You can't complain that this game is costly

[Beorne]

Sometimes I complained for the resolution of big old bugs or for the introduction of some additional features, is 4 yrs I play almost only Dom and the support is never enough.

But you can't say (like often happens) this game is costly.
I bought EUIII. Very good game, veru few bigs, great support. But to complete the game you need the two expansions. You will then have a very good complete game for about 70-80 €.
I bought GalCivII. Very good game (the guys at Paradox rocks). But You will need the two expasions to complete it.
My friend bought CivIV. The same.
And don't tell me after some time the price will drop, after 3 yrs it will published GAlCivIII, EUIV, anf CivV. And the wheel of time will go around.
Somewhere a video game marketing specialist had this "three for one" great idea, like dropping 1 cent to have the 9.99 effect, but for me is like cheating.

[Gandalf Parker]

I agree with most of that. For a game like this one, the support will never be enough. As amazing as it is, people will always come up with things they want "fixed" or changed.

Definetly not costly. I get far more for my money than any other game I remember.

I suppose that Shrapnel could package 2 of their other games with it, but as you say it would feel like cheating if thats what it takes to get some people to buy it. As for the 9.99 thing studies have shown that people often make decisions based on even amounts. As long as $9.99 sells so much better than $10 then we will see it being done.

Gandalf Parker

[Sombre]

Yes I can. It's far too costly. I can't get any of my gamer friends to buy it and play MP with me, which is something we do a lot with other games. One of us really loves a game, so the rest of us buy copies so we can play it together online. This happens all the time. Console games, PC games,....

There's just no chance of that happening with Dom3.

Although I'm a huge fan of dom3 I'm not going into some kind of nutty denial about the price. People largely expect prices to drop and plenty of people just don't buy games at full price. It isn't going to happen with Dom3 and as a result these people won't be buying dom3.

Note I'm not trying to say what I think the price /should/ be. That's none of my business. Shrapnel do what works for them and know more about sales figures and costs and all that crap than I do. But arguing dom3 isn't costly is daft. Just compare it with similar games that have actually had their price lowered. Sure you can say 'Ah but dom3 is better'. And I'm sure you think that's true. But objectively speaking, if you want value for money (in terms of say,.. PC games) Dom3 isn't a game I'd suggest buying. I'd avise people to buy various similar, cheaper games. Some of which have even more user made content and more active communities.

But that's just me.

[Aezeal]

I'm not with you Sombre.

Yes the price is high bu saying teh value for money ratio (or whatever you should call it) isn't good is ridiculous, especially from you. Considering the time you must spend on these forum and the mods you must like the game and I bet that there aren't much games you bought that have kept you busy so many hours (in price/hours this MUST be one of the top 10 games for you) so the value for money is good.

considering all this I think it's strange you wouldn't recommend buying the game to others.

[Tifone]

Pardon my lol, messieurs. ^^ Another thread about the game price :D

Well the game isn't surely cheap. But the money are spent for wonderful quality, longevity, a 300 pages manual, years long devs support. So for me it's more than ok, it's great.

Peace ^^

PS. Oh I was forgetting. Being part of a great community ;)

[Sombre]

I'm not with you Sombre.

Yes the price is high bu saying teh value for money ratio (or whatever you should call it) isn't good is ridiculous, especially from you. Considering the time you must spend on these forum and the mods you must like the game and I bet that there aren't much games you bought that have kept you busy so many hours (in price/hours this MUST be one of the top 10 games for you) so the value for money is good.

considering all this I think it's strange you wouldn't recommend buying the game to others.

In a straight cost and time ratio it would lose by default to all the free games I've played. So that's not a sensible way of measuring the value for money.

Also my enthusiasm for dom3 isn't particularly rational and I'm aware of this. To me my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world. Is she really? Should I be trying to convince oters of this? Of course not. It's the same with dominions. It's one of my favourite games, but objectively speaking it isn't particularly good value for money. I'd say Age of Wonders for example, which can be picked up for virtually nothing, is far better value for money. As are hundreds of other games which are incredibly good, but are now at bargain basement prices.

[Beorne]

To Sombre:
Al the other games I cited cost more than Dom3 if you take them complete (with the expansions) and they drop the price when there is a new version out, or when they can bundle it with the expansion (so the price remains almost the same) so it is a fake price lowering. I have observed that this is true for all the good strategic games (I don't play rt or fps). If I want to play a very good civ game I play freeciv, if I buy it I want the last polished and supported version (and for me the "one to last" version with dropped price has almost no value).
I agree with you that the community is not that big and active considering the potential of the game. The publisher could do something to encourage the community (and the modding and bug tracking), that for now is left to the back of you half dozen willing guys. A configured cms on a good domain name (like the mod site of paradox or the site of seV) could resolve almost all the organizing community issues of Dom.

