OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS

[NTJedi]

Here's information on Stardocks upcoming Fantasy TBS game. Stardock is known for providing long-term improvements as well as providing good AI. I know Stardock likes Dominions_3 and plans to have touches of Master of Magic.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/920/920420p1.html

http://www.stardock.com/stardock/elemental.jpg

http://www.stardock.com/products/drengin/default.asp?page=comingsoon


EDIT Feb24th:
Added link to the developer diaries:

http://www.elementalgame.com/journals.asp


EDIT May29th:
Okay some bad news guys... any multiplayer gamers which have been interested in Elemental:WoM may want to voice their opinion to Stardock regarding a sudden change.

http://forums.elementalgame.com/352655

Here is the statement from the above link of Elemental journals which has struck fear in hearts of ALL multiplayer gamers of the Elemental community:

================================================== ================

BRAD:

That said, here are a few things that multiplayer in Elemental will have:

1. Multiplayer games will be hosted by us. Period. No peer to peer. Not even hosted on the user’s box. Our servers. No ports, no proxies, nothing. We’re hosting it.

================================================== ================


EDIT: June 2nd: {Developer Frogboy reply="4" id="2237359"}
PigeonPigeon:And not to be a pain, but could you shed a little light on whether LAN/Hotseat/PBEM multiplayer will be available? You made a lot of people concerned in your getting back to Elemental post.

Frogboy:
LAN almost certainly. Hot seat maybe. PBEM, not sure yet.

[Epaminondas]

I've been anticipating this game breathlessly for aeons.

[Epaminondas]

By the way, is "Elemental" the name (however tentative or provisional) of the new game? Some of your links seem to indicate that, but other sites I've been to claim that the name is still wholly undecided.

[Zeldor]

To be released in 2010? :( But they are making more games now, if your list is good. Also interesting ones.

[Gandalf Parker]

I watch Stardock closely because of Brads long standing in the AI field.

[JimMorrison]

I'm pretty sure that the Drengin.net link is several years old (it lists Galactic Civ as "in development") and not being updated. Likewise, the screenshot for Elemental looks VERY dated. Interesting investigative work, but I'd be very hesitant to agree that it means much.

But I will say, if their fantasy TBS involves the far far prehistory of Galactic Civ universe, that could be a very cool concept to work with.

[WraithLord]

Screenshot looks quite MOMish for a "NONE" MOM2 game.

Finally the (not) sequel to MOM2 is coming. And by the capable of hands of stardock. This can't get any better :D

[Sombre]

I find it hard to get excited about something we don't know anything about that's a couple of years off. Though Galciv 1 and 2 are impressive in many ways, I don't think they are impressive in the same way as the better fantasy TBS games like AoW, MoM etc.

[WraithLord]

Well lack of *any* worthwhile Fantasy TBS games in the last years (with the exception of Disciples, AOW1 and DOM) kind of makes one excited at any promise for a new good title. Stardock GalCiv titles are very solid. They may or may not be as good as MoM but that's besides the point. We will see a new FTBS release, it may be somewhat innovative, it will bring back good memories of MoM and many good discussions of which one is better. It will bring some life to the genre.
That is good.
That makes me happy :D

[NTJedi]

The first link is what "means much" because it's new and indicates this product is still in production by Stardock. Other titles have slowed its progress.

Last year I sent an extensive email requesting many different features... one of the main developers responded saying all the features from my email already exist or are scheduled to be included.

[NTJedi]

Here is a requote from information released earlier on ideas and foundation concepts for the game:

===========================================
===========================================
Posted 11 Feb 2008:
Here's Brad's post on the Quarter to Three forums from last year.


I don't want to hijack the thread here with an tangential discussion on what should be in a fantasy strategy game. But here's my 2 cents on that:

1) Character building. The player is a character in the game. Nearly all magic in the world actually flows from the player. If you've ever read The Silmarillion (Tolkien) all the magic in Arda basically comes from the spirit of the things created by Eru. So in this sense, the player is a kind of Valar of sorts who can choose to invest their growing power into their creations/minions or into themselves (or a bit of both). That's an over simplification but the point is, part of the game mechanics is having to choose between making your forces more powerful or actual character.

2) The game is very spell-centric. The 3D engine is being designed so you can do Populous style spells to the world. Since it's turn-based (as opposed to real-time) that also means you can have some ridiculously fancy spell effects.

3) Very distinct magic schools.

4) You cannot build heroes. They have to be recruited and there's no Inn. Ones ability to attract heroes is one of the game mechanics and "interesting choices" players have. Those heroes can be wimpy or powerful depending on how the player chooses to use and invest in them.

5) There is massive scaling in this. At the beginning of Fellowship of the Rings (the movie edition) you could see just how powerful Sauron is. In this, if you manage to get a dragon, that dragon can wipe out hundreds of units. And by scale, we mean there's thousands and thousands of troops. One ancient dragon is taking out hundreds of troops.

6) Cities are built and improved and local geography matters. I won't say more on this right now.

7) Multiplayer will involve all players moving at the same time.

8) Battles zoom in so that tactical combat can occur which is also turn based.

I do want to stress that the goal for this isn't to be a MoM clone. It has its own game mechanics, many of which are in common with MoM since, in a sense, both want to have a lot of Civilization-style elements.

One advantage of being designed in 2007 is the hardware requirements are probably going to be higher than our other games. I want to see large battles. I want to see creatures that can wipe out massive numbers of foot soldiers and such. I want to see magic spells that can flood terrain, raise mountains, ruin worlds. I want to see the land sicken and die when evil takes it over.

If we'd done a MOM2, we would have been faithful to the Master of Magic mechanics. But since we're doing a new game, hopefully we'll be able to make a game that combines favorite elements from many games plus adds our own on innovations to the genre. But it'll be some months before we start putting up any previews or anything (or even announce the game officially).
==================================================
==================================================

[Tifone]

I sense the presence of an interesting game ^^

Hope the new KO and JK work will make an interesting battle with this :D

[sector24]

Speaking of TBS fantasy, King's Bounty: The Legend is a REALLY good game. After resolving the incompatibilities with my graphics card I played the demo for 6 hours straight, bought the game and have been playing as often as possible since then. Dominions doesn't mind if I cheat on her, she's cool like that. She even said something about a three-some, but I was playing games so I didn't hear her...

[Epaminondas]

Speaking of TBS fantasy, King's Bounty: The Legend is a REALLY good game. After resolving the incompatibilities with my graphics card I played the demo for 6 hours straight, bought the game and have been playing as often as possible since then. Dominions doesn't mind if I cheat on her, she's cool like that. She even said something about a three-some, but I was playing games so I didn't hear her...

Where can I get the demo?

I tend not to like Heroes of Might and Magic-like stacks in tactical battles, but I will give it a go if your endorsement is so ringing :)

[Epaminondas]

Also, I thought King's Bounty was real-time on the adventure map, not TBS?

[calmon]

King's Bounty is real time on strategy map and turn based on tactical fights!

I can confirm that this game is really a good one! Its a lot of fun to me on "impossible" difficult and its really hard to decide how and where to fight next and not to run out of gold. For me is the best game came out in 2008.

The quests are very funny and have a lot of humor (even only text quests)! I find the campaign mode much better than HoMM's scenario campaigns.

The game surpised me many times with cool new features during playtime.

Take a look on it!

[lch]

Speaking of TBS fantasy, King's Bounty: The Legend is a REALLY good game.

Where can I get the demo?
Here: http://www.gamershell.com/download_32652.shtml

I liked the demo enough that I instantly bought the game over GamersGate after it became available. I didn't have the time to play it anymore lately, but for the time that I played it, I really wasn't let down any. Great game!

[WraithLord]

The game looks great and given the recommendation here I think I'd go ahead and buy it.

Is it available at retail?

[lch]

I've heard that it's available for retail at Gamestop and Circuit City, yes. Then you'll have to deal with the DRM it carries, though. The downloadable version doesn't have that. GamersGate sounds the better deal for me: You can install it on up to three separate computers, and on others if you deinstall it again somewhere. The online check is only during installation, not while playing. The only problem is that you'll have to download, at least once, but you can reuse the same files again for the other installations, too.

[WraithLord]

Thanks for the tip lch. Gamer's gate does indeed seem to be the better deal. The three installation limitation doesn't pose an issue since I only have two machines. Can I D/L installation files, then burn them to disk so that I don't need to be online for subsequent install?

[lch]

Can I D/L installation files, then burn them to disk so that I don't need to be online for subsequent install?
It isn't visible in the menu of their program, I think, but yes, if you copy the downloaded installation files somewhere else then they're reusable. The only thing that their installer then redownloads again is the setup.exe.

[Epaminondas]

I can't install the demo.

[HoneyBadger]

I have very fond memories of the original 'King's Bounty'. Great game, for the silicon stone age, and had one of the better game manuals, as well.

[Epaminondas]

By the way, is "Elemental" the name (however tentative or provisional) of the new game? Some of your links seem to indicate that, but other sites I've been to claim that the name is still wholly undecided.

Looks like "Elemental" is indeed the tentative name of the game:

http://www.stardock.com/media/stardockcustomerreport-2008.pdf

[JimMorrison]

Brad Wardell is pretty awesome. I'm really looking forward to what they're going to have to offer in the future, it seems like they've got a really good handle on what pleases people.

[calmon]

The game will be announced this week in 2 days (wednesday) :):

http://forums.galciv2.com/328245

[WraithLord]

Kewl :)

Looking forward to this.

[WraithLord]

Was it announced?

[calmon]

Nope they changed the subject, now its nov. 4th!

[Epaminondas]

Nope they changed the subject, now its nov. 4th!

That sucks. Election Day? LOL.

