VOTD-Still like it

[Xietor]

even though in my current mp game Fallacy, Ryleh has killed about 5 of my Hall of Fame thugs in the past 5 turns with it. And MR 27 seems to be no barrier to the the call from the grave, as I assume he is using penetration items and a high s mage combination.

My thugs have quickness and aoe weapons, but cannot kill the 600 or so mindless in the required time so they die to auto rout.

That said, it is my own fault. I have relied on these same thugs since early in the game, and it is now in the 90's.
So they have certainly gotten all the miles to which they are entitled.

And had i really wanted to keep these guys alive, I would have been more careful to keep their kill count down to something more reasonable. Used them when needed, rather then all the time.

And the fact they lived so long, and survived so many battles, actually shows the need for a spell like VOTD that can kill them. Rock, Scissors, and Paper. Point is nothing should be invincible.

[Sombre]

I agree. VoTD is tailor made to take down units who have killed too much in their lifetimes.

I believe it is a somewhat unthematic and buggy spell, but its current power level is correct. If it were to be changed I'd like to see it remain just as effective.

[Tifone]

Yeah I agree with Sombre, its power it's correct, but still i don't swallow that those souls come for vengeance, are killed again, and act as multiplied. I mean, I killed you, you returned from death for vengeance, I slayed even your soul, now REST IN F*XING PEACE! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif The thing that those are supposed to be the souls of enemies, and if yo kill the soul you have to face the soul of the enemy plus the soul of the soul, and then the soul of the soul of the soul... meh. ^^

Personally I think the battles from VotD should give normal exp, but the souls at least shouldn't count in the kill list. You may have to face them again but at least they don't multiply, should quite solve the most of the "buggy" aura around the spell.

My opinion of course. I know it is working as intended. But I find it kinda weird for the reasons I stated. And yet, if your thug killed 600 ("real") units, yes the vangeance of those angry souls will be terrible - as I agree nothing should be invincible (but some things should continue being very near of it, it's the fun of a so wide strategic game, combinations that make realultimatepowa http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )

[Xietor]

i actually agree you should not count the souls as kills. In my case it did not matter because the 600 original souls were too many anyway(:

The spell would still be effective without counting the souls as kills. But some things are hard to fix, and some things are more pressing to fix. At least that is what i have read.

When it comes to coding, i am still in 1st grade.

[Aezeal]

it would be very annoying against your pretender considering his magic paths though

[Tifone]

well it has a number of counters - i think even if you don't have the time or will to protect all your thugs, at least you must just consider to defend the pretender and the best SCs from this after some time. I think it's natural, we still protect our castles and provinces and soldiers all the time for many things, that's just one more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Xietor]

There is not much more you can do other than mr 27, unless you hide him behind domes, but then he is little value to you as a thug or sc. heh.

[MaxWilson]

Unless you can cast Undead Mastery.

-Max

[normalphil]

*Malazan Book of the Fallen Spoilers*

I've come to see it as a Dogslayers/Bridgeburners thing. Come to mention it, I wouldn't mind if it didn't have to take place in the assasination screen, or at least there being a version that doesn't.

[Xietor]

Lol at casting undead mastery with my thugs. I wish.

But having them run around with that scripted would be as bad as having them sit under a dome.

[MaxWilson]

What about Shroud + The Ark?

-Max

[Xietor]

Heh. I think i will just pay more attention in the future to killing too much chaff with my thugs and try to keep my death count below 200. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[JimMorrison]

Or just use them until they get too many kills, pass their gear to a new summon, and keep the old one around to take the fall when your opponent decides to use VoTD. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Kuritza]

VotD is 'just as powerful as it should be'?!!
How about 'its an uncounterable counter to your only counter' in many cases? Quite often you just HAVE to use your God to defend against lots of chaff units (of Rlyeh, Ermor etc). And then your God is getting hit by VotD repeatedly, and its just a matter of turns till he rolls 1 on his MR check. And you cant do anything. You cant hide him (unless he's stealthy. Dont get me started about 'move him back into your capitol, good players will have scouts in your lands), you cant protect him with decoy scouts, you cant teleport astral mages to cut silver cords, nothing.
Where's the logic? How is that balanced?

[Sombre]

It isn't like they're going to kill your pretender the first time they cast it. They'll need to spam it, user penetration items etc and may still need more than one cast to get through.

Besides if your pretender already has an obscene number of kills then he's got you through the early game. If you're that worried about it you can also take an undead pretender. I don't buy the argument that you need a pretender throughout the game to kill ermor and rlyeh chaff. You have budget thugs and mages for that - you don't need huge SCs. And if you're fighting a chaff nation you certainly can make decoys from the thugs that you are using to kill said chaff in the midgame. They are also the units with the best chance of surviving VoTD and forcing repeat casts.

