Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!

[vfb]

I see this page http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom3/dom3progress.html has been updated.

Looks like some balancing happened to Hinnom. Size 5 chariots! I like that, those horses never did look all that big. And a whole other bunch of Hinnom changes.

And ... drum roll please ...

- R'lyeh dreamlands suffered from the same problem as Ermor once did. Dom-kill rate now multiplied by 5.

:eek:

[Gandalf Parker]

I did notice that on the way in this morning, but thanks for posting about it.

The one I liked was this one..
* Shape changing could result in incorrect magic item loss, fixed.

[Nikelaos]

ah finally the action of cooking villagers in a big pot of stew has a bad affect on the feelings of people.

[Executor]

Bad news for R'lyeh too.

[Sombre]

I don't think anyone is going to complain about Rlyeh getting some sort of nerf. It had gotten to the point where they were routinely banned from games.

[Herode]

The one I liked was this one..
* Shape changing could result in incorrect magic item loss, fixed.
+1 :D

My Dragon pretender in Victoria lost 2 Horned helmet with with that bug.

A little OT maybe, but I wonder if shape changing causes a morale check or something like that since my dragon SC routed on round 2 just after he changed his shape :hurt:

[SlipperyJim]

The Melqarts went from 2B to 3B, and the Ba'als went from 3B to 2B.

On the surface, that looks like a nothing change, but I think it's actually a micro-nerf. It makes the Melqarts a slightly less-obvious choice for SC, and means they might spend some time in the lab, so you can't specialize quite as much as before.

The Dawn Guard went to 45 gold, but Edi's database already listed it as 45 gold? Error in the database, or error on the Progress page? Anyway, increasing the cost of the Dawn Guard probably makes sense, because they were very good for the price.

Ba'al eat Melquart event reversed
Does that mean that Melqarts will eat Ba'als now? Fascinating.

The other nerfs are pretty hard to argue. In fact, they look highly appropriate. Even with these nerfs, I think that Hinnom will remain a strong nation ... and that's a good thing. :)

[Amhazair]

I totally agree that R'lyeh could do with some balancing, so I'm not really going to complain. I will want to see how fast a 5 times faster domkill will actually depopulate you. Thematically I never envisioned R'lyeh as leaving totally empty wastelands behind, but rather that you would see a diminished population grieving over their relatives who went mad and marched of to follow the dream. I wouldn't really like to see R'lyeh having tons of 0-population provinces.

The Hinnom changes are looking good, and the mod commands from the previous update (which I apparently missed) also look like they could be really intresting for the modders among us. (And thus also for everyone without intrest in modding who does like to use mods. :))

A little OT maybe, but I wonder if shape changing causes a morale check or something like that since my dragon SC routed on round 2 just after he changed his shape :hurt:In what direction did you shapechange? If it was from Dragon to humanoid (the less obvious choise I guess) It might just have brought you under the autorout hp limit?

[K]

I'll miss the Wish bug being fixed. I always thought it was a neat way to bone large games.

[Poopsi]

Thematically I never envisioned R'lyeh as leaving totally empty wastelands behind, but rather that you would see a diminished population grieving over their relatives who went mad and marched of to follow the dream. I wouldn't really like to see R'lyeh having tons of 0-population provinces.

I dont see it as really killing everyone. I see the population loss as signifying that those provinces no longer have regular humans, because they have either been murdered by void cults or void beings, joined void cults, or mutated into horrible creatures. In any of those scenarios they are basically irretrievable as population, and are simply part of the dreamlands. (My own thematic take)

[HoneyBadger]

I agree, Poopsi.

Actually, I think it would be great if LA R'yleh changed pop types. It would be a lot of work, but how cool would it be if every independent unit under R'lyeh transformed into something squishy?

[Amhazair]

Thematically I never envisioned R'lyeh as leaving totally empty wastelands behind, but rather that you would see a diminished population grieving over their relatives who went mad and marched of to follow the dream. I wouldn't really like to see R'lyeh having tons of 0-population provinces.

I dont see it as really killing everyone. I see the population loss as signifying that those provinces no longer have regular humans, because they have either been murdered by void cults or void beings, joined void cults, or mutated into horrible creatures. In any of those scenarios they are basically irretrievable as population, and are simply part of the dreamlands. (My own thematic take)Ah, well, I suppose I can live with that rationalisation, if push comes to shove.

Anyways, to steal from Micahs reply in the other threat: "Rlyeh is only .1% per candle, so growth will cancel out 6 candles worth of dom, and be no worse than taking 2 death picks even in max dominion" So that would be .5%/candle after patch, or a max of 5% per turn. I'm curious as to how it will play out.

[Sombre]

On the other hand, they could simply be sucked into the void.

VOOOOOIIIIID

[HoneyBadger]

Maybe in the late game there could be some expensive ritual spell that puts a Void Gate in every R'lyeh province with 10 candles-at the cost of say 50% population in all R'lyeh provinces with 5 or more candles. The whole world could get sucked into the Void.

[konming]

With R'lyeh domain killing rate like that, most dreamland freespawn should have 0 gold upkeep. Otherwise, a R'lyeh play will simply go broke very soon.

[Gandalf Parker]

Works for me. Not so much that there is a huge drop in population, but a definite drop in the productive population needed to support a province properly with food and taxes.

[ano]

In my opinion, it is a very serious nerf for R'lyeh. Unlike Ermor, they REALLY need that gold as all mages are very expensive and so is research. x5 multiplier is a bit much, imho. I can't say for sure but I strongly suspect that this change will cripple your economy much earlier than the late game when R'lyeh really starts shining. All that chaff is nearly useless unless properly buffed.
It may sound very strange but this change may very well turn the undoubtedly strongest nation into the unplayable one. You may say that I'm exaggerating the effect of this change but my words are only based on my experience.

[HoneyBadger]

I think we'll have to wait and see how things work out. Eventually, I suspect that every Nation is going to go through the filter of mods like CBM and Worthy Heroes, so a nerf on one hand is a chance for more creativity on the other hand.

[thejeff]

Is this really 5 times the stated rate or is it, like Ermor, they weren't dying as fast as they were supposed to, so it's being fixed by boosting it to the stated rate?

[Edi]

Is this really 5 times the stated rate or is it, like Ermor, they weren't dying as fast as they were supposed to, so it's being fixed by boosting it to the stated rate?
Being fixed to what it was supposed to be.

[Tifone]

Hinnom popeaters now give some unrest, that's great :) now people don't jump happily into their open mouths anymore :D

[K]

Hinnom popeaters now give some unrest, that's great :) now people don't jump happily into their open mouths anymore :D

But the solution is still the same: find a tiny province and put them there so that a crap province dies instead of a good one.

But, now they are even better at raiding since they do more damage when they can't hold province, giving then the ability to create unrest so that when people take those provinces back they get less income.

[Zeldor]

Hinnom nerf does not look like enough to solve the problem. They still have recruitable SCs, broad magic, blood magic, unique summons, powerful chariots [one less size really won't change almost anything, especially in EA]. They must become a banned nation for EA games.

[Aezeal]

Hmm I think it will get them back in the range of regular powerfull nations though. After the changes I really doubt wether they are that much more powerfull than say Lanka or Niefelheim

[Gandalf Parker]

It would seem to fix Hinnom quite abit as far as solo play. It took care of most of the things that the AI was able to use effectively.

[Sombre]

I don't think people had actually agreed that Hinnom was any good at all as an AI nation. I think the unrest causing is going to seriously weaken them as an AI nation now, anyway. Expect their cap income to drop real quick.

[Tifone]

K,

maybe, but now to use them efficently you need even more micromanagement and you lose more gold while you move them. It helps I think. :)

[HoneyBadger]

Also, it seems to me that you'd better consider putting them in more than one crappy province, because a bunch of expensive giants grouped in one place together-to me-says "nice target for ritual magic".

[Zeldor]

They are immune to most of remotes [like other giants].

[Psycho]

Also, it seems to me that you'd better consider putting them in more than one crappy province, because a bunch of expensive giants grouped in one place together-to me-says "nice target for ritual magic".

Which one?

[WraithLord]

"* Events proof read and fixed "

What's that?

[Aezeal]

All of the ones that targets troops in a province :D

Rain of Toads, Leprosy, Melancholia, Fires from Afar, Flames from the Sky, Muredering Winter are especially bad on grouped armies and regular assasination spells are options too of course.

On the other hand Honey, if all grouped in one province you could more easily protect them with a dome, late game that might be the better option (less provinces dying, if you have several large stacks you'll might want to protect them all anyway, possibly less microing.)

[Zeldor]

Yeah, right. Remote damage spells against giants with resists. Maybe if you have few hundred gems to waste on few giants...

[Psycho]

Fires from Afar, Flames from the Sky, Muredering Winter etc. cannot kill giants. I guess leprosy or beckoning could work.

[Endoperez]

Yeah, right. Remote damage spells against giants with resists. Maybe if you have few hundred gems to waste on few giants...

Leprosy. :up::D

[Sombre]

In my opinion, it is a very serious nerf for R'lyeh. Unlike Ermor, they REALLY need that gold as all mages are very expensive and so is research. x5 multiplier is a bit much, imho. I can't say for sure but I strongly suspect that this change will cripple your economy much earlier than the late game when R'lyeh really starts shining. All that chaff is nearly useless unless properly buffed.
It may sound very strange but this change may very well turn the undoubtedly strongest nation into the unplayable one. You may say that I'm exaggerating the effect of this change but my words are only based on my experience.

While I think rlyeh's freespawn should have their goldcost for upkeep purposes taken to 0 gold to compensate, I also think Rlyeh needed a /serious/ nerf. They were reckoned to be the strongest nation in LA by far, if not the game. They're extremely difficult to invade, they get free troops and potentially horrible summons, they have great magic and their dominion pretty much hurts others as much as them. This just forces them to be a little bit more aggressive, rather than turtling and winning the game through weight of astral. At least I believe it will. We'll see I guess.

Happy they were nerfed a bit though.

[Zeldor]

Leprosy and beckoning have MR checks. Even if you get with some leprosies through, you can just hope for some minor afflictions on giants [and they can always put Shrouds on to get regen working all the time, which may stop getting any of them at all].

[Zeldor]

Sombre:

I think that nerfing their astral would be a better idea, they really need a lot of gold for mages and all that freespawn.

And I'd also really like to see some better ways to invade water, now ANY nation in a game makes game more boring. Sitting in water is turtling, clamming etc and trying to invade water is well... boring. You need high level spells and cannot use almost any magic potential when you get over there.

[Edi]

"* Events proof read and fixed "

What's that?
Event typos have been eliminated. Some events were fixed, such as the blood fountain wailing that causes 10% poploss. That event was tied to 665 Principe instead of 656 Blood Fountain being present in the province. A couple more similar things and roc events being added for all kinds of elephants, not just Elephant 150. Some events gave wrong amount of gold compared to what the text says (e.g. 200 gold for a 1000 old events etc).

