Without a Dom4, I'd *really* like to see the Dom3 code become public domain

[chrispedersen]

If Dominions is going to go obsolete (no dom 4)...

Then perhaps we could open up the code base, and make it public domain.

I'm sure we could get a bunch of volunteers to help document the code and make it modular (and moddable).

For example, off the top of my head, I'd like to be able to

- allow code plug ins, similar to .dms but that changed more than weapons and spells. For example, allow a spell that created a permanent gateway between two provinces. This could be done by changing the provinces neighbors
- mod random events.
- mod how alchemy works.
- mod to allow point handicapping, or bidding for countries.

The point isn't really the mods I'd like - but if Johan and KO are really intent on going to another project and not continueing Dominions, then opening it up and making it a user supported product.

Please do note however, that I in no way wish to harm their interests; and I support their efforts to continue to develop (and profit from) the product as long as they wish.

[Illuminated One]

allow code plug ins, similar to .dms but that changed more than weapons and spells. For example, allow a spell that created a permanent gateway between two provinces. This could be done by changing the provinces neighbors

A very nice idea.
However I don't think this could be taken to the point that you could cleanly add new mechanics into the game by using plugins.
In Temple of Elemental Evil every spell was a python script but the spell effects were still hard coded to a point.
You could change the damage of a fireball but adding a completely new effect was nearly impossible. Some ingenious people have done some like adding a bag of holding by storing it's contents in an external file or combining buffs on items that then gave them to the holder. However it was limited and buggy.

[MaxWilson]

Any eager volunteers are welcome to contribue time and data to SemiRandom. It can vastly improve the SP experience, and takes much less time than actually diving into a code base.

-Max
Who suspects that volunteers don't materialize out of nowhere quite that easily

[Sombre]

I don't think anything would come of it being made public. Apparently it would be extremely difficult for anyone other than JK to actually work on the code. I doubt they intend to make it public, ever, either.

[Edi]

Not going to happen, is what I think. In their place, I would not release the code.

[thejeff]

While it's certainly within their rights not to and in fact very rare for even independent game designers to do so, I'm curious why not. Or why you wouldn't, since you can't speak for them.

Assuming it's done after they release their new game, have no intentions of returning to the code base and do so with all the appropriate disclaimers of no support, etc. Where is the harm?

[Endoperez]

If Dominions is going to go obsolete (no dom 4)...


obsolete: disused, no longer in use

Obsolescence is the state of being which occurs when a person, object, or service is no longer wanted even though it may still be in good working order.


I don't see how lack of Dominions 4 will make Dominions 3 obsolete. Domininions shouldn't become obsolete as long as it is the best game of its genre.

[Edi]

While it's certainly within their rights not to and in fact very rare for even independent game designers to do so, I'm curious why not. Or why you wouldn't, since you can't speak for them.

Assuming it's done after they release their new game, have no intentions of returning to the code base and do so with all the appropriate disclaimers of no support, etc. Where is the harm?


A lot of reasons to do with intellectual property. Separating the content from the code base would be a difficult thing to do and would mean gutting the game rather thoroughly, and that would be an absolute requirement if I were to release something like this in the hypothetical situation where it was under my control. I couldn't care less about the actual coding mechanics as such, since it is only a tool to implement functionality (and tools can be built or rebuilt if necessary), but I would not have the same attitude toward the creative control and where that was taken.

Releasing it to the public domain would mean that anyone could do anything with it. Unacceptable.

Think of it this way: I made the Dom3 DB and I wish to be acknowledged as its author, but if someone uses that for something else, as long as they credit me for my work, I couldn't care less about it. It's a tool that basically anyone could have put together.

But the stuff in this thread (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=37981) is different. The things I wrote there were inspired by the content stuff in Dominions, but it is my work entirely. Nobody else could have come up with those same things in the same sense that anyone could have built a Dom3 DB. Anyone wants to lay any sort of claim at all to those (except Kristoffer who gets credit since his work is used in the foundations) and use it for whatever, they get to do so only over my lifeless corpse.

Does that make my position any clearer to you? I don't know what JK and KO think of this issue as such, but you asked why I would not release the stuff. There you have it.

[Tichy]

Doesn't the creative commons license answer a lot of the kinds of worries you mention, Edi? I don't have a detailed knowledge of that license, but I thought it was designed for just this kind of thing.

