New Board - Props and Slops

[Jazzepi]

Things I immediately noticed and didn't like.

SLOPS

1. The tiny stored PM cap.

I know that there was a huge issue with the number of PMs being saved in people's accounts, but the current 100 message limit is far too low. I generate well over 100 messages from a single game. I use the board PM system explicitly so that I can store those messages and look at them later in case I forget about an agreement/trade/pact. Since I usually play in 4-5 games at any given time, I can usually expect a load of about 300-1000 messages depending on whether or not I survive for a long time.

In short, the cap was put on because a tiny fraction of the users were clogging up the database with their PMs. PLEASE raise the cap to something more reasonable, say 1000 PMs, so that I can continue to use the on board PM system to do diplomacy.

2. The board itself seems smaller. It's like someone took it and squished it in from the sides. There's less room given to the individual threads, and I find the screen much more "busy" with irrelevant stuff. I'd really like to see the individual cell size of each thread increased (when browsing from a general page outside of a specific thread) as well as the text inside of those cells.

Basically I feel like I'm playing in this tiny little sandbox and not using the majority of the window.

3. The number of icon usable for the main thread of the posts has shrunk considerably. I always used the icons to show a difference between the multiplayer game threads so that they're easy to pick out. So, basically, please add more icons that we can use for the post ones.

4. I dislike the "new post" icon. I felt the way the old system worked where the thread itself was simply bolded was much more effective. It's more difficult to differentiate between a thread that has a new post in it than one that doesn't because the icons are all so similar.

5. Apparently there's no way to delete posts anymore :( How frustrating. Can an admin please move this to the general board?

PROPS

Otherwise things look okay, and I'm glad the transition is finally over with! Thanks to all the admins for putting in the time and effort to get stuff over-hauled so quickly. Hopefully the transition will equal less down time in the future. Oh, and the new boards are very zippy, which is extremely nice. No more waiting for load times.

Jazzepi

[Lingchih]

I think the new forum is a major downgrade, on the order of Windows Vista. We all knew the ins and outs of the old board, and it was quite well done. This new forum is full of useless bells and whistles, and is quite generic. It looks and acts like any old board you might find on the web.

And I agree that the 100 message limit is a joke. C'mon Shrapnel, it's just text. You can store 1000 per user easily.

The animated icons are driving me nuts.

I predict that this new board will drive down MP game participation by at least 50%

Overall, the new site looks really nice though. It's just the boards that I find useless now.

[DakaSha]

yeah i agree i really do NOT like the new boards... and i too am also scared of MP suffering due to it.
It is the first day they have been put up though. maybe things will be improved. (im still for the old boards though :P )

[AdmiralZhao]

I started to comment on the new forums, but the animated gifs are drilling a hole through my skull. How am I supposed to get in character for Perihelion, Lord of all Creation, when I keep seeing this stupid bouncing question mark out of the corner of my eye? If forum admins are reading, please ditch the animated icons. Didn't we learn anything from the <blink>blink tag?

[JimMorrison]

Maybe I just wanted so much out of these forums, it's just like "morning after" disappointment?

Jazzepi already hit most of mine.

But I wanted to add:

6. Anti-Idle - Can this be disabled somehow? I used to leave browser pages open to my PM Inbox, and to the forums. There's no data being transferred unless I click on a page, so essentially the anti-idle is sucking bandwidth from the server by forcing people to log back in constantly.

I love you guys, just please please..... Make these forums more like the comfortable and loving wife we left behind on friday, and less like the cheap **** we woke up with after a weekend in Vegas.


<3 <3 <3

[konming]

I understand that you use a new board software, now can we tweak the interface back to where it was? This tiny font used in quick reply is killing my eyes.

[konming]

BTW, what's up the huge user name row? IMHO, the space would much better be used for other things, like text in a post.

[Dedas]

I would just like to say that I agree on everything said above. Why all this clutter and advertisement? It just feels cheap and disrespectful, and that is certainly not the recipe for a strong community.

Do use the possibilities the new forum software offers but please don't throw everything at once in my face like this.

[vfb]

Sorry for these additional gripes:

* All cross-links inside posts were not converted. The Strategy Index is now a list of strings to search for.

* My friends list was not converted and is now empty.

* My 'favorite threads' are likewise gone.

* I don't seem to be able to edit my own posts ... but I'm sure that's just me ... is it? If I can figure out how to edit my posts, then I can delete this line! EDIT Okay, so I can edit this post with the 'Edit' button. But I don't have an 'Edit' button in my old posts. I'd like to update the first post in my 'Max Path to Search By' strategy thread. Is there a time limit on how old a post can be before it is editable? Or is it just posts that were converted from the old board?

And, I have to say that back when I was playing 5 MP games at once, I'd fill up the 100 messages limit pretty quickly. Some turns I'd get 3 or 4 or 5 PMs from one player. Organizing gem contributions for a secret Dispel could be 10 or 15 messages for just one turn for one game. What I don't get is that PMs are actually really tiny, compared to attachments and most posts ... so why is the limit so low?

[Dedas]

* I don't seem to be able to edit my own posts ... but I'm sure that's just me ... is it? If I can figure out how to edit my posts, then I can delete this line!


Editing is very possible for me (and easy too) by just clicking the edit button under my post. Very capable forum software I must say but it could be used in a much better way.

[vfb]

Dedas, can you Edit all your pre-conversion posts too?

(another edit) One good thing about this new board is that the Dom3 ads now seem to be served from beta.shrapnelgames.com. So at least I have any easy way to block them! And not worry about my wife looking over my shoulder and thinking I'm on Adult Friend Finder.

[Dedas]

No I can't... just post-conversion posts apparently.

[vfb]

Oh ... now my Edit button is gone for the above posts. Must be some kind of timestamp thing after all. Looks like it's less than an hour, too.

Edit Did an edit of this post, then cut & pasted the post number from above, and got this message:

The administrator has specified that you can only edit messages for 30 minutes after you have posted. This limit has expired, so you must contact the administrator to make alterations on your message.

Is that just the default for the new software? For MP games we need to edit the very first post quite a bit, and often many days or months after it was first posted:

* When the game parameters have been decided on.

* When the map isn't decided in advance.

* When pretenders get submitted.

* When somebody becomes dead or AI.

* When someone subs for a nation.

* When the game's over.

[Zeldor]

I really expected something good... forums were down for many days, many times.

The really bad thing is that new message does not replace oldest one, so if someone has 100PMs already he cannot get any new ones... and by default it puts copies of all you send into sent mail, so it makes just 50PMs. Add the fact that I got all my Sent Items that I deleted about 10 days ago present here, almost 700 messages! It was a bit over the limit, so no one could contact me...

[Psycho]

I am sure that the new forums are much safer and have some neat new features, but I liked the appearance of the old ones much more. Is there any way we can customize the appearance of the forums, so they would look like we're used to?

[Annette]

Good morning and thank you for returning after what seemed to all of us an excruciating amount of down time. When Mindi arrives this morning, she will designate a central location for reporting bugs so we can efficiently respond and make the necessary tweaks to ensure all features are working as they should. I'll respond to some of your questions and comments here, and it's possible this thread may be moved or merged once that area is set up.



1. The tiny stored PM cap.

I know that there was a huge issue with the number of PMs being saved in people's accounts, but the current 100 message limit is far too low. I generate well over 100 messages from a single game. I use the board PM system explicitly so that I can store those messages and look at them later in case I forget about an agreement/trade/pact. Since I usually play in 4-5 games at any given time, I can usually expect a load of about 300-1000 messages depending on whether or not I survive for a long time.

In short, the cap was put on because a tiny fraction of the users were clogging up the database with their PMs. PLEASE raise the cap to something more reasonable, say 1000 PMs, so that I can continue to use the on board PM system to do diplomacy.

If I understand correctly, the pm cap is something we may be able to adjust in the near future. One of the new features we'd like for you to try is the ability to download your pm's to XML, CSV or Text. When you're viewing your list of pm's, you'll see this option at the bottom of the page. It would be very helpful if you give this a try and see if it is a viable way to manage and store your pm's during an mp game. It would be helpful to hear feedback on what an ideal number for the cap would be. We can't allow it to be limitless, as it was on the old board.

The board itself seems smaller. It's like someone took it and squished it in from the sides. There's less room given to the individual threads, and I find the screen much more "busy" with irrelevant stuff. I'd really like to see the individual cell size of each thread increased (when browsing from a general page outside of a specific thread) as well as the text inside of those cells.

Basically I feel like I'm playing in this tiny little sandbox and not using the majority of the window.

The page is set at a fixed width and set to accomodate a variety of screen resolutions. Please go in to your control panel (User CP), then to Settings & Options, then to Edit Options and test the options provided there.

The number of icon usable for the main thread of the posts has shrunk considerably. I always used the icons to show a difference between the multiplayer game threads so that they're easy to pick out. So, basically, please add more icons that we can use for the post ones.

4. I dislike the "new post" icon. I felt the way the old system worked where the thread itself was simply bolded was much more effective. It's more difficult to differentiate between a thread that has a new post in it than one that doesn't because the icons are all so similar.

I'll have to defer this to Mindi, as I'm not sure what's available and what is fixed as part of Tim's design plan.

5. Apparently there's no way to delete posts anymore :( How frustrating. Can an admin please move this to the general board?

This is a feature that will not change and is in place for moderation purposes. If we could have had this feature on our old boards, we would have. There is time limit up to which you may edit your post - I believe it is 30 minutes. That should be adequate time for a poster to reread what has written, make corrections and clarifications if necessary. It was extremely difficult to moderate forums when users had the ability to make a post which violated our rules then edit it before a moderator could review what was said. You are always welcome to ask a moderator to edit your post after the 30 minute window has closed.

VFB brings up a good point about the need to edit mp game announcements, which I will discuss with our team to see what a possible solution may be for that.

I really expected something good... forums were down for many days, many times.

The really bad thing is that new message does not replace oldest one, so if someone has 100PMs already he cannot get any new ones... and by default it puts copies of all you send into sent mail, so it makes just 50PMs. Add the fact that I got all my Sent Items that I deleted about 10 days ago present here, almost 700 messages! It was a bit over the limit, so no one could contact me...

This was a known issue identified during our testing. Please read Mindi's announcement here:
SITE CONVERSION THIS WEEKEND!!! (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39984)

As to the comments I've read so far about appearance, please go into your User CP panel and explore your editing options. I think some of the concerns raised here can be adjusted by changing your personal options. The sidebars and game advertisements are here to keep the "lights turned on" . Please understand Shrapnel Games' primary business is to sell games. We appreciate your participation here and making this your forum home. We understand it's difficult to adjust to a completely new look and changes in functionality. We hope you'll enjoy trying out the new features available and find they're worth bearing with us until this new home feels comfortable, too.

[Zeldor]

Annette:

Few things about PMs:
1. Can you globally turn off automatic saving copies of sent messages? You need to tick that off every time to save space.
2. Selecting all messages in one folder does not work - it selects only one page, so if you want to export or delete you need to do it page by page.
3. Exported messages looks really really ugly and unreadable, maybe it's because that are old messages with old forum formatting.
4. Probably 500 messages in Inbox would be fine, maybe add some additional space for people with higher ranks or smth similar. 1 day of diplomacy in 1 game can generate 20-50 messages a day! Some people would need to export few times a week and finding trade agreements and NAPs would be really painful [point 3].

For MP games threads - could you just enable unlimited modifying of 1st post in the thread? And I really don't see anything bad about editing posts later.

And yeah, I really missed the announcement about forums going down that weekend :)

[Executor]

The old forum worked so much better for me, much easier to handle and the appearance of the forums was nicer, and I too think 100 PM's is not nearly enough for people who are in multiple games or even admins.

[Annette]

Here's the official thread for reporting bugs:http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=40153

[Mindi]

Everyone, please see the recent thread I posted in this forum for common answers to some of these questions. If you have questions that cover something DIFFERENT than I covered in that thread I will answer but since many of the questions asked in this thread are covered there, please start a new thread to do so.

[Executor]

I'm starting to like it less and less with every passing minute!!!
And what are these orange blue and green lines under personal info about???

[Mindi]

The bars are vbexperience, it's a different way of measuring your activity. Awards are also given out for different things. That is an area that is still being tweaked, all we have in currently is the base install for it. Eventually you may be able to 'earn' different options on the board through some of these type of tools.

[llamabeast]

I agree with essentially all of the points raised in this thread.

Shrapnel games is, so far as I can tell, an excellent publisher, and technically they also appear to be highly competent (thanks Mindi, Richard, and anyone involved in that aspect of things). However, I must admit I think site design is not a forte. There are a startling number of features in the new forum design that simply fail to follow simple principles of user-friendliness. Here are some examples:

- An astonishing proportion of the vertical space on a page is taken up with the names of the poster and other stuff. For a typical short post, e.g. that of Executor a few posts above, perhaps only 20% of the space used by his post is actually used for content. This makes the thread hard to read and disrupts the flow.

- Below the last post on a thread we have a Bookmarks box, which frankly I imagine will be used very rarely at best, and then a Tags box, which similarly is not a key feature. Only then do we get to the quick reply box. Only a small proportion of the space in the quick reply box is actually available for text entry (and that in a tiny font which I presume is simply a temporary glitch). So, the process of replying to a post has several obstructions. Do these obstructions really make it difficult to reply? Of course not. Do they make it far more annoying than necessary? In my opinion, certainly.

- In the main page of a forum, there are many fewer topics visible at once than before. This is quite serious, since only those on the front page will really get attention. In the Dominions 3 forum at least, there tend to be more topics currently in discussion than will fit on the front page.

- Maybe I am just stupid, but I can't work out how to tell which forum topics have items added since I last read the topic. The key at the bottom tells me that the envelope should have some paper poking out of it. None of them do, so I don't know what to make of that. Those red envelopes are poor symbols anyway. The majority of the visual space of each symbol is a red envelope. Since that's present in all of them it conveys no information and is just a distraction. Better to have symbols which are more different (and also less garish).

