Death scale on Abyssia

[licker]

It would seem appropriate still, but how bad does it really mess with with old age?

And how much does it run down your blood economy before you realyl get it started?

[vfb]

I'm playing MA Aby in a game right now, with Death-3. I think it's important to take Luck-3 too, to avoid horrible events. Luck-3 scales with itself: you get more events, and they are better. And when your population is all dead, you'll still have the luck income.

There has been no impact at all on getting my blood economy started. I'm suspecting that it'll hit me harder down the road. So I've just got to make sure that I've got some provinces that I can expand into.

You'll get some expensive units diseased in Late Winter, but with N4 on your god you can make shrouds. Another option is to teleport any diseased Warlocks to the front lines, and use Astral Healing in battle to restore their HP.

[Dragar]

Never been brave enough to try on either count! Old age is definitely an issue for abysian mages though

[K]

This seems to be one of those "the theme has nothing to do with the actual play."

You need high pops for resources for all your troops and for blood hunting, and for the gold to buy your expensive troops and to offset provinces set to no taxes because of the blood hunting. You have old fire mages. You can spread your Dominion really well with Blood sacrifices.

None of that says "take Death."

In fact, I'd argue that the theme is more "can survive in someone else's bad Death Dominion."

[Endoperez]

The Death scale immunity is old, dating back to the first game of the series. Old age is new to Dom3. The two mechanics don't work properly together. Personally, I don't think it'd be unbalanced to make Abysia immune to increased old age afflictions from Death scale.

[Deadnature]

I agree, taking death for Abysia is, well, a death-wish. The one game that I took death scales had my mages dropping like flies at their lab-tables. Ironically, growth can be a very useful trait for Abysia, more-so in MA because almost all of their mages are old.

[vfb]

Oh, you unthematic no-fun people. Just take the damned deaths when they come and suck it up! K, you're always on about people not using their mages in combat ... well, when they've got 3 months to live, it's additional incentive to get them to the front lines. :)

And what's wrong with a death wish? It's a doomed race! The land that burns brightest burns fastest, or something along those lines anyway.

[WaltF4]

I feel that EA and MA Abyssia having nothing but capital-only blood mages is more disruptive then having growth scales. I guess I spoiled myself blood hunting with Mictlan prior to playing less able nations.

[cleveland]

With recruitable blood mages, there should be no problem stopping the old-age problems via Boots of Youth.

Growth has always seemed like a tough sell to me: the primary benefit of growth (compound interest population increase) only really starts to pay off just toward the endgame, just in time for Black Death and Armageddon. The landscape is going to be a nuclear wasteland; get your money upfront with Order and later on with Luck.

[licker]

If you are taking order and luck you are minimizing the usefulness of luck, and if you also take death you are minimizing the usefulness of order (mid/late game).

Seems to me it would be interesting to look at T3P3H3L3D3 and whatever you can pull in magic/drain depending on what points you have left.

Of course T3 is painful early game if you don't get some BIG luck events to even it out, but then again you can alchemize your fire gems if you really need to.

Alternatively don't take T3, just keep it neutral and drop your production back to 1 or 2. I would imagine that early game you are hurting more for production than gold, and luck cannot help (well not as often anyway) with production as it can with gold.

I'm also pretty sure that the best bless to take is E9, and not so sure you really need anyother bless at all, which makes an awake cyclops interesting as if you nab a dom9 you can just plow through indies like mad (other than knights). Taking an awake scorpian king is also interesting as you can fairly easilly sneak in a f4.

Then again you don't have much magic diversity (in any age I think), but what do you really need the diversity for again? Blood and Astral are already givens, and those can form the backbone of any mid/late game strategy. Nature might be nice, but nature is really easy to pick up with indies. Death is probably the one with the most potential synergy for you, but meh, I wouldn't necessarily just take it on a pretender for a few extra blood summons.

[cleveland]

If you are taking order and luck you are minimizing the usefulness of luck

Perhaps you aren't maximizing the benefits of good luck, but you are minimizing the damage of bad luck, which - particularly with a Death scale - can be much more useful.

[licker]

If you are taking order and luck you are minimizing the usefulness of luck

Perhaps you aren't maximizing the benefits of good luck, but you are minimizing the damage of bad luck, which - particularly with a Death scale - can be much more useful.

