The Bogarus Problem

[Malarkey]

Recently, I've been trying out the cool, cool nation of Bogarus. Thematically, they are great, but choosing the right Pretender design is pretty tricky. Initially, I went with a Rainbow build in order to take cover all of Bog's summons. I ended up trying out all of those national summons and I'm not that impressed with any of the ones that I have to go out of my way to cast. None of the National Water summons are that good and the Leshy is a pretty good thug only in a forest.

Bogarus' military is generally horrible, so another inclination of mine was to go Sloth 3, but I actually think their heavy cavalry is pretty good and if I did that, I'd have no military whatsoever.

I'd definitely go Cold 3 and Growth 3.

Much of my newest round of strategy involves finding all of my high income provinces, setting them to 200% tax, then patrolling in them with the Simargl, which are pretty good patrollers. Also finding all of my higher pop provinces and blood hunting in them while patrolling them as well. I guess I'll god Blood on my Pretender because of this.

What are everyone's thoughts on Chassis/Magicks? I might still go for Nature 4 or 5 for the Leshy. Probably go Blood a little bit. Any suggestions?

Edit: Oh and I'd been going Dormant or Imprisoned, but I've heard most Bogs dont do that for lack of a strong army. Thoughts?

[K]

Bogarus is the greatest magic nation in the game. In terms of pure research, they can bust out research faster than anyone. Ever.

That being said, the cav is indeed their only good unit. I found that my initial "province taker" armies actually consisted of two smiters and some Cav.

In general, I'd go Forge Lord with W4/F4 so he can make super cheap Elemental staves and fire items, good scales, and then focus on powerful magery (imprisoned, dom8,Ord3,Prod3,Cold3,Gr3,Mis2,Mag1).

[Ming]

Malarkay,

Many people are of the opinion that Bogarus need an awake god to help early expansion. PoD is not a bad choice.

Add A1 for air shield since high damage missiles are common in LA.

Bogarus has excellent site searchers and so should have high gem income but only E1 available in its recruitable mages. So E2 for your pretender is worthy of consideration to get dwarven hammer through earth boots. This should leave enough design points for a high dominion and good scales.

Don't rely too much on Bogarus' national troops as they are generally inferior to those of other nations. Use your awake pretender to hold off any early invasion and research battle magic quickly.

[Renojustin]

Not only do you need an awake pretender for expansion, but Bogarus is also on the shortlist of Nations To Rush. I just took them out pretty quickly; would have had their capital at turn 7 if I didn't make a mistake, but had it at turn 9 anyway.

An awake pretender is necessary for Bogarus's survival in the early game so that you actually have a chance to use their awesome magic powers later. Otherwise, they simply have nothing - NOTHING that can stop an early rush by any dunce with a dual bless.

[K]

Renojustin said:
Not only do you need an awake pretender for expansion, but Bogarus is also on the shortlist of Nations To Rush. I just took them out pretty quickly; would have had their capital at turn 7 if I didn't make a mistake, but had it at turn 9 anyway.

An awake pretender is necessary for Bogarus's survival in the early game so that you actually have a chance to use their awesome magic powers later. Otherwise, they simply have nothing - NOTHING that can stop an early rush by any dunce with a dual bless.



There aren't many nations that can survive a turn 6 Dual Bless rush even with an awake god. I wouldn't be married to that strategy.

[JimMorrison]

One might almost say "there aren't many awake gods that can survive a turn 6 dual-bless rush". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

I don't think really the point is to insure you can always "handily defeat" your most likely rushers. But rather, to have a strategy and setup that will hopefully hurt them and slow them down enough, to deter them from screwing their entire game by hitting the speed-bump of your nation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Renojustin]

Yeah man, at least give yourself a chance. You KNOW that someone is going to come after you... imo you're really going to have to prepare for that somehow and an awake pretender is the only way.

[K]

Basically, a Turn 6 god is not even a speedbump since he doesn't have any good equipment yet.


But, considering that in the LA the only real bless nation is Mictlan, I think you can rest easy.

That being said, Bogarus province defense is very good. I just ran a test with twenty dual-blessed jaguar warriors + initial army vs. PD 35, your crap initial archers, and two Smiters and had no problems handily cleaning up Mictlan's troops.

[Renojustin]

There are lots of "turn 6 gods" that are fantastic fighters. So many that it wouldn't even be very productive to start listing them. But I'd invite others to. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[DrPraetorious]

Mictlan is definitely the *best* of the LA bless rushers, but Midgard, Gath, Patala and T'ien Ch'i all have sacreds good enough to sustain a double-bless rush that will eat Bogarus alive, and they'd be fools not to use it if they're your neighbor. You might also espect a rush out of Ermor, Man or Utgard, since you-have-to-die.

Bogarus can have the Wyrm, Cyclops, Manticore, or any flavor of Dragon. An awake pretender from this list is fearsome in early expansion even without equipment - and, even without equipment, might tip the balance against Man, Utgard, Midgard or Patala. But against Mictlan, T'ien Ch'i, Ermor or Gath, barely a speed bump.

An *equipped* Cyclops is a horse of an entirely different color, also with spikes and machine guns, but that's not possible by turn 6.

[K]

Renojustin said:
There are lots of "turn 6 gods" that are fantastic fighters. So many that it wouldn't even be very productive to start listing them. But I'd invite others to. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Bogarus has a choice of 30 gods, and I note that only 4-6 of them are decent or good SCs. What equipment would you give them on Turn 6 that will make them viable (realize that you have no Earth gems at home and E1 on one flavor of mage)? How much magic would they need?

Basically, they have one choice: an E10 Cyclops with no equipment. He's good, but he won't stand up to any decent Turn 6 Dual-Bless rush wgo can just fatigue him out and crit him to death. Heck, he won't even stand up to a decent amount of crossbowman or calvary.

[Micah]

If you're proposing sending in a god solo and naked to stop double blessed jags you're thinking about it wrong. Another 5 provinces worth of expansion is another 500 or so gold on turn 6, along wth faster resource income to your cap and more indies...another 50 archers in your army is gonna put a dent in a block of 20 jags.

The extra dom from an awake pretender will give you a better chance to have friendly dominion, and that +1 morale is vital when dealing with PD level troops that are just there to die and slow up the assault. Putting a cyclops fresh from +5 dom in the middle of a formation is unlikely to get him killed, but it's keeping 3 jags tied up swinging at a rock instead of slaughtering PD. Having a dragon that can fly around and pick off provinces will do a lot of economic damage...it doesnt't take too long for Bogarus to get up to some nice evo or flaming arrows with their 12 RP mages, so you only have to stop one rush and you're in the game...5 provinces on turn 6 is a pretty big deal, even if your pretender isn't gonna fight off the rush singlehandedly.

[sector24]

You can have an enchanted sword, fire plate, and a pendant of luck on turn 6. Might be too late, but then again might not...

[K]

sector24 said:
You can have an enchanted sword, fire plate, and a pendant of luck on turn 6. Might be too late, but then again might not...



Not the most impressive SC equipment, and it means you shot straight for Con 2 and made everything on Turn 5 to equip on Turn 6. Without equipment, your Turn 6 Cyclops is lucky to not be blind or dead because he hit something surprising that didn't show up like some calvary or crossbowman.

[sector24]

I'm not sure what you are arguing. Should Bogarus players give up on a military counter against the rush since apparently nothing is going to work except diplomacy and the divine pity of their neighbors? Or should they just do whatever they want because there aren't a lot of dual bless rushers in the late age? I'm kidding (a little).

Personally, I would take an awake PoD with D5/E4 and get Con 2 immediately just for the deterrent effect that it might have. Anything less and you may as well have not bothered signing up to play. Maybe you're going to get rolled, but at least you put up a good fight and maybe earned a little respect from your opponent when the next game rolls around.

[K]

I'm arguing (probably in vain) that you don't need a poorly equipped SC to beat back an early Bless rush with this nation. They have good province defense, archers, and access to Smiters, and that's a perfectly good counter to Bless Rushers.

In my mind, Awake SC gods are a gamble for people who can't come up with a more reliable strategy. Add that to the fact that it messes with your mid- and endgame, and I just can't recommend it.

[JimMorrison]

So you're saying that you would trade a 50% chance of surviving the early game with a 10% chance of victory, for an 80% chance of surviving the early game, with a 5% chance of victory? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

I really have to say, there isn't much in the game that will earn less respect from me in the game, than someone running around with an awake PoD. Not that I disrespect those people, but it's like going out and buying yourself a Corvette on your 40th birthday. >.>

Generally in my experience - it's highly improbable to have your awake SC, with dom9-10 and self buffing ability - and also have good enough scales that you can support your conventional army expanding AND have mages for researching and eventual forging. Hell, I have tried out so many builds for 10-12 turns, and depending on quality of neighboring provinces, sometimes a really high scales build has trouble keeping up with mages.

With Cold3, a D5/E4 PoD with 10 dom has 53 design points left over. That's 1 scale. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif So do you go Sloth3 to get Magic1 and Order 3? So your opponent knows, as potentially frightening as your pretender is, you have squat for troops. Yes, you can still claim that the awake PoD is still an effective deterrent. People know that even if they can take you, you can make it costly and painful for them, negating the benefit of performing the early rush. I would think that having large numbers of highly mobile and multi-purpose cavalry units, would be able to provide similar deterrent effect, especially if your research is doing well.

I'm not trying to claim that an awake pretender is never worth it - obviously people often win with them - I am just saying that if your primary incentive is to use it to dissuade people from rushing you out, it's more of a placebo effect in most cases, than anything else. I'd just rather get eliminated by an early rush several times in a row (how improbable would that be?) before finally getting a good solid start, than to spend 2 months playing a nation with gimped scales, clinging to the small shred of a chance that I might actually ultimately win the game.


I guess here is the crux of my argument:

Most of the highly experienced MP vets recommend an awake pretender for Bogarus.

Bogarus has not won a single MP game yet.

Therefore, it seems to me, that playing what looks like the longer odds of going for better scales or a more magically apt pretender, may be the missing link in their success.


I know I'm crazy, but that doesn't interfere with my ability to use the internets! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[JimMorrison]

K said:
I'm arguing (probably in vain) that you don't need a poorly equipped SC to beat back an early Bless rush with this nation. They have good province defense, archers, and access to Smiters, and that's a perfectly good counter to Bless Rushers.

In my mind, Awake SC gods are a gamble for people who can't come up with a more reliable strategy. Add that to the fact that it messes with your mid- and endgame, and I just can't recommend it.




You just summed up most of what I was posting, without getting sidetracked with all the gory little details. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I need to work on that, I get so effuse that I practically beg for someone to pick at my logic, rather than just cleanly laying down a position. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Good show!

[chrispedersen]

What is your Bogarus Pretender and army to stand up to a turn 6 bless.

Wonder if anyone could run it .. like they ran the SC competition...

