OB15 Autralia and New Zealand - comment

[TDR]

Small comment:
ANZAC OOB : The pre 1940 Inf Coys - formations 003, 004 & 005
There was no formal AIF/NZEF till late 1939, about October 39 for both countries.
So is it relevant to have these in place pre Oct 1939?

Hence for “reality”, formations 003, 004 & 005 should not exist till at best Oct 39, ie AIF/NZEF Infantry Coys.
It may though be an inconvenient thing to implement with any what if type scenario.

AMF/CMF Coys formations 260 262 &264
The pre 40 units AMF did not reflect the then British structure. The AIF and NZEF reformed to reflect the British structure late Dec 39/ Jan 40 when they arrived in Egypt. Prior to that they had the same structure as the militia, (AMF for Australia).
This was:

Coy HQ
2 Offr, 17 ORs
Inf Pls x 4 as:
Pl HQ
1 offr 5 Ors
1 x 2” mor (when issued if available)
Rifle Sect x 2 as
7 OR – rifle
LMG Sect x 2 as
7 OR
1 x LMG (Lewis gun)

In 1939 the 2 inch mor was more of an establishment value item than actually an issued one as there were none till the AIF/NZEF landed in Egypt

In late, Dec 1939, there was an order issued in Australia to move the AIF Inf Bns to the current British structure. This was not implemented till the start of 1940 when the AIF took on the British Bn/coy structure. 6 Div was the first to be converted. AMF units did not till much later. This later adoption was due to equipment availability.

In 1941 there was further restructure with the AMF and an Inf Coy looked like:
Coy HQ
2 Offr, 5 ORs
Inf Pls x 3 as:
Pl HQ
1 offr 5 Ors
1 x 2” mor (when issued if available)
1 x AT Rifle (when issued if available)
Rifle Sect x 3 as
1 x LMG (Lewis or Bren depending on the “battalion’s grading as more Brens were available the Lewis was fully withdrawn.)
10 or 11 ORs

The AMF Bn was different to the AIF Bn at this time, but the coys were looking like each other structure wise. Training and equipment was the significant difference.

In 1944 there was a further complete restructure of both AIF and AMF. This brought them fully inline. It was based on 3 Divisional structures, that were, Inf Tropical, Inf Normal and Armoured.
Inf tropical and Inf Normal Bns were different but the only formal difference between a tropical and normal Coy was transport. A Normal Pl had local transport, 1 truck.

The AMF/CMF coys did not have 3inch mor sects or MMG sects embedded as an organisational structure. They were allocated to the Coy based on operational needs.


Mg Coys – formation 1056
These were formed in late 39 as indicated in the OOB.

Org as:
Coy HQ
2 Offrs, 24 Ors
Mg Plat x 3 as
Pl HQ
1 offr, 8 Ors
MG Sect x 2 as
16 Ors
2 x MMG

There was no 3 inch mor establishment to these Coys, nor within the MG Bns.

Ref
1. ‘Redcoats to Cams, History of the Australian Infantry 1788 – 2001’, Ian Kuring, Australian Army history Unit, 2004.

2. Infantry Minor Tactics – Australia, 1941, Notified in AAOs dated 31 Dec 1941.

3. Official War Diaries HQ 6 Div AIF, (GS Branch), Australian War Museum.


Now whether it is worth implementing this is a different issue as it may have side effects on current scenarios.

[Mobhack]

The AMF/CMF coys did not have 3inch mor sects or MMG sects embedded as an organisational structure. They were allocated to the Coy based on operational needs.

This seems to be a misunderstanding of the various Commonwealth companies that are provided in the game with Bn support company troops already provided attached down under coy command for end-user convenience. It saves faffing about with the cross attach function (that was not available in any case in the early days of the game). They are not "embedded" elements.

As to the rest, it is probably a bit too complicated for a small OOB that is already compromised by merging 2 countries and also trying to cover 2 entirely different theatres. But we will look into seeing if there is some way to do some of this, without a complete rewrite of the AI pick list etc.

Andy

[Mobhack]

AMF/CMF Coys formations 260 262 &264
The pre 40 units AMF did not reflect the then British structure. The AIF and NZEF reformed to reflect the British structure late Dec 39/ Jan 40 when they arrived in Egypt. Prior to that they had the same structure as the militia, (AMF for Australia).
This was:

Coy HQ
2 Offr, 17 ORs
Inf Pls x 4 as:
Pl HQ
1 offr 5 Ors
1 x 2” mor (when issued if available)
Rifle Sect x 2 as
7 OR – rifle
LMG Sect x 2 as
7 OR
1 x LMG (Lewis gun)

In 1939 the 2 inch mor was more of an establishment value item than actually an issued one as there were none till the AIF/NZEF landed in Egypt

There may be a case here for these being treated as a WW1 type formation of 2 large half-platoon lumps of 16-17 men (like the Poles are for example) with 1 mg per half-platoon division.

