Improve assassins

[Sombre]

Let the assassin (attacker) have the first turn, rather than the victim (defender).

Discuss.

[Tifone]

Sounds more realistic on 1vs1 attempts, but you can expect the eventual bodyguards of the target to be always alert about the surroundings of their protected one. A doubtful matter. I would probably like the way you suggest better, though, as even if the guards are alerted the assassin would be readier than them and make the first move (getting closer to the target, firing an arrow or a spell) anyway when discovered after all.

[Epaminondas]

I agree with the idea.

[Gandalf Parker]

Is it always that way? Positioning the assassin doesnt change that?

[lch]

Variation of the idea: Make a special destealth check, with a very heavy handicap for the assassin, but destealth power only counting the commander and his bodyguards (and his patrol ability, flying bodyguards etc.) and the winner gets the first round.

[Gandalf Parker]

That sounds realistic.

[HoneyBadger]

I'll go along with Sombre's suggestion. It's a good, reasonable idea.

I'd even go so far as to suggest that some assassins have an "assassinate" ability that gave them additional turns (and/or reduced the amount of bodyguards that the target got). Maybe "regular" assassins could have "assassinate 0", and they could go up to "assassinate 5", allowing you to fully script the best-of-the-best for their first 5 turns. This would be a mechanical expression of the relative ability of units to get close to their targets when they're at their weakest, and to "set up" their kills at the best possible time. Obviously, assassins like the Mictlan 'Lord of the Night' should be better at *setting up* the hits, (apart from just eliminating their targets with raw firepower), than some Ermor thug you hired for 20 gold.

That would make actual assassination attempts more realistic, I think, and the best assassins a lot more deadly.

I'd like to see a slight modification, though: If the target is wearing a Ring of Warning, the target always gets the first turn. The above 'assassinate' ability would still reduce the amount of bodyguards progressively, from 10.

As it is, it's usually not quite worth an extra slot on most units, except in special situations. Nice to have, but something you can do without, in favor of something better. If assassins are going to be better-and I agree that they should be-then there should also be a good counter for that.

[chrispedersen]

I like Ich's idea.. Give all assassins glamor in an assassination attempt.. and let them go first - glamour to sort of represent the idea of destealthing, striking from surprise.

[Loren]

A slightly different idea:

There is a de-stealth check but it's *NOT* pass-fail. Rather, the better the check the closer you get before you de-stealth. The assassin goes first (he's expecting the situation and knows when he's been detected, when his cover is blown he knows it) but can't use a move action that first round.

[Zeldor]

I am totally against any improvements to assassins [especially when it works on remotes too] until we can get to make separate orders for for situation [and deal with routing from assassinations].

[Xietor]

obviously people wanting better assassins have not seens ea abysia!

Also it is not like MA Pythium or MA Ermor, off the top of my head, need to even more powerful.

[HoneyBadger]

EA Abyssia isn't really that good...their flying assassins are Cap only, and not that tough. Certainly no danger to a Jotun (non Niefel) Jarl, or an unequipped Basalt King or Queen. If they were non-Cap sacreds that didn't have to bless themselves, and maybe had some magic, they'd be a threat, but as it stands, they're more of a nuisance in the EA, atleast to a lot of EA Nations.

[Sombre]

Well the idea is that assassins generally suck, which I believe they do, and improving them would be a good thing.

Magical remote assassins are a bit different though. Making earth attack et al more powerful is probably not a good idea. Then again the gem cost could always be hiked, or magical assassinations could have a different rule.

While regular assassins could be kitted or scripted to deal a horrible amount of damage on that first turn, the fact is you can always patrol against them, you can employ bodyguards and because the assassin can't pick his target, they can still be stopped with decoy commanders or the presence of a thug or two that can beat them. Then there's mind hunt and various other spells and tactics you can use against them.

You might even see use of boots of long strides. Madness.

[HoneyBadger]

It should be mentioned, Xietor, that under Sombre's suggestion, EA Abyssian assassins *would* actually be significantly better than they are now, due to their flying ability :)

[capnq]

Is it always that way? Positioning the assassin doesnt change that?Like any other combat, currently defender always moves first.

I recently had an assassination where the Ermoran target cast Raise Dead on the first round, then my Abysian Demonbred flew across the battlefield and landed between the Death mage and the newly raised Soulless...

..and then turned and attacked the Soulless behind him rather than the target mage in front of him.:doh:

[SlipperyJim]

Lanka has a pretty good summonable assassin. He's not SC material. He won't take on an army by himself or anything. But he's pretty good.

The only odd thing about him is that he's Sacred without any actual Holy magic. In a normal battle, you could get one of Lanka's (many) commanders with Holy magic to bless him. However, in an assassination, you're fighting all alone. Therefore, no bless.

