Questions that have nothing to do with MP games I have joined

[rabelais]

1. Why does late TC have access to father of serpents, but not mother of serpents?

Does the former only get snakes in combat or also free recruits?

2. Does the Lord of Plenty have a +goodevent effect like the Lady of Fortune, or does he just get the 4 gems per turn, and the rest is flavor text?

3. what sort of "troops" do the lord of war and celestial general attract, is it exclusively militias it appears... or, is it dominion strength related?

4. Is there an updated database for which scales permit which events? All I can find is sunray's old one for Dom 2.

5. would a regen bless and a shroud save an aged crone or ancestor smith, or do you actually have to get them into combat to save them (or does disease prevent all regen?)

6. I'm having difficulty finding a unit database that would allow me to answer these sorts of questions for myself... the much used dom2 one was divided into nations and very readable, is there a version of Edi's latest that is at all similar?

7. Why would one take exactly magic 2 or drain 1 instead of the more point advantageous magic 1 or drain2? Seems like it needs to be modtweaked if that is possible.


Thanks for your time and all replies.

[Trumanator]

5: yes, this is one of the more common ways to counteract old age. However, they will still gain afflictions, just not as many.
7: not much reason. Magic 2 does reduce MR and fatigue cost, but not enough to be worth the points.

[Tichy]

#7 is a long-standing topic of debate around here. Short answer: no one ever takes magic 2 or drain 1.

[Gregstrom]

3. The Celestial General gets Soldiers of the East each turn - I think it's 4 units equivalent to TC infantry and 1 light cavalry type.

[lch]

2. Does the Lord of Plenty have a +goodevent effect like the Lady of Fortune, or does he just get the 4 gems per turn, and the rest is flavor text?
He does. Lady is +25%, Lord is +15%. Smoking Mirror, for Mictlan, is +10%.

[Sombre]

Can we please distinguish between CB and vanilla in this thread?
I'm a little worried it will confuse people if we don't.

Lord of Plenty doesn't give gems in vanilla. Celestial general doesn't generate troops in vanilla.

[lch]

Ah, that did confuse me. Lord of War doesn't seem to generate troops in vanilla, too.

[Gandalf Parker]

This was a discussion of cbm mod? Ahh that explains much.

[archaeolept]

haha :)

the general gets 5, possibly upkeep-free, "soldiers of the east", which are t'ien c'hi HI w/ tower shields, and one light cav w/ light lance and composite. It's actually quite nice - not enough in itself to justify an awake strat, but lending to one.

actually, maybe it's a viable yomi strat - he has a standard, a bit of early arty, and prot 14 (w/ def 13) is pretty nice EA.

[rabelais]

How do I stop my Skratti from turning into dogs after they are done being werewolves? I lost 2 perfectly good thorn spears to this bizarre behavior. WAD?


I saw some discussion of using scouts to store items, but I don't see how this helps for non-ritual purposes.

In other questions does Area of effect =3 on a spell mean a radius of 3 squares or just 3 contiguous squares in some shape?


Thanks,

Rabe

[thejeff]

You send them into the battle as werewolves. Since they don't change in battle, they don't change afterwards. The price is more fatigue for your buffs.

AoE 3 means 3 contiguous squares.

[Illuminated One]

Hmm, if I win a battle and get items from the enemy that I can't use now but like to keep for later I put them on the scout that carries the gems.
That way they are not gone when I loose a battle.

[Soyweiser]

7. Why would one take exactly magic 2 or drain 1 instead of the more point advantageous magic 1 or drain2? Seems like it needs to be modtweaked if that is possible.


I thought that this was kind of intentional. The +2 research is such an advantage that it just costs 80 points.

And the -2 research is such a disadvantage that you get 80 points for the additional -1.

[MaxWilson]

Soyweiser,

Are you playing with a mod or something? In vanilla Dom3, +2 to research costs 120 points (Magic-3). Rabelais was asking why anyone would pay 80 points for Magic-2 (+1 research) when they could just pay 40 points for Magic-1 (also +1 research) instead.

-120 points: -2 research
-80 points: -1 research
-40 points: -1 research [nobody takes this]
0 points: +0 research
40 points: +1 research
80 points: +1 research [nobody takes this either]
120 points: +2 research

Some people (including me, currently) increase the bonus/malus to +/- 1 per point of Magic.

-Max

[Tifone]

@ Max - Well as you know Magic doesn't control just this - even MR and casting fatigue. Still yeah, I often take M1 or D2 too but never M2 or D1 :D

[Soyweiser]

Soyweiser,

Are you playing with a mod or something? In vanilla Dom3, +2 to research costs 120 points (Magic-3).

I meant compared to +1. The additional +1 (for a total bonus of +2) costs 80 points. The first +1 is worth 40 points. The second one is 80 points. 120 total.

[MaxWilson]

But the first +1 isn't worth less than the second +1. In fact, proportionately the first one is worth more. (If your national mages are 4 RP, 40 points gets you +25% RP, from 4 to 5. Then the second 80 points only boosts you another 20% from 5 to 6. On a 10 RP nation like Shinuyama it's 10% and 9%, respectively, but the first one is always worth more. Conversely, Drain-3 hurts lots more than Drain-2. Vanheim should never take Drain-3.)

-Max

[Soyweiser]

But the first +1 isn't worth less than the second +1. In fact, proportionately the first one is worth more. (If your national mages are 4 RP, 40 points gets you +25% RP, from 4 to 5. Then the second 80 points only boosts you another 20% from 5 to 6. On a 10 RP nation like Shinuyama it's 10% and 9%, respectively, but the first one is always worth more. Conversely, Drain-3 hurts lots more than Drain-2. Vanheim should never take Drain-3.)

-Max

Yes, that is true, the second is worth less in proportion. But not in game terms. Having a nation with better researchers is always good. And because you always recruit at least one mage each turn for research. The relatively small additional +1 bonus grows to a large bonus in the end.

Research is so important for getting into the end-game, that having a large bonus on research, or a large penalty. Determines if you get there faster or slower.

If we both play nations with the same kind of national mages, the one with the highest magic rating will probably get the end game spells quicker. In that regard having a large bonus (from magic-3) or a large penalty (from drain-3) should be worth more points than only the lesser penalties or bonuses.

Higher magic also makes the indy mages (such as shamans) better suited for research. And when you look at this combined with multiple fortresses, the little proportional bonus of the second +1 grows to a very large bonus.

The same with drain-3. Your research is really down the drain. Most indy mages only give 1 rp. So are totally not worth it.

The gold cost per rp is also decreased with a higher magic. With Shinuyama for example, normally you pay 300 for a 10 rp unit. so that is 30 for each 1 rp. with a 1 gold upkeep for each rp.
Drain -3 -> 37,5 per rp, 1,25 gold upkeep
Drain -2 -1 -> 33,33 per rp, 1,11 gold upkeep
Magic +1 +2 -> 27,27 per rp, 0.90 gold upkeep
Magic +3 -> 25 per rp, 0.83 gold upkeep

So if you buy 10 of them, one each turn, after eleven turns you have the following totals rp (buying ten, one each turn for eleven turns gives you 55 turns of research).
-3 : 440
-2 -1 : 495
+0 : 550
+1 +2 : 605
+3 : 660

So having a high magic rating gives you a very large research bonus over nations not having a large magic bonus. Having a leading position in research should be worth more points.

And taking drain-3 is always taking a large risk. If a nation takes -3 and some other nation has +3, you have a very large research gap very fast.

(This is also why imho LA-ermor shouldn't take drain. They cannot recruit mages (no gold), only summon them. The mages are in short supply, so if you get behind in research it is almost impossible to close the gap. And you really need to get the late game/mid game spells with LA-ermor).

So while proportionally the first +1 might be worth more, in strategic terms the second +1 is imho worth more. It gives you a large cumulative advantage, and it increases the already existing advantage.

Edit:
Total RP after 21 turns for different nations (20 recruited base 10 rp mages) (20 recruited base 6 rp mages (seems to be the average of recruitable mages))
-3 1760 880
-2 1980 1100
+0 2200 1320
+1 2420 1540
+3 2640 1760
220 mage turns of research.

[JimMorrison]

Oddly, the benefits of Magic3 can seem a bit obscure. I think that investing in Magic scale, is investing in your mid and late game, and unlike most design choices, it has almost 0 impact on your early game, which is why most people totally overlook it.