I was under the impression that many of the D3 events were also tied to misfortune scales, so taking L3 (or just not misfortune) would be some protection anyway.

Pity Abyssia has no fortune tellers I guess.

In any case, D3O3 seems a bad combo just due to the fact that they cancel the benefits of each other out, especailly later in the game, and especially for a blood nation.

Well I suppose we'll need some actual empirical evidence though ;)

I should note that I've played alot of LA Ulm with T3L3 (though no death) and not had much of an issue with negative events. However, LAUlm does have fortune tellers, but I have them concentrated in only a few provinces anyway.

[JimMorrison]

While you get less events overall with Order+Luck, I'm not so sure it "minimizes" the benefits of a Luck scale. Granted, you are less likely to strike it rich early in the game, but the synergy simply matures later in the game - and there is a synergy.

I fought a D3 Abysia a few games ago, and it was hell. Of course, I was Caelum (under other circumstances, Caelum is devastating to Abysia), so H3+D3 meant that many provinces have 10-20 supply. With no national access to Nature, all my little birdies were diseased by the time I had taken just a handful of territories. So I think that the disincentive towards attacking Abysia, as well as the protection afforded from counter attacks (he was the aggressor, I annihilated his main force, and then fell apart in his Dominion), are factors that shouldn't be discounted.

Ironically, I think that the D3 with Abysia requires a specific strategy, involving high starting Dominion, rapid Dominion pushing early in the game, and then a second year rush of your most likely neighbor. If you can manage a build and a strategy that has you annex another capital very early on, then I think you find that those creation points can and should pay off in other areas. Obviously G3 is awesome for concerted Blood hunting, but the difference in D3 from G3 is 240 points, which is (almost) the difference between Imprisoned and Awake, for example.

Also bear in mind, 2D is relatively slow pop loss, and shields you from the worst of the negative events, while affording you most of the benefit of a Death scale. Even those who have Nature magic, will find that they have to invest a sizable amount of gems into keeping their forces supplied in your Dominion, or starve.

[licker]

I think the O/L benefits would be different depending on map size (assuming you do well enough to get to 10%+ of a bigger map).

The real question though is do the good events benefit you more than the bad events hurt you. If the answer is yes, then you DO NOT want order, you want as many events as you can get your hands on. If the answer is no, then you do not want luck.

T3D3H3 is +360 points. Even if you don't take P or M you still wind up with +240, which is quite a pile to give you flexibility with bless or awake, or whatever else you want to spend on.

My MP experience is slim, and I tend to not play SP into the 4th year, so I don't know the complete ramifications of some of these choices for mid/late game. My limited experience with L3 (and then up to T3, but no O) is that the negative events are usually much less sever than the good, so I don't see why I would want to minimize my chances at getting a full 3 (or more when larger) events per turn.

[Gregstrom]

If you are taking order and luck you are minimizing the usefulness of luck, and if you also take death you are minimizing the usefulness of order (mid/late game).


With more than 20 provinces, Order won't normally stop you getting 3 random events per turn. And they'll be just as lucky as if you took Turmoil. Death will interfere with gold production by the late game, true. But by then you're generally more concerned with gem income anyway.

[licker]

If you are taking order and luck you are minimizing the usefulness of luck, and if you also take death you are minimizing the usefulness of order (mid/late game).


With more than 20 provinces, Order won't normally stop you getting 3 random events per turn. And they'll be just as lucky as if you took Turmoil. Death will interfere with gold production by the late game, true. But by then you're generally more concerned with gem income anyway.

I have not found this to be the case, even with T3L3. Perhaps its bad luck/small sample size though.

[Endoperez]

The real question though is do the good events benefit you more than the bad events hurt you. If the answer is yes,

Actually, the question you should ask about Order and Luck might rather be "do I need gold?". Order provides more steady flow of gold than Luck. Luck tends to get closer in time, but since there's less money in the beginning Luck nations might not HAVE the time, unless they can survive with less gold than their opponents.
You have to give luck time, because the minor benefits (few gems you can't use yet, PD in provinces you aren't fighting in ATM) add up slowly, and because the big benefits happen rarely. Gems you can't use yet are minor when you get them, but once you research and use them, they become valuable. The gems your nation doesn't have mages for can also become valuable if you might get enough to empower or get access to the path some other way. In MP, trading can also be good. And sometimes you just luck out, like getting a path booster as a random item, or a castle in a good place, or even something as mundane as several mine events totalling into several hundred gp more, every turn.