[JimMorrison]

Kuritza said:
VotD is 'just as powerful as it should be'?!!
How about 'its an uncounterable counter to your only counter' in many cases? Quite often you just HAVE to use your God to defend against lots of chaff units (of Rlyeh, Ermor etc). And then your God is getting hit by VotD repeatedly, and its just a matter of turns till he rolls 1 on his MR check. And you cant do anything. You cant hide him (unless he's stealthy. Dont get me started about 'move him back into your capitol, good players will have scouts in your lands), you cant protect him with decoy scouts, you cant teleport astral mages to cut silver cords, nothing.
Where's the logic? How is that balanced?




Translation:

I have put a lot of effort into making an unkillable behemoth. He is perfect in every way, and stomps through thousands of pathetic mortals, leaving a trail of blood and gore in his wake. I am terribly offended that when I go to all the trouble to make something unkillable, that there happens to still be one single way to kill it. It is unbalanced for there to be a counter to invincibility.


Sorry Kuritza, I had to. <3

[Kuritza]

My, oh my. Arent we so very smart and ironic.

They will need to *use penetration items*. The unthinkable. What was I thinking about?! To kill a SC with items you need to *use penetration items*, as if a strain of researching a Tau 4 spell was not unbearable enough.
They may not even kill him with a first spell! Damn, horrible news. They may need to *spam* a spell that costs 3 (three!!!) astral pearls!
And, indeed, budget thugs can quite easily take on Ermor/Rlyeh hordes. Everyone knows that LA Rlyeh doesnt have paralyze-spammers, aha. And Ermor... Heck, bane lords are his downfall indeed.

And, heck, Jim, you're a GODDAMN GENIUS and you have read my mind! Yes, I have an absolutely unkillable pretender God that leaves a trail of gore and whatnot, and no its absolutely impossible to paralyze him or send some thugs with high def and eye shields or mind hunt him (heck, you'd have to research more for that, and then I can counter it in some way, no we cant accept that, no way sir), and you couldnt even cast blindness or life drain or petrify on him, no, its NOT RELIABLE ENOUGH! There should be something that is 100% guaranteed to work. Something that finds him everywhere and requires but one failed MR check, before some nasty and imbalanced spells like antimagic or iron will can buff it. And... yes! VotD, the ultimate perfect tool that will kill him via turn limit.
Now I see the truth in your words.

Thank you, Jim, you had to.

[Tifone]

Not only MR imho. When VotD comes in play, actually as far as I know, you can even recruit some of the cheapest indie commanders from the many provinces you got with your SCs and put them with him. Shouldn't this reduce exponentially the chance of your SC or thug being affected? This isn't a permanent solution of course but couldd gain you some time to try to drive your SCs into your safe provinces where he can't be spotted easily, or to attack the enemy casters of VotD...

[thejeff]

Doesn't work on VotD. It targets the commander with the most kills.
Using cheap indy commanders is a standard way to block most of the assassination type spells, but VotD bypasses it.

[Sombre]

Kuritza said:
They will need to *use penetration items*. The unthinkable. What was I thinking about?! To kill a SC with items you need to *use penetration items*, as if a strain of researching a Tau 4 spell was not unbearable enough.
They may not even kill him with a first spell! Damn, horrible news. They may need to *spam* a spell that costs 3 (three!!!) astral pearls!
And, indeed, budget thugs can quite easily take on Ermor/Rlyeh hordes. Everyone knows that LA Rlyeh doesnt have paralyze-spammers, aha. And Ermor... Heck, bane lords are his downfall indeed.




Even if you were making the best point about VoTD ever made when you respond like that no-one wants to listen to you. Besides I remember from your last rant about this that whenever anyone questions what you're saying you switch up the scenario.

It is true that VoTD is particularly nasty in the hands of LA Ermor and LA Rlyeh, but the reason for this is the larger issue of their freespawn and overall power.

[Renojustin]

Kuritza said:
My, oh my. Arent we so very smart and ironic.

They will need to *use penetration items*. The unthinkable. What was I thinking about?! To kill a SC with items you need to *use penetration items*, as if a strain of researching a Tau 4 spell was not unbearable enough.
They may not even kill him with a first spell! Damn, horrible news. They may need to *spam* a spell that costs 3 (three!!!) astral pearls!
And, indeed, budget thugs can quite easily take on Ermor/Rlyeh hordes. Everyone knows that LA Rlyeh doesnt have paralyze-spammers, aha. And Ermor... Heck, bane lords are his downfall indeed.

And, heck, Jim, you're a GODDAMN GENIUS and you have read my mind! Yes, I have an absolutely unkillable pretender God that leaves a trail of gore and whatnot, and no its absolutely impossible to paralyze him or send some thugs with high def and eye shields or mind hunt him (heck, you'd have to research more for that, and then I can counter it in some way, no we cant accept that, no way sir), and you couldnt even cast blindness or life drain or petrify on him, no, its NOT RELIABLE ENOUGH! There should be something that is 100% guaranteed to work. Something that finds him everywhere and requires but one failed MR check, before some nasty and imbalanced spells like antimagic or iron will can buff it. And... yes! VotD, the ultimate perfect tool that will kill him via turn limit.
Now I see the truth in your words.

Thank you, Jim, you had to.



Pure awesome.

