Marignon Man at Arms

[Lingchih]

I wonder why the Marignon Man at Arms infantry only have map move 1? They are considered Elites, and they are your only shielded troops unless you recruit cavalry. As Elites, should they not have a map move of 2? They are a great meat shield for Mari, but seriously slow down all the other troops that have map move 2.

[Omnirizon]

my guess would be because they're too busy touching themselves at night.

[Lingchih]

Omni, you are right on as usual.

[Micah]

Yeah, given the horrid price markup they really should be move 2, or something...though the goetics are slow anyhow.

[Sombre]

Because they are heavy infantry.

I don't think any balance consideration really went into the thought process.

They're still mapmove 1 in cbm but have goldcost of 12.

[chrispedersen]

Bigger fix for marignon: get rid of old age, get rid of afflictions on flagellants.

[Tifone]

Hey, the afflictions on flagellants are so damn thematic! I mean, they bash themselves all the day! If we start removing the thematic things, were do we end up?

[thejeff]

Except that they are so bad, they're almost completely useless. On an already marginal sacred unit.

Just cutting back the frequency would be nice. Ideally, I'd like to see them start uninjured (newly dedicated flagellants would be unlikely to have crippled themselves yet), but have a fairly small chance of developing an affliction every month. Preserving the thematic flavor, but leaving the troops useful, especially if you don't intend to keep them around for long:)

[cleveland]

edit: wrong thread

[Aezeal]

against removing the afflictions of flagellants

[Wrana]

Yes, Flagellants' afflictions are thematic.
Considering Men-at-arms: the usual mapmove for heavy infantry is 1. Exceptions are those who have a background of being specially trained in long marches - LA Pythium elite infantry comes to mind. Note that Arcoscephales Hoplites are Move 1, too.

[Edi]

thejeff said:
Just cutting back the frequency would be nice. Ideally, I'd like to see them start uninjured (newly dedicated flagellants would be unlikely to have crippled themselves yet), but have a fairly small chance of developing an affliction every month. Preserving the thematic flavor, but leaving the troops useful, especially if you don't intend to keep them around for long:)


This would require coding in new mechanics. Having a percent chance of getting starting afflictions is an existing mechanic, which becomes available for modding in the next patch.

[thejeff]

As I assumed. Which is why I started by suggesting just cutting back the frequency.

[chrispedersen]

Besides.. who says its thematic.
It wasn't in Dom2 at all.

Additionally, wearing horsehair and beating yourself with straps or knots - how does that lead to diease, battle frigth, limps etc.?

There are still orders of flagellent monks - 'mortification of the flesh' was what they hoped to acheive aka the will to withstand the temptations of the flesh, and to subjugate the body to the spirit.
I would argue this leads to higher morale, magic resistance and hitpoints, not afflictions.

NOWHERE in medieval history did flagellants have anywhere near the incident of affliction that Dom3 does.

[Kristoffer O]

> NOWHERE in medieval history did flagellants have anywhere near the incident of affliction that Dom3 does.

Also they did not fight, so we can remove them altogether. Problem solved http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Sombre]

Hahah.

[Ballbarian]

There are what I would consider modern equivalents to the flagellant and I can easily see where permanent afflictions could result in cases where the individual went to the extremes. Search for "Day of Ashura" on Google and YouTube if you have a strong stomach.

Regardless, the flagellant is one of my favorite units in Dom3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Tifone]

Yeah, I'm sure a whip with thorns and nails on it beating on your back all day, or walking with hooks on your skin lashed to ropes lashed to a stone, doesn't damage your body greatly. Actually, this causes you 6 wings to come out from your body. Yeah, you become a Seraph! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

P.S. Yes, they were this creative and even more, medieval compendia and paintings are quite clear. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Injured.gif

[chrispedersen]

Kristoffer O said:
> NOWHERE in medieval history did flagellants have anywhere near the incident of affliction that Dom3 does.

Also they did not fight, so we can remove them altogether. Problem solved http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Feel free KO. They are useless.

[JimMorrison]

I would maybe suggest that the Flagellants for Marignon be a different unit than the free ones you get from general rabble wandering in the woods. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif But just give them slightly higher Str and HP perhaps, to reflect how their discipline hardens their body, if they are lucky enough not to ruin it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

But, not married to that idea, just suggesting the possibility. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Lingchih]

Actually, Lizard King, that sounds like a very good idea for the Flagellants of Marignon.

As far as the move 2 for the Man at Arms, I am really just trying to suggest some meat shield unit should be able to move with the crossbowmen, who are the heart of the Marignon corps. Currently, none of the infantry can keep up with the crossbowmen (all are move 1, crossbowmen are move 2).

[chrispedersen]

well the flaggellants are move 2. iirc.

[JimMorrison]

It does actually make some sense that they would have an infantry unit that can map move 2. Even if it means that army can't be actually traveling WITH the mages, it doesn't preclude them moving up as reinforcements.

If the Man at Arms, perhaps they could be given a slightly better shield, but lighter armor? I would slightly prefer the MaA to be really heavy "Imperial Guard" types, but since all of the other infantry are basically identical other than weapon, it seems the easiest way to resolve it.

While trying to avoid the "every nation should play the same" stigma that we've been battling lately, I would actually be willing to make the assertion that every nation should have at least 1 national infantry with Prot >10 that has Map Move of 2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Flavor can get you a loooooong way, but there are other factors as well.

Hell, could even give them some kind of Levy Spear to fill the gap. It doesn't necessarily have to be their best guys. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Though, light armor + big shield appeals to me for sure.

[Wrana]

I also think that an idea of Flagellants having better Morale & MRE is quite logical. Plus better HPs than human norm possibly. These would compensate for afflictions and, I think, make them viable again..
Considering lightly armored infantry for Marignon - I don't know whether developers think it thematic, but there WERE infantry of such kind in late-Medieval Spain (16th century). They had light armor, medium shield called rondache (sp?) and espada - weapon close to Italian rapier. They were quite effective against enemy pikemen and used to clear way for their own...

[llamabeast]

I like flagellants.

[Sombre]

I like them too and say leave balancing like this to the CBM. Or rather, if you want a balance change and have good reasons, post in a CBM thread, because chances are very high KO and JK won't act on requests to them re: boosting and nerfing units.