I have a couple of nations that I like Magic 3 with, benefits include reliably getting to Cons 8 first, but otherwise vary richly depending on nation. This seems to work best overall with nations who have a single path mage, so you end up getting 5 RP for 60-80g. That's a benefit that compounds rapidly on itself.

[rabelais]

Further questions:

1. was it ever determined what if any method could be used to raise the holy level of a non mage priest other than artifacts and re-prophetizing from the RoR?

2.does it matter which order you cast storm oand mist in?, or is it cumulative either way?

3. azure mage's text claim they can extend the waterbreathing ability to their followers, but it does not appear to be so... bug?




4. what effect does an elixir of life have on a unit that dies in a deathmatch or of disease?



Thanks for all replies,

Rabe

[llamabeast]

2. The order doesn't matter, and the effects are indeed cumulative. The combination makes arrows fairly useless.

3. Bug, or rather an error in the description. In Dominions 2, water mages were able to lead people into the sea. That's not the case in Dominions 3.

[MaxWilson]

3. azure mage's text claim they can extend the waterbreathing ability to their followers, but it does not appear to be so... bug?


As llamabeast said, no longer true. Just pretend it means "can grant waterbreathing to their followers, given enough research and enough gems to forge a Sea King's Goblet."

I.e. "I promise, I'm working on it! Just a few more turns, guys." ;)

-Max

[thejeff]

Aren't there still a few mages who do grant waterbreathing?

[Gandalf Parker]

I think there is a lady deity that does

[vfb]

Here's a list of water mages who can bring other units underwater:

Traitor King (#622, Atlantis hero) 10
Limne, Queen of the Lake (#908, summon) 37
Seer King (#558, Atlantis hero) 10
Sea King (#580, summon) 15
Beregina (#1955, Bogarus summon) 10
Naiad (#1226, summon) 15
King of the Deep (#322, Atlantis recruitable) 10
Angakok (#1618, Atlantis recruitable) 10
King of Rain (#1420, Micltan summon) 10
Son of the Sea (#961, pretender) 37
Sea Father (#529, magic site recruitable) 10
Capricorn (#1038, Oceania recruitable) 25
Son of the Dragon King (#1580, Jomon hero) 20
Forgiving Father (#2083, Atlantis recruitable) 5
Dagon (#109, pretender) 25
Mage of the Deep (#1692, Atlantis recruitable) 5
Lady of Fortunes (#601, unavailable pretender) 12
Lady of Fortune (#1344, pretender) 22
Capricorn (#1039, Oceania recruitable) 25
Rusalka (#1954, Bogarus summon) 5

[lch]

Here's a list of water mages who can bring other units underwater

Actually, you need to multiply your numbers by two because you seem to have used human-sized (size 2) units. The Lady of Fortunes (601) has a value of 30, too, and the Lady of Fortune (1344) a value of 50. But they're not (semi-)amphibian, so maybe their own size counts towards this limit, too.

[chrispedersen]

But the first +1 isn't worth less than the second +1. In fact, proportionately the first one is worth more. (If your national mages are 4 RP, 40 points gets you +25% RP, from 4 to 5. Then the second 80 points only boosts you another 20% from 5 to 6. On a 10 RP nation like Shinuyama it's 10% and 9%, respectively, but the first one is always worth more. Conversely, Drain-3 hurts lots more than Drain-2. Vanheim should never take Drain-3.)

-Max

Yes, that is true, the second is worth less in proportion. But not in game terms. Having a nation with better researchers is always good. And because you always recruit at least one mage each turn for research. The relatively small additional +1 bonus grows to a large bonus in the end.

Research is so important for getting into the end-game, that having a large bonus on research, or a large penalty. Determines if you get there faster or slower.

If we both play nations with the same kind of national mages, the one with the highest magic rating will probably get the end game spells quicker. In that regard having a large bonus (from magic-3) or a large penalty (from drain-3) should be worth more points than only the lesser penalties or bonuses.

Higher magic also makes the indy mages (such as shamans) better suited for research. And when you look at this combined with multiple fortresses, the little proportional bonus of the second +1 grows to a very large bonus.

The same with drain-3. Your research is really down the drain. Most indy mages only give 1 rp. So are totally not worth it.