The 2 inch mortar can be ignored. (I know we ignored ours and left them in the armoury along with other useless junk like 9mm browning pistols)

Cheers
Andy

[TDR]

Thanks Andy,
Yes a possible misunderstanding on coy composition with other elements being added as support.

My point though was that MG Bns which is where the MG Coy will be derived from did not have a mortar component at all. Hence there could not be a case of additional support as such. The Mors could not come via Div or Brigade as these did not hold independent units of mortars.

A standard Inf Bn 1940 on, British or commonwealth, did not have a MG Coy within the organisational structure. In the Aust 1939 organisation here was a support coy which had 4 MG Pls and each held 4 MMgs. The British organisation of the same period and introduced to the Aust org, 1940 implemented the carrier Pl. This then held 13 MMGs but its role was not the same as that of the MG Bn coy formations.

The Carrier Pl either operated independently, similar to the Div Cav Regts or would be split and allocated to each of the Inf coys within the Bn to provide MMG support.
Hence the concepts of MG Coy would be derived from the MG Bns not the Inf Bns.

The AMF/CMF coys did not have 3inch mor sects or MMG sects embedded as an organisational structure. They were allocated to the Coy based on operational needs.

This seems to be a misunderstanding of the various Commonwealth companies that are provided in the game with Bn support company troops already provided attached down under coy command for end-user convenience. It saves faffing about with the cross attach function (that was not available in any case in the early days of the game). They are not "embedded" elements.

As to the rest, it is probably a bit too complicated for a small OOB that is already compromised by merging 2 countries and also trying to cover 2 entirely different theatres. But we will look into seeing if there is some way to do some of this, without a complete rewrite of the AI pick list etc.

Andy

[TDR]

That is a possible approach. The organisation in early 39 was still based on the WWI approaches to some degree.
The 2 inch mor was on establishment but since there was none about it was a paper piece and hence if left out would not make much of a difference anyway.
So since it did not really exist you could not leave it in the armoury. :D

Frome some of my readings it seems that the 2 inch mor did not arrive in quantity even in AIF units till into 1940 so it is a minor item

AMF/CMF Coys formations 260 262 &264
The pre 40 units AMF did not reflect the then British structure. The AIF and NZEF reformed to reflect the British structure late Dec 39/ Jan 40 when they arrived in Egypt. Prior to that they had the same structure as the militia, (AMF for Australia).
This was:

Coy HQ
2 Offr, 17 ORs
Inf Pls x 4 as:
Pl HQ
1 offr 5 Ors
1 x 2” mor (when issued if available)
Rifle Sect x 2 as
7 OR – rifle
LMG Sect x 2 as
7 OR
1 x LMG (Lewis gun)

In 1939 the 2 inch mor was more of an establishment value item than actually an issued one as there were none till the AIF/NZEF landed in Egypt

There may be a case here for these being treated as a WW1 type formation of 2 large half-platoon lumps of 16-17 men (like the Poles are for example) with 1 mg per half-platoon division.

The 2 inch mortar can be ignored. (I know we ignored ours and left them in the armoury along with other useless junk like 9mm browning pistols)

Cheers
Andy

[TDR]

Armoured cars.
Possibly a pedantic point and may not be really necessary on the implementation stage. So possibly treat it as comment/query/historical point more than a must have request change

In the OOB the Rolls Royce AC is listed as from Jan 1930 to Mar 1942. The only units that I know of that were using this vehicle to any great extent were the RAF units.
This vehicle was not used by the Aust Div Cav Units, or the NZ Div Cav Unit. These were the only armoured units from Aust and NZ in North Africa and Middle East.
The Rolls Royce AC was not part of AS or NZ home defence either.

I realise the vehicle can be considered as being “British manned” for scenario use.

The initial Aust Div Cav Regt, 6 Div only had Bren gun carriers and at best some 8/15 cwt Morris vehicles and several 4x2 general vehicles. Also the number of carriers was only sufficient initially for one Sqn.

The NZ Cav Regt was a bit better and had carriers and MK IIIs
Before going to Greece the NZ Div Cav were reissued carriers, (that worked fully), and new Marmom-Harrington ACs.
When the NZ Div Ca returned to Egypt after Greece and Crete they were issued carriers and Mk VI’s tanks.

Simple question, would it be possible to include the Marmom-Harrington ACs in the ANZAC OOB to cover this period?

These would be either the Marmom-Harrington II or III ACs.

Part ref:
“Divisional Cavalry “, Loughnan, R. J. M.; Historical Publications Branch, 1963, Wellington : Part of: The Official History of New Zealand in the Second World War 1939–1945

“To The Green Fields Beyond - The story of the 6 Division Cavalry Commandos”, S O’leary, 1975