- This point arises completely from ignorance of web design. I understand you have opted for a fixed-width design rather than the old variable scheme. Given the large number of people using widescreen monitors etc, may I be so forward as to ask what the rationale there was? This is not a criticism, as I simply don't understand the issues involved. Were it possible to add an option to use the full width of the screen, this would undoubtedly make many people happy.

Finally, I'd like to make a couple of comments about PMs. Firstly, the option to download the PMs as XML, CSV etc., while very welcome, will be useful to a minority of users. Most would not know what to do with such a file, and I have to say I'd have no idea how to display it conveniently, short of writing my own program.

Secondly, I'm at a loss to understand why such a tight space restriction is needed. I imagine there are perhaps 1000 regular users of these forums, but let's say 10000. I imagine a typical PM should require 1-2KB to store (1000-2000 characters is not short), but let's say 10KB. Finally, let's imagine a generous limit of 1000 PMs, which of course in reality not all users would fill. The resulting disk space required would be 10000 * 10 * 1000 = 100 million KB = 100GB. You can easily and cheaply buy a hard disk these days with a capacity of 500GB. Hell, if that's the problem, just give us a donate button and we'll buy you one, it wouldn't cost much at all. So perhaps the problem isn't disk space, in which case I would be genuinely interested to hear where the bottleneck lies.

I do realise there has been an insane amount of work gone into making these forums work, and I do greatly appreciate that. There is just room for a few tweaks in order to make it the nice place to spend time we have been lucky enough to grow accustomed to.

[Gandalf Parker]

I meant to ask this earlier.
Can we finally change the title of the web pages so that the name of the tags and bookmarks is not Intel Forums?
I would prefer if each one started with "Shrapnel"

[Mindi]

I agree with essentially all of the points raised in this thread.

Shrapnel games is, so far as I can tell, an excellent publisher, and technically they also appear to be highly competent (thanks Mindi, Richard, and anyone involved in that aspect of things). However, I must admit I think site design is not a forte. There are a startling number of features in the new forum design that simply fail to follow simple principles of user-friendliness. Here are some examples:

- An astonishing proportion of the vertical space on a page is taken up with the names of the poster and other stuff. For a typical short post, e.g. that of Executor a few posts above, perhaps only 20% of the space used by his post is actually used for content. This makes the thread hard to read and disrupts the flow.

As told to you in the moderator forum during the forum testing, there simply isn't a better way to do it. If we put them on the side like the old forum, it will shrink the forum width even more and since we went to a fixed width this simply isn't a user friendly option. If you are wanting to go back to a percentage based site from the fixed width site, well you're going to continue wanting because that isn't happening.


- Below the last post on a thread we have a Bookmarks box, which frankly I imagine will be used very rarely at best, and then a Tags box, which similarly is not a key feature. Only then do we get to the quick reply box. Only a small proportion of the space in the quick reply box is actually available for text entry (and that in a tiny font which I presume is simply a temporary glitch). So, the process of replying to a post has several obstructions. Do these obstructions really make it difficult to reply? Of course not. Do they make it far more annoying than necessary? In my opinion, certainly.

Again this was discussed in the moderator forum during testing and all of which is your opinion. When people use bookmarks it helps the site get more visibility which in turn sells more games which keeps the games you like being published. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Tags is a great feature which I forgot to list on my PLEASE READ thread, but again a personal preference if you don't like them. When tags are used it allows folks to find things they are interested in more quickly, this is a good thing.


- In the main page of a forum, there are many fewer topics visible at once than before. This is quite serious, since only those on the front page will really get attention. In the Dominions 3 forum at least, there tend to be more topics currently in discussion than will fit on the front page.

Currently this setting is set to 20 threads (not including stickies), I may change these settings eventually, but really I think you are blowing the seriousness of this issue out of proportion. Typically in would take a many days for anything to scroll of the front page as there are only so many new threads posted in a day. Yes it might scroll a bit sooner, but not so much that it is hard to keep up for regular users.

- Maybe I am just stupid, but I can't work out how to tell which forum topics have items added since I last read the topic. The key at the bottom tells me that the envelope should have some paper poking out of it. None of them do, so I don't know what to make of that. Those red envelopes are poor symbols anyway. The majority of the visual space of each symbol is a red envelope. Since that's present in all of them it conveys no information and is just a distraction. Better to have symbols which are more different (and also less garish).

Again, you are bringing up things already addressed in the moderator forum during testing. Just because you haven't gotten your way doesn't give you a right to stomp yoru feet and yell it at the top of your lungs. The easiest way to find out what is new when you come in is new threads and threads that have new posts in them since you were last here are in bold. There is an arrow to the left of the thread title that when clicked will take you to the new post.

- This point arises completely from ignorance of web design. I understand you have opted for a fixed-width design rather than the old variable scheme. Given the large number of people using widescreen monitors etc, may I be so forward as to ask what the rationale there was? This is not a criticism, as I simply don't understand the issues involved. Were it possible to add an option to use the full width of the screen, this would undoubtedly make many people happy.

Addressed and answered in my PLEASE READ thread. It's for the cohesiveness of the site and really fixed width is the standard for many sites these days, it's not as if we are doing something that is a rarity. I have a widescreen monitor too, but there are many sites I have that are fixed width and most are set for the predominate standard width right now which is 1024wide.

Finally, I'd like to make a couple of comments about PMs. Firstly, the option to download the PMs as XML, CSV etc., while very welcome, will be useful to a minority of users. Most would not know what to do with such a file, and I have to say I'd have no idea how to display it conveniently, short of writing my own program.

This is ridiculous, if you don't know how to use an XML or CSV, simply download it as .txt (text file), save it to your desktop and click on it. It will open in any word processing program you have and is simple to read. No real knowledge of any in depth computer skills necessary. If you know how to get on the internet and use a PM, you should EASILY be able to download a text file and double click on it to open it up. Whatever program that is associated on your computer with text files will auto open it once you double click on it.

Secondly, I'm at a loss to understand why such a tight space restriction is needed. I imagine there are perhaps 1000 regular users of these forums, but let's say 10000. I imagine a typical PM should require 1-2KB to store (1000-2000 characters is not short), but let's say 10KB. Finally, let's imagine a generous limit of 1000 PMs, which of course in reality not all users would fill. The resulting disk space required would be 10000 * 10 * 1000 = 100 million KB = 100GB. You can easily and cheaply buy a hard disk these days with a capacity of 500GB. Hell, if that's the problem, just give us a donate button and we'll buy you one, it wouldn't cost much at all. So perhaps the problem isn't disk space, in which case I would be genuinely interested to hear where the bottleneck lies.

Ah, but you haven't thought of a lot of other things like performance issues from large tables and the fact that a small percentage of users like to abuse this feature and use it as a replacement for email. Frankly almost all sites put a limit on PMs and had our old software had that feature, we would have too. We created a monster by not doing so and now we're correcting the problem. We have raised the limit as posted in this forum and the moderator forum (FYI) to let people know what the new limits are. Again, unless you are going to respond to that same PM multiple times, once you have read and/or responded to a PM it's not necessary to keep in our system, it can be downloaded. And for pete's sake if you get a read receipt, delete it after you get it! There's no reason to keep things like that. For most people I imagine they can download their PMs once every couple of months and keep their boxes clean....others more often, most people even less often or they may never download them at all.

I do realise there has been an insane amount of work gone into making these forums work, and I do greatly appreciate that. There is just room for a few tweaks in order to make it the nice place to spend time we have been lucky enough to grow accustomed to.

I'm glad you realize that a lot of work went into this. Maybe next time your attitude in your posts will reflect that considering we've talked about almost all of this stuff previously in the moderator area. I understand you and others don't like change, but I will leave you with this quote that my husband loves to use in his job which I think is very appropriate here:

Change is inevitable. How you handle to change is controllable.

[Amhazair]

EDITING: Editing on the old board use to have a cap of 6 hours and eventually it became broken in the software allowing the users to edit without cap limits as some of you have realized, this has been fixed with the new board software and has been restricted to 30 minutes. There are various moderation reasons to do this, for one we have people who get into arguments and then go back and edit and act like they didn’t say the things they did.


Another reason for the cap is so if you get angry and leave over some disagreement with another user, you cannot edit out useful comment that you had contributed to the community. In particular this happened with one user in the Dom 3 community and frankly that kind of behavior is extremely childish, but because some people act that way when they get angry we have to have some sort of stop in place to prevent one user from harming the community at large.


We've heard this may be a problem in MP game threads. We are going to examine our options before making any decisions. As others have posted here, the ability to edit posts is indeed very useful for MP games, and it is nice that you're taking this issue under consideration.

It isn't only for MP games this comes in handy though. It is quite common for some people to post (sometimes quite long & detailed) strategy tips/suggestions/guides and similar things (And I'm not talking about you only Baalz. ;) ). Quite often these posts are the start for an intresting and fertile discussion on the subject, and sometimes the OP would like to be able to edit his first post to include the suggestions, tips, and insights provided by the rest of the community.

It would be nice if it would be possible to at least retain the ability to edit the OP's of each thread, (This would also solve the MP issue mentioned before. ) though I don't have the slightest idea about the software issues involved.

[Twan]

Personnally my main complaint is the limit on edit policy. I find extremely unadapted especially considering posts can have attachments like mods or maps, and it's not your interest to see old versions use space on the forums, nor the interest of players to have to go through 50 posts to find the good ones, nor of course the interest of the poor moderators to have to do the work each time someone want to edit something somewhere. (And as said above this policy show a lack of knowledge of how MP threads are used too.)

I support Zeldor's suggestion : make at least the first post of each thread editable without time limit (or better the first page of each thread, so a big list separated in several posts would be editable too), or better just remove this stupid limit (seriously are moderation problems so big here that you need a limit when far bigger boards don't seem to consider it necessary ? -don't know any board where users have a time limit on their editing rights).

.

[Mindi]

It would be nice if it would be possible to at least retain the ability to edit the OP's of each thread, (This would also solve the MP issue mentioned before. ) though I don't have the slightest idea about the software issues involved.

Good suggestion, I'll put it on the list of possible solutions to that issue.

[Mindi]

I support Zeldor's suggestion : make at least the first post of each thread editable without time limit (or better the first page of each thread, so a big list separated in several posts would be editable too), or better just remove this stupid limit (seriously are moderation problems so big here that you need a limit when far bigger boards don't seem to consider it necessary ? -don't know any board where users have a time limit on their editing rights).


Stupid limit to you, smart limit to us and yes you would be surprised about how much of an issue the editing thing is whenever a flame war breaks out or a user gets mad and deletes content. And yes there are plenty of places that limit editing. Some places don't allow it at all for that matter. We're trying to find a good compromise on those people who want to add something to their post or fix posting/typing errors without getting into a situation where we do he said she said and don't know the truth. We'll be looking at our options but until we can do that this issue is closed. We've heard from all of you and will examine it, but continuing to complain will not make that happen any faster.

[llamabeast]

I wasn't trying to be unhelpful Mindi. I'm sorry if it came across that way. I understand this must be a pretty rotten day for you.

(regarding vertical space) As told to you in the moderator forum during the forum testing, there simply isn't a better way to do it.

If it is possible (and of course I don't know that it is), there is a good deal of room for rearrangement. The avatar pictures don't need to be so big (the old size was fine), and the graphs could be placed alongside all the text in the top right rather than below it. Finally there is a bit of space underneath the main header which just contains the post symbol, generally a bit of paper. This could be incorporated somewhere in the main header. All those measures together would make a big difference.

With regard to the bookmarks - yes, sorry, that is my personal opinion, and I only repeated it here to open it to debate. Sorry if that was an aggravating thing to do. I still feel that they would be used just as often if placed below the Quick Reply box - I'm certainly not suggesting they be removed! - and that would generally add to the ease of use of the site.

Regarding the number of threads on the front page, my feeling is that generally are more than 20 active at any one time. Maybe I'm wrong though. Since I guess it's easy to change at any point, it isn't a big deal.

Apologies for missing the fixed-width thing in the "please read" thread.

This is ridiculous, if you don't know how to use an XML or CSV, simply download it as .txt (text file), save it to your desktop and click on it.

After ending up doing a lot of technical support over the last year or two with my Dom3 server, I merely venture to suggest you may be being overoptimistic. It's not a big deal though, if people aren't sure they can just post a question on the board and they will quickly find help. So disregard that point.

Ah, but you haven't thought of a lot of other things like performance issues from large tables

Fair enough, I wondered if it might be something like that. I've never done any database programming, so couldn't form a judgement there.

Again, apologies if my tone overstepped the mark. I am honestly merely trying to help, but I think perhaps my judgement was off. Particularly in the second paragraph, which was just stupid, particularly on a day like today. Everyone is stupid sometimes.

[llamabeast]

It would be nice if it would be possible to at least retain the ability to edit the OP's of each thread, (This would also solve the MP issue mentioned before.

This is a very good idea.

[Mindi]

I wasn't trying to be unhelpful Mindi. I'm sorry if it came across that way. I understand this must be a pretty rotten day for you.

No I wouldn't say that, in some ways it's a great day for Shrapnel, but I'm not going to tolerate a lot of nit picking considering what we've went through and what all is working RIGHT. Many other sites that do conversions like this take many more days or even weeks to be back up again. We did this in less than 3 days with 3 to 4 people at a time working on it! This is a great accomplishment but that also means we're exhausted and are still working on it so patience and kindness go a long way.


If it is possible (and of course I don't know that it is), there is a good deal of room for rearrangement. The avatar pictures don't need to be so big (the old size was fine), and the graphs could be placed alongside all the text in the top right rather than below it. Finally there is a bit of space underneath the main header which just contains the post symbol, generally a bit of paper. This could be incorporated somewhere in the main header. All those measures together would make a big difference.