[JimMorrison]

Nope they changed the subject, now its nov. 4th!

That sucks. Election Day? LOL.


They have made a pact with el diablo. If Obama wins, they will release the game as a TBS, as originally intended. If McCain wins, the game will shift focus to be an RTS version of GalCiv.

:eek:

[Gandalf Parker]

Announcing a hot new game on election day?
That doesnt make any sense.
Now, announcing it on election RESULTS day. That would make sense.
I might be in strong need of a good distraction to look forward to.

[HoneyBadger]

Yeah, if Mccain wins, I'm going out and buying a new computer *that day*, because it's that or make a run for Canada.

[konming]

This game will be after their current fantasy game, so I guess it will be good 2 years away, if not more.

[JimMorrison]

This game will be after their current fantasy game, so I guess it will be good 2 years away, if not more.

If by current fantasy game, you mean Demigod..... "not-MoM" is not being developed by the same studio. Stardock is just producing and distributing it.

[lwarmonger]

I believe he was referring to the game not as yet named. I seem to recall Stardock has been directly involved in the development of that one, not just producing and distribution (since they are taking and using people who may/will be working on Galciv III).

[calmon]

The game not-mom ('elemental') IS the current game developed by stardock and will be go in beta in first half 2009. The other one -demigod- will be only distributed by stardock.

I think they'll handle it like GC. Each one who preorder the game is automaticaly in the beta test.

[JimMorrison]

I guess my sleepy wording was unclear. I was in fact saying that "Demigod" is just being produced and distributed by Stardock, and that it's not the same studio that is developing "Elemental" (which is of course a Stardock internal project, and on a timeline completely unrelated to the dev timeline for Demigod).

[lwarmonger]

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, that would be accurate then.

[calmon]

There is a brand new GameSpy Preview out there with many informations and some Pics:

http://uk.pc.gamespy.com/pc/elemental-war-of-magic/926527p1.html

The full name of the game is "Elemental - War of Magic"

[Epaminondas]

There is a brand new GameSpy Preview out there with many informations and some Pics:

http://uk.pc.gamespy.com/pc/elemental-war-of-magic/926527p1.html

The full name of the game is "Elemental - War of Magic"

I found a few more previews while doing a Google search. Here is an example:

http://www.edge-online.com/features/elemental-war-magic-unveiled

[Gandalf Parker]

I am both happy and saddened.
On the one hand it looks like it will be a game worth getting.
On the other hand it is definetly NOT going to be a new MoM so I am still holding out hopes that someone will recreate "Master of Magic"

[Epaminondas]

I am both happy and saddened.
On the one hand it looks like it will be a game worth getting.
On the other hand it is definetly NOT going to be a new MoM so I am still holding out hopes that someone will recreate "Master of Magic"

Ironically, MoM was about the only fantasy strategy game I've never played. So I have no referent compare this to. Still, the graphics look pretty awful for a game that is supposed to come out in 2010 (which may be optimistic, given the endless delays that usually accompany big game releases).

[Epaminondas]

Another preview--but this one has no new pictures:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20916

[calmon]

ok now there is an official link to the game:

http://www.elementalgame.com

[WraithLord]

Awesome :D

It really doesn't sound all that much like a MOM sequel so in that I share GP's sentiments. However in a world almost devoid of good, new FTBS games it may well prove to be a breath of fresh air.
I'm looking forward to see whether the game will feature innovative stuff.
Hey and I may yet install and play another game besides dom, been a long time since I last did that :)

[Endoperez]

Still, the graphics look pretty awful for a game that is supposed to come out in 2010 (which may be optimistic, given the endless delays that usually accompany big game releases).

You could also say that the graphics look like they are for a game that needs approximately two more years before it's ready.

They are going for a rather spesific look, with thick cartoony lines around the characters. The characters looked like they were 3d-models, and if that's so they can rework the textures and the outlines independently of each other. It's like painting a miniature - once you have a mold for making them, you can paint them again and again until you like it or run out of time.

I agree that everything didn't quite feel like it fit tgether in these screenshots. Some of the trees and mountains looked strange, water and shoreline of one pick felt a little plastic etc. But that's easy to change.

[Epaminondas]

Awesome :D

It really doesn't sound all that much like a MOM sequel so in that I share GP's sentiments. However in a world almost devoid of good, new FTBS games it may well prove to be a breath of fresh air.
I'm looking forward to see whether the game will feature innovative stuff.
Hey and I may yet install and play another game besides dom, been a long time since I last did that :)

Yep, there are very few worthy fantasy strategy games. I also hope there is a revival of the Age of Wonders franchise as well--though it looks unlikely.

[DonCorazon]

Some of the art, like that in the Lore tab, reminds me of the thematic approach in Dark Tower, if anyone remembers that clunky motorized game. A sort of grim, watercolor cartoon feel that I actually like.

[WraithLord]

New AOW doesn't seem likely. I often frequent the AOW heaven (nostalgia I guess), and the word there is that the AOW devs are going for a new installment of their PSP game (overlord I think).
Too bad :(
AOW is a great game (though AOW2 wasn't, but AOWSM was better). I would love to see a continuation of the franchise.

[Gandalf Parker]

I might pre-order it. Ive been a followers of Brad for longer than most. Back when he was on Atari's and OS/2 and he was the most mentioned game source in the AI newsgroups. I heralded his coming to the newsgroups when he finally decided that Windows and Intel machines were advanced enough to support his games.
Ive always pre-supported his projects.
But I wont be expecting a MoM.

[S.R. Krol]

Brad talking about Elemental...

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=48528&page=2

[NTJedi]

Official release news from Stardock:

http://www.stardock.com/about/newsitem.asp?id=1135

[NTJedi]

New AOW doesn't seem likely. I often frequent the AOW heaven (nostalgia I guess), and the word there is that the AOW devs are going for a new installment of their PSP game (overlord I think).
Too bad :(
AOW is a great game (though AOW2 wasn't, but AOWSM was better). I would love to see a continuation of the franchise.

I agree... the AOW series could have evolved greatly yet the devs lacked the vision. They now pursue an unpopular game because it brings more money. As I wrote in the AOW forums... it's like Michelangelo giving up his current works/interests and goes into becoming a tax collector because it's more money. If only they would have known what might have been.

[Endoperez]

I agree... the AOW series could have evolved greatly yet the devs lacked the vision. They now pursue an unpopular game because it brings more money.

If they get more money out of this "unpopular" title, it can't be unpopular. I think you're just angry because you don't have a PSP to play their game on.

Also, your metaphor sucks. It's more like Michelangelo going to the Vatican to paint the Sistine Chapel because a Pope wanted him to make something to show for huge masses of people who wouldn't know a chisel from a brush.

[Endoperez]

Sorry about the double post.

S.R. Kol, thanks for the forum link! That's great stuff. I especially liked how he described betatesting and its importance to the final game. That's really the first thing that really caught my interest.

Does anyone have any more detailed info about how the betatesting works? Is it straightforward "all preorders get to the beta", or is it something else?

[WraithLord]

I have pre-ordered yesterday. As far as I could tell there are two ways to preorder- either choosing to join the beta or not.

I've chosen not to join the beta as I prefer making rather then finding bugs :)

[Dragar]

I just pre-ordered, probably a rash decision but have to support people developing one of the very few types of games I want to play :)

[Epaminondas]

If they get more money out of this "unpopular" title, it can't be unpopular. I think you're just angry because you don't have a PSP to play their game on.



Yes, Triumph moved away from the AoW series, precisely because it was "unpopular" in terms of sales.

[DonCorazon]

I pre-ordered. Looks cool and like Dragar, I like to support my favorite genre.

Also, Gamespot has a preview up here (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/elementalwarofmagic/news.html?sid=6200601&om_act=convert&om_clk=picks&tag=picks;title;2). Pretty much the same material as others.

[Epaminondas]

I pre-ordered. Looks cool and like Dragar, I like to support my favorite genre.

Also, Gamespot has a preview up here (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/elementalwarofmagic/news.html?sid=6200601&om_act=convert&om_clk=picks&tag=picks;title;2). Pretty much the same material as others.

I am going to wait a bit before pre-ordering. In addition to the bad graphics (which isn't a huge a deal), I don't like the fact that the game will only contain 2 races.

[JimMorrison]

Well, it's VERY common this early in development for a studio to either only have definitive info on a small amount of their content, or to be intentionally saving a lot of it for later, to dribble out to you over the next year, or even some things as a surprise just before release.

[NTJedi]

I agree... the AOW series could have evolved greatly yet the devs lacked the vision. They now pursue an unpopular game because it brings more money.

If they get more money out of this "unpopular" title, it can't be unpopular. I think you're just angry because you don't have a PSP to play their game on.



Actually it is "unpopular" at least in replay value as their forums rarely have posts. The game received more money because the console games are more popular amongst the kids. They've chosen to keep making sequels because it pays NOT because it's a great game. On this note they've chosen money over producing quality... so my metaphor example was accurate in my opinion.

[Endoperez]

Actually it is "unpopular" at least in replay value as their forums rarely have posts. The game received more money because the console games are more popular amongst the kids. They've chosen to keep making sequels because it pays NOT because it's a great game. On this note they've chosen money over producing quality... so my metaphor example was accurate in my opinion.

My own opinion is that if you are trying to get your living by making games, you can't be too picky about what games you're doing, and I'm currently studying to be a game artist. One of the reasons I'd like to work for something/anything else than games is that game creation is often both boring and restricted.

Also, now that I checked what they're working at, I noticed that I know the new game you didn't like. I read a praising review of Overlord (PC, PS3, XBox 360) in a Finnish game magazine. The game had some gameplay problems, but it really did give that feeling of bullying your minions and being an evil mastermind. Wikipedia also said the same thing. It seems like it would be really fun to work in a game like that, even if it didn't make that much money.