[licker]

Well yes, early game you will benefit more from order, but my contention is that gold (at any point in the game) is easier to come by, and easier to ration than 'luck' events.

Abyssia has a built in 75g per turn anyway (well depending on the age I guess).

In any event with rapid expansion (which Abyssia should be able to do on normal map settings) after your 1st turn 200% tax run you should be set for 3 turns (including turn 1) of max or near max recruiting.

Where you will likely stall is in getting up a 2nd fort early, or lab/temple, however, rapid expansion and an eye towards mid/late game are the gains.

Lets remember that while Abyssia has expensive troops, they also have a steep production cost, so it's difficult to build many in a turn anyway.

500g a turn (average) is not that difficult to generate with turmoil if you are willing to alchemize.

[WaltF4]

With more than 20 provinces, Order won't normally stop you getting 3 random events per turn. And they'll be just as lucky as if you took Turmoil.

Do we know the probability for some generic random event occuring? Is it something like 10% chance in any one province with no modification from order or luck scales?

[WraithLord]

I have tried T3,S3,H3,D3,L3,M1 in many SP games b/c I want to learn via experiments whether this setup is competitive.
I got to these scales following this logic - D3 is thematic and also Abysia has some advantage in it (food and taxes) that doesn't apply to its enemies. Now if you take D3 it kind of takes the point out of O3 right?- so there goes T3. Now you take out order and have high turmoil so luck 3 is a no-brainer.
Anyway this doesn't hold, usually Abysia is off to an awful start- lacking income, receiving not beneficial events (PD and gems are not useful at the start of the game) and sometimes also bad events. Then comes the first winter and cuts through your old aged mages. I was unimpressed with these scales to say the least.

I'd keep the D3 but change to O3 and L-2. Yes income will dwindle, but at least at a known rate and if you expand (which steady flow of income early on will greatly help to do) you could get more income.

Now, had Abysia received access to early game low level fire summons spell that summons "soldier" level units (for creating armies for early expansion - what with lack of income and low resource is not possible) and some fortune telling the thematic setup I mentioned above would have been much better.
Usually those fire gems just keep piling b/c low level fire spells are quite awful. They are marginally good for complementary units (fire drake) but not for making armies.

[Sombre]

Abysia is not immune to the income malus from death scales.

Afaik it is ONLY immune to the malus to supplies.

I believe it is generally accepted that the ability is pretty much rubbish and does more harm than good by tricking new players into taking death scales with Abysia, the very nation which benefits most from growth.

[vfb]

From my testing, EA and MA Abysia are immune to any income effects from death/growth scales at all. They get penalized with death-3 income no matter what death/growth scales you take.

Try it out: create a game with MA Arco and MA Aby. Arco has neutral scales and Grow-3, Aby has neutral and Heat-3 + Grow-3. MA Arco will have about 415 income. MA Aby will have about 345. (This is CB, so 3% per tick).

Now try a game with MA Aby and Heat-3 + Death-3. Again, you get 345.

So, sucks to be Aby. :)

With grow-3 you're paying 240 design points for no extra income other than that eventually generated by the extra pop you get. Of course, the growth does help your mages, and also keeps some people around you you can maintain blood slave income without invading your neighbors like a crazy man.

Personally though, I'd prefer to be the crazy man.

[Sombre]

What the hell? They get auto death 3 income?

Well forgive my earlier statement. I tested it a while ago by taking death 3, saw the lower income and clearly I came to the wrong conclusion. I'd never investigated their income under growth 3.

Man,... sucks to be Aby.

Even so, I still wouldn't take death 3. The damage dealt to your mages is just too huge.

[Endoperez]

Easiest way to test: mod the Growth/Death scale income bonus/penalty and see if Abysia's income changes even when they have neutral growth.

[WraithLord]

I think vfb is correct. At least this is how I understood the description. Its not like growth is not possible for Aby, its that they gain much less from it than the other nations. Optimization and synergy being the key words.

One possible fix to Aby is conj1/conj0 national spell that summon soldier like units. This way they will depend less on income for early start. Later in game luck/blood/expansion will allow Aby to live with sucky income.

[vfb]

Well, they've got spectral infantry. It's just that they don't have the paths! :)

You can get lucky with the F/D hero though ... but that only seems to happen to me in SP.