[Kuritza]

Sombre said:
Even if you were making the best point about VoTD ever made when you respond like that no-one wants to listen to you. Besides I remember from your last rant about this that whenever anyone questions what you're saying you switch up the scenario.

It is true that VoTD is particularly nasty in the hands of LA Ermor and LA Rlyeh, but the reason for this is the larger issue of their freespawn and overall power.


I was merely replying to Jim's mockery. Maybe I'm easily offended, but my previous post wasnt 'like that', yet no-one listeted.
And, sorry, could you specify what do you remember about my last rant? When did I 'switch up the scenario whenever anyone questioned what I said'? There was just one occasion when I ranted about VotD. In that case, my Caelum was invaded by MA Ermor with dual-blessed shadow vestals. I responded with my SC God, who, despite being in his own dominion in a rainbow armor and antimagic amulet, failed his second MR check and was killed by the chaff AFTER they had their autorout. Thats what I said, and thats what I can repeat. Now if you can prove your accusation, please do it.

[chrispedersen]

Jim & Kurita:

In my opinion, the points you both made were diminished by the mockery of other people.

I like Votd.

I played Marignon when attacked by MA Ermor. In this game the Ermorian player had done everything possible to maiximize unit production.

Priests and mages spamming fire clouds was my answer, not introducing my pretender into the fight. I think SC's are the easier answer to coordinate - but they are not the only answer. All the races (except hinnom <wink> juries still out on that one) have weaknesses.

I imagine a bunch of mammoths would have worked too.

[Xietor]

For the middle age, which is the age i play exclusively(except Big Games), the only downside is that 2 of the nations with the easiest access to VOTD are also already 2 of the 3 most powerful, Ermor and Ryleh.

But I guess there is no help for it. It would be hard thematically to make it a nature spell. heh.

[Kuritza]

chrispedersen said:In this game the Ermorian player had done everything possible to maiximize unit production.
I imagine a bunch of mammoths would have worked too.


He didnt maximise unit production, he produced astral 9/fire 9 shadow vestals. Mammoths were absolutely useless, and thunderstrikes were hitting infantry and skellies. Iceclads were as useless as ever, too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I have won that conflict after my God fell, so in a way, you're right. But that's only because I wasnt his first target... I had living clouds, storm and Sea King's court. But were it within the first 20 turns, I would be dead meat, not even a chance.
So I dont see why should there be a spell that kills SC Gods without a chance to counter it somehow. SC Gods are your defense against double-bless rushes (or LA Ermor & Rlyeh, who are powerful enough anyway). VotD is an *overland* 4-lvl spell that makes your SC God obsolete. Where, I daresay, is an overland 4-lvl spell that makes obsolete freespawn hordes and double-blessed sacred troops?

[MaxWilson]

Kuritza said:

Sombre said:
Even if you were making the best point about VoTD ever made when you respond like that no-one wants to listen to you. Besides I remember from your last rant about this that whenever anyone questions what you're saying you switch up the scenario.




I was merely replying to Jim's mockery. Maybe I'm easily offended, but my previous post wasnt 'like that', yet no-one listeted.




I'm not sure what "listeted" is a typo for, but it's possible no one made a fuss about Jim's hyperbole because they were ignoring it. Not reacting to a post is not necessarily an endorsement of its reasoning.

-Max

[JimMorrison]

Mockery is a very strong word. Maybe I take offense to that portrayal? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

I can be a sarcastic son of a ***** at times. Somehow I imagined that putting it in italics, and then saying "sorry" afterwards, and putting the little heart, might express the fact that I didn't mean anything by it.

Just about my only experience with VoTD is it getting resisted by the enemy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Though your effuse denouncement of me did highlight one thing - that there are always options. When those options become less attractive, due to your opponent's arrangement of circumstance, then you tend to lose. If you succeed in finding a successful combination of tactics despite your enemy's best efforts, then you tend to win.

Honestly, if you are basing all of this ire off of the results of one war, then the only assumption that can be made is that you got outplayed, and the only way to insure it doesn't happen again, is to take a harder look at what you can sacrifice for what you can gain. *****ing on the forums about it, and getting all emotional when someone lightheartedly teases you, is not going to bring back your SC, or bring you any closer to victory in the next engagement. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Kuritza]

Jim, had you read what I wrote next, you'd know that I've won that war.
But I still cant find ANY reason why there should be a bugged lvl4 fire-and-forget spell that is impossible to defend from.

[Tifone]

You are not saying the truth, mister Morrison

Look

     <3     <-clearly lips in kissing position. The Kiss of Death to be more smart. This is far worst then mocking! Run for your life Kuritza! The long hand of the Mafia is already chasing you! "Don Jim non perdona"!!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Tifone]

Kuritza said:
But I still cant find ANY reason why there should be a bugged lvl4 fire-and-forget spell that is impossible to defend from.



IMHO? Because this is a game of tactics and counters, sometimes some tactic is somewhat unbalanced, sometimes the counter, if your enemies does a good use of those, you are outplayed, period. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif
And I assure you I love SCs, which other game gives you the flavour of having a giant undead bat****crazy god bashing my enemies?? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Still, as it has mainly as target the SCs, as it will be used on them and it can't be delayed with "chaff commanders", maybe it could be a little more costly, or at lvl 5 or 6, but those r just ideas. The spell is good and nice and works as intended, i am pretty sure about it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[konming]

I do not see what the fuss is about a pretender killed by VotD. Each cast is 3 pearls and requires a S3D1 mage turn. You also need to add penetration items to make it effective. The max achievable is +5 pernetration. For that you need thau4+const4. But with just const4, you can equip your pretender with rainbow armor+ amulet of antimagic, which moves his base MR to 25. Then you stay in your own domain, even a 4 domain means +2 MR. +5 penetration vs. 27 MR succeeds around 2% of the time. So you spend an average of 150 astral pearls and 50 mage turns to kill a single target. That must be quite unbalancing.

I would rather take my 150 pearls for something more useful, and the mage time alone is like 350 RP.

[Tifone]

Mmh, ok, but surely the enemy can get to Thau4 and Const4 even for the other purposes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Still nice shot sir konmig, I like when someone throws inside the mere numbers ^_^

[Kuritza]

So, you're saying that whoever casts VotD is automatically outplaying his adversary? 'Become skilled in three easy castings!' Cool, isnt it.

VotD is mainly targeting SCs because it is BUGGED. Otherwise it would be a battle mage and/or smiting prophet removal spell, and a good one. As it was initially intented, I bet.

[konming]

If he can spare 150 astral pearls and 50 mage turns on VotD and still be at least even with you in other aspects, I see no reason why he should not outplay you, with VotD or not.

[Tifone]

Kuritza said:
So, you're saying that whoever casts VotD is automatically outplaying his adversary? 'Become skilled in three easy castings!' Cool, isnt it.




...

You are becoming quite belligerant, mmh? Where did you find those words in my post? XD
How can possibly be ONE spell outplaying a player? Even you know this is not true. Because you won also ^^

It just is, if you are focusing on SCs, and your enemy is focusing ON THE EXACT COUNTER OF THEM, you are outplayed, if you don't change your strategy accordingly to make him waste his efforts to find a counter. That's basical strategy, maths, and logic ^^ And for a strange case, that's also how the game works. Boing.


Kuritza said:
Otherwise it would be a battle mage and/or smiting prophet removal spell, and a good one. As it was initially intented, I bet.



Even if that was true... You see? This game is so wide and has a so creative and smart community that they found a better use for an otherwise maybe mediocre spell! This is strategy! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Peace

[konming]

And if he spends so much on VotD that he lags behind you in other aspects, you can certainly outplay him. It is about the basic strategy -- resource allocation.

[Tifone]

Resource allocation is more basic economics, but you got the point my friend http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Tifone]

Take note I don't have anithing against you, Kuritza. Even I, as I said, think that the spell needs a little fixing, mostly for the conceptual thing of the multiplied souls ^^
I'm just saying, it seems to me that you are just attacking how the spell works because some1 made a good use of it against your strategy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif things like that happen, let the past go http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Kuritza]

Tifone said:
You are becoming quite belligerant, mmh? Where did you find those words in my post? XD




Tifone said:IMHO? Because this is a game of tactics and counters, sometimes some tactic is somewhat unbalanced, sometimes the counter, if your enemies does a good use of those, you are outplayed, period.



To do a good use of VotD, one should simply cast it. You have no options to defend, you just wait till your SC fails his roll. Maybe you get lucky and resist 49 times as Konming suggested, but most likely, you wont. Thus, you will be outplayed - according to you. Hence my words.

And, Konming, 150 astral pearls and 50 mage turns is theorycraft. In reality, things happen differently. In my case it was God with MR 26 (you forgot to count magic scale +1 that most players take) who was killed by second casting of VotD. Ermor player later claimed it was the first spell that killed my God, but I think he's wrong. So its 6 pearls and two mage turns.

So yes, I do object when people say that fire-and-forget spell is 'just fine'. Mindless units that dont die because they didnt have a commander in the first place is a bad thing.

[konming]

Then the bug is with DRN generator. With that kind of luck, your pretender can do nothing in battlefield either, two casts of paralyze and your pretender is gone. Cost: 0 astral pearls.

[konming]

At that rate, you can forget about SCs all together, since thau5 they get soul slay. Oh the horror, two casts kill one SC. I wonder why R'lyeh does not simply roll over any opponents, you know, with the uncounterable, invicinble soul slay.

[Kuritza]

konming said:
At that rate, you can forget about SCs all together, since thau5 they get soul slay. Oh the horror, two casts kill one SC. I wonder why R'lyeh does not simply roll over any opponents, you know, with the uncounterable, invicinble soul slay.


Sigh.... should I really explain such simple things? Or rather, point at them since they are well known...
Soul slay is counterable, your opponent can put decoy commanders and astral mage(s). Its absolutely perfect - it requires considerable research and there are countermeasures against it.

konming said:With that kind of luck, your pretender can do nothing in battlefield either, two casts of paralyze and your pretender is gone. Cost: 0 astral pearls.

For that, his astral mages should be in the same province with my pretender, dont they? I avoided Ermorian mages, intercepting his smaller groups with my God instead.

[JimMorrison]

Honestly? No, you did not get "outplayed", as you say, you won the war. However, you did get taken off guard. I can list a bunch of things that can cause you a ton of grief in this game if you are not totally prepared for them already.

Should VoTD be moved a little deeper, say level 6 in research? Maybe, maybe not. I'm sure you may have noticed, S+D combo is not exactly common in the game. The spell is cleverly tuned to only be somewhat economical to a very select group of nations. For everyone else, it requires their pretender to cast, or empowerment. Was it his pretender? So, you're mad that his pretender cast a spell that killed your pretender?

The more rabidly you defend your position, the more you make me feel that my original satire of your first post, needn't have been qualified as a joke, and just been left as the honest and biting satire that it is.

Did I mean it lightheartedly though? Yes, I did indeed. And you took the little jab on the chin, and feel into a berserker rage. Is it too late for the icewater?

[Kuritza]

JimMorrison said:
Should VoTD be moved a little deeper, say level 6 in research? Maybe, maybe not. I'm sure you may have noticed, S+D combo is not exactly common in the game. The spell is cleverly tuned to only be somewhat economical to a very select group of nations.


Does it change jack when you play against these nations? Are these nations weak otherwise?

JimMorrison said: For everyone else, it requires their pretender to cast, or empowerment. Was it his pretender? So, you're mad that his pretender cast a spell that killed your pretender?


Once again, I realise that you dont actually read what I write. It was MA Ermor with astral 9/fire 9 bless. Did MA Ermor with astral 9 / fire 9 bless cast VotD with his pretender?
I guess not. Mocking others without even reading what they say is usually called trolling.

JimMorrison said:
The more rabidly you defend your position, the more you make me feel that my original satire of your first post, needn't have been qualified as a joke, and just been left as the honest and biting satire that it is.


Oh, come on. Read your post again - you tried to turn my post into an outraged munchkins ravings, making me look ridiculous.
You know, when I realise I have accidently insulted somebody, I tell him I'm sorry and stop trolling. But your mockery is still there, my answer to it is there as well, so its ok.

[konming]

Kuritza said:

konming said:
At that rate, you can forget about SCs all together, since thau5 they get soul slay. Oh the horror, two casts kill one SC. I wonder why R'lyeh does not simply roll over any opponents, you know, with the uncounterable, invicinble soul slay.


Sigh.... should I really explain such simple things? Or rather, point at them since they are well known...
Soul slay is counterable, your opponent can put decoy commanders and astral mage(s). Its absolutely perfect - it requires considerable research and there are countermeasures against it.

konming said:With that kind of luck, your pretender can do nothing in battlefield either, two casts of paralyze and your pretender is gone. Cost: 0 astral pearls.

For that, his astral mages should be in the same province with my pretender, dont they? I avoided Ermorian mages, intercepting his smaller groups with my God instead.



That defeats the whole "kill all the chaff" purpose, doesn't it? His big group of chaff are most likely accompanied by astral mages. Beside, there is one small horrible spell called teleport. With your luck(or buggy DRN), two mages can teleport in and cast soul slay, and you have one dead pretender. I frankly do not know how astral mages or decoy commanders help with soul slay, did you confuse soul slay with mind hunt? Even worse, teleport is thau3. Soul slay is thau5. Not exactly tons of research...

[Tifone]

This is really starting to remind me the "unbearably dooming useless" Monkey PD thread!!!!!! XD

[Kuritza]

Ah, indeed. Soul slay, not mind hunt.

Now, what you propose now are normal routines, and they all have their countermeasures.

For Soul Slay / paralyze during a big battle you can present bigger targets on the battlefield, mammoths, for example. Mages like targeting them. Placing flying SC in the rearmost position helps, too. By the time he finishes buffing himself, mages are often cold from spamming spells.

For teleport-soul slay combo, I often script my cloud trapezing/teleporting SC for 'retreat' or 'returning' and hire some PD in that province. Thats two astral mages who will soul slay some free PD soldiers and die, unless they are golems.

Big groups of chaff arent necessarily accompanied by astral mages, dont you think? Smaller groups with double-blessed shadow vestals too, surprisingly. And if there is a mage or two after all, there are spells like seeking arrow (or is it guided arrow?).
See? Measures and countermeasures. And I this is what I love this game for: one player can launch plan A, then second player can respond with plan B, etc. But with bugged VotD there's simply no plan B, and thats exactly what I find so upsetting.
Hope my position is easier to understand now.


Tifone said:
This is really starting to remind me the "unbearably dooming useless" Monkey PD thread!!!!!! XD



Hello mr. Troll.

...
Sigh. Cicero once stated that one shouldnt present too much arguments, because it convinces listeners that speaker is uncertain himself. Alas, he forgot to mention what to do when listeners dont listen to your arguments in the first place.
At least I know what happens then. Talkers start mocking original poster without even bothering to prove him wrong. Actually, without reading his posts at all. Whole tread becomes a laughing stock, and soon the whole issue becomes a tabu, just like Bandar Log are now impossible to discuss because there's alwasy some smart face to say 'OMG ITS ALL CUZ OF MONKEY PD!!!!'

Peace. Enjoy your god-mode VotD for all I care.

[chrispedersen]

Quoting cicero doesn't make your arguments more potent.

If you VoTD makes playing SC's untenable - then you should (obviously) stop playing SC's.

*if* you play SC's, and *if* his kill count is high, and *if* your enemy can find him, because you continue to use him against him, and *if* your SC isn't outfitted with MR items, and *if* you haven't developed an VotD honeypot - then yes VotD can be effective.

thats enough ifs that I'm not too worried about it. SC's should have counters.

[thejeff]

Well, from the example given it sounds like he did have his SC outfitted with MR items. Maybe he just got unlucky, but that's apparently not enough to render VotD useless.

Even if you can't kill the SCs with VotD, if you force your enemy to stop using them against you for fear of it, either to hide or to keep his kill count low, then VotD is effective.

And I have no idea what you mean by VotD honeypot. Please explain?

So most of your long list of conditions is irrelevant. Either you stop using SCs or they die. High MR is the only real counter if you want to keep using the SC. So balance depends on how effective MR is against it.

[Kuritza]

I was quoting Cicero to stop 'Monkey PD' trolling. To you, I can only beg you to read my posts again before posting the 'equip him with MR'. MR inst reliable against a spell that finds you everywhere.
SC's do have a plenty of counters without Tau4 hide-or-die spells.
Thejeff, thank you, its good to know that somebody reads others argumentation on these boards.

[Tifone]

How do you dare calling me troll just for having made a widely recognizeable joke about a funny thing happened here in the forum.
Boy, if you are full of yourself with all your big words and quotations, at least don't start seeing enemies everywhere.
I don't know you and I would never have tried to offend what you say in such a cheap way. Learn some respect, and some auto-irony. You attacked Jim Morrison for what was clearly a joke and now me. You are not untouchable by irony, man, nobody is.

Peace.

[MaxWilson]

Kuritza said:
See? Measures and countermeasures. And I this is what I love this game for: one player can launch plan A, then second player can respond with plan B, etc. But with bugged VotD there's simply no plan B, and thats exactly what I find so upsetting.




I still don't see what's wrong with putting The Ark on your SC, aside from the obvious fact that there's only one of it. The Ark will kill unlimited numbers of zombies AFAIK, so even if you fail your MR check against VotD it does nothing except maybe make you waste some gems in battle.

-Max

[JimMorrison]

What's wrong, Max, is that obviously if you disagree with Kuritza, you haven't actually read his posts, or you would have already stopped trying to coddle him with reason and logic

Kuritza - I read every damned word, and my comprehension is excellent, thank you. Nothing anyone can say will appease you, because you got extraordinarily unlucky ONCE.

The most change I would think that VoTD needs, is to make it require astral travel by the mage, to actually "lead" the spirits to the offending leader. This way, they risk having their cord cut just as if they performed a Mind Hunt. But again, I don't really think even that is necessary.

[MaxWilson]

Do not engage in personal attacks.

-Max
(Channelling Strider)

[Kuritza]

>> How do you dare calling me troll just for having made a widely recognizeable joke about a funny thing happened here in the forum.
Yes, yes, I've seen this joke turn an attempt of Bandar Log discussion into 'Haha its all monkey PD, dont listen to this crap'. I show respect when I see it, shall we respect each other perhaps? Lets stop the 'how dare you' thingie for starters, and be civil. Sorry for the 'troll' line.

Max - that a great idea, if a little bit tricky around turn 20. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Jim, I point that people dont read my posts when they dont. I was explaining about F9/A9 Ermor and a Caelum pretender, a few posts later you tell me 'Was it his pretender? So, you're mad that his pretender cast a spell that killed your pretender?' Doesnt look like you 'read every damned word'. Please, read what I say if we are to discuss anything. And I really like your idea.

[MaxWilson]

Ah, then. Around turn 20, MR should do fine. 150 pearls to spam VotD through MR is a huge investment at that point.

-Max

[Kuritza]

6 pearls, Max, just 6. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif And it happens much more often that it might seem. Just a few days ago I had my 31 MR ghost king paralyzed by three illithids spamming mind blast.

The difference is, I knew that illithids are supposed to spam mind blast and that I open my GK to a huge risk. I took that risk voluntarily, I could opt to avoid them instead. Illithids dont come after you shaking tentacles and frying your brain when you cower in fear in your capitol, doing research and forging items. Zombies do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[MaxWilson]

How can you reliably kill an MR 27 thug with VotD and 6 pearls? That's just a fluke. I'm not sure if 150 is the right number, but it's way more than 6.

-Max

[thejeff]

Has anyone run tests on the MR part of this? I believe the MR roll for Mind Hunt Soul slays is easier than for battlefield soul slays. Is there a chance VotD works the same way?

[Kuritza]

Well, its not that reliable... Happened to me, though I admit I was unlucky. It also happened to me when I didnt knew VotD is bugged. Imagine my surprise.
Its a gamble, but its a gamble with very high stakes. Too high, in my opinion, and I dont like the fact that you have to gamble wherever you like it or not, as long as your opponent is willing to pay 3 pearls.

[MaxWilson]

Slight correction: your opponent can *force* a gamble. His job is to mess you up, that's why he's called the enemy. I don't really like VotD thematically (I think you should wake up from the nightmare at round 50) but it's not a problem IMO if your opponent has options for low-probability instant kills. Dominions is explicitly designed so that a lowly slinger can kill a Doom Horror with a single stone with the right rolls. Total invulnerability is boring and unthematic.

(I wish resistances didn't go up to 100% for the same reason.)

-Max

[Kuritza]

A slinger cannot. But I was like OMG once, when barbarians killed my Archdevil. He stood amongst them imprevious, and then just died... It took me almost an hour to notice that my opponent has armed one of barbarian chiefs with a flamebeau and he scored an instant kill. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[MaxWilson]

A slinger can, that's the whole point of open-ended die rolls.

-Max

[chrispedersen]

A VoTD honey pot is just that.

An SC that you specically kill chaff with, to keep his kill count high. Then you outfit him with your favorite methods of undead slaying.

Keep your VotD honeypot with your other SC.. and any VotD cast on the territory hits the honeypot.

[Kuritza]

So what do you propose as an unlimited-amounts-of-undead-slayer-around-turn-20-to-40?

[Coldshard]

What kind of undead are those that attack during the dream?

Having carcator the pocket lich would serve as double protection though.. he would kill off many creatures on his own and with death 5 he can put a serious hurt on a whole lot of undead http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Would having a high reach weapon and blood vengence work very well? It seems like that would kill off a whole lot of the undead in a hurry plus make it less likely an enemy spellcaster will want to try and do much to the sc...

[MaxWilson]

The only way to kill off *unlimited* amounts of undead is BE. Fire Brand + Quickening + Charcoal Shield *might* be able to handle around 300.

-Max

[Renojustin]

Well, if they hit you with it again, you've now got to face 600.

[thejeff]

That was kind of my problem with the honeytrap idea.

You have to be able to mass produce SCs capable of dealing with first enough chaff to attract it's attention over the real SC, then you're going to want the above Firebrand, quickness, Fire Shield combo to actually kill the undead, plus as much MR as possible to reduce the number of VotD that actually affect you -- to reduce the doubling affect of VotD.

And you've got to have this guy, not hidden, wherever you actually use your real SC, so he's got to participate (and survive) in your SC's real battles as well. So no teleporting you're SC around unless your honeypot can follow, etc, etc.

At this point he has to be a significant investment, that you're going to regret losing.


As far as BE for killing unlimited undead. There's no reliable way to do that more than once a turn. They take gems and if multiple VotDs get through, you'll burn them out on the first one. (Though a guy with the Ark should work, but that's hardly early and you only get one.)

[MaxWilson]

Right, being able to kill 300 undead is a mitigator to get you further into midgame (you can survive one failed MR check). It's not immunity to VotD like the Ark is.

-Max

[chrispedersen]

Hmmm I would think a quickened hastened charcoal shielded regenerating trampler would do much more.

[Strider]

MaxWilson said:
Do not engage in personal attacks.

-Max
(Channelling Strider)



And Strider is in full agreement. Keep it civil or stay quiet.

[Kuritza]

chrispedersen said:
Hmmm I would think a quickened hastened charcoal shielded regenerating trampler would do much more.


This trampler has to be undead or elemental royalty with base encumberance 0. Undead are immune to VotD.

[MaxWilson]

You don't actually have to be enc 0. It's possible to kit out a Size 5 Adonim, for instance, so that he can trample 3 or 4 squares worth of size 2 troops per turn without ever going above fatigue 14.

-Max

[chrispedersen]

You're missing the point K. VOTD the above mentioned or similar. I believe he could take out 600 or more undead in 50 turns.

Roughly (50x18) = 900 squares of movement. = 600 squares of units. Plus the charcoal square will kill a good bit.
Sure, you lose a turn for hastened...

Equip or cast items that generate battle field effects. wrathful skies... You could do a lot more.

[MaxWilson]

Where does 50x18 come from? Size 5 trampling Size 2 is 3/4 squares of trampling per turn, regardless of base AP.

-Max

[sum1lost]

Undead Mastery would work pretty well, I think.

[chrispedersen]

Interesting. Where do you get that?

I presumed quickened and hasted, and properly booted that the SC would have 36 move or so, translating into a maximum of 18 squares per turn of trampling.
Each square could have numerous size 2 opponents - that is true. However, I also ignore the fact that the defender could succed at avoiding being trampled. The 50 just refers to the # of turns.