[konming]

Leprosy and beckoning have MR checks. Even if you get with some leprosies through, you can just hope for some minor afflictions on giants [and they can always put Shrouds on to get regen working all the time, which may stop getting any of them at all].

Hinnom has pretty good healers. Who cares about afflictions?

[Sombre]

Event typos have been eliminated. Some events were fixed, such as the blood fountain wailing that causes 10% poploss.

Is there a good side to that poploss, or is it just a negative to having a blood fountain?

Because, you know, blood fountains aren't great to begin with.

[archaeolept]

Hinnom nerf does not look like enough to solve the problem. They still have recruitable SCs, broad magic, blood magic, unique summons, powerful chariots [one less size really won't change almost anything, especially in EA]. They must become a banned nation for EA games.how do you know this w/out knowing how much the initial army or pd has been nerfed? Hinnom is already not especially better than niefelheim as to pure early game power.

[lch]

Event typos have been eliminated. Some events were fixed, such as the blood fountain wailing that causes 10% poploss.

Is there a good side to that poploss, or is it just a negative to having a blood fountain?
As long as it's only an event I don't think that it's that much of a balancing problem.

[chrispedersen]

Hinnom nerf does not look like enough to solve the problem. They still have recruitable SCs, broad magic, blood magic, unique summons, powerful chariots [one less size really won't change almost anything, especially in EA]. They must become a banned nation for EA games.how do you know this w/out knowing how much the initial army or pd has been nerfed? Hinnom is already not especially better than niefelheim as to pure early game power.

It really has to do with perception more than reality. Hinnom is *not* stronger than Niefle, fomoria, lanka, sauromatia. In our game of 16 World in crisis - turn 20'ish.. Hinnom is middle of the pack. Caelum and Tien Chi are game leaders.

[Zeldor]

chrispedersen:

Both Hinnom and Niefel are beyond any other nation. The fact that in some circumstances [bad player? good cooperation against them? different game settings?] they are not dominating means nothing. Look at the big picture. While Niefel and Hinnom are very strong in early game, in mid they turn into insane mode - buffs + construction for forging + recruitable SCs. At that stage Hinnom is as strong as he had 3x more provs.

[Epaminondas]

Hinnom nerf does not look like enough to solve the problem. They still have recruitable SCs, broad magic, blood magic, unique summons, powerful chariots [one less size really won't change almost anything, especially in EA]. They must become a banned nation for EA games.how do you know this w/out knowing how much the initial army or pd has been nerfed? Hinnom is already not especially better than niefelheim as to pure early game power.

It really has to do with perception more than reality. Hinnom is *not* stronger than Niefle, fomoria, lanka, sauromatia. In our game of 16 World in crisis - turn 20'ish.. Hinnom is middle of the pack. Caelum and Tien Chi are game leaders.

I don't play MPs, but WHY IN THE WORLD DO PEOPLE USE THE FACT THAT CERTAIN NATION HAS DONE BADLY OR WELL IN A SINGLE MP GAME AS PROOF THAT THEY EITHER SUCK OR ARE OVER-POWERED?

To begin with, a single--or even a few games--do not establish a rule. More germane, there are so many factors that go into performing well in MP game, including start position, the skill of the player, and the interplay of alliances.

Was Napoleonic France not "over-powered" on one-on-one basis simply because the rest of Europe ganged up on it and ultimately (after many setbacks) defeat it?

Preposterous and illogical.

[ano]

Epaminondas
Nice question about France. No, France was not overpowered, it was Napoleon who was and this is the answer to this discussion as our game is in many aspects similar with those big wars - most of success of a nation belongs to player but while a good player may do well and win with a weak nation, a powerful player with powerful nation often can't be stopped by any means other than ganging upon him.

[Gandalf Parker]

Opinions become facts if you get more than a couple of people to agree with you. :)
Its not surprising that MPers want to balance the game for MP.
Its also not surprising that they fail to consider Solo gamers.

To get really involved in the MP games, you have to join the forum. But to Solo play its not such a necessity. You can lurk, and search, for a long time. The sales numbers, and the numbers of forum visitors that are registered vs unregistered tends to show how the numbers really compare. But in the forums its easy to get the impression that the game is mostly MPers of a certain type. If you hang around the other forums, or the IRC channel, you get another impression of a different grouping.

Unfortunately, altho the soloists are probably the majority, they will always be the minority in discussions.

[Omnirizon]

Event typos have been eliminated. Some events were fixed, such as the blood fountain wailing that causes 10% poploss.

Is there a good side to that poploss, or is it just a negative to having a blood fountain?

Because, you know, blood fountains aren't great to begin with.

does this common wisdom hold for Oracles too?

against all common sense, I found a nation build that I really like with an awake oracle (NOT PROVIDING A BLESS!) The nation doesn't need an SC pretender, loves good scales, needs no bless, but likes a high dom to spread scales, and the added pearl income and astral magic just tops off their magic diversity. Additionally, the nation has magic paths with no natural income, and the pearls allow them to bootstrap this income MUCH easier.

amicrazy?

[Sombre]

Apart from being on of your favourite ways to separate dom3 players into two groups, what does that actually have to do with this topic Gandalf?

[Sombre]

does this common wisdom hold for Oracles too?

against all common sense, I found a nation build that I really like with an awake oracle (NOT PROVIDING A BLESS!) The nation doesn't need an SC pretender, loves good scales, needs no bless, but likes a high dom to spread scales, and the added pearl income and astral magic just tops off their magic diversity. Additionally, the nation has magic paths with no natural income, and the pearls allow them to bootstrap this income MUCH easier.

amicrazy?

Not so much, because high astral is far better than high blood, particularly if you aren't a blood nation. As for the gem producing,.. I think that's CBM only.

From what you describe the oracle there is an imprisoned standard S4 one, right? I don't think the pearl income or the astral when it wakes up is going to be significant. Still better than a blood fountain though.

[Omnirizon]

Opinions become facts if you get more than a couple of people to agree with you. :)
Its not surprising that MPers want to balance the game for MP.
Its also not surprising that they fail to consider Solo gamers.

To get really involved in the MP games, you have to join the forum. But to Solo play its not such a necessity. You can lurk, and search, for a long time. The sales numbers, and the numbers of forum visitors that are registered vs unregistered tends to show how the numbers really compare. But in the forums its easy to get the impression that the game is mostly MPers of a certain type. If you hang around the other forums, or the IRC channel, you get another impression of a different grouping.

Unfortunately, altho the soloists are probably the majority, they will always be the minority in discussions.

you're being a solo gamer totalitarian. however it is a falsifiable hypothesis that solo gamers need the game balanced for them like MP gamers do. The fact that solo gamers don't MP has just axiomatically disproven that hypothesis. MP gamers have some sort of (slightly ambiguous) reference point for balancing nations in MP. What is the SP reference point of balance?

P.S. I'm just being antagonistic because you pointed out the situated nature of knowledge, and then went on to use it for your own purposes of arguing for a situated point of view.:)

[Omnirizon]

does this common wisdom hold for Oracles too?

against all common sense, I found a nation build that I really like with an awake oracle (NOT PROVIDING A BLESS!) The nation doesn't need an SC pretender, loves good scales, needs no bless, but likes a high dom to spread scales, and the added pearl income and astral magic just tops off their magic diversity. Additionally, the nation has magic paths with no natural income, and the pearls allow them to bootstrap this income MUCH easier.

amicrazy?

Not so much, because high astral is far better than high blood, particularly if you aren't a blood nation. As for the gem producing,.. I think that's CBM only.

From what you describe the oracle there is an imprisoned standard S4 one, right? I don't think the pearl income or the astral when it wakes up is going to be significant. Still better than a blood fountain though.

no. reread my post. I specifically stated it was an awake oracle. the off-the-bat pearl income can pay HUGE dividends when it can be used to quickly bootstrap another gem income for a nation that has natural access to that path but no natural income. Additionally, The Oracle can have at least one path which the nation doesn't have that can be served by the pearl income to build up an economy of; aside from the astral paths and income of the oracle.

[Sombre]

no. reread my post. I specifically stated it was an awake oracle. the off-the-bat pearl income can pay HUGE dividends when it can be used to quickly bootstrap another gem income for a nation that has natural access to that path but no natural income. Additionally, The Oracle can have at least one path that the nation doesn't have too which can be served by the pearl income to build up an economy of; aside from the astral paths and income of the oracle.

No. There's no need to reread your post.

Do you mean by using the astral search spell? I'd think in the early game you're much better off manually searching with those native astral mages.

It's an interesting tradeoff in CBM. You lose a lot of scale points by taking it awake and gain,... pearl income. Not the most useful thing in the early game, but certainly nice to have a stash of them to rock that first dispel or to use for magic duels, power of the spheres etc. The research you gain is negligible so I'm sort of discounting that.

The second path doesn't make sense to me. How is the awake oracle going to use it in the early game? If it isn't, I would think a sleeping oracle would be better. It definitely sounds like a build that could have problems with early aggression. No SC pretender, no sacreds,... so who is this with? Caelum? Bandar?

[Edi]

Event typos have been eliminated. Some events were fixed, such as the blood fountain wailing that causes 10% poploss.

Is there a good side to that poploss, or is it just a negative to having a blood fountain?

Because, you know, blood fountains aren't great to begin with.
It's just a bad event. A rare one, I think. I've seen it a few times when playing with Broken Empire Ermor, since the data typo made it contingent on their Principes. Annoying, but it's supposed to be in the game and supposed to be correct. Some people had reported that event as buggy, which is why I checked the data references when I proofread the code. That's how it got caught.

[thejeff]

That's nice, Gandalf. And probably even true.

But does it actually have any relevance to Hinnom's power?
I do play mostly SP. Hinnom is unbalanced. I'm not that good a player, but it's not even fun using it against the AI. You can just roll over them.

And it's not even that useful as an uber AI opponent, since the AI doesn't do well with it's strengths. Hinnom is all about SCs and small groups of tough troops. The AI can't build or script SCs, won't use small efficient groups of troops, but just throws a mish-mash of recruits together and sends them out. If you give it a decent bless, half time it won't bother blessing the troops or sending out sacreds in the first place.
About the only thing that really helps the AI is the good PD.
The AI just isn't good at using nations like Hinnom, so why is it a problem to balance it for MP? To me it looks like the changes will help keep it from being easy for SP, while not crippling the AI anymore than it already is. Do you think Hinnom is particularly good for SP as it is? Are there different changes you'd suggest?

[Sombre]

It's just a bad event. A rare one, I think. I've seen it a few times when playing with Broken Empire Ermor, since the data typo made it contingent on their Principes. Annoying, but it's supposed to be in the game and supposed to be correct. Some people had reported that event as buggy, which is why I checked the data references when I proofread the code. That's how it got caught.

Shame it doesn't give you a bunch of blood slaves as well. Oh well.