With CB1.3 you can try expanding without units. A Warlock Apprentice can take a province every turn it is supplied with blood slaves. Research Blood1 immediately (a great sage helps) and just use a couple calls of Call Lesser Horror (3 slaves). Together with your starting army you'll expand quite nicely. Barbarians and Elephants are tough to scare off because they kill your horrors too fast. Shoot the barbarians with indy archers and hire Beast trainers for any elephants.

You can do this with the following scales:
Order 3 Sloth 3 Heat 3 Death 3 Fortune 3 Drain 2

You won't be hiring much in the way of sacreds! But Warlock Apprentices can also cast Body Ethereal on Salamanders, and Demonbreds can support with Fire Blast.

So, CBM only: Blood-1, Evo-2, Alt-3, Const-6. Const-6 is for the lanterns mainly, but boots of youth don't hurt. A great sage can give you great diversity like:
Fire 3 Air 3 Water 3 Earth 4 Astral 4 Death 4 Nature 4 Blood 3

That's 44RP in drain 2. Shrouds at Const-4 give you regen for diseased Warlocks, and even at Const-2 you can make nice fiery toys for your indy commanders to blast away with.

Sacrifice with cheaper H2s to spread your dominion.

Without Lesser Horrors at Blood-1, I guess you could try Evo-2, Alt-3, Const-6. Use salamanders behind a few shields with supporting Star Fires and Fire Blasts. But you'll lose quite a few lizards without Body Eth, and you need a critical mass to defeat the enemy before you run out of gas.

[WaltF4]

ver3.21 EA Abysia gets the full income effect of growth/death scales if the equation for income on page 37 of the manual is correct. I tested by starting games with different growth/death scales and comparing the income of the capitol on "default" ground.

H3 only, pop 29730, and cave castle gave 341 gold
H3D3, pop 30050, and cave castle gave 324 gold
H3G3, pop 30210, and cave castle gave 367 gold

Solving for the (dominion scale modifiers) gives:
H3 only: (dominion scale modifiers) = 0.997
H3D3: (dominion scale modifiers) = 0.937
H3G3: (dominion scale modifiers) = 1.056

[Endoperez]

I just got home and tested Abysia with growth/death income bonus modded to 100%. Growth 3 nation: over 1000 gp/turn; MA Abysia with neutral scales: about 380 go/turn; Death 3 nation: 0 gp/turn.
Result: Abysia doesn't get automatic income malus that's linked to Death 3.

The starting fortress of EA and MA Abysia have admin value of just 30, so they will get less income from their capital than, say, MA Tien Chi, with admin 60 fort.

[vfb]

Oh, that's another thing about Aby. They even have a super-horrible home castle, with only 30 Admin, for extra-low income. :(

Here's a comparison with Agartha, who, not surprisingly, are also teh suck:

EA
Grow-3 29660 360 (Agartha Grow-3 29860 362)
Death-3 30080 324 (Agartha Death-3 29560 318)

MA
Grow-3 30370 348 (Agartha Grow-3 30490 369)
Death-3 29830 342 (Agartha Death-3 29518 310)

So, thanks WaltF4!

It appears EA Aby income is affected by growth-death scales like everyone else. I had only played with MA Aby, and I assumed EA was the same.

MA Aby actually does get a neutral growth/death income modifier, independent of the scales they take. But their castle really sucks, so it looks like they get less.

Edit: Thanks Endo too ... I was off testing when you posted. Actually, I think you may have written a post about all this about a year ago!

[chrispedersen]

Oh, that's another thing about Aby. They even have a super-horrible home castle, with only 30 Admin, for extra-low income. :(

Here's a comparison with Agartha, who, not surprisingly, are also teh suck:

EA-Argartha is noooo way the suck. If you pardon the expression from a subterranean dweller - they rock! And they rock hard. Ya just gotta know how to play em. And like a lot of races, it isn't immediately obvious = ).

[Endoperez]

MA Aby actually does get a neutral growth/death income modifier, independent of the scales they take.

Surprisingly, this is true! :confused:

I tested MA Abysia with Growth 3 and Death 3, still modded to affect income by 100% per pick. While other nations with Growth 3 had greatly increased income, I didn't notice anything with Abysia, and Death 3 didn't 0 their income like it did for other nations.


Good find. :up: