Victorious Liberation was able to overcome the demons, undead, and various other unsavory forces enslaved by the Hag Angerboda. Rejoice, for the endless chaos promised by barbarian control of this most sacred site has given way to the Divine Law!

Additionally, we wish to congratulate Kailasa on their liberation of another World Pillar, which we noticed came in the same month as our own venture. Well done, o kings of the apes!

(Translation: T'ien Ch'i took a victory point this month, and so did Kailasa.)

[Meglobob]

Building a castle on those, 'pillars of the world', for defensive purposes is a very good idea. A invader does not get the VP until the castle has been taken I believe. Sorry, if any of you already know this, just don't want any teleporting/cloud trapezing SC's robbing you of your prize.

[konming]

Let it be known that any aggressions on nation of Mictlan from now on will be met with full force of Hinnom jump-capable capital fleet and our shock troopers who materialize out of subspace, er, I mean astral ether.

[CyborgMoses]

Building a castle on those, 'pillars of the world', for defensive purposes is a very good idea. A invader does not get the VP until the castle has been taken I believe. Sorry, if any of you already know this, just don't want any teleporting/cloud trapezing SC's robbing you of your prize.

Haha, well, I'll be building a castle there just as soon as I get some... y'know... cash.

[Omnirizon]

Let it be known that any aggressions on nation of Mictlan from now on will be met with full force of Hinnom jump-capable capital fleet and our shock troopers who materialize out of subspace, er, I mean astral ether.

Now is the time for all nations to begin full force attacks on Hinnom. Why they should ally themselves with a nation several provinces removed from their own borders, and why that nation would even ally with them, is dubious. But Hinnom will soon be invading Kailasa's lands, if they aren't bluffing. This means portions of their forces will be committed to a campaign on our nation. This is the world's ONLY chance to topple a threat that should have been invaded by all who were able in the first year. This is the LAST chance for anyone but Hinnom to have a chance at victory.

Don't let this opportunity slip away.

[konming]

Can we have an extension of 24 hours? I am having some problems with moving this weekend. Thanks!

[Omnirizon]

well. i just now read the message, and the turns just hosted.

do we rollback?
I really think that's a bad idea, as usual. If I could have gotten a request more than four hours before hosting...
With that kind of time window, there's just no way. I had stepped out earlier this afternoon, and just now got back.

[konming]

No need for a rollback since I sent in a hastely done turn. But I did send in request 4:20 before hosting, and it was before you turned in your turn, still no harmed done.

[namad]

not to sound rude but.... 4hours and 20minutes notice out of 48hour cycle is not very much notice at all... if you suddenly became because with only 4hours to go... how come you didn't just start your turn a day earlier? and if you were busy for the entire 48hours in the future maybe you could request the delay in advance?

i am willing to appreciate you control half the map and are starting wars with half the map so perhaps you turns are complex? maybe sometime soon we will just need to switch to 72hour cycle for everyone?

[konming]

I apologize for the late request. I will try to do my turns earlier.

[Meglobob]

I would'nt mind going to a 72 hr cycle, so I can do better quality turns. Just got my last one in with 20 mins to spare. When are we going to 72 hr turns?

[Omnirizon]

righhhhhhhtttttttt....... NOW!:banana:

[CyborgMoses]

Aw, nuts. I've been enjoying the rapid turnaround in this game. I suppose that if people are so busy they can only sit down to do a turn once every three days, though, then it can't be helped.

[CyborgMoses]

You... uh... you don't actually have to send anyone to the death match.

[Omnirizon]

How many people would like to carry this game forward?

Kailasa will fight this out to the end, if only for the sake of integrity, and the chance to play through these conditions.

But Mictlan and Hinnom are now allied, and both attacking Kailasa. Mictlan doesn't care that this guarantees Hinnom's victory, and only wants to see Kailasa smashed. Their last message to us was "you have already lost". This in fact is enough for them, to see Kailasa lose. They just couldn't stand the fact that we were winning a war that they started because they thought they would easily win it.

The real problem though is that no one has been acting against Hinnom. No one. From the beginning of the game, till the point of no return, everyone was to afraid to begin. Kailasa cannot pretend to be more righteous in this, the only reason we are at war with Hinnom now is because Hinnom declared war on us. But with the ENTIRE game having gone by without ANYONE acting proactively against Hinnom, and allowing them to just pick at other players and vulch lands as they could, they are guaranteed victory.