[Ballbarian]

Apart from being on of your favourite ways to separate dom3 players into two groups, what does that actually have to do with this topic Gandalf?

Gandalf's post added more to the discussion than yours just did (or mine for that matter).

(Sorry. Couldn't resist. :) )

[Omnirizon]

no. reread my post. I specifically stated it was an awake oracle. the off-the-bat pearl income can pay HUGE dividends when it can be used to quickly bootstrap another gem income for a nation that has natural access to that path but no natural income. Additionally, The Oracle can have at least one path that the nation doesn't have too which can be served by the pearl income to build up an economy of; aside from the astral paths and income of the oracle.

No. There's no need to reread your post.

Do you mean by using the astral search spell? I'd think in the early game you're much better off manually searching with those native astral mages.

It's an interesting tradeoff in CBM. You lose a lot of scale points by taking it awake and gain,... pearl income. Not the most useful thing in the early game, but certainly nice to have a stash of them to rock that first dispel or to use for magic duels, power of the spheres etc. The research you gain is negligible so I'm sort of discounting that.

The second path doesn't make sense to me. How is the awake oracle going to use it in the early game? If it isn't, I would think a sleeping oracle would be better. It definitely sounds like a build that could have problems with early aggression. No SC pretender, no sacreds,... so who is this with? Caelum? Bandar?

not the astral search spell... the normal site search spells. The pearls can be alchemized to become anything they need to be. I know... laugh laugh because alchemy suxxor... But used in this fashion it is paying large dividends because a nation can increase its per turn gem income by a factor of two in the early portions of the game and can increase its per game income maybe by 25-50% (depending on the length of the game, short games would see higher percents) since it allows gem income to ramp up very quickly.

This works best with a nation that:
1. Can make do without an SC pretender
2. Don't need a bless
3. have no astral mages...
4. no astral income
5. at least one mage that can site search a path that the nation does not have income in. (i.e. good natural diversity. i.e. five natural paths)
6. uses good scales and needs high dom (maybe combined with weak priests, thus making high dom more necessary?)

Essentially, this is only another option for very specific nations that might have gone with an Enchantress, but where the nation has enough natural diversity that the Rainbow's benefits might be superceded by what an Oracle can offer. In these situations the Oracle will provide at least equivalent scales, better dominion, and an (even higher than Enchantress) natural income of Pearls. The main benefit comes from the much higher dominion.

For nations: Shinuyama is a good nation because they already have access to 5 paths naturally, mages with paths but no gems, and lots of good mix ups. All they need is Astral and Air and something they can alchemize early on to start searching out Water and Air (and of course using the pearls themselves for Astral) to be complete.

[chrispedersen]

chrispedersen:

Both Hinnom and Niefel are beyond any other nation. The fact that in some circumstances [bad player? good cooperation against them? different game settings?] they are not dominating means nothing. Look at the big picture. While Niefel and Hinnom are very strong in early game, in mid they turn into insane mode - buffs + construction for forging + recruitable SCs. At that stage Hinnom is as strong as he had 3x more provs.

Zeldor I have played Hinnom/Gath in something like 9 mp games.
I've been playing Dominions since its inception. Perhaps I am completely unskilled. But I simply do not find Hinnom to be the game breaker you portray it to be. Strong yes. Top Ten yes. Beyond any other nation.. no.

You posit that Hinnoom and Niefel are beyond any other nation.
But that just doesn't square with objective reality. LA Ermor, LA Ryalla are much bigger problems.

I believe I can reliably beat a person of equal skill playing hinnom with many different nations - I don't think its even particularly challenging. Lanka, Mictlan,LA Mictlan, LA ermor, Sauromatia, to name a few.

By the way - I am not a competent player with ulm - but I'd be interested in seeing how the the ulm new stop sacred would work again hinnom / Niefle.

And the Size difference makes a *huge* difference. It stops the chariots from trampling some of Fomorias units, some of Niefles, and elephants - which includes the arcosephale nations, the bandar log nations, and independent elephants - not to mention Caelum's mammoths.

I have no problem if hinnom is nerfed (hopefully in a thematic sense). But to my mind the biggest problem is the strength of the starting army.

But I'd much rather see some of the weak races boosted a little.
Yomi, if it had just a few problems fixed (mostly having to do with magic paths)- could just blow Niefle out of the water.

Change the precision of those yomi flame throwing units from 8 to 11, and increase the prcision of the throw flames to +4 and you'd see Niefle.. go down in flames.. literally.

And its not that unbalancing as you're talking about 3 ammo units......

[chrispedersen]

Event typos have been eliminated. Some events were fixed, such as the blood fountain wailing that causes 10% poploss.

Is there a good side to that poploss, or is it just a negative to having a blood fountain?

Because, you know, blood fountains aren't great to begin with.

does this common wisdom hold for Oracles too?

against all common sense, I found a nation build that I really like with an awake oracle (NOT PROVIDING A BLESS!) The nation doesn't need an SC pretender, loves good scales, needs no bless, but likes a high dom to spread scales, and the added pearl income and astral magic just tops off their magic diversity. Additionally, the nation has magic paths with no natural income, and the pearls allow them to bootstrap this income MUCH easier.

amicrazy?

I use oracles or blood fountains on roughtly half my builds.

[Gandalf Parker]

Sorry if that was unclear. That was in reference to Epaminondas.
I don't play MPs, but WHY IN THE WORLD DO PEOPLE USE THE FACT THAT CERTAIN NATION HAS DONE BADLY OR WELL IN A SINGLE MP GAME AS PROOF THAT THEY EITHER SUCK OR ARE OVER-POWERED?

It does tend to be hard for solo players to see the reasons behind such strong opinions based on how a nation does in a few mp games.

[Gandalf Parker]

I think the event on the Blood Fountain was just that it was already in the game, but was not working correctly. So it was fixed.

[Sombre]

By the way - I am not a competent player with ulm - but I'd be interested in seeing how the the ulm new stop sacred would work again hinnom / Niefle.


Probably not too well, since EA Ulm doesn't have any units with that ability.

And the Size difference makes a *huge* difference. It stops the chariots from trampling some of Fomorias units, some of Niefles, and elephants - which includes the arcosephale nations, the bandar log nations, and independent elephants - not to mention Caelum's mammoths.


Elephants and mammoths are size 6, so hinnom chariots could never trample them. Niefel giants are size 5 and I don't believe size 6 hinnom chariots could beat them via trampling - size 6 vs size 5 and they're quite a lot worse, particularly against cold aura blessed units that are 1 to a square.


Change the precision of those yomi flame throwing units from 8 to 11, and increase the prcision of the throw flames to +4 and you'd see Niefle.. go down in flames.. literally.

That would be a pretty major boost, changing flames from inaccurate spray to laser precise magic missiles.

[Tifone]

I agree with Sombre on that. Possibly I fail to see the thematicness of Onis shooting so precise fires.

No, France was not overpowered, it was Napoleon who was[...]

Was he an SC? Maybe a Seraph? :D

[MaxWilson]

By the way - I am not a competent player with ulm - but I'd be interested in seeing how the the ulm new stop sacred would work again hinnom / Niefle.


Probably not too well, since EA Ulm doesn't have any units with that ability.

Some people play multi-age.

FWIW, in test games I found that the MA Ulm "sacred" troop (well, their weapons are sacred, sort of), in moderate numbers, is quite capable of killing off a fully decked-out Malik SC from Ashdod. Fatigue kills SCs.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

I would keep the imprecision of Throw Flames but boost the base precision of the Oni troops somewhat, on the theory that they're immortal and have had ages to practice throwing flames at peasants.

-Max

[konming]

And give them AOE 1 or 3. It is flame thrower after all.

[Tifone]

I think it's a more like a fire dart actually ;) (not that I say that Yomi shouldn't deserve some boost at some point :) )

[MaxWilson]

But does it actually have any relevance to Hinnom's power? I do play mostly SP. Hinnom is unbalanced. I'm not that good a player, but it's not even fun using it against the AI. You can just roll over them.

And it's not even that useful as an uber AI opponent, since the AI doesn't do well with it's strengths. Hinnom is all about SCs and small groups of tough troops.

*cough* Ashdod is "unbalanced" too. Admittedly, any nation which can produce thugs and SCs is "unbalanced" against the AI once you get to that stage, but Ashdod with an E10N6 bless is pretty ridiculous too. A single E10N6 Adon can take pretty much any indy province except knights, elephants, or barbarians all on his own even before you research Body Ethereal. He's almost impossible for indies to damage, regenerates, and has 0 enc. (Add in some Ahimans to take down elephants and knights.) You can be taking 4 provinces/turn around later winter of the first year, constrained mostly by geography. Ashdods best researchers aren't quite as good as LA Agartha, even post-Agarthan nerf, but they're sacred (and high-research if you feel like saving points w/ Drain). Ashdod has a forge bonus for equipping SCs and native earth/death/fire income, so making a Shadow Brand + Shield of Gleaming Gold for every Adon is eminently possible once you hit Const-6. The AI has no way to stop SCs, and it's impossible to lose quickly enough to not get SCs... I think Ashdod is the first nation I've tried where I have never lost a game to the AI even in the learning phase. (Ashdod's national summons aren't even really an issue here because the game is over before you get them--but E10N6 Dirge For The Dead is amazing for the price.)

I don't think this says anything per se about whether Ashdod is overpowered in general (SCs are a known problem for the AI) but in SP it's kind of sick.

-Max

[Lingchih]

Yes, Ashdod needs a nerf too, but I think the devs know this. They are just looking for more info on how over-powered Ashdod is. Your post should help.

thanks

[chrispedersen]

By the way - I am not a competent player with ulm - but I'd be interested in seeing how the the ulm new stop sacred would work again hinnom / Niefle.


Probably not too well, since EA Ulm doesn't have any units with that ability.

Irrelevent (as you know). Single Age mod allows any age to face any age.

And the Size difference makes a *huge* difference. It stops the chariots from trampling some of Fomorias units, some of Niefles, and elephants - which includes the arcosephale nations, the bandar log nations, and independent elephants - not to mention Caelum's mammoths.




Elephants and mammoths are size 6, so hinnom chariots could never trample them. Niefel giants are size 5 and I don't believe size 6 hinnom chariots could beat them via trampling - size 6 vs size 5 and they're quite a lot worse, particularly against cold aura blessed units that are 1 to a square.



Try it. Hinnom tramples niefle giants just fine.

Change the precision of those yomi flame throwing units from 8 to 11, and increase the prcision of the throw flames to +4 and you'd see Niefle.. go down in flames.. literally.

That would be a pretty major boost, changing flames from inaccurate spray to laser precise magic missiles.

Yomi needs a big boost. Personally I agree. I'd rather see the area of effect increase, rather than the precision - but I don't think that happens.

But the precision algorithm is seriously whacked. Routinely you will hit something 30degrees or 45 degrees away from where you were aiming. I'm not an archer. Never have been, never will be.
But I can damn sure do better than a 45 degree variance. Routinely.