[Edi]

Not to the degree I would wish. As I said, I would be more concerned about the content, not the code. I would not cede any control over the content except on an individual basis to specific people under mutually agreed upon conditions. The Creative Commons license does not fit that bill.

The code is the vessel to deliver the content, but it is not the content itself in the sense that I am talking about. Though as Endo said, this entire discussion is academic because Dom3 is not obsolete.

[Zeldor]

Don't forget that content cannot be really copyrighted here. It's all mythology after all. So you'd pretty much have full rights if you got also code released.

[Gandalf Parker]

Besides all of the above....
Ive written programs that started out on ancient non-PC machines using languages too embarrassing to name which have since then been modified and converted to other languages. The result tends to be something that I would have to do EXTENSIVE rewriting before I would EVER let anyone else see it.
And there are people here who will never let me forget that. :)

We might (slim might due to the many other reasons mentioned already) get everyone in Illwinter AND Shrapnel to give permission for others to pursue an open source project completely duplicating Dom3 with full permission to use the name. I have seen that done in the past where the original developers did not want anyone else seeing their spaghetti code or their secret coding tricks. But as I said that would be slim.

[Beorne]

I asked this (to release the code or the rights to do something similar) time ago, in the forum and privately. There were no answers from the dev, and a long answer from Edi (a close source): in simple "no way".
But I don't give up hopes.
Thinking about Wesnoth as an example, and Dom3 has the potential to be much better.
One last thing, if a "redone" project should start, KO should release to the project all the data files, that are the very hearth of the game.

[lch]

I don't see how lack of Dominions 4 will make Dominions 3 obsolete. Domininions shouldn't become obsolete as long as it is the best game of its genre.
I agree to that. Dominions 1 and 2 have both been rendered practically obsolete by their successors, but other than Dominions 4, I see no reason that the game would become obsolete in a long time.

I have no idea about the actual numbers of how many copies are being sold per week or per month, but I'd expect that it would make no sense to have the code become public domain unless it was several years after (!) JK and KO stopped caring about the game. It's an extremely rare thing to happen that a company does this step, too.

That being said, I know that there's more than one tech-savvy person, not counting me, who has interest in the code and would probably develop it further in a few areas if JK would stop the development. Since I'm not giving any names, I feel free to quote somebody here:

Of the many programs for which source code isn't available, I've found the lack of it for games to be the most frustrating. Most games have a very short economic life-time before they cease to be published and updated, and then the player community is completely helpless if there are remaining bugs or desired features. I wonder if there is some way to convince companies to allow access to the source code for old games, even for a license fee.

I doubt that it would be that hard to work with the code. Aside from few things (Nagot gick fel!), and ignoring what the comments would look like, if there are any, :) it seems to be mostly in English, and not too much of a beast that one won't be able to dissect it and do some minor changes.

I don't reasonably expect that the code will be released in the foreseeable future, though, not within the next 4 or 5 years, at least.

[HoneyBadger]

I think this thread is going in an entirely unfortunate direction.

Illwinter is a business, not a charity organization for wayward gamers, so, expecting them to give away the fine fruits of their hard labour is, in a word, insensitive. Especially around the holidays, which I'm sure profits from sales contribute directly to their enjoyment of-as well as the enjoyment of those they care about.

Does anyone wonder if Kristoffer or Johan have family to support? A mortgage? Taxes are high in Sweden, very high, as far as I've heard. They may not be in it for the money, but I'm sure the money is welcome, and they've earned it.

There are ways around it, anyhow.

[chrispedersen]

I think this thread is going in an entirely unfortunate direction.

Illwinter is a business, not a charity organization for wayward gamers, so, expecting them to give away the fine fruits of their hard labour is, in a word, insensitive. Especially around the holidays, which I'm sure profits from sales contribute directly to their enjoyment of-as well as the enjoyment of those they care about.

Does anyone wonder if Kristoffer or Johan have family to support? A mortgage? Taxes are high in Sweden, very high, as far as I've heard. They may not be in it for the money, but I'm sure the money is welcome, and they've earned it.

There are ways around it, anyhow.


Honey,
I started all of this with the predication that I *want* the developers to continue to profit. I *fully* support them making as much money as they can.

I predicated all of this by saying - if they did not wish to do any further work; if they had no further interest ing the product.

Regarding Edi's comments:
Novel released dp into the public domain while retaining the Copyright to DataPerfect.

Allowing others to add *onto* your contributions ensures that your creation lives on. And various schemes would allow the authors to retain creative control.

But if anyone took this as stepping on the toes of the authors then I profoundly apologize. Quite the opposite.

I would definitely love to see the continue and expand.

[Tifone]

Well maybe it's just me but I like to give a read to the "Introduce yourself" thread now and then and the flux of newcomers doesn't really seem exhausted yet. :)

[Edi]

Regarding Edi's comments:
Novel released dp into the public domain while retaining the Copyright to DataPerfect.

Allowing others to add *onto* your contributions ensures that your creation lives on. And various schemes would allow the authors to retain creative control.

But if anyone took this as stepping on the toes of the authors then I profoundly apologize. Quite the opposite.

I would definitely love to see the continue and expand.
There are various schemes to allow authors to retain control, yes. As far as I am concerned myself, most of those schemes are inadequate. Like I said, I was talking about what I personally would think in IW's position. someone else may have ideas more along the lines of yours. I don't take your comments as being stepping on anyone's toes, as we are having just a hypothetical discussion anyway.

As far as having others add to your creations so they can live on, I'm fully aware of that. The problem is that without involvement from the creator and good, involved and ironfisted quality control, there is a big risk that a lot of what will be churned out will be pure and utter crap and will dilute the franchise to worthlessness. One warning example is the way the Star Wars franchise has gone down the tubes since the early 1990s. You'd have to pay me to read that stuff, especially the stuff that has come out since Karen Traviss essentially hijacked the Clone Wars timeline and later turned the post New Jedi Order stuff to another anti-Jedi Mandalorian crusade. The movies are great, some of the post-movie and pre-movie books are great and most of the books are utter shyte.

I have some ambitions of writing stuff of my own at some point, so I'm viewing this from that perspective.

[HoneyBadger]

The game continues to expand, though, not only with all the new people (hi new people! :) ), but with the large and active modding community, and content added several times a year by the Devs. For free, by the way--no need to purchase that expansion pack.

If the forum was dead, if the game hadn't been updated in 5 or 10 years, then yeah, I'd be all over that source code. That's not what's happening.

There's new content up on the progress page as of the 30th of November, by the way. 15 days after the *last* update. That's from just 2 guys, working full time, and doing Dom3 *and* their secret project, in their spare time. And this is encroaching on the holiday season.

[Soyweiser]

Don't forget that content cannot be really copyrighted here. It's all mythology after all. So you'd pretty much have full rights if you got also code released.

Actually this isn't true. The names of mythological creatures cannot be copyrighted (As these are ancient history), but the actual stories of the dom3 nations can. These are new works by the devs. It doesn't matter that these stories are inspired by mythology. If I write stories about the adventures of T'ien Ch'i vs Midgård Illwinter could not stop me, by claiming copyright infringement. (1)

But you cannot copyright game mechanics. You can copyright game images, boards, tiles, the way the rules are written etc. But not the rules themselves. (I don't know for sure if you can copyright statlines, but I assume you cannot, as they are just a collection of numbers).

If you throw in patents and trademarks the whole discussion changes of course. But these tend to cost money. Copyright is free.

But remember, I'm not a lawyer. And it differs from country to country. (And even from judge to judge).
And my information is based on the US copyright website.
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

Is the code for dom1 and dom2 open source actually? Why not ask for the code to that first? I'd say, open source dom1 first!

(Actually, I would be more interested if the game images where put in public domain, or released under a license. Good unit sprites are a lot harder to create than programming code :).)

Note:
(1) Actually they could stop me, but that is just by throwing a lot of lawyers at me. But they would not have a case, but it would still force me to get a lawyer, go to court etc etc. Wasting my turns ;).

[Zeldor]

Soyweiser:

What I meant was that all is based on mythology, so just even minor changes would be enough to avoid copyright infringement. Of course that "minor changes" are a lot of work - new names, stories, descriptions etc.