As someone else said in the last couple of weeks, we have one of the smallest allowed avatar sizes of any board, so the fact that it's 32 pixels higher now is not a big amount of space IMO. As for putting other things across the top of the postbit instead of under the right stats, there are some issues with that as user IDs are different in length for different users which means that space is variable and will probably look a mess if too much stuff is put up there. It may even push out the side of the table throwing the whole template off. As far as the line with the post symbo and post time, if you look on the right hand side of that same line there are other important symbols and functionality, including the box for moderators to click to use moderation for that post. I don't know if that can even be changed in vb or if it's that big of a deal to try to change all the templates to do so.


With regard to the bookmarks - yes, sorry, that is my personal opinion, and I only repeated it here to open it to debate. Sorry if that was an aggravating thing to do. I still feel that they would be used just as often if placed below the Quick Reply box - I'm certainly not suggesting they be removed! - and that would generally add to the ease of use of the site.

You should be lucky I put them at the bottom of a thread and not the top. ;)


After ending up doing a lot of technical support over the last year or two with my Dom3 server, I merely venture to suggest you may be being overoptimistic. It's not a big deal though, if people aren't sure they can just post a question on the board and they will quickly find help. So disregard that point.

Please tell me what is so hard. You click on the txt, it opens a box and asks you were you want to save it on your computer. Once saved, you open it....again, I'm not seeing what's so hard. Especially coming from anyone who has uploaded or downloaded a file before. It's a basic computer skill that anyone learns after a short time online.

[Zeldor]

Mindi:

It looks like only Dominions MP players are posting here. The thing is that game is turn-based strategy and is played by e-mail. That requires some other communication method for diplomacy and trade. You just cannot wait few days for an in-game reply. E-mails don't work for obvious reasons, both privacy and easy of use - you know who is playing that nation, so you simply PM him, instead of PMing him for e-mail address :)

That is quite mature community that does not need to be poked in the eyes with that ugly childish addons [btw, that women in new 'I want my dominions' ad looks like she needs some medical attention]. There should be an option to get rid of that bookmarks tab, also that strang xp/activity bars. We are not 11 old children that need to write and link everything we do.

Width is the big issue too, probably around 90% monitors sold now are widescreen now and standard size now is 19-22". And people want to make use of it, not get squeezed by tiny text, tiny amount of threads and cluttered space.

Everyone here values all work done by Shrapnel and Illwinter and we want better forum both for you and us. But the thing is that if it stays like that we can expect to see a creation of new forum [for example on llamaserver] and migration of MP community there. And they would just ignore Shrapnel forums and all those ads, so no exposure and no sales, as you said.

[Mindi]

Mindi:

It looks like only Dominions MP players are posting here. The thing is that game is turn-based strategy and is played by e-mail. That requires some other communication method for diplomacy and trade. You just cannot wait few days for an in-game reply. E-mails don't work for obvious reasons, both privacy and easy of use - you know who is playing that nation, so you simply PM him, instead of PMing him for e-mail address :)

That is quite mature community that does not need to be poked in the eyes with that ugly childish addons [btw, that women in new 'I want my dominions' ad looks like she needs some medical attention]. There should be an option to get rid of that bookmarks tab, also that strang xp/activity bars. We are not 11 old children that need to write and link everything we do.

Width is the big issue too, probably around 90% monitors sold now are widescreen now and standard size now is 19-22". And people want to make use of it, not get squeezed by tiny text, tiny amount of threads and cluttered space.

Everyone here values all work done by Shrapnel and Illwinter and we want better forum both for you and us. But the thing is that if it stays like that we can expect to see a creation of new forum [for example on llamaserver] and migration of MP community there. And they would just ignore Shrapnel forums and all those ads, so no exposure and no sales, as you said.

As I told llamabeast, kindness and patience would go far in being heard. Threats will get you no where. And I would dare say that social networking is not 'childish'.....it may not be your cup of tea, but it's the predominant type of community on the internet these days.

And again, I have a wide screen monitor as well, but I still go to many sites that have fixed width. Most people design sites with the predominant screen resolution in mind at the time. That resolution right now is 1024.

[llamabeast]

Thanks again for your responses Mindi. Just one small clarification:

As far as the line with the post symbo and post time, if you look on the right hand side of that same line there are other important symbols and functionality, including the box for moderators to click to use moderation for that post.

Sorry, I meant the bit just below the poster's name, rather than the bit above it. That seems only to contain the bit of paper.

You should be lucky I put them at the bottom of a thread and not the top.

:)

[Zeldor]

Mindi:

No threats intended :) Just some advices, I did see some online communities collapsing in my life and I really don't want to see anything bad happening with the great thing we have here.

[archaeolept]

Christ almighty.

the forums have gone from being ugly and functional to being ugly and non-functional.

I am assaulted by flashing adds and animated gifs at the side of thread titles. These make it impossible for me to stare at the page. I'm pretty sure it was discovered back in the internet prehistory that flashing objects, animated gifs, and the like are at best extremely distracting and at worst impossible to look at.

I had to block all images from shrapnel in order for me to be able to read the forums

It seems, however, that little things like "reply" buttons (and all the others) are also actually images, and so blocked.

Hence, the whole forum is currently a disaster.

[Mindi]

Okay, for those of you who found the animated images distracting, I have removed how many of them you can see on the page before clicking 'more' to get additional smilies. I don't know what I can do about the post icons, I will have to look into that one.

[Dedas]

I would also hate to see the more dedicated part of the Dom3 community move to another forum better suited to their needs. That would be a very unfortunate event indeed - for all parties involved. But things like childish advertisement (we are wargamers after all, we like to be taken serious :)), a cluttered and hard to use interface and other similar things will go a long way in making that come true.

Most of us are of course patient, especially so soon after the software change. But at least I got a little worried after seeing the new forum, if not chocked. :)

[Mindi]

Christ almighty.

the forums have gone from being ugly and functional to being ugly and non-functional.

I am assaulted by flashing adds and animated gifs at the side of thread titles. These make it impossible for me to stare at the page. I'm pretty sure it was discovered back in the internet prehistory that flashing objects, animated gifs, and the like are at best extremely distracting and at worst impossible to look at.

I had to block all images from shrapnel in order for me to be able to read the forums

It seems, however, that little things like "reply" buttons (and all the others) are also actually images, and so blocked.

Hence, the whole forum is currently a disaster.

The only addition to the ads is the one on the side. The one at the top of the forums was there before and considering we shrunk the latest news blocks on the side, the ad box takes up no additional space. There is no animated gifs at the side of thread titles unless someone has chosen a animated post icon of which there are only 2.

[Mindi]

Thanks again for your responses Mindi. Just one small clarification:

Sorry, I meant the bit just below the poster's name, rather than the bit above it. That seems only to contain the bit of paper.


Ahhh, basically taking that away would take away a poster's ability to post a seperate title to their response. The reason you are only seing a piece of paper is because no one who has replied has titled their response differently than the OP.

[archaeolept]

animated icon at the side was a pair of clapping hands. The flashing game ads were previously at the top of the page, and so could be gotten out of the visual space just by scrolling down a bit. the ads now at the left cannot be.

also, thanks for upping pms to 300, but now the sent and recieved seem to have been duplicated... i'm now at over 200 of my 300 used ;p

[Mindi]

Those of you who are being auto logged out, are you clicking the "remember me" box when you log in? As long as you have clicked that box, you should not be logged out.

[Endoperez]

It seems that the forum update mostly improves the moderator side of things. I was expecting something that helped on the user side, not something that totally changed the look. :( This is made worse by the fact that the new look is horrible, especially the current shrapnel games from page, and especially the bland, BLUE cd in the middle. It's like a hole in the middle of a page, not an eye-catcher, and a blank cd certainly doesn't give a good image of your games. Other problems I have with the current Shrapnel Games frontpage. I understand it's still under construction (link to free games doesn't work), but IMO that's just more reason to point these out now when people are still working on it.

- The cursive titles It's what we do and Buy it! Buy it! are horrible. Please replace them. Defining your publishing as something you do feels bland, and the buy it! line seems way too direct, even desperate. IMO, even something like what we do best and order today! would be a vast improvement. I'd also like to see It amuses us and take it! take it! (blog and free games, respectively) changed. I don't think your blog (from which I've only read discussions about the niche game economy) is supposed to be amusing, and Take it! again goes way above my comfort level.

- The title images (Our games, Our blog, Our forums etc) should link to the page in question.

- I really hope the images under "Our games" are temporary. They make it look like all your games were sold either in dvd cases or in boxes, but at least Dominions 3 isn't.

- Ordering your games alphabetically by category doesn't work. The current way starts from BOARD games, and ENDS in STRATEGY and WAR. This doesn't work for "publisher of permier war and strategy games".


Being able to edit first posts of threads is important, but preferably there should be some way to set any post as always-editable, because there are mods (e.g. Conceptual Balance for Dom3) that have several different versions that are made downloadable as different attachments. When a version changes, all of these should be edited.
Perhaps making all posts with attachments always editable?


Color scheme of the new forum is bland. The old brown gave the forum most of its feeling, IMO. Please bring it back, if possible.

Graphic ads on the side of the forum are really distracting. Text ads on the side are fine, and image ads on top and on bottom are tolerable, but breaking the color scheme with off-color ad is really bad. If you need an image ad on the sidebar, please put it to the top of the bar, to where the main menu is currently located.


The new forum software doesn't jump to the first unread post of a thread when the thread is opened normally. You have to click the tiny arrow-icon next to its name. This is counter-intuitive. Most people don't want to read the whole thread again every time even a single post is added to it, and the first page could still be opened by selecting the '1' that's after the title.


As said before, the poster's name on top of each post takes huge amount of space. I really liked the old system, but I understand you aren't changing back to it. Still, could some vertical space be saved by moving some of the info to the center of the name/avatar line? Perhaps the new activity indicator bars? Also, it might be better to limit the avatar size so that large avatar won't strech that space any further. Changing it now, before new, bigger avatars are uploaded, would be better.


The size of text in the reply box is tiny when compared to the actual text size. This might be due to my personal settings, but I haven't been able to find an option for changing text size in the new software. Is there any way to change the size of the text in text field, or the the size of the text on viewn posts?

EDIT:
As some other people, I was shocked when I first saw the new forum. Color scheme and look were a big part in that. I even felt like this wasn't the same forum at all, and that I might leave it just for that, and the small things yet to be ironed out.

[llamabeast]

Minor thing on the front page: It says "Please bare with us". This should be "Please bear with us", lest it appears to be an invitation for some group stripping.

[Mindi]

It seems that the forum update mostly improves the moderator side of things.

I won't address the site design as that wasn't my portion of the change over but I will say although there is a great addition to moderation there is also a great amount of new features for users. Read my "PLEASE READ" stickies, I posted some of the new features in there although I only touched on a portion of the new features. Also additional features will be coming.


Being able to edit first posts of threads is important, but preferably there should be some way to set any post as always-editable, because there are mods (e.g. Conceptual Balance for Dom3) that have several different versions that are made downloadable as different attachments. When a version changes, all of these should be edited.
Perhaps making all posts with attachments always editable?

Asked and answered as to why we don't want all posts to be always-editable. We've had a good suggestion about allow OPs to edite first posts, I'm going to investigate that option.


As said before, the poster's name on top of each post takes huge amount of space. I really liked the old system, but I understand you aren't changing back to it. Still, could some vertical space be saved by moving some of the info to the center of the name/avatar line? Perhaps the new activity indicator bars? Also, it might be better to limit the avatar size so that large avatar won't strech that space any further. Changing it now, before new, bigger avatars are uploaded, would be better.

Umm, we've posted for 3 weeks that the new avatar size is 80x80m and that no one CAN upload bigger avatars, so this is not an issue. As to why things are on the right or left and not in the middle, I think I answered the reasoning for that in an earlier post.


The size of text in the reply box is tiny when compared to the actual text size. This might be due to my personal settings, but I haven't been able to find an option for changing text size in the new software. Is there any way to change the size of the text in text field, or the the size of the text on viewn posts?

Let me check and see if something was changed. This is probably caused by existing users not being switched to the standard editor. I can probably do a mass update this evening to do this, but you can do this yourself by going into your usercp, edit options and near the bottom where it says editor, switch from basic to standard or expanded.

[llamabeast]

I was on Standard before and switched to Basic, which I prefer. However, in both cases the text size is very very small. If you fix the glitch with the Standard setting, would you mind fixing it for Basic as well? The current text size is definitely too small. (Just to be clear, I'm talking about the Quick Reply box here, and I think the main Reply box is the same).

[Sniper23]

i'm sorry to say i agree, the writing is to small and the on old board it was way better in telling if there's a new post or not,i have to agree with most thing's they have said but this new board does have the potencial to be better.by the way now i have to download spellcheck?

[Gandalf Parker]

I havent looked into it (distracted at the moment). But other options on the OP and MP thing...
Can we attach a text file and make it viewable?

From some of the comments it looks like some people need to remember that the purpose of these forums differ slightly between Shrapnel, and the users. Not much, but some.

Edit:
OK that seems to work all right for me. It allowed me to open it in NotePad.
So the first post can include a text file with all the changing info that used to be in the first post of the MP games. That is, if we are allowed to over-write the old one with a new one even after the editing time-out. That wont be any harder a routine to get used to than the idea of having the changing info in the first post was to get people used to doing.

[llamabeast]

Gandalf, while that is a solution (assuming you can edit the text file), it will be markedly less user-friendly than being able to edit the post directly.

I should say being able to edit the first post only would be reasonable. Not ideal by any means, but okay.

[Gandalf Parker]

There might also be a way to have it display directly in the message the way we used to do with images.
I might get a chance to play with it later, or someone else can try.

[Kristoffer O]

Ha!

I finally made it to the reply box!

At first I couldn't log in. Had a new 'space' in my login name. And something (don't know what) was missing in my profile ???

I'm having some trouble finding my way around, but that will probably change now that I am logged on.

Considering there is a picture gallery available now, I can't see why avatars and PM's should be limited. Hmm, it might be bandwidth related when I think about it. At least the avatars. Which reminds me, I need a new one.

I'm a bit concerned about the editing stuff as well. Editing the first post will probably solve the MP problem. The mod threads might be another issue. Editing the first post will probably cover most problems, but I imagine there might be instances where attachments are added by several people developing a mod and each ned to edit their own post to make their addition up to date. If the first poster administers everything it might work anyway.

Hmm, I'd better poke around some more to lessen my initial confusion.

[Mindi]

Ha!

I finally made it to the reply box!

At first I couldn't log in. Had a new 'space' in my login name. And something (don't know what) was missing in my profile ???

Was your username and login name different on the other board? We could only import one name so we went with username since that's what all the user's see.


Considering there is a picture gallery available now, I can't see why avatars and PM's should be limited. Hmm, it might be bandwidth related when I think about it. At least the avatars. Which reminds me, I need a new one.

Well the picture gallery will allow people to put pictures through their Usercp rather than uploading everything as attachments in posts. At least we hope that's the way users will use it because then those pictures won't be so hard to find. Avatars, size wise, is limited because of space issues.....as you can see people are already complaining because we are allowing 80x80 avatars instead of the previous 48x48. File size wise, we thought 20k is a big file allowance for an 80x80 pic. Do you disagree?


I'm a bit concerned about the editing stuff as well. Editing the first post will probably solve the MP problem. The mod threads might be another issue. Editing the first post will probably cover most problems, but I imagine there might be instances where attachments are added by several people developing a mod and each ned to edit their own post to make their addition up to date. If the first poster administers everything it might work anyway.

Still thinking on this one, I need to do some searching for possible solutions. Right now I'm working on the font size issue some people are seeing in the reply box.

[BadCompany]

I like this new look.It has some issues but remember site conversion sticky thread,they are still working out afew things.Be happy that the forum is up because like Mindi said,they could have just waited til everything was perfect(I missed the forums).

[Tim Brooks]

...not something that totally changed the look. :( This is made worse by the fact that the new look is horrible, especially the current shrapnel games from page, and especially the bland, BLUE cd in the middle. The cursive titles It's what we do and Buy it! Buy it! are horrible. Defining your publishing as something you do feels bland, and the buy it! line seems way too direct, even desperate.I don't think your blog is supposed to be amusing, and Take it! again goes way above my comfort level. I really hope the images under "Our games" are temporary. They make it look like all your games were sold either in dvd cases or in boxes, but at least Dominions 3 isn't. Ordering your games alphabetically by category doesn't work. The current way starts from BOARD games, and ENDS in STRATEGY and WAR. This doesn't work for "publisher of permier war and strategy games". Color scheme of the new forum is bland. The old brown gave the forum most of its feeling, IMO. Graphic ads on the side of the forum are really distracting. As said before, the poster's name on top of each post takes huge amount of space. As some other people, I was shocked when I first saw the new forum. Color scheme and look were a big part in that. I even felt like this wasn't the same forum at all, and that I might leave it just for that, and the small things yet to be ironed out.


Tell us what you 'really' think, Edoperez. :rant::tough::hammer::rant::soap:

Thanks Mindi, for all of your hard work! You are greatly appreciated, here at Shrapnel, if nowhere else.

[BadCompany]

Thanks Mindi, for all of your hard work! You are greatly appreciated, here at Shrapnel, if nowhere else.

Ditto.

[llamabeast]

Endoperez is, I fear, merely saying what many of us feel.

Not to worry though, early days and all that. There have already been a huge number of improvements since the preview version I saw as a moderator, and no doubt that preview version itself took a massive amount of work to set up.

[JimMorrison]

Personally I'm kind of a stickler for not having things "remember me", I don't like leaving my passwords laying around - even on Firefox.

Anyway Mindi, we know (or we SHOULD know) that you all went through a lot this weekend, and I for one also appreciate all the hard work and attention to detail that was paid. It's obvious that you all want these forums to be attractive AND functional. To not only entice random surfers, but to also properly display the communities that spring up around these games, and the high level of support they tend to receive from their developers.

The problem - and I do think it's ironic that there are so many comments from Dominions players, seeing as it is the highest selling title from Shrapnel, as well as claiming the most active community - is that we are being asked to give up a LOT of functionality and capability, for a lot of control and marketing (for Shrapnel).

I don't think that anyone meant to put anything in a threatening way, but there is wisdom in looking at this from more than a police sort of view. I see so many replies with "this was out of hand", "we don't want that", "people would do this", that remind me of someone cutting off their foot to stop from stubbing their toes.

All leading up to this conversion, many of us were a bit excited, because we kept being told the new software would "allow us to do so much". Currently all I see is that the software allows YOU to do so much - but all the users of the forums get, in trade for all that we are giving up, is slightly larger avatars.

I believe your team is highly underestimating the importance of the Edit issue. I believe you also badly underestimated the PM issue. 300 is still a bit cramped for a really active player, and I think it's a bit silly that the suggested answer is manually archiving what could potentially be 10-15 messages a day.

I'm personally in no hurry to go anywhere else - I like it here. But rather than viewing things as threatening, please just have a little break and then look at these issues again. It's not that people are itching for a reason to leave, are ungrateful, or are otherwise unhappy with Shrapnel. But the Dominions community is very active, and very prolific. It's in everyone's best interests if you at Shrapnel continue to provide room for us to do our thing, and if we keep our thrumming hive of activity here, posting links and drawing attention. Just to reiterate - we WANT to stay here, so please reconsider how inhospitable the new forum functions, for our needs. I won't even go into the look of it, I think if it works great, people will tend to get over the rest.

<3

[Dedas]

Great post Jim! This is exactly my feelings as well.

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, I'll second (or fifth) three things. First of all: Quick Reply is so tiny that I can barely even type in it. Can this be user-modified? It's very disorienting and hard on my eyes.

Secondly-the dark blue, aquamarine, white coloring is inherantly cold (ice=blue/white/aquamarine) and offputting. The orange-brown/parchment color was welcoming and warm. As it is, although the dark blue itself looks cool enough, the greyish aqua that occupies most of the body of the forum page looks dull and dreary, like dirty water. Very officelike, very corporate memo, not very gamer-friendly.

Third: By eliminating editing after half an hour, you've effectively killed four mod nations I was in the process of developing, atleast for a year or two. Please give us the ability to edit atleast the first post. It will save so many problems and so much confusion-not to mention so many posts.

Also, please keep the users in mind. A strong forum community is one of the best things Dominions3 has going for it. I'm sure there are a lot of other Shrapnel games out there that also benefit from it. It's not a threat to say that if you make bad choices about the forum, and the way it looks and works, that it's going to drive people away and make the ones who are here less active and less efficient. That's just the reality of the world we live in.

I don't hate the new board like cancer, but please don't "fix" what wasn't broken already, just in an effort to look shiny and new.

[Executor]

Like Kristoffer said his username was changed as was mine, that really troubled me for a while, first I thought I was deleted becouse I have a brother around here and I had my account almost deleted once before, but that problem is solved.
Anyway, been looking at this new forum, and the thing that is bothering me is, can't find the right word? It isn't reviewable ( pardon my English )
I do appreciate the effort to upgrade the forum and many thanks for putting it up before you made "everything perfect", but I guess that was the point for putting it out before it was done, to see how people react on it and to change it according to suggestions and complaint.
As far as I go, It's a little harder to link on other conversations and to follow up on the threads and I think that will cause people to lose interest a little, at least I have, and there are far less threads on the forum and only the first page gets full attention, so my opinion is that should be changed along with a little more PM's
Hope to see a new even more improved forum up soon.

[Mindi]

Ok, I'll second (or fifth) three things. First of all: Quick Reply is so tiny that I can barely even type in it. Can this be user-modified? It's very disorienting and hard on my eyes.

Yes, you have to go into the usercp and do edit options.....and switch from the basic to the standard editor. The basic editor quick reply box is set by vbulletin and is not an option easily changed in the back end. I'm continuing to look, but there is a very easy way to solve this problem per user by not using the basic editor.

[llamabeast]

And exactly mine too. Good work Jim.

I do sometimes get the feeling that we are considered annoying punks who criticise things, get in arguments with each other and abuse those privileges we are granted. We are in fact an exceptionally mature, intelligent and productive community. An incredible amount of good stuff is churned out on the Dominions 3 forums. There have been numerous studies done which show that when people are trusted and given privileges, they tend mostly to behave well. When a lack of trust is implied and privileges withdrawn, they have a far greater tendency to abuse whatever privileges remain, because the feeling of mutual trust has been broken (not, you understand, that I'm implying that is in danger of happening here, but it illustrates a general principle). Of course, because of your positions as staff you will tend to hear a great deal about anything that does go wrong, for example the guy who deleted all his posts when he left the forum. You are much less likely to notice the large quantity of useful stuff that goes on, the lists of things which are constantly maintained, posts edited to provide links to later posts which solved problems and so on.

[llamabeast]

Mindi, I have just switched back to the Standard editor once again and can confirm that that did not help. The text remains tiny.

Perhaps it may be a browser issue? I use Firefox 2 at work and Firefox 3 here - both show the problem.

[Mindi]

Like Kristoffer said his username was changed as was mine, that really troubled me for a while, first I thought I was deleted becouse I have a brother around here and I had my account almost deleted once before, but that problem is solved.

Again I ask, did you have a different login name than display/username? If so this was posted last week that you would no longer be able to use both and would be using the username/display name as your login name.

Anyway, been looking at this new forum, and the thing that is bothering me is, can't find the right word? It isn't reviewable ( pardon my English )
I do appreciate the effort to upgrade the forum and many thanks for putting it up before you made "everything perfect", but I guess that was the point for putting it out before it was done, to see how people react on it and to change it according to suggestions and complaint.

Actually the main point of putting it up before it was finished was not because we didn't have a path to getting finished, it was because we wanted the users to have as little downtime as possible. However there's always going to be little things that need fixed (functionality of some sort actually broken) during an upgrade of this level. No conversion like this is every perfectly smooth. That doesn't mean we won't take opinions and suggestions into consideration...to imply otherwise is insulting...but the site's been up for less than 24 hours and we're still tweaking things from a broken functionality standpoint. I suppose we could have been down for several more days and had everything absolutely perfect but we thought the users would prefer being able to use the forum over it being absolutely perfect on launch.

[llamabeast]

I suppose we could have been down for several more days and had everything absolutely perfect but we thought the users would prefer being able to use the forum over it being absolutely perfect on launch.

Yes, thanks, I think we do appreciate that. I have noticed things getting fixed before my eyes over the course of the day.

[Baalz]

As I told llamabeast, kindness and patience would go far in being heard. Threats will get you no where.

Mindi, I have to say you're coming across as extremely defensive and basically attacking the people in this community who are overwhelmingly being polite and offering constructive criticism, and feedback on how they use the forum and their preferences (note: everyone should follow this example). Llamabeast's posts (as always) were extremely polite and he was voicing opinions which seem to be overwhelmingly the sentiment of the people I've talked to in the community. Responding with a "STFU, this is how it is and you can take it or leave it" is an astoundingly great way to get people to do exactly that. I'm a professional software developer myself (as are several members of our community), and am quite familiar with the unsatisfiable demands of unreasonable customers and the difficulty of having people criticize something you've just spent a lot of time and effort on. I'm also realize that well thought out feedback is absolute gold and telling your users that they should just do everything differently because it works fine for how you use it is a great way to alienate your user base.

It's perfectly valid to say "I hear what you're saying, but we can't do it that way because of technical/business reasons". You did that a couple times, but mostly what I'm hearing is "we decided to do it this way and its not open to discussion. Don't bug me with suggestions".

The people in this community are invested in it, and you've got to realize it feels a bit like somebody just came into the corner pub where we've been hanging out and remodeled everything, changing the beer on tap and the music played. The dart board's not there anymore and, well I'll stop the analogy there but the point is that we *want* to like the new board and simply telling us to get used to the new music is mind boggling if your intent is to keep the same community - which is what *everyone* here wants.

I don't want to beat a dead horse on the issues that have already been brought up, but the reason that people are complaining about the PMs is because this is a pretty central facet to the MP community. Chopping off functionality here is a dangerous thing, and it does seem a bit surprising given the cost of disk space and Llamabeast's suggestion to put up a donate button.

The reason people are complaining about not being able to modify their posts is that this also a central facet of this community, from keeping lists of strategy guides up to date to maintaining a hall of fame. I often update my posts for anything from typos and misspellings to revising a strategy guide in light of something new I learned. This gives people a sense of ownership for the things they post, and chopping out intangibles like this is a dangerous game.

The above two changes, at least to me, make this feel like a less intimate site. This is also I feel the root of many of the smaller complaints from the fixed width to the smaller number of visible posts to the cooler tones being used.

Anyway, I realize a whole lot of effort has gone into this change, please take these suggestions as feature requests from people who are invested in seeing the site and community flourish.

[Executor]

Yes I had a different login name but I realized the issue latter when I failed to login for about half an hour.
I know I must be a little annoying, have nothing better to do at this point but just one more perhaps stupid question on my part,
what do exactly thanks stand for?
I think earlier it was mentioned something about privileges, and what stops one from saying e.g thank you mindi, executor, llama...
and make a thousand thanks post that will maybe get him some privileges?

[Micah]

Regarding the editing issue, is there a possibility of allowing free editing and simply backing up previous posts to some moderator-accessible archive? This would allow people to report any abusive posts that come up so that the mods could review the previous edits of the post and take action if needed. It could also be used to restore content from any disgruntled users (with a bit more work from the moderators). Luckily, I believe that both of these scenarios have been rare enough that it doesn't make sense to impact the functionality of the entire forum to deal with a very few bad eggs, even though it would require more work of the moderators when stuff like that does come up. Software limitations may, of course, prevent this from being a workable solution, but I thought I could ask. =)

[Mindi]

Mindi, I have to say you're coming across as extremely defensive and basically attacking the people in this community who are overwhelmingly being polite and offering constructive criticism, and feedback on how they use the forum and their preferences (note: everyone should follow this example).

I disagree. First off I have been fixing things all day based on feedback. The only thing I have gotten irritated about is the fact that certain things (some of which I have repeated said we have to examine all our options for) are being continuously brought up. The more I have to address the same issues that I don't have an answer for yet the less work on the forum I can get done. The less I can get done the more those things some of you are complaining about have to be put off and the longer it goes that any changes are delayed the more posts we get for the same exact things. It's cyclical and I've just asked for some patience.....i.e. waiting a bit before continuously harping on the same things. I don't think that's too much to ask.


Llamabeast's posts (as always) were extremely polite and he was voicing opinions which seem to be overwhelmingly the sentiment of the people I've talked to in the community. Responding with a "STFU, this is how it is and you can take it or leave it" is an astoundingly great way to get people to do exactly that. I'm a professional software developer myself (as are several members of our community), and am quite familiar with the unsatisfiable demands of unreasonable customers and the difficulty of having people criticize something you've just spent a lot of time and effort on. I'm also realize that well thought out feedback is absolute gold and telling your users that they should just do everything differently because it works fine for how you use it is a great way to alienate your user base.

It's perfectly valid to say "I hear what you're saying, but we can't do it that way because of technical/business reasons". You did that a couple times, but mostly what I'm hearing is "we decided to do it this way and its not open to discussion. Don't bug me with suggestions".

First off, I'm not going to discuss the llamabeast issue with you but it has to do with most of the same things being discussed in the moderator forum and our expectations for moderators. I would disagree in saying his post was polite given the circumstances, but that's between me and him at this point. Second off, there are certain things at this point that just CAN'T be changed and there are certain things that are out of my control. Everything else I have asked for patience on (I didn't say they wouldn't be changed at all, I said give us some time to evaluate options) and instead the same things keep being brought up. See the cyclical comment above.


I don't want to beat a dead horse on the issues that have already been brought up.

Again, see cyclical comment above.

[Mindi]

Yes I had a different login name but I realized the issue latter when I failed to login for about half an hour.
I know I must be a little annoying, have nothing better to do at this point but just one more perhaps stupid question on my part,
what do exactly thanks stand for?
I think earlier it was mentioned something about privileges, and what stops one from saying e.g thank you mindi, executor, llama...
and make a thousand thanks post that will maybe get him some privileges?

No the thanks is just that, to say thanks for a post. Vbexperience is the bars on the right hand side and it's new so we haven't done much with it yet, but that's what I was talking about with 'earning' features. It may stay, it may go......it's not high priority at the moment and it's strictly the base install for that mod so it hasn't been tweaked.

[Annette]

I'm going to reply in Mindi's place as she's busy at the moment working on some of the reported issues. Edit: I took so long writing this post that this sentence is no longer true!

Personally I'm kind of a stickler for not having things "remember me", I don't like leaving my passwords laying around - even on Firefox.

I'm pretty sure this was addressed in the main thread we're using for making bug reports. This is one of the things Mindi is looking into.

Anyway Mindi, we know (or we SHOULD know) that you all went through a lot this weekend, and I for one also appreciate all the hard work and attention to detail that was paid. It's obvious that you all want these forums to be attractive AND functional. To not only entice random surfers, but to also properly display the communities that spring up around these games, and the high level of support they tend to receive from their developers.

The problem - and I do think it's ironic that there are so many comments from Dominions players, seeing as it is the highest selling title from Shrapnel, as well as claiming the most active community - is that we are being asked to give up a LOT of functionality and capability, for a lot of control and marketing (for Shrapnel).

Yes, that is our goal. I don't agree that it's ironic that the majority of comments are from Dominions players; I think it's to be expected. As you said, the majority of our forum users are Dominions players, so it makes sense that they would make the majority of posts. We also have not yet publicly announced we're open after a three day hiatus, and I think we're seeing the Dominions community return more quickly than some others.

don't think that anyone meant to put anything in a threatening way, but there is wisdom in looking at this from more than a police sort of view. I see so many replies with "this was out of hand", "we don't want that", "people would do this", that remind me of someone cutting off their foot to stop from stubbing their toes.

All leading up to this conversion, many of us were a bit excited, because we kept being told the new software would "allow us to do so much". Currently all I see is that the software allows YOU to do so much - but all the users of the forums get, in trade for all that we are giving up, is slightly larger avatars.

Are slightly larger avatars truly the only new feature you see? And that just sort of happened; we don't really see it as an improved feature. With our goal of growing and servicing our tight-knit community in mind, we've added several social networking tools. Some of the new features like the ability to create social groups (added with the multi-player community in mind), post photo albums, and run arcade game tournaments may not be important to some, but we believe they will be enjoyed by others. These are the types of activities people who flock to social networking sites enjoy, and we believe it's a great opportunity to have these types of networking tools within our smaller community where many meaningful relationships already exist.

I'm not sure if you've had a chance to fully explore the expanded options in your user control panel, and I know that some of the functionality there is still being tweaked, but there are many more controllable options for you there than we offered in the previous format. One of my favorite new features is the ability to forward and copy other users within the private messaging system. Maybe I'm alone, but this will make my life easier.


I believe your team is highly underestimating the importance of the Edit issue. I believe you also badly underestimated the PM issue. 300 is still a bit cramped for a really active player, and I think it's a bit silly that the suggested answer is manually archiving what could potentially be 10-15 messages a day.

We're not underestimating the importance of the Edit issue at all! Mindi and I have both posted in various places that we've heard some good suggestions and are exploring options for this. Some very valid reasons for needing this feature to be improved have been brought to our attention, and this is a high priority on our list of changes. You won't see a full restore, and you probably won't see a change immediately, but please do understand we are committed to finding a compromise so we have a win/win situation. In the meantime, if anyone needs a post edited, it can be done by contacting a moderator with your request.

I think raising the pm limit to 300 is a good compromise, and we may have to come to agree to disagree on that for the time being. It's the same limit QT3 imposes on it's users, where there are also large communities running multi-player games. I understand it feels stifling to go from absolutely no limit to this, and that's our fault for being so liberal in the past then imposing a limit. The ability to export pm's to a text file, while seen by some as a punishment, is actually an enhancement some users have requested.

I'm personally in no hurry to go anywhere else - I like it here. But rather than viewing things as threatening, please just have a little break and then look at these issues again. It's not that people are itching for a reason to leave, are ungrateful, or are otherwise unhappy with Shrapnel. But the Dominions community is very active, and very prolific. It's in everyone's best interests if you at Shrapnel continue to provide room for us to do our thing, and if we keep our thrumming hive of activity here, posting links and drawing attention. Just to reiterate - we WANT to stay here, so please reconsider how inhospitable the new forum functions, for our needs. I won't even go into the look of it, I think if it works great, people will tend to get over the rest.

<3

And we WANT everyone to stay and be happy. We understand that there are some who are disappointed with the look and disagree with our design decisions. That's to be expected, and we experienced the same reactions when we launched what is now the "old" site. This is a good thread for voicing those opinions. What is truly helpful to us are constructive suggestions for improving functionality, and these should be reported in the stickied thread at the top of this forums.

Thank you for your feedback.

[Zeldor]

Mindi:

Welcome to the Internet :) That is normal that users want everything. And that is normal that they will repeat their demands, especially when they seem important for them. And you need patience to calmly respond to everything. Or hire some volunteers for that :) OH, and expecting patience from users is extremely unrealistic.

[Mindi]

Mindi:

Welcome to the Internet :) That is normal that users want everything. And that is normal that they will repeat their demands, especially when they seem important for them. And you need patience to calmly respond to everything. Or hire some volunteers for that :) OH, and expecting patience from users is extremely unrealistic.


I've been on the internet since 1993, so I'm no stranger to this behavior. ;)

That doesn't mean that I'm asking the impossible for some patience. Does it mean I will get it from everyone? No. But I don't think it's unreasonable to ask.

[Xietor]

My biggest complaint, and one that will keep me away, regrettably if it cannot be addressed, is the tiny font size. While my eyes were much better before i hit 40, now that I am over 40, I need at least normal sized font that we used to have in the old dominions forums.

I cannot imagine that the new microscopic font size is intentional, but is some kind of kink being worked out.

Thanks in advance for helping us older users whose eyes are not as sharp as they once were.

[llamabeast]

As has been pointed out, I guess it's true that we are in danger of running in panicking circles here. I've just been PMing with Mindi and she (like Annette above, and indeed Mindi herself earlier in the thread) reassures me that they're reading everything we're saying and they're taking it all into account, but of course these things take quite a while to implement, even working flat out as the Shrapnel team seem to be at the moment. So I guess we should probably reserve this thread for any issues which haven't already been discussed above, and in the meantime all try to be patient.

[Mindi]

My biggest complaint, and one that will keep me away, regrettably if it cannot be addressed, is the tiny font size. While my eyes were much better before i hit 40, now that I am over 40, I need at least normal sized font that we used to have in the old dominions forums.

I cannot imagine that the new microscopic font size is intentional, but is some kind of kink being worked out.

Thanks in advance for helping us older users whose eyes are not as sharp as they once were.


This is the issue I have been working on.....can you tell me what browser you are using?

[Executor]

I agree with Xietor, I'm 17 and I need my eyes.:)
But this is being worked on I think from reading Llamas posts.

Edit: Ahh Mindi beat me to it...

[JimMorrison]

Are slightly larger avatars truly the only new feature you see? And that just sort of happened; we don't really see it as an improved feature. With our goal of growing and servicing our tight-knit community in mind, we've added several social networking tools. Some of the new features like the ability to create social groups (added with the multi-player community in mind), post photo albums, and run arcade game tournaments may not be important to some, but we believe they will be enjoyed by others. These are the types of activities people who flock to social networking sites enjoy, and we believe it's a great opportunity to have these types of networking tools within our smaller community where many meaningful relationships already exist.

I'm not sure if you've had a chance to fully explore the expanded options in your user control panel, and I know that some of the functionality there is still being tweaked, but there are many more controllable options for you there than we offered in the previous format. One of my favorite new features is the ability to forward and copy other users within the private messaging system. Maybe I'm alone, but this will make my life easier.


Well, I think this passage here, hits on where the perceived value isn't translating from administrator > user. I know not everything is working fully, or implemented yet, don't get me wrong there. ;) But for many of us who are here already, the loss of things that are so integral to our use of the site, severely hampers our desire and enjoyment for seeking out and trying new features, so we only see the one that was pointed out so far, the avatars.

I am sure with the current user base, if you asked people if they would prefer to have unlimited PM storage, or "photo albums", the overwhelming majority would choose the PMs. And it is this sort of decision that has led to such frustration from a number of people here. I mean, how many PMs worth of data does a single 800x600 image take up? Doing away with multi-quoting (I noticed that the forum no longer quotes the quotes of a quoted post, guessing PMs no longer do either) would do wonders for the actual storage space involved. And then it bears asking if those stored PMs actually impacted the site functionality or stability before the conversion tests were started? If not, it seems entirely reasonable to just expect it the next time, and warn people pre-emptively in a few years when someone thinks it's a good idea to go through all of this hassle again. ;)

"Social Networking" is indeed popular. Mostly among 15 year olds, who shape much of what is "popular" in a consumer sense in this society. It can be directly tracked, that the rise or decline in popularity from on networking site to the next, is directly correlated to their high school age users. The argument being voiced is threefold: First, the Shrapnel community has very few users in that demographic. Secondly, adding that sort of tools is not entirely likely to spontaneously garner any sort of attention from them - shrapnelgames.com is not the new Facebook. And finally, if by some tragedy of fate they DID show up here it would be highly disruptive to the community at large, and would probably kill Shrapnel, for a short boost in sales.


I know you said that rather than keep hearing complaints, you want suggestions to make things better. It must be somewhat disheartening, after all of this effort, to think that what you are seeing as complaints, largely are actually those very suggestions - but are generally the same suggestion in other words, "please don't make so many changes". It's hard to make suggestions that you might see as constructive, when to us the long term usability of the forums themselves has been compromised. Shrapnel Games, and the games that you distribute, has always been about niche appeal. I've read very verbose and well thought out blogs, posts, and news releases explaining why it's never been Shrapnel's goal to be "popular", or to compete in popularity contests. I think we're all just completely mystified, and a little distressed at how much of these changes are based on what "popular" sites do.

<3 always,
James Douglas Morrison (AKA Damon Schmitt :P)

[Zeldor]

Mindi:

But you still do simplest admin mistake - reply to everything. Just go back to your job, let people do some complaining here and do a mass reply in 6, 12 or 24 hours. And you will have some things fixed by then, that is much better than posting replies :) And nothing bad will happen here.

[Mindi]

This is the issue I have been working on.....can you tell me what browser you are using?


Nevermind, browser doesn't matter. I have duplicated the issue and now am working on root cause analysis.

[HoneyBadger]

The size is quite a bit better since I switched modes. Thanks Mindi!!!
I'm guessing there's no way to alter the font size directly, though. But it's workable, as-is.

That's one problem, the second problem is that it still defaults to that ugly dishwater blue, and won't let me change my background within the field itself-atleast until I've actually sent the message itself. Is there help for this? I just want a nice, light grey background. Ideally, there'd be a way to user-define the whole forum colour-scheme, but I don't know if this would be possible?

[Endoperez]

Tell us what you 'really' think, Edoperez.

I told what I didn't like about the new page, and about the new forum. It's still under construction, and I pointed out what I'd rather see changed. In hindsight, using such a harsh tone meant that even if I had a point, it would be ignored because I wrote it in such a hostile way. I apologize for that.

I still think the site could be improved. Perhaps it's just my small monitor, but the blue cd in the frontpage takes up the whole middle section of the new page, and about half of the visible area is blue. Scrolling down or changing into fullscreen improve things a lot, but something of a different colour (like the wizard in Dom3 game page) works better for me.