[rdonj]

Keep in mind that that would basically be like giving them aoe crossbows that can't be stopped by shields. I don't think that would be terribly fair, especially after you got wind guide researched and your opponent realized that arrow fend won't stop the flames anymore.

[konming]

They are fire based, so anything immune to fire won't be affected. Fire drake has this ability for ages, and no one thinks too highly of it.

[rdonj]

That's because fire drakes cost a lot of gems, and losing that many gems isn't fun. But I think they're underrated, personally. Look at it this way, what if all Aka-oni could cast the fireball spell, for no fatigue, 3 times in every battle. Would that be fair?

Personally I would favor the precision boost. They would be pretty worthwhile with a bit better precision without being 25 gold mini-mages with limited immortality.

[MaxWilson]

Yes, Ashdod needs a nerf too, but I think the devs know this. They are just looking for more info on how over-powered Ashdod is. Your post should help.

thanks


I don't know if I'm advocating for a nerf or not. Part of the fun of strategy games is identifying the "best" strategies and getting to exploit them: in this case it was pretty obvious that a good bless benefits Ashdod way more than an SC pretender because they already have recruitable SCs, and almost everything else follows from there. I might just be advocating that if you play with Ashdod, you will need to create custom "Super Impossible" AIs to play against (give them lots of extra gems, research bonus, etc.) in order to make it fun. "Nerfing," to me, is more about MP and I don't have any data on how Ashdod plays in MP. I suspect they're going to be gold-hungry, and will have a little bit of trouble getting early research started because Adonim take a couple of turns to recruit until you get Resources up (thus preventing you from recruiting *two* mages). The single-Adon expansion parties are also a little brittle and perhaps susceptible to ambush. Somehow, people manage to stave off Niefelheim, and with no cold aura I expect an Ashdod rush to be less frightening than Niefelheim but perhaps on par with Lanka or Helheim.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

Personally I would favor the precision boost. They would be pretty worthwhile with a bit better precision without being 25 gold mini-mages with limited immortality.

Recruitable anywhere, at that. I think Yomi could use a boost but making Throw Flames AoE would be huge. I should probably do it for the AI in my games, though, just for fun and flavor. :) I already gave them furs to boost their Prot to 10 (and Encumbrance to 5).

-Max

[Irishmafia2020]

I mostly play Ashdod, and they are very powerful in contrast to some A.I. nations. However, I usually play with the $$ and resources at 75% of normal, and the giants are expensive in that case. I can't recruit my biggest guys until I have captured the provinces surrounding my home city, and by then I am usually expanding with mercs and AOR chaff. That suggests to me that the easiest and most balanced way to nerf Ashdod is to increase their big units initial price in resources/money. That way the player must make an early game choice between a SC strategy, or a more conventional strategy. A good player could still be very successful with Ashdod even so, since they have some excellent units otherwise. Their scouts are giants, and they can be outfitted with a crown of command (50 command) an ethereal robe, a skeleton necklace (skeleton spam) a decent weapon, a magic boosting item, and boots of the behemoth (trample) to go with their army of 50 woodsmen each and literally wreak special-ops havoc behind enemy lines. Don't even get me started on how dangerous their Uber-mages are (the 400 gold guys) with their guaranteed level 3 magic + 1, 80 unit leadership, and 50 HP....

[chrispedersen]

Personally I would favor the precision boost. They would be pretty worthwhile with a bit better precision without being 25 gold mini-mages with limited immortality.

Recruitable anywhere, at that. I think Yomi could use a boost but making Throw Flames AoE would be huge. I should probably do it for the AI in my games, though, just for fun and flavor. :) I already gave them furs to boost their Prot to 10 (and Encumbrance to 5).

-Max


IIRC they are already AoE. I was just advocating making the AoE larger. This is one of the reasons that I think Yomi is advocated to be played wrong. Even so, yomi still has mage path problems. Aka... switch yomi's national mage to a2, or give them a demonic precision spell equivalent to windguide.. and you'd see a quantum improvement.

[rdonj]

No, they're not naturally AoE, they're just 8 ap damage to a single target. They would, however, be far better if they could reliably get precision increasing spells cast on them. So making Dai Oni have a higher chace at A2 or the national precision spell could be useful. But I'm almost not sure it's worth it for only three shots anyway.

[TwoBits]

Eh, Yomi is fine the way it is. Once you realize that it's all about the Dai-Oni (one of the best forging/ritual/combat casting units in the game - don't waste your time trying to turn it into an SC), and that all the other commanders/units are only there to support and protect it, Yomi is a powerhouse. Even the seemingly pathetic 1 Air comes in brutally handy (I'll just mention Rain of Stones for one thing).

But since I'm playing LA R'lyeh at the moment, that's the most troubling 'nerf' I see. R'lyeh "free-spawn" cost up-keep? Huge news to me - I totally did not think so (although I'd been wondering why my upkeep budget has been so high - didn't think I'd had that many Starspawn and mindflayers on the payroll)!

Do all of LA R'lyeh's "free" spawn cost upkeep? If so, how much? If not all, which ones?

And I can totally see how the new change will cripple them badly. Instant starvation and disease on a massive scale. No money at all (as it is, I haven't bought a new mage Starspawn in months, as my upkeep has been consuming well over 50% of my income for some time now - upkeep for so-called free-spawn?). Will your fanatics desert?

"Well, we do like the Dreams, but we like getting paid more, Cthulu F'taghn (just not any time soon)."

Rather than wiping out their population, I think a better "nerf" for R'lyeh would be tweaking their magic paths. Decrease their Astral and increase their Water? Or how about this - change their Earth random to Fire (or even Air)? Yeah, that will give them easier access to all those "acid" type crossover spells, but will eliminate their native ability to forge Crystal Amulets and Shields - without those two boosters (outside of Pretender forging), their goes their 'first turn' Master Enslave. That, or some other tweak to their current crazy Astral ability should be the way to go.

Just making their Dominion more deadly will just make them into another Mictlan, meaning a race that will have to contain their crappy dominion to a limited area (outside of which they'll presumably try to play like MA R'lyeh), but without the ability to blood-sacrifice and what not.

It will ruin all the insane fun that is LA R'lyeh!

[Endoperez]

Some of the R'lyeh freespawn cost money, some don't. I think the only ones that cost anything are the same ones you can recruit from coastal castles, as is common for various summoned things that are also available for recruitment (trolls, Yaksha/Yakshini for MA/LA Bandar, etc).

This just in:
* Ujigami, Mori-no-kami, Kenzoku.

[konming]

All non-void freespawn (those mad *** ones) cost money. They do not cost much, from 1/15 to 2/15 per turn, but it multiplies. No they are not the ones you can recruit from coastal provinces.

[Tifone]

I like Twobits ideas. Rising the killerdom at Ermor's level seems to be a little unthematic, tweaking their strong paths goes better to me. Also, we don't really have a nation heavy on acid spells and wouldn't it be temathic with these alien monstrosities? :)

[HoneyBadger]

Yomi isn't fine the way it is.

Once you've realized that it's "all about the Dai-Oni", you're free to start to question why that is, or why it should be, all about a single Capital-only commander unit. If nothing else, that's boring, and Yomi's too cool thematically to be built around a single, boring, tactic-I won't bother to call it a strategy, strategies are complex, overarching plans, that require a bunch of elements to come together and work.

Yomi might be "fine" in the sense that it's possible to win a game or two with them, but there's not a whole lot of different ways to do that. The Dai-Oni, just for one narrow example, looks like an SC and walks like an SC. Either they should *be* SCable, or there should be good SC access for this Nation. Big giant demon kings in Samurai armour *not* being good SC chassis is rather confusing and frustrating for anyone trying to play them. Their Oni generals don't even make top-of-the-line thugs.

Yomi's also not "fine" in the sense that they're a demon Nation with no demon summons. There's just something wrong about that. I don't think they even get demon heroes, just some psycho cannibal human guy. Maybe they do, but nothing too special.

Surely, it's reasonable to expect that there have to be other types of demons wherever the Yomi demons come from, and it's just as reasonable to expect that they could be either brought to the surface with applicable rituals, or bribed to fight for Yomi with gems-however you want to imagine the process works. Or occasionally, a unique demon crawls through the Yomi "gate".

It's a really cool Nation, with great graphics, interesting types of demons, and a fun part of history and mythology to draw ideas from, but it's just not where it should be, in terms of gameplay.

It's the exact same situation with EA Aboleths. They have 1 fantastic unit-that's also not SCable-a few ok but not spectacular units, and the rest are marginal. And they don't have *any* National summons, which again is strange, considering that they're a very unique Astral Nation.

They don't even get the Void Gate, like the rest of R'lyeh, which would go a looong way towards making them competitive. I know it's not quite "thematic" for them to have it, but it wouldn't sacrifice the theme to give them some sort of "proto-void", or something.

For that matter, both of these Nations remind me of R'lyeh, without the Void Gate, except that both R'lyeh MA and LA get better recruits than Aboleths.

Oh and I'll second Tifone's idea, I'd love to see an "acid nation", but if it's going on a Vanilla Nation, I'd like to see it applied to Aboleths, who are even more monstrous.

[rdonj]

Just out of curiosity, why don't people think Dai Oni make good SCs? Their stats are fairly decent and they have the ability to cast summon earthpower, soul vortex, and phoenix pyre all naturally. I admit I don't have much experience with SCs but isn't that a fairly strong combination?

[Tifone]

AFAIK people do think they are. They have, as you said, nice stats, and are very self buffable and fully equippable.
But they are middle game SCs... very expensive and you can't use them early without researching buffs and better weapons (armor!) for them - unlike Jarls i.e., they don't have an inbuild aura that kills people of whatever.
In the early game, you just get a big, expensive and encumbered guy with a big knife to hit one enemy a turn while getting swarmed.

[Trumanator]

Their main problem out of the box is the horrible armor they have. Its not the prot, its the encumbrance. That is pretty easy to fix though. Other than that I don't really get it either.

[HoneyBadger]

I think Dai Onis are *meant* to be the best recruitable SCs in the game, but they fail on several counts.

In addition to the bad armour, they've got low research ability, and they're capital only-which is an issue for them, unlike Niefelheim, who can mass-produce regular Niefel Jotuns. A high bless with Yomi isn't worth considering, because you have no sacred recruits, and no really good sacred National summons. It's an expensive trial to SC them, and while you're doing that, other Nations are beating you in research and with their own sacred troops and SCs.

If Yomi had a sacred recruitable demon, then I think they'd be much more SC worthy, but since they don't, it becomes much less cost effective to give them the bless they need, and they can't forge well enough, early enough, to make up the lack.

[Trumanator]

I've never understood why the Kuro-Onis at least weren't sacred. What would be really great, though probably OPed, would be if the Aka-Onis, Ao-Onis, Onis, and Kuro-Onis were all sacred. Yomi is one nation that could benefit immensely from an Air or Astral bless. Air for the shield, and Astral for the MR to resist banishments.