[Tifone]

I have this strange idea of Sweden copyright laws being slightly different from USA's... You know, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and all those things... :D

[Soyweiser]

I have this strange idea of Sweden copyright laws being slightly different from USA's... You know, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and all those things... :D

IIRC: All European countries signed an agreement with the USA that they would follow the same kind of copyright laws. (Or more or less the same). And the only country that didn't was Sweden. That is why I can get into problems when I share stuff (as someone from the Netherlands) but someone from Sweden cannot. But IANAL etc.

[Gandalf Parker]

Well they can still get in trouble in the forums. :)

And even countries that do not support the USA copyright laws do have lawsuits. I used to use that on computer attackers who would say "I am in xxxxx and I do not fear your FBI". Mention lawsuit and things change real quick. It appears that the more a nation does not support US laws, the scarier their own courts can be.

[Edi]

Well they can still get in trouble in the forums. :)

And even countries that do not support the USA copyright laws do have lawsuits. I used to use that on computer attackers who would say "I am in xxxxx and I do not fear your FBI". Mention lawsuit and things change real quick. It appears that the more a nation does not support US laws, the scarier their own courts can be.
Often yes. And even if our courts are not, they can get in a crapload of trouble. Somebody from Finland hacks some server somewhere, the people running it can make a crime report to e.g. the FBI, but they can also make one to the Central Criminal Police in Finland, since Finnish law covers actions performed on Finnish soil that target entities outside Finland. And even if it's not ten years of jail + all of your property confiscated, it'll be a bugger and a half and get you in all sorts of trouble in civilian life later. Especially if you intend to work in the IT industry, which a lot of these people do.

[Lokean]

I'd just like to point out that I come from a place where we literally don't have copyright laws on anything apart from written works in printed books and all the laws are in early Modern French. We really do sneer at copyright law, and the courts are pretty easygoing, too.

It's this complicated deal we have with Britain. We belong to the Queen, but we don't belong to the UK (or the EU, actually). The UK can legislate for us in the exclusive case of international policy, but we retain total autonomy regarding internal affairs.

I suppose what I'm saying is "Move to Guernsey, we're awesome."

[Gandalf Parker]

I suppose what I'm saying is "Move to Guernsey, we're awesome."
No offense but as a justification that sounds like move to Nigeria or Somalia. But Im sure there are other good reasons to move there.

[HoneyBadger]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernsey Sounds pretty interesting.

[MaxWilson]

Hmmm. "Crones of Guernsey" should be N2W2 (+200% WNAS linked) and cap-only. And Victor Hugo is a national hero with the right paths to cast "Summon Les Miserables," giving you a Marignon-like Police Inspector, a Daughter of Guernsey (N1), a thuggable human with old age and a bunch of chaffy students.

-Max

[Lokean]

Yeah, the real reason for moving to Guernsey is that it's extremely beautiful, quite laid back and residents of Guernsey are far less likely to get macheted to death in the middle of the night.

Plus, when the zombies rise you'll be living on an island which has been provably self-sustaining for a lot of its history and is dotted with military towers and bunkers which are utterly impregnable to the living dead (seriously, they packed one bunker with high explosives to try and demolish it after the digging equipment proved insufficient, but failed).

[Kristoffer O]

Fascinating, I didn't even know Guernsey existed :)

[DonCorazon]

Hmmm. "Crones of Guernsey" should be N2W2 (+200% WNAS linked) and cap-only. And Victor Hugo is a national hero with the right paths to cast "Summon Les Miserables," giving you a Marignon-like Police Inspector, a Daughter of Guernsey (N1), a thuggable human with old age and a bunch of chaffy students.

-Max

Don't forget the Guernsey unique national summons, the Melon King (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_from_Guernsey) (N5), increases growth scales and spawns, uh, melons. :p

PS I also never knew about Guernsey. Sounds like a cool place to be from!

[HoneyBadger]

I didn't either. It was nice to learn something new. New forgeable item for Guernsey: "Bean Jar" = provides breakfast for 25 soldiers.

[JimMorrison]

....it's extremely beautiful, quite laid back and residents of Guernsey are far less likely to get macheted to death in the middle of the night.


You know, I lost 2 neighbors to that, just last year. It's a huge problem in Oregon.

[HoneyBadger]

Damn bigfoots and their macheti-wielding ways!