Endgame Wish Strategy

[DonCorazon]

Reading the Kingmaker thread discussing the end of Perpetuality got me to thinking - I have yet to get to the point in an MP game where I was capable of using Wishing as an avenue to victory but I'd be curious to hear how this typically plays out.

It sounds like the idea is to keep wishing for gems and then use those gems to kit out more and more SCs? How many gems do you get with a Wish?

What are the other commonly Wished for things? I have seen the long list of possible wishes but am more interested in what people actually/commonly wish for in competitive MP games. Thanks.

[Zeldor]

175 gems from Wish, including 25 astral, so 150 gems for 75S.

People wish for some artifacts [Chalice, Sceptre mostly, also Gate stone as it's cheaper to wish than forge] and SC chassises [mostly Seraphy].

I had 2 wishers in EpikBattel and 90% of the time they wished for gems which were transformed into hordes of SCs [I had about 200-300S gems a turn there with clams and Nexus].

[konming]

I could hardly found uses for gems like F, A, E. What do you use those wished gems in end game?

[Micah]

E gems are always excellent, I don't see your problem there. A can be used for cloud trapeze fuel and F for flames form the sky if needed, but you can always just alchemize them back to S if you've got too many.

[Zeldor]

E for items mostly [you can never have too much], some people also make GoRed Gargoyles as late-game thugs.

F for artillery spells, you can burn even 500 gems in one turn on artillery barrage on 1 domed VP province.

A is like Micah said.

[DonCorazon]

I have many uses for E gems in late game: endgame troops (Mechanical Men / Living Statues), remote assassination (Living Earth), quick sieges (Crumble), and gear (Earth Boots, Hammers, Marble Armor mainly).

F and W mainly for remote attack spells as was mentioned

A mostly for air boosters as I like to be able to have many casters capable of busting out some Fog Warriors. Also Seeking Arrows are quite amusing. :)

[Nikelaos]

the manual mentions the ability to wish for 'Armageddon' that sounds pretty end gameish although i have never seen it in use, can anyone state the exact effects of Armageddon?

[ano]

the manual mentions the ability to wish for 'Armageddon' that sounds pretty end gameish although i have never seen it in use, can anyone state the exact effects of Armageddon?
Look here (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com//showthread.php?t=33729) for the full list of wishable things.

[Nikelaos]

oh i see, 1 third of all units and population die, though it also affects you , i guess you could make an endgame strtegy from it.

[Meglobob]

Wish gems, wish Seraph, repeat until game has been won.

My experience is wishing very, very rarely wins games because by the time you can wish, you or someone else as already won.

Obviously Megagames are an exception to that rule, being so big.

[Executor]

Well I'm not in a megagame and there are still 4 strong players left although it is turn 65, and any of us could win.
And I guess it's best to wish for gems if you have nexus in play already for even more gems, and if you happen to have an enchantment bonus above all that It'd be foolish not to wish for gems.
Any suggestions for MA C'tis endgame? ( since they can't wish for seraph and such because of dominion )

[HoneyBadger]

If Seraphs were made unwish-for-able like their Gath cousins, half the end-game strategies people use would probably collapse :)

Here's a wish for you: I wish that we had about a dozen or so units that you could *only* get by Wishing for them, that made really good SC chassis. That way, you'd see more Wish variety at the end-game.

This might even be possible for us to Mod in...

[Wrana]

Prince of Death? Dracolich?
By the way, I'm also currently at wishing stage in one game without clear winner - though it was a newby game initially so it may be that we are still not so competent in slaughter as to end game earlier...

[K]

The only viable Wishes that I've seen are wishes for Gems or blood slaves and/or commanders to cast game ending spells like Utterdark or Astral Corruption.

Wishing for SCs is just a product of people not knowing how to end the game.

[HoneyBadger]

Game ending spells aren't very much fun, even for the person casting them...Crushing your enemies, seeing them flee before you, hearing the laments of their women...you just can't Wish for that.

[Wrana]

I certainly can! :) A pity the game engine just doesn't recognize them... ;)
More seriously, it's often quite boring to slowly crush an opposition when you are already superior. End-game spells are a way around this problem. Victory points are another one.
Real pity is that, baring some national-specific summons, there are few viable alternatives to Tartarians or Wished Seraphs. At least I haven't heard about such... ;)

[HoneyBadger]

I wouldn't mind it if there were some 15th level 'research win' game ender, but it seems to me that it shouldn't come about at the same level where you're still getting normal spells.

[Nikelaos]

thats true wrana, i know it's national specific but i am guessing it is still possible to get via wish, there is azazel the grigori(hinnom national summon)

with some epic magic skill, the greatest weapon in the entire game(or that i have seen anyway) and great stats among other things, he makes the perfect SC chassis.