[sector24]

We can agree to disagree, but try a build like this:

Awake PoD
5 Death
4 Earth
Dominion 10
Order 3
Sloth 1
Cold 3
Growth 1
Luck 0
Drain 2
13 points remaining

Bogarus prefers cold 2 and they are arguably the best nation to take drain with. Their research is insane, and most powerful magic is done with communions so you are in control of your own fatigue situation by using more slaves.

Your starting national troops can only take the easy strength 5 independents. You will probably be supplementing that army rather than building a 2nd expansion force, so all you can hope for is 1 province per turn. If someone sees that you are their neighbor and they take a look at the score graphs, you are dead. An awake PoD doubles your expansion rate, and unlike a cyclops it can fly and pick provinces where the chance of afflictions is lower.

Bogarus' mid-game and end-game are already secure. They just need to survive the first 20 turns, and part of that is convincing your opponents that you're not the easiest target on the map (which you are).

Maybe you're a silver-tongued devil and you can convince your neighbors to leave you alone, or maybe you'd prefer getting knocked out on turn 9 if you can't win the whole thing, but if either is the case Bogarus doesn't sound like your cup of tea anyway.

[Ming]

K,

I am a little confused by your comments.

If you think Bogarus's troops and PD have a good chance of defending itself, then the addition of an awake god must improve that chance substantially. Please bear in mind that the awake god need not fight alone.

On the other hand, if you think Bogarus is not even a speed bump with an awake god, than it would be even less without one.

I am not necessary saying that you are wrong, but you might wish to clarify your seemingly contradictory statements.

[Lingchih]

JimMorrison said:
Bogarus has not won a single MP game yet.




Hold your horses. Micah is playing Bogarus now in Artifacts. I would never count him out playing any nation.

[chrispedersen]

I think an undead pretender is a poor choice against a powerful priest bless strategy.

My own submission follows = )

[Renojustin]

Undead pretenders aren't vulnerable to priest banishings as such but can be suspectible to nastiness if the opposing nations have some Death.

[JimMorrison]

Lingchih said:

JimMorrison said:
Bogarus has not won a single MP game yet.




Hold your horses. Micah is playing Bogarus now in Artifacts. I would never count him out playing any nation.



Hey, I'm just saying! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif It would lend a lot of weight to the "Bogarus needs an awake SC" camp, if they had actually won an MP game with that strat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

But I'm doubting anyone would do an awake pretender in the Artifacts scenario, so best we can hope for there is evidence that the awake SC is NOT needed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Unless Micah's idea of an insane prank, is to gear out a -20hp rainbow chassis on turn 2 and go to town. o.O

[Renojustin]

JimMorrison said:
It would lend a lot of weight to the "Bogarus needs an awake SC" camp, if they had actually won an MP game with that strat.



Kind of begs the question, Jim, how many games have you won with any strategy? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[K]

Ming said:
K,

I am a little confused by your comments.

If you think Bogarus's troops and PD have a good chance of defending itself, then the addition of an awake god must improve that chance substantially. Please bear in mind that the awake god need not fight alone.

On the other hand, if you think Bogarus is not even a speed bump with an awake god, than it would be even less without one.

I am not necessary saying that you are wrong, but you might wish to clarify your seemingly contradictory statements.



Sure. I'm saying that fighting off a dual Bless attacker is going to come from your troops, PD, overall unit placement and strategy, and whatever magic you can muster. An SC pretender is remarkably weak early in the game without the proper equipment, so spending points on one for a hypothetical Turn 6 attack is a fine way of killing your late game for almost nothing in return. For a laugh, send in a Dom10 PoD without equipment against a small Bless Army backed by some archers and see how badly he gets hurt.

Sure, it will help (assuming it doesn't get killed or Feebleminded against a lucky indie). But, having good scales will also help by letting you get more gold and resources for troops.

The "Awake SC Pretender" strategy is about equipping them decently to take care of trouble provinces or to kill moderately sized enemy armies on Turns 10-20. If you are worried about Turn 6, then an Awake SC Pretender is not worth the little help it offers.

[chrispedersen]

Father of Winters
-3 -3 -3 (cold) x +3 luck, +2 Magic.
Dominion 9. W-10.

So look - we already know the Bogarus troops are well - bogus. Looking at the nation, you see the slimmest ray of hope.

All the troops are cold resistent (50). They have a cheap sacred. (10/3 thats sacred chaff).

And the Father of Winders has Cold Power. So going into a 4-5 dominion cold 3 province.. he has 150+ hp, chill 25, defense 27.

So the premise here is: To take a clue from the name - the Age of Heros. And indeed 3/5 times I tried this I got a national hero in the first 6 turns.

Expand cautiously. Preach prodigiously. You have cheap H3 priests. Use them as smiters. Use the sacred as chaff allowing the chill to kill.

You're going to take a lot of chaff casualties. But oddly, it allows you to do relatively better in hcav provinces.

But avoid undead with your pretender - and be very very careful. He's very fragile.

You might also try a death -3, and screw your army completely.

[Jazzepi]

Death 3 is the worst idea for Bogarus. Their good mages are old.

Jazzepi

[Chris_Byler]

DrPraetorious said:
Mictlan is definitely the *best* of the LA bless rushers, but Midgard, Gath, Patala and T'ien Ch'i all have sacreds good enough to sustain a double-bless rush that will eat Bogarus alive, and they'd be fools not to use it if they're your neighbor. You might also espect a rush out of Ermor, Man or Utgard, since you-have-to-die.


They won't know they're your neighbor until *after* they create their god. Committing your nation to a blessrush on the off chance you *might* be next to Bogarus seems like a weak move - unless you expect those nations to blessrush regardless of who their neighbors are? Even then, it's just the crapshoot of landing next to a rusher.

Taking an awake god as rush insurance is only sensible if (a) it will work and actually stop rushes, and (b) won't cost you so much that you'll lose even if you survive the opening. Based on this thread it looks like awake gods for Bogarus are questionable on *both* counts.

Of course map size, indy strength and other settings matter too.

[Renojustin]

Bogarus's military is at such a disadvantage that there's no question that 90% of the nations in the game can successfully overwhelm you early, even if they are not a 'rush' nation.

Your scales don't do you a whole lot of good when you're beat back into your capital by turn 10.

When the choice is between super scales and no counter to this, thereby commiting yourself to a short, violent death, or mediocre scales and an effective counter, if through anti-army or anti-indy capability - and there certainly ARE pretenders that are more than capable of either one - I know which one I would pick. And I would be right.

[Ming]

K,

Thank you for your clarification.

I would like to offer a somewhat different perspective:

1. An awake pretender would give you more gold than strong scales by virtue of a faster expansion as long as you have O3 and G3. Please bear in mind that Bogarus has a weak starting army and would prefer C3 anyway because of its cold resistance troops. So your extra design points would only go to production, luck and magic scales, none of which is critical, or to magic ability. So an awake pretender is likely to be trading more gold and stronger start for less magic, not for less gold.

2. You would not be using your awake pretender to attack a dual blessed army without equipment. You would be using it to defend behind a 20 (minimum) PD and whatever troops you can scrape together.

I haven't tested this, but I would expect that at turn5 or 6 your awake pretender + PD + troops would have a very good chance of successfully defending against a (by definition smallish at such an early stage) dual blessed invading army without any equipment.

[sector24]

This thread has been very interesting so far. I'm surprised by the diversity of playstyles, and I had not considered recruiting the smiters for the first few turns to supplement the weak power of your starting army. Might be nice for frying some knights early on, but it does prevent you from getting to an early research goal like Thunderstrike spam or Construction 2.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a good Bogarus build that does not use an awake SC god? I'd like to try out these new ideas but I'm still skeptical that Bogarus can hold off a determined attacker without one.

[JimMorrison]

Renojustin said:

JimMorrison said:
It would lend a lot of weight to the "Bogarus needs an awake SC" camp, if they had actually won an MP game with that strat.



Kind of begs the question, Jim, how many games have you won with any strategy? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



Oh rhetoric is fun. As you can see by the HoF, no one has won an MP game with Bogarus, including me. How many times have you lost an MP game as Bogarus, with an awake pretender? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Part of my point was that if you are going to use the SC defensively only, then the issue is essentially moot anyways. You are trading a defensive bonus against small highly blessed armies - at the expense of making yourself more vulnerable to strong scales strats. What are you going to do if an O3/P3/G3 Marignon shows up with 200 crossbowmen? That sort of raw firepower can rout a PD in one volley, and kill a pretender with the next.

There is a simple rule in dominions - you can't be prepared for every contingency, at any given time. That being the case, it just seems kind of silly to base your entire strat around what you think is the biggest threat in the first 6-8 turns. I can't believe I'm the only one who thinks that if you're going to be eliminated, that's the best time for it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif I'd much rather have a really strong mid-late game with a shaky start, than to have a misleadingly strong start, with a late game that is weaker than optimal. You can argue that it isn't, but simply taking Drain, losing 2 RP per researcher for the entire game - may not be hurting you, in the way that you look at it, but it is compromising what is considered to be one of the greatest strengths of Bogarus. If your build is able to keep that 1Magic instead, your research will be utterly insane, and you won't have to survive very long to start leveraging that power.

[Micah]

Good expansion gives you a good mid/end game. SCs give you a good expansion rate, especially with a nation like Bogarus. +100% provinces in the first year is worth more than +10% income. You can also cover all the important scales just fine with an SC build.

[Dedas]

I found out that playing Bogarus as Maverni (in Baalz guide) was very successful. That means using good scales to buy as many bodies as possible, boost them and thus survive early game. Later on you use your mages and excellent research advantage to win.

[Edi]

Bogarus can recruit absolute hordes of chaff and there is a quality all of its own to a great quantity of their archers, especially if they manage to snag some good indies soon.

Some of the problems with Bogarus are that they have no access to Earth, Water or Nature magic, so those should be covered by the pretender. An awake SC pretender is a pretty big risk, but could pay off. A straight research rush to Evo 2 or 3, mercenaries and hordes of chaff can get you somewhere, depending. Archers backed by the city guard and then the cav units can be fielded rather quickly in large numbers, which may allow you to take on other nations even if they are going for a bless strategy.

I've found Bogarus interesting to play in SP, but that does not translate well to MP, of course.

As far as the comments about how many MP games Bogarus has won, that's a red herring. The nation has been in for only two patches and not been in any number of MP games compared to most other winners and since unlike some other nations, does not EAT EVERYTHING, there is going to be a learning curve and wating period before see it win. Remember that in Dom-PPP Caelum was once considered the weakest nation. Then somebody figured out Quickness + Summon Lesser Air Elemental and the rest is history (and why lesser elementals cost gems to summon since Dom2).

[JimMorrison]

Edi said:
As far as the comments about how many MP games Bogarus has won, that's a red herring.



Well it would be of dubious value if it were used as an argument for Bogarus needing to be "fixed" or otherwise changed in order to be competitive.

