Beware of Ashdod

[DonCorazon]

I brought up this point on Omni's Hinnom thread but thought it worthy of its own discussion. IMHO, there is no nation that so thoroughly dominates its age like Ashdod. Sure Hinnom and Niefelheim are powerhouses, but at least they have to contend with each other, along with some other pretty dominating EA nations like Lanka, Fomoria, Sauromatia. But in the MA, nothing comes even close to Ashdod. Their tool kit of dominating resources is frightening:


Berserking, sacred Anakites with FR75, 50HP, high MR (15) high protection (14), decent combat stats for giants (Att 12/ Def 15) and magic weapons
Recruitable Adon SCs with 3 misc slots. Since this nation will almost always have an E bless, protection gets jacked even higher with Bracers/bless double counting
Heat +2 preference means Heat +3 an extra 120 pts to help with the high gold/resource scales for the nation. Fatigue for any non-heat nations, but no worries for Ashdod since most units are at least FR 50
Ridiculously tough PD
+15% forge bonus on Talmai Elders
Archers with 16 protection, Range 50 and 17 damage bows
Non cap sacred Zamzummite mages that can thug with up to D4 possible (they are D2E1 +D/E +D/E/S/F)
“Nice” national summons


Because of their durability, the troops you recruit as Ashdod will likely rack up experience and thus improve their combat stats, while most other nations in the MA tend to have to recycle troops. Woodsmen, the other giant troops in MA (Jotunheim) are nowhere near as effective. No protection, low MR, low attack, no magic weapons. Pyth another strong MA nation will watch its non-sacred hydras get torn apart by regenerating / reinvigorating Anakites assuming the usual Ashdod E/N bless.

I suspect you will start to see Ashdod come to dominate the victorious nations. I am not recommending they be banned or nerfed but new players should beware that Ashdod may be like the Ermor/Ryleh of the LA - a nation that should be joined up against aggressively early on if it is your neighbor. Especially avoid them in games with hard research. I look forward to playing them if a game ever starts where the organizer hasn't already picked them :)

[Zeldor]

DonCorazon:

I think Talmai Elders can be even better SCs, if they can get someone to bless them. Zamzummites can get Invulnerability + Soul Vortex + self-bless.

They can also forge dwarven hammers at discount price to stack forge bonus. They can summon tartarians [probably the easiest nation to get to tarts with national mages], and don't forget about communion capabilities probably better than Pythium.

You cannot forget about high research too [8RP on build-everywhere sacred mages], so you can go even with Drain2. And Misfortun2 is no-brainer too as you can recruit fortune tellers to protect important provs from unlucky events.

[OmikronWarrior]

You're probably right, but I beat Ashdod in a MA game as Pythium. Essentially, I relied on multiple smaller armies and Harbringer thugs to take alot of provinces quickly. For the bigger confrontations, I relied on booster Soul Slay and Paralysis to neutralize SC's while Fog Warriors and Evocation helped win on the field. Of course, he'd been involved in wars up until my intervention and had negative scales allowing me to bring much greater resources to bear.

[cleveland]

*wonders where Ashdod is in relation to Shinuyama...* ;)

[DonCorazon]

OW:
My one experience playing Pyth vs. Ashdod was in a hard research game where I got rushed early on, so those tactics weren't available. I do wish i was able to get more of his neighbors to attack but I have been diplomatically lazy of late. :)

I was able to slow him down with communion boosted Word of Power when he did not attack with full forces. By the time I got thunderstrike, it wasn't enough damage to stop the number of berserking/regenerating sacreds he could field. But I agree, they are not unbeatable, just need to beware of them, and they are not fun neighbors, especially on a hard research game.

Cleveland:
Yep, I continue my unbroken streak of neighboring Ashdod (Origin, ComfortZone), Gath (WheelofTime) and Hinnom (Hellscape) in my last few games. Though in CZ, we are on a suicide mission vs. another nation who killed &^-+...

[AreaOfEffect]

I'd much rather see people present some of the weaknesses of Ashdod, or explain an advantage that other nations have that they lack. The argument is that Ashdod has too many items in their tool kit for other middle-age nations to match them given equal player skill.

So far, the only weak points of Ashdod that I've observed is that their more expensive units are easy to target with the "Attack/Fire Large Monsters" command. However, that only helps you if you have something capable to taking on their SCs and sacred units. For those nations without their own thugs, I suggest using a few of the nasty ranged magical items.

[MaxWilson]

DonCorazon:

I think Talmai Elders can be even better SCs, if they can get someone to bless them. Zamzummites can get Invulnerability + Soul Vortex + self-bless.

They can also forge dwarven hammers at discount price to stack forge bonus. They can summon tartarians [probably the easiest nation to get to tarts with national mages], and don't forget about communion capabilities probably better than Pythium.


EA C'tis is actually better at Tartarians (also gets D4 on recruitable-anywhere mages, plus has Nature access for GoR). It doesn't much matter though because Ashdod, which is naturally playing with an E/N bless, gets a better deal out of Banquet for the Dead than Summon Tartarian.

A nice bonus point to Zamzummites: they have Robes. Since Prot value of Robes is non-zero, E9 boosts them. A typical Zamzummite will get Prot 9 or so after being blessed, which helps shield them from arrows and makes them better battlemages. It also means that thug Zamzummites can get Prot 24 or so on the body from Ironskin, which means you don't have to use Invulnerability if you don't want the fatigue/poison ability.

I concur, if you are playing MP, Ashdod must be taken out ASAP. Frozen Heart, Mind Burn, etc. are probably the way to go, although elephants work too.

One final point: DonCorazon mentioned Gileadite archers. I actually find that human slingers are superior when you actually need missile weapons, because Gileadite archers take forever to mass. Beware of Ashdod human slaves because Ashdod has access to buffs which boost even chaff to frightening levels (Strength of Giants/Weapons of Sharpness/Marble Warriors/etc.) and Ashdod can easily produce masses of human chaff (100 humans in a single turn, easy). Naturally, other nations can play this game too but my point is that if you try to exploit the weaknesses of giant troops Ashdod can shift easily.

Repeat, kill Ashdod ASAP because they are a steamroller.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

DonCorazon:
I think Talmai Elders can be even better SCs, if they can get someone to bless them.

In what way? I can't think of much that a 3S/3E/3F SC can do that a 2S/2E/2F can't, except that obviously you come out of buffing with lower fatigue. On the other hand, Adonim have built-in gear and can self-bless, and have better attack/defense and I think better HP. Talmai Elders could be good SCs but I don't see them edging out Adonim except in limited circumstances (you want a teleporting SC for fire-fighting, and don't have any slots to boost an Adon to 3S).

-Max

[SlipperyJim]

I'd much rather see people present some of the weaknesses of Ashdod, or explain an advantage that other nations have that they lack. The argument is that Ashdod has too many items in their tool kit for other middle-age nations to match them given equal player skill.
One main weak point for Ashdod is their dependence on their capital. Their only sacred recruitable troops are cap-only, as are their two best commanders.

I propose the following strategy:

Find Ashdod's capital. Cast Astral Window on it.
Cripple the capital with Rain of Toads, Raging Hearts, and other Unrest-causing spells. If you have spies, use those too. Crank that Unrest as high as it will go and keep it there!
??? (Deal with the troops Ashdod already has ... somehow.)
Win!


Another weak spot is supply. Giants are hungry, and Ashdod doesn't get any native Nature magic to help them feed their troops. Many Ashdod players will probably design their pretenders with some Nature magic for the bless, so they'll get there eventually. Even so, the pretender is only one unit, and he/she/it will usually have more important tasks at hand than forging Cauldrons and Wineskins....

[Zeldor]

MaxWilson:

Talmai Elders have 8RP, Adon only 3. So for normal times you'd prefer them, for similar SC capabilities.

SlipperJim:

I wouldn't call Ashdod very cap-dependant. Most nations would love to have Zamzummietes as cap-only mages.

[Nikelaos]

well if you have some earth access you may be able to strike out the sacreds with some ease mid game, destruction/iron bane to make that heavy armour fall in heaps and then strike em out with heavy hitters(predators lizards, barbarians, anything weilding a lance) boosted with strength of giants.

another thing to think about is raiding, their awesome troops cost a national debt so it makes sense early game, also unrest causing spells on their capital also work as previously stated

[chrispedersen]

I'd like to hear from people that have actually played Hinnom/Ashdod/Gath.

I have stated that I think Hinnom is one of the strong contenders.

I don't find that to be the case with Ashdod - at all. In my most recent case of playing Ashdod, two players collaborated so quickly and got forge of the ancients up, that the game was essentially decided by about turn 30. Ashdod was a nonfactor.

I find ashdod to be hamstrung by the incredible expense of all its units. You will be choosing to build *a* mage or *a* sc chassis. This is one nation that is seriously hamstrung by upkeep costs.

Ashdod has the ability to all of the things that people claim here. And at the same time - it can't. The paucity of units, and the paucity of money - means you have to be much much much more focused on whatever *single* strategy you chose to follow.

No doubt a lot of it is style - but I didn't find them fun - at all.

As an example of the problem- what is the gold cost / research point of its available researchers - compared to other nations?

[Gregstrom]

Sages would be the primary choice: 175 gold for 6 RP, but you don't have to build a lab for them. That makes them quite nice, really.

Talmai are a little more efficient, at 400g+sacred for 9 RP.

Zamzummites are 310g+sacred for, err, 7 rp? But... IMHO they are more about forging, casting and battle mage duties than researching.

Ashdod's research isn't exactly cheap, but it's not excessively weak. And pretty much any of their researchers can be a useful battle mage if you need them to be.

[Zeldor]

chrispedersen:

No, you don't have to choose. Ashdod mages are either SCs or thugs. They can either cast spells of fight in melee. They don't die of old age, they are immune to remote attacks.

You don't need some insane bless, 2x9 is not necessary, just E9-10 + N6 does a great job. So you have plenty of points to spend on decent scales [you are fine with 5-6 dom and you get 120 points free from heat3],

[Stavis_L]

Ridiculously tough PD
[...]
Archers with 16 protection, Range 50 and 17 damage bows




Regarding these, the PD has very low morale, and is quite susceptible to the standard Misfortune 2 barbs/knights in strengths < 35 or so. I would definitely not call it "ridiculously tough." The archers are nice, but *expensive* (especially in resources) and (currently) can't get fire arrows. OK, the fire arrows would be overkill anyway :)

[MaxWilson]

Ashdod's PD morale is pretty good IMHO. The Edomites are low-morale, but Gileadites have Morale 13 or so. Also, in practice their high HP seems to prevent them from easily routing. In SP, I seldom see a battle lost because of routing that would have been won if the PD had survived, which to me is what makes PD feel like "low morale." (Helheim has this problem, for instance, with PD < 20. Once the serfs are dead the Huskarls run away.) PD 10 will sometimes stand off barbarian attacks or even knight attacks, and PD 20 will often stand off knights and usually stand off barbarians. To me that's about all you can ask for in PD, although I don't concur with DonCorazon's opinion that the PD is "ridiculously tough" either (although *Hinnom*, pre-nerf, did have *ridiculously* tough PD for the price).

With Ashdod as strong as it is, though, I wouldn't object to seeing its PD nerfed a bit. I've previously suggested Edomites + humans, vs. the current Gileadites + Edomites.

Random thought: according to the EA Hinnom text for Qedesot, all Rephaim are male and rely on (Avvite) Qedesot to bear them sons. Ashdod doesn't seem to have any Qedesot left. Where do all the Bashanites, Gileadites, etc., come from? To me this is also part of the thematic justification for removing Rephaite Gileadites from Ashdod PD. Let them be a nation mostly composed of Edomites.

You could nerf Ashdod pretty hard-core by making Zamzummites cap-only. That would make me cry, and avoid Ashdod the way I avoid Helheim now that you can't make Svartalfs. The memory of what once was is tragic. :)

-Max

P.S. I think CBM makes Ktonian Necromancers cap-only. That also makes me cry. I would likewise object to restricting Sauromancers to the capital. Good recruitable-anywhere battlemages are my primary criteria for selecting a nation.

[vfb]

Slightly OT, but Gath PD is nice too. 10 is usually sufficient against barbarians, and at 20 you start getting sacreds.

[cthulhu]

I'm the guy playing Ashdod in the game that DonCorazon was talking about.

IMHO, Ashdod is the most powerful MA nation, and arguably more powerful than even the best EA nations:
1. Sacred capital-only soldiers that are better than any other MA nations sacred soldiers, almost as good as the best of EA. When combined with a good bless, Ashdod sacred soldiers have no major weaknesses, and lots and lots of strengths (strat move 3, very high HP, high attack and defense, 2 attacks each, one of which is magic, very high damage, decent protection, bezerk, fire resistance, MR 15, plus whatever your bless grants).
2. Capital-only recruitable commanders that make better thugs than anything recruitable in MA, almost as good as the best of EA.
3. When fighting EA strong sacred nations (ie Neifelheim) you can sabotage their capital with spells and spies. That can be a bit difficult if they're doing an SC strategy, as their commanders don't need too terribly many resource points, but it can work. Ashdod is less vulnerable to this strategy because in addition to awesome capital-only units Ashdod also has excellent buildable anywhere units, particularly the Zamzummite (all Zamzummites can cast raise skeletons/dead, 62.5% can cast Summon Earthpower and thus all the E3 spells that usually follow that, and 25% can cast either magma eruption or GfH after summon earthpower - and they are sacred, holy-1, and very tough). The Gileadite archers are kinda decent too.
4. Decent PD.
5. Decent national summons. At conjuration 6, the Dirge for the Dead summon makes a decent SC chassis (innate 0 encumbrance sacred etherial undead giant, with excellent combat stats, an extra misc slot, decent starting equipment, etc. The main disadvantage is a small insanity rating). At Conjuration 7, Call Hashmal is a decent way to convert astral gems into a preacher. Call Arel is a good way to get rid of afflictions (which Ashdod desperately needs, since it has lots of thugs and SCs without recuperation), to get an extra holy-3 for divine blessings, and to get access to higher level nature magic. At conjuration 8, Call Ophan is an good (though slightly bizarre) thug (holy-3 flying lifeless etherial protection 20 size 6 trampler) for 49 astral gems. Banquet for the Dead is a higher level variant of Dirge for the Dead, but I don't like it as much as the main unit produced has a higher insanity rating, and extra magic paths that aren't particularly useful on an SC. At conjuration 9, Call Merkavah takes a ridiculous amount of astral gems (222, compared to 100 astral + 20 nature to just wish for the same unit and GoR it), but it is IMHO the best SC chassis in the game, slightly better than even a Seraph, though not as effective at combat magics (it's hard to beat the Seraphs F4A4S4H4). It comes with excellent bodyguards too, maybe even worth the extra cost incurred by casting Call Merkavah instead of Wish.
I consider Ashdod national summons to be overall not quite as good as Bandar Log or Marginon/Pythium/Ermor, but more diverse than those, and significantly better than Tien Chi or any other MA nation.

Note: the forge bonus is not quite as good as it sounds: when you look at the actual forge costs when combined with a dwarven hammer, it has no effect on 5-gem item costs, only a 1 gem difference on 10-gem items, and a 2 gem difference on 15-gem items. Significant, but not like 25% forge bonuses that some nations have access to.

That said, I still expect to lose that game.

If someone wanted to nerf Ashdod, I would recommend starting by reducing the Zamzummites E1 to a 50% chance of E1, raising the base encumbrance on Sheshai Anakites and Ahiman Anakites by 1, and increasing the gluttony by about 50% on each unit plus an extra 100% on the capital-only commanders.