[Tifone]

C'mon man, you know that indie developers have different businness models than the big companies ^^

And about free games, oh c'mon. ^^ Even if a free game gives you 1 out of a scale of maximum 10000 of fun factor, of course it's great compared to anything that costs money, becauses you didn't spend a penny for that. ^^ To me Dom3 is great value for money. I liked Age of Wonders very much, but there is no comparison with Dom3 to me ;)

[Sombre]

C'mon man, you know that indie developers have different businness models than the big companies ^^

And about free games, oh c'mon. ^^ Even if a free game gives you 1 out of a scale of maximum 10000 of fun factor, of course it's great compared to anything that costs money, becauses you didn't spend a penny for that. ^^ To me Dom3 is great value for money. I liked Age of Wonders very much, but there is no comparison with Dom3 to me ;)

I don't care if they're indie developers or giant megacorps pumping out the latest in a series. It has absolutely no bearing on the value for money.

Is Dom3 20 or so times better than AoW? Because I've seen AoW for two quid down a local market. For me, no. Of course that isn't a sensible way of deciding what to buy, because you have limited time and you want to spend that time having as much fun as possible. So a game that's only slightly better than another but costs hugely more could be a much better buy for you.

But in the case of dom3 I feel there are plenty better, cheaper games. These I would advise people on a budget to buy before Dom3. In fact I would never EVER advise someone looking for real value for money to buy dom3. It's just too expensive.

-shrug- Sorry if you don't like what you're hearing. I believe this thread was made for people to express their opinions.

[Edi]

For a game like this one, the support will never be enough. As amazing as it is, people will always come up with things they want "fixed" or changed.
I suppose that depends a bit on how you define support. Personally, I have found the support for the game exceptional, but that may be a function of my perspective as the person who maintains the bug shortlist and the modding wishlist.

The black section of the shortlist may still look pretty daunting, but compared to what (and what severity) has been fixed, there's not a lot left and relatively little of it is serious. The more recent slew of things we have gotten with the new modding stuff is humbling. So much more has been unlocked that enables mods to be much better than they used to be. The number of mods that have been updated to take advantage of that in the past couple of weeks is staggering.

That's not even going into all the other brand new content in the patches, such as 9 new nations to date. We may or may not get new nations with new patches. We may or may not get some other new mechanics such as new terrain types. We will probably get some more modding commands, depending on how easy they are to do and how enthusiastic Illwinter is about them.

Outside of this, realistically the only other things left are broadly two categories:

1) Network side for automating server setup and game setup and management somewhat

2) Altering, tweaking and balancing existing things.

Of these, number 2 is an endless bone of contention, because you can never satisfy everyone. Or necessarily even the majority. Some people will be ecstatic if certain things are altered, some will cry nerf an others will go meh, no matter what is done. This is the only place where the argument that support is never enough gets any traction and there it is by definition true, since there is never an end to wishes, desires and demands from players. And I'm not talking about just the people registered here at Shrapnel Games.

At the end, it boils down to what kind of support expectations are reasonable and what has been done, and in this regard I think Dominions 3 has been one of the best supported games I have ever seen. Best supported by far. On top of that, the value for money you get out of it in terms of replayability and the price per hour of gaming wrt initial cost of purchase is pretty eye-opening.

With that combo, Dominions 3 is hard to beat. Very hard.

Of course, this post expresses my opinion and is NOT some pronouncement of The One & Only Truth from on high. Your experience and mileage may vary, depending on your expectations.

[Bwaha]

Considering the amount of time that I get enjoyment out of this game, I feel that this game is fairly priced. If you are so poor that 50 bucks is too much to spend, go recycle some tin cans, or take up a collection...:D

[Beorne]

C'mon man, you know that indie developers have different businness models than the big companies ^^

And about free games, oh c'mon. ^^ Even if a free game gives you 1 out of a scale of maximum 10000 of fun factor, of course it's great compared to anything that costs money, becauses you didn't spend a penny for that. ^^ To me Dom3 is great value for money. I liked Age of Wonders very much, but there is no comparison with Dom3 to me ;)

If you play Nethack, Adom, Freeciv or Wesnoth ... their value is very much higher than 1.

[Sombre]

Executor you might want to edit your post because Shrapnel people are probably going to roll into this thread sooner or later and they won't react well to certain things you said.

[Endoperez]

But in the case of dom3 I feel there are plenty better, cheaper games. These I would advise people on a budget to buy before Dom3. In fact I would never EVER advise someone looking for real value for money to buy dom3. It's just too expensive.

I agree to a point. I wouldn't tell anyone to buy Dominions 3 unless they really enjoyed the game, but I expect that at that point they probably would have decided to buy it any way. If they were wary of the price, I'd tell them to wait for a holiday sale.

I'm not sure I would recommend Dom3 to someone who was uncertain after trying the demo.

[Gandalf Parker]

Heehee. I guess that comparing it to a free game would make it costly. :)

But since I, and my friends, are all likely to pay that much for many of our games I was comparing it with those. I wouldnt ask Illwinter to release it for free. Well.. maybe Dom 1. And since they have recently released their first game (Conquest of Ellysium) for free download maybe that will follow.