And finally, wouldn't milking the same cow-game to the inifity (and beyond!) be more about "money over production quality"? Unless you know that they had enough (good, manageable) ideas to make a (better) sequel, I'll give them the benefit of doubt and presume that whatever they're working at is fun to make, and thus will get more work put into it, becoming better all the time.

[JimMorrison]

Actually, I'll just toss mine in..... I'd bet Overlord was "fun to make".

However, for me at least, it was pretty enjoyable to play for the first couple of hours. Beyond that point, the game becomes a bit open-ended, and you get to spend a lot of time running (slowly) back and forth, trying to figure out where there is something that you can do.

When you get frustrated with that, and find a Walkthrough just to tell you which mission to do next (you may have 5 available, but 3 of them may actually REQUIRE something from another you haven't yet done), then you might find that the whole game is actually very disappointing in scope.

It's fun at first, then it's disappointingly slow for how disappointingly small it is. It's truly a poor game that rather than just hang it up and come back to it later when I got frustrated, I just shook my head and deleted it.

Oddly, I still have AoW2SM installed on this machine. >.>


I think it's easy for a game like Overlord to get good reviews. Most reviewers don't play a game for a week before starting to type. If you can keep their interest for a few hours, and ignite their imagination as to how good your game COULD be, then people will make it look great. But really, how many people love it a year later? That is the test of popularity.

[vfb]

Did you ever try Black & White? Sounds kind of similar. I really wanted to like it, but eventually gave up on it.

[NTJedi]

My own opinion is that if you are trying to get your living by making games, you can't be too picky about what games you're doing, and I'm currently studying to be a game artist.
I would estimate about 5% of game developers are not trying to make a living by making games such as Illwinter. These are the developers which have the artistic heart instead of the greedy mind. From my understanding of TriumphStudios(AOW developers) they started with the artistic heart yet this has withered away.



Also, now that I checked what they're working at, I noticed that I know the new game you didn't like. I read a praising review of Overlord (PC, PS3, XBox 360) in a Finnish game magazine. The game had some gameplay problems, but it really did give that feeling of bullying your minions and being an evil mastermind. Wikipedia also said the same thing. It seems like it would be really fun to work in a game like that, even if it didn't make that much money.
The game lacked depth and replay value. I can go into details, but I'd prefer not drifting too far away from the original topic.


And finally, wouldn't milking the same cow-game to the inifity (and beyond!) be more about "money over production quality"? Unless you know that they had enough (good, manageable) ideas to make a (better) sequel, I'll give them the benefit of doubt and presume that whatever they're working at is fun to make, and thus will get more work put into it, becoming better all the time.
The AOW series was no where near its final stage of evolution so the sequels would not have been the same cow-game. The AOW-SM became such a smashing success because the developers were using ideas from suggestions of gamers... I help organize one of the main topics the developers were using. The community was bursting with ideas and begging for a sequel, yet Triumph lacked the vision to see AOW series proceed any further. The sad part of all of this is Triumph has chosen a new direction, yet it's clear the gaming community recognizes the Overlord game(s) have no value to stay on its forums... unlike the AOW series.
Considering Triumph builds their games for multiple gaming consoles it greater restricts development options as compared to development for only PC games.

[JimMorrison]

Did you ever try Black & White? Sounds kind of similar. I really wanted to like it, but eventually gave up on it.

Honestly, my experience with, and feeling towards Overlord almost exactly mirrors my Black and White experience, so you may be on to something. ;)

[mg]

actual 2 races x 6 factions per race = 12

http://forums.elementalgame.com/329355

also, sounds like i may be getting windows 7 in 2009 or 2010:

"Stardock is even toying with the idea of taking advantage of 64-bit machines, which allow in excess of 2 gigabytes of RAM, to support "huge, epic maps -- I mean, truly epic," Wardell noted.

"People play campaigns in Dungeons & Dragons in the real world that last for years. We could do that with 64-bit. We couldn't do it with 32-bit because you can't make the landmass that big -- that's been a big memory limitation," he claimed. "If someone wants to play a game that lasts for three years, who are we to stop them?"

[Gandalf Parker]

Sounds good to me. But then Im known for being addicted to large-map games.

[Tifone]

That's not the 50+ races of DomIII surely :(

This game looks promising but I'm realizing KO and JK spoiled me a bit :D

EDIT: Also, 2 pages manual! That's not definitively 300+... I hope so they're going for a game "easy to learn but difficult to master" as DomIII and not just for a simple game.
DOUBLE EDIT: Starforce and every-hour check requiring to be always online and to uninstall iTunes and cd-burning programs? I'm an honest gamer buying what I like, but I'm out of this :o
CORRECTION: The informations from the 2 edits above were a joke from the devs. Those guys are stupids. I like them :D (But of course still like KO and JK moooreee ;) )

[Zeldor]

I think it's fair to expect that big part of computer owners will have 4GB of RAM in 2010. DDR3 should be standard by then.

[sector24]

I'm kind of surprised that anyone would pre-order a game that doesn't even go into beta for 7 months. Then another 9 months of beta before the game is probably released. You're basically spending $50 on a promise of something that you might like to play at some point in the distant future.

Did I say surprised? I meant jealous. Hey guys I'm developing a game that combines the best features of Dominions 3, Master of Magic, the Age of Wonders franchise, the Total War series, AND the upcoming Elemental game. Should be released Q4 of 2015. Taking non-refundable preorders now. :D

[lch]

*throws money at sector24*

[mg]

"I'm kind of surprised that anyone would pre-order a game that doesn't even go into beta for 7 months. Then another 9 months of beta before the game is probably released. You're basically spending $50 on a promise of something that you might like to play at some point in the distant future."

actually, if you bothered to read the info you would know that your credit card is not charged until the beta is released in june 09.

[NTJedi]

actually, if you bothered to read the info you would know that your credit card is not charged until the beta is released in june 09.

I wonder what they do with individuals who use a credit card which expires in Mar 09. Nothing I need to worry about, but I'm sure the scenario exists.

[Gandalf Parker]

I'm kind of surprised that anyone would pre-order a game that doesn't even go into beta for 7 months. Then another 9 months of beta before the game is probably released. You're basically spending $50 on a promise of something that you might like to play at some point in the distant future.
Ive pre-ordered longer than that. I have no problem with providing some support for independent game developers. Heck I pre-ordered VGA Planets 4 in 2001 and Im still waiting for it.

[mg]

actually, if you bothered to read the info you would know that your credit card is not charged until the beta is released in june 09.

I wonder what they do with individuals who use a credit card which expires in Mar 09. Nothing I need to worry about, but I'm sure the scenario exists.

good question. perhaps the card you pay with has to have an expiration date of June 2009 or later.

[JimMorrison]

actually, if you bothered to read the info you would know that your credit card is not charged until the beta is released in june 09.

I wonder what they do with individuals who use a credit card which expires in Mar 09. Nothing I need to worry about, but I'm sure the scenario exists.

Even on the off chance that the web dialog would allow it, I'd go out on a limb here and guess that Impulse would not actually authorize you to DL the beta client, until your card had been successfully charged. So to sum up, they would do nothing, so would you. ;)

[lch]

Ive pre-ordered longer than that. I have no problem with providing some support for independent game developers. Heck I pre-ordered VGA Planets 4 in 2001 and Im still waiting for it.
Isn't it already available, according to http://home.comcast.net/~twisseman/vgap/v4home.htm ?

[Gandalf Parker]

Not technically. Ive never received my official copy.
Its been available as a beat for download for years. And everytime I ask about a release someone will say "download the beta and jump into the MP games". Personally I think thats a terrible way to learn the game.

Recently AIs have been added but are still badly implemented and hard to use. Plus docs and tutorials are woefully lacking.

But I think the biggest problem is that it has gone TOO FAR in development. It has so many features that its almost impossible to learn the game from scratch at this point. And they just keep adding more. Ive begun to think that it will never achieve a "release version" unless Tim bets help from someone like Shrapnel.

[Sombre]

I read a sort of preview of this game on gamestop and it was nonstop alarm bells ringing for me.

Not anticipating this one at all.

[WraithLord]

I read a sort of preview of this game on gamestop and it was nonstop alarm bells ringing for me.

Not anticipating this one at all.
Could you please elaborate?

[sector24]

You have a refreshing and ultra-rational approach to things, I too would like to hear why you're not interested.

Personally I think the game is starting to sound more and more like the fantasy version of GalCiv in which case I'll probably pass. GalCiv is great in its own way, but I don't think it has any replay value once you attain a certain level of competence. Same with Sins of a Solar Empire for that matter. A disturbing trend...

It's still too early to actually glean anything from the interviews and press releases though. Everything is still in the dreamtime phase where everything sounds "awesome" and no important design decisions have been revealed.

[Gandalf Parker]

I didnt find the comment surprising. And even with more info provided I wouldnt doubt that some people would not be interested. The good and bad of Brads styles of games tend to not be very impressive in areas of MP.

[licker]

You have a refreshing and ultra-rational approach to things, I too would like to hear why you're not interested.

Personally I think the game is starting to sound more and more like the fantasy version of GalCiv in which case I'll probably pass. GalCiv is great in its own way, but I don't think it has any replay value once you attain a certain level of competence. Same with Sins of a Solar Empire for that matter. A disturbing trend...

It's still too early to actually glean anything from the interviews and press releases though. Everything is still in the dreamtime phase where everything sounds "awesome" and no important design decisions have been revealed.

Agreed, GalCiv becomes utterly pointless once you have mastered a few tricks, and other than putting strict self imposed limits on yourself (and I'm not talking about cheese...) the games are just an exercise in waiting for the inevitable and then deciding what the quickest way to win is without actually having to do anything other than click 'end turn'.

That said, I will likely get this game at some point anyway, just because I like Brad's overall philosophy of software, even if I don't always enjoy the actual products as much as I think I should. Still I'm sure I'd get enough game play out of it to justify the purchase.

I just hope that the actually design the game to allow for a competitive AI, as opposed to the incredibly open design of GalCiv which makes it seemingly impossible to actually have an AI capable of defending or attacking reasonably.

I have the same problem with AoW, though at least there you have MP, but the SP is just... uggg... tedious and painfully boring once you get the basics down due to the sheer idiocy of the game design crippling any potential for the AI to actually be somewhat competitive.

Oddly to most people, MoO3 had the best design to allow for a competitive AI, even if the initial release had a craptastic aI, however, the modders have actually addressed most of its major shortcomings, so that game actually plays pretty well now, well, if you can accept the macro style of empire management...

[JimMorrison]

I read a sort of preview of this game on gamestop and it was nonstop alarm bells ringing for me.

Not anticipating this one at all.
Could you please elaborate?

Seriously, out what little we know, I'd be curious what looked out of place or wrong to you. :p


Re: Sector24 - GalCiv did peter out at some point, which made me sad. Recently I've just gotten back into Sins though, and I'm trying to wrap my head around what makes a good MP game for it. I know many people were really enjoying the MP aspect originally, and the game is only getting better - and while it doesn't pace itself for you, and get AS deep as Dominions, I'm discovering that the level of strategy is actually quite deep for an RTS.

I think that if a good 2 hour movie is worth $10, Elemental should end up well worth the $50 they are charging. ;)

[JimMorrison]

That said, I will likely get this game at some point anyway, just because I like Brad's overall philosophy of software, even if I don't always enjoy the actual products as much as I think I should. Still I'm sure I'd get enough game play out of it to justify the purchase.

Part of my reasoning as well. I want to see Brad's "approach" the industry succeed, and while so far Stardock hasn't made any of my "favorite games of all time", they have yet to totally disappoint me either.


I just hope that the actually design the game to allow for a competitive AI, as opposed to the incredibly open design of GalCiv which makes it seemingly impossible to actually have an AI capable of defending or attacking reasonably.

This one I don't get. As long as I could trade technology with people, I could keep my horse in the race, but at higher difficulties I don't see how you could ever be on top of the game, the AI just expands so fast, and produces so many ships all the time. Actually, it reminds me of how I feel about Dom3 SP. :P There reaches a point where one on difficulty setting, I can bulldoze the computer in my sleep, and on the next they just enact super-alliances that I can't find tactics able to defeat the 10-1 odds coming down on my head.


I have the same problem with AoW, though at least there you have MP, but the SP is just... uggg... tedious and painfully boring once you get the basics down due to the sheer idiocy of the game design crippling any potential for the AI to actually be somewhat competitive.

I love AoW2SM, for the game it is, and the world it contains. I'd still play it more, if you could auto-resolve battles and stay competitive in the game, but I find I have to manually play out every tactical battle, so as to absolutely minimize losses, and it just gets so annoying.


Oddly to most people, MoO3 had the best design to allow for a competitive AI, even if the initial release had a craptastic aI, however, the modders have actually addressed most of its major shortcomings, so that game actually plays pretty well now, well, if you can accept the macro style of empire management...

I thought I was the only one in the world that thought that MoO3 was pretty awesome. I almost cried when I played it far enough to see how broken it was, and then not long after, the "big patch" arrived, and fixed some things enough that the game it was could shine through the flaws that it had. Damn, now you're making me want to see if I can find that disk again..... Nice to have some variety in between Dom3 MP turns. :happy:

[sector24]

Re: Sector24 - GalCiv did peter out at some point, which made me sad. Recently I've just gotten back into Sins though, and I'm trying to wrap my head around what makes a good MP game for it. I know many people were really enjoying the MP aspect originally, and the game is only getting better - and while it doesn't pace itself for you, and get AS deep as Dominions, I'm discovering that the level of strategy is actually quite deep for an RTS.

Here's my problem with Sins:

If you play SP, all you have to do to win is throw pirates at the opponent. If you turn pirates off, it's still fairly formulaic. Killing the enemy capital ship causes the regular ships to route, so you can always win any fight without taking serious losses. Again, it's one of those issues where you have to impose severe restrictions on yourself to create a challenging situation.

MP is a whole different issue, the game is interesting from a meta-strategy standpoint, but the first player to slip up and lose their fleet is out of the game. There's no way to rebuild once you tech up your fleet size at the cost of your income. So 90% of the game is feinting and retreating for that critical battle in which you irrevocably cripple your enemy. Then you just have to mop them up.

Admittedly an oversimplification of the game, but I think you get the idea I'm trying to get across. It was definitely fun for 20-30 hours.

I think that if a good 2 hour movie is worth $10, Elemental should end up well worth the $50 they are charging. ;)

I must be radically more stingy with entertainment/dollar ratio because I don't think movies are worth it unless the huge screen and surround sound make the movie. I like a game where I can sink a good 40-300+ hours for my $50. ;)

[licker]

This one I don't get. As long as I could trade technology with people, I could keep my horse in the race, but at higher difficulties I don't see how you could ever be on top of the game, the AI just expands so fast, and produces so many ships all the time. Actually, it reminds me of how I feel about Dom3 SP. :P There reaches a point where one on difficulty setting, I can bulldoze the computer in my sleep, and on the next they just enact super-alliances that I can't find tactics able to defeat the 10-1 odds coming down on my head.


Well I've played it both with notech trading and with tech trading, and tech trading only makes it easier.

The point is that you can completely ignore building any war ships at all until you see someone has researched transports, and even then, if you have kept up your engine tech you just build some fast ships and pick off the AI transports when they do show up.

The AI was terrible at defending them, and terrible at hunting down your ships. So who cares if they have 100 ships and you have 10, they cannot take your planets and you will eventually out tech them (since you aren't wasting credits on ships) and be able to plow their fleets with a couple battleships or whatever you need to make to counter them.

Its also fairly trivial to keep on buying them off so they don't even DoW you, and then you just let them screw around with the other AIs while you tech up to some decent military techs and have a small fleet of FAST ships to deal with whatever you need to deal with.

Mostly my issue with the game is that space is completely open, and the AI cannot handle that strategically or tactically. You can yo-yo their fleets with your faster fleets, you can draw them out then jump their underdefended planets with your fast transports. You can Culture bomb them and they don't retaliate effectively.

Like I said, its cool to have alot of tools to use, but if the AI cannot counter them effectively then the game is pointless once you finish the initial set up for your end strategy.

I had this discussion with Brad waaaaay back when, and advocated that they move away from open space to node lines, or at least something which let the AI focus its fleets more easilly. He rejected it for what were good reasons to him, but ultimately the decision made it impossible for the AI to deal with your fleets. He admitted as much latter when I kept on asking why the AI seems to not see your fleets when it should. Well it turns out it saw them, it just had no way to actually process the threat they posed. So it continued to leave transports undefended, and leave planets open to lightning invasions by speed 20+ ships...

All of that would have been moot if the design forced you to use nodes or warp lines, or whatever.

And i've played GC2 on the higher difficulty levels, it makes no difference, just takes you a little longer to achieve dominance. Oh, you can play with different galaxy settings and such to make the game more or less challenging, but ultimately it always comes down to the same thing. The AI cannot handle its fleets, so once you finish your economy set up, and survive (nominally by paying off a neighbor not to attack you, which is dirt cheap compared to actually fighting them), you just pump out a few teched up war ships, conquer someone (if you feel like it), or use them as active defense while you go for culture or tech or alliance, or whatever vic condition you think is fastest.

[Omnirizon]

I could never bring myself to appreciate GalCiv; too many little things about it bothered me.

For that matter, I've never found a Stardock game I've liked. What do they lack? I can't put my finger on it. A certain wit, a certain satire, a certain soul. Too much cliche, not enough craftsmanship.

[licker]

Heh...

Even for my rant on GalCiv I still got my moneys worth from it, even it wound up in my uninstall and don't care if I lose the CD pile...

Oh, there's plenty of wit and satire in GalCiv, though I would agree that it may or may not be ones cup of tea.

Honestly, I don't care too much for any of that 'craftmanship' if the game mechanics are great, and if the game mechanics suck then no amount of craftmanship is going to make it interesting (basically ALL RTSs in my opinion...)

[Omnirizon]

AlphaCentauri = wit/satire/soul

GalCiv = flat/stiff/stupid

it had the game mechanics, but it didn't have much of anything else. If all I want is game mechanics I would just play Tetris.

[licker]

Different strokes for different folks...

Some people (though I'm not one of them) like the flavor of GC, but ultimately it comes down to is the game worth playing or not based on the underlying mechanics.

Tetris sucks horribly though, the mechanics are fatally flawed due to the fact that there is no 5 piece block!!!

;)

[Omnirizon]

don't be bad-talkin Tetris!!!

:p
;)

[WraithLord]

AlphaCentauri = wit/satire/soul

GalCiv = flat/stiff/stupid

it had the game mechanics, but it didn't have much of anything else. If all I want is game mechanics I would just play Tetris.

Well I like GalCiv. However I also had this kind of "boring, been there done that" nagging feeling when playing it. And I was like thinking while playing, hey you're supposed to have fun with this game what's wrong with you???

Anyway, that's why I never really got into it. Its nice and interesting and has the elements in place but something was missing that I can't put my finger on. Dunno, the "magic" maybe, the one that MOM had and dominions has.

Still there's a chance that elemental will not be a fantasy GalCiv spiritual clone, and even if it would be it will still be worthwhile just to run the campaign and more importantly to get an understanding of where FTBS stands as of 2k9.

[JimMorrison]

The AI was terrible at defending them, and terrible at hunting down your ships. So who cares if they have 100 ships and you have 10, they cannot take your planets and you will eventually out tech them (since you aren't wasting credits on ships) and be able to plow their fleets with a couple battleships or whatever you need to make to counter them.

I'm curious when you played GalCiv2? I didn't even try it until the release of the Twilight of the Arnor expansion, and my roommate bought it and told me I should check it out. It seems to me like now the problems that you describe are not as present as you portray them - the first being that the AI puts emphasis on military might in diplomacy, so not only are they more likely to view you as food if you put off building any ships, but it will cost more to convince them otherwise if you choose to stick with that method. Plus the dynamic between ship capacity, component cost, and engine speed, seems to make it an enormous money sink to go for the fast transport killer concept. At least, in all my tinkering, I never saw it as viable to even get your tech to the point you could have a 20+ speed ship with -any- weapons or anything else at all, without having produced some sort of mobile defenses (read: ships that can actually kill other warships) in the meantime.


I agree with you Omni - AlphaCentauri stands in my ranks of "favorites of all time", and I every time a new Civ version is announced (they made one for consoles? come on.....), I cry over it not being AC2.


For those of you who may not have tried Twilight of the Arnor, my roommate liked GalCiv2 from the beginning, and he says Twilight is an entirely new ballgame (and I believe him). There's tons of new content, and no 2 species play the same, etc. I found it to be a much better game than I am seeing described, where it sounds like dissatisfaction with the base game. ;) Anyway, my point being that if they apply the things that transformed GalCiv via Twilight, into the first build of Elemental, and then add to it in fun and interesting ways as it looks like they intend to, I think it should be a pretty cool game.

(Oh and I agree that $10 is a bit exhorbitant for a movie, I usually wait til movies hit the local theater-pub, where I can get movie + 2 pints of hard cider for $10. ;))

[licker]

My comments are based on GC2 and the 2 expansions. The core issue is that of the open movement system making it far too easy to exploit AI tendencies with small and faster fleets.

TotA plays like a different game because of some new rules for colonization and racial specials, but while it provided a nice little bump, once you get through the new mechanics the core is still the same.

Some people love it, I'm not one of those people. It's not a bad game, it's just not a GREAT game, and IMHO a badly flawed game from the movement system standpoint.

MoO3 got movement and map strategy so completely right it's a shame that the rest of the game was such a puddle of **** (well to most people) which killed anyone wanting to 'borrow' mechanics from it.

Sword of the Stars is another good one though. However, they really stripped down the empire management to bare bones so you don't really get the planet building fix most 4x games tend to provide. It's also horrendous at micro on large maps in long games.

[DonCorazon]

For that matter, I've never found a Stardock game I've liked. What do they lack? I can't put my finger on it. A certain wit, a certain satire, a certain soul. Too much cliche, not enough craftsmanship.

I totally agree with this sentiment.
I admit I have bought the GalCiv games and never played them much - they just have a kind of flavorlessness to them. I am probably a fool b/c I preordered Elemental but it seems like it could end up the same way.

Take a look at their video clip (http://forums.elementalgame.com/329963). Phrases like "the solders saw their extermination was at hand" to me sum up how Stardock games feel. They masquerade as classics like MOO2 but miss the sense of humanity. I mean, who talks like that?

[Zeldor]

If they aimed for the most boring trailer ever award they surely succeeded.

[Sombre]

Worst. Trailer. Ever.

[Tifone]

Totally agreed with Zeldor & Sombre :(

Meh, that turns me off. You don't have in-game sequences yet? That's ok! Don't worry! Just don't come out with a d*mn trailer! Wait till you have "something"! This says nothing and isn't intriguing or mysterious, is just... BORING :D I mean, someone really sees this and feels the hype growing?

Those sentences are totally naive too :re:

[lch]

A beautiful rendition of province names floating across the screen and blending in and out of images. We should reenact it with the Silent Seas map for Dom3. What?

[WraithLord]

Bad trailer. I'm starting to hear Sombre's alarm bells. I'm sure it would be a solid and well polished game (like GC), but I'm now less sure it will be able to break from the mainstream cliches.

[Meglobob]

The game is not due for release until Feb 2010 which explains the boring trailer, they simply have not finished enough content to produce a good trailer. I agree with Tifone in such circumstances best not to even attempt to produce a trailer.

The game will have excellent graphics when released and I expect it to be very, very good, perhaps even a classic of its type. I have alot of confidence in Brad and Stardock.

Brad has already said it will use a modern day PC to its limits, so will need a very high end machine to run.

[licker]

Brad has already said it will use a modern day PC to its limits, so will need a very high end machine to run.

I don't think that is what he said...

What he said is that they will code it so that if you have a modern machine the game will take advantage of that to allow for ENORMOUS maps.

Whatever.

Its far too early to be singing praises or slinging mud.

[Gandalf Parker]

So far we have enormous maps, non-linear play, and Brads historical capabilities with AIs. It sounds like a game I would like but that many others here would not.

[Sombre]

Whatever.

Its far too early to be singing praises or slinging mud.

I'd say it's actually far too early to be releasing trailers and taking pre-orders. During the interview with Gamespot you get the feeling that nothing he's talking about is actually in the game, because they haven't done anything yet. And the features /still/ aren't very exciting.

[licker]

You could be right, but Stardock has a history of doing things this way.

I don't really see the point in anyone getting very excited about it at all, but I'm sure you realize just how long people have been begging for a true MoM2, and maybe also that Brad had tried to acquire the rights to the name, and also that this has been in the works for something like 4 or 5 years.

Well some people are understandably over excited about not-MoM, but most of us will do what we always do and wait until there's some kind of actual product to judge rather than jump to any conclusions one way or another over some meaningless trailer.

I'm sure the game will not be for everyones tastes, what game ever is?

[sector24]

I'm curious how "end game, world destabilizing magic" will fit in with 64-bit mega maps. The only thing I can think of in Dominions terms someone 3000 provinces away casting Burden of Time. Is it really going to be feasible to teleport a sufficient army halfway across the world to try and stop that guy? It seems a little incongruous to me.

Also, what I took away from the "high end machine" comment was that they are using top end machines now to make the game, so that in 2010 you will need a 2008 machine to run it which is probably reasonable.

[Endoperez]

It could also be terraforming. Raising mountains around your cities, creating bridges over vast seas, etc. You know, stuff that would require lots of memory (i.e. 64-bit) to be feasible in a large map.

[JimMorrison]

Seriously, I think he was just implying that they wanted to implement late-game magic as something so powerful, that you don't so much counter it (fireball? but I am resistant to fire, haha!), but rather things become so massive in scale, that it just becomes a contest of godly carnage.

So while one person may be raining down comets on your lands, you could either counter him with 8.0 magnitude earthquakes, or maybe if you specialized in nature, you would focus on sprouting entire forests in your devastated areas, to boost your economy even as the destruction makes your opponents lands wither.

But yes, I'm sure the idea is things along the lines of BoT, Armageddon, Utterdark, Master Enslave, etc etc.


And I wholeheartedly agree that the release of that trailer can't help but be more detrimental than anything. I felt like I was in some really cool 8th grade English class "so can you use Exterminate in a sentence?" ..... but 8th grade English is anything but cool. I'd have sent them $10 just to have whoever made that trailer, spend the time on the game instead.....

[Tifone]

Guys, stop the dreaming or the awakening might be painful :re: We've all passed through that ;)

[Epaminondas]

Here's the inevitable thread at the Elemental forum comparing that game to Dominions III:

http://forums.elementalgame.com/330416

It quite contentious, as one would expect. Dominions III is the type of game that elicits passionate responses, whether for or against!

[lch]

What did they compare it with? The trailer that they released for the upcoming game, scheduled in 2010?
I've not seen one single person praising that trailer, in fact even people that were enthusiastic about the game didn't appreciate it.

[JimMorrison]

That thread is funny. The guy complaining about Shrapnel not sending him a new CD key even though they can verify the purchase, is hilarious.

I am not aware of a single gaming company that will send you a new CD-key. How do you prove yours is gone? Not like they know what key you had, and can deactivate it somehow..... Just pure comedy.

[S.R. Krol]

Yeah, I just don't see how you can start comparing the two games when for one game all your have is a possible feature list. But hey, it's the Internet, who says things people post have to make sense?

And really, why worry about comparing and contrasting? I'm sure their hard drives have enough room for *gasp* two games. Probably even more!

[JimMorrison]

Yeah, I just don't see how you can start comparing the two games when for one game all your have is a possible feature list. But hey, it's the Internet, who says things people post have to make sense?

And really, why worry about comparing and contrasting? I'm sure their hard drives have enough room for *gasp* two games. Probably even more!

Some of the new fangled high end machines can hold 4 or even 5 games at a time, but who can afford such technology? :shock:

[Tifone]

I'd like to underline the fun, in the 3ad Epaminondas brought to our attention, that the elemental guys are skinning each other alive after Dom3 :D and how our paladins are defending our fortress well (Omni, DC FTW) ;)

[HoneyBadger]

I'll say this in favor of Dominions3's low requirements and "primitive" graphics--I was able to play it for the first time in many, many moons, last night, because it'll run on a crappy, broken, 10 year old laptop. Woohoo!

As far as Stardock goes, they weren't even able to make freakin' GalCiv2, a science fiction game, without filling it chock full of Tolkien references, so I can only imagine how hopelessly generic their quality of fantasy will turn out to be.

[Tifone]

... in fact the good race vs evil race thing, even if divided in some factions each, makes my "OMGsostereotype" alarm ring and ring and ring... yet I repeat too soon to judge :D

[HoneyBadger]

Exactly. One of the big points of science fiction is that it can afford to be ambiguous about what's right and what's wrong, and make that ambiguity a central focus of theme and plot.

Who knows what's going to be right or wrong in the future?

On balance, fantasy can, and often does, offer us the comfort of taking away the guesswork.

The orks-by any other name-are bad, the elves-by any other name-are good. That's all we need to know. Just point your magic wand and shoot, and the gods will know their own. There lacks even the moral quandry of slaughtering the bad guys. The universe *itself* can, and often is, a moral place, in fantasy writing.

Myth, on the other hand, is seriously whacked in the head. What's good and what's bad in myth can be just as ambiguous as it is in science fiction, except that we're applying those questions of right and wrong to things that have already happened, that are happening, people that have already lived and died, and cultures that we may still find ourselves living in. Suddenly, there's an "oh #$%*, what did we do?" factor there, a banning from the Garden of Eden, some fire stolen from Olympus, or a few Christians roasting over an open fire.

Suddenly, it's not the worry of a hell we may someday find ourselves heading towards, but a hell we're already confined in, because-with myth-the very morals of the Universe not only do exist, but can shift like an angry sea, at a moment's notice.

That's the real difference between fantasy and myth-fantasy's like going off to vacation in a welcoming world of black and white, where paradise is at most a promise away. It's all a lie, but it's a beautiful, comfortable lie.

Myth, on the other hand, is where you live. And it's where everyone lives, all the time, even if you're a scientist. We never know for certain everything that's going on, and even if we did, 100%, we couldn't accept it all, completely. There's always a mythological element to the lives we live, and the world around us, and you can never escape that, except through fantasy. Myth may be an illusion, but it's a very real, very concrete illusion, like darkness existing as the absence of light. It may not be fact, but it's real, and it absolutely is Truth.

Fantasy, no matter how real it may seem, is always a lie.

[Gandalf Parker]

... in fact the good race vs evil race thing, even if divided in some factions each, makes my "OMGsostereotype" alarm ring and ring and ring... yet I repeat too soon to judge :D
That is another (*SIGH* Yet another on a list of many many many) things that Illwinter did amazingly well. How could anyone create a game using Fantasy, Mythology, Religious material and avoid the concept of good vs bad. Even for an old RPGer like me I cannot feel that nations such as Rlyeh, Ermor, Ctis represent evil. Or that Arcos, Pythium, Marignon, Man represent good. Yes those might be the most likely candidates for such but in thinking about it I am amazed that the end result is not that the game is painting one side or the other as good/evil but it boils down to a "the other guy is always the evil one" feel. :angel

[JimMorrison]

Well by using historical references, and cunning implementation, it becomes apparent, there are mostly two types of people in the world - those who believe they are good, and those who try to appear to be good. In either case, they tend to do some degree of bad things, and their success in hiding those things can vary greatly depending on their approach and execution.

There's a great irony to this. In thinking about it further, R'lyeh seems the most actually "evil" to me, in their approach. Which is funny, because Atlantis and Oceania seem to be their innocent victims for the most part - their EA incarnations are pretty unfettered by excessive weirdness, and they seem to take on less freaky traits in later ages, than other nations tend to.

But that's neither here nor there. Dom3 is just so far from bland or stereotypical. It really makes it look like Elemental will be the ANTI-Dom3. That is, they will focus most on what Dom3 skimps on the most - the UI, graphics, and AI. This will come at the expense of inspired and inspirational content. Will there be fun and interesting mechanics to play with? I'm sure there will be..... but what will you be able to do with those mechanics? Sadly, it seems the answer will likely end up to be "less than you can with the simpler mechanics of Dom3".

I want to imagine Elemental will be awesome (equally awesome to Dom3, on the plane of 'too awesome to compare to eachother'), just because I'm a huge fan of Brad Wardell himself, and his approach/philosophy to game design, and his business model. I actually want him and his endeavors to succeed, even more than I want Elemental to be the next big thing, because the promary reason I want Elemental to be good, is to validate Brad. :p

[lch]

... in fact the good race vs evil race thing, even if divided in some factions each, makes my "OMGsostereotype" alarm ring and ring and ring... yet I repeat too soon to judge :D
Weren't you the one who started the "which nations do you think most represent good/evil" thread? Which I didn't like too much... :re:

[JimMorrison]

... in fact the good race vs evil race thing, even if divided in some factions each, makes my "OMGsostereotype" alarm ring and ring and ring... yet I repeat too soon to judge :D
Weren't you the one who started the "which nations do you think most represent good/evil" thread? Which I didn't like too much... :re:

I think that was meant as more of a philosophical thing, since there isn't a clear black and white distinction in Dominions, that it's interesting to see how people digest the shades of grey. :p

[HoneyBadger]

Aboleths are by far the most amoral of all the Nations in the game. I don't care what anybody else has to say about it, it's a fact :) Above and beyond R'lyeh, Ermor, Mictlan, etc, Aboleths are a bunch of seriously cold bastiches.

Infact, morally speaking, in terms of sacrifice for the common good, and the way those sacrifices were historically treated (as sacred royalty, for a whole year), Mictlan might actually have the moral high ground, in the game, if we can assume that the same historical practices were going on, behind the scenes.

Ofcourse, they aren't *our* set of beliefs and morals.

And I don't find Marignon particularly good. Too oppressive, and too fanatical about maintaining that status-quo, to the detriment of their own people. Torturing and killing their own people over religious issues, and creating an environment of terror, isn't moral, no matter what they might represent.

Pythium, although you can speculate that they're religiously tolerant, isn't a lot better, since you'll note that they pit gladiators against hydras in their arenas, for mass entertainment purposes.

I've never thought of C'tis as having a particular moral status, but if they do, I'd guess it would lean towards good, since ancient Egyptians did everything they could to maintain and expand their society, to the benefit of their citizens. There was, ofcourse, a great division between the Haves and the Have Nots, but the people most empowered, the Pharaohs, were expected to dedicate their entire afterlife-the central theme of Egyptian culture-to defending the world against demons and destruction. They did ofcourse have slaves, but those slaves could themselves rise to high position, based on their abilities.

I can't think of a deciding factor for Arco, but it would probably depend on how well they treat their elephants--their greatest war asset. Considering ancient Greek society, I'd say Neutral. They had a lot of good things going on, and a lot of bad things. They definitely *did* have slaves, and the Spartans atleast treated them horrendously.

If we consider Late Age Ermor, you won't find a more democratic society in Dominions. Everyone becomes a lot more equal, once their dead. No racism, no torture or slaughter of their own kind, no religious intolerance, and they don't even blood-hunt, and they want to spread the benefits of their society to everyone--and their *are* benefits to being undead-to their neighbors.

Late Era R'lyeh is pretty evil, but they're evil because they're insane. It's not cold calculation, it's misguided fanaticism, perhaps brought on by desperation, considering that the Illithids *are* lost aliens trapped on the surface of the Dominions world. They're not E.T., but they're not Predators, either.

[Tichy]

Are LA R'lyeh insane, or are they making everyone else insane?
And elves are just as often represented as reclusive, xenophobic and unutterably arrogant as "good."

[HoneyBadger]

Elves=good, or atleast right-headed, but uppity, snotty, and arrogant, which perhaps has application to changing opinions about the Nobility in early 20th century Britain.

And certainly Illithids can *go* insane. If they used to live in the Void, and don't have a way to go back, then driving everyone else insane is just a form of terraforming.

[JimMorrison]

I really have to say, I'm very happy to have witnessed the animated "The Hobbit" when I was still in my formative years. Especially the way that they portrayed the elves as total bastards, it was great.

And I was including the Aboleths in my R'lyeh estimation. Personally I don't see a huge difference between the Aboleths and MA Starspawns - they're all brain sucking fishes. Late is a different beast all together, but that's just because we let some insane aliens rip a hole in the fabric of reality for fun and profit.


I can't even begin to imagine that the "factions" in Elemental will have half the actual personality of a Dominions nation. Maybe a third, I could conceive them getting that much life into them. I still think it could be quite good, just not directly comparable because it will be trying to excel in different areas than Dominions does. ;)

[Tifone]

@ Gandalf Parker, HoneyBadger, JimMorrison

While I wrote just a couple of lines you understood exactly what I meant, my congrats :)

@ Ich

Wasn't I. It's just in my signature as in fact I liked those threads very much, because they brought to the discussion the different opinions of players and eventually destroyed the assumption that there are definite good and evil races (like it is happening here and now once again) ;) A deep discussion that is the basis of what I said above about elemental. Illwinter really pampered us on this :D

PS: EA Agartha FTW of the totally good guys! (and here totally sinks my deep-cred with such a partisan assumption :D)

[NTJedi]

Here's a link to the developer diaries:

http://www.elementalgame.com/journals.asp

[NTJedi]

Okay some bad news guys... any multiplayer gamers which have been interested in Elemental:WoM may want to voice their opinion to Stardock regarding a sudden change.

http://forums.elementalgame.com/352655

Here is the statement from the above link of Elemental journals which has struck fear in hearts of ALL multiplayer gamers of the Elemental community:

================================================== ================

BRAD:

That said, here are a few things that multiplayer in Elemental will have:

1. Multiplayer games will be hosted by us. Period. No peer to peer. Not even hosted on the user’s box. Our servers. No ports, no proxies, nothing. We’re hosting it.

================================================== ================


Basically it means all Elemental:WoM multiplayer gamers MUST rely on the stability of each players ISP involved and the stability of the servers at Stardock for playing multiplayer games. I'm shocked such a sudden harsh decision was made from a company of developers who reportedly love playing Civilization_IV together... a game which clearly offers many multiplayer options and it's sad Elemental won't receive the same love.

[Zeldor]

And try to put user mods on official servers...

[sector24]

That is disappointing. Both the multiplayer options, the bot thing, and the delay. I always thought that they should take the data from online games to write a genetic algorithm bot that learns based on the behavior of successful humans. Gal Civ's Metaverse was the perfect vehicle for that. But it looks like they're not going to go down that route this time either.

[thejeff]

The bot thing seemed like a silly idea to me. AIs that join your MP games without telling you they're AI? Why?

[Baalz]

I think this is in reaction to the network issues they've been having with the game they just released, Demigod. I've got a 50% off coupon for that BTW, which I think brings it down to $20 if anybody is interested. Expires today.

I'm headed out for the night, here's the coupon code in case anybody wants it:
DG-MDRC-NSHL-KOAH

[Foodstamp]

Once I found out that it was going to be the spiritual successor of Master of Magic that is nothing like Master of Magic, I kinda lost interest. I will still pick the game up because it will be a fantasy TBS but with each new announcement I am a little more disappointed. As far as modding goes, I doubt most of the modding community are going to be expert 3D modelers :(. So we are going to have Mundania TBS, good humans vs bad humans RAWR RAWR RAWR.

[Zeldor]

I'm rather afraid it will be boring game with modding abilites far from our expectations. Well, I will wait some time before making my decision.

[llamabeast]

Brad Wardell frustrates me. He is awesome in many ways, but his games just somehow lack a bit of soul.

[Arcturas]

Llamabeast: SO TRUE! That is exactly what I think about nearly all the Stardock games I've played. Gal Civ was a great game, and actually lots of fun, but I just ran out of steam on it, where I'm still playing Civ 4. Gal Civ just...had too little character. Sins was even worse. I suppose it's an excellent multiplayer game, but singleplayer it had no life. Cool and all, but I just couldn't play it for long. No soul is perhaps the best way I've heard to describe it.

Is demigod worth it, Baalz? I'd like to give it a try but haven't heard a lot about it.

[Baalz]

I'm enjoying Demigod, but it's not for everyone. I'm not usually a big fan of RTS games, but marketing hype aside this really does have a lot more RPG elements than RTS. Imagine Diablo, only the whole game is scaled so you level all the way up from level 1 in a 30-45 minute game, spit everybody into two teams and try to kill each other's base. You don't build buildings or recruit units (though some heroes have minions they can summon) or collect resources other than exp and gold (mostly from killing stuff). I think it's pretty interesting the differences you can build into a demigod design - there are so many different options when you consider all the different types of items and skills you can buy that you kinda have to have a build in mind before you start the faster paced game (you have to know roughly which item you plan on buying first, etc. You don't have time to sit and consider the cost effectiveness of things durring a game). What I find really fun is playing the meta-game and building my demigods to go against how the other players expect. For instance taking the big lumbering living castle dude and getting a bunch of speed buffs and slow debuffs. People expect to run up, whack me, then retreat and heal to slowly wear me down and instead get "OH GOD HE'S RUNNING ME DOWN!!!" Ah, good times. Anyway, I find it a lot less "memorize the optimal build order and practice over and over again to shave a couple seconds off of it" that annoys me in most RTS games.

[DonCorazon]

his games just somehow lack a bit of soul.

Exactly!

[Calahan]

his games just somehow lack a bit of soul.

Exactly!

I've lost count of the number of times I've tried to force myself to like Gal Civ 2. Bought all the expansions, fully updated it etc. but there is just nothing about the game to like for me :( I must have played Masters of Orion 1+2 until the image of the screen had burnt itself into my eyes. I wanted so much to enjoy Gal Civ 2, but this so called spiritual successor to the MoO series just feels like a very hollow shell to me.

Stardock seems to be a promising outfit, but they have yet to produce a game that grips my attention for more than a few minutes. Pretty certain I'll pass on Demigod, and will certainly want to play a demo of Elemental before they get any more of my hard earned cash.

[NiknudStunod]

I had high hopes for the new fantasy tbs game but when I heard that there wouldn't be any actual fantasy races I lost interest. I have always avoided playing the human races in any fantasy game so this one sound just plain bland to me. I think I will stick with dominions 3 and fall from heaven 2 mod for civ iv.

[Makinus]

Of the games that Stardock sells, i think the best one today is Sins of Solar Empire, it is a really good strategy game, but the best think in it is the community mods... They really bring the game to life...

I also didn´t got involved in Galciv (both I and II) and think MOO2 is still a better game...

[Baalz]

his games just somehow lack a bit of soul.

Exactly!

I've lost count of the number of times I've tried to force myself to like Gal Civ 2. Bought all the expansions, fully updated it etc. but there is just nothing about the game to like for me :( I must have played Masters of Orion 1+2 until the image of the screen had burnt itself into my eyes. I wanted so much to enjoy Gal Civ 2, but this so called spiritual successor to the MoO series just feels like a very hollow shell to me.

Stardock seems to be a promising outfit, but they have yet to produce a game that grips my attention for more than a few minutes. Pretty certain I'll pass on Demigod, and will certainly want to play a demo of Elemental before they get any more of my hard earned cash.

Lol, I thought I was the only one. I thought everyone loved that game but it just felt so bland to me. I tried so hard to like it, it seemed in theory like a game I should really like but it felt like playing a spreadsheet.

[Calahan]

Lol, I thought I was the only one. I thought everyone loved that game but it just felt so bland to me. I tried so hard to like it, it seemed in theory like a game I should really like but it felt like playing a spreadsheet.

I can safely say that I've had far more fun playing around with spreadsheets than I ever have from playing Gal Civ 2 :)

[DonCorazon]

Funny, I did the same - threw good money after bad by buying expansions thinking that would liven the GalCiv games up. Never could get it into it - missing all the charm and soul of MOO2. Now I see the kingdom names, lack of fantasy races, etc in Elemental and it sounds like another big platter of rice cakes...unfilling and no flavor.

[Meglobob]

Well looks like I am an exception in this thread, in that I loved GalCiv2. There's nothing quite like playing on suicidal level on a gigantic map being attacked by 4 other races at once, desperately trying to survive in a very hostile universe.

Personally, many times playing the game its given me the, 'star wars' or 'Babylon 5' feeling of a truely epic space conflict.

Perhaps its the interface that gives the impression of no soul? But I would say its polished, slick, user friendly and very funtional. So functional and easy to use, you can run a 100+ planet empire before the game starts to drag. Running a 100+ province empire in Dom3 is certainly considerably alot more micromangement.

The tech tree contains alot of humour, the races have different, 'personalities' (different AI scripts), do you really not have any fun designing and redesigning your ships from fighters to mainline battleships? Then orgainising them into fleets, deploying those fleets for a first strike on a enemy empire? Or building up a massive economic and trade empire?

Surprised so many people don't like it!

I suspect Elemental will be equally polished, slick and user friendly with decent AI. I have not really been paying much attention to its development but have high hopes and I will be buying it once its officially released, personally not keen on playing alpha and beta versions.

[Calahan]

....do you really not have any fun designing and redesigning your ships from fighters to mainline battleships? ......

I know one of the major beefs I have with Gal Civ 2 is the severe lack of variety when it comes to ship building. Do I use weapon type A, B, or C. Oh I forgot it doesn't really matter because the opponent can just use shield A, B, or C to counter it. Call them missiles, bolts or whatever you like, it's still an actual carbon copy of paper scissors stone. And the early version was pathetic in that little ships over big ships was a no brainer, since even if a ship had all the firepower in the universe, it could only kill one small ship each round. It's better now, but still pretty awful IMO.

MoO was great in that department because you had to decide weapon arc, close range defence, enveloping weapons, heavy or light mounting. Good missiles choices, as you could decided whether it best to fire lots of missiles but for only a few rounds, or fewer missiles for many rounds. Troops boarding tactics, energy absorbing shields. Proper space combat where you had to decide if you wanted more powerful ships that turned slowly, or lighter fast turning ship, or just not bother with turning and have all weapons 360. Basically, a whole host of options to design any type of ship you like. Obviously there were optimum designs, but it was always a joy to re-design my ships in MoO. In Gal Civ 2 it's always just a case of "Extra miniaturization. Great. Now I can have 5 type A weapons instead of 4 type A weapons. How exciting."

One game I did find quite enjoyable recently was Starships Unlimited. It has a pretty unique combat system which I liked a lot, plus ship design that took me back someways to MoO days :)

[Baalz]

Yeah, my biggest beef with Galactic Civ was "ok I've now got +4 lasers instead of +3 lasers. Guess it's time to start researching +5 lasers so I can keep ahead of my opponents +4 shields..." Contrasted with Calahan's description of MOO (which is a pretty accurate depiction of how the game felt to me), it just felt very flat to me. Deciding to go with rapid fire shield piercing death rays or MIRV'ing ECM'ed missiles or tractor beams and boarding crews makes a pretty big difference in how your ships fight as opposed to generic weapon A, B, or C. Energy dampeners or shield capacitors? Point defense lasers, a lightning shield or good old ECM? Long range torpedoes or a bigger engine and point blank maulers? Punch through a section of the shield or go for enveloping weapons.

Damn, I think I might have just talked myself into digging up a copy of MOO2...

[P3D]

And in MOO2 you could even enjoy playing against Impossible AI (or whatever it was called) opponents with 400% resource bonus. I loved plasma cannons (they got really small as tech increased).

SEV(IV) is supposed to be similar, but the micromanagement... ugh...

[NTJedi]

Some good news about the multiplayer... looks like they've had some change of heart. I'm thinking the individuals who did send their concern made a difference. Looks like Hotseat and PBEM are not guaranteed yet... so anyone who enjoys those multiplayer aspects may wish to contact Stardock.

EDIT: June 2nd: {Developer Frogboy reply="4" id="2237359"}
PigeonPigeon:And not to be a pain, but could you shed a little light on whether LAN/Hotseat/PBEM multiplayer will be available? You made a lot of people concerned in your getting back to Elemental post.

Frogboy:
LAN almost certainly. Hot seat maybe. PBEM, not sure yet.

[Warhammer]

GalCiv 2 was a great game. Bob hit the nail on the head. I have never played another game in SP where I had 3 or 4 people go to war against me and actually be able to break up the coalition or be threatened with extermination. It was much different than Civ where eventually all the AIs team up against you "just because".

Regarding the weapons, I think there are several reasons for this:

1) It is much easier to make an effective AI when you are dealing with aggregate defensive and offensive values.
2) As a ruler, you really don't get involved with determining what arcs the weapons on your ships have.
3) It makes the game much easier as far as micromanagement in the late game.

[MaxWilson]

Regarding the weapons, I think there are several reasons for this:

1) It is much easier to make an effective AI when you are dealing with aggregate defensive and offensive values.
2) As a ruler, you really don't get involved with determining what arcs the weapons on your ships have.
3) It makes the game much easier as far as micromanagement in the late game.

My understanding is that from Frogboy's (i.e. Brad, the designer's) perspective, #1 is the reason. GalCiv was designed around the AI, and making tactical combat simple and symmetrical was the only way to make strategic choices computable for the AI. Imagine trying to create an AI that can predict combat outcomes for ships in MOO2 or armies in MOM or Dom3!

Unfortunately, it also makes the games flat and uninteresting for those who are more interested in playing with neat toys than in abstract strategy. I happen to be one of those who would rather have rich tactical options and an AI opponent which "cheats" around strategic choices by getting 8x my resources[1] than a world-class AI who can beat me every time at tic-tac-toe. Obviously I'd really like rich tactical options and an AI which doesn't NEED to cheat, but for me, the interestingness of my own armies is paramount.

-Max

[1] Being strategically clever is only necessary when you're dealing with scarcity. If you've GOT a bigger hammer you can just use it.

[thejeff]

The trouble with most of the "gets 8x resources" approaches to AI is that they usually wind up with an AI who's by far toughest if encountered early. 8x advantage is very hard to overcome when you haven't had time to use your strategic and tactical advantages to build production faster to offset the AI's mechanical advantage. Later, the AI will still get 8x the resources from each planet/city/province/whatever, but you'll have more of them to counter with. Starting out you've each got 1.

I haven't played GalCiv, but this seems to apply to most 4X type games. On the hard levels, if I get attacked by an AI early I get swamped, if not I win easily. I wonder if a progressively increasing multiplier for the AI would work better.

[MaxWilson]

The trouble with most of the "gets 8x resources" approaches to AI is that they usually wind up with an AI who's by far toughest if encountered early. 8x advantage is very hard to overcome when you haven't had time to use your strategic and tactical advantages to build production faster to offset the AI's mechanical advantage. Later, the AI will still get 8x the resources from each planet/city/province/whatever, but you'll have more of them to counter with. Starting out you've each got 1.

I haven't played GalCiv, but this seems to apply to most 4X type games. On the hard levels, if I get attacked by an AI early I get swamped, if not I win easily. I wonder if a progressively increasing multiplier for the AI would work better.

I don't think the 8x approach is a substitute for a good AI in a 4X game, it's just a substitute for the ability to do tactical analysis. Instead of being able to exhaustively analyze the outcome of a particular battle to decide whether you can engage his 34 missile frigates with your 4 dreadnoughts, just make some unrealistically-optimistic assumptions about the capabilities of 4 dreadnoughts vs. 34 missile frigates, but what you actually send into battle are 32 dreadnoughts.

That doesn't mean you don't have to know how to expand efficiently, but an AI which can't expand isn't going to do well even if you do dumb down combat to rock-paper-scissors.

Edit: to address your point about 8x being too much when encountered early, all I can say is "good point." Progressive does sound like a better idea in that light, unless the game starts at a point where the human already has a lot of tactical options (Advanced start in MOO2).

-Max

[BesucherXia]

I have played the second Galciv2 expansion as a beta tester (preordered it as soon as they started advertising), and was disappointed to find they had broken too many words like the version schedule. IMO they were delaying the game just because they focused on another title(Sin of a Solar Empire) while relying on the fans to improve the game for free. Almost every week people were complaining about the unplayable AI and the infamous bug that made their ships disappear, but its only near the end of the beta phase we saw they were finally fixing them.

I know that was reasonable for business, but when the game was finally released I had lost my interests, specially when I saw the minor bug I had noticed them months ago were still there after so many updates.(the in-game picture of an unique building is missing because they have misspelled the file name). Maybe they have blocked my gmail like spams, who knows.

Though I loved Galciv2, I have never checked their games since then. Prefer saving time for another MP.

[Dragar]

A focus on singleplayer gaming requires AI to be a top priority. I love Dom3 but playing SP bores me to tears. I just can't make muyself play past the early game

The devs here have clearly developed a game for mp only, which is fine, but if stardock want to sell a lot of copies they need to have a great AI, which isn't possible with Dom3 type complexity

[Gandalf Parker]

Ive known some complicated games that did decent with AI by making the AI moddable by the players. I think Dom3 (ok maybe Dom4) should have gone that route.

I think that any game developer should recognize the areas they are leaving light, and make those areas moddable.

[Kaffa]

dom3....the best TBS fantasy game.
what do you think about mod fantasy Fall from heaven 2 ? there's some likeness with elemental?

[Humakty]

I played a lot FFH2, and it suffers from the civ4 combat system : you make a ubber stack of doom with most of your units in it, and try to attack first, as fights are solved during your turn, the ennemy can't retaliate before his turn. It's the level 0 of tactics/strategy, but all the rest is quite nice if you enjoy civ4.
I don't know elemental, but the fights can't be that bad...

[Velusion]

Loved GalCiv2.

Frankly I don't get all the "MOO2 was so much better!" posts. It was a great game back in the day but I sense a lot of serial historical game romanticizing going on... (what?! on a Dom3 message board?!? OMG!)

[Calahan]

Frankly I don't get all the "MOO2 was so much better!" posts. It was a great game back in the day but I sense a lot of serial historical game romanticizing going on...

Hhhmmm not sure if that's a fair comment to be honest. I happily admit to having enjoyed older games much more than any new ones myself, but think I made some valid points about one of the major shortcoming of Gal Civ II (and there are several IMO) which others seem to agree with. So just saying we only prefer MoO over Gal Civ II because we are all old romantics isn't really a solid base to argue a point from. Even if we are actually all old romantics :)

[Baalz]

Hey V, good to see you around. Hope you hop in a a game or two! :) FWIW I dug up MOO2 this week and killed a day and half on it. Assault shuttle and nuetron blasters! Engine boosters and inertial stabalizers with shield capacitors! Tractor beams, emission guidance systems, plasma webs...still fun. :)

[Velusion]

Baalz: Unlikely I'll be joining any games... I really just check back every few months just to see if there is ever plans for Dominions 4. :rolleyes:

[RegnorVex]

There's no question that Stardock is hard at work on Elemental, he talks about it all the time in the Demigod forums.

Brad has had his hands FULL with problems on Demigod. It's a great action-oriented team mp game but it has had nothing but problems with online play and that's fatal for a team-oriented online mp game, so the game's had a rough launch. In a recent post he stated that most of the online problems are behind him now (I and many others would dispute this, but don't get me started) and as a result he is moving over to focus on Elemental, so it appears that the new game is going to get more attention now.

The reason, of course, for the emphasis on hosted servers is all these problems he's having with Demigod where players are wholly unable to figure out how to handle port forwarding, NAT, proxying, and all ther other complexities that are essentially required to understard in order to play online. It took me over a month before I could get my configuration to work online ...

[WraithLord]

PBEM doesn't require any such networking knowledge and is classical for TBS games. Granted, they should be designed with PBEM in mind. I posted early in elemental development a suggestion to allow PBEM. I think the players liked it (it got positive responses) but it was totally ignored by the devs. A shame if you ask me.

[Sombre]

Baalz: Unlikely I'll be joining any games... I really just check back every few months just to see if there is ever plans for Dominions 4. :rolleyes:

This is a shame, I heard nothing but good things about you from other players. Perhaps you'll come back to dom3 and try something fresh at some point (new gametype, nations etc)

[NTJedi]

The reason, of course, for the emphasis on hosted servers is all these problems he's having with Demigod where players are wholly unable to figure out how to handle port forwarding, NAT, proxying, and all ther other complexities that are essentially required to understard in order to play online. It took me over a month before I could get my configuration to work online ...
I hope Elemental will allow LAN and Hotseat for those who enjoy multiplayer within a single household. Also PBEM should be easy to setup within Elemental as long as it uses auto_resolve for the battles.
I know there's talk about allowing the game to be pushed back to August of 2010 allowing more testing and more game content... which most of the community(myself included) seems to approve.


There's no question that Stardock is hard at work on Elemental, he talks about it all the time in the Demigod forums.

Yes, I believe it's being presented at PAX... new screenshots on the game websites.

Also I recently created a poll where Stardock is uncertain how to handle the children from vassal marriages. I'm hoping some of the community can share their opinions on how Stardock should handle this feature.

http://forums.elementalgame.com/362345