It's enough to make me want to either mod away the Sacred status or mod in a #onebattlespell Blessing. Guess which path I chose? ;)

[MaxWilson]

Well, even if he isn't blessed, it does make him cheaper to maintain. And it's thematic. And it lets him carry the Ark in assassinations without getting hurt by it.

-Max

[SlipperyJim]

Well, even if he isn't blessed, it does make him cheaper to maintain. And it's thematic. And it lets him carry the Ark in assassinations without getting hurt by it.

-Max
He's a blood summon, so he's probably free. But cheaper upkeep is a good general point.

As for your other point, I have only this to say: Give an artifact to an assassin? Madness! ;)

(Which makes Sombre's point....)

Back to the OP: I like the idea of assassins getting a free round (or several) of combat. Very thematic.

[Agema]

I don't think the idea of assassins is that they dash in and murder anything. They can be useful without being successful at killing, simply by being disruptive. Assassins are best at killing unguarded characters, they can even kill a human-size HP mage with not awful odds (mages scripted for battle are often ill-prepared for assassination, especially communioning ones.)

Keeping many commanders and mages alive means bodyguards - not just on armies where their function is particularly vital, but possibly all researchers too. Those troops will be unavailable for frontline duties, and will also cost upkeep probably greater than that the assassin(s). For that matter, one assassin that does successfully damage a vital commander or mage can be the difference between a won and lost battle.

[Illuminated One]

One nice addition to assassin would be if they could give you some info on the commanders present in a province like spies do with armies.

[Agema]

I don't know that makes much sense. A spy is a specialist at finding things out, an assassin just kills people.

[Gregstrom]

But presumably assassins would take a careful look at their potential targets? If they provided info on commanders but couldn't estimate troop numbers, that might be a balance.

[Aapeli]

..and then turned and attacked the Soulless behind him rather than the target mage in front of him.:doh:

I would be quite happy if asassins could target commanders. Its just logical that they target their real target, the one they have came to kill and not any inimportant militia that happens to stand next to him. Im also for the idea of giving the first turn to the asassin.

[Gandalf Parker]

The message saying it succeeded or not would be nice. Reporting their province in the message would be nice also. I hate having to watch the fade-in and try to figure out where it occured.

[Agema]

Assassins getting the first turn would make them enormously powerful. Think of scenarios like having flying boots for two immediate dagger attacks on the target, a bow of war for umpteen arrows and so on. We're talking potential instant kill in many circumstances with very cheap and early Construction requirements.

Selecting a target also makes them incredibly powerful. I'm sure someone prepared to put a bit of effort into equipping their assassin properly could quite easily find and kill a humanoid pretender God (although maybe not a titan or monster.) Particularly if they get first move as well. Also I think Blood has access to an artefact (Dark Heart?) that gives characters the assassinate skill: a thug/SC with that could select and pick off the lynchpin commanders and mages of an opponent.

[Taqwus]

Right now, their utter randomness in picking targets and the fact that a province has to choose between hiring an assassin (whose odds of accomplishing anything are fairly low -- even independent priests fairly frequently survive, due to guards) or hiring a commander that will probably have far greater returns over time.

I could see an assassin having some control over *whom* to target among commanders in a province. This does not mean that they should deterministically be given an opportunity to try against that commander; i.e. it is entirely reasonable that one have to wait around for quite some months avoiding patrols before finding a opportune time (depending on the patrol value in the province, for instance... and the target being in a castle should probably add a penalty as well).

Second, it doesn't mean that they should have a good chance of survival if they've pulled off the assassination -- it should, minimally, have a large penalty to the assassin's stealth for a while (possibly permanent). Think, say, Jing Ke; he had a plan that gave a shot at getting close to the Qin leader, but no plan that would have caused the courtiers from disseminating his identity and having patrols looking specifically for him even if he'd been able to get away. The odds that an assassin has 'blown cover' by trying should be rather high, even if the target and personal guards are all killed.

[Illuminated One]

That's a good point.
What would be even more better if the assasin would get something from idly sitting around in the province where he strikes. Like having a higher chance to pick a good target (or make a popup list like GoR has where you can select an enemy commander. The list would grow over time from 1 entry at the first turn to all the commanders in the province after n turns) or a better starting position in the assassination battle.

Ah, but that's just wishful thinking.

[Ironhawk]

If you had to pick one stat or ability that would make assassins as they currently are more useful, what would it be?

[Gandalf Parker]

Personally I would say their Stealth.
I can adjust most other stats by equipment. But I hate to invest in equipment then have him spotted forcing him to fight an army with no way to retreat.

[Ironhawk]

Stealth would be handy, yeah. What do others think?

[HoneyBadger]

What if there were a spell that did the same thing as Horror-marking, but "assassin-marked" instead? That way, you'd have to actually target the targeted commander with a spell, before you send your assassin(s) after them.

[lch]

And a Dom3k variant, a Laser Target Marker which enables you to send Nukes... :grenade:

[HoneyBadger]

That's actually not that bad of an idea, Ich. :p Certainly Dom3K could use some sci-fi province-targeting ritual magic.

Personally, I'd go with House Atomics and sandworm thumpers.

[Gandalf Parker]

Couldnt "Winged Monkeys" and such spells count as that?

[HoneyBadger]

Yes, that's the general idea, but with science fiction elements, as opposed to the golden era of Hollywood :)

[Agema]

I don't think assassins need altering.

[VedalkenBear]

As a fan of Assassins (to the point of trying to build a completely Assassin-based strategy with 'new' LA Abysia), I would like to see them improved.

Heaven forfend if 95% of assassins actually have a use in the game. :p

[Agema]

Assassinating anyone just halfway important, historically, was very difficult. For every successful assassination recorded, I'd guess there will be at least one recorded unsuccessful one, and add in all the unsuccessful ones never recorded.

Assassins are also relatively cheap. If they are made better, they'll need an appropriate cost increase. You can of course make assassins better with gem expenditure: I'd reckon for 20 gems or fewer and Construction 4 you could equip one with a high chance of killing most adversaries (including mages) and even ones with a bodyguard of basic troops. Indeed, a bodyguard might make some easier to kill because they may rout and take the target hero with them.

[Sombre]

That assumes assassins are worth what they cost now.

Which they aren't.

[Gandalf Parker]

I use assassins quite abit. They are very useful (when equiped) for splitting a large army down into scattered smaller ones. It can be useful in holding back a rush while you build up your forces at home. Definetly a better use than a couple more units in my response army.

[Hadrian_II]

I think the problem with Assassins is the opportunity cost, as every assassin costs you a mage. If assasins would have minor magic, and sane pricing, they could be used for research so there would be more recruited assasins and more use of them. Or that in castles you can recruit a mage and a non magic commander per turn instead of only one commander.

[Gandalf Parker]

Hmmm Im not sure Id consider it always a better choice than mage for the money either. Altho I can see that point if its a castle-only assassin.

[HoneyBadger]

If it's capital-only, like EA Abyssia, the assassin becomes particularly superfluous.

[Loren]

One nice addition to assassin would be if they could give you some info on the commanders present in a province like spies do with armies.

Yes--I would like to know what targets if any are present!

[lch]

Or that in castles you can recruit a mage and a non magic commander per turn instead of only one commander.
This has often been suggested before, but I don't think the idea is that good. It would make nations with assassins probably have a crazy advantage over those who don't. I usually have a fort during mid-game where I didn't build a lab due to the lab cost and because it's on the front where I don't want to have a research basis, that's what I use to recruit non-mages.

[JimMorrison]

I don't think it would be that big an advantage, most of the more dangerous assassins have magic, so would fall in the "magic commander" category.

[Gandalf Parker]

It would change the game immensely if you dont have to choose between an assassin, scout, commander, mage, priest for recruiting that turn. The built-in benefit of some races is the fact that they have units which combines some of those and frees them from that hard decision.

[BesucherXia]

Any chance of adding an independent assassin unit in formal patches? I believe this can dissolve the "mage or assassin" question. And of course they must be inferior to national ones. Maybe need extra lv0 sites.

[Zeldor]

There are independent assassins to recruit.

[Sombre]

Pretty rare though. And still a bit rubbish.

[BesucherXia]

I got it. All are from blood sites. That's why I always miss them.
Thanks for your information. Maybe we only need improve its frequence/level a bit then?

[Lingchih]

Assasins are perfect as they are. They are cheap, and if you want to equip them, they can do the job most of the time. I would say assasins are good for one hit, maybe two. That's what you pay for.

[Soyweiser]

Assasins are perfect as they are. They are cheap, and if you want to equip them, they can do the job most of the time. I would say assasins are good for one hit, maybe two. That's what you pay for.

Lingchih, yeah the assassins themselves are great. But the problem is if you don't buy an assassin you could buy a mage. Which is better. (Esp as they can use assassin spells later, with little chance of death. (of course this costs gems)). I like assassins for their character, but they are not really a good gameplay tactic. (I do like the assassin mercenary, who is a good buy imho).

[Tifone]

I still don't get why an unequipped Abysian assassin may lose against a normal indie commander. It happened to me several times... now, I know that you should equip them and that the open-ended dices can give very strange results; still, one unit trained to kill one-on-one IMHO should beat without problems one indie which task is to lead units...

[Agema]

An indy commander could be someone who rose through the ranks and has first-hand combat experience, an aristocrat whose family bought the best weapon training their money could buy, the product of a natural martial society, and so on.

[Tifone]

Still the other is trained to kill exactly this kind of targets (nobles, leaders) in 1 on 1 assassinations ;) he doesn't have leadership nor other capabilities - all of his purpose in life is focused on this. :)

[Illuminated One]

And he should not fight him in a fair duel, but stab him when he is unaware.
Hmm, what brings me to another idea - give the attacked commander 50 fatigue on the start of the battle to represent that.
Maybe with mod #onebattlespell on the assassin with a spell with 100 precision that deals 50 fatigue damage.

[Gandalf Parker]

There is a magic site that provides recruitable assassins.

[Agema]

I don't think assassinations should be viewed too realistically. Otherwise you'd need to start asking questions like why the assassin doesn't just put poison in the target's food, or push a stone off a parapet onto his head, or why he's never equipped differently because he could be in disguise, or why he shouldn't sometimes have his assassination aborted simply because he didn't have an opportunity to get to the target.

Dom3's assassination mechanic is a gameplay representation, not a reality simulator - it could have as easily been abstracted to a percentage chance like the way it is done in the Total War series, or just a success/fail message like Mind Hunts. The bottom line is that it works for gameplay: we all know what happens and how we can influence the outcome, and it looks nice.

[Tifone]

Agema, we all know that ;) We're just discussing bout how some of us would like the assassins to be slightly more cost effective :) Nobody is thinking about full-reality. It's just balancing (and coolness :cool: ) of a kind of units like it has been discussed before about spears, elephants, archers and spells :o

[Agema]

That didn't seem clear to me with comments like the assassin just stabbing the target in the back or why the target could fight back adequately, but okay, accepted. :P

[Tifone]

(in case I sounded harsh I'm sorry, it's just my pitiful english :o)

[KissBlade]

If Assassins were improved maybe we'd actually stop seeing ye olde mage spam mindlessly technique. I don't even know why non-mage/priest national commanders are in the game.

[Tifone]

High leadership? ;)

(Long time no see mr KissBlade, or it's just me? :happy:)

[KissBlade]

Heyas =D yah long time no see.

[HoneyBadger]

It'd be nice if commanders could give bonuses to their troops, also, along with improved assassins. That way, you might just recruit a commander that gave everybody under her command stealth 0, or swamp survival, or a bonus to fighting undead.

As it is, I'm fond of making commanders that self-summon their own types of troops, which may take that Nation in entirely different directions, without the benefit of magic.

[Agema]

I like that idea, HoneyBadger. As well as swamp survival etc., it could be as simple as commanders who give +1 Att/Def/Mor to units under their command - why shouldn't a brilliant, trained general be able to get more from his troops than a basic one?

It would have to be a bit limited though - I don't think commanders granting stealth to their troops is entirely fair when you could equip that commander with 10 elephants. It might be best for rare indies, the odd national recruitable or summoned commander, national heroes, and maybe the odd Pretender.

[Tifone]

I like that too. I've always found quite strange that you have those high-trained commanders and you'll so rarely recruit them as your top-mages have really enough leadership. It would be nice and also thematic and logical if commanders, who skipped the magic training for the training of strategy, tactics and warfare, can give small bonuses to the units.
Imagine even nations having maybe mediocre mages but excellent commanders able to give normal units the equivalent of one/two minor blesses, or indies able to train them to move at full speed in their woods. That would be a whole new level of strategy :)

[Aezeal]

Personally I think most of the idea's in here are nice, more realistic than it's now.. but apart from sombre's starting idea I think most won't be that easily implemented...

so I'd just go for that one.. make assassins start first :D

[Tifone]

Damn Aezeal, you awakened us from our nice daydreams :D You're right of course - we were slightly off topic too, so yep, assassins going first would sound reasonable :)

[Ironhawk]

Assassins going first is insane! It sounds good on paper, but think about it from a late-game perspective for a minute. If you were assured of attacking first, you could basically assure that your assassinations would always work. Assassins can absolutely not go first IMO.

[Illuminated One]

Hmm, what do you mean by always work?
Work against mages or against thughs?
What would you give him?

[vfb]

The assassins may work against their targets, but when they get caught by a patrolling army on their assassination turn, with their orders set for assassination, they usually die. All you need is one earth mage in your patrolling army set to petrify. The assassin won't go first in the discovery battle.

I suppose you could stick Virtue on some high-HP assassin, and it might be more difficult to kill it. But that's going to a lot of effort to kill one commander every 2 months.

I'd object to remote assassinations (Disease Demons etc) getting the first move in though, since that's a totally different situation.

[Tifone]

@ Ironhawk: Late game? The first would work. Then all the important commanders would have serious bodyguards. ;) Hey, actually it's already this way :D