New patch soon?

[Skirmisher]

Hi,

Just wondering when that new patch will be out?

[Endoperez]

Progress page is back up and while it does have several bugfixes and mechanic changes, there're only 3-4 new units (Signs of the Fivefold Path sounds more like a spell than a unit). Most patches have added many more.

http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom3/dom3progress.html

[MaxWilson]

I'm excited about the enhancement to automatic site searching. I'm sometimes reluctant to site search early on with low-level mages because I know it will just increase the need to micromanage later, even if I need the gems now. Now I can have the best of both worlds. JK is awesome!

-Max

[Skirmisher]

On the Dom 3 progress page it says for December 7th item 3 that a bug is fixed for loading "random" maps showing wrong graphic.

Will this also fix loading custom maps and getting the last map you played on instead?

I've been trying to play the world of geometry map starting a new game, and I keep getting the last custom map I played.

So I put Dom 3 on hold more or less till the patch comes out.

[Skirmisher]

I'm excited about the enhancement to automatic site searching.

-Max

Whats automatic sight searching? I've always done it manually.

[AreaOfEffect]

I believe "automatic site searching" refers to the fact that the game will auto-select a province with each casting of the a site searching spell. Sure, you are prompted to select the province and the selection process can be flawed, but it at least chooses a likely candidate for each casting.

I remember when I had to handpick each province beyond the first site searching for that round. If you weren't careful, casting dark knowledge twice could easily search the same province in a row. 3 death gems down the drain.

Note: You can automate the process by setting the mages to cast the site searching spells as monthly rituals (shift+M). These castings won't prompt you to choose a target, which is usually fine, except for the flaws in the selection process. This method won't be very helpful when you are constantly draining your gem supply or if you've searched all provinces from the previous round. It's best for catching up when you fall behind on site finding.

[Endoperez]

When you hover your mouse over a mage, you may press Shift+M to order him to cast a ritual every month. If this ritual is a site-searching one, he'll go through all the available provinces. In current version, provinces which have been searched by a low-level mage aren't considered available.

Have you tried creating a new game with a different name? The bug that's fixed only happens when the new game has the same name as the old game it replaces, AFAIK.

[MaxWilson]

I believe "automatic site searching" refers to the fact that the game will auto-select a province with each casting of the a site searching spell. Sure, you are prompted to select the province and the selection process can be flawed, but it at least chooses a likely candidate for each casting.

I remember when I had to handpick each province beyond the first site searching for that round. If you weren't careful, casting dark knowledge twice could easily search the same province in a row. 3 death gems down the drain.

I don't remember that ever being the case. The flaw, back in 2007, was that when you had *monthly* castings of site search spells the first turn your mages would spread themsleves out as you describe in the first paragraph, but on the second month (i.e. the first month with no UI-based targeting of the spell) they would all pick the same province. I got around this by simply picking 20-odd mages every few turns and having them all cast the site-searching spell that month, then go back to researching. The fact that I can now just set four or five of them to cast monthly is really nice.

Note: You can automate the process by setting the mages to cast the site searching spells as monthly rituals (shift+M). These castings won't prompt you to choose a target, which is usually fine, except for the flaws in the selection process. This method won't be very helpful when you are constantly draining your gem supply or if you've searched all provinces from the previous round. It's best for catching up when you fall behind on site finding.

I don't really mind the "flaws" in the selection process because I don't even really optimize my manual site searching much. Sure I know that wastelands and swamps are supposed to be best for sites, and mountains seem to be good for earth and death, but I have never bothered to go through the site searching database and figure out exactly what the optimum order is to search each kind of terrain for each path, adjusting for province security and distance from enemy fronts. I'm pretty much happy as long as all of my provinces get completely searched eventually. In other words, I view site searching as a form of probabilistic clamming (i.e. clam-forging) which is province-limited instead of commander-limited. E.g. "spend 9 death gems per turn to increase death income by 0 to 2 gems per turn," without bothering to compute exactly what my likely return is going to be.

YMMV though. Some people don't like automatic site-searching at all, and if I have multi-path mages I may do all manual searching until my gem income gets pretty large.

-Max

[AreaOfEffect]

I don't really mind the "flaws" in the selection process because I don't even really optimize my manual site searching much. Sure I know that wastelands and swamps are supposed to be best for sites, and mountains seem to be good for earth and death, but I have never bothered to go through the site searching database and figure out exactly what the optimum order is to search each kind of terrain for each path, adjusting for province security and distance from enemy fronts. I'm pretty much happy as long as all of my provinces get completely searched eventually. In other words, I view site searching as a form of probabilistic clamming (i.e. clam-forging) which is province-limited instead of commander-limited. E.g. "spend 9 death gems per turn to increase death income by 0 to 2 gems per turn," without bothering to compute exactly what my likely return is going to be.

The flaws I'm refering to is that some provinces don't seem to be searched even though manually choosing the province will yield sites. Also, on occassion my mages will select my capitol even though their are other sites left to search. Maybe you never encountered this or you just haven't noticed.

Personally, I don't optimize my manual selections that way either.

[MaxWilson]

The algorithm is that a site-search spell for path X will target the first-numbered province which has not been searched at all for path X and does not already have two or more sites discovered in it. The new patch will apparently go back and revisit these "skipped" provinces (presumably still skipping them if they have already been site-searched at level 4--note that IIRC there are no Air-4 sites so this will technically be suboptimal for some paths unless you have extra sites modded in, but I'm okay with this). When your capitol gets searched it is because your nation has only one magic site in the capitol. thejeff has posted a mod which adds extra sites (with no gems, only some flavor text) to several nations in MA in order to avoid this problem.

-Max

[AreaOfEffect]

Even all of that still doesn't explain why some locations that don't have any magic sites found are skipped yet contain magic sites when manually selected and searched. I suppose this will still occur even after the next patch is released