Besides that first view of the frontpage, I don't have problems with the visual look of the page. Things like images not being links yet or the exact catchphrase above some section are just nitpicks. As I said, I'm sorry my dislike came out that harshly. That's partly because I was shocked at seeing something quite dear to me (I've spent years in these forums) change so much.

EDIT: I just discovered the button for thanking a person for a spesific post, and that's a wonderful "social networking" tool. That's great!

[llamabeast]

Jim,

Mindi mentioned before that the issue with PMs wasn't disk space, but the time taken for database access or some such. It's been implied that the old system was causing them some kind of problems. In any case, probably bringing up this issue again in a couple of weeks' time would be more productive since Shrapnel just have a silly amount on their plate at the moment. Indeed, that's probably the best course for all issues, since we'll probably find most of them fixed if we just don't think about it for a few days.

[BadCompany]

Dam*,like 3 pages of posts in how long?

I was just playing a scenario in winSPWW2,this must be a world record.

[llamabeast]

Busy times!

[Annette]

Mindi:

But you still do simplest admin mistake - reply to everything. Just go back to your job, let people do some complaining here and do a mass reply in 6, 12 or 24 hours. And you will have some things fixed by then, that is much better than posting replies :) And nothing bad will happen here.
LOL, good point, Zeldor. Just wait til Scott gets here :angel

Jim, I had an epiphany after reading your post. Once we have all the pages completely functional on the main site and once the forums are tweaked to death (or Mindi quits, whichever comes first), we will be sending out a press release announcing our new "look". I haven't read the release yet personally, but I'm assuming it will be like our others, explaining improvements and enhancements much as we do with a patch announcement. I just realized we haven't given you guys enough information - in our effort to get back up as quickly as we could, we forgot to tell you what we did and maybe a little about why we did it.

So please, give us a few more days to get things the way we want them. We really didn't make these changes in order to restrict your enjoyment, and I guess it appears that was our goal. This was an oversight on our part, for which I apologize.

[Annette]

I still think the site could be improved. Perhaps it's just my small monitor, but the blue cd in the frontpage takes up the whole middle section of the new page, and about half of the visible area is blue. Scrolling down or changing into fullscreen improve things a lot, but something of a different colour (like the wizard in Dom3 game page) works better for me.

Besides that first view of the frontpage, I don't have problems with the visual look of the page. Things like images not being links yet or the exact catchphrase above some section are just nitpicks. As I said, I'm sorry my dislike came out that harshly. That's partly because I was shocked at seeing something quite dear to me (I've spent years in these forums) change so much.

EDIT: I just discovered the button for thanking a person for a spesific post, and that's a wonderful "social networking" tool. That's great!

What resolution is your monitor set at?

[JimMorrison]

Jim,

Mindi mentioned before that the issue with PMs wasn't disk space, but the time taken for database access or some such. It's been implied that the old system was causing them some kind of problems. In any case, probably bringing up this issue again in a couple of weeks' time would be more productive since Shrapnel just have a silly amount on their plate at the moment. Indeed, that's probably the best course for all issues, since we'll probably find most of them fixed if we just don't think about it for a few days.


Indeed. Of course, that was the old system architecture, not this new system. ;) It was more a point about priorities and overt user needs, than anything else. <3

I agree that most things should settle out over time. Except the post editing issue. That one is not going to go away, because it's a matter of extraordinary importance relating to so much of the most valuable activities going on in the Dominions forums. But I am sure the Admins are rapidly becoming fully aware of this, so I will try to stop my cursed fingers from making more words.

Bad fingers, get back in your box!

[BadCompany]

Busy times!

Either that or people just complain alot.I think this Thread should be a sticky,if you ask me.

[JimMorrison]

Jim, I had an epiphany after reading your post. Once we have all the pages completely functional on the main site and once the forums are tweaked to death (or Mindi quits, whichever comes first), we will be sending out a press release announcing our new "look".


Maybe it's just because you used the word "epiphany", or because I admire women on the internet like most people admire astronauts - but in either case, I am just glad that I found some way to help. :P

Unfortunately, Administrator praise has earned my fingers a presidential pardon, and they've been freed from their box. Woe be to the little people, the Fingers of Doom are *tap* *tap* typing for YOU! O.O

[Annette]

Maybe it's just because you used the word "epiphany", or because I admire women on the internet like most people admire astronauts - but in either case, I am just glad that I found some way to help. :P

You may call me Neil :rock:

[Zeldor]

"This forum requires that you wait 60 seconds between sending private messages." That looks like some king of stupid joke...

[llamabeast]

Presumably some kind of anti-spamming feature. Perhaps 30 seconds would be less likely to be encountered by an actual human.

[lch]

Hello, forums are back, as am I. I hope I'll stay now, being absent for quite some time.

Since you asked about opinions and criticism on the new forums, I'll try to list the first things that come to my mind. I have skim-read this thread to not repeat too much which has already been mentioned before. I did read Mindi's post in that other thread rather closely, but while the advice was to reply there, I think, this seems to be where the party is at.

First off, thanks for all the time that you have spent on migrating the forums. I do know how much work this is, especially when one has to repeatedly pull an all-nighter. I'll be listing all the issues that I can see so far, maybe I'll be able to give a little praise here and there, too, but as you should know you should never expect any praise from people, especially when you're changing things. :)

Lemme copy and paste stuff that I opened in my tabs so far. This might be out of order and repetitive.

I started to comment on the new forums, but the animated gifs are drilling a hole through my skull.
The animated gifs in the column to the left are very distracting, yeah. Especially those swirl/star effects. There were animated gifs in the top at the old forum, but they didn't seem to disrupt that much.

2. The board itself seems smaller. It's like someone took it and squished it in from the sides.
I think some other people agreed to this, and I can too. Somehow, the forums seem a little more squished together from left and right. At first I thought it's my screen resolution of 1024x768, but I heard it's fixed and everybody sees it this way. It gets a lot better if I remove the column on the left - but I expect that you don't want to do that. :) The layout somehow seems disconnected. I think it would look better if the Main Menu box and forum header would be directly under the ".com.unity" top logo, without the Gamers Front logo and ad in between. I assume you don't want to do that, too :) but maybe it would already help if the gradient in the background would go from black to blue sooner.

* My friends list was not converted and is now empty.
There were friend lists? :)

* My 'favorite threads' are likewise gone.
Ouch, I had some of those too. But since this is probably a conversion issue, I can add them again.

* I don't seem to be able to edit my own posts ...
... and similar threads, lots of people reported this I think: I'll agree that I'd consider the ability to continue to edit posts to be more important than the issues that we had with flame baiting and so on. I'm one of those people who have to edit every post he makes at least 3-5 times. It won't be needed that much for a discussion, but since people are using these forums to display and showcase their creations, they will need a way to edit old posts. The proposed "make the first post editable" might "fix" most issues, but first, it's going to be harder to implement a solution like this, and second, it doesn't fix everything, since there are threads with sections segmented into different posts and collective threads where multiple users contribute.
To be honest, now I am really glad that I'm a mod so that I'm still able to edit things... :angel

* All cross-links inside posts were not converted.
This is the biggest issue with the forum conversion in my opinion. It is extremely important to keep link consistency throughout the board. Unfortunately, it is not solvable very easily, because the site conversion renumbered the threads and posts, probably because numbers of deleted posts got reused. Thus it is not possible to write a simple "old URL => new URL" tool now, one has to work with the old forum data. You'll have to parse every post, look for links, parse their URL, look if they link to the forums, look where that thread/post will be on the new forum (the hard part) and change accordingly. I'd offer my help with this in case you get a reply from the vBulletin people and there are still issues with it.
On a related note, people were relying on the URLs for attachments to add preview pictures to their maps and mods.

- An astonishing proportion of the vertical space on a page is taken up with the names of the poster and other stuff.
Yes, this has grown considerably. In the new style of phpBB3 this is the same, the avatar image went from the left to the top of the post and the post header increased in height, so maybe it is "modern" now. I think that an interim solution would be to get rid of those experience bars on the right. Can those be disabled somehow, maybe in user preferences? It might help a little.

- Below the last post on a thread we have a Bookmarks box, which frankly I imagine will be used very rarely at best, and then a Tags box, which similarly is not a key feature.
I'd say those probably won't find much use, but I can ignore them pretty well. ;)

- In the main page of a forum, there are many fewer topics visible at once than before. This is quite serious, since only those on the front page will really get attention. In the Dominions 3 forum at least, there tend to be more topics currently in discussion than will fit on the front page.
That's another thing that I immediately noticed, too. The threshold should be increased, at least doubled, can this be done in user preferences maybe? The way it is now, the subforums and stickies take up 50% of the vertical space in the Dom3 main forums. For the old forums, threads only needed one column, now it's two columns per thread, too. I'd guess that things can get buried a lot faster now, which is a bad thing for the MP forums where it's important for active games to stay on the first page.

Secondly, I'm at a loss to understand why such a tight space restriction is needed. I imagine there are perhaps 1000 regular users of these forums, but let's say 10000...
Hahaha, you really took out the calculator. You might remember that I argued the same in the mod forums long before the work on the forums began. I'd just suggest people should take the communication to email. The forums might be a more appropriate central storage for game-related things, but email is superior over PMs in a number of ways.

Now, to the things on Mindi's list in the other thread:

COLORS: It's strange to see that I'm getting sentimental over the old color scheme, too, which I considered being "blech" when I joined. You grow to love what you're accustomed to, I guess. :) The default phpBB3 color scheme is mostly blue, too. Maybe a little lighter shade. Looks unsual, but it's not that tragic and it might be the easiest to change after all

SITE DESIGN / EDITING: see above

LINKS: Biggest and most important issue in my book.

SEARCH: The Moderator forum doesn't show up on my list of things to search for. You might want to look into that.

THANKS / REPUTATION: I usually don't really like these things on forums. Karma points can be a *****.:p

Some issues I stumbled over:

Bulleted lists like they were used in the old forums don't seem to have been converted correctly. I guess this is a known problem.

Quotes are removed when quoting something now, probably to limit and prohibit nesting of quotes. It's true that nesting quotes five levels deep is problematic, it was especially with the old forum software. But I'd like to allow at least 1-2 levels of nesting. Because you can follow a discussion more clearly, and because I can find the section that I want to quote and reply to more easily when I'm writing my post.

The forums are logging me off automatically, very fast. You can't really switch to other programs or type a longer reply without getting logged off it seems. Since you usually get a login token in some cookie, I think that this doesn't have to be this way, maybe it can be configured in user settings? And I don't want to stay logged in all the time like that "remember" function probably does. I just don't want to be logged off so soon.

The text size in the non-WYSIWYG textarea input is very tiny for me (Firefox 2.x). It is okay in WYSIWYG mode.

Now for the GOOD things that I already noticed, and I have only used a couple of mouseclicks on this new site so far:
- It looks like the attachments are better now.
- IF you get logged off while writing a post and are asked to enter your login detail again, the forum now remembers what you wrote. The old software didn't manage to do that. THANK GOD! :up:
- If you use the edit buttons like bold/italic or smileys now, it actually changes the things in place, or what you have selected. AWESOME! :up:

Guess that's it for now. :happy:

[BadCompany]

"This forum requires that you wait 60 seconds between sending private messages." That looks like some king of stupid joke...


LOL! :D

[Combat Wombat]

I am not sure what is up with all the whining about private messages and stuff when theres a million different kinds of chat clients that handle the kind of high volume and fast back and forth communication everyone seems to want (aka what forums or forum PM's are not for)

I would recommend a good IRC client or someting like ICQ if you want to send people messages while they are't online. Or shocker here I know use email :D

I love the new forums,everything about them seems to be an improvement over what we had except maybe the color but I understand reasoning behind that change. Could use some more arcade games though, maybe something I am better at ;)

[llamabeast]

Hahaha, you really took out the calculator.

:shock: What do you take me for? Certainly no calculator came near!

It was like one of those physics problems, like "estimate the mass of cheese in the UK", where you go "okay, let's say everyone in the UK has half a kilo of cheese. And let's say about half the cheese in the UK is owned by individuals, while the other half is in warehouses, shops etc. And the population of the UK is about 60 million. So... 60 million kilos aka 60 thousand tonnes". I love those things!

Edit: Can't believe having started to write out that inane example I actually followed it through! What a geek!

[BadCompany]

:shock: What do you take me for? Certainly no calculator came near!

It was like one of those physics problems, like "estimate the mass of cheese in the UK", where you go "okay, let's say everyone in the UK has half a kilo of cheese. And let's say about half the cheese in the UK is owned by individuals, while the other half is in warehouses, shops etc. And the population of the UK is about 60 million. So... 60 million kilos aka 60 thousand tonnes". I love those things!

Edit: Can't believe having started to write out that inane example I actually followed it through! What a geek!

I like those things too,but I have like 2 weeks of summer vacation left I don't want to think about that kinda stuff til september. :D

[Jazzepi]

I am not sure what is up with all the whining about private messages and stuff when theres a million different kinds of chat clients that handle the kind of high volume and fast back and forth communication everyone seems to want (aka what forums or forum PM's are not for)

I would recommend a good IRC client or someting like ICQ if you want to send people messages while they are't online. Or shocker here I know use email :D

I love the new forums,everything about them seems to be an improvement over what we had except maybe the color but I understand reasoning behind that change. Could use some more arcade games though, maybe something I am better at ;)

You must have never played dominions 3 multiplayer.

People have a need for a single layer of abstraction for communication. It's either e-mail, or the board PMs. Most people are loathe to post their e-mail addresses on public boards for fear that it'll get picked up by spam bots. So if you're an admin, you could go around and send PMs to everyone to collect their e-mail addresses, and then send another round of PMs with all the addresses and who the players are.

It's just much simpler to use the PM system for in game diplomacy. Everyone knows the username of the players in the game without revealing their e-mails to the entire world. You can setup the PMs to e-mail you when you get new ones. The PMs (well they used to before a very small cap was imposed) be a good place to store relevant history for a given game, allowing you to look back on trades, alliances, and agreements you'd setup earlier. You also have all your game e-mails stuck in one place, instead of cluttering up your POP3 client's inbox.

