Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason

[Adept]

I bet somebody has written about this before, but a search didn't bring it up.

If you have the ability to cast Gift of Reason, or ever the chance to get it in a reasonable number of turns when the Eternal Knights come on to the market, I recommend making sure to get them (put in a serious bid).

Gift of Reason as many of the knights as you can afford. In my experience they are the best value for money commanders in the whole game, and definitely worth the nature gems.

[JaghataiKhan]

I saw them, they are definitely Knights on Horse-steroids. Can I have them indefinitely when reason-blessing? I don't have experience with mercs mercenaries except Green Horde, Shipwreckers, Elephant Corps, Hector's Horsemen and that inquisitor with pikemen.

[Epaminondas]

I bet somebody has written about this before, but a search didn't bring it up.

If you have the ability to cast Gift of Reason, or ever the chance to get it in a reasonable number of turns when the Eternal Knights come on to the market, I recommend making sure to get them (put in a serious bid).

Gift of Reason as many of the knights as you can afford. In my experience they are the best value for money commanders in the whole game, and definitely worth the nature gems.

Do mercenary units that have been gifted and hence made commanders become yours permanently?

[Edi]

Do mercenary units that have been gifted and hence made commanders become yours permanently?
The opening post implies that they do. After all, the mercenary behavior is tied to specific individual commanders. Their units cannot be reassigned either, but if you GoR one, it becomes a commander and is no longer assignable to any squad. So presumably the restrictions vanish.

[Epaminondas]

Do mercenary units that have been gifted and hence made commanders become yours permanently?
The opening post implies that they do. After all, the mercenary behavior is tied to specific individual commanders. Their units cannot be reassigned either, but if you GoR one, it becomes a commander and is no longer assignable to any squad. So presumably the restrictions vanish.

Bejeezus! I learn new thing about this game everyday--or every time I read this forum!

But the problem with the tactic discussed is that I tend not to research Thaumaturgy early (and I play Very Difficult Research mode games), and I can almost always get stronger summonable Commanders by the time I have it researched.

[Edi]

You're not alone in that. I always play difficult or very difficult research, it makes BI games more of a challenge. Having too much magic too early on leads to just annihilating the AI in hordes.

[Adept]

[QUOTE=Adept;639607]I bet somebody has
Do mercenary units that have been gifted and hence made commanders become yours permanently?

YES!

Sorry, I assumed this was common knowledge.

[NTJedi]

One positive note is these mercenaries have zero gold upkeep!

One negative note is... be aware that these GoR mercenaries will not release any items you give them. So whatever item you provide be prepared for them to keep it until death.

[Sombre]

Also they aren't actually that great, statwise.

[thejeff]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the big deal is. They're great as troops if you've got a good bless, mostly due to being sacred and to having good armor and a good weapon.

As thugs though, you'd replace the weapons and armor so you're getting a fairly weak chassis with only the sacred to really recommend it. If you could do it early game, it might be good, but GoR is late enough you'll have other options.

[Edratman]

How could someone thought of GOR'ing a merc??

I'm always impressed when someone comes up with something clever that hasn't popped up before. :up:

[Tifone]

How could someone thought of GOR'ing a merc??

I'm always impressed when someone comes up with something clever that hasn't popped up before. :up:

Totally agree ^_^ I think it's the best part of this game that there are so many little things that you come to know through YEARS of playing and foruming :D

[JimMorrison]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the big deal is. They're great as troops if you've got a good bless, mostly due to being sacred and to having good armor and a good weapon.

As thugs though, you'd replace the weapons and armor so you're getting a fairly weak chassis with only the sacred to really recommend it. If you could do it early game, it might be good, but GoR is late enough you'll have other options.



Don't the Eternal Knights all have a Flambeau? That makes this trick especially nice for those who don't have strong access to Fire, or lack Fire gems for whatever reason. And if you have Water for Boots of Quickness, all the better.

I haven't seen these guys in ages, but I swore I always had their commander set to Cast Spells. So if you want the guy for the weapon spell (I think 20N for a guy who can spam that, and lead troops, is a bargain for a non-F nation), then there is no reason to thug him out. All you'd put on him is the Boots if you can, and then maybe an AM Ammy just for good measure. ;)

[Sombre]

By the looks of your post, you're confusing flambeau the weapon with flambeau the item. The weapon is just a good two handed sword that messes up undead. The item allows you to spam holy pyre and is thus far better, especially with quickness.

To be clear - Eternal Knights do NOT have flambeau. Giving one quickness is just going to get him killed from fatigue to be honest.

[JimMorrison]

By the looks of your post, you're confusing flambeau the weapon with flambeau the item. The weapon is just a good two handed sword that messes up undead. The item allows you to spam holy pyre and is thus far better, especially with quickness.

To be clear - Eternal Knights do NOT have flambeau. Giving one quickness is just going to get him killed from fatigue to be honest.

Hmmm. I could have sworn that the merc commander is able to cast the spell though. I guess if that memory is faulty, then it would not make sense at all that the units would be capable of casting it. ;)

I actually had forgotten about these guys (they show up so rarely), but I was working on builds for a Virtue, and noted that her Flambeau wouldn't cast the Pyre, and so realized I must have been remembering this guy. Oh well! :p

[archaeolept]

i believe the commander has the item, as opposed to just being ascribed the weapon.

[Lingchih]

But you cannot GOR the commander.

[Adept]

Also they aren't actually that great, statwise.

Are you serious? Even a 0 experience eternal knight is a good unit, but the mercenaries have heaps of experience.

In my experience they are utterly awesome.

[thejeff]

They're good troops, no question.

What do you do with them once they're GoR'd? Thug them out? What gear?
How do they compare with Banelords or even Firbolg Sleepers?

[Sombre]

Also they aren't actually that great, statwise.

Are you serious? Even a 0 experience eternal knight is a good unit, but the mercenaries have heaps of experience.

In my experience they are utterly awesome.

Of course I'm serious. They're just above average sacred humans. Why not just GoR and thug out one of your sacreds? Or better yet, a sacred priest/commander with some magic like a sidhe lord. The Eternal Knight has no magic, equipment that you'll probably replace and isn't even capable of blessing himself. If you want a random full flotted medium thug, why not just use a sleeper? He's cheaper and easier to get and has better stats iirc.

[Adept]

They're good troops, no question.

What do you do with them once they're GoR'd? Thug them out? What gear?
How do they compare with Banelords or even Firbolg Sleepers?

The **** experience (can't remember if it's four or fire stars they have) is the key really, as well as the natural regeneration.

I recruited them the first time when an enemy started spamming Earth Attack at me. These guys are one of the few things I could come up with capable of taking down the attacking elemental. Didn't even need to equip them that much.

For a thug the fact that the flambeau is a weapon instead of an item is no problem.

Remember that the 1000 points of experience means that they all get in the Hall of Fame and get a heroic ability as well.

***

I have to admit it's a question of style as well. I just like the backstory and look of the Eternal Knights.

[Ironhawk]

An automatic heroic ability, eh? That's pretty cool. However sombre is right - on the scale of tough units you can GoR, an eternal knight is not very high.

[Aezeal]

By the sound of it you probably shouldn't waste more gems on them by kitting them out. If they have high protection and a decent weapon then that is probably the best way to use them while not wasting to much gems.

On the other hand teh cost of GoR is probably better spend on higher level units.

[Stavis_L]

Well, at the cost of even more gems, knowing that they'll almost certainly hit the Hall of Fame means that you have a good source of mummies for Ritual of Rebirth...

[Adept]

If somebody happens to have the opportunity to do this for a screen shot, that would be cool. No Eternal Knights in any of the games I've currently got running.

I'd also be interested to hear what are these much better units you guys would rather GoR? Remember that my trick has fairly modest requirements, and produces some seriously tough commanders with decent gear.

[sum1lost]

If somebody happens to have the opportunity to do this for a screen shot, that would be cool. No Eternal Knights in any of the games I've currently got running.

I'd also be interested to hear what are these much better units you guys would rather GoR? Remember that my trick has fairly modest requirements, and produces some seriously tough commanders with decent gear.

Davanas :-D

[Rytek]

Gargoyle makes a decent unit for GoR. The biggest weakness is low MR. The obvious Tartarians.

[Sombre]

If somebody happens to have the opportunity to do this for a screen shot, that would be cool. No Eternal Knights in any of the games I've currently got running.

I'd also be interested to hear what are these much better units you guys would rather GoR? Remember that my trick has fairly modest requirements, and produces some seriously tough commanders with decent gear.

Sleeper, Banelord, Bane, Devil, various recruitable thugs. None of them need GoR.

Then by the time you have GoR there are plenty other options. I'm not saying eternal knights are bad, because they aren't. They're great units and GoRing them is fun, especially since they are mercs. But it's hardly a killer tactic.

[Epaminondas]

If somebody happens to have the opportunity to do this for a screen shot, that would be cool. No Eternal Knights in any of the games I've currently got running.

I'd also be interested to hear what are these much better units you guys would rather GoR? Remember that my trick has fairly modest requirements, and produces some seriously tough commanders with decent gear.

To reiterate, I think most people tend to research Conjuration before Thamaturgy. So by the time you are able to cast Gift of Reason, I would imagine you'd have at least the mid-level Conjuration spells researched. And when you do that, there are going to be a lot of options.

[SlipperyJim]

I'd also be interested to hear what are these much better units you guys would rather GoR?
Tarrasques. Iron Dragons are also good. ;)

I'm trying to think of a suggestion that involves mundane troops, but nothing springs to mind. The problem is that most of the mundane troops who would be worthy of GoR also have a commander version that you can just recruit.

Hmmmm....

How about one of those nasty Hydras?

[thejeff]

Tarrasques, Iron Dragons and Hydras lack slots, making them less useful as commanders. Not useless, but not as good as their stats suggest.

I think Sombre nailed it. It's not that there are much better things to GoR, but there are enough better things to summon that don't need GoR at all.

Of course, later on GoR is for Wished units and Tartarians.

[SlipperyJim]

Tarrasques, Iron Dragons and Hydras lack slots, making them less useful as commanders. Not useless, but not as good as their stats suggest.
Bah! Tarrasques don't need no stinkin' magical trinkets! Give 'em an Amulet of Antimagic, and they're good to go! :D

I think Sombre nailed it. It's not that there are much better things to GoR, but there are enough better things to summon that don't need GoR at all.

Of course, later on GoR is for Wished units and Tartarians.
I agree. GoR is a very niche spell. It's a part of a couple of high-end strategies, but I mostly use it for playing around with fun toys. My GoRed Tarrasque was only one example.

Hey, how about a GoRed Ancestor Vessel from LA TC? That might be kinda cool. Certainly more stylish than leading your army with yet another Khan....

[jimkehn]

I like GoR'ing Tarrasques.

Just cuz it's fun.

[thejeff]

Not denying GoR random neat creatures. I've done it too.
But if we're talking actual utility, then there aren't a lot of options.

And I see the Eternal Knights as falling on the "playing around with fun toys" end of the spectrum, rather than the useful tool end.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Random thought: How many head item slots does a GoRred LA Pythium sacred Hydra have?

...I have not checked and the answer is probably (the boring) "one" (for the great head), but the idea of having a commander kitted out primarily with helmets is fun. :)

[Kristoffer O]

Hopefully I will one day make three headed Daityas for Lanka (replacing demon lords for the apes).

[HoneyBadger]

I'm kind of fond of the notion that atleast some monsters/beasts/animals might get an 'Armour' slot-to represent both barding, and the ability of magical armour to conform to the body of it's wearer.

[Calahan]

Random thought: How many head item slots does a GoRred LA Pythium sacred Hydra have?

...I have not checked and the answer is probably (the boring) "one" (for the great head), but the idea of having a commander kitted out primarily with helmets is fun. :)

Well if it's the same spell as EA Suaromatia's national summon "Daughter of Typhon", then the answer to the number of head slots is the very surprising zero!! just 2 misc slots. Can't help but feel that the GoR caster is getting slighty robbed on this one, unless it's got something to do with forgable helms only being able to fit certain head sizes/types. But then when I think of some of the other units you can slap a helmet on, I think again! :)

[Sombre]

The difference is wyrms like hats and hydras don't. End of story.

[JaghataiKhan]

Awww a hydra fitted with horned helmets, chi boots, two floating tridents would just be the best idea! :(

[Stavis_L]

Forget the floating tridents - go for the stone birds. :-)

[JaghataiKhan]

How many attacks are possible in one turn maximum? What SC makes the most attacks? Hindu Gods with swords of sharpnesses and chi kick\gore?

[JimMorrison]

Awww a hydra fitted with horned helmets, chi boots, two floating tridents would just be the best idea! :(


Boots of Flying! But you have to put 2 pair on (for all 4 feet), or else she just hops. :p

Also it would be pretty epic if you could put a Medallion of Vengeance on, and every time a head was killed, she exploded. :D

[JimMorrison]

Oh and I forgot to mention - Vastness. Partly because they have a hidden S3.

Are there any other units with hidden magic abilities that only are visible if you GoR them?

[thejeff]

Yeah, Vastnesses are worth GoRing.

Vastnesses scare me.

[Kadelake]

Oh and I forgot to mention - Vastness. Partly because they have a hidden S3.

Are there any other units with hidden magic abilities that only are visible if you GoR them?

Many of the angels have.

[Stavis_L]

Oh and I forgot to mention - Vastness. Partly because they have a hidden S3.

Are there any other units with hidden magic abilities that only are visible if you GoR them?

Many of the angels have.

Not to mention the non-commander Tartarians (though I presume that's obvious to anyone who reads/lurks this forum.)

[JaghataiKhan]

Wait...Vastness is an avatar of...Yog-Sothoth! AIEEEEEE! FGHTAGHN!

[NTJedi]

I say GoR a Troll Guard (unit#1425):

Comes with Regeneration
All Slots available for items
No Penalty for entering the water
Lots of Hitpoints
Good default MR = 14
Only Size_4 allowing larger stupid decoys to be the target of kill spells.

[JimMorrison]

I say GoR a Troll Guard (unit#1425):

Comes with Regeneration
All Slots available for items
No Penalty for entering the water
Lots of Hitpoints
Good default MR = 14
Only Size_4 allowing larger stupid decoys to be the target of kill spells.

Moose Knight! :D

[HoneyBadger]

I like to add hidden paths to my recruits-I think even poor F'thaggua had them.

[Adept]

I admit that GoR & eternal knight smacks a little of messing about with toys, but every time I've done it I've been impressed with the resulting commanders.

Different play styles maybe. In late game those Eternal Knight hero commanders will need Wraith Crowns to stop the enemy from whisking them away with wind ride.

[Endoperez]

How many attacks are possible in one turn maximum? What SC makes the most attacks? Hindu Gods with swords of sharpnesses and chi kick\gore?

All melee attacks made my a single monster target a single grid and the monsters in that grid. Because only three humans fit on one grid, any attacks after the third killing blow are wasted.

Quickness makes the monster target a second grid square, allowing it to attack up to 6 humans.


That said, having multiple attacks can be almost as good as having area-of-effect 1 weapon, and is better against strong single targets such as thugs and SCs. Even then, special abilities (luck, fire shield, flying, reinvigoration) are often worth more than raw damage.

[Sombre]

However unless you have some serious reinvig or base enc of 0, you are going to get very fatigued very fast.