[Tifone]

Well I suggested the game with no problem. I said it's pricey. I said "try the demo and have your opinion, I don't regret any single € i spent on it". And I am NOT definitively a millionaire - the most of my games, I take with magazines at 5 €, and they are great games sure, but if once i am willing to spend some money on a game I appreciate, Dom3 is my choice, and it was my best choice so far ^_^

Oh damn, I'm turning into a frigging fanboy XD

PS my sister is 17 and works in free time in a ice cream shop. If she would, she could buy the game in 2 part-time days of work... giving ice cream. I mean, I know we all work or study and 40€ aren't surely a few, but for the many hours of fun you can get from this game, you can buy a less pricey pair of jeans or shoes once, try your first work if you're young (even washing the car and cleaning your room could do the job for mom and dad XD ). It doesn't seem to me the cost opportunity of this fun is so high.

PPS if you're asking what I did, I didn't go to the disco /one/ night. My 40€ saved for the game ^^

Peace

[Foodstamp]

Dominions has actually been a money saver for me. I have not purchased another game until Spore came out a few days ago. Dominions will stay on my PC and I can already tell Spore's days are numbered.

They both cost roughly the same. But it is fairly obvious which one is going to be the better value for me in the long run. :D

[Aezeal]

Well I've played AoW and time in dominions is going far over 20x what I played that with modding etc etc :D I can't imagine you spend as much time on AoW as you are doing on Dom 3 Sombre but if you say so..

Sure free games screw up the formula but considering my income you'd need to take installing the game in to the equation so that gives all games a price :D you're busy at least like 15-30 min with it.. thats like 5 E - 10E so that makes dom 3 like 55 E and other games 5 E -10 E.. so then you'd only need to spend 5-11x as much time or have that much more fun with dom 3
.. ok all going a bit far maybe but comparing with free games is just abusing a loophole in the equation :D

I still think that for pplz into these kinds of games paying about 20 E extra for dominions compared to nearly all other games will give them MUCH more value for their coin.

[TheMenacer]

My only real contention with the game's price is that while it's not all that bad (retail price, which is slightly high for an indie game, but hey, I've blown more than my money's worth of time playing it) I can't help but feel that if the game were 30 dollars we'd see a jump in sales and, more importantly, in community size and in a game that relies so heavily on multiplayer, community size is a huge deal.

[Gandalf Parker]

Im not sure if this is the type of game which would make a really big jump in sales based only on the price. The number of players which would enjoy a game like this seems fairly fixed. Maybe if it was "prettier" by new game standards you could sell quite abit based on cost alone.

[Sombre]

Well I've played AoW and time in dominions is going far over 20x what I played that with modding etc etc :D I can't imagine you spend as much time on AoW as you are doing on Dom 3 Sombre but if you say so..


I didn't say so or imply so. Did you actually read my post? I said Dom3 is one of my top games, but I am biased. When advising others in terms of game purchases, I would maintain a far more objective view, which is that Dom3 is not great value for money. How much time I spent on it isn't relevant. Hell I don't play AoW at all, but I recognise it's damn near as good as Dom3 at a fraction of the price.


I still think that for pplz into these kinds of games paying about 20 E extra for dominions compared to nearly all other games will give them MUCH more value for their coin.

Except that Dom3 costs more than an extra 20E over a huge number of excellent games.

Im not sure if this is the type of game which would make a really big jump in sales based only on the price. The number of players which would enjoy a game like this seems fairly fixed. Maybe if it was "prettier" by new game standards you could sell quite abit based on cost alone.

Well I just gave an example of people who would probably buy it if it was cheaper. My friends. Again, I'm not trying to tell Shrapnel how to do their job. I'm just unwilling to ignore topics like "You can't complain this game is costly"

I find the 'if you can't afford 50 bucks you're a joke' attitude in here pretty silly too. For one thing, it's far more than 50 bucks for a lot of people. I ordered dom3 when I was in China. Not only did it cost more than 50 bucks total, it also cost me a substantial chunk of my wages. Plenty of people won't spend 50+ on a game when there are far cheaper alternatives available, regardless of the 'just skip going out one night of the week' BS you spoiled students are coming out with. If you're going to compare it with the cost of other things, make them comparable eg. other strategy games that have been out as long as dom3 (or have other similarities).

[Gandalf Parker]

Everyone has something comparable they could give up. Maybe some Starbucks, or fast food,
or maybe a couple bags of herb.:re:

[lch]

Or a liver or a kidney. Hell, everybody got at least two of them. :rolleyes:

[thejeff]

Maybe I could not buy groceries, 4-5 days without food should cover it.
Or not buy gas for a week+, of course then I can't get to work, which sort of defeats the purpose...

Actually I had no real problem affording Dom3 when it came out, partly because I live pretty cheaply already, but I have to agree that this idea that everyone is casually blowing $50+ a week on entertainment or fast food is nonsense. There are a couple of fairly regular things I could cut back on before getting to food, but not a lot.

[Tifone]

C'mon guys! A week without weed and you can afford the game :D

(Joking, never used drugs)

[Aezeal]

Sombre I read your post.. but when giving your opinion you are supposed to be biased, they are asking your opinion aren't they :D. And for me my opinion is that giving 50 euro for Dominions is a better deal than spending it on 5 games (I could name a few) that in total would give me less satisfaction.

on the getting the cash by not spending it on other stuff: I think you are a bit harsh to students that happen to have cash or pplz with a decent job that can afford going out for 50 dollars (which I think is quite a large part of quite some nations) Well even 50 E can be reached by saving 5 E a week.. if you can't save 5 E a week on anything then you shouldn't be buying games at all I think since you have other stuff on your mind :D

PS I'm going to study now else dominions (this thread alone even) might cost me 1400 E when I don't succeed my advanced trauma life support course (yes I know it's way cheaper in the states but here it actually is 1400 E.. and my boss only pays if I succeed it.

I can afford not to mind 50 E once in a while but 1400 is a lot of money :D (anyone who disagrees can start donating cash right now)

[Beorne]

The issue has drifted away ... I wanted to say say that, yes, DomIII for 50 is costly. But almost any very good and new strategy game costs almost the same, and when the price drops it is mandatory to buy the epansions and when the price and the expansions will go budget there will be the n+1 release.
I'm currently playing EUIII, very good and well done game, but without the expansions the AI is simply silly.

[JimMorrison]

In a straight cost and time ratio it would lose by default to all the free games I've played. So that's not a sensible way of measuring the value for money.


Nonsense. Your computer is necessary hardware to play any game at all. Therefore, the cost of the initial purchase must be ameliorated out over the cost of each game/hour.

Placed in these terms, it makes the cost "reductions" of other, inferior games that much more ludicrous. It also makes a free flash game that you play for 3 hours and never look at again, utterly unable to compete against games that you put any real energy into.


In your case Sombre, I think it's pretty simple - you can gauge your friends' tastes. Either they won't get deeply enough into Dom3 to appreciate it at its fair price - or they will. I can't imagine that anyone who likes TBS fantasy wouldn't go head over heels for Dom3, just like the rest of us have.


So, while you can argue that the purchase of the software (and CD-key) required to play Dom3 is more expensive than the software of some other games, the stigma of "costly" erodes rapidly when you look closely enough at what you get, for what you pay.


Personally, I find it rare anymore that I purchase a game, and I'm happy with the amount of money exchanged, and what I got. Hell, I bought Sword of the Stars for $15 on Amazon, and I still felt ripped off. :P

[Archonsod]

When I pre-ordered Doms 3 it didn't cost me any more than the average game from the store (slightly cheaper in fact), but then I get to take advantage of currency fluctuations :P

(Weird thing was it managed to get from the US over here to the UK, pass through customs and reach my door within three days. Comparably, stuff posted from Jersey (the UK one, not the US) has been taking over a week to arrive since they brought in the anti-terror security. Makes me think there's something the government haven't been telling us ;) )

To Sombre:
Al the other games I cited cost more than Dom3 if you take them complete (with the expansions)

To look at it another way, when you compare what (purely for example) Warlords added to Civ IV with the content added in the average Dominions update they're pretty much equal in terms of content added. Dominions updates are free though, whereas 2K Games wanted twenty quid for Warlords.

Personally though Dominions 3 has been one of the cheapest games I ever bought in terms of playing time vs. cost.

[Theonlystd]

I've beat this horse to death every time this debate comes up.


As long as the game costs basically 60 dollars comparable to games that have millions and millions in devlopment costs while looking like it does.. Then factor in its age.

I wont be able to get any one to purchase it..


And the whole Dom3 will give them the best cost to play ratio.. Thats a horrible argument cause not everyone will like dom3.. Its a great game for me but not something everyone is going to like. So they gotta take into account prices and such.

[JimMorrison]

And the whole Dom3 will give them the best cost to play ratio.. Thats a horrible argument cause not everyone will like dom3.. Its a great game for me but not something everyone is going to like. So they gotta take into account prices and such.


No, they need to play the demo. I didn't buy Dom3 until I realized that I couldn't enjoy other games anymore. I was bewitched, ensorceled, and seduced.

Last I checked, no one wanted to hear anyone complain about the graphics. If your friends directly relate graphical quality to gaming enjoyment, then they may as well shovel out $30 at a time for whatever titles are falling off the best seller lists. And they can do that over, and over, and over again. Meanwhile, I'll still be playing Dom3. ;)

<3

Oh and PS- The graphical "style" perhaps isn't what is in vogue right now, but most of the sprites are actually rather high quality, and most of the maps (not random maps) are quite lovely. They just don't jump out at you in full 3D and yell BOOM HEADSHOT. :P

[Edi]

The argument for buying Dom3 presupposes that you actually like fantasy TBS games, else why buy it in the first place? I detest race car games and I wouldn't buy them at even a $1 price tag, no matter how good graphics, controls, physics simulation etc etc. Hell, I wouldn't take one of those for free unless to give as a gift, because they take up space I am not willing to allocate to them.

The costs of development vs other games where millions were used is a total non-starter, because the ones that do get that kind of budgets are mass-market games while Dom3 is a niche market game. If you had any real competition in this niche with other comparable games, price reduction might be necessary for Dom3, but so far I haven't seen much in the way of viable competition and neither apparently have Shrapnel.

As far as the positions expressed in this thread, I don't think anyone is about to change their positions much. It's been discussed before and it never happened those times either.

So in that respect it's going to be :deadhorse:

[JimMorrison]

That horse isn't dead, he's just napping.

[Sombre]

Nonsense. Your computer is necessary hardware to play any game at all. Therefore, the cost of the initial purchase must be ameliorated out over the cost of each game/hour.

Nonsense. I didn't buy the computer to play games. Whether or not games even existed, I'd still have bought the same laptop. So in my case (and in the case of my friends) that's like claiming you have to factor in the cost of optical prescriptions + a pair of glasses, your normal trainers or years of eating relatively healthy food to work out how much value for money a game of football is.

In your case Sombre, I think it's pretty simple - you can gauge your friends' tastes. Either they won't get deeply enough into Dom3 to appreciate it at its fair price - or they will. I can't imagine that anyone who likes TBS fantasy wouldn't go head over heels for Dom3, just like the rest of us have.

So, while you can argue that the purchase of the software (and CD-key) required to play Dom3 is more expensive than the software of some other games, the stigma of "costly" erodes rapidly when you look closely enough at what you get, for what you pay.

I understand more than most what you get when you buy dom3 and I don't see it as being great value for money, despite it being one of my favourite games. All of my other top 10 games are far cheaper. Most games I would objectively consider better are also cheaper. There are games directly comparable with dom3 (well designed fantasy strategy games with lots of content) which are all a lot cheaper too.

You could say that about any game 'if you get really into it, it will be worth the cost'. It has nothing to do with this discussion. Even if I could convince my friends to take a punt un such an expensive game, which I seriously doubt, I can't be sure that they'd get deeply into it, as with any game. It's far less of a risk for me to ask them to buy a cheaper game. Especially when there are plenty of cheaper games that are as good as dom3.

[Tifone]

I was bewitched, ensorceled, and seduced.


Hey, same effect on me too ^^


Oh and PS- The graphical "style" perhaps isn't what is in vogue right now, but most of the sprites are actually rather high quality, and most of the maps (not random maps) are quite lovely. They just don't jump out at you in full 3D and yell BOOM HEADSHOT. :P

Actually, I must say I like the graphics a lot. Can't explain why but I fall for them. I always liked 2d (Abe's oddissey, besta frigging game eva) and Dom3 has a lot of quality sprites. Yeah random maps could be better, they could have used the "old style map" effect of some of the maps instead of those strange trees and mountains around on my paper :rolleyes:

PS hey, I may be wrong but I didn't see you around these last days Jim. If I'm right welcome back ^^

[HoneyBadger]

I'd suggest you invite your friends over to the forum, Sombre. You don't have to buy the game to register. If we can't convince them it's worth atleast giving the free demo a chance, then they probably really *are* a lost cause.

I'd also hope that you've found some friends here as well-as the forum really would be less without your presence and extensive contributions.

As far as what the game is actually worth, in my case, I'd say out of everyone, I'm getting the most "bang" for my buck, when it comes to Dom3. I'm not even able to play the damn game, and I'm still here almost every day, having a great time building mods and being as social as I generally get (work for an airline for a few years, you learn to appreciate life without so many people in it, and you also learn to appreciate and choose positive people in a positive environment).

So basically, even if I didn't physically own a Dom3 CD (it's getting dusty on the shelf behind me), I'd still be getting entertainment value out of it. Plenty of education too (I now know more about African history and culture than I ever thought possible, and I'm a better artist.). And it's even comparatively healthy, psychologically, as these forums are a nice distraction and stress-reducer while I'm working.

And I second Jim-I can't get in to other games anymore, like I get in to Dom3. I can't even get in to other forums. This forum is like an island of calm and refinement in a very scary, very stupid universe.

Still, you're right that taken as a game, it's more expensive than many, and will remain so. But I contend that it's better considered as a hobby. Hobby-wise, it's very cheap. Owning and restoring a vintage Dodge Charger is a reasonably cheap hobby at around 15,000 or so. You can buy a small boat for the same price, if you'd rather sail. Various other hobbies (cooking, sports, books, sex, drugs, rock&roll), you'll probably spend 15,000 on them over the course of an average lifetime. There are plenty of more expensive hobbies out there, and for a lifelong preoccupation, 15,000 isn't terribly unreasonable for something that you own and identify with, and that's a part of who you are.

Frankly, if the Devs offered up the complete source-code for Dom3, to be used on a strictly non-commercial basis (as in we couldn't sell it to others, and could only share our versions with others who had paid the fee), at $15,000 a pop, I'd think long and hard about ways I could raise that much money, and then if I did, I'd spend even more time and money learning to write code for it, and trying to convince colleges and libraries that it was worth their investing in it too.

That's roughly 300 copies of the game at the price I bought it (including taxes). No small amount of money (more than 10% of the cost of my house), but taken as a hobby, as something that was a part of my life and my identity, rather than as a game, not entirely an unreasonable price.

Ofcourse, working for an airline as I do, I could just take a discount flight to Sweden, sit on the Devs' couch, and try to pitch what a great asset I'd be to Illwinter :)

Sid Meyer never invited me over to his couch, the bastard.

[Theonlystd]

And the whole Dom3 will give them the best cost to play ratio.. Thats a horrible argument cause not everyone will like dom3.. Its a great game for me but not something everyone is going to like. So they gotta take into account prices and such.


No, they need to play the demo. I didn't buy Dom3 until I realized that I couldn't enjoy other games anymore. I was bewitched, ensorceled, and seduced.

Last I checked, no one wanted to hear anyone complain about the graphics. If your friends directly relate graphical quality to gaming enjoyment, then they may as well shovel out $30 at a time for whatever titles are falling off the best seller lists. And they can do that over, and over, and over again. Meanwhile, I'll still be playing Dom3. ;)

<3

Oh and PS- The graphical "style" perhaps isn't what is in vogue right now, but most of the sprites are actually rather high quality, and most of the maps (not random maps) are quite lovely. They just don't jump out at you in full 3D and yell BOOM HEADSHOT. :P
i dont find the demo to be the best representation of the game and well its a nonstarter with the games price .

And graphics dont have alot to do with the enjoyment of the game for them. But those fancy graphics are a large part of why games with the spiffy graphics cost 50,60 dollars. You have to have a team of artists for quite some time to work on em.

The sprites arent bad.. But id hardly say the "style" isnt in vogue.. This "style" isnt going to suddenly become in style again.. 2d sprites arent going to make some kind of come back..

And i pretty much play exclusively on random maps and they look pretty meh..

[Aezeal]

yeah the free demo should be enough to see if someone likes the game or not.

PS anyone who says the graphics are a strong point of dom 3 is nuts.. they did nearly the best they could with it as they are (though some modders are slightly better) but you don't play this game for the graphics.

Honey you wouldn't buy the code.. you can't even buy your own computer to put the game on dammit :D

[Sombre]

Of course, working for an airline as I do, I could just take a discount flight to Sweden, sit on the Devs' couch, and try to pitch what a great asset I'd be to Illwinter :)

Is that a threat? I believe the restraining order prohibits it.

[Gandalf Parker]

But the argument that its not everyones game doesnt argue for lowering the price, it argues for leaving it the same. The amount of lowering of a profit margin has to create a larger gain in sales in order to make it a good move. The more you lower it, the more gain it must create. On games with a ceiling on sales (such as a specific small market) you have to go with basic cost+profit sales price.

[Edratman]

I'm staying out of this, but I do want to know where EDI got the very cool "beating a dead horse" graphic.

[Edi]

It's part of the standard set of forum smilies here. I actually recommended that it be added when the forums were being tested and it was included.

It's

:deadhorse:

[Gandalf Parker]

The problem with this thread is that the topic is misleading.
Obviously you CAN complain that this game is costly. :soap:
You just cant expect a lot of agreement on it. :)

[Edratman]

:clap::clap::you:


Thanks EDI.

You got me to check out the "more" on the smiles list. Some really nice work in there. Kudos to whomever is responsible.:up::up::up:

[Ballbarian]

PS anyone who says the graphics are a strong point of dom 3 is nuts..

As far as I am concerned the graphics are a strong point of dom3.

One of the things that I love about this game is the fact that it has beautiful 2d unit sprites. Easy to edit, easy on the graphics card, easy to create new content and have many, many, many more units and options than would exist otherwise.

[Jazzepi]

PS anyone who says the graphics are a strong point of dom 3 is nuts..

As far as I am concerned the graphics are a strong point of dom3.

One of the things that I love about this game is the fact that it has beautiful 2d unit sprites. Easy to edit, easy on the graphics card, easy to create new content and have many, many, many more units and options than would exist otherwise.

Yeah, if anything, the simple graphics allow for a relatively straightforward modding process and low over head when creating a new unit as well as when distributing mods.

Jazzepi

[Sombre]

I agree that the graphics are functionally excellent. It is thanks to the system of two small, fairly simple sprites that I'm able to mod the way I do. I made mods for Total Annihilation too, but they were limited to AI and stat tweaks, not new graphics, because 3d graphics are just too much for me.

That said, Dom3 is far from a pretty game and graphically it could have come from several generations ago.

[Gandalf Parker]

Yes Ive seen some of my favorite games with strong modding communities basically die because the devs shifted to higher level graphics, sounds, or programming languages. Such a change doesnt do much good if it kills the supporting community.

[Jazzepi]

Personally I wish that games like this were more extensible from the start.

For example, I would love to see the option to add in 3-4 more sprites for different animations. Maybe a sprite with a replling animation, or a sprite for a spell casting animation, or a sprite for dying, like collapsing into a pile of red bloody, dead barbarian.

But the developers have done a great job of adding functionality to the game, especially in the modding department.

Jazzepi

[Edi]

Personally I wish that games like this were more extensible from the start.

For example, I would love to see the option to add in 3-4 more sprites for different animations. Maybe a sprite with a replling animation, or a sprite for a spell casting animation, or a sprite for dying, like collapsing into a pile of red bloody, dead barbarian.

But the developers have done a great job of adding functionality to the game, especially in the modding department.

Jazzepi
Such things would be easier to do if designed in from the ground up. Bolting that kind of stuff on an old engine is a lot trickier to do.

[Jazzepi]

Personally I wish that games like this were more extensible from the start.

For example, I would love to see the option to add in 3-4 more sprites for different animations. Maybe a sprite with a replling animation, or a sprite for a spell casting animation, or a sprite for dying, like collapsing into a pile of red bloody, dead barbarian.

But the developers have done a great job of adding functionality to the game, especially in the modding department.

Jazzepi
Such things would be easier to do if designed in from the ground up. Bolting that kind of stuff on an old engine is a lot trickier to do.

Oh, I understand. It's just something that would add a lot of value to the graphics side of it for me if the units had more than two sprites.

Jazzepi

[capnq]

Most of the people who complain about the price of computer games seem to forget that they're a luxury item, and that luxury items go for whatever people will pay for them. They've also been spoiled by the mainstream publishers' business model of soaking the early adopters for as much as they can before the word gets out about how bad the game is, then dumping whatever inventory they have left at fire sale prices. (I'd also mention people forgetting anything they learned in economics class, but most people haven't even taken one.)

[Sombre]

Games that are recognised to be great and come out to critical acclaim will drop in price just as quickly as crapfests if they are equally popular.

So I don't follow that 'drop the price when everyone realises how bad it is' argument at all. If I had to make a top 100 best games of all time, the majority of them would be dirt cheap by now.

[HoneyBadger]

I'm all for more sprites per unit in the game, but I do understand and appreciate that just 2 sprites per unit makes things a whole lot easier to mod new things in.

To give you an example:
My 'Aksum' mod has 34 units that I've made sprites for, so far. Times 2, that's 68. With additional sprites, banners, etc. etc. and the like, let's say 80 sprites. If we add 1 additional sprite per unit-let's say for repelling, that's 120. A sprite for spellcasting/archery, that makes it 160. Add another for wounded/dying, you've got 160. 1 more for advancing-with-weapons-at-the-ready, 200. Berserk, 240. Resistant (fire, cold, poison, shock), 400. Fatigued, Paralyzed, Turned to Stone, Horror Marked/Cursed, Poisoned, Diseased, Morale-broken-peed-self-fleeing-in-terror, that's 560. You can see where this is going. Now take that times 80 for the approximate number of vanilla and mod nations in the game...2 sprites is ok. I don't have a problem with 2 sprites per unit.

[Jazzepi]

I'm all for more sprites per unit in the game, but I do understand and appreciate that just 2 sprites per unit makes things a whole lot easier to mod new things in.

To give you an example:
My 'Aksum' mod has 34 units that I've made sprites for, so far. Times 2, that's 68. With additional sprites, banners, etc. etc. and the like, let's say 80 sprites. If we add 1 additional sprite per unit-let's say for repelling, that's 120. A sprite for spellcasting/archery, that makes it 160. Add another for wounded/dying, you've got 160. 1 more for advancing-with-weapons-at-the-ready, 200. Berserk, 240. Resistant (fire, cold, poison, shock), 400. Fatigued, Paralyzed, Turned to Stone, Horror Marked/Cursed, Poisoned, Diseased, Morale-broken-peed-self-fleeing-in-terror, that's 560. You can see where this is going. Now take that times 80 for the approximate number of vanilla and mod nations in the game...2 sprites is ok. I don't have a problem with 2 sprites per unit.

You're operating under the assumption that those new sprites would be required. It would be simple enough, if it were thought of in advance, for the game engine to plan on using only two sprites, but when a new condition comes up, or the unit takes a specific action, the engine could check to see if there is a sprite available for that action/condition.

Jazzepi

[HoneyBadger]

Oh I know. I suggested adding something like 12 separate sprites per unit maybe a year ago (I think it was in one of the mod suggestion threads?), and that was based around the idea that the Devs wouldn't have to go back and redo that many sprites for each Nation. Adding more would be nice, and it could possibly be done unobtrusively. I'm just saying that-as a mod maker-I can live with just 2 per unit.

[Trumanator]

I'm not sure about whether 60$ plus S&H is too much or not, but I do think that one issue an expensive game can have is more piracy than a cheap game. A game thats ~30 bucks or so 3 months after release is cheap enough for people who aren't fanatics to buy and enjoy. Limewire's already killed the cd industry, not that I'm lamenting it, but the same can be a problem for small indy devs.

[Jazzepi]

I'm not sure about whether 60$ plus S&H is too much or not, but I do think that one issue an expensive game can have is more piracy than a cheap game. A game thats ~30 bucks or so 3 months after release is cheap enough for people who aren't fanatics to buy and enjoy. Limewire's already killed the cd industry, not that I'm lamenting it, but the same can be a problem for small indy devs.

I'm pretty sure price fixing killed the CD industry. Greed dug their own grave.

Jazzepi

[Trumanator]

I dunno, although now that I think about it Itunes and other digital music vendors probably helped a lot. I'm a little averse to ascribing failure of a whole industry to moral failures or stupidity. One company maybe, or even a number of them, but the whole industry? People just don't buy CDs anymore period. Besides thats kinda irrelevant to my larger point, even if I'm exaggerating a bit.

[Jazzepi]

IMO the record labels created incredible pressure outwards away from their products by producing an artificially high price for a CD. Even though the price of minting and production had fallen, the price of the CD stays the same. Normally when the cost to the producer goes down, the price of the product goes down in turn, since there's a competitive advantage at selling for less than your competitors in the market place.

But since they were fixing prices and creating a non-competitive enviroment...

http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2002-09-30-cd-settlement_x.htm

... the large labels charged a relatively outrageous price for CDs despite the lowering costs.

The high price turns people off from buying the product, but since there was no alternative, there was no choice. The moment MP3s hit the internet with Limewire, bearshare, Napster, there was suddenly a much cheaper (IE Free) choice for getting music. It's not just that you could download stuff for free, it's the fact that the music industry did such a terrific job of pushing people away from their products by installing DRM on CDs...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Sony_BMG_CD_copy_protection_scandal

... and charging way too much for a product that should cost a lot less.

The way I see it, the rise of the internet pirate is a direct response to the CD price fixing cartel.

Jazzepi

[Trumanator]

Okay you win Jazzepi. I was only using an example though, we've both just gone OT debating soemething that really doesn't matter.

[JimMorrison]

Jazzepi is the win! \o/

And Dom3 still isn't costly. :rolleyes:

[Gandalf Parker]

A common lament. And I would believe it.
Except for all of the (musicians, programmers, artists, etc) who say they will break the mold, start an effort on their own, and end up in the same boat or fail. I cant quite figure that they all just joined the conspiracy.

Have you ever read the story of Shrapnel?

Gandalf Parker

[JimMorrison]

A common lament. And I would believe it.
Except for all of the (musicians, programmers, artists, etc) who say they will break the mold, start an effort on their own, and end up in the same boat or fail. I cant quite figure that they all just joined the conspiracy.


You don't have to join a conspiracy, to get bought out by one. Musicians, by and large, have absolutely 0 say and 0 sway in their own industry. They want to succeed? Well, they sign with the major label that will promote them. Most successful bands that you know these days that have their own label - why, they got their break with a major label, and they were just very savvy, saved up their money, finished their contract, and made it out on their own. Most artists get locked into the corporate machine, and never manage to break free. Same with game makers. Sure, maybe some of the developers who are distributed through Shrapnel support themselves with their software sales - but I doubt very many at all. If they want their games to pay the bills, they join a studio. And again, most of them never get out of that trap.

Part of why Shrapnel succeeds in the way that it does, is there is little pressure. They can serve the long term interests of their developers, as well as the interests of their players. By the same token, you could make some recordings of you and your banjo, belting out old Elvis tunes (shudder), but regardless of whether or not you find a way to make that project "successful", it'll never support you. To make a living at it, you pray someone finds you, and gives you the tools that you can't come up with by yourself.

I would be a fool to say that our JK and KO are quite unique in their programming abilities. Granted, they are very rare indeed, but what is more rare is their ability to see a project of this size through to completion. There are a million programmers out there who could make a good game (at least, a good -niche- game), but who don't have the stamina to ever complete anything even close to this size and scope.

So, the industry preys on both ends, you see. They prey on the producer, and they prey on the consumer. Like any corporation, they become voracious and entirely self absorbed. And that's why Shrapnel is different, because it isn't a "corporation" per se (I don't know if they actually are incorporated, though I doubt it), and so it still retains some measure of humanity, and along with it the understanding that managing your resources can give greater yields than devouring them.


Whew.

<3

[Gandalf Parker]

Sorry but Ive been involved in both marketing industries (music and game) and I have to disagree. From the outside it would appear that there are no choices except the big boys but that is not at all true. There are levels anywhere from free to major contracts in both markets. All of the options have their pros and cons. None are automatic failure (or automatic wealth) so its up to the individual which way they want to jump. Any of the methods make money, but going with the major contractors is the way to make LOTS of money. So if that was the choice of the artist/developer then you cant really knock the tactics.

Gandalf Parker