Personally, I think the new forums have more cons than pros, and what pros there are seem highly irrelevant like all the scoring system stuff that just eats up vertical space and clutters the boards. Given the choice, I definitely prefer the old forums.

Jazzepi

[Kristoffer O]

This thread is growing remarkably quick.

It made me wonder if there is a way to go to last read post like before. When I opened the thread I started at the beginning, so I went to the last page, and turned the pages back one at a time to find my own last post to know where to start reading again. A bit annoying.

Edit: Hmm, now I need to remember at what page I wrote this. I'll be gone for 3 days. No way I'll find the answer when I get back :)

[AgentZero]

I must say, I agree with CW. I mean, even MSN has offline message functionality now, and IRC is great for multiplayer games, because everyone involved can have a general discussion, with private messages zipping around in the background. And most IRC clients allow you to log your chats, for those of you concerned with posterity. And given how many services there are out there offering free, anonymous email, arguments about privacy are fallacious at best.

That being said, I rather like the new look. I'm using a 22-inch widescreen monitor, and I actually like the fixed width, because it makes posts much easier to read than on forums that don't use a fixed width. I remember in some graphics design class or another, the teacher telling us that the human eye will only track over a certain number of words or letters before it starts to have trouble maintaining a fix on the line. I definitely notice that on forums that stretch posts out to the full width of a maximized window, but here, everything is nice and readable.

The text in this reply box was a little small but for those of you running firefox, hit CTRL + once or twice and it'll look all nice & big. Not the best solution, but a reasonable stopgap until something better is implemented.

Now, I will admit, my first reaction to the new forum was "What the hell is this crap?! Where's my stuff? I can't find stuff!" But that is how most people react to change, and after fiddling around with it for a while, I've found most of my stuff. Still looking for some of my stuff, but that's how we learn so I don't mind. I think any time anyone has ever come up with a new way of doing something, all back through history, there have been people who didn't like it, who thought the old way was best, and that we should get rid of this strange new thing and bring back the familiar old thing. Fortunately, we've an equally long history of not listening to these protests, as evidenced by the fact that I'm sitting in front of a computer munching on a tasty grilled ham & cheese, instead of sitting in a cave gnawing on a half-cooked skunk. ;-)

[lch]

When I opened the thread I started at the beginning, so I went to the last page, and turned the pages back one at a time to find my own last post to know where to start reading again. A bit annoying.
I've always done it this way. You mean to tell me there was an alternative before? You're telling me this NOW? :eek:

[Richard]

So I think we've listened to folks, and their complaints, and the be honest I think we've already started making some changes that are resolving some of the issue people brought up.

To make this a little easier to manage I am going to suggest that going forward all suggestions for changes and such be handled the way we did this during the last forum upgrade, through PM's. Going forward please PM Mindi with any issues you see and we'll add them to the list and consider them.

Like all adults we're going to agree and disagree on how best to do things so my guess is some things folks want to see happen will happen and some won't and in the end we'll have a better forum experience.

The staff at Shrapnel Games have spent the last 6 months carefully planning this board upgrade and running literally the entire process through a test board over 10 times to ensure we minimized impact to you are customers. We've all spent many hours during this weekend, adn during the last week have gotten very little sleep, to ensure that you were impacted as little as possible. I have seen a lot of forum moves, iinlcuding previous ones we have run, and for the most part this has gone very smooth;y. In recent months some of our competitors have done similiar moves and have been without functionality for weeks. We have worked VERY hard to ensure that you guys were not impacted.

When we also planned this board move out we looked at what a lot of other forums do, and what our software did before it became broken a few years ago, and we implemented what are very liberal policies compared to most forums on the Internet. Mindi and I have started a number of communities, many of them larger than this, and have been very careful to keep those experiences in mind when planning out policies and procedures for the new board.

We've also went to long extremes to add functionality that had been requested by many of our users and to bring this board to a more modern standards when compared to other Internet communities. Some folks aren't going to like the new features, or changes, or new rules. But you know what I don't like every single one of them. Mindi doesn't lik every single one of them. Tim and Annette don't like every single one of them. But in the end we're all adults and we try to reach the best compromise possible.

So going forward please forward any functionality or bugs to Mindi via PM. As far as the site design those issues can be forwarded to Mindi but the site design was done by Tim so we'll have to run those items by him to get changed. Again some things will be addressed, some won't, but that's what happens in the real world when folks have differing opinions.

We have gotten very little sleep in the last week and we need a break. Again please PM issues to Mindi and this weekend we will look over the list and decide how to move forward. And with the new PM export feature it will make it even easier to manage :).

[llamabeast]

If you use the edit buttons like bold/italic or smileys now, it actually changes the things in place, or what you have selected. AWESOME!

Ooh, that is awesome!

It made me wonder if there is a way to go to last read post like before.

There's a down arrow appears just to the left of the thread name. That'll take you to the first unread post. Not especially obvious, but it works well.

[BadCompany]

This thread is growing remarkably quick.

It made me wonder if there is a way to go to last read post like before. When I opened the thread I started at the beginning, so I went to the last page, and turned the pages back one at a time to find my own last post to know where to start reading again. A bit annoying.

Edit: Hmm, now I need to remember at what page I wrote this. I'll be gone for 3 days. No way I'll find the answer when I get back :)

I'm a afraid that by tommorrow this thread will be at page 20 or more.I'm saying this again,this thread should be a sticky.

[Kristoffer O]

> I've always done it this way. You mean to tell me there was an alternative before? You're telling me this NOW?

That was automatic as far as I know. If you clicked on the thread name you got to your last read post. Where did you click ???

---

Another topic: The bug shortlist in the dom3 forum looks sad. I hope there is a way to make it look nice without having edi edit all the posts there. It is a very useful thread and I wouldn't want it to be lost.

[Jazzepi]

One remark.

I completely agree with what Baalz said, 100%. I found Mindi's tone aggressive, at the very least, to suggestions. To quote,

"but mostly what I'm hearing is "we decided to do it this way and its not open to discussion. Don't bug me with suggestions". "

that's exactly how I'm reading a lot of the comments. Especially when Minid puts a post up containing

"Also as previously stated, we may up the limits for PMs after things settle down on the new board; however, any of you who are hoping for a ridiculously high limit of 1000 per person will be greatly disappointed. You may think that those numbers are reasonable but I can assure you that most users were well under that number and that you are the ones in the severe minority if you need that much space"

Really, Mindi, you need to stop being so derisive of your user base for asking for functionality / making comments. There's a reason people have a lot of PMs on the forums, and one of the first things I noticed was the extremely low ceiling on the PMs. Personally I think that 300 is still far too low. 500 would be the bare minimum for me to feel like I haven't lost any functionality. I highly dislike the new site layout, which effectively does less per square inch. And taking away editing completely is really irritating from a user's standpoint. I edit posts /all the time/, especially when I hosts games, or when I'm writing a long reply.

I think an ideal solution would simply be to change the edit feature. Instead of replacing the OP with the edited post, the edit function should store the OP, then post up the edited post. This could be done each time an edit is made. Once the OP is 1 month old, and it's clear that the new post that has been edited in isn't there to cover up something inflammatory, automatically delete it. This would keep your overhead low, but allow you to see an edit by edit history of the posts, basically creating a paper trail to catch trolls and mediate disputes while maintaining the original functionality of the forums.

Jazzepi

[Kristoffer O]

> There's a down arrow appears just to the left of the thread name. That'll take you to the first unread post. Not especially obvious, but it works well.

Nice. That is a 'thank you' sir! :)

Edit: no such luck. Seems I can't thank anyone anymore. My reputation might be too low. I'd better quaff a blessed raise level potion and earn some experience. My forum skills are limited.

[lch]

That was automatic as far as I know. If you clicked on the thread name you got to your last read post. Where did you click ???
There was a tiny icon next to the users name who did the last post. You had to click the icon, NOT the user's name like you would do it most commonly in other forum software, because that would have taken you to his profile page. Then you'd get to the last post in the thread. From there on, I'd backtrack to the last post that I read like salmon in the river.

[lch]

I'm a afraid that by tommorrow this thread will be at page 20 or more.I'm saying this again,this thread should be a sticky.
If it's being replied to as much as it is now, it doesn't need to be stickied. As if something in the Shrapnel general forums could possibly go out of sight in under half a year...

[llamabeast]

Yeah, I actually didn't know you could go straight to the first new post in the old forum either. Hmm. No way of checking now!

[BadCompany]

One remark.

I completely agree with what Baalz said, 100%. I found Mindi's tone aggressive, at the very least, to suggestions. To quote,

"but mostly what I'm hearing is "we decided to do it this way and its not open to discussion. Don't bug me with suggestions". "

that's exactly how I'm reading a lot of the comments. Especially when Minid puts a post up containing

"Also as previously stated, we may up the limits for PMs after things settle down on the new board; however, any of you who are hoping for a ridiculously high limit of 1000 per person will be greatly disappointed. You may think that those numbers are reasonable but I can assure you that most users were well under that number and that you are the ones in the severe minority if you need that much space"

Really, Mindi, you need to stop being so derisive of your user base for asking for functionality / making comments. There's a reason people have a lot of PMs on the forums, and one of the first things I noticed was the extremely low ceiling on the PMs. Personally I think that 300 is still far too low. 500 would be the bare minimum for me to feel like I haven't lost any functionality. I highly dislike the new site layout, which effectively does less per square inch. And taking away editing completely is really irritating from a user's standpoint. I edit posts /all the time/, especially when I hosts games, or when I'm writing a long reply.

I think an ideal solution would simply be to change the edit feature. Instead of replacing the OP with the edited post, the edit function should store the OP, then post up the edited post. This could be done each time an edit is made. Once the OP is 1 month old, and it's clear that the new post that has been edited in isn't there to cover up something inflammatory, automatically delete it. This would keep your overhead low, but allow you to see an edit by edit history of the posts, basically creating a paper trail to catch trolls and mediate disputes while maintaining the original functionality of the forums.

Jazzepi

<Edited by Annette> I would be pretty mad too if I had anser all these complaints that are being repeated over and over again(why do you think this thread is over 10 pages long).All you did was whine not even giving noone a chance to make some corrections on the boards.Its alot of work.

This PM limit issue reminds me of the civilization revolution turn limit issue everyone was complaining about over at their forums,LOL.

[Suicide Junkie]

...
That being said, I rather like the new look. I'm using a 22-inch widescreen monitor, and I actually like the fixed width, because it makes posts much easier to read than on forums that don't use a fixed width. I remember in some graphics design class or another, the teacher telling us that the human eye will only track over a certain number of words or letters before it starts to have trouble maintaining a fix on the line. I definitely notice that on forums that stretch posts out to the full width of a maximized window, but here, everything is nice and readable.This is what I don't get.

Why do so many people (such as my parents) insist on maximizing everything on their computer? Just size the window to your own preferences, and you'll get text just as wide as you like it. As a bonus, you'll be able to glance over at the other windows; your IRC client, that download progress bar, whatever. If you leave the edges of all your other windows peeking out, you can switch to them quite easily.

Windows are resizable for a reason :D

[Zeldor]

Llamabeast, you should behave well now, I have found "Remove your thanks" option!

[Annette]

Llamabeast, you should behave well now, I have found "Remove your thanks" option!

LOL! thanks for the laugh!

[JimMorrison]

Richard, you can run this through a test board 10 times, it has nothing to do with the human aspect. No one is disparaging your technical prowess, we are just feeling as if our needs are being disregarded, for the aspirations of others.

Requesting that this discussion be terminated, and moved to a more formal and totally invisible complaint system, is a symptom of that very issue. We are discussing things here, and the whole thing has remained entirely civil, so I see no reason to squash the thread. If you're afraid that Mindi and Annette will simply pay too much attention to this thread, maybe that is so. They are tremendously patient with us, and I don't think there is enough appreciation that we can possibly lavish on them for not dropping PMs at us that say "quitcher*****in". :P


Regarding suggestions that game specific discussion be taken off site - I'm not sure I understand how this is in any way optimal for a PBEM game. IRC would be the medium of choice if we were playing for extended periods all together. Otherwise, due to the nature of the gameplay, and the nature of all of the scheming and plotting that is involved in a game of Dominions that takes 2-3 months to play through, the forum PM system is the ideal format - especially now with the ability to forward PMs to others.

The Shrapnel forums have always been the needle in the haystack. Suggesting that we go set up a special email to use only with Dominions, that we will have to manage separately for privacy and continuity concerns - just because the PM limits are similar to those used by other successful forums - is just plain ludicrous.

I think most people posting in this thread are displaying their ability to be rational and agreeable. We are not railing against change. We are feeling somewhat deprived and oppressed. The line between change and removal is not fine, nor is it mutable. Useful, appreciated, and integral portions of this forum no longer exist. Relating this to inventions and discoveries that universally enhance quality of life - could be construed as misleading at best.


<3

[Jazzepi]

Jim, I can always count on you to spend far more time then me to say exactly what I want to say in a more eloquent fashion.

I'm glad you have nothing better to do with your time ;)

Jazzepi

[lch]

Please do remove the "bad words" filter, it's silly. Or at least over-sensitive. We have moderation, I don't think we need it.

[Annette]

Richard, you can run this through a test board 10 times, it has nothing to do with the human aspect. No one is disparaging your technical prowess, we are just feeling as if our needs are being disregarded, for the aspirations of others.

Requesting that this discussion be terminated, and moved to a more formal and totally invisible complaint system, is a symptom of that very issue. We are discussing things here, and the whole thing has remained entirely civil, so I see no reason to squash the thread. If you're afraid that Mindi and Annette will simply pay too much attention to this thread, maybe that is so. They are tremendously patient with us, and I don't think there is enough appreciation that we can possibly lavish on them for not dropping PMs at us that say "quitcher*****in". :P


Regarding suggestions that game specific discussion be taken off site - I'm not sure I understand how this is in any way optimal for a PBEM game. IRC would be the medium of choice if we were playing for extended periods all together. Otherwise, due to the nature of the gameplay, and the nature of all of the scheming and plotting that is involved in a game of Dominions that takes 2-3 months to play through, the forum PM system is the ideal format - especially now with the ability to forward PMs to others.

The Shrapnel forums have always been the needle in the haystack. Suggesting that we go set up a special email to use only with Dominions, that we will have to manage separately for privacy and continuity concerns - just because the PM limits are similar to those used by other successful forums - is just plain ludicrous.

I think most people posting in this thread are displaying their ability to be rational and agreeable. We are not railing against change. We are feeling somewhat deprived and oppressed. The line between change and removal is not fine, nor is it mutable. Useful, appreciated, and integral portions of this forum no longer exist. Relating this to inventions and discoveries that universally enhance quality of life - could be construed as misleading at best.


<3

I just got angry for the first time today. We have asked repeatedly that specific issues be posted in a specific thread. It's not efficient for Mindi, Richard, Tim and myself to hunt around various threads in various forums to identify problems and requests. As Ich said, the party seems to be here, so we're here. But we're also in the thread we asked to be the official spot. We're also answering pm's, and it goes on and on. We're spending a great deal of time here talking in circles about a handful of issues, when that time could/should be spent working on the known problems.

Richard has asked that a pm be sent to Mindi if you have a specific issue which needs to be resolved or a specific complaint. This is to help us be able to actually address these issues in a timely, consistent manner. You are welcome to continue this discussion, assuming it remains civilized, for as long as you like. We're saying, we need to keep on task. You are not being censored, and frankly I'm offended by the suggestion that you are.

You may no longer call me Neil:(

[Richard]

Richard, you can run this through a test board 10 times, it has nothing to do with the human aspect. No one is disparaging your technical prowess, we are just feeling as if our needs are being disregarded, for the aspirations of others.

Requesting that this discussion be terminated, and moved to a more formal and totally invisible complaint system, is a symptom of that very issue. We are discussing things here, and the whole thing has remained entirely civil, so I see no reason to squash the thread. If you're afraid that Mindi and Annette will simply pay too much attention to this thread, maybe that is so. They are tremendously patient with us, and I don't think there is enough appreciation that we can possibly lavish on them for not dropping PMs at us that say "quitcher*****in". :P


Regarding suggestions that game specific discussion be taken off site - I'm not sure I understand how this is in any way optimal for a PBEM game. IRC would be the medium of choice if we were playing for extended periods all together. Otherwise, due to the nature of the gameplay, and the nature of all of the scheming and plotting that is involved in a game of Dominions that takes 2-3 months to play through, the forum PM system is the ideal format - especially now with the ability to forward PMs to others.

The Shrapnel forums have always been the needle in the haystack. Suggesting that we go set up a special email to use only with Dominions, that we will have to manage separately for privacy and continuity concerns - just because the PM limits are similar to those used by other successful forums - is just plain ludicrous.

I think most people posting in this thread are displaying their ability to be rational and agreeable. We are not railing against change. We are feeling somewhat deprived and oppressed. The line between change and removal is not fine, nor is it mutable. Useful, appreciated, and integral portions of this forum no longer exist. Relating this to inventions and discoveries that universally enhance quality of life - could be construed as misleading at best.


<3

My point here is that it's much easier to manage a list of issues through the PM system (where we can list out individual issues) then in the forum.

So I guess it's this simple. You can discuss things here but the only way we'll add things to the list is via PM.

So if you want to see something addressed, PM Mindi.

[Combat Wombat]

Regarding suggestions that game specific discussion be taken off site - I'm not sure I understand how this is in any way optimal for a PBEM game. IRC would be the medium of choice if we were playing for extended periods all together. Otherwise, due to the nature of the gameplay, and the nature of all of the scheming and plotting that is involved in a game of Dominions that takes 2-3 months to play through, the forum PM system is the ideal format - especially now with the ability to forward PMs to others.


I have had Space Empires 4 games that have literally lasted years with much schemeing and plotting and that didn't require the abuse of shrpanel forums PM system. I think you guys are smart enough to work something out.

[BadCompany]

Jim,you've done it this time. :P

[Annette]

Please do remove the "bad words" filter, it's silly. Or at least over-sensitive. We have moderation, I don't think we need it.

That hasn't really changed from the "old" boards. I think a few variations were added, but it's pretty much an old feature. I'd post what it blocks, but it won't let me :p Trust me, it's words no one needs to use here for any reason whatsoever.

[Suicide Junkie]

One really nice feature is the fact that we can see and manage all of our uploaded files.
I've got some ancient stuff in there that I had completely forgotten about!

[Tim Brooks]

Trust me, it's words no one needs to use here for any reason whatsoever.


I NEED to use them all the time...

[lch]

Trust me, it's words no one needs to use here for any reason whatsoever.
Lemme test it. What if I wanted to *****? If I'd be *****ing, would anybody here mind? The filter, at least?

Yeah, now you can all start and try guessing...

[Richard]

One really nice feature is the fact that we can see and manage all of our uploaded files.
I've got some ancient stuff in there that I had completely forgotten about!

Yeah I had wanted to get the old stuff from the previous board too but it wasn't possible.

[BadCompany]

Lemme test it. What if I wanted to *****? If I'd be *****ing, would anybody here mind? The filter, at least?

Yeah, now you can all start and try guessing...

Let me write something:

****,damn,****

Edit:there is a filter for all the foul words except damn.DAMN,there's a filter. :P

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Password.

Just checking for silly filter syndrome.

[Richard]

Password.

Just checking.

Don't you have a cantina thread to be posting in :)

:angel

[Annette]

Let me write something:

****,damn,****

Edit:there is a filter for all the foul words except damn.DAMN,there's a filter. :P
Yeah, damn is allowed. Just about anything you would hear on network television or radio is allowed. Most of the stuff has to do with female anatomy, surprise, surprise. Hence, Tim's frustration noted above. Again, this is not new. We had this filter on the "old" board.

[Annette]

Don't you have a cantina thread to be posting in :)

:angel

Narf,

Don't mind Richard. I'm glad you're here.

[BadCompany]

Lets try:

***** and ****

Yep,everything except damn.

[AgentZero]

This is what I don't get.

Why do so many people (such as my parents) insist on maximizing everything on their computer? <snip>

Ostensibly because I'm one of those dicks with dual monitors, so I can stick IRC, IM, et al on the other monitor and use the whole big one for whatever I happen to be looking at. In all honesty though, Firefox is the only thing I keep maximized, because since there's no universal standard for the width of webpages, some look better wider, others narrower, and rather than resize the window every time I hop to a different page, I just leave it as big as it'll get and hope that web designers make the best use of the space. Most do, some don't, but it works for me.

But that's neither here nor there. I like the new site, even if I'm still learning to use it, and aside from itsy bitsy reply box text, and all the quotation marks in old posts being replaced with funny question mark graphics, I'm quite happy with it.

[JimMorrison]

I have had Space Empires 4 games that have literally lasted years with much schemeing and plotting and that didn't require the abuse of shrpanel forums PM system. I think you guys are smart enough to work something out.

This is silly, I don't think anyone here was championing the "abuse" of anything. The people who this change hurts, were by and large "using" the system to great effect - and there were definitely more people who used the system as intended, than the few who just let every message pile up ad infinitum.


Annette - Richard's tone was very authoritarian. You can try to separate intent from action, but whether censorship was intended to be conveyed - that is how it was received. In all of my time online, regardless of intent, this is what requests to handle a public issue "in private" actually result in. Rarely does the public see productive results occur. More often, the issue is swept under the rug, and then either forgotten by people who are in fact now oppressed (take that term with a grain of salt, but it is what it is), or months later someone says "hey, whatever came of all of that?", to which I've then seen Admins clamp down and squash that, stating that it had been requested to be handled privately - so leave it alone.

You can disagree about what constitutes censorship, and what constitutes oppression - and try to remove that stigma from your own actions, but it's all just semantics at that point.


I'm not trying to cause problems - and I sincerely apologize if my posts in this thread have caused additional problems simply for being in this thread, rather than in another thread. For what it's worth, a couple of hours ago I looked for that other thread, and I must be blind or something, but it didn't jump out at me to tell me it even existed, so I continued posting my replies in this one.

This whole thing is getting kind of emotional, so if I suggest that in this case that locking this thread and placing a link to the other thread may have been appropriate - I'll probably get nailed for telling people how to do their job. I guess I am just as easy to hate as I am easy to love - but I knew that already.

<3

[JimMorrison]

I'm one of those dicks with dual monitors


Somehow I doubt that YOUR name is Richard. :P

I humbly request that I be able to say bee itch, if someone can call themselves a dick. ;)

[JimMorrison]

As Ich said, the party seems to be here, so we're here. But we're also in the thread we asked to be the official spot.


Just looked again after posting. This "official spot" is nowhere to be found. I would assume that it would be in this General Forum, since it deals with the same content as this thread, which was moved here. However, no such luck. So people are getting pissed at me for posting in the only visible place for such discussion. I still have these unclaimed vouchers for footrubs, and I am not afraid to pass them out.

:rolleyes:

[Gandalf Parker]

I think that Shrapnel has a desire for these forums to be public friendly. There are many times that I have asked someone to take my conversation private so that I can speak abit more openly than I would otherwise.

[lch]

Just looked again after posting. This "official spot" is nowhere to be found. I would assume that it would be in this General Forum, since it deals with the same content as this thread, which was moved here. However, no such luck.
The "PLEASE READ RE: Site Conversion" sticky in the Shrapnel general forums can be replied to. That's the "official" place.

[JimMorrison]

The "PLEASE READ RE: Site Conversion" sticky in the Shrapnel general forums can be replied to. That's the "official" place.


I was afraid someone might say that. That my head was being bitten off because of the need to "jump back and forth replying to both threads", when the other thread has 9 entire posts in it.

I am not overreacting. I'm not being rude or belligerent. I am voicing opinions, which seem to be largely agreed with. These posts could be made in that other thread, but it really does seem to be more used so far for bug response. These aren't software malfunctions, they're just human issues.


And Gandalf, I'm not saying that all requests to take a discussion private are bad. When they are largely an argument/debate/whatever between 2 people, then sometimes it's best done in private. When it's a matter of "public order", then requests to take it private are generally just the easy way out to squelch dissent. I don't think it's strange to want to use a "forum" as a venue for public discussion.

Now, if the Admins wish to openly state that they no longer want the format or regulation of the forum to be discussed publicly at all - well, again, I do not think that solves any problems, not in the long term.

[vfb]

Somehow I doubt that YOUR name is Richard. :P

I humbly request that I be able to say bee itch, if someone can call themselves a dick. ;)

Can we please have the word 'B!tch' back? Otherwise we can't discuss Dominions unit number 401, among other legitimate uses. Case in point:


Don't try this with a 15-hp ***** queen, something unlucky is bound to happen.

[HoneyBadger]

At what point in the old forum setups were we having problems with Tourettes syndrome?

It's never the words we use, it's always the manner in which they're used that's harmful or beneful.

[Dedas]

This new censorship (among other things) is extremely silly. If you at Shrapnelgames do not take us seriously, why on earth should we? This makes me angry.

[llamabeast]

Jim man, probably best to chill for a bit. Shrapnel do care what we think, that has been made clear, and they're fixing things and making changes rapidly. The point was just that this thread is in danger of going round in ever-more-rabid circles, which does nothing but distract them from trying to make fixes. There probably isn't any point in continuing to discuss the forum changes until a few more days have passed and we can actually see where Shrapnel were heading. Sending them a PM with any specific issues is just a convenient way to make sure everything is on their list.

I suggest bringing up any remaining worries in a week or so, and in the meantime we can just go and hang out in the Dominions forum.

I am pleased to wake up this morning and find that the small-text-reply-box issue is fixed. I can read what I'm typing again!

Certainly though, it will be sad to no longer be allowed to talk about the ***** queen, that staple of any strategy discussion. :(

[Ninave]

Umm, we've posted for 3 weeks that the new avatar size is 80x80m and that no one CAN upload bigger avatars, so this is not an issue.

There is this thin blue box around the avatar that is of the maximum height (80) and avatar-width (Mozilla 3.0.1). It messes up the avatars that have transparent backgounds to blend in to forum and I think it looks silly with normal avatars as well. I would really like to see it gone (even tough my small pink blob seems quite funny bumping in to lines and turning back again and again).

Also the animated clapping hands... Urgh. Still there.

[lch]

Default font size in non-WYSIWYG edit boxes is better now! :up:

[BadCompany]

Somehow I doubt that YOUR name is Richard. :P

I humbly request that I be able to say bee itch, if someone can call themselves a dick. ;)

LOL! :D

[JimMorrison]

There probably isn't any point in continuing to discuss the forum changes until a few more days have passed and we can actually see where Shrapnel were heading.

I am pleased to wake up this morning and find that the small-text-reply-box issue is fixed. I can read what I'm typing again!


Llamas and Lizards can coexist peacefully! :D

I am a reasonable man, and I see the merit in giving the exhausted Shrapnel personnel some much needed rest. <3

[lch]

I was afraid someone might say that. That my head was being bitten off because of the need to "jump back and forth replying to both threads", when the other thread has 9 entire posts in it.
Now that I had the time to read through the entire thread I can tell you that it's even being linked to in the second page of this thread ;) but you're right that this discussion thread seems to have taken over that role and the official thread is more like just an announcement.

[Mindi]

In our hurry to get the forums back up and running, to in turn have as minimal impact on users as possible, we failed to set up the proper system for this sort of conversion before going live. I am now correcting that. There will be four distinct official threads in this forum. One for bugs only (read: broken functionality), one for questions on how to use functionality, one for requests for future additions to the forums and one for complaints/concerns on existing functionality/site design/whatever is on your mind. Comments that are made in inappropriate threads will be removed.

:close: