Flaming Arrows

[jimkehn]

Does flaming arrows work on Androphag poison arrows???

[Sombre]

I doubt it. For it to work KO or JK would have had to set the 'poison bow' weapon to work with it.

[llamabeast]

No, it doesn't, sadly.

[Tifone]

"Sadly"? To me it is already powerful as it is, with its controversial "i-bounce-off-of-your-shield-but-you-are-full-poisoned-anyway" arrow effect :sick:

[JimMorrison]

"Sadly"? To me it is already powerful as it is, with its controversial "i-bounce-off-of-your-shield-but-you-are-full-poisoned-anyway" arrow effect :sick:

But Sauromatia has no natural access to Fire magic. I went to a bit of trouble in a current game to get Fire Arrows cast for one of my armies - not because I wanted to uber stack poison+fire, but because my opponent was mostly undead, and I wanted to switch from poison, TO fire. ;) But, it didn't accomplish much.

[Omnirizon]

I think we should rename the spell to "Alternative Lifestyle Arrows", or perhapse "Non-Heteronormative Arrows"

"Flaming Arrows" sounds very pejorative, like something intolerant straight arrows might say.

[licker]

Have you ever tried to shoot a non straight arrow? They always seem to wind up biting you in the ***...

[Omnirizon]

Have you ever tried to shoot a non straight arrow? They always seem to wind up biting you in the ***...

*ba-dum* --highhat


actually, I think the arrows would rather be called flaming, the PC significations imply non-normalcy and end up categorizing those arrows as "poisoned"; and as is stated above, poison arrows can't be flaming (or at least they vehemently deny it).

[Tifone]

Every single line of this thread has made me older :hurt:

Btw, doesn't Sauromantia have even another kind of national archers, non poisoners, to use for Flaming eventually? :)

[Nikelaos]

yes they do which is why it puzzles me that you don't just stop making androphags and move on to the other (cheaper i think) archers.

[Sombre]

But he already has lots of andros, I presume.

If flaming arrows did work with them it would probably overwrite the poison secondaryeffect.

[Edratman]

The spell flaming arrows actually does not make "flaming arrows". What it does it change weapons to the following weapons (copied from Edi's data base):
301 Fire Bola
302 Fire Bonds
215 Fire Boulder
425 Fire Boulder
217 Fire Bow of War
80 Fire Brand
61 Fire Breath
225 Fire Breath
406 Fire Chakram
356 Fire Composite Bow
213 Fire Crossbow
48 Fire Flare
209 Fire Javelin
212 Fire Long Bow
211 Fire Short Bow
407 Fire Shuriken
210 Fire Sling
405 Fire Small Bow
76 Fire Sword
350 Fire Flare

These weapons have the flaming arrow effect. The poison bow, obviously, does not have a "Fire" weapon equivilent.

[Gregstrom]

I'd go with flaming arrows overwriting the poison secondary effect - it seems reasonable that the fire would burn off the poison or some such.

[Psycho]

I concur. The spell should replace poison bow with fire (short?) bow.

[Nikelaos]

fire boulders?

agarthan hurlers ftw.

[Omnirizon]

fire boulders?

agarthan hurlers ftw.

Disagree. The spell's effectiveness is its invariable scale; it effects each missile the same, regardless of the missile. Therefore, the more missiles in the air, the better.

Small Bow FTW.
gogo markata flaming archers. Too bad no markata able nation has natural access to fire magic...

Slingers are a close second.

[Nikelaos]

ah well, a death bless will have to do, you do seem to be right markatas shall own.

[Psycho]

Too bad flaming arrows doesn't work on markatas

[Omnirizon]

Too bad flaming arrows doesn't work on markatas

Edratman says:
...
405 Fire Small Bow

is this not markata weapon?

[Psycho]

Too bad flaming arrows doesn't work on markatas

Edratman says:
...
405 Fire Small Bow

is this not markata weapon?

Maybe Edratman is mistaken or Edi's database is mistaken or the weapon exists but it is not applied to markatas. Anyway markatas don't get the benefit of flaming arrows. Unfortunately.

[thejeff]

I think it is, but what you'd really want is Fire Sticks and Stones.

[Omnirizon]

I think it is, but what you'd really want is Fire Sticks and Stones.

no, markata archers get the small bow... but apparently it isn't a fire weapon, or at least not for them

fire sticks and stones would be interesting now... maybe some flaming fling poo

[Edratman]

I just copied the "Fire" weapons from the data base. I see that I managed to copy "Fire breath". I think that is the upgrade from "twelve pack of Old Milwaukee and 7 shots of tequila" breath. :D

[Edi]

The small bows are supposed to get the flaming version, but apparently there's a bug in the spell so that it's not included.

[Tifone]

I'm against giving the Flaming Arrows option to Androphags, personally. As they have so much a bonus with their poison, at least for they "specialization" they should give up some versatility, so there is a use for the other kind of archers, less powerful but more versatile.

[chrispedersen]

Flame arrows really wouldn't be (much) of an upgrade if any.
Their poison arrows damage even if they don't 'hit.' making them veeeery effective against heavily armored targets. Flame arrows wouldn't.

[Tifone]

Yep chris, but the thing was about being even able diversify their power to be able to re-use Androphag archers against poison-immunes too.

As they're really good against everything which isn't poison immune (or just regenerates fast as hell), making them potentially worthy even against them seems unbalancing to me.

[chrispedersen]

Hey Tif, are you getting that flame would replace poison?
I'm not sure I would consider that an upgrade.

[SlipperyJim]

Yeah, the "realistic" option for fiery Androphag arrows would be for the poison to be consumed in the flames. In other words, flaming arrows would replace poison arrows, not add to them.

Then again, it seems a bit silly to mention "realism" when discussing a game that already includes flesh-eating giants, demon monkeys, Squid from Beyond the Stars, and Tartarians. ;)

As it is, I think that the current situation sounds fine to me. It's not like Sauromatia is lacking archers! They can just recruit a bunch of guys with composite bows at the nearest fortress....

[Tifone]

chris,

I am getting this.
You are not getting that versatility is an upgrade. Sauromantia could turn the vast poison archers armies they used for early expansion, into vast FIRE archers armies as soon as the enemies start fielding poison immunes to counter them. Shouldn't they at least need to replace the Androphag archers with the non-poison ones to have this opportunity?

Slippery,

can't agree that we shouldn't discuss realism :) The relationship about realism and fantasy in the game was long discussed anyway in the first thread about poison arrows by Sombre IIRC.

[Psycho]

Sauromantia could turn the vast poison archers armies they used for early expansion, into vast FIRE archers armies as soon as the enemies start fielding poison immunes to counter them. Shouldn't they at least need to replace the Androphag archers with the non-poison ones to have this opportunity?


No. Those arrows should be able to burn like any other arrows. From the balance perspective, they are certainly not overpowered in EA.

[Nikelaos]

fact of the matter is you have other archers to buy, they aren't massively expensive so just get some of them to cast flamming arrows on.

the other fact is snake poison(they should be practicly milking it of those hydras) doesn't burn.

snake poison is made of water (doesn't burn) and peptide toxins (protein polymers, like plastic but not as complex - also doesn't burn)

burning is caused by respiration (oxygen + fuel = energy + waste materials), our bodies do it all the time to create energy (heat included) but we need glucose (which if not burned turns into fat which can be burned) to burn, we can't burn protein.

so yeah poison don't burn or more they do but at such a massive temperature that the aura of heat would burn to death the archers firing the arrows.

the poison burns of - MYTH BUSTED

[vfb]

No, the Sauromatians are using poison oils extracted from a plant (herbus maximus toxicus) growing in the Sauromatian swamps. In fact, it is the Hydra's consumption of these poisonous plants that gives them their poison gas aura.

The oil is quite flammable and when burned releases additional toxic vapors.

Not only that, the Flaming Arrows enchantment causes missiles to ignite a short moment after they are launched into flight. Otherwise even normal arrows would just burn up in their quivers.

[jimkehn]

Jeez......sorry I asked!!

:D

[SlipperyJim]

No, the Sauromatians are using poison oils extracted from a plant (herbus maximus toxicus) growing in the Sauromatian swamps. In fact, it is the Hydra's consumption of these poisonous plants that gives them their poison gas aura.

The oil is quite flammable and when burned releases additional toxic vapors.
Nicely done. :up:

Of course, one might ask: Why don't the Androphag archers poison themselves with their own arrows? You know, the occasional mishap, pricking a finger on a sharp arrowhead, and then DEATH. Why doesn't that happen? The answer is obvious.

Hydra-skin gloves.

Wait, wait, wait ... how do the Androphags get close enough to the hydras to skin them for gloves? That answer is even more obvious.

Hydras shed their skins, just like snakes.

Androphag gathering parties go out into the swamps and gather discarded hydra skins. Then they make archery gloves (http://www.3riversarchery.com/Thumb.asp?c=1&s=41&p=0) out of the skins. They give those gloves to the Androphag archers who use them to protect their hands from nasty poisoned arrowheads.

...

Now, the life cycle of a Bog Beast is fascinating. All of the Bog Beasts which respond to summoning rituals are actually females. The male Bog Beasts are shy and reclusive creatures who dwell in the deepest parts of subtropical swamps. When a female Bog Beast begins her estrous cycle, she must sniff out the male via her tremendous proboscis. She follows an elusive trail of pheromones until she finds a suitable mate. Then the courtship ritual begins.... :censor:

[Gregstrom]

snake poison is made of water (doesn't burn) and peptide toxins (protein polymers, like plastic but not as complex - also doesn't burn)

so yeah poison don't burn or more they do but at such a massive temperature that the aura of heat would burn to death the archers firing the arrows.

the poison burns of - MYTH BUSTED

Pardon me, but proteins are affected by heat and can burn. Look at a burnt steak, for instance. Some peptide toxins don't even need to catch fire to be deactivated by heat - normal cooking temperatures of ~70 degrees C do the job nicely.

[vfb]

Oh oh oh ... I wanted to hear more about the Bog Beasts. Rumor has it there are scantily clad ladies involved too! Or was that just some sort of not-so-subliminal advertising campaign trying to get me to watch the Bog Beasts special on Animal Planet...

[Sombre]

Water doesn't burn eh?

I learn something new every time I come here.

[chrispedersen]

chris,

I am getting this.
You are not getting that versatility is an upgrade. Sauromantia could turn the vast poison archers armies they used for early expansion, into vast FIRE archers armies as soon as the enemies start fielding poison immunes to counter them. Shouldn't they at least need to replace the Androphag archers with the non-poison ones to have this opportunity?

Slippery,

can't agree that we shouldn't discuss realism :) The relationship about realism and fantasy in the game was long discussed anyway in the first thread about poison arrows by Sombre IIRC.

I get it .. I just don't agree with it. Sure, its nice to be able to turn a poison archer into a fire archer.
But you're turning an expensive archer into the equivalent of a cheaper archer.

I just don't think thats the biggest balancing act thats out there. Compare the problems of MA-Man, Oceania, EA-Yomi, ... there are much bigger problems.

[sum1lost]

fact of the matter is you have other archers to buy, they aren't massively expensive so just get some of them to cast flamming arrows on.

the other fact is snake poison(they should be practicly milking it of those hydras) doesn't burn.

snake poison is made of water (doesn't burn) and peptide toxins (protein polymers, like plastic but not as complex - also doesn't burn)

burning is caused by respiration (oxygen + fuel = energy + waste materials), our bodies do it all the time to create energy (heat included) but we need glucose (which if not burned turns into fat which can be burned) to burn, we can't burn protein.

so yeah poison don't burn or more they do but at such a massive temperature that the aura of heat would burn to death the archers firing the arrows.

the poison burns of - MYTH BUSTED

Nikealos, I hate to break it to you, but protein can be burned. Our bodies convert protein to fuel all the time, as it really isn't that hard to oxidize. I'm not sure where you got this information, but I've studied protein oxidation pathways at the molecular level in both biology and organic chemistry classes. If you really want, I can point you to some texts that explicitly spell out how to burn protein.

One simpler way is to burn a steak. Said steak is composed of primarily lipds, proteins, some acids, random solutes, and water. When it gets hot, the water evaporates out, but the organics oxidize quite handily.

[SlipperyJim]

Water doesn't burn eh?
Lies (http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/06/dayintech_0622)! :D

[Edratman]

Water doesn't burn eh?
Lies (http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/06/dayintech_0622)! :D

If you ever saw my water bills you would think I'm burning it up. If not, what else am I doing with it, pouring it down the drain?

[Herode]

I wonder what I am missing here : I have a Bakemono Sorcerer scripted with : Blessing, Fire Power, Flamming Arrows. Blessing & Fire Power are cast. The mage is now F4, fatigue 23. He has been provided with 10 Fire gems. But on turn 3, he casts... Raise Dead.
Why is that ?

[calmon]

I wonder what I am missing here : I have a Bakemono Sorcerer scripted with : Blessing, Fire Power, Flamming Arrows. Blessing & Fire Power are cast. The mage is now F4, fatigue 23. He has been provided with 10 Fire gems. But on turn 3, he casts... Raise Dead.
Why is that ?

Maybe the opposite forces are too weak for the AI to invest gems? There are some AI calculations regarding gem use in battles.

[Herode]

Hey, could be the case !! I expected to meet a huge ennemy force but the guy withdrawed and the only opponents were a very small 1-2 points PD.

I didn't know tha IA was computing such parameters but that's cool. It saved me some precious gems :)

[MaxWilson]

Yep. If you want to find out for sure, plop down a huge enemy force on turn 1 of the battle replay and see if it changes his behavior.

-Max

[lch]

If you ever saw my water bills you would think I'm burning it up. If not, what else am I doing with it, pouring it down the drain?
Do you enjoy flushing the toilet as a hobby as much, too?