However, it is not. I was just pointing out that people can debate different theories for the nation all they want, when someone says they need X in order to be competitive, then that begs the question, "how competitive are they, with X?", and so far the data shows that they are not conclusively more competitive with X, than with Y or Z. Which leads to a more open-minded discussion of the relative merits of these capital letters at the end of the alphabet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[K]

Micah said:
Good expansion gives you a good mid/end game. SCs give you a good expansion rate, especially with a nation like Bogarus. +100% provinces in the first year is worth more than +10% income. You can also cover all the important scales just fine with an SC build.



True, but you have to to be able to keep those provinces. A single SC is fodder for any number of countermeasures while sustained growth backed by mixed forces is much harder to counter.

[K]

Ming said:
2. You would not be using your awake pretender to attack a dual blessed army without equipment. You would be using it to defend behind a 20 (minimum) PD and whatever troops you can scrape together.

I haven't tested this, but I would expect that at turn5 or 6 your awake pretender + PD + troops would have a very good chance of successfully defending against a (by definition smallish at such an early stage) dual blessed invading army without any equipment.



I'd invite you to run a few tests using 30 PD + starting army + 20 archers and some Standard units + two H3 Eparchs scripted with Smite. They do a perfectly fine job killing 20 dual-Blessed + Prophet + starting army attackers (no losses in my tests).

A god on the front line in this scenario is more likely to get killed than to contribute meaningfully. Heck, Bogarus's ability to recruit H3 priests make them equally able to beat an SC god in the early game.

[chrispedersen]

Edi said:
Bogarus can recruit absolute hordes of chaff and there is a quality all of its own to a great quantity of their archers, especially if they manage to snag some good indies soon.

Some of the problems with Bogarus are that they have no access to Earth, Water or Nature magic, so those should be covered by the pretender.



huh? Doesn't Bogus get access to alchemists - which as I recall are E1.

Besides, I'd rather look at it as they DO get access to Astral, Death, and Blood - which are the three essentials IMO>

[Renojustin]

K said:

Micah said:
Good expansion gives you a good mid/end game. SCs give you a good expansion rate, especially with a nation like Bogarus. +100% provinces in the first year is worth more than +10% income. You can also cover all the important scales just fine with an SC build.



True, but you have to to be able to keep those provinces. A single SC is fodder for any number of countermeasures while sustained growth backed by mixed forces is much harder to counter.



So basically you're arguing that you shouldn't get the provinces if you can't hold them against a determined attack? That's fallacious.

1. You can continue to conquer enemy or indy provinces with your awake pretender, forcing them to retake them against cheap PD, jacking up the taxes in a raiding scenario.

2. You always have more total gold because of the fact that you got the provinces. Your sustained growth backed up by mixed forces is only better for the SC being there and may be your only viable option to achieve this considering your military.

3. An awake SC will lend disincentive to invasion, whereas if you do not have one, you are approaching 100% sure to get invaded by anyone that spots you. That's not a good mid-to-endgame strategy at all.

4. If you can't hold them with a pretender PLUS everything else, you can't hold them at all. So how exactly do you propose to spend those points any better?

I absolutely annihilated Bogarus by turn 10 where the opposing player didn't make any mistakes, and I used no devastating or cheap strategy. No bless. No awake pretender. Their army just ISN'T good enough to prevent it against an average military, and they even used their mages in their defense. So it's telling that you are counseling people to not take an awake pretender and offering no competitive strategy in return. I would too if I wanted to beat Bogarus.

[JimMorrison]

That's anecdotal - a single case with not even detailed analysis of the position. I mean I am sure at the time you didn't sit down and think through his build, and check out every one of his provinces - nor interview the populace of his provinces to discover if he had to face any particularly nasty indies, or had barbarians attack his castle, or god knows what constitutes "didn't make any mistakes", which is a hell of a claim. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I must say I find it amusing that it's scoffed at to use diplomacy as your early game strat anyways. Supposing it is one of your best options as Bogarus, so? It's really not THAT often that you start next to an instant rusher, that's for sure. Even when you do, to be on someone's capital so soon, often means that person mobilized against the first person that their scouts found - at most the second. So that person is not looking for Bogarus, they're just looking for a province with a castle in it, and there's a good chance they didn't even see your awake pretender if you have one - if you're expanding the other direction. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

I really don't think it's fair, until there is statistical evidence (like a Bogarus win using *any* strat), for anyone to imply their strat is competitive, and another is not.

[Renojustin]

-How is it not anecdotal if Bogarus wins, but it is anecdotal if Bogarus loses? Both provide data. You can't have it both ways.

-People don't have to use diplomacy with or against Bogarus, because the best and most sure way to power is by conquering the easy target. Which Bogarus certainly is in early game, especially without an awake pretender.

[chrispedersen]

K said:

Ming said:
2. You would not be using your awake pretender to attack a dual blessed army without equipment. You would be using it to defend behind a 20 (minimum) PD and whatever troops you can scrape together.

I haven't tested this, but I would expect that at turn5 or 6 your awake pretender + PD + troops would have a very good chance of successfully defending against a (by definition smallish at such an early stage) dual blessed invading army without any equipment.



I'd invite you to run a few tests using 30 PD + starting army + 20 archers and some Standard units + two H3 Eparchs scripted with Smite. They do a perfectly fine job killing 20 dual-Blessed + Prophet + starting army attackers (no losses in my tests).




the problem is starting armies with rare exceptions are not at all what you will usually be facing.


As I recall.. voi archers are significantly worse than standard archers.. Resource 5, morale 8?

[K]

Renojustin said:

K said:

Micah said:
Good expansion gives you a good mid/end game. SCs give you a good expansion rate, especially with a nation like Bogarus. +100% provinces in the first year is worth more than +10% income. You can also cover all the important scales just fine with an SC build.



True, but you have to to be able to keep those provinces. A single SC is fodder for any number of countermeasures while sustained growth backed by mixed forces is much harder to counter.



So basically you're arguing that you shouldn't get the provinces if you can't hold them against a determined attack? That's fallacious.

1. You can continue to conquer enemy or indy provinces with your awake pretender, forcing them to retake them against cheap PD, jacking up the taxes in a raiding scenario.



Maybe you can and maybe you can't. In the early game an SC pretender can be killed by something as mundane as some of the readily available LA crossbowmen or calvary set to Attack or Fire Large Monsters. Taking indies is a whole different proposition from taking enemy provinces.

Check out some of the LA guides floating around. Baalz has a nice LA Atlantis guide that details easy ways to kill SCs using only Atlantis's base troops, and even weaker nations like Patala can kill an SC with minimal research and a single mage casting Gifts from Heaven.

In the short term, holding provinces is not a big deal. I recently killed a skilled opponent by letting him take 80% of my provinces while I made a determined attack towards his capital. Once I took it and stopped his production of national troops, retaking my lost provinces was not even an issue.

SCs are good at taking provinces in the short term, and terrible at holding them in the long term.


Renojustin said:
2. You always have more total gold because of the fact that you got the provinces. Your sustained growth backed up by mixed forces is only better for the SC being there and may be your only viable option to achieve this considering your military.



I've noted several times that adding smiters to an army vastly increases their ability to take Indies. I don't know what your standards are, but I find that making an army that can take a province a turn every other turn is perfectly fine by most people's standards.


Renojustin said:
3. An awake SC will lend disincentive to invasion, whereas if you do not have one, you are approaching 100% sure to get invaded by anyone that spots you. That's not a good mid-to-endgame strategy at all.



Actually, an Awake SC tells me "wow, this guy has no resources or gold or research since it's tied into building up an early game SC. I should kill him now when he's weak before he gets good equipment."


Renojustin said:
4. If you can't hold them with a pretender PLUS everything else, you can't hold them at all. So how exactly do you propose to spend those points any better?

I absolutely annihilated Bogarus by turn 10 where the opposing player didn't make any mistakes, and I used no devastating or cheap strategy. No bless. No awake pretender. Their army just ISN'T good enough to prevent it against an average military, and they even used their mages in their defense. So it's telling that you are counseling people to not take an awake pretender and offering no competitive strategy in return. I would too if I wanted to beat Bogarus.



Well, not making mistakes is not the same as having a good strategy. A player more experienced with Bogarus may have been able to do more with it.

For example, ask yourself these questions:

1. Did he use Smiters in his armies?

2. Were his Voi Archers in the front of the battlefield or in the middle/back?

3. Did he keep at least five Styags with his army (these are the non-commanders with Standards)?

4. Did he force you to meet him in battlefields with his Province Defense built up?

5. Did he have good Production scales, and did he use low resource units like the various Voi or the high resource Peshtsi?

And some overall strategy questions:

6. Did he concentrate his forces, or did he meet you in several battles?

7. Did he buy and use mercenaries?

8. Did he ever make a viable rush to your capital, or did he try to retake his lost provinces?

9. What were his chances of events(Order and Luck scales), and is there evidence that he had any bad events strike in the first few turns?

10. Could he have had very strong indies near his capital, thus slowing his expansion?



I know that if he had mages and some magic as you said, then he probably didn't have any smiters. If he made that choice, then he was probably unfamiliar with Bogarus's other strengths. I can see how easily someone might be seduced by the long-term power of good research and they would avoid the short-term power of Smiters in the early game.

I don't expect or want any answers to these questions, but I want you to mull them over for your own edification. The issue is more complex than what you learned in one game with a single Bogarus player.

[Kuritza]

I've won a VP MP game with Bogarus, in Russian community though. With an awake Wyrm. I dont think Bogarus is any good without an SC God.
Sloth is, in my opinion, completely out of question, your strength is in numbers. But Bogarus can afford drain 2 relatively easily (without CB mod).
Voi archers are indeed worse that standart archers. But their morale is mostly irrelevant, their precision and damage can be buffed, so in the end sheer numbers can outweigh everything (if you can solve starvation issues...)
Bogarus spearman are quite good as arrow fodder.
I am not sure if Malaya Druzhina is fixed in the last version of CB. I remember they lost lances some time ago, getting composite bow instead (and becoming quite crappy).
Bogarus can summon Arch Devils, but Ice Devils make more sense with cold 2 scale (and probably strong dominion). If you can think of some way to summon or recruit a water mage, or if your pretender has some water, empower him with blood and summon Ice Devils.

Renojustin said:I absolutely annihilated Bogarus by turn 10 where the opposing player didn't make any mistakes, and I used no devastating or cheap strategy. No bless. No awake pretender. Their army just ISN'T good enough to prevent it against an average military, and they even used their mages in their defense.


Well, you were LA Rlyeh, and that DOES count... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
And Bogarus had some weird pretender, like Vampire queen with just blood and death if my memory serves me right. In other words, not a SC pretender.

[Ming]

K,

Thank you for your invitation of considering Bogarus’ smiters. It is something that is easy to overlook.

However, I did consider the possibility of using eparch for Bogarus extensively. After all, I advocated the use of bishop fish’s smiting ability in the early game for MA Oceania. So using smiters is something that I would definitely take into account. There are two major differences between the two cases:

First, everybody is map move one underwater, so bishop fish’s map move of one is not a handicap. Eparch’s map move of one is.