[zzcat]

Zamzummite is arguably best non-caponly commander in the game. Being great battlemage and great self-buffable thug, it's even cheaper than Vanjarl(250 vs 280). IMO it's seriously overpowered.

[cthulhu]

Zamzummites cost 310 gold, not 250.

[Lingchih]

Beaten by Ashdod in last team game. No one dared attack them. They slowly but surely took all VP provs needed to win.

Nuff said

[zzcat]

Zamzummites cost 310 gold, not 250.

So Edi's database contains an error;)
Even with 310 gold they are too powerful. IMO they are lesser version of Dai-oni which can be builded everywhere, and they are immune to the anti-demon spells.

[chrispedersen]

Sages would be the primary choice: 175 gold for 6 RP, but you don't have to build a lab for them. That makes them quite nice, really.

Talmai are a little more efficient, at 400g+sacred for 9 RP.

Zamzummites are 310g+sacred for, err, 7 rp? But... IMHO they are more about forging, casting and battle mage duties than researching.

Ashdod's research isn't exactly cheap, but it's not excessively weak. And pretty much any of their researchers can be a useful battle mage if you need them to be.

Pretty much making my point for me.
Your idea of an efficient researcher - the Talmai - cost 44gp/rp.
Compare that with other nations at 25/rp.

Everyone considers the Seshai the preeminent sacred warrior of MA. Unit for unit - probably right. But effectiveness per gp - and I don't think they are even close.
At a cost of 125 gp - and 48 resources.. I can get *5* jaguar warriors.

And 5 jaguar warriors with a competent bless are going to beat 1 sheshai -every time.
So, on the critical question of effectiveness/gp - Mictlan - and a lot of other nations - win.


The problem is that jaguar warriors attrit - and sheshai don't. AND ashdod can get up to the point where he's cranking out 4-6 of these every turn, from one castle given time Mictlan, to crank out 20-30 of these per turn will need 3-4 castles.

Ashdod has to be jumped on fast - but I don't seem them as I dont see these as worse than niefle.



Lingchi made the point that everyone was afraid to attack ashdod - and so they won. But I would submit to you that its a self fulfilling prophecy. Don't attack any nation - and they *will* win. The opponents of ashdod decided to ignore the 600 lb gorilla in the room - which is a sure recipe to lose.

Ashdod has a number of great advantages.
-First, people don't know how to counter - and are afraid to.
-Second, their sacred troops don't require a lot of bless. Frankly, I think an F4-6N4-8 is all thats required, although an S assist for the magic resistance is a good thing.
-Third they don't attrit. They take almost no casualties, so they benefit strongly from experience. Which means that the 600 pound gorilla is much stronger later than earlier.
And on that same point- the game graphs are deceptive.

People tend to rank leaders by province, gem income, army strength, and perhaps research. But the army strength graph in asdods case is almost meaningless.. (same sort of problem with niefle)..

[AreaOfEffect]

Understood, the Talmai are less efficient to buy, but Gregstrom was referring more to the upkeep cost then the initial cost. If you go back to the Sages, the gold/RP is about 29. Not the best by any stretch, but not the worse either. The point I think people make about their research is that it is simply good enough that it isn't a weakness. People often feel you should trade early game power for late game power. Ashdod doesn't do this by having average research. Plus there are the little things, like the lack of old age and near immunity to remote killing spells and such. Also, once they have the research, their mages are capable of a lot.

I will agree that fear can be a greater killer then your enemy, which is why Don made this post in the first place. His advice is that turtling is not a valid tactic to use against them.

P.S.: Mictlan can only make jaguar warriors at home in the middle age.

[MaxWilson]

Zamzummites are better than Ktonian Necromancers in several respects (strat move, HP, Precision, no old age, lower Enc, thuggable, +1 D) and worse in three (cost +20% or so, research -1, -1 F). Much as I love Ktonian Necros I'd say that Zamzummites are far superior. If Ashdod only had Zamzummites and cap-only S3 Talmais as recruitable commanders I would be content--everything else is just gravy. Yeah, just my biases showing, but Zamzummites are awesome.

I really don't see 5 Jaguar Warriors beating a Sheshai Anakite. Or even if they do, 5 Ahiman Anakites can likely kill unlimited numbers of Jaguar Warriors. I think regular units won't be taking down Ahimans short of either 1.) lots of high damage weapons (EA Ulm does okay with Steel Maidens, knights do too) or 2.) Destruction/Iron Bane. Oh, or 3.) Cold dominion and/or swamps for the extra +2 enc. The combination of 0 encumbrance (w/ E10) and high Prot is hard to get past. Non-Earth nations with no Cold dominion like Mictlan will probably struggle (have to ambush them in swamps). However... I'm not at home so I haven't tested this. Maybe you're right and 10 jags really can take down an E10N6 Ahiman in normal terrain.

-Max

[cthulhu]

I'm pretty sure that 5 jaguar warriors with F8W9B9 could easily take an anakite. The problem is that the jaguar warriors would be easy prey to any indie archers backing up the anakites, and would tend to suffer serious attrition even against weak forces.

F8W9B9 jaguar warriors are rather special-purpose units with a special purpose bless, whereas E10N6 or E9N4F4W4 or whatever anakites are good for almost any purpose and the bless helps their spellcasters and SCs too.

[Zeldor]

cthulhu:

Huh, who would take a bless like that with Mictlan? With MA you can either have W9F9 or W9F9 as it's mainly for eagle warriors. Only EA and LA Mictlan can live with very heavy bless and rely on blood sacred summons.

[AreaOfEffect]

Clearly cthulhu doesn't know a thing about MA Mictlan. Good luck finding a god for F8W9B9.

[cthulhu]

F8W9B9 is not intended as an example of a recommended bless for mictlan, just as a bless which would allow jaguar warriors to trounce the comparable gold cost of anakites. Likewise I'm also not intending to imply any reliance on blood magic except for the bless. I'm aware that taking it requires seriously nasty scales, and isn't much good for anything other than punching through the armor of anakites. ie a "special purpose bless".
W9F9 is not enough to let 5 jaguar warriors reliably kill a well blessed anakite, considering that the anakite resists the fire damage, has more armor than the jaguar warriors base damage in either form even before bezerking, accumulates fatigue much slower, and will be regenerating health reasonably fast.

[Zeldor]

cthulhu:

But examples should be realistic :) No one will create a nation just to counter one other nation, especially when it's 20 people game. And compare what Mictlan gets in normal forts [Nahuallis are a joke, S1N2 non-sacred mage? compared to Zamzummite?]. Ashdod could be very strong if you take Zamzummites, Talmai Elders and national summons completely from them.

[MaxWilson]

Banquet for the Dead is a higher level variant of Dirge for the Dead, but I don't like it as much as the main unit produced has a higher insanity rating, and extra magic paths that aren't particularly useful on an SC.

I think Dirge for the Dead is great. You get a Malik (15% Shattered Soul) who can cast Soul Vortex and either Invulnerability, Fire Shield/Phoenix Pyre, or Personal Luck/Teleport (depending upon which variant you get), as well as Blood Vengeance if you have nothing better to do than research Blood-9. (Non-factor, really, but interesting.) You also get 4 awesome sacred Ditanu with zero insanity, MR 18, ethereality, lots of hit points, good att/def, etc. Both the Malik and the Ditanu are Morale 30, so unlike regular Ahimans/Adonim/She****es they won't rout when faced with Hydras/Ghosts/etc. You get the standard undead strengths/weaknesses, which in this case is really good because Cold/Poison immunity added to Fire resistance covers almost the full spectrum, whereas weaknesses (Dust to Dust vuln) matter less because of high HP + regen of 6+ HP per turn (assuming E10N6).

I can't say enough good things about Soul Vortex. Best spell an SC can have--chaff-killing + reinvig + regen all in one neat little package. You'll need a death booster or a death gem to cast it w/ Malkim.

-Max

[cleveland]

Z - Are you suggesting you'll be joining the new all MA nations game? Surely you're bored after Kingmaker? :D

[MaxWilson]

Well, the weird thing is that Ashdod can get E10N6 and still have good scales, whereas F8W9B9 Mictlan will be destroying his economy to get that bless. It's still possible that Mictlan would lose that fight, too, on a gcost basis.

E10N6 Ahiman: 0 enc, Prot 22 all over, att 15/13 and def 16 IIRC, regen 6 HP per turn.
F8W9B9 Jaguar Warrior: att 17 or so (?), str 16 (?), about 21 base damage per hit, 1.5 attacks per round.

You'll have 3-6 jags attacking each Ahiman, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Ahimans taking 10+ points of damage each turn (with an "average" damage of -1 it's hard to be sure without running the numbers). Ahiman will regenerate 6 HP per turn. Ahiman has to kill IIRC 6 jags to be cost-effective (on a gcost basis--number varies if you're measuring vs. Prod/Holy/cap-only opportunity cost). I think Mictlan would win this fight but I'd like to be sure.

Of course, as you point out, these jags wither under missile fire. Ashdod doesn't even need indy troops, it can produce human slingers at any fort. Or just cast Body Ethereal on the Ahimans at the start of combat, which would undoubtedly be enough to tip the balance in favor of the Ahimans (3+ points of damage per turn vs. 6 regen, still 0 enc).

-Max

[Zeldor]

cleveland:

Is Ashdod free there? :) To be honest there is not much action going on in Kingmaker. I take good care of my lands and don't let any visitors in :)

[WraithLord]

Beaten by Ashdod in last team game. No one dared attack them. They slowly but surely took all VP provs needed to win.

Nuff said

Not really slow. Ashdod took its time until it decided to take the world and then it just exploded. It basically took out bless based Jotun in one turn!
(IIRC It had an E9 bless while Jotun had a E9N6 bless.)

Then it just picked whatever VPs it needed to win.

Granted, the game was w/o diplomacy, so trouble makers like myself who always nag ppl to ally against the biggies had to keep their mouth shut, but its true nonetheless that everyone was trembling with fear of attacking Ashdod.

[RonD]

I'd say that the one thing most likely to increase the power of an overpowered nation is "no diplomacy".


Meanwhile, as someone playing against Ashdod currently, I'm all ears for ideas. Has any tried massing banefire archers? Or does their long life span save them from decay?

[WraithLord]

Charm, Enslave mind and/or the likewise blood spell?

Frozen heart spam?

Avoid confrontation and use sneak tactics and spells to ruin his economy?

Find friends?

[MaxWilson]

Okay, I checked and F8W9B9 jags do take out E10N6 Ahimans on a gcost basis. I tried 4 Ahimans vs. 24 jags several times, and the jags won each time with something like 25% casualties. I'm not necessarily suggesting that this would be a good bless to take for Mictlan, but you'd probably get almost as good results out of a F9B8 Smoking Mirror bless and you'd have decent scales to boot. Point being that the Str component of a Blood bless is sometimes quite good even though everybody scoffs at the Death Curse effect.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

I'd say that the one thing most likely to increase the power of an overpowered nation is "no diplomacy".


Meanwhile, as someone playing against Ashdod currently, I'm all ears for ideas. Has any tried massing banefire archers? Or does their long life span save them from decay?

What are you facing? Blessed troops or regular Bashanites/Amorites? Bashanites have slightly less attacking power than a square of human-sized troops, and are somewhat more expensive, so you may be able to just slug it out. If he's using blessed troops (i.e. it's a small map) you'll have to bring in mages. Stellar Cascades/Destruction/Iron Bane are the way to go, depending upon your magic paths. By the way, what nation are you playing?

Banefire archers will be marginally effective, as you guessed, because of the combination of long lifespans and good shield parry. Not that they might not be worth using anyway, if you don't have anything else you need death gems for more. (Because it's always worth having more banefire bows in play. :))

-Max

[Kristoffer O]

A death bless is probably quite good vs. any giant nation. Afflictions easily build up to make your blessed giants rather useless.

[JimMorrison]

That's what I was thinking, D9 Eagles. Maybe W9D9, or D9/B8..... Change the meaning of the word "attrition". Actually, D9/B9, sooooo many Eagles, poor Ashdod will be swimming in Horrors. ;)

[cthulhu]

I can't say enough good things about Soul Vortex. Best spell an SC can have--chaff-killing + reinvig + regen all in one neat little package. You'll need a death booster or a death gem to cast it w/ Malkim.
Hm... what exactly does Soul Vortex do? I've never actually cast that spell. My impression was that it was basically an instant combat evocation comparable to a zero range area of effect drain life spell, and thus only minimally useful to an SC no matter what the damage was since spells can only be scripted in the first 5 turns and it would the sort of spell that you'd want to cast over and over again after the enemies were near to get good results from.

[rdonj]

Soul vortex is basically a life drain aura that lasts the entire battle. Not too shabby.

[Zeldor]

It's uber uberness of self-buffs. It is AoE drain life every turn that gives you life and reinvigoration [lots of reinvigoration, like tens a turn]. And you can get over max HP with that.

[chrispedersen]

I'm pretty sure that 5 jaguar warriors with F8W9B9 could easily take an anakite. The problem is that the jaguar warriors would be easy prey to any indie archers backing up the anakites, and would tend to suffer serious attrition even against weak forces.

F8W9B9 jaguar warriors are rather special-purpose units with a special purpose bless, whereas E10N6 or E9N4F4W4 or whatever anakites are good for almost any purpose and the bless helps their spellcasters and SCs too.

As I've written many times, F9W9 and then AX or SX
I know that probably the standard counter for jags are archers. An A bless defeats that strategy.

You can, with many variations, make a Dominion 7 pretender. And 7 jags with that F9W9A9 bless will take no losses against virtually any independent. The only time you will lose is when your mictlan priest gets killed via an archer.

Additionally, Mictlan can afford that 999 bless - affording an E9N4F4W4 bless with ashdod is *much* more difficult. Ashdod *needs* a +3 +x scales. You can play a e9X4 bless with ashdod but I am far from convinced its optimal strategy.

I think it would be thematically interesting to balance ashdod by making its castles the equivalent of ermorian - something like 10 admin, available everywhere. These would but a severe damper on ashdods gathering of resources, and hence its ability to produce units.

Again, ashdod is very money and resource intensive. All of its units are expensive. So if you force it to defend against dominion death you are significantly reducing its ability to research or act offensively.

[chrispedersen]

A death bless is probably quite good vs. any giant nation. Afflictions easily build up to make your blessed giants rather useless.

Nah. With Niefle I just rotate the SC's out. Set the afflicted SC to research.

With an Exn6 bless, its relatively easy to get a fairy queen to heal afflictions; plus some of the giants have healers native.

[Kristoffer O]

A death bless is probably quite good vs. any giant nation. Afflictions easily build up to make your blessed giants rather useless.

Nah. With Niefle I just rotate the SC's out. Set the afflicted SC to research.

With an Exn6 bless, its relatively easy to get a fairy queen to heal afflictions; plus some of the giants have healers native.

You are all so peaceful! You should not consider the game after research lvl 7. If you haven't won by then you will never win :) Beat Ashdod about early, when they can't heal themselves with fairy queen. You can never plan for late game victories and hope to win. If you do you're a bore :)

[cleveland]

You can never plan for late game victories and hope to win. If you do you're a bore :)

This should be in the manual. :)


Oh, and KO, please ignore any disparaging remarks about Machaka that may have surfaced in the "Machaka = least played nation" thread I started. I've been playing with them since that original post, and I've got to say, WOW. They are friggen awesome.

I don't want to tip my hand per my upcoming MP game, but you want to know how to kill Ashdod? Send an equivalent $$$ worth of Spider Riders at them. In fact, send $.

*skulks off to write Machaka guide outline*

[Wrana]

Yes! Machaka guide is long overdue!!! All glory for you (and I hope you win with them ;) )!

[Kristoffer O]

> All glory for you (and I hope you win with them )!

Of course I will :)

Mbaba is still inhaling. In a few turns she has inhaled long enough to snuff out every candle there is.

[Sombre]

Actually, D9/B9, sooooo many Eagles, poor Ashdod will be swimming in Horrors. ;)

This leads me to believe you've never actually tried B9 bless. The enemy can kill /droves/ of your sacreds without worrying about horrors. The effect is pathetically weak, to the point where it can be ignored entirely.

[MaxWilson]

B9 bless is MR-resistable, so... wouldn't it be interesting if the horror mark/curse effect kicked in on a *hit* by the sacred as well as from its death? This might be too strong, but OTOH +4 Str. and horror-marking weapon (MR resists) isn't all that different from +350% afflictions and 2 AN weapon (MR resists) with unresistable disease, which you get from D9. Neither is probably quite as desirable as F9 or W9 but it would make the B9 bless non-laughable.

Naturally, you may choose to take B9 for reasons unrelated to blesses (as the FAQ points out, strong blesses often correspond to weak paths and vice versa), and really I'd rather have KO/JK working on their new project than on Dom3, but as a thought experiment I sort of like this idea.

-Max

P.S. I would also make an A9 bless grant Flight in combat. Hey, if it works for eagle warriors...

[Slobby]

I was actually thinking death bless to, wasn't it Meglobob that did the f9d9 bless (or some variant thereof)? If I recall eagle warriors have 2 attacks so that's probably an affliction per eagle warrior! Pluck out their eyes and rip off their arms! lol

[MaxWilson]

I don't want to tip my hand per my upcoming MP game, but you want to know how to kill Ashdod? Send an equivalent $$$ worth of Spider Riders at them. In fact, send $.

Have you tested this? In my quick test game, E10N6 Ahimans (which Ashdod can get and still have positive scales) demolished spider knights. (I assume spider riders per se are not critical to the strategy? Spider knights are harder to mass and have no bows but I thought the increased Prot justified the choice.) 3 Ahimans (450 gold) routed 16 spider riders (800 gold) with zero losses. One of the Ahimans got ahead of the pack and got swarmed, resulting in him taking 4 points of damage per turn from poison, negating all but 2 points of his 6 HP regen. Still I think it's safe to say that the combination of high regen, high defense, and high Prot triumphed over the spider rider poison that time.

Just in case, I tried it again with Black Hunters instead of Spider Riders (10 Black Hunters = 1250 gold) led by an F4E4 Scorpion King. Result: 1 dead Ahiman. 10 routed Black Hunters (actually I think 4 of them died) and 1 dead Scorpion King.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

I was actually thinking death bless to, wasn't it Meglobob that did the f9d9 bless (or some variant thereof)? If I recall eagle warriors have 2 attacks so that's probably an affliction per eagle warrior! Pluck out their eyes and rip off their arms! lol

Not going to work as well as you think. Affliction chance is proportional to *damage* inflicted, relative to HP, and D9 doesn't change that. Eagle Warriors are not going to damage an Ahiman with high frequency, and when they do the Ahiman's high HP is going to mitigate the D9 bless. I'm not saying D9 won't do anything--he'll probably come out of the fight with assorted Limps and Chest Wounds, but it's way less than an affliction per eagle warrior. Call it 1 affliction per 10 eagle warriors expended, at a wild guess. Most of those afflictions will come via the Death Weapons effect, which Ahimans resist only about 90% of the time, and not through the regular old daggers.

-Max

[Zeldor]

MaxWilson:

I'd rather see a precision boost for air bless. Making it more a bless for mages than troops.

And I think cleveland was thinking about nets. I remember fighting Machaka with MA Ermor, nets totally owned shadow vestals, but I doubt they'd work well enough against sacreds [but someone can try that - webs to hold sacreds, some other troops to do the harm].

Lighting should be also a good weapon against Ashdod, they cannot get that protection easily [so don't let them grab that merc with A2 :)].

[sector24]

I thought Cleveland was kidding. Like he was kidding about the "sorcerer/sorceror" thing. But everyone seems ultra-serious lately.

[Nikelaos]

I don't want to tip my hand per my upcoming MP game, but you want to know how to kill Ashdod? Send an equivalent $$$ worth of Spider Riders at them. In fact, send $.

Have you tested this? In my quick test game, E10N6 Ahimans (which Ashdod can get and still have positive scales) demolished spider knights. (I assume spider riders per se are not critical to the strategy? Spider knights are harder to mass and have no bows but I thought the increased Prot justified the choice.) 3 Ahimans (450 gold) routed 16 spider riders (800 gold) with zero losses. One of the Ahimans got ahead of the pack and got swarmed, resulting in him taking 4 points of damage per turn from poison, negating all but 2 points of his 6 HP regen. Still I think it's safe to say that the combination of high regen, high defense, and high Prot triumphed over the spider rider poison that time.

Just in case, I tried it again with Black Hunters instead of Spider Riders (10 Black Hunters = 1250 gold) led by an F4E4 Scorpion King. Result: 1 dead Ahiman. 10 routed Black Hunters (actually I think 4 of them died) and 1 dead Scorpion King.

-Max

to be fair black hunters are sacred aswell you know? try it again but give the black hunters a major bless, earth is a no brainer with high protection, a bit o nature also works well after the rider dies, but experiment a bit.

[Sombre]

Well he was simply testing that 'spider riders are a counter to sacred giants' theory, not seeing how effective dual blessed black hunters are.

[Endoperez]

+350% afflictions and 2 AN weapon (MR resists) with unresistable disease,


The Disease effect of Death 9 only kicks in if the 2AN(MR) damage gets through magic resistance in the first place. So it's actually 2AN+Disease (MR negates).

[VedalkenBear]

On the subject of Blood-9 bless, it's probably most useful when you have literally throw-away sacred troops to use for it. About the only sacred I can think of that fits that category are the ancestors that TC and Sauromatia can summon.

[Sombre]

I tried it with Ulm Reborn and had huge squads of 50+ chaffy sacreds charging around.

And it did nothing pretty much.

[MaxWilson]

And I think cleveland was thinking about nets. I remember fighting Machaka with MA Ermor, nets totally owned shadow vestals, but I doubt they'd work well enough against sacreds [but someone can try that - webs to hold sacreds, some other troops to do the harm].

Lighting should be also a good weapon against Ashdod, they cannot get that protection easily [so don't let them grab that merc with A2 :)].

Well for whatever reason, the nets didn't seem to do much. I think it's the high Str on the Anakim, plus the fact that "Death Poison" isn't as strong as it sounds.

I agree that Lightning is a good weapon to use against Ashdod, if you've got it. 3 Ahimans (or whatever his expansion group size is) don't kill armies particularly *quickly* so you will hopefully have time to throw a lot of lightning bolts. I don't know that it's cost-effective but it's one of the more feasible counters.

And yes, Ashdod must be denied Obscuro. He will forge them rings of tamed lightning and winged boots, which is bad news.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

to be fair black hunters are sacred aswell you know? try it again but give the black hunters a major bless, earth is a no brainer with high protection, a bit o nature also works well after the rider dies, but experiment a bit.

Yes, Black Hunters are sacred, but I was not using them as sacred units, I was just curious if Cleveland meant "Black Hunters" when he said "Spider riders." (He probably didn't.) The problem was that the Black Hunters were basically incapable of damaging the Ahimans quickly enough whereas the Ahimans killed the Hunters quite quickly. Adding an E9N9 bless isn't going to change the equation. You're welcome to test it and prove me wrong, but I was already giving Machaka a 3:1 gold cost advantage (450 gold on Ashdod's side vs. 1250 on Machaka's side) so I didn't think it necessary to explore further. Machakan spider riders are not cost-effective vs. appropriately-blessed Ahimans.

And I don't think people play Machaka as a bless nation anyway, do they? E9N8 Black Hunters look cool on paper, but in practice I've found them a bit lacking (N8 doesn't help the rider much, and E9 doesn't help the spider much once the rider is dead). And they're cap-only. I'd rather spend my points on scales.

-Max

P.S. Hmmm. I should mod Machaka so Black Hunters are recruitable anywhere.

P.P.S. I just tried Machakan Hoplites buffed with Strength of Giants. I had high hopes, because regular Hoplites had almost killed one giant in a previous test, but that must have been luck. Hoplites are not cost-effective either. It looks like Machaka's only hope against Ashdod is pretty much to race for Alteration to get Destruction. I'd love to be proven wrong here but I don't see anything other option.

[MaxWilson]

I tried it with Ulm Reborn and had huge squads of 50+ chaffy sacreds charging around.

And it did nothing pretty much.


I think B9 bless is most useful as psychological warfare against opponents who don't hang out on the forums. ;)

-Max

[Nikelaos]

to be fair black hunters are sacred aswell you know? try it again but give the black hunters a major bless, earth is a no brainer with high protection, a bit o nature also works well after the rider dies, but experiment a bit.

Yes, Black Hunters are sacred, but I was not using them as sacred units, I was just curious if Cleveland meant "Black Hunters" when he said "Spider riders." (He probably didn't.) The problem was that the Black Hunters were basically incapable of damaging the Ahimans quickly enough whereas the Ahimans killed the Hunters quite quickly. Adding an E9N9 bless isn't going to change the equation. You're welcome to test it and prove me wrong, but I was already giving Machaka a 3:1 gold cost advantage (450 gold on Ashdod's side vs. 1250 on Machaka's side) so I didn't think it necessary to explore further. Machakan spider riders are not cost-effective vs. appropriately-blessed Ahimans.

And I don't think people play Machaka as a bless nation anyway, do they? E9N8 Black Hunters look cool on paper, but in practice I've found them a bit lacking (N8 doesn't help the rider much, and E9 doesn't help the spider much once the rider is dead). And they're cap-only. I'd rather spend my points on scales.

-Max

P.S. Hmmm. I should mod Machaka so Black Hunters are recruitable anywhere.

you're right, i could have swore he said something bout spiders though and it didn't seem fair testing spiders with f4/e4 bless (those were the paths on his scorpian king IIRC) against ahrimans with E9/N6.

[cleveland]

*laughs maniacally*

:)

[Endoperez]

Cleveland's Guide to Machaka, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying And Achieve Victory Through Psychological Manipulation :p

[MaxWilson]

you're right, i could have swore he said something bout spiders though and it didn't seem fair testing spiders with f4/e4 bless (those were the paths on his scorpian king IIRC) against ahrimans with E9/N6.

E10, not E9. Ashdod is one of the rare cases where E10 is worth it. Otherwise Ahimans pick up 1 fatigue per turn of battle and eventually die to chaff units. It helps in other places too, like trampling Ophanim.

-Max

P.S. Heh heh heh. I'm going to call them "Ahrimans" from now on too, because they are. Death-bringers, that is.



Ahriman, the principle of evil in Persian mythology, was personified as Angra Mainya, "the destructive spirit," who introduced death into the world. He led the forces of evil against the host of Spenta Mainya, "the holy spirit," who assisted Ahura Mazdah, "the wise lord" and final victor in the cosmic war.

[AreaOfEffect]

I've recently achieved a massively cost effect victory against Ashdod using MA Mictlan. However, it doesn't really count as much as I'm using spells like Will of Fates, Relief, Grip of Winter, and Steller Cascade spam thanks to a Banner of the Norther Star.

What I will say is that you don't need to stack on a lot of damage on the Eagle warriors (or on anything really) if you can combine Conjuration 4/Construction 6 with Evocation 5. Use Steller Cascades to soften up the sacreds and then follow it up with a lot of attacks. the fatigue will lower their defense and increase the critical hit chance to allow you to get through the armor.

FYI: Ashdod army lost 14 out of 19 commanders and 68 units out of 69. I lost 42 Eagle warriors out of about 235 and I lost no commanders. Ashdod's bless is E9N6S6. Mine is E9S9. Notice, no blood, no death, and no fire.

[chrispedersen]

It was funny AoE, for a couple of days I've been debating about posting exactly the same thing. Against giant classes, the S9 bless becomes even more important - essentially in your case you caused the enemy to miss 235 times. I doubt the E9 was really relevent except possibly for spell casting.

[Zeldor]

I think that Ashdod is really better in research than Mictlan. And has much much better battlefield mages.

[Nikelaos]

I think that Ashdod is really better in research than Mictlan. And has much much better battlefield mages.

true but battlefeild spells are generally more of a boost to the little guys, iron bane for instace is techniquely a bttlefield nerf to both sides however seeing as giants can punch through armour anyway it favours the little guys who would usually find it difficult to damage ashdods sacreds.

[OmikronWarrior]

I think that Ashdod is really better in research than Mictlan. And has much much better battlefield mages.

I would think this would be pretty easy to test figure out. Research ability is just cost/RP, with cheap low level mages usually being the most cost effective researchers in a magic dominion.

[JimMorrison]

Not such an easy test, though. Especially since Chris specified "better battle mages" as well. Often, these are not the same unit.

For example, Mictlan Priests are marvelously cost effective researchers, with Magic1, but they are not extremely useful in battle, most of the time. ;)

[AreaOfEffect]

Not such an easy test, though. Especially since Chris specified "better battle mages" as well. Often, these are not the same unit.

For example, Mictlan Priests are marvelously cost effective researchers, with Magic1, but they are not extremely useful in battle, most of the time. ;)

Which is why I always encourage players to buy the Nahualli. 5 research (6 with magic 1) for 110 is solid in my opinion. They may not be as cost efficient, but they can provide a variety of battlefield options. They are great for panic spam, communions, curses, and more. Bringing a bunch along while casting banner of the norther star or using a reverse communion allows for solid astral magic. I can easily make dozons of turkey mages into S3N3 mages, which can be quite effective. The other positives are that these researchers are quick responders, as they can fly, and they get a second life due to their secondary form. Just keep them as turkeies in battle. Flying also allows them to leave losing battles quickly and fly back to labs when the threat is over. Lastly, they have the potential to expand your magic diversity by having blood or death on rare occasions. The only negative is that they aren't sacred, but that hasn't stopped me from obtaining countless victories thanks to them.

[chrispedersen]

Not such an easy test, though. Especially since Chris specified "better battle mages" as well. Often, these are not the same unit.

For example, Mictlan Priests are marvelously cost effective researchers, with Magic1, but they are not extremely useful in battle, most of the time. ;)

To make matters more complicated = there are two kinds of effective: straight cost effective and time effective.

[AreaOfEffect]

To make matters more complicated = there are two kinds of effective: straight cost effective and time effective.

A point I wanted to bring up. Nahualli may not be as income effective, but they are income light and more time effective. So I just don't buy the Ashdod > Mictlan in research argument. Both of them have what it takes to beat the other if the player behind the wheel wants it bad enough.

[Agema]

Bowfire should not be Mictlan's biggest worry. MA Mictlan has easy access to arrow fend or storm. Even before those spells are researched, archers can be annihilated by setting eagle warriors to fly over and attack them.

[AreaOfEffect]

Bowfire? That came out of left field I think.

Alright, lets get off the subject of Mictlan and back onto non-nation specific ways to deal with Ashdod.

In my opinion, dealing with Ashdod is simular to the way you would deal with an army of thugs. The less you think of their dudes as national recruitables and more like national summones, the more likely it is that you can devise a strategy against them. However, that's just a mindset, not an actual strategy.

[MaxWilson]

Congratulations on your victory! I'm glad to see that Stellar Cascades was as killer as it usually is. Mages rock.

Out of curiousity, were any of his 19 commanders mages and if so what were they casting? (I.e. what did he have researched?) And how many commanders/mages did you have?

-Max

[MaxWilson]

It was funny AoE, for a couple of days I've been debating about posting exactly the same thing. Against giant classes, the S9 bless becomes even more important - essentially in your case you caused the enemy to miss 235 times. I doubt the E9 was really relevent except possibly for spell casting.

It keeps the Eagle Warriors at low fatigue, which may help a lot vs. chaff (e.g. skelly spam). S9 is nice in mage-heavy battles, which this one apparently was.

-Max

[JimMorrison]

Bowfire? That came out of left field I think.

Alright, lets get off the subject of Mictlan and back onto non-nation specific ways to deal with Ashdod.

In my opinion, dealing with Ashdod is simular to the way you would deal with an army of thugs. The less you think of their dudes as national recruitables and more like national summones, the more likely it is that you can devise a strategy against them. However, that's just a mindset, not an actual strategy.

Basically the functional difference is between -doing a little damage over a large area-, or -doing a lot of damage to single target-.

There are different routes to accomplish both things, but certainly each nation does have tools to use against individual (or small groups of) thugs. There are of course, additional hurdles, such as Ashdod's strong armor at the start of the game, Nature bless, mages that can't be easily killed with stray arrows, etc.

And of course in the grand, convoluted, chess-like strategy of Dominions, if anyone suggests an "ultimate answer to Ashdod" for any particular nation, then a skillful player can prepare to meet that, once they know who their neighbors are.

So in honor of that, I will once again state the *only* foolproof solution to Ashdod, that (almost) everyone can access, and that there is no protection from - Stellar Cascades.

Use this knowledge wisely, my children.

[AreaOfEffect]

Out of curiousity, were any of his 19 commanders mages and if so what were they casting? (I.e. what did he have researched?) And how many commanders/mages did you have?


He indeed had a lot of mages. 18 out of 19 in fact. 3 Zanummites, 6 Emites, 2 Talmai Elders, and 7 Adons. The Adons where equipped with various magic items, nothing decked out completely and nothing rare or unique. I must admit that the spells seemed low level. Some self buffs, frighten, raise dead, and not much else. He didn't have an H3 so he spent two rounds casting blessing while I spent two rounds beating down his guys.

I should have taken more losses had he prepared his best spells, but I can tell you for sure that all units in range of the astral mages were all pretty much dead in the same round they were targeted with steller cascades. Most other units took half a dozen rounds to kill because they were out of range, that's quite a difference.

[hunt11]

This is a more general strategy, but with Ashod it becomes very important. Don't let them get Forge of the Ancients up. If they do, then they will be making so many SC that they could use them in squads, and still have some to spare.

[MaxWilson]

Hmmm. Interesting. How many mages were you using to spam Stellar Cascades? I think this is still on-topic because it affects how scary Ashdod is and what it takes to counter it cost-effectively. He had 70-odd units (call it 10000 gold investment, and almost as much in resources) plus 19 commanders, but most of the commanders seem to have been pretty useless (who builds Emites? who sends Talmai Elders into battle without any evocations?) so perhaps we should eliminate them from the cost equation. In any case, you completely wiped out 10000 gold of cap-only sacreds plus commanders, using 5000 gold of recruitable-anywhere sacreds plus an unknown quantity of mages, some gems, and Evoc-5.

I agree that it's more like fighting summons or thugs than regular units.

This just might be enough to tempt me into MP. I've never really been interested before (time constraints) but maybe I can get someone to play some duels with me. Caelum vs. Ashdod maybe? Mammoths, lightning, and flying raiders/recruitable thugs seem like a promising set of options.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

This is a more general strategy, but with Ashod it becomes very important. Don't let them get Forge of the Ancients up. If they do, then they will be making so many SC that they could use them in squads, and still have some to spare.

Yeah. In fact, Zamzummites make pretty fair thugs even *without* items, in a communion'ed squad. [Communion Master, Summon Earthpower, Invulnerability, Soul Vortex, Personal Luck, attack closest] while the slaves do [Communion Slave, Blessing, Body Ethereal, attack closest]. Toss in a Phoenix Pyre or Fire Shield if you have a Crystal Matrix for a Rephaite Sage (and at least 4 slaves).

I don't know if that's cost-effective on a gold basis but it's cheap in gems.

-Max

[AreaOfEffect]

About 17 Nahualli and 7 Lizard Shamans. I wanted to be excessive. I lost to the same army about 80 sacreds and about another 80 slingers 6 turns before. He lost 16 units and some worthless undead spite my thunder strikes and astral spells. That was not a cost effective battle.

[MaxWilson]

So in honor of that, I will once again state the *only* foolproof solution to Ashdod, that (almost) everyone can access, and that there is no protection from - Stellar Cascades.

Use this knowledge wisely, my children.

Hmmm. Thinking more about this, Stellar Cascades doesn't work well IIRC against an opponent who stay well out of range (back of the battlefield) with his troops on Guard Commander. However, IIRC GftH has Range 100, and it will kill anything but a Tartarian or a Pretender in one shot. Therefore, I propose an augmentation of the previous approach: Stellar Cascades + Gifts from the Heavens. Plus Eagle Eyes.

Yay for Marverni!

-Max

[JimMorrison]

That's a good point, Gifts from Heaven is 100 range, and isn't very easy to counter. :p Though, if they do get Air, a Storm would render them pretty ineffectual at range, with a base Prec of -3.

I'll let one of my favorites go here - if you know your enemy is going to script to stay away from a range 25 spell, have your casters start more forward, and do Attack a Turn once or twice behind your line, and then start casting. This should generally get them into range of anything that was placed in the far back of the enemy field.

[MaxWilson]

That's a good point, Gifts from Heaven is 100 range, and isn't very easy to counter. :p Though, if they do get Air, a Storm would render them pretty ineffectual at range, with a base Prec of -3.

I'll let one of my favorites go here - if you know your enemy is going to script to stay away from a range 25 spell, have your casters start more forward, and do Attack a Turn once or twice behind your line, and then start casting. This should generally get them into range of anything that was placed in the far back of the enemy field.

In a big battle, he's going to anticipate you doing this and will have a portion of his troops also placed forward ready to munch your forward-placed casters. Those troops are a sacrifice gambit because they're well within range of all the nasty spells he's trying to avoid. Anyway, point being that don't forget to guard those forward-placed casters well.

-Max

[AreaOfEffect]

The range of Steller Cascades is 30. Those extra 5 squares are quite helpful. You can't use the attack-attack-cast tactic while the Nahualli are in turkey form, as they will fly right up to a big scary giant. For everyone else it shoudl be fine if you keep them well guarded.

MaxWilson, Gifts From Heaven is another great spell. It's real problem isn't in it's effectiveness. It's problem is in it's accessibility. Earth and Astral is a lot harder to find then just astral. In the middle age you would have to avoid playing 16 of the 23 nations. Out of the 7 remaining nations, one is Ashdod. Further more, only 3 of the 6 other nations can cast the spell using non-capitol only mages. Lastly, only the Starspawns of Ry'leh and the Warlocks of Abysia even have a chance of actually having E3S1, though those chances are slim to say the least. Meaning that everyone else has to either boost with earthpower, start a communion, or wear earth boosters.

Yet, if we are going to bring the spell up, then yes it is quite effective against giants, or anything for that matter. Another spell to keep in mind is Bane Fire, 53+ AP damage.

[Nikelaos]

banefire is a lovely spell, pretty rare magic paths though, machaka shouldn't have too much trouble casting it though.

[Gregstrom]

Even Black Sorcerors (:)) need a skull staff to cast it. And that's the 1 in 4 who get D2. Gems would help, of course.

[MaxWilson]

*Ahem* Ashdod can cast it without boosters. Ironically. So can LA Agartha.

-Max

[AreaOfEffect]

Well, I excluded Ashdod from the my example mostly. Ashdod shouldn't have to worry about counters to it's own troops. I also excluded nations from other ages. Ideally you would want to choose Marverni. Your also mostly wrong. Only the Talmai Elder could have E3S1, and his chances are 1 in 120. You however could easily find Zamzummites with E2S1. Cast Summon Earthpower and your set.

[KissBlade]

Convince people to harvester of sorrow spam them. =)

[JimMorrison]

The range of Steller Cascades is 30. Those extra 5 squares are quite helpful. You can't use the attack-attack-cast tactic while the Nahualli are in turkey form, as they will fly right up to a big scary giant. For everyone else it shoudl be fine if you keep them well guarded.


Well, it's more a general trick, and I haven't really worked with Mictlan yet, so they are an obvious exception. ;)

As far as everyone else goes, of course you want to arrange so that the mages will still stay behind your lines. This is generally not altogether difficult to accomplish, at least I've never had any significant issues with blocking. Obviously, the worst problem is if the enemy is so close up, that your line doesn't move forward much. Your mages aren't too likely to run past your line, but they will be pressed up against it from behind, and may not move forward as much as you'd like them to. On the bright side, if they can actually block your whole line, they are most likely using more chaff than thugs, so you've already made them shift to a strategy that is less effective overall.

[MaxWilson]

Well, I excluded Ashdod from the my example mostly. Ashdod shouldn't have to worry about counters to it's own troops. I also excluded nations from other ages. Ideally you would want to choose Marverni. Your also mostly wrong. Only the Talmai Elder could have E3S1, and his chances are 1 in 120. You however could easily find Zamzummites with E2S1. Cast Summon Earthpower and your set.

I was responding to the post about Banefire, not GfH.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

As far as everyone else goes, of course you want to arrange so that the mages will still stay behind your lines. This is generally not altogether difficult to accomplish, at least I've never had any significant issues with blocking. Obviously, the worst problem is if the enemy is so close up, that your line doesn't move forward much. Your mages aren't too likely to run past your line, but they will be pressed up against it from behind, and may not move forward as much as you'd like them to. On the bright side, if they can actually block your whole line, they are most likely using more chaff than thugs, so you've already made them shift to a strategy that is less effective overall.

Rather than forcing a strategy shift, I think you've merely proven that "archer decoys" are good policy against mages too. I.e. if you plan to lurk at the back of the battlefield you need some decoys to prevent mages from closing during the first couple of turns and/or soak up AoE fire.

If everyone here aware that the difference between "Cast Spells" and "Stay Behind Troops" is that "Stay Behind Troops" will advance behind troops in lieu of casting spells that take him over 100 fatigue? Could also be useful in this situation, instead of [attack, attack, cast].

-Max

[JimMorrison]

If everyone here aware that the difference between "Cast Spells" and "Stay Behind Troops" is that "Stay Behind Troops" will advance behind troops in lieu of casting spells that take him over 100 fatigue? Could also be useful in this situation, instead of [attack, attack, cast].

-Max

I have had VERY mixed results with that tactic, often resulting in a caster with >50 fatigue casting no spells, just milling around like an idiot. Otherwise it would be superb if your opponent lacked missiles, and you expected your line to hold... they might even just do a bunch of buffs at first.

[SlipperyJim]

Rather than forcing a strategy shift, I think you've merely proven that "archer decoys" are good policy against mages too. I.e. if you plan to lurk at the back of the battlefield you need some decoys to prevent mages from closing during the first couple of turns and/or soak up AoE fire.
Yes, this tactic can be helpful. For example, Lanka can often benefit from putting a bunch of "free" longdead (reanimate them with your priests) in the front lines as banish decoys. Meanwhile, all of your sacred demons hang back to be blessed before they charge into melee combat....

[MaxWilson]

I don't want to tip my hand per my upcoming MP game, but you want to know how to kill Ashdod? Send an equivalent $$$ worth of Spider Riders at them. In fact, send $.

Have you tested this? In my quick test game, E10N6 Ahimans (which Ashdod can get and still have positive scales) demolished spider knights.

Cleveland PM'ed me explaining his tactic in more detail. I agree now that spider riders are very cool.

-Max

[Trumanator]

So now you can taunt us with the fact that you know how and we don't. :)

[MaxWilson]

Oh, well, it's temporary. I won't know more than you for long. ;) In fact, you'll have to let me know how well it works in practice.

-Max

[chrispedersen]

Ghost Grip.

[Irishmafia2020]

I love to play Ashdod in my epic single player games, because of their obvious advantages. I usually play with the "all-nations-mod" so I face the tougher EA/LA opponents as well. The primary drawback to Ashdod is that their units require immense resources to produce. They are similar to Ulm in the sense that they can produce powerful military units, but they require provinces that have a lot of resources to produce a major army. Therefore, if you want to hinder them in MP I would propose that you put the resource multiplier at 50% or 75%. They will be unable to produce many giants, and those that are produced will be part of thug teams rather than an overwhelming force of regular infantry. The resources needed to produce mages are much lower, however, so the obvious workaround would be to turn SC death and fire mages every turn (which Ashdod can do). Keep in mind, even their scouts can be thugged-up with the right equipment (there giants after all), so Ashdod is plenty dangerous even with fewer resources. The Ashdod player just has to make mountainous provinces a priority so that they can produce as many non-capital giants as possible with those resources.

[Endoperez]

Therefore, if you want to hinder them in MP I would propose that you put the resource multiplier at 50% or 75%. They will be unable to produce many giants, and those that are produced will be part of thug teams rather than an overwhelming force of regular infantry.

That still leaves the problem of Ashdod having overwhelming magical force. :p

[MaxWilson]

I love to play Ashdod in my epic single player games, because of their obvious advantages. I usually play with the "all-nations-mod" so I face the tougher EA/LA opponents as well. The primary drawback to Ashdod is that their units require immense resources to produce.

I love to play Ashdod in SP too, except that it's too easy. :( Ashdod can actually do just fine even with limited resources and supply. You just switch from consuming resources (Ahimans) to consuming gold (Zamzummites) or gems (thugged-out Zamzummites or Adonim). I'd actually say that Ashdod's biggest weakness is that their mages are gold-hungry. Unlike, say, LA C'tis, it seems as if Ashdod can easily spend even a large 4000 gp/turn budget just buying new Zamzummites for research, plus a few sacreds at the capital. It's not a large weakness though because those Zamzummite researchers are also incredible battlemages. A human might know how to rain terror right back down on you (e.g. a vampire swarm in his dominion) but the computer won't.

-Max

[Mightypeon]

The range of Steller Cascades is 30. Those extra 5 squares are quite helpful. You can't use the attack-attack-cast tactic while the Nahualli are in turkey form, as they will fly right up to a big scary giant. For everyone else it shoudl be fine if you keep them well guarded.

MaxWilson, Gifts From Heaven is another great spell. It's real problem isn't in it's effectiveness. It's problem is in it's accessibility. Earth and Astral is a lot harder to find then just astral. In the middle age you would have to avoid playing 16 of the 23 nations. Out of the 7 remaining nations, one is Ashdod. Further more, only 3 of the 6 other nations can cast the spell using non-capitol only mages. Lastly, only the Starspawns of Ry'leh and the Warlocks of Abysia even have a chance of actually having E3S1, though those chances are slim to say the least. Meaning that everyone else has to either boost with earthpower, start a communion, or wear earth boosters.

Yet, if we are going to bring the spell up, then yes it is quite effective against giants, or anything for that matter. Another spell to keep in mind is Bane Fire, 53+ AP damage.

MA Ulm actually has some chances of getting it too (as Earth Boots are dirt cheap for them), but it relies on luck to get sufficient S1 Master smiths.

[PriestyMan]

thread necro just for kicks?

[Mightypeon]

Sorry for that, assesed the threat from the guide masterlist and didnt check the last posting time.
On the other hand, would opening another "How to counter Ashdod" threat be better than some necromancy?