[HoneyBadger]

Grigori aren't Wishable, fortunately.

[Nikelaos]

well can't say it shouldn't be that way, they are heavily over powered and i think the only balancer is their massive cost in blood slaves, having a way to avoid that would destroy any reason to actually go after the actual spell

[Micah]

177 slaves < 120 gems.

[DonCorazon]

But you can wish a unique SC from another player. I think that is what Ironhawk did to Cleveland's Lord of Banefires in one MP game I was in. Still waiting for confirmation from the secretive Ironhawk though... :)

That seems to be a pretty good use of a wish assuming you can subdue (enslave/charm) the SC as you not only get an SC, but cause your enemy to lose one, plus you get all the gear.

[konming]

I do not see grigori as powerful as seraph.

[Rytek]

I remember reading on the multiplay forums about an entrenched LA Ryleh player wishing for Armegedon over and over again. I think it took all of the other players ganging up to stop her. But by the time she was done almost all population was gone.

[Zeldor]

Don:

I think that it just moves that unique unit where wish caster is and there is a fight.

[DonCorazon]

Z: exactly..if you are prepared to charm/enslave it would seem to be a nice use of a wish. I suppose if nothing else, you will have killed an SC and possibly won some gear, which to me is more of a net positive than obtaining a naked SC.

And to the point of people wanting to wish for Azazel the grigori - that might be one way to get him if he is already in the game.

[konming]

No. The name is Grigori, you cannot wish for "Azazel the Grigori".

[Loren]

I remember reading on the multiplay forums about an entrenched LA Ryleh player wishing for Armegedon over and over again. I think it took all of the other players ganging up to stop her. But by the time she was done almost all population was gone.

How did she protect her wish-caster?

[Rytek]

I dunno. I was'nt in the game. But the thread is great reading. The other players had some serious hatred built up for the r'leh player. It was one of the games started by Zacharai.

[Poopsi]

I remember reading on the multiplay forums about an entrenched LA Ryleh player wishing for Armegedon over and over again. I think it took all of the other players ganging up to stop her. But by the time she was done almost all population was gone.

THAT IS INCREDIBLY COOL

Somehow, it fits R'lyeh's theme to have the world ravaged by natural disasters as the ancient god awakes from it´s aeon´s old prison, in an revelrie of destruction and freedom...

[Redfrog]

I dunno. I was'nt in the game. But the thread is great reading. The other players had some serious hatred built up for the r'leh player. It was one of the games started by Zacharai.

Here is that Armageddon game:
Scorned lands (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35121)

[HoneyBadger]

Wow. I always wondered how that game ended up... I was involved in that for about 15 turns as Niefelheim. I'm glad it came to an epic (epically messed up, anyway) ending.

That makes my day!

[TwoBits]

Just read all 21 pages of that - obviously frustrating for many players, but it sounded very interesting to me. A very unique situation. How to play out a game where everyone has a destroyed economy (with no LA Ermor to take advantage of it).

I wish the participants had played it out to the bitter end - there might have been a lot of lessons learned about how to operate in such a poisoned environment, surviving on gems alone, etc.. You'd think someone who had a lot of gold/silver/gem mine magic sites might have been able to parlay that into some kind of victory...

[Ironhawk]

But you can wish a unique SC from another player. I think that is what Ironhawk did to Cleveland's Lord of Banefires in one MP game I was in. Still waiting for confirmation from the secretive Ironhawk though... :)

Yeah that was me. I dont have any qualms with releasing that info now that the game was over. You can wish for any unique SC in play and it will be transported to the casters location. This is HUGELY powerful weapon when you reach the endgame where a player might spend 40gems on gear and 30gems on an SC chasis (or more!). Not only do you deny them that huge investment, but if you are ready, you can charm/enslave the SC yourself making back the majority of the cost of the Wish.

Big Caveat:
There is a bug where the transportation that the Wish does is effected by domes. So if your Wish caster is covered by a dome, which is pretty much assured in the late game, then the SC will "bounce" away to another province. Really irritating.

[Zeldor]

Bounce where?

[Ironhawk]

I dont think its determinate. Some random province. Probably friendly? Its the same as any failed teleport into a dome, I think.

[ano]

If teleport is failed, commander stays home - I'm absolutely sure about this.

[Ironhawk]

I disagree ano. With the above example in mind, I've even seen other times when teleport and mass-teleport spells have bounced.

[ano]

In the recent game (Highlander) as R'lyeh I teleported about 20 mages and a lot of army to the Utgard capital which was protected by astral and air domes. I was very lucky to kick off an air dome very fast but still most of my mages stayed home while others smashed the defense. So, once again, I am absolutely sure about it.
If you're absolutely sure about the opposite then the only possible explanation I can see is that that capital was surrounded by enemy provinces.