Second (and more important), battlemagic is much less important underwater (i.e. for MA Oceania) while one of Bogarus’ biggest advantage over other nations is its fast research and therefore earlier access to battlemagic. Without its speed, its research is only average – bear in mind starets are not particularly cost effective since it is old and not sacred. Using eparch would be giving up on Bogarus’ one major advantage over others. That is not to say that eparchs shouldn’t be used in an emergency - just that it should be avoided if possible.

The fact that eparch cost 175 gold while bishop fish cost only 120 also matters on the margin.

IMHO, an awake pretender pays for itself by enabling Bogarus to expand much faster, the additional combat value in defense of a rush is just icing on the cake. An awake pretender solves Bogarus' problem of weak starting troops, and poor national troops in general, in one stroke. Please bear in mind that part of the cost of an effective awake pretender is high dominion – something that Bogarus need anyway to take advantage of its cold scale and cold resistant troops. Also bear in mind that for Bogarus the pretender will get some equipment by turn 6 or 7 by researching construction 2 first – unlike the use of eparch, researching construction 2 first provides air quills, and so does not slow research in the long run.

Finally, against invaders an awake pretender would be scripting air shield, hold, hold, (hold) attack rear instead of fighting in the front on turn one.

Let me know if you still disagree.

[K]

Ming said:
K,

Thank you for your invitation of considering Bogarus’ smiters. It is something that is easy to overlook.

However, I did consider the possibility of using eparch for Bogarus extensively. After all, I advocated the use of bishop fish’s smiting ability in the early game for MA Oceania. So using smiters is something that I would definitely take into account. There are two major differences between the two cases:

First, everybody is map move one underwater, so bishop fish’s map move of one is not a handicap. Eparch’s map move of one is.

Second (and more important), battlemagic is much less important underwater (i.e. for MA Oceania) while one of Bogarus’ biggest advantage over other nations is its fast research and therefore earlier access to battlemagic. Without its speed, its research is only average – bear in mind starets are not particularly cost effective since it is old and not sacred. Using eparch would be giving up on Bogarus’ one major advantage over others. That is not to say that eparchs shouldn’t be used in an emergency - just that it should be avoided if possible.

The fact that eparch cost 175 gold while bishop fish cost only 120 also matters on the margin.

IMHO, an awake pretender pays for itself by enabling Bogarus to expand much faster, the additional combat value in defense of a rush is just icing on the cake. An awake pretender solves Bogarus' problem of weak starting troops, and poor national troops in general, in one stroke. Please bear in mind that part of the cost of an effective awake pretender is high dominion – something that Bogarus need anyway to take advantage of its cold scale and cold resistant troops. Also bear in mind that for Bogarus the pretender will get some equipment by turn 6 or 7 by researching construction 2 first – unlike the use of eparch, researching construction 2 first provides air quills, and so does not slow research in the long run.

Finally, against invaders an awake pretender would be scripting air shield, hold, hold, (hold) attack rear instead of fighting in the front on turn one.

Let me know if you still disagree.



I do.

First, the Eparch can get you the early expansion. Map move 1 is perfect for taking a province a turn.

Then you move over to your Starets. Even if you wasted the first six turns making Eparchs, the next six turns of Starets will more than recover any lost ground on research.

Then you send your Eparchs into position for your first war. By then you have a second castle pumping out Masters of Names for great research, and when you meet your enemies around turn 17 or 19 you teleport in with powerful magic backing you up and if you were smart you now have those Eparch on Carpets of Flying with something interesting as guard.

And if a war happens before that, Eparchs on Smite duty are going to serve you better than a poorly equipped SC god and bad scales.

Here's another free lesson from a semi-competent player: you need more than one strategy. You need several that you cycle in and out as your circumstances change. Be flexible, and don't sacrifice anything you don't have to.

[JimMorrison]

Renojustin said:
-How is it not anecdotal if Bogarus wins, but it is anecdotal if Bogarus loses? Both provide data. You can't have it both ways.



Because as of today, 100% of awake SCs, and 100% of imprisoned scales/magic pretenders have met with failure in MP games.

Until you can substantiate a particular strategy as being victorious (sorry Kuritza, not my intent to be rude), then there all of our evidence leads to loss of the game so far. 100% results are not anecdotal.

[Micah]

K- Seriously, no matter how many times you say it taking an SC pretender does not in fact hurt your gold or (generally) even resource availability in the first year.

Your statement that the 6 starets that you start buying on turn 7 after getting exarchs will somehow make up for not having 12 starets by starting to buy them on turn 1 is also nonsensical.

Exarchs can't have bodyguards without additional equipment. Having enough research, gems and forge turns to have teleport, battle magic and a fleet of flying carpets on turn 17 after you recruit 6 exarchs to start seems unlikely.

There's nothing at all stopping you from getting some smiters when you have an SC if you have to, but passing up starets for exarchs is a pretty short-term strategy given the amazing research potential of the starets.

Jim- Given the lack of evidence I'm gonna have to go with the opinions of MP vets that have some wins under their belt until some other strat proves effective in a competitive MP setting. Let me know when you substantiate your claims of scalemonsters being the way to go.

[JimMorrison]

Micah said:
Jim- Given the lack of evidence I'm gonna have to go with the opinions of MP vets that have some wins under their belt until some other strat proves effective in a competitive MP setting. Let me know when you substantiate your claims of scalemonsters being the way to go.



I'm not proposing one strategy is significantly better than another. I am simply arguing that there is no concrete evidence that one strategy is significantly better than another. They all have their weaknesses, which I think I have shown adequately. Obviously if you want to take my assertions as claims that an awake SC is an invalid strat, then you are free to denounce me as not experienced enough to take part in the discussion - but to do so, is simply to sidestep what I am even trying to express.

[Ming]

K,

Thank you for your reply and free advice.

For your information, I have played test games against the AI using both strategies (eparch and awake pretender) and find the latter to be superior (and NOT just because it is better against the AI). Nevertheless, in deference to your ability (I can tell from your comments in other threads that you are a good and experienced player – certainly more than semi-competent!) I shall take another look and reserve my judgment. Our differences seem minor and might be no more than player preference anyway. i.e. both strategies requires compromises and it is a question of which is a better compromise.

I should, however, point out a couple of points that you seem to have overlooked in your comments:

Taking an awake pretender can still leave enough points to get good scales – the only significant trade-off is production vs sloth. The value of production diminishes over time. So in this respect you are not getting much lasting value by not choosing an awake pretender. Alternately you could invest the points in magic paths, but Bogarus’ recruitable mages already provide sufficient magic ability, so again the trade-off for taking an awake pretender is not that great.

Giving up 5-6 turns of staret recruitment in the beginning IS a major handicap. Sure you could catch-up, but you would otherwise be way ahead! What do you gain in return? Extra design points that might not make a major difference – AND your early expansion would still be slower than with an awake pretender.

Finally, using an awake pretender gives you more flexibility, not less, in the early game. With an awake pretender, you can still recruit eparchs if the situation still calls for it. Without an awake pretender, you will not have the option of calling for its help.

Anyway, as I said, I shall take another look instead of debating this further.

[Ming]

Micah,

You have beaten me in stating most of my points and put it far more succinctly than I could have. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Renojustin]

JimMorrison said:

Renojustin said:
-How is it not anecdotal if Bogarus wins, but it is anecdotal if Bogarus loses? Both provide data. You can't have it both ways.



Because as of today, 100% of awake SCs, and 100% of imprisoned scales/magic pretenders have met with failure in MP games.

Until you can substantiate a particular strategy as being victorious (sorry Kuritza, not my intent to be rude), then there all of our evidence leads to loss of the game so far. 100% results are not anecdotal.




Kuritza said:
I've won a VP MP game with Bogarus, in Russian community though. With an awake Wyrm. I dont think Bogarus is any good without an SC God.

[K]

Micah said:
K- Seriously, no matter how many times you say it taking an SC pretender does not in fact hurt your gold or (generally) even resource availability in the first year.



Uh, so an Awake SC God is worth what.... maybe one province a turn for 10 turns before you hit serious opposition? So, if you can make an extra army early who is capable of doing that, then the effect is exact same.

Seriously, the Smiter strategy works as well as having an SC but you don't have to kill your longterm game to do it. I don't know why people resist the idea.


Micah said:
Your statement that the 6 starets that you start buying on turn 7 after getting exarchs will somehow make up for not having 12 starets by starting to buy them on turn 1 is also nonsensical.



Starets are pretty expensive. With your bad scales and SC god, you won't be able to afford them for long.

SC gods are a short-term strategy, but good scales pay off in both the short term and the long.


Micah said:
Exarchs can't have bodyguards without additional equipment. Having enough research, gems and forge turns to have teleport, battle magic and a fleet of flying carpets on turn 17 after you recruit 6 exarchs to start seems unlikely.

There's nothing at all stopping you from getting some smiters when you have an SC if you have to, but passing up starets for exarchs is a pretty short-term strategy given the amazing research potential of the starets.




Great research means nothing if you don't have the troops to protect your mages. Good scales provide troops, and an SC God is just an investment that ends the instant that someone drops a Thaum 4 Vengeance of the Dead onto him or gets a Fear-based Assassin to cause him to route during an Assassination attempt.

Lets not also forget that a big research bulge and small army bulge makes you a target for other players.

And on a final note, are you seriously trying to tell me that Con4(Carpets of Flying) and Thaum3(Teleport) are not doable by turn 16 with Bogarus? Seriously? Maybe you won't have the gems and need to go cheap with Boots of Flying so that your eparch gets mapmove 2, but the ability to do it is unquestioned. Run a quick test and see for yourself how easy it can be.

[JimMorrison]

I suppose we disagree on the definition of the word "substantiate".

I'm out though, I somehow doubt I am the only one getting aggravated by this discussion.

[Renojustin]

Kuritza said:


Renojustin said:I absolutely annihilated Bogarus by turn 10 where the opposing player didn't make any mistakes, and I used no devastating or cheap strategy. No bless. No awake pretender. Their army just ISN'T good enough to prevent it against an average military, and they even used their mages in their defense.


Well, you were LA Rlyeh, and that DOES count... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
And Bogarus had some weird pretender, like Vampire queen with just blood and death if my memory serves me right. In other words, not a SC pretender.



R'lyeh doesn't have a great army either, and that's what I used. I did not see Bogarus's pretender. The point being that an average army (if that) was able to dominate Bogarus without an awake pretender extremely easily going into turn 10, before R'lyeh Dominion effects even came into play.

[Micah]

Jim- The evidence is the weight of people's experience and educated guesses. You can't say that an imprisoned magicless pretender with LA Ermor and maxed scales isn't a disproven strategy because no one's tried it yet. Obviously it isn't a good strategy.

I haven't seen a thing in this thread that would make me think about NOT taking an SC with Bogarus when I play them in a normal dominions game situation, so I disagree with your assertion that you've adequately shown that another strategy might be better. Yes, it's hardly an instant-win formula, but it sure as heck is the best option you've got IMO.

If you really want those production scales just take a PoD, you've got the points to go O3/P3/C3/G1/Misf2/Magic1 with dom9 and D4. Those are pretty excellent scales, especially with the cold preference.

[Renojustin]

JimMorrison said:
I suppose we disagree on the definition of the word "substantiate".

I'm out though, I somehow doubt I am the only one getting aggravated by this discussion.



Doubting someone's word on something like that is definitely insulting. I mean, it's not like he claimed he had a girlfriend or something. We're not in middle school here.

[K]

Ming said:
K,

Thank you for your reply and free advice.

For your information, I have played test games against the AI using both strategies (eparch and awake pretender) and find the latter to be superior (and NOT just because it is better against the AI). Nevertheless, in deference to your ability (I can tell from your comments in other threads that you are a good and experienced player – certainly more than semi-competent!) I shall take another look and reserve my judgment. Our differences seem minor and might be no more than player preference anyway. i.e. both strategies requires compromises and it is a question of which is a better compromise.

I should, however, point out a couple of points that you seem to have overlooked in your comments:

Taking an awake pretender can still leave enough points to get good scales – the only significant trade-off is production vs sloth. The value of production diminishes over time. So in this respect you are not getting much lasting value by not choosing an awake pretender. Alternately you could invest the points in magic paths, but Bogarus’ recruitable mages already provide sufficient magic ability, so again the trade-off for taking an awake pretender is not that great.




It is nice to meet someone who can intelligently disagree with me and still be very civil. It is refreshing.

My last point is this: Bogarus's good troops need lots of resources, and their substandard troops need little. Perhaps Bogarus's perceived weakness is because few people see this and they insist on low Production and recruiting a Staret every turn until they lose?

I believe the nation is a trap for the inexperienced. It invites you to destroy yourself with a single good tactic when tactical diversity is the only common trait among the best players.

[Kuritza]

Consider this...by spending first 6 turns on recruiting OLD, 0-leadership smiters not only do you handicap your research significantly, but also dont search your lands for magic sites, compromising your endgame viability even further.
And Jim - I know its just my word, but at least you can consider it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Dom 10 Wyrm, W3E3, drain 2, dont remember the rest. Research to enchantment 1 for breath of winter (simply a must), alt 2 for quicken self, conj 3 for earthpower, alt 3 for ironskin also helps, constr 4 for some items. Later on such pretender can search for magic sites normally invisible to Bogarus and summon Beregini with Nature picks (they can also forge clams). Once empowered with Blood he summons Ice Devils, Father Illearth and forges Bloodstones. Maybe not the best start possible, but at least its relatively safe and offers some lategame diversification.
What I really missed is nature 4 bless, of course... cant have it all.

[Renojustin]

Drain 2 seems like a very solid choice given Bogarus's high-powered researchers.

[K]

Kuritza said:
Consider this...by spending first 6 turns on recruiting OLD, 0-leadership smiters not only do you handicap your research significantly, but also dont search your lands for magic sites, compromising your endgame viability even further.



But you do search your provinces. You just do it six turns later....and that causes you to lose how many gems?

I estimate that is probably costs a total of 80 gems of maybe four types. This seems like a lot, but it really isn't by endgame standards (and in early game it's not like you have anything good to spend it on).

[Micah]

K- Look at my example scales for an awake PoD. Note how they are not in fact remotely close to being bad.

The supposed SC counters you just listed are more straw men as well. A PoD is immune to Vengeance, and every single pretender has 30 morale, so fear is pretty unlikely to bother them much.

And yes, I am saying that if you start researching on turn 7 like you suggest that having enough research to have construction 4 (360 rp) + teleport (200 rp) + evo 5 (560) for actual useful battle magic as opposed to having your mages sit around casting blink + conj 3 200 for phoenix power is pretty much impossible, since that's 1320 RP. Researching starting on turn 7 you'll only have about 660 RP if all you do is research after your 10th staret researches for a turn. Add a bit for magic scale, still not enough.

OTOH, if you start making starets on turn 1 you'll actually have enough for all of that with some to spare for site searching. 1440 total RP after your 15th Staret researches for a turn. More than twice as much research. TWICE AS MUCH. That's probably got something to do with the resistance you're describing to your exarch spam idea. Sure, its fine if you're desperate, but it starts looking really obsolete right about turn 15 when you're losing out on casting falling fires and soul slays instead of smites.

[Kuritza]

What I meant is, when you dont produce mages during the initial 6 turns, first mages you make will have to choose between site-searching or researching - making the gap even worse, be it research gap or magic sites gap.

[Jazzepi]

Oh man. I just have to comment.

I've been extremely happy with my air4/earth5 dom 9 pretender for Bogarus in Kingmaker. Since you have air shield from the get-go he doesn't die to any indy province. If you script him right, he can even take on blood vine provinces.

I've been running him around since the beginning of time with zero equipment, and he only gets more amazing when you add onto it. Unlike PoD he can run right up front from the beginning. He's also 100% fire resistant meaning he can go toe to toe with sacreds using a fire bless.

Personally I would never recommend that someone use expensive, mapmove one, old age smiters as an answer to Bogarus's military problems which net zero research. In the early game they have enough trouble expanding, but a cyclops like I described is amazing. I had myself at the top of the expansion chart with him at the beginning of the game.

Also, you can research your way towards alteration two in less time then it would take the enemy to get ontop of you, giving you access to ironskin, and mistform. Throw in summon earth power and you have an early game SC.

And like Micah said, you still have great scales giving you tons of cash. I'm using O3S3G3M-2

Jazzepi

[Agema]

I can see that Bogarus doesn't have an obvious troop tactic. There's no great bless unit, the archery is mediocre, and there's no hydra-like monster. But they are certainly seem *adequate*. They've got solid infantry, and knights that can add some big punch if you crank a few out.

If you've taken sloth and can pretty much only recruit the Voi, you would be asking for trouble without an SC pretender. But I suspect you could hold enemies off with the quality troops. Add lots of very cheap voi archers behind a decent front line and it should be pretty effective. Shouldn't it?

[cleveland]

Starets have a 2.5% chance at F3. After recruiting them for 20 turns, you've got a solid 40% chance of landing one...about the same time you're accessing Flaming Arrows. Voi archers are 8g...

[DonCorazon]

Relying on archer strategies is dangerous though as about the time you pull off flaming arrows and the F3 mage your foes might also be getting arrow fend, mist, staff of storms / storm, darkness...

But it is something to consider depending on who you're fighting. Just seems like archers have a large number of counters as opposed to something like darkness, for example, which is pretty tricky to deal with.

[Tifone]

Jazzepi

Maybe I've done something wrong but your build, even with cold 3 (which you didn't state but i took it as implicit) still gives me -37 design points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[cleveland]

Agreed, particularly in LA. I personally wouldn't bother recruiting a single Voi archer until an F3 shows up. But when it did, I'd immediately puke out as many Voi as possible and rant/rave about my devastating ability to rain down fiery death. At worst, it'd force my opponents to develop Arrow Fend, Mist, Staff of Storms, Storm, Darkness, instead of something they'd rather be researching...at the cost of, what, $500 gold? Certainly better spent than on the rest of the crap they've got.

[JimMorrison]

2 communion slaves and Phoenix Power and your F2 mage is already at the F4 needed, seems silly to worry about playing the long odds when you can leverage that very early if you want.

But I forgot, I was going to stay out of this because I'm too inexperienced to know what works. <3

[Endoperez]

cleveland said:
Starets have a 2.5% chance at F3. After recruiting them for 20 turns, you've got a solid 40% chance of landing one...about the same time you're accessing Flaming Arrows. Voi archers are 8g...



Thanks for the math. That's useful in many circumstances, and it also got me to go through some math of my own. Probabilities, exponents, logarithms... Brrr! It's been a while.

[K]

Micah said:
K- Look at my example scales for an awake PoD. Note how they are not in fact remotely close to being bad.



Yeh, the scales are decent but that guy is not an SC. I ran several test games and he died somewhere between turn 4 and 8 when he accidentally hit a province with Calvary.

Maybe on turn 12 or 13 when you have some equipment for him he is decent, but the risks you are taking with that guy are pretty big.


Micah said:
The supposed SC counters you just listed are more straw men as well. A PoD is immune to Vengeance, and every single pretender has 30 morale, so fear is pretty unlikely to bother them much.



Yes, one of the potential SCs can't be affected by one of the potential counters, and all are a little resistant to another.

Crossbowman do perfectly fine if you don't have very high armor or Air Shield. Calvary don't even have a counter since they dump their payload of damage on turn 1 or 2.

In fact, the sheer number of SC counters in the LA are too numerous to mention. Baalz's LA Atlantis guide shows that even base troops have a good chance of killing an SC if you try.


Micah said:
And yes, I am saying that if you start researching on turn 7 like you suggest that having enough research to have construction 4 (360 rp) + teleport (200 rp) + evo 5 (560) for actual useful battle magic as opposed to having your mages sit around casting blink + conj 3 200 for phoenix power is pretty much impossible, since that's 1320 RP. Researching starting on turn 7 you'll only have about 660 RP if all you do is research after your 10th staret researches for a turn. Add a bit for magic scale, still not enough.

OTOH, if you start making starets on turn 1 you'll actually have enough for all of that with some to spare for site searching. 1440 total RP after your 15th Staret researches for a turn. More than twice as much research. TWICE AS MUCH. That's probably got something to do with the resistance you're describing to your exarch spam idea. Sure, its fine if you're desperate, but it starts looking really obsolete right about turn 15 when you're losing out on casting falling fires and soul slays instead of smites.



Actually, I never said Evo5 and Conj3 in addition to those other Paths (and eParchs are the H3s, not the H2 eXarchs).

I also don't think that Falling Fires is a great solution when nations generally have very high amounts of armor, but I get your point (and considering Bogarus's communions potential, deadly magic is actually much closer than you'd expect if you go some other route like Thaum 5 for Leeching Darkness).

But, here's a little test game where I was just tooling around and not planning it out too much, and I have all of those things by turn 21 even after I made dumb mistakes like forgetting to set mages to research or attacking provinces with too little troops because I forgot to check if I had blockers. I'm sure with a little more practice with Bogarus and more aggressive play I could cut it down to 17 turns, search more provinces for sites, and probably conquer an enemy (I have several armies doing nothing for around 9 turns). Considering that I said Turn 17 to 19, I'm actually not far off from my estimate.

[K]

cleveland said:
Starets have a 2.5% chance at F3. After recruiting them for 20 turns, you've got a solid 40% chance of landing one...about the same time you're accessing Flaming Arrows. Voi archers are 8g...



And have Mapmove 1. This means that they generally won't be any good for attacking armies who need to be reinforced, so I don't think an early Flaming Arrows strategy is really a great idea if you intend to use the Voi.

You'd be better off having high production and making indie Woodsman archers who are Mapmove 2, resource cheap, and have a full three more points of Precision.

[cleveland]

<font color="brown">Particularly in the LA, </font>flaming short bows aren't really an offensive weapon, they're a deterrent. They say, "I've got 12 volleys of flaming death waiting for you behind my walls. Perhaps you should look elsewhere." And Bogarus needs its neighbors looking elsewhere until ~year 4.

Agema was looking for an obvious troop tactic. 8g archers + flaming arrows seemed obvious to me.

<font color="brown"> edit </font>

[Kuritza]

I dont really understand the fuss about 2.5% chance for F3 starets. F2 is enough to cast flaming arrows as long as you have phoenix power and an extra gem, afaik.

[Micah]

Yes, K, a naked PoD has issues with cav, and archers as well. You also get scouting reports for a reason. Pick a prov without either on turn 2 and make an enchanted shield, alchemizing for the 5th pearl. Turn 3 you should hopefully have another province you can take that's adjacent to your cap...doesn't matter which one, since your PoD flies. Have your PoD kill the indies and your starting scout bring the shield over and give it to your Prince. He's now pretty much able to solo any indie province between the arrow blocking and the increased defense to stand up to a cavalry charge until the fear kicks in. Avoid the cav altogether if you want, there plenty of other stuff for your flying pretender to pick from. And this is just using national resources, you can do better if you trade.

If by "a little resistant" you mean "completely immune to" then yes, you're right about fear assassins. Fear doesn't work on morale-30 units, end of story.

There are a nuber of effective SC counters, it's true, but if you're letting troops that can kill your SC get into combat with your SC you're not using it very well. Flight is your friend.

And no, you didn't say anything about evo-5, but you did say "powerful magic" so I figured falling fires or something of that level was what you had in mind, since teleporting in mages to spam mind burn, rage and bonds of fire is pretty laughable. Maybe Flaming Arrows, which is level 4 instead of 5, but still, my point is that you're losing over half of your research by going with early priests. You'll have to forgive the naming confusion on my part.

And sure, you might be able to have all that by turn 17, but I bet I can have it quicker than that with an awake pretender and still have a highly mobile raider on top of a well-developed nation.

[K]

Micah said:
Yes, K, a naked PoD has issues with cav, and archers as well. You also get scouting reports for a reason. Pick a prov without either on turn 2 and make an enchanted shield, alchemizing for the 5th pearl. Turn 3 you should hopefully have another province you can take that's adjacent to your cap...doesn't matter which one, since your PoD flies. Have your PoD kill the indies and your starting scout bring the shield over and give it to your Prince. He's now pretty much able to solo any indie province between the arrow blocking and the increased defense to stand up to a cavalry charge until the fear kicks in. Avoid the cav altogether if you want, there plenty of other stuff for your flying pretender to pick from. And this is just using national resources, you can do better if you trade.



And that's no more interesting or effective than setting up smite armies to do the same. The effect of "more provinces" is the exact same, you just don't have to pay hundreds of design points for it.


Micah said:
If by "a little resistant" you mean "completely immune to" then yes, you're right about fear assassins. Fear doesn't work on morale-30 units, end of story.



I'm not quite sure what you are talking about because I've seen Pretenders route. If you route during an assassination, you die.


Micah said:
There are a number of effective SC counters, it's true, but if you're letting troops that can kill your SC get into combat with your SC you're not using it very well. Flight is your friend.



So you are saying that you'll avoid combat with this SC god.... then why even have it? It is still vulnerable to teleport ambushes and other enemy magic, so it just looks like a liability from my standpoint.


Micah said:
And no, you didn't say anything about evo-5, but you did say "powerful magic" so I figured falling fires or something of that level was what you had in mind, since teleporting in mages to spam mind burn, rage and bonds of fire is pretty laughable. Maybe Flaming Arrows, which is level 4 instead of 5, but still, my point is that you're losing over half of your research by going with early priests. You'll have to forgive the naming confusion on my part.



I think you must be joking with me because I can't imagine you do not know about Thaum 5 which in total gives you Gateway, Teleports, Communions, Soul Slay, Confusion, Leeching Darkness and a host of other spells that can seriously alter a war or battlefield. Being able to move armies from your castles straight to a war zone is a great power, but if powerful battlemagic is only a Communion and some equipment away, that's just icing on the cake.


Micah said:And sure, you might be able to have all that by turn 17, but I bet I can have it quicker than that with an awake pretender and still have a highly mobile raider on top of a well-developed nation.



Your "well developed nation" is going to get twice as many afflicted old mages every winter because you went G1 instead of G3 (1/3 instead of 1/6 by my tests), and who knows how much income you'll have lost from not having provinces grow as fast (and how much you'll lose once you start blood hunting).

But it is a good thing you have a flying raider. With your Misfortune, you'll need it to put down the barbarian and knight invasions that crop up even in an Order 3.

Whatever. I've made my point. I'll let this go.

[Jazzepi]

cleveland said:
Starets have a 2.5% chance at F3. After recruiting them for 20 turns, you've got a solid 40% chance of landing one...about the same time you're accessing Flaming Arrows. Voi archers are 8g...



You don't even need them to be F3.

F2 scarlets + 1 gem + phoenix power does it.

Jazzepi

[Jazzepi]

Tifone said:
Jazzepi

Maybe I've done something wrong but your build, even with cold 3 (which you didn't state but i took it as implicit) still gives me -37 design points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif



Sorry. The build is as follows.

A4
E5
Dom9
O3
S3
C2
G3
Misfortune2
Drain2

Jazzepi

[Micah]

K - The proof is in the pudding, as they say. You've got a total of 1 win vs 4 other opponents in a newbie game, whereas I think I've got a pretty solid track record of MP wins. You can present all of the misleading evidence you'd like, but at the end of the day you simply don't have the same level of understanding of the game as some of the MP vets, myself included.

Take, for example, your statement about fear. Pretenders are immune to it, at least from everything I've tested and seen. This is a clear-cut issue of game mechanics. They can and do rout when they are injured badly enough, or when they are part of a general army rout, but fear doesn't bother them. It's hard to truly grasp the subtleties of strategy decisions when you don't even grasp the game mechanics.

Your statements about efficiency and general game flow are also flawed, although it is somewhat harder to prove, especially when you swap around your arguments. You said "And on a final note, are you seriously trying to tell me that Con4(Carpets of Flying) and Thaum3(Teleport) are not doable by turn 16 with Bogarus" and all of a sudden you start talking about having thaum-5, which is another 420RP, and Leeching Darkness, which is a D3 spell when you only have D1 mages. Sure, I guess you can communion together enough mages to get that to go off, but it's a pretty lousy idea in terms of efficiency. Plus you don't have S3 on the D starets without a 10% random, so you can't actually teleport in at that point.

Teleport ambushes and other magic can kill a pretender, it's true. Saying that's a liability is like saying having a queen is bad in chess because your opponent will be trying really hard to eliminate her. Resources are finite, and if he's aiming his magic at your pretender he's not aiming it at your other assets.

[K]

Micah said:
K - The proof is in the pudding, as they say. You've got a total of 1 win vs 4 other opponents in a newbie game, whereas I think I've got a pretty solid track record of MP wins. You can present all of the misleading evidence you'd like, but at the end of the day you simply don't have the same level of understanding of the game as some of the MP vets, myself included.



Interesting fallacy.

When I've played almost a hundred games and won just over 7% of them, do I get to dismiss people's facts like that too?


Micah said:
Take, for example, your statement about fear. Pretenders are immune to it, at least from everything I've tested and seen. This is a clear-cut issue of game mechanics. They can and do rout when they are injured badly enough, or when they are part of a general army rout, but fear doesn't bother them. It's hard to truly grasp the subtleties of strategy decisions when you don't even grasp the game mechanics.




You make a lot of assumptions, like assuming I was talking about the fear mechanic instead of the routing mechanic. I'll admit I wasn't clear.

From that you make assumptions about my ability which are not warranted, and you do so in an attempt to "win" the argument.

Here's my advice: if you are going to try to win an argument, do so on the merits and not by attempts to discredit your opponent. Personal attacks don't work, and they make you look like you don't have valid arguments to counter your opponent.


Micah said:
Your statements about efficiency and general game flow are also flawed, although it is somewhat harder to prove, especially when you swap around your arguments. You said "And on a final note, are you seriously trying to tell me that Con4(Carpets of Flying) and Thaum3(Teleport) are not doable by turn 16 with Bogarus" and all of a sudden you start talking about having thaum-5, which is another 420RP, and Leeching Darkness, which is a D3 spell when you only have D1 mages. Sure, I guess you can communion together enough mages to get that to go off, but it's a pretty lousy idea in terms of efficiency. Plus you don't have S3 on the D starets without a 10% random, so you can't actually teleport in at that point.

Teleport ambushes and other magic can kill a pretender, it's true. Saying that's a liability is like saying having a queen is bad in chess because your opponent will be trying really hard to eliminate her. Resources are finite, and if he's aiming his magic at your pretender he's not aiming it at your other assets.



Again, you make a lot of assumptions. You assume I'm talking about taking Starets into battle when I never actually said that. I said:

"Then you send your Eparchs into position for your first war. By then you have a second castle pumping out Masters of Names for great research, and when you meet your enemies around turn 17 or 19 you teleport in with powerful magic backing you up and if you were smart you now have those Eparch on Carpets of Flying with something interesting as guard."

One out of four Masters of Names can actually Teleport natively if they have the right picks, and the others can use items like Crystal Coins and boosters in their non-Astral Paths to cast bigger magics. Of course, bringing in an Occultist to use his native Death magic will mean that he'll walk or fly instead of boosting his Astral because it is not efficient without Starshine Skullcaps, but his Communion slaves (and Blood Slaves) can all be Teleported in.

Considering that I showed that a half-hearted game I played can get Thaum 3, Conj3, Evo5, and Con4 by Turn 20 (my mistake, it was not 21 in the test game I posted as I said earlier) means that by your very criteria a flippant comment about Teleporting in on Turn 17-19 with "powerful magic" is definitely within the realm of possibility. I'm sorry that I confused you and the issue by talking about how efficient it is to save research points by using the powerful magic in Thaumaturgy where someone had already invested points as per my example.

Of course, this example proves that instead of diverting points into Conj and Evo you could also spend the 820 points gained on something else like taking one of the Paths I talked about from 3 or 4 to 6, or picking different Paths at 3 and 5.

To summarize my points:

-Yes, an Awake SC is valuable right up until you contact an MP player who gets tired of you raiding their back provinces.

-Yes, the ten to twenty of gems they spend to kill your god are a real expenditure, but probably not worth hundreds of design points that you are paying for the privilege(and the equipment you'll lose when they do and which may actually mean that you lose more gems than them).

-Is it "necessary"? Clearly not considering your other strengths like smite armies, especially if you must sacrifice scales like Production or Growth.

-Is this the kind of discussion I like, but which clearly aggravates people to the point of personal attack? Clearly yes.

My apologies. I'll stop reading this thread so that I'm not tempted to post another response.

[Micah]

"and an SC God is just an investment that ends the instant that someone...gets a Fear-based Assassin to cause him to route during an Assassination attempt."

You're clearly talking about fear mechanics there, not general rout.

You also vastly underestimate the difficulty of killing a properly cared for SC.

But how about this, instead of arguing over theory why don't we play a few duels? Caelum seems like a good rush nation to play against with their mammoths, but that's just a suggestion. We can swap off playing as Bogarus and see who fares better. Willing to step up and test your scale build?

[Sombre]

Yes he was talking about fear mechanics. I have no idea why he'd seriously try and pretend he wasn't.

But are you sure fear doesn't effect 30 morale creatures Micah? I might test this tomorrow.

[DrPraetorious]

I should add that I agree with Micah - this is in many ways a 4X game, and getting an awake SC is a good way to bootstrap into some early expansion as Bogarus.

To an extent, I also agree with K - this SC God does not answer the question of what you do when someone rushes you (die), but nothing about having an awake SC God prevents you from using your national forces and priests, if those will be sufficient to blunt the rush, you'll probably have more of them on turn 12 with a SC than with super-scales; this is especially true as you can afford an awake SC and still have positive scales.

Consider the obvious:
Awake Dom 10 Prince of Death, Earth 3, Death 5
Order 3, Sloth 1, Cold 3, Growth 1, Misf 2, Magic 1

vs the king of scales:
Imprisoned Dom 7 Forge Lord, Fire 4, Water 3, Earth 3
Order 3, Prod 3, Cold 3, Growth 3, Misf 1, Magic 1

Now this guy is a *fantastic* God. He's got great scales, a forge bonus, he makes rune smashers and earth items and staves of elemental mastery all for cheap.

Fact remains - in a MP game, I'm taking the awake SC God every time.

[chrispedersen]

[quote]
K said:


Uh, so an Awake SC God is worth what.... maybe one province a turn for 10 turns before you hit serious opposition? So, if you can make an extra army early who is capable of doing that, then the effect is exact same.

Seriously, the Smiter strategy works as well as having an SC but you don't have to kill your longterm game to do it. I don't know why people resist the idea.

[quote]



Because it obviously isn't true. Your smiters will start with old age. Your smiters are essentially single purpose. Your smiters are fragile.

An awake pretender may be a forger, an invader, a site searcher. He has more hitpoints, wo't generally fall to a starting assassin, and has superior mobility. He can transport troops.

Anyway. what might be fun is a 5 territory vs 5 territory head to head..

[Micah]

Sombre said:
Yes he was talking about fear mechanics. I have no idea why he'd seriously try and pretend he wasn't.

But are you sure fear doesn't effect 30 morale creatures Micah? I might test this tomorrow.



I made 2 D10 cyclops since it was the easiest way to get a bunch of fear quickly and had them swing away at each other for a battle, they lasted the full 50 rounds before the attacker ran away, so I'm pretty sure. I just added 3 behemoths to one side and didn't get a rout, nor did his morale number drop off of 30. QM said there might be some weird situations where it might work (spells maybe?) but it seems quite rare at best and likely impossible. Certainly not something a single assassin could trigger.

[MaxWilson]

Micah said:
Take, for example, your statement about fear. Pretenders are immune to it, at least from everything I've tested and seen. This is a clear-cut issue of game mechanics. They can and do rout when they are injured badly enough, or when they are part of a general army rout, but fear doesn't bother them. It's hard to truly grasp the subtleties of strategy decisions when you don't even grasp the game mechanics.




Hunh. I've been confused about this for a while, since Baalz posted about using Send Lesser Horror to kill SCs, and this post made me finally good and check it out... and it appears that Morale 30 does make you (virtually?) immune to fear. Conclusions:

1.) Thanks Micah. If nothing else, you straightened that issue out for me.

2.) I love Banquet for the Dead even more now. Not only do Ditanim have Fear +0, but they're immune to fear themselves. E10N6 Ditanu are cool.

-Max

[Tifone]

Excuse the question of a poor n00b.

Doesn't a H3 priest destroy an assassin? I mean, he is already set to smite on turn 1 no? And surely he isn't on the front line? One turn, possibly two for the assassin before landing the killin blow, shouldn't he already be smited and gone?

For the main theme, I don't understand why wouldn't both the ways be viable - I think we're used to see nations played in 2 or even more different ways I think. Surely the SC provides more "moral deterrent" then the smiters - but with DrPraetorious' build and scales, for example, and K's strategy, I think you would expand almost as faster but not trashing your mid-to-late game's national advantage of a strong research with a Drain-2...

[Agema]

Smite has a magic resistance check, the assassin may survive. Besides, few people will make an assassin early on when there are more important things to make, and they won't be preferentially aiming for H3 priests, I suspect.

* * *

I think people are overlooking what K originally stated. He wasn't suggesting Bogarus would be rushproof without an awake SC pretender. I think he was suggesting partly he'd take the chance of non-rushing neighbours for an advanced mid to late game. I'd imagine the likes of mammoth-wielding Caelum or dual-bless Mictlan would fancy rushing Bogarus whether or not they had an SC.

To this end, Bogarus could avoid sloth scales (making the points back and more on a cheaper pretender and delayed arrival) and build stronger troops instead.

[chrispedersen]

Sloth scales aren't going to make a beans worth of difference. A pile of crap is still crap.

[Tifone]

But armored crap is more difficult to squash ^_^

[JimMorrison]

Except with Sloth 3 you won't be able to recruit anything but Voi in any numbers. In that case, you are better off with indie troops - but wait, you won't get any significant number of indies with Sloth 3 either.

Tell you one thing, if I'm looking for a rush target, a Sloth 3 Bogarus with a PoDis much higher on the list (the technical term is "top") than a Prod 3 Bogarus who can actually field something other than mages and his PoD.

Of course, if your argument is that everyone who takes a PoD is an amazing player who will raid their assailant to death, and everyone who goes max scales is a n00b who will run their cavalry under your elephants..... then you win the debate, hooray for you.

[Zenzei]

While I'm on the awake SC camp, I certainly agree with Jim and K that good scales are also necessary for Bogarus. Taking sloth would certainly lead into disaster, imo, because then one would really have nothing to stop an invasion and single pretender now matter how though won't do here.

I've also wondered why do people tend to ignore Bogarus' national troops. Sure, the voi are trash but the peshti spearmen and various cavalry look rather good to me.

[Dedas]

I have you ever considered using the production scale to build lots and lots of "crap" and then back it up with mages who then cast boosters on the crap and then bombard the enemy from safety (behind the crap)? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[JimMorrison]

Because a peak protection of 13 is considered rather pathetic in LA. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

But the Voi are horrendous. The other troops, while not impressive, have their strengths that can be leveraged. I have no idea what these guys do with their small Voi armies when their opponent has a PoD and can route their military in the first round of combat.....

But, different playstyles. I'd have completely abandoned this fracas, if I didn't think most of the "awake SC is absolutely necessary for Bogarus" camp were being totally ridiculous about their denouncement of other ways to take it. I never said an awake SC won't cut it. All I ever said was that you give up so much, and create enough new weaknesses, that it is not the clear cut and obvious choice that some people make it out to be.

Call me "inexperienced" all you want, winning with LA Ermor doesn't make you an expert on Bogarus. Only winning with Bogarus can do that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif And not even, but it gets you closer to that title anyways. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Dedas]

Morale is an issue I grant you that but you do have access to fanaticism by making an Eparch prophet. It also seems kind of thematic as well taking him along in a great army praying for the peasantry.

You should also only fight in positive dominion granting your peasants at least 9 in morale, add fanaticism and sermon to that and you have at least 11. Oh and your horse commanders also carry standards.

[JimMorrison]

Yes but you can't afford horses (resource-wise). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif And they're really hard to keep grouped with infantry, they're much better with the other horse archers who are also ranged, and also mounted with the same speed.

Fanatacism can surely help with the morale a bit, but Voi will still take tremendous losses against just about anything, including LA indies. I mean, I don't even buy that quality of troops for expansion in EA anymore, the attrition is just too costly and cumbersome.

I mean it's great if the PoD is taking a province a turn - if he can consistently find provinces that he can take. However, with Sloth3 and a Voi army, you're going to have a really tough time keeping up with expansion using your troops. It takes a couple of extra turns to rev up a solid force of horse archers, but they can take most indies with very few losses once they hit critical mass, so you are building up the next force, rather than running on a "Voi reinforcement" treadmill.

To look at it another way, if your PoD takes 10 (starts in month 2, and you wait until turn 2 to attack) provinces in the first year, and your army takes 6 provinces, then you aren't much better off than the player whose main army takes 9 provinces in that first year, and then sends another force out 3 turns later which takes 6 as well. Also if he's affording a decent squad of troops every 3 turns, and is positioned well, he might even be beating your expansion rate with the PoD - but we won't go there because you could suppose that your 8 prot, 8 morale Voi didn't die in droves.

My point is just that more often than not, no matter which direction you take it, Bogarus' expansion will tend to be mediocre. But it'll be mediocre with their best troops alone, or with an awake SC and a steaming pile of Voi.

[Jazzepi]

I don't know why people constantly refer to PoD for Bogarus like it's the only SC pretender you can get. Personally I think the cyclops is much better.

Jazzepi

[JimMorrison]

Honestly I think you're right, but I still think, after playing with the Pretender Creator some more, that my playstyle is much better supported by taking a Production scale, and the swap from PoD to Cyclops doesn't really free up any excess points. Your build is pretty decent despite that - I just can't see myself using it, as it still forces you to be heavily reliant on Voi.

Well that and the Cyclops was the first awake SC that I tried to play with, and no matter what I did, he would get horribly afflicted in no time unless I waited for Cons4 and put a Ring of Regen on him, plus whatever else I had the gems for at the time. I don't know how people get away with it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif I guess holding him a couple of turns and making a basic shield is necessary? Seems to cut into the stated benefit of an awake SC. People make claims like "1 province per turn for the first year", then we find out they often wait until turn 4 so they can get the gems for a shield and forge it, before going out. O.o

[Kuritza]

Dont touch Voi guys with a 10-foot pole unless they are Voi archers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Production 1 is more or less ok for Bogarus because its fortified cities leech tons of resources from neighbouring lands (unless you are out of luck and get three grasslands near your capitol... sigh). Prod 1 is something you can afford even with an awake SC God.
&gt;&gt; A pile of crap is still crap.
Pile of crap with kite shields lasts long enough. Even if you field a whole army of mages (and it doesnt bite the dust when your opponent casts some earthquakes) it needs time to deal damage. Pile of crap with flaming arrows can kill some enemy archers or Rlyeh chaff etc. Pile of crap on horseback with lances can actually fight. Etc, etc.
So imho its awake God and *some* scales.

[Malarkey]

Wow I'm glad there was as much conflict on the issue within the community as there was within myself.

So most of us can agree on the fact that the military is crap outside of the slightly overpriced heavy cavalry.
Some say go Sloth, forget the Cav, and mass voi archers with some meat shields and maybe shoot for flaming arrows.
Others say take some Production in order to be able to afford the Cavalry. To me, going Sloth seems a waste and seems like admitting that your army is just going to be ****ty.

Again, I dont think that Order is necessary with 200% tax and simagrls patrolling.

As far as Awakening goes - what kind of Bogarus endgame is there? Bogarus can get to endgame early because of such powerful research, but without a mage with good magic skill, who will cast the spells? Actually this is a problem for me with all nations - I always end up designing my Pretender as being able to cast my endgame spells (ie Marignon pretender gets Astral and Fire to be able to summon the Heavenly Choir, though maybe short a point or two to be boosted). But with no obvious endgame strategy, what would you all recommend? Like I said, I was tempted towards high blood. What kind of endgame does D5/E5 open up? I ask because with higher skill in magic, I'd have to either sacrifice Awakening or Scales and I usually hate sacrificing scales.

I'd also still like an opinion on Bogarus' National Summons like the Leshy.

[MaxWilson]

Or else Sloth is like admitting that you'll need to build 50% more forts to have the same-sized army. Since you want to build forts anyway for researchers this isn't always so bad--you're trading gold for design points and getting more mage-factories as a bonus.

About endgames: if you have enough gems, you can bootstrap to almost anything. D5 is plenty to make D4 demiliches who can cast Darkness, Rigor Mortis, Stygian Paths (with a couple of boosters), that Army of Wraiths spell or whatever, etc. E5 will get you Troll Kings and Earth Kings, who can do any battle-casting you want. Pretender aside, Bogarus has enough communion power (via Communion/Sabbath Master/Slave) to leverage research power into powerful spells. That said, I personally don't like having weak recruitable-anywhere mages, but in the endgame individual (unboosted, uncommunioned) mages become less of a factor because Battlefield Enchantments start taking over.

-Max

[chrispedersen]

Now there would be an excellent challenge.

The winner of a large LA game - as bogarus...
Prize: Have a merc named after you...

[Tifone]

Damn, if someone named PinkTenderFluffyBunny69 wins this, you will eat your hat for this chris XD

[Baalz]

MaxWilson said:

Micah said:
Take, for example, your statement about fear. Pretenders are immune to it, at least from everything I've tested and seen. This is a clear-cut issue of game mechanics. They can and do rout when they are injured badly enough, or when they are part of a general army rout, but fear doesn't bother them. It's hard to truly grasp the subtleties of strategy decisions when you don't even grasp the game mechanics.





Hunh. I've been confused about this for a while, since Baalz posted about using Send Lesser Horror to kill SCs, and this post made me finally good and check it out... and it appears that Morale 30 does make you (virtually?) immune to fear. Conclusions:

1.) Thanks Micah. If nothing else, you straightened that issue out for me.

2.) I love Banquet for the Dead even more now. Not only do Ditanim have Fear +0, but they're immune to fear themselves. E10N6 Ditanu are cool.

-Max



Hmmmm, I've been using lesser horrors to quite reliably send Harbingers fleeing with negative morale in the Global War game. Is their morale less than 30?

[DonCorazon]

Harbingers are Morale 18.

[Nikelaos]

hey i'm a noob and i was glad to find this thread and to see everyone was having the same problem as me but after some experimenting i found my own little solution capable of taking down 20 double blessed mictlan jags.

try a W5 father of winters, with high dominion and scales

productivity-3 (a must for your good troops)
order-3 (i find it always helps)
drain-3 (the quality of researches outweighs this)
cold-3 (capitalise on father of winters abilities)

build the 2-3 mallai druzinhas you can each turn and set them to guard comander on your god. get a mage to build n enchanted sheild for your god to protect him from missiles and increase hi already boosted (through cold power and water magic lvl) defence. early expansion will have to be slow due too lack of a populous army. in the event of a mictlan dual bless rush on the 6th turn with 20 jags you should have by then around 15 druzinhas and some archers bought from any surplus resources and some mages to hold your front.

your druzinhas should be able to hold off any force short of elephants long enough for your lord of winters aura of cold to kick in (note that it is stronger because of frosty dominion). the enemy units will soon become fatigued and unable to act allowing your remaining druzinhas (partially protected from cold) a chance to wipe them clear and with the added potency of archers andd mages you should have little problem forcing back even an army of 20 dual blessed jags.

after the first wave simply get back to slowly expanding and re-enforcing your defences. you should also think about making a fivefold angel and some of your very weak but stealthy sacreds. their mere presence increases unrest and the fivefold angel can instil uprisings making them tacticly very dangerous, simply sneak them onto the enemies capital and other castles and watch the army production grind to a halt and so preventing further waves of attack and leaving them defenceless as their armies fall to attrition.

indeed with bogarus it is true to say, the night is darkest just before the dawn as you will find that after the early game you can become 1 to fear as your druzinha production rises and enemy unit production withers.

[chrispedersen]

Father of winters was my solution to the Bogarus problem was well Nike - see my earlier post.

My own observation is that the father of winters chill effect is so strong, that even with cold resistence 50 you will kill a lot of your own troops.

So, I'd rather kill cheap troops than expensive ones. But maybe your placement is better than mine - placement is one of my weaknesses.

[Rytek]

My solution is an Awake Virtue:
Dom 10
A4
E3
Order 3
Sloth 3
Cold 3
Growth 3
Misfortune 1
Magic 1
Dominion 10 gives your Virtue Awe 7

Turn 1 make your scout profit. Set taxes to 130%. Patrol with your army. Buy a Starets and as many archers as you can.
Your Goddess researches Alteration.

Turn 2 your goddess attacks a weak province. Position in back corner of battlefield. Script: Air shield, Hold, attack Archers.
Add archers to starting army and patrol again. Set taxes at 150%
Buy another Starets and some heavy infantry.
Set first Starets to researching. Set Scout Profit to preaching. You need to spread your dominion fast and make sure your Goddess fights in her dominion until she gets buffs.

Turn 3 See if you can buy an independent commander at your new province. If so, get it. Buy another Starets and some more heavy infantry at the capitol. Add heavy infanty to starting army. Keep patrolling at 150% taxes. Pick another province with Pretender. Just a quick note: The best early provinces are ones with human type troops, archers, militia, light infantry.
Turn 4-6 keep taking 1 per turn with the pretender. Keep patrolling and buying a starlet every turn. Look for a second province to plop a castle down on. Something to look for: A province with at least 5000+ population so you can start some blood hunting up. Another nice province is one that you can recruit a Indep Nature mage from it. But really, just plop a castle down between 4-6, get a lab up.

After you get Alteration 3, (mistform,ironskin,) head straight for Conjuration 3 for summon earth power. And then finally to construction 2 to put some equipment on your pretender. One quick note to watch. when you hit Alteration 2 and script stone skin, watch the cold level in the province or you will get extra fatigue.

The Virtue realy is a paper tiger. But if you can get to Alt 3 without a bad affliction, its smooth sailing. By turn 12 you should have ALT 3, conj3 and cons 2 and a 2nd castle.

Note, this build also works with some variations.

Dom 7 Air 4, death 5 Virtue (Awe and fear plus the death and air helps with boosters later on.

Dom 7 air 4, nature 5 Virtue (nature gives barksin at alt 1 which really helps. not to mention regen which is hard to get an item for with your national mages

[Ming]

IMHO the starting point for Bogarus has to be an awake SC pretender that is capable of taking indie provinces without equipment, high dominion, and good scales (you can afford these with C3). The advantages are obvious and has been stated by me and others earlier.

To deviate from that one need to ask two questions:

1. Can Bogarus defend itself against an aggressive neighbour without an awake defender?

2. Can the design points saved from not having an awake pretender be put to BETTER use?

I think that the answer to 1. is probably yes except in specific circumstances, even without having to hire a lot of H3 epachs.

The answer to 2. is more difficult. Putting the design points to good use (which is easy) is not the same as putting the design points to BETTER use than having an awake pretender. I have yet to find a way to spend the design points that would make the situation superior to that of having an awake pretender. I am still looking though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Nikelaos]

chrispedersen said:
Father of winters was my solution to the Bogarus problem was well Nike - see my earlier post.

My own observation is that the father of winters chill effect is so strong, that even with cold resistence 50 you will kill a lot of your own troops.

So, I'd rather kill cheap troops than expensive ones. But maybe your placement is better than mine - placement is one of my weaknesses.



too be fair i do sorta have the druzinha close by to the pretender but i find they are quite surviveable to the effects (more so than ther chaff because of hp) and their stats in both protection and defence/parry skill allows them to take as little damage from enemy troops as possible. i admit i do take casualties from the chill effect but in the end it is half as much as the enemy and with half the fatigue on surviving ones so despite the frozen loses i find i can comfortably win especially with the back up of mages and archers.

[chrispedersen]

Another solution:

+3,+3,-3,+3,-1,-2 : Gaiea, 1E 2N Dom9.

Besides generally solid, it has the emotionally satisfying extra of leaving 0 points.

First turn, build out all standard builders. Alchemize and build a FiveFold Angel. Prophetize your scout.

Dump them in with your archers. Either don't order them, or give em hold and attack.

Going this route, I have expanded 6 territories with only 5 - 6 casualties. Build only Std Cavalry, and heavy cavalry. Which you should be able to do 6/turn and build a starets each turn, with the settings listed.

Key tho is to get that 5Fold out and increase dominion. Increasing dominion increases gods hp - and decreases the chances of getting afflicted.

I think this causes fewer self inflicted casualties than Father of Winter, and fewer afflictions than virtue. Whether it could stop a bless rush nation...

[Ming]

Epach is both cheaper and more effective for increasing dominion than 5fold, and does not cause unrest. The strategy is otherwise sound.

[Ming]

Oh, you meant increasing dominion in hostile territory... epach increasing dominion in friendly territory might still give a better result even though you have less control.

[Nikelaos]

i find that 5folds really should be used just for increasing unrest in enemy lands, with a few khlyst behind them they can halt unit production in just a few months if your opponent fails to spot te unrest and/or fails to patrol.

I find the eparch is by far the best choice for spreading dominion and using 5folds for that purpose doesn't make good enough use of their abilities.

[chrispedersen]

Absolutlely agree.

However, with a standard start, you have precisely 1 resource left over, and exactly 150 gold.

The only thing you can build is a 5 Fold. And it still works.
Sure, after the first turn build what you like = ).

[Nikelaos]

well i guess you do got a point there and it does work, if not to the same effect as an eparch.

also i thinkles that we have solved the bogarus problem, some of these strategies really work and after the first year or so b.ogarus does start to pick up speed as a nation.

[chrispedersen]

Well, anything works sp. The question becomes whether it works mp.

[Micah]

Massed bands of khlysty in enemy lands do run a very high risk of getting caught even with just 10PD, as they aren't very stealthy, which is something to keep in mind.