The gold cost per rp is also decreased with a higher magic. With Shinuyama for example, normally you pay 300 for a 10 rp unit. so that is 30 for each 1 rp. with a 1 gold upkeep for each rp.
Drain -3 -> 37,5 per rp, 1,25 gold upkeep
Drain -2 -1 -> 33,33 per rp, 1,11 gold upkeep
Magic +1 +2 -> 27,27 per rp, 0.90 gold upkeep
Magic +3 -> 25 per rp, 0.83 gold upkeep

So if you buy 10 of them, one each turn, after eleven turns you have the following totals rp (buying ten, one each turn for eleven turns gives you 55 turns of research).
-3 : 440
-2 -1 : 495
+0 : 550
+1 +2 : 605
+3 : 660

So having a high magic rating gives you a very large research bonus over nations not having a large magic bonus. Having a leading position in research should be worth more points.

And taking drain-3 is always taking a large risk. If a nation takes -3 and some other nation has +3, you have a very large research gap very fast.

(This is also why imho LA-ermor shouldn't take drain. They cannot recruit mages (no gold), only summon them. The mages are in short supply, so if you get behind in research it is almost impossible to close the gap. And you really need to get the late game/mid game spells with LA-ermor).

So while proportionally the first +1 might be worth more, in strategic terms the second +1 is imho worth more. It gives you a large cumulative advantage, and it increases the already existing advantage.

Edit:
Total RP after 21 turns for different nations (20 recruited base 10 rp mages) (20 recruited base 6 rp mages (seems to be the average of recruitable mages))
-3 1760 880
-2 1980 1100
+0 2200 1320
+1 2420 1540
+3 2640 1760
220 mage turns of research.

There are quite a few factors that are overlooked here.

The chance of getting a dominion scale flip is related to the difference between the present scale, and ideal scale. So a Magic2 will flip to magic 1 far faster than magic 1 will.

Secondly; Each step in the magic scale adds or subtracts fatigue to casters as well as the bonus/malus to rp and save.
And D2/m2 values do change over d1/m1.

Finally, hypothetically, some random events are unlocked with M levels.

[vfb]

Here's a list of water mages who can bring other units underwater

Actually, you need to multiply your numbers by two because you seem to have used human-sized (size 2) units. The Lady of Fortunes (601) has a value of 30, too, and the Lady of Fortune (1344) a value of 50. But they're not (semi-)amphibian, so maybe their own size counts towards this limit, too.

Guilty as charged! :D I did test using humans. I think you're right, the Fortune Ladies are using some of the water-breathing ability for themselves.

Also I only tested water mages. It's possible that there are non-water mages that also grant water breathing.

[Stavis_L]

Here's a list of water mages who can bring other units underwater:

[...]
Angakok (#1618, Atlantis recruitable) 10
[...]
Forgiving Father (#2083, Atlantis recruitable) 5
[...]



Aaargh! And to think I was forging +breathing equipment for them to tote some archers across sea lanes...does it say this somewhere in their description and I'm just blind? (away from game at the moment)

Of course, 5/10 human sized followers is not a lot, considering their total leadership.

[rabelais]

I just tried to move some cavalry underwater with a lady of fortune, and failed miserably... not even one would go...are those CBM numbers or something?


Rabe, who apparently, can't swim.


Nevermind, it appears I can't tell the difference between a LoF and a MoR. So actually, I can't read.

[lch]

Also I only tested water mages. It's possible that there are non-water mages that also grant water breathing.
No, I've checked it against my data, and your list is exhaustive.

[rabelais]

I'm looking at pretender choices for ea ermor, why would someone choose anything other than a sphinx for an immobile? it has more magic more hp more armor and the same dom... does it have a secret weakness, seems a nobrainer, if going immobile.

what gives, qm is WAY smarter than that.

[vfb]

A Sphinx is totally immobile. Fountains and Monoliths can teleport around late in the game and Master Enslave. A Sphinx also has just one misc slot. And in CBM, other immobiles get gem income.

[rabelais]

Ah HA! so teleport doesn't work, ... does gateway or the other movement spells? what about sacred statue?


Thanks,

Rabe

[vfb]

A Sphinx is totally immobile. AFAIK, other immobile units can only teleport. No cloud trapeze, no gateway, no faery trod, no stygian paths.

[MaxWilson]

A recent report from the forums indicated that Stygian Paths does in fact work for a Sphinx (KO thought the mental image of a huge Sphinx sneaking through the underworld was pretty funny), so I expect it probably does work for the other immobiles too.

-Max

[vfb]

That's cool! I just tested it and it worked fine. Of course, if you make a S9D9 Sphinx (only need D5 actually) then halfway through your MP game the next patch could be released, and your ability to stroll the Stygian Paths might disappear :shock: :)

Once the Sphinx gets to another province, Returning works fine to return him home.

[rabelais]

Why would a provinces resources suddenly go to exactly zero?

pop is fine, no sloth, just went from 56 to zero in one turn, unlikely any spell cast as it is early in the game. Very odd. Very


nvm, figured it out, got a castle built. stupid placement, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.

[rabelais]

what determines how many demons a particular leader can "carry". I looked in the manual, but can't find anything definitive.


I know blood magic helps, does death magic?

does BEING a demon help?

other than path boosters are there items that help demonic leadership? (some fraction of generic magic/undead leadership?)


Thanks for any replies,

Rabe the really no longer that impressed with his woodsmen.:hurt:

[JimMorrison]

Demons require Undead leadership, that's all. :happy:

[Gandalf Parker]

What determines? Or how to find out?
If you click on the leadership tag of a unit then it will give you another screen showing how many normal, how many undead, and how many magical units it can lead.

Those numbers can be affected by the units experience levels (the stars he gets), from magic items, from levels in magic, etc. Some magic sites will offer to boost those numbers also.

[Gregstrom]

To expand on Jim's comment:

Blood gives you a little bit of demon/undead leadership, and death magic gives you a lot. Undead and demon commanders get good leadership on undead/demons, and I don't think there are any items except path boosters (and maybe the rod of death) that increase your undead leadership. Oh, except the Skull Amulet which gives you +1.

[JimMorrison]

Rod of the Leper King as well, but it's an unpleasant item. :p And Wraith Crown.

Also several nations (well, Yomi, Lanka, LA Ermor at least) get 30 Undead Leader per Holy level, even on indie priests.

[MaxWilson]

If you can forge Rod of the Leper King, you can summon a Black Servant to hold it. Undead are immune to disease. (Black Servant is also stealthy, so if the undead you want led happen to be ghosts you now have a whole stealthy raiding party.)

That's really interesting about Yomi/Lanka/etc.

-Max

[Gregstrom]

@Jim: I thought it was 15 undead leadership/holy level. Did that change in a recent patch?

[JimMorrison]

@Jim: I thought it was 15 undead leadership/holy level. Did that change in a recent patch?

Mmmm, quite right. D=30, H=15. :D

[rabelais]

Please spoil me on the following artifacts:

Gift of Kurgi
Oath Rod of Kurgi


Thanks.

[rabelais]

Ok this is a quick but potentially important question... is movement through caves unimpeded like grassland/plains or require some survival trait (mountain?) to traverse more than one a turn?


thanks for all replies


Rabe

[lch]

Please spoil me on the following artifacts:

Gift of Kurgi
Oath Rod of Kurgi
The Oath Rod of Kurgi (102):
construction level: 8
forge cost: 2S 2B
item type: Two-handed weapon
sprite number: 169
weapon: Oath Rod (157)
activated spell: Horror Mark
effect: [Oath Rod] (5)
The Oath Rod effect was something that has a chance of horror marking units in the same province as the wielder during hosting, IIRC.

The Gift of Kurgi (296):
construction level: 8
forge cost: 5B
item type: Misc
sprite number: 290
armor: The Gift of Kurgi (94)
activated spell: Send Lesser Horror
onebattle spell: Call Lesser Horror
effect: [Gift of Kurgi] (1)
effect: assassination attempts (307)
effect: fear (30)
effect: horrormark (20)
effect: getlostinthevoid (2)
effect: insanity (10)
effect: growinsane (2)
status: luck, flying, ethereal, cursed, cannot unequip
The assassination attempts are from Lesser Horrors. That's actually less of a problem than wielding the Forbidden Light. The wielder has a 2% chance per turn to fall into the Void. The biggest problem might be that the wielder slowly grows insane and gets severly horror marked by it. It does give an awful lot of good combat bonuses, though, and the wielder should be good to wreak havoc for at least one or two dozen turns with it.

[vfb]

The Oath Rod of Kurgi effect is: inflict Feeblemind on your commanders in the same province as the unit wielding the Oath Rod. It does not affect enemy commanders, so it is teh suck, pretty much.