[Aezeal]

autocast soulvortex would solve a lot of problem.. it would also give a new one: then the Dai-oni would be terribly overpowered :D

[Tifone]

Or maybe we're all failing at playing it correctly, like trying to play Pangaea as Ulm, and we should try some different ways. :confused:

[zzcat]

In Japanese folklore, onies are feared instead of worshiped, so making them sacred do not make sense. I prefer give them priest spells like unholy pretection to boost their mr. And giving Dai-Oni a Wraith sword(or"wraith katana")or +3 Reinvigoration may make them better in early game but not overpowered.

[Kristoffer O]

Regarding the R'lyeh pop-kill:

The dreamland was originally intended to kill population, in the sense that people fell asleep and quit working, succumbing to the dream-lure of the void.

I don't remember if there was a dreamland theme in dom2, but the early mechanic was similar to that of ermor. With a slight change of mechanics all pop-kill dominions got reduced by a factor of 10. Ermor was recently fixed, but apparently R'lyeh was forgotten. Thinking about the possible effect it would have we decided not to go the full length and went for a factor of 5 instead. Since this has not been tested since the release of dom3 (although we did play with it before the release and the change in mechanics) we are a bit uncertain about the effects, especially combined with the freespawns and their upkeep. Input on how the reinstated pop-kill works out will be appreciated.

Feel free to discuss possible effects now already, but we will probably not make any further changes until we have actual experience to back up opinions.

[Tifone]

What I think is maybe Dai-Onis and oni troops should in fact remain a good mid-game option, and be unefficent in early game. I don't expecially feel the need of another nation with early SCs or strong sacreds. IMHO Yomi lacks a decent early option anyway, except some raiding potential with the bandits, and the massable bakemonos...

HoneyBadger:

Don't all the acid spells not work underwater? How could it be an advantage for Aboleths?

[Zeldor]

Kristoffer O:

1. R'lyeh - popkill may be a good idea for them, but I'd also like to see improved mechanics of fighting between water and land, that is much easier invasion of water nation. If that happened R'lyeh should surely get better recruitment at land forts and something to do with their aquatic freespawn [now you have to starve them in low-pop province].

2. How about Demon Gate for Yomi? You know, smth like R'lyeh has, but with demons :) Maybe also Angelic Gate [like enochian rituals] for some other nations?

3. Any progress on Vanarus or EA/LA MAchaka? :) [or 3-pack of new nations as Christmas gift for us? :)]

4. Maybe some new cool items and spells? Pocket Lab? Spell creating temples?

[Gregstrom]

For yomi, I think some small change like giving the demon troops another point of MR (to help against banish-spamming) would help. Perhaps regen on their ghost forms would help as well.

[Festin]

I suggest giving samurai armor less encumberance, which would help both Dai Oni and Jomon infantry. Jomon also could use some improving of their summons, like Seduction for Kitsune, but I am again repeating myself:)
Really can't wait to see the nice new features for these races that are coming with this patch:)

[Tifone]

Samurai Armor with lower encumberance would just help the balancing (maybe), but not surely thematicness. Ever tried, or even seen, wearing an ancient samurai armor? :)

On another note, I think it would be a mistake by the devs to start abusing the concept of the gates for many nations. Surely it is entertaining (I came up some time ago with the idea of a dinosaur gate like in Verne, and iirc someone before me with that too) and while it could help the early game of Yomi, and even be quite temathic with the "coming from netherworld" idea, I think going further would just add unbalance to the game... and be probably quite naive.

[AdmiralZhao]

I agree with Tifone, the gate is just right as a bit of Ryleh-only weirdness. If everyone and their brother has a gate, it makes it not nearly so neat.

[Amorphous]

Regarding Yomi:

I am admittedly not that familiar with Yomi, but if it needs a boost, I do not think it well advised to do it through making the Dai-Oni more powerful. The unit is already plenty powerful with excellent base stats. The starting armour is not good, but it is easily replaced even early on. The magic paths of the Dai-Oni allows for the casting of excellent buff spells after a little research is done, so it is not really dependent on a good bless.


Regarding R'lyeh:

I think pop-kill is the way to go. Perhaps not as drastic as with Ermor, but this seems like a good compromise. Limiting R'lyeh's astral power - other than through economics - is not such a good idea, however. The nation is a powerhouse, but with a dominion that makes everyone else insane it needs to be, and as far as I can see, astral is a big part of what makes it powerful later on. If there is a problem, I see it more as one of quantity and not of quality, which means limiting the amount of high-astral mages, not the level of astral on each mage, is the way to go - and increasing the pop-kill effect should accomplish this.


Regarding invasion of water provinces:

I do not like the idea of making it easier for land-bound nations to invade water provinces. As it stands now, I think there is a pretty good balance between land and water nations while still keeping them rather different in style and options. Making it easier for land nations to invade the water and provide water nations with better recruiting abilities on land would just make them more similar to each other.

Consider also that maps in general have more land than water provinces. In EA and MA there are 3 full-fledged water nations that compete under the waves and even in a game where only one of them is present there are undead and amphibian troops to contend with, not to mention that you do not win by just owning the water. And on land they are at a disadvantage. In LA, R´lyeh is the only nation that starts in the water, but Atlantis is still around and still a full-fledged water nation, Mictlan has some rather beefy amphibian units, Patala's Nagas are something to ignore at your own peril and there is death magic practically everywhere, so more or less everyone can just send wave after wave of undead.

Also, at construction 2 you can get thugs in the water and from construction 4 you can bring troops as well.


Regarding acid:

I think especially EA Atlantis is a great acid nation. All Basalt Kings and half the Mages of the Deep can cast acid spells. Great, dark old beings rising from the sea, calling down acid from the skies and making the population kneel in the acidic sludge before their giant god of the deep is an image that would make Lovecraft proud.

[Tifone]

Nice and reasonable analysis Amorphous. I must say I agree with almost everything.

[Endoperez]

Patala's Nagas are something to ignore at your own peril and there is death magic practically everywhere, so more or less everyone can just send wave after wave of undead.

Nagas are capital-only and not very good, so ignoring them shouldn't be too difficult, and wave after wave of mindless undead will die rather quickly when the Illithids Mind Burn can only target the non-mindless commanders. Once you have a small stronghold underwater, you can recruit aquatic units, but launching a straight land-to-water campaign is much harder than you imply and only possible for spesific nations, and far from easy even for them.


Great, dark old beings rising from the sea, calling down acid from the skies and making the population kneel in the acidic sludge before their giant god of the deep is an image that would make Lovecraft proud.

That IS nice. :up: :D
I agree with your other points.

[Kristoffer O]

I have other ideas for Yomi, but they are a bit mechanics-heavy, meaning I must convince JK to make them, meaning he must shift focus from other projects. Thus I need to be quite clear on what I want. So for the time being I will work on coolifying Jomon. The coolifying is coming along quite nicely I'd say.

I have a dragon break, meaning I have quit drawing dragons for the time being. They need attack sprites, which is annoying since the originals took me quite some time to draw. Scaly bastards. I've moved to kami making. Jomon will have a nice number of sacred summons. Some shinto and some buddhist. Also there will be a couple of new monsters for Jomon, shinu and yomi. Some, like the shikome, will be restricted to yomi and possibly shinu I suspect.

Jomon will also recieve a couple of new recruits and some priestly spells if I can make mechanics out of some buddhist concepts.

[Kristoffer O]

I like the basalt king acid sludge image! :)

[Amorphous]

Nagas are capital-only and not very good, so ignoring them shouldn't be too difficult, and wave after wave of mindless undead will die rather quickly when the Illithids Mind Burn can only target the non-mindless commanders. Once you have a small stronghold underwater, you can recruit aquatic units, but launching a straight land-to-water campaign is much harder than you imply and only possible for spesific nations, and far from easy even for them.

It was not my intention to overstate the case and claim that it is easy for land nations to just switch to underwater combat on the level with water nations - sorry if it came off that way. The point I tried to make was rather that it is not that hard for land nations to descend into the seas.

Nagas, for example, may not be very good, but they are easily good enough to take underwater indies or provinces just defended by PD. And, as you said, once you have a water province you can start to expand using troops bought there. Since Nagas can be bought from turn one, ignoring them may lead to a rather nasty surprise later on.

As a general rule, land nations are the under-seadog beneath the waves, which means they should use a strategy appropriate to that - most probably raiding. Water nations cannot afford to let others have water provinces too long, or they risk the creation of another water power. And raiding with high taxes and pillaging is not fun for the target.

Specifically for LA R´lyeh, the nation needs expensive Illithids and/or mages to counter raiding. Keeping sufficient forces of these everywhere cost a lot - more than can usually be afforded.

Again, to be clear, I do not mean that it is easy for land nations to carve themselves a sizeable underwater empire, but for many it is relatively easy to be a bother to existing water empires. The same - even for LA R´lyeh - really applies to water nations trying to ascend to dry land. Late in the game this changes, but I think it does so for both parties, at least to some extent.

I cannot really claim any extensive knowledge of this game - what little MP I have played, have been with friends who, like me, probably are not very good. With that in mind, I still think that some of the complaints voiced here comes from less than well thought out strategies. Going into the seas is an investment for land nations that is initially expensive as is going on land for water nations. The difference is that when playing water nations, players tend to realize that they have to plan land campaigns well ahead, while in the case of land nations they do not do it to the same extent. I think you can get a good perspective on this through perusing the many strategy guides in this forum, while keeping the crossing of the water-border in mind. At least to my recollection, water nation guides more or less always include advise on how to get on land, while the converse is rarely true for land nations.

In my opinion it is hard for land nations to go up against water nations in the sea and it is hard for water nations to go up against land nations on land - and I like it that way.


Edit:

I like the basalt king acid sludge image!
I like the treatment of lovecraftian themes in this game a lot.
In fact, while I like Dominions for a lot of things, I have to say that it was the excellent treatment of mythologies - historical and purely literary - in general that drew me to it in the first place. It is rare to see a sound collection of mythologies handled so successfully and respectfully. In my mind mythologies are foremost good old stories that have stood the test of time and deserve to be remembered, added to and viewed from new perspectives.

Going on will just be even more like a rant, so instead I will just say thank you for a great game.

[Xietor]

I am very appreciative of the fact that KO continues to update Dominions. But count me among the few that hate to see the super races nerfed. To me having a couple super races adds a sense of urgency to diplomacy in mp games.

The player who typically like to do his own thing starts out next to LA Ermor. He is basically forced to do some emergency diplomacy or he is likely to die. I think the previous Big Game benefitted from having LA Ermor and LA Ryleh in them. They were not excluded from Kingmaker because of their power, but because of their free spawns, and the unit cap.

But the other socalled super race was in Kingmaker and was either the 1st or second race eliminated from the game-Hinnom. Yes they were double teamed, but that is what mp is all about. It is rare in mp that you make it through a game and never see the short end of a double team.

My only caution is to nerf lightly. No need for overkill as none of these races are broken as they are.

If time permits, and it is thematic, I would like to see a few of the minor easy to implement suggestions for underpowered races added. Like a commander for LA Ulm that can lead undead. There were a couple of other minor tweaks for races that have been discussed over the last few months and i will not rehash them here.

[Tifone]

I am partially buddhist so please treat us nicely mr KO :D

[TwoBits]

I just don't see how R'lyeh can function in even the medium term with a much faster population crash. Unlike Ermor, they have to spend gold on their commanders (280 each for non-sacred Starspawn mages). Add to that, apparently their not-so-free-spawn cost upkeep. Played the normal way (awake Dom 10 god, building temples as fast as they can, etc.), they will quickly cripple themselves economically.

Heck, I'm in the mid-game as R'lyeh in an MP game right now, and as it is I haven't bought a new Starspawn or Illithid in at least a dozen turns, as already more than two thirds of my income is devoured by upkeep! If my population really started to die off, I'd be FUBAR.

Yeah, in my current game, I'm a dangerous faction. But as others have mentioned, this is where diplomacy comes into play - there's already a coalition built just to deal with me.

The point is, if R'lyeh's population dies a whole lot faster, it will require a completely different style of play. They can't just ignore it, and burn gems and the occasional lucky gold strike like Ermor. They'd have to play a lot like Mictlan (except with a lot less control, with no blood sacrifice available), restricting their crappy dominion to their capital and surrounding environment.

Outside of their lethal dominion, they'd have to play like MA R'lyeh, except they'd have to do it in whatever crummy enemy dominion they happened to be in. "Free Spawn" would become a totally minor part of their game plan - just something they scrape up from the 'dead-zone' that is their capital.

LA R'lyeh will have to 'nerf' it's own Dreamlands fun, just in order to fund it's own existence. So that would mean a lot less random void-beings, many fewer free cultist commanders, and a whole lot less INSANITY - all the things that make LA R'lyeh such a fun race to have in the game. Basically, it would wind up like a gimped MA R'lyeh.

Oh well, just my two bits. Maybe I'm only griping because I'm worrying that the next patch will totally kill me in my current game ;) I just wish there was another way of cutting LA R'lyeh down to size (that didn't involve cutting it's head clean off!).

[archaeolept]

less talk, more releasing of patches :p

[JimMorrison]

LA R'lyeh will have to 'nerf' it's own Dreamlands fun, just in order to fund it's own existence. So that would mean a lot less random void-beings, many fewer free cultist commanders, and a whole lot less INSANITY - all the things that make LA R'lyeh such a fun race to have in the game. Basically, it would wind up like a gimped MA R'lyeh.


Well and that just won't do - and it's the crux of the war between balance and theme.

Honestly I think most people would agree that some sort of change would benefit the game as a whole, however it would be hard to get someone who has actually played R'lyeh, to not agree that insuring all freespawns are free of upkeep, must accompany a reduction in cash-flow.

Personally I think that doubling the popkill rate will be plenty of a balancing factor. At that point, it already becomes useless to try to use Growth to mitigate poploss and to "farm" your peasantry.

Any change that forces R'lyeh to limit Dom spread in order to maintain viability, will kill their ability to survive (the Temporal has a high Void resistance?). So ultimately, the mechanics need to work out so that R'lyeh can continue to function, while pushing their Dom outward. This means minimizing upkeep costs - or else there is no reason that they will not stagnate and wither away sooner than later.

Also, and probably too difficult to implement - it would likely help if normal "mortal" troop types simply stopped spawning altogether in any "barren" territories. Where are all of these Tritons coming from? No one lives there! :doh:

[Gregstrom]

I'd have thought the easy way to mitigate upkeep costs would be to keep sending your freespawn out to die in battle.

[konming]

I'd have thought the easy way to mitigate upkeep costs would be to keep sending your freespawn out to die in battle.

Except when you completely rule the sea, there are no one to fight for those aqua-only mad tritons.

[Sombre]

To an extent, the popkilling is going to help kill off the awful gold draining freespawn, by starving them all to death. This is especially true of the aquatic ones.

[vfb]

Too bad there are no hidden gold mines underwater to tax at 200%...

[rdonj]

Sombre has a good point.

Personally I think it would be more fun if R'lyeh's dominion would occasionally cause horrible creatures from the void to break loose and wreak havoc on their provinces, or assassinate commanders. Maybe generate horror attacks/marks. Their maximum number of candles could increase the chance of a random event happening, or just the chance of a random event being bad, say by 2% per candle. Or it could be a chance for an event completely seperate from luck events, to increase the chances of them happening.

I'm aware none of these will probably ever be implemented, they just seem like they could be a fun way to make life harder for R'lyeh :)

[Kristoffer O]

> Also, and probably too difficult to implement - it would likely help if normal "mortal" troop types simply stopped spawning altogether in any "barren" territories. Where are all of these Tritons coming from? No one lives there!

But people ARE living there, they just don't do anything except dream and sleep and stuff.

Reductions or removal of upkeep on dreamers is not an unthematic solution to the problem. Then they still starve and the economy as a whole will suffer some, but the dreamers do not demand anything for their services. They just dream after all.

[Edratman]

KO,

Unusual time for you to be on the boards. No school today? Or do you transform into some sort of (more) hideous creature on Halloween? :)

[Gregstrom]

I think it's actually KO's evil doppelganger posting. It only emerges on Samhain, and wreaks havok on dev schedules before disappearing for another year.

AFAIK KO only transforms on full moons - now if it were Halloween and a full moon there would be a really good reason to worry.

[Kristoffer O]

There is a november break in sweden this week. I was in Stockholm on some curriculum development (or whatever it is called) monday and tuesday, but I'm free now. I'll probably work some more on Jomon today, but I have some other matters to attend to as well.

[RonD]

Google can be quite helpful in interpreting KO's updates. 10/29 saw:

"A guardian god or spirit of a particular place in the Shinto religion"

"The guardians of the shrine gates"


And:

"Best hibachi and sushi in Dallas"


Finally, someplace for all those gluttons to get good sushi.

[Epaminondas]

When can we expect the patch to be released? :)

[Kristoffer O]

Unfortunately rather soon. JK want's it to be finished, but I want to include more stuff. The Jomon fix is only half done, so Jomon will likely be split by two patches.

On the positive side that means the next patch will probably be quicker.

[Psycho]

Kristoffer, since you are answering questions: is there any chance of altering shift+z shortcut to work with all types of gems and not just blood slaves?

[Spendios]

Any chance to see Muspelheim giants soon ? :D

[konming]

I was wonder if PageUp/PageDn/arrow keys will work on F1 screen and if it can remember its current position.

[Epaminondas]

Unfortunately rather soon. JK want's it to be finished, but I want to include more stuff. The Jomon fix is only half done, so Jomon will likely be split by two patches.

On the positive side that means the next patch will probably be quicker.

What's unfortunate for you is fortunate for me. Hurry on :)

[zzcat]

I have other ideas for Yomi, but they are a bit mechanics-heavy, meaning I must convince JK to make them, meaning he must shift focus from other projects. Thus I need to be quite clear on what I want. So for the time being I will work on coolifying Jomon. The coolifying is coming along quite nicely I'd say.

I have a dragon break, meaning I have quit drawing dragons for the time being. They need attack sprites, which is annoying since the originals took me quite some time to draw. Scaly bastards. I've moved to kami making. Jomon will have a nice number of sacred summons. Some shinto and some buddhist. Also there will be a couple of new monsters for Jomon, shinu and yomi. Some, like the shikome, will be restricted to yomi and possibly shinu I suspect.

Jomon will also recieve a couple of new recruits and some priestly spells if I can make mechanics out of some buddhist concepts.

Great news:) Finally we can see some buddhistic element in the east asia nations;)

[Kristoffer O]

Annoyingly enough the buddhist elements will not appear in this patch, due to JK's haste :) I've started on some descriptions etc, but likely there will only be kami in this patch. My major Jomon fix will also have to wait. :(

On the nice side. 'Geocast'Â*now works, meaning you can only summon Yama-no-kami in mountain provinces. Hidden in sand can get a fix too I suppose.

[Endoperez]

Annoyingly enough the buddhist elements will not appear in this patch, due to JK's haste :) I've started on some descriptions etc, but likely there will only be kami in this patch. My major Jomon fix will also have to wait. :(

On the nice side. 'Geocast' now works, meaning you can only summon Yama-no-kami in mountain provinces. Hidden in sand can get a fix too I suppose.

It's hard to feel sorry for you since the new patch adds such a cool feature, and JK's haste means that we'll get the feature sooner.

EDIT: never mind, Faery Trod already works as intended.

[Gregstrom]

Now visible on the patch page: Version 3.21

And an extra fix to BEs as well.

[Bwaha]

Hi, I can't find the new patch 3.21. Is it out? When I go to the Dominions 3 page it shows 3.20 as the latest patch.:confused:

[rdonj]

Patch 3.21 is not out yet. Rather, these are upcoming changes that will be released with the next patch or two

[archaeolept]

http://members.arstechnica.com/x/archaeolept/do-want.jpg

[JimMorrison]

Hi, I can't find the new patch 3.21. Is it out? When I go to the Dominions 3 page it shows 3.20 as the latest patch.:confused:

Odd numbered patches are "beta" patches, undergoing brief testing before the even numbered patch is released to us.

I can't remember the story of how we ended up getting 3.17, but the ill-fated performance fix pushed us to 3.2 from there.....

[Edi]

Hi, I can't find the new patch 3.21. Is it out? When I go to the Dominions 3 page it shows 3.20 as the latest patch.:confused:

Odd numbered patches are "beta" patches, undergoing brief testing before the even numbered patch is released to us.

I can't remember the story of how we ended up getting 3.17, but the ill-fated performance fix pushed us to 3.2 from there.....
Going from 3.17 to 3.20 had nothing to do with the performance boost fix that was reverted, because that concerned v3.17 only, as you can see from the progress page.

[VedalkenBear]

A couple of things:

Re: Samurai Armor.. how bulky and encumbering it is depends entirely on what time period you're looking at. Early 'samurai' armor was full lamellar scale armor, adopted from Mongolian armor (this would be around 500 AD). Later samurai armor (such as used in the Warring States period and in almost all popular samurai drama) had a very different purpose. It has the famous paneled look because it tried to deflect projectiles rather than anything in melee. Presumably if you were fighting in melee, it was a test of skill rather than metallurgy. :p Thus, the primary factor in late period functional samurai armor was to leave the samurai mobile. Thus, it was incredibly light.

You could actually model this in Dominions with a low-prot armor that granted Air Shield.

As for the other Sinuyomijomon changes, very cool. KO, I volunteer my services for helping with fleshing them out. I note that almost all Buddhist elements in Jomon are esoteric. Are there any plans on importing the more popular Buddhist sects (like the Amida cult) into Dom3? I would think the Celebrant event could be modified quite well to show this, if nothing else.

[zzcat]

Hmm...Which element of Amida cult can be importing to a fantasy war game? there are neither monsters nor powerful mages. At best you can create some zealot for Daimyo era and a priest who can reduce unrest automatically for Shinu/Jomon and MA/LA TC:). But it's not very funny IMO.

Vajrayana is much easier to present in game because it has tons of demons and sprites and rituals. Many Buddhist in old times of Japan who believe in Amida believe in it too, and it's accepted by the emperor and most mongolese officers in Yuan dynasty of China. Anyway, too many tantric elements in LA nation may be inconsonant to the theme.

I think Zen masters with astral magic and clear mind(resistance to R'yleh's dominion) may be interesting. Making them first appear in MA TC(may be heretic) but stronger in LA TC and Jomon.

About samurai armor. IIRC the Yumi(Japanese bow) is among the worst bows of the world, With the length of English long bow(many of them are even longer than 200cm), they have unbelievable short range(70 meters). So no shield is needed in ancient Japan and the banboo armor "to deflect the arrow" is very simple and only used by lower class warrior. All Daimyos and generals weared heavy armor.

[VedalkenBear]

zzcat: As I said, the Amida cult was the first really populist Buddhist sect in Japan. I contrast this to the earlier esoteric sects, of which the Onmyoji in Jomon is the best representative. As such, a 'flavoring' of the Celebrant event could be used to show this representation.

And the yumi was not a 'weak bow', at least the ones that the samurai used from horseback. After all, the samurai began as exactly the kind of mounted archer that dominated the medieval period in Asia. I am not sure exactly your source for your information, but it runs counter to everything I know about Japanese warfare.

I will point out as well that early Japanese warriors, proto-samurai if you will, did indeed use shields.

In the popular(ist?) version of samurai that has filtered to the west, samurai are foot soldiers, master of the katana, that disdained ranged combat. This does not exist until the middle Warring States period (1530 or so), and coincides with the rise of gunpowder technology in Japan. At this point, you might be correct, but everything said about arrows goes equally for guns: it is much easier to deflect than absorb, at least at the velocities and accuracy that early guns could achieve.

Before this time, though, the information is simply incorrect.

[zzcat]

After all, the samurai began as exactly the kind of mounted archer that dominated the medieval period in Asia.
I think you are talking about Mongol horsemen, not samurai:)

I tried to google some English infomation about Yumi just a minute ago. Thousands of webpages are found but few of them even mentioned the effective killing range of classic yumi. Most of them are talking about Kyudo and self perfecting, I think it's pointless for westerner to care about its practical performance:sick:.

Anyway, two webpages are found when I search "japanese bow+effective range"
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Samurai#Weapons
http://www.samurai-archives.com/ste.html
The first one said the yumi's effective range is 50 meters or less, and the second said it's only mere 30 meters.

In fact Japanese bow is still quite deadly at short range because japanese archers are very skilled at point-blank shooting and the heavy arrowhead can penetrate through some armor, but it depend on personal training, and point-blank shoot do little help in big battle.

[mac5732]

I don't have a problem with the changes in MP play. BUT... a lot of us play mostly SP and weakening or cutting back on the more stronger races DOES AFFECT play in SP. SP needs super races for us sp players to go up against. I know there will be those who disagree, BUT.. MP is not the only style gamers play.. SP must be taken into account as well and to weaken races in order to balance MP just unbalances SP to point its no longer fun to play.. Therefore, I would like to see the changes where MP is affected.. as an option leaving SP untouched or at least slightly modified. This way both MP and SP players could at least be pairable. You can't affect l without affecting the other... IMHO

[JimMorrison]

I know there will be those who disagree, BUT.. MP is not the only style gamers play.. SP must be taken into account as well and to weaken races in order to balance MP just unbalances SP to point its no longer fun to play..


Well, another voice for this side of the coin. ;)

When most balancing is done through cost increases, I have 1 question, and an elegant solution.

First, do you already play with all AI on Impossible?

If not, then you can already rebalance cost increases by increasing difficulty. If you do play exclusively on Impossible, then I would think that the best solution overall would be to allow MP balancing to continue to take place largely through cost changes in units, but to ask for another difficulty level to be implemented. Of all of the changes that are requested for the game, adding another step to the difficulty scale should be utterly trivial.

Though, I would hope that even a minuscule amount of AI direction as to gem searching and gem use, would go a LONG way to making the computer more fearsome. For example, if they got some sort of mild, free, Arcane Probing effect in their dominion (not the mage hunting part, just the site finding part), it would automate their site searching in a way that they could compete in gem income more readily, and actually cast more globals/rituals.

[rdonj]

(ignore this post)

[rdonj]

As to the yumi debate. I went and looked up longbows and got a hit from wikipedia with ranges to compare against the Yumi.

Now, the bottom site you listed stated that the Yumi has a "killing range" of 30 meters, and a maximum range of 380 meters. Comparing this to what wikipedia has to say, a 160-180 lb english longbow had a range between 165 and 228 meters, and that "An archer could hit a person at 165 m (180 yards) "part of the time" and could always hit an army." (not cited). Someone with a Mary Rose replica longbow was able to shoot an arrow as far as 328 meters(cited). The article also states "The longbow had a long range and high accuracy, but not both at the same time. Modern champion archers maintain that a hit cannot be guaranteed on an individual target at more than 75 m (80 yards) with any bow whatsoever." (not cited)

Though a lot of that information is uncited, even the highest figure for the longbow is lower than that of the yumi, and that one is cited.

Also what must be considered is what is actually meant in the teppou article by "killing range". This sounds like an incredibly useless sort of figure to me. Is it the range at which an archer is considered more than likely to kill the enemy? Is it the range at which an archer is more than likely to hit an enemy with a shot that will disable them? Is it the range at which they are more than likely to penetrate the opponents armor? Hit them? To me it sounds most likely to be the first option. An effective range of 50 meters as is stated in the other article you linked is believable for shooting directly at a target rather than volleying. Personally, I struggle to land arrows accurately at 40 meters with a modern compound bow, but I am a terrible archer and have not spent a lifetime learning how to shoot.

[zzcat]

"effective killing range" just means "effective range". That is the range you may really do some serious damage with the bow. Refering to "The Evolution Of Weapons And Warfare"(T.N.Dupuy, 1986), English longbow has an effective range about 250 yards. Others have their estimation between 180 and 250.

Again, the accuracy of point-blank shooting does little in a battle. volleying rain of arrows to an army is the only thing to do in most of the time. Anyway, as we know, the standard distance between the mato and the archer is only 28 meters.

I think it's not polite to discuss OT content in this thread. Perhaps we should stop here or move to other place:).

[AreaOfEffect]

Maybe I don't play enough early-age games, but my most recent view of Yomi makes me believe that they can be extremely competitive as-is. My personal feeling is that a few elements within the faction overshadow the multitude of weapons and tactics they have at their disposal. The first being the Dia Oni's physical chassis and the other being throw flames.

[VedalkenBear]

After all, the samurai began as exactly the kind of mounted archer that dominated the medieval period in Asia.
I think you are talking about Mongol horsemen, not samurai:)

This shows that you don't know the origins of the samurai. As I state above, Samurai began as _exactly_ the mounted archer that Mongol horsemen were. After all, the actual _training_ of the samurai was known as the 'Way of Horse and Bow'. Note what is present in that, and what is missing.

If you think of a samurai as a dismounted warrior wielding the katana, you are thinking of someone that only existed from the middle of the 1500s on. Samurai certainly existed in Japan for 500 years before that, and it is arguable for how long before that 'proto-samurai' existed (at least 200 years, in some people's estimate).

Please try to refer to the period when you say the word 'samurai', because it makes a very large difference. At different times, they were horse archers (before ~1530), highly pragmatic elite dismounted swordsmen (~1530-1600), and highly idealistic administrators (1600-1868).

If you would like to read a good book on the history of the samurai, you can check out Farris's Heavenly Warriors.

[chrispedersen]

Maybe I don't play enough early-age games, but my most recent view of Yomi makes me believe that they can be extremely competitive as-is. My personal feeling is that a few elements within the faction overshadow the multitude of weapons and tactics they have at their disposal. The first being the Dia Oni's physical chassis and the other being throw flames.

No, there are a dozen races I can win with, but Yomi has too many weakneses. If you don't even script the flame throwing yomis - they *won't*. Aka, I've seen them just close to combat without tossing flames- on more than one occassion. Really pathetic.

Kristoffer tried yomi, I think to get a feel of how bad they were, and had his clock cleaned - like immediately.

Yomi just needs a few tweaks - and it could be a fun and interesting race... Why do yomi ghosts *not* need undead leadership by the way....

One of the niggling little annoyances - now I readily agree you can't impose that on the nation - but I do think demon priests should be undead.

[Trumanator]

Whenever I've played Yomi I never have issues with them not throwing flames. The thing is though that their precision is so abysmal that the Ao Onis tend to be better, because their cold attack is melee. Plus they're cheaper, for about the same stats IIRC. The demon priest is supposed to be a priest FOR the demons, not a demon himself.

[chrispedersen]

Whenever I've played Yomi I never have issues with them not throwing flames. The thing is though that their precision is so abysmal that the Ao Onis tend to be better, because their cold attack is melee. Plus they're cheaper, for about the same stats IIRC. The demon priest is supposed to be a priest FOR the demons, not a demon himself.

I understand, I've heard the arguments before. Bless me father <crunch> My that was a pleasant lunch.

My point I was trying to make is that usually ghosts require undead leadership or they go poof. I haven't observed that behaviour in onis.

And you can't really put it on them, as it would be a significant weakness.

[Gregstrom]

They'd only go poof if mindless, otherwise I'm pretty sure they'd just flee. And I believe they do require undead leadership, as they're tagged as undead. Thing is, if you're leading oni into a fight you already have undead leadership because the live form are demons.

[Kristoffer O]

Patch is available now.

[Bwaha]

Hi, I have a question, is this a beta patch? I thought beta's ended in a odd number, and the real patches ended with a even number.:confused: And by the way, Thanks for a great game.:D

[Johan K]

We don't have any such system, unless it happened by accident. I wonder what version number the patches got.

3.01, 3.06, 3.08, 3.10, 3.14, 3.15, 3.17, 3.20, 3.21

So (including this) we got 4 odd and 5 even numbered.

[lch]

Patch 3.04 is missing in there. So until 3.15, it definitely looked that way. :)
Let's just say those were 3.16 and 3.18... ;)

[HoneyBadger]

Yes, the best, most efficient systems are always created after the fact :)

[Zeldor]

R'lyeh nerfs seems to be really big exaggeration. 2x would be enough to really weaken them [and fresspawn should be 0 upkeep anyyway],

[WraithLord]

Patch is available now.

Awesome. Thank you!

My favorite fix are the ninja cheaters hunters. I'm sure they will save much frustration to players :D

[Endoperez]

R'lyeh nerfs seems to be really big exaggeration. 2x would be enough to really weaken them [and fresspawn should be 0 upkeep anyyway],

Test first, complain later. ;)

[llamabeast]

R'lyeh is so ridiculously overpowered that I'm sure it'll be a good thing.

[Sombre]

Did we get the temple and lab cost mod commands in this patch? I don't think we did.

[Endoperez]

Modding.pdf has the commands:

13.1.13 #labcost <price>
Gold cost for building a lab. The default is 500.
13.1.14 #templecost <price>
Gold cost for building a temple The default is 400.

[Sombre]

Ah, excellent.

100 gold temples for Ogres, here we come.

[rdonj]

Ah, excellent.

100 gold temples for Ogres, here we come.

Oh dear god :eek:

[Sombre]

What? You act as if that's overpowered!

[rdonj]

Having seen what kind of effect ogre sacrificing can have on a limited scale, I can say I find the prospect terrifying. Especially with all the new dom-pushing techniques they're gaining.

:help:

[lch]

He wanted to have them at 50 gold before...

[Tifone]

"Temples! $1 temples! Would you like a temple sir? One for the child? One temple and chips $1.50!! One temple and a drink $3!!" :D

[Humakty]

Well, regarding ogre background, I think 50 gold is a bit much for a pile of skull.

[rdonj]

But, um, they have to get their slaughtermasters to do so much ritualistic chewing?

[vfb]

Yomi should get the 50 gold temples! Just tie an old rope around a tree or rock and there ya go ... instant temple. No gilded statues or marble plinths here. If you want to make it a really super-official temple, then you just need to add 3 logs and some orange paint.

[Sombre]

Having seen what kind of effect ogre sacrificing can have on a limited scale, I can say I find the prospect terrifying.

What, you mean maintaining dominion at slightly less than that of an average normal nation for the cost of several slaves a turn?

Terrifying!

I won't put them at a low value if people can identify how it would actually make them overpowered.

[JimMorrison]

Yomi should get the 50 gold temples! Just tie an old rope around a tree or rock and there ya go ... instant temple. No gilded statues or marble plinths here. If you want to make it a really super-official temple, then you just need to add 3 logs and some orange paint.

50 pounds of gold for an old rope and 3 logs? Well damn, get your temples right here! Old rope and a few logs, get em while they're hot!

[Sombre]

Don't be fooled by any old rope and 3 logs!

Here at Sombre's Rope and 3 Logs Emporium (est. 2008) we will meet all your Rope and 3 Logs needs at prices so low you'll probably get cancer from them!

For just 40 gold get your Rope and 3 Logs!

[Tichy]

Well, by that logic, why does shoving a shield and spear in a peasant's hand and saying "militia!" cost 7 pounds of gold?

[MaxWilson]

Most of the 50 gold cost goes toward paying for building permits. Same thing for the spear-guy militia: it's 7 gp for certification. More expensive troops (Vanir infantry) have more complicated forms which require greater expertise to fill out.

-Max

[Gregstrom]

Well, by that logic, why does shoving a shield and spear in a peasant's hand and saying "militia!" cost 7 pounds of gold?

Healthcare plan, life insurance, and paying for the press gang.

[Trumanator]

Don't forget the signing bonus

[Tifone]

And why not to mention that 15% of the gems you pay for an unique summon actually go to his/her/its press agent? :p

[Alneyan]

You might be able to argue that the gold cost for recruiting a militia is actually the cost of taking a peasant out of the fields, meaning less gold is produced... that's assuming there's no unemployment in the world of Dominions, and no way for the bosses to make the remaining peasants work harder to make up for the lack of manpower, or...

Now introducing "The economics of being a menial worker in the world of Dominions, or 'And you thought working in a call center was bad'".

[rdonj]

What, you mean maintaining dominion at slightly less than that of an average normal nation for the cost of several slaves a turn?

Terrifying!

I won't put them at a low value if people can identify how it would actually make them overpowered.

Are you sure it really is that little? I've only ever gotten one domkill victory playing dominions, and I got it as the ogres playing against the skaven. I had 4 or 5 temples and gave my ogres jade knives to sacrifice faster, and domkilled them before my armies ever got near their capital. I was a much worse player back then but my armies were doing a fair job of killing theirs. Hmm, maybe they had normal domspread back then. In any case I don't actually know if it would be overpowered, but from my experience it seems as though it would probably be very powered.

[Sombre]

Just look at the score graphs in warhammerama. I don't have jade knives, but that dominion is the result of 6+ slaves a turn for quite a while. It would be more, but I haven't had the resources to spare.

Also, domkilling an AI and domkilling a human are completely different beasts. The AI may well have taken garbage dom strength with the skaven too.

[rdonj]

I suppose you're right. A player is certainly going to use priests to mitigate a lot of it, anyway. It probably isn't too big of an issue with someone like the ogres with a dying dominion, but I don't know. It depends on how they interact with the dominion spreading summons later I think.

[calmon]

Some more misterious ;) update from the dev page:

15th november
* Monk of the Fivefold Path.
* Signs of the Fivefold Path.

[Nounours]

Possibly linked to Fivefold Angel ? It would be for Bogarus then...

[BesucherXia]

Could that be related to MA_Bogarus? New races are always welcomed.

[Gregstrom]

I'd go with the rest of the Jomon update, myself.

[Meglobob]

If you want to make it a really super-official temple, then you just need to add 3 logs and some orange paint.

Tried that but a silly Bakemono kept wondering in with a lit torch. Made a lovely camp fire and the orange paint made it feel so much warmer.

So...back to the 400gp stone temples then?

[Herode]

I've just noticed in a current SP game that the combat following an assassination attempt is henceforth labbeled as "(special)" in the message log. I didn't noticed that before, I suppose it's a new feature of the last patch ? Anyway, such improvements are welcome, global GUI ergonomy being the last weak point of this otherwise overgreat game.
Thanks to the devs for the work they are making ! :p

[JimMorrison]

I think the (special) tag is only for assassinations stemming from events, they were always like that.

Wasn't there a problem in the past with the "traders guild set up in your temple" type of events not properly giving income? It had seemed they weren't doing anything for me before, but in SP tests I've had those events a few times, and I see clear benefit now, awesome! :D Score 1 for Luck scales, eh?


And that Fivefold Path stuff may also be something for T'ien Ch'i, a successor to the "Five Elements". KO delights in making us wonder. :p

[Kristoffer O]

The Fivefold Path is a paraphrase on the Eightfold path of Buddhism, combined with the previous TC concept of the Way of the Five Elements. Thus Jomon Stuff.

[Herode]

I think the (special) tag is only for assassinations stemming from events, they were always like that.
OK. I never was this event before but it happened twice in a few SP turns recently.
I pray the probability of the event has not been raised too much... Ninjas, what a pain in the neck :doh:

[Tifone]

Ninjas, what a pain in the neck :doh:

You tell us? Tell this guy:

http://imgboot.com/images/Tifone/ninjakarate.jpg

PURE (OR POOR?) GENIUS :D

[hunt11]

pure genius :D

[JimMorrison]

I hope whoever took that picture gave him $4. I'd hate to know we got our laughs from someone who is dead now, because he couldn't afford proper training.

[Tifone]

If he just wrote the address of his Dojo we could have passed the hat and sent him... ;)

[HoneyBadger]

I ought to introduce him to my dad--he actually did study ninjitsu for a while, back in the '60s, and he's currently unemployed. And yes, my dad really can beat up your dad. :p

[Loren]

R'lyeh is so ridiculously overpowered that I'm sure it'll be a good thing.

Well, the AI can't cope with it. I was just playing a game where R'lyeh was in it and he didn't get very far at all. He started in the SE lake of Glory of the Gods, managed to get a few provinces in the second lake but got driven back by Mictlan. (All were impossible AI's.)

[HoneyBadger]

R'yleh doesn't particularly strike me as a Nation that necessarily *should* be easy for the SP to play. Atleast in the non-ideal AI state that we operate in, currently. What I mean by that is that it ought to be more subtle, and less straight-forward than most of the other Nations. It's like Mictlan with blood-hunting, or Caelum, they can be very powerful, but you have to really think about what you're doing with them.

[Sombre]

Well, the AI can't cope with it. I was just playing a game where R'lyeh was in it and he didn't get very far at all. He started in the SE lake of Glory of the Gods, managed to get a few provinces in the second lake but got driven back by Mictlan. (All were impossible AI's.)

Was the AI ever good with Rlyeh? In the SP I've played in LA they've never expanded much beyond the water, which is pretty pathetic given their power.

[HoneyBadger]

A lot of the Nations considered very powerful are very powerful because users have developed winning strategies for them. Look at Marverni--Noone's going to consider Marverni a pushover now, post Baalz' strategy guide. Before, apparently, they were pretty pathetic. Even a Nation like Niefelheim-arguably the single most powerful Nation in the game, at this point-doesn't come into it's own unless it's got a good bless strategy, coupled with human sneakiness. The AI can play it pretty strongly, as a blunt instrument, but it's easy enough to outwit.

[Amhazair]

I'm going to ressurect this thread a bit. (After all, I picked the name Amhazair from an old and memorable necromancer roleplay character, so it's an appropiate thing for me to do.:))

It's been a while now since this patch got released, but in that time I have yet to play with or against the slightly revamped Hinnom and the severly affected R'lyeh. I would be grateful if people who do have first hand experience could fill me in on what they feel were the balance effects of the changes. (I especially fear for R'lyeh, since I do have a soft spot for them. Not many people have argued that they shouldn't be taken a notch or two, but I'm afraid about how hard this patch in question hit them.)

[archaeolept]

heh, your topic is necro as well, as it concerns the effects of the previous patch, not even the latest one ;p

I haven't played LA R'lyeh, but I understand that they have been considerably snipped due to heavy income loss from popkill (and forced upkeep from freespawns?). I'd guess that they are a fairly marginal power now, but no one has taken up the cause of showing how to make them work.

I was playing Hinnom when the patch hit. It goes a long way to making them reasonable - I'd say Hinnom is certainly weaker than Niefl in the early game. Hinnom's starting army is now reasonable (6 swordsmen and 6 LI), and you need to be careful expanding. Gone are the days of just blindly having your initial army conquer indies for 10 turns straight ;p
Some of their units were upped in price, as well.

also, Hinnom bloodhunting now causes something like double unrest. It is pretty irritating :)

They're still strong, but in no way would I consider banning them from a game for being over-powered (unlike Ashdod, who should be). They're still an EA powerhouse, but one amongst many.

[NTJedi]

I'm going to ressurect this thread a bit. (After all, I picked the name Amhazair from an old and memorable necromancer roleplay character, so it's an appropiate thing for me to do.:))



It would have been better to create a new topic specific to your interests since this topic will first have many gamers checking to see if there's new info on the patch page... considering the title of this topic is called: "Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page! " .