So if people want to begin fighting Hinnom, we can. But if everyone is just going to hide back scared until Hinnom comes for them, then we can just end the game now. It is unlikely that anyone but Hinnom will still win, but it might be a fun for the entire world to try and fight back, but right now NOBODY is trying to fight back.

So what's it going to be?

[konming]

As I understand, Mictlan offered you (Kailasa) a truce deal. But you refused. I would not blame Mictlan when you would rather take over their land than fight Hinnom. Besides, Mictlan was on the defense for the last how many turns? 10? 12? Hinnom really has not began attacking you either. Sure one scout and one merc took over a undefended land each. And even 5 horrors could not break your siege on Mictlan capital. That's all it has done. But Hinnom will help to restore Mictlan territory and it will not keep a single province that used to belong to Mictlan. :)

[konming]

Also this is a VP game, so with one surprise attack, one could get to 8 mark. And that nation does not have to be the strongest one.

[Omnirizon]

I continue the war against Mictlan because they have never had any intention of fighting you. While asking for peace with Kailasa, they continued wars against Fomoria; so much for being on the defensive. And their 'peace' treaty was a joke. They demanded half of our lands as part of it. They never intended peace with us, if they had then they would have offered us a serious peace treaty. And they never intended to contribute to a global war with you, if they did then they would have ceased all their other wars.

And don't anybody think you have a chance of snatching eight VP's in one turn. Any given nation, except for Hinnom, has perhaps the force to capture one or two VP's right now. The only nation that will be doing any significant VP snatching is Hinnom. If they havn't already won, then the only way to stop them is for everybody to fight against them; you are not going to win by sitting back and hoping you can build up enough force to snatch VP's, Hinnom is already too powerful for that.

So I ask everyone once again. Do you want to continue this farce? Do you want to fight? Or do you just want to call the game? The farce is out of the question, I'm not doing it. If everyone is willing to fight this war against Hinnom, and now Mictlan, than I'm game. And if people just want to give up because they think Hinnom is already guaranteed victory, then they are probably right, and I can go that route; although it might be fun to carry out a global war with them and see what happens.

[namad]

maybe we should just forfeit

[Omnirizon]

i think that the game already has a winner, HInnom. That said there isn't much point in carrying on. I would rather stop wasting time on this game and get in/start another.

I did just get a spell I've been waiting all game for though, kind of want to play around with it. I don't mind playing another couple of turns just to take the oppurtunity to expiriment. I just don't see any point in playing any further for the point of declaring a victor. I think we already have one.

Maybe we play two more turns and then call Hinnom the winner. If anybody decides during that time that they want to try and fight it out, then we can play on instead.

[namad]

does celestial music give quickness to all your sacreds or something? cause i watched that horror battle and i didn't see any listed effect of the spell at all....

[Omnirizon]

all of Kailasa's sacreds.

basically all those half-nude dancing high kicking looking things. Yavanas, Guhyakas(sp?), Apsaras, Gandharvas, Yakshas, Kinnaras, Siddhas, Devatas, and Rudras.

also: it seems llamaserver is down. this almost makes me want to end the game now. What do other players think?

[Dragar]

i'm pretty much out of it regardless, so happy to finish. Will keep on if others want to play however

[CyborgMoses]

I would like to continue playing.

[Meglobob]

I am sure if Konming/Hinnom got his thinking cap on he could teleport/cloud trapze enough SC's to take all the VP's he would need to win. I would prefer the game to, 'officially end' this way, than us all to give up.

Basically, if others want to continue I will.

[Omnirizon]

alright. let's game on.

[Juffos]

Oh, this drama makes my chiton rasp and talons ooze!
You, sirs, have been extremely joyous ones to play with.
Delicious.

Well fought, Omnirizon :)

[CyborgMoses]

What is up with the "Mictlan might be cheating" message? It seems like this is something worth making sure of.

[Meglobob]

What is up with the "Mictlan might be cheating" message? It seems like this is something worth making sure of.

Yea, is Mictlan cheating or what (altering his files to give himself more resources)?

[konming]

Mictlan was supposed to receive 1000 gold that turn, maybe that triggered the problem?

Anyway, this astral corruption really made things interesting. It stinks, to say the least. I lost a fully equipped mage, with ring of wizardry on her. :(

[Omnirizon]

Thanks Juffos :)

sorry if my ingame banter is ever offensive... I mean it all ingame anyway, but once I got someone really mad...

Anyway. sorry I staled. So busy with school, and looking at these turns depresses me now :(

I'll fight it out, but I hope Hinnom would hurry up and wrap this game up...