And yes, of course I agree undead master would work - however, it is late in the game.

[JimMorrison]

I'm not sure how the movement is calculated Chris, but a 36 move critter will not trample 18 squares a turn, that would be..... insanely overpowered in most situations.

Also, that much trampling is enormously exhausting. It's not frolicking in a field, it's smashing bodies with your feet - even harder than squashing grapes, and ask anyone, it's hard work making wine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[vfb]

I don't like the doubling-up of dead on multiple casts, since it's supposedly already the eternal souls of the victims who attack. Other than that I think it's a great spell.

For your pretender (or any commander really), will Ritual of Returning (or Virtue) or Twiceborn work? I'm worried that death-by-turn-limit won't trigger these effects.

Non-pretenders killed by VotD should be in the HoF, right? Ritual of rebirth is pretty nice, mummies are tough dudes. And mummies are immune to VotD.

[JimMorrison]

Even your pretender would be in HoF, just wouldn't have a Heroic Ability. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Can they be brought back with Rebirth? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif That would be very strange.....

Also Returning sounds interesting..... But you really do have to retire them from active duty to pull that off - kinda hard to chew up chaff if you're always flying back home. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[chrispedersen]

JimMorrison said:
I'm not sure how the movement is calculated Chris, but a 36 move critter will not trample 18 squares a turn, that would be..... insanely overpowered in most situations.

Also, that much trampling is enormously exhausting. It's not frolicking in a field, it's smashing bodies with your feet - even harder than squashing grapes, and ask anyone, it's hard work making wine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Why do you say that Jim? I do realize I am rounding up in that area, but not egregiously - I only claimed that such a pretender could kill 500 or 600 undead.

36 ap in a straight line (non diagonally) 2ap when you are hasted per square = ergo a max of 18.

[Endoperez]

Trampling is more than just moving, AFAIK. Size affects how much you can trample per turn, but I don't know how.

[Kuritza]

Non-undead trampler will get too much exauston and fail.
Undead are immune.
'Honeypot' fails.

[Endoperez]

Kuritza said:
Non-undead trampler will get too much exauston and fail.
Undead are immune.
'Honeypot' fails.



Undead isn't necessarily enc 0 (Shadow Vestals are the only example I can think of), and enc 0 doesn't make you undead. There aren't that many enc 0 non-undead commander summons, though.

[Kuritza]

[b]Undead isn't necessarily enc 0 (Shadow Vestals are the only example I can think of), and enc 0 doesn't make you undead. There aren't that many enc 0 non-undead commander summons, though.


Exactly.

[vfb]

JimMorrison said:
Even your pretender would be in HoF, just wouldn't have a Heroic Ability. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Can they be brought back with Rebirth? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif That would be very strange.....

Also Returning sounds interesting..... But you really do have to retire them from active duty to pull that off - kinda hard to chew up chaff if you're always flying back home. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



Pretenders can't be turned into mummies. They can be called back from the dead of course, so have fun VotDing that 0-path Wrym, it'll just cost it some gear.

How about immortals? Does the assassination bug leave them dead if they get VotD'd?

You don't have to retire from active duty with 'Ritual of Returning' in effect. It only triggers when you take damage. I'm kind of expecting that 'death by turn 50' won't trigger the ritual though, and instead would leave you just dead. I don't expect that you'd actually take combat damage from the VotD combat.

Edit: About the 'Honeypot' plan ... I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense with the current VotD implementation, since surviving a VotD by killing everything doubles the amount of undead in the next VotD battle.

[JimMorrison]

Chris - as Endo said, Trampling is not the same as moving. I also think it is size based somehow. Example being that once elephants are mired in melee, they only trample 4-5 squares. Minotaurs and Trogs trample even less. Isn't there a movement penalty for "disengaging"? If so, that's actually it, as every time you trample, you move away from some enemies.

VFB - It's really hard to kill hundreds of chaff without taking a single point of damage. I am sure it's very annoying to be 150 corpses into a large army, and see that little red 3 pop up, and your beasty *poofs*. DRN being what it is, you are guaranteed to take a little damage here and there if you are completely surrounded. Maybe not much, but probably not 0. As far as the honeypot itself, I believe that Chris' idea was that after you defeat the first VoTD, that you load that guy up with insane MR gear, and just have him travel around with your next awesomest SC. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif That way his 30 MR or whatever is so close to never failing, that your opponent may never get him at all.

[chrispedersen]

Jim is more or less right. My contention is there are many ways of dealing with VoTD.

A honey pot is one of them. How you create the honeypot is up to you.

As for trampling, not being strictly movement - I think you're wrong. But I think trample defenses do consume movement. Might have to dddd it and see if the log gives any info.

[Karlem]

You can also add Boots of long strides to reduce the cost of movement and make the unit trample more squares. With MR 30 the probabilities run in your favor, if they use the spell against you it's tying a mage (or 3+ to give them some chances) and some gems for many turns.

However I still think that the spell is not "correct" (even knowing that it is WAD), and it's fantastic that it's one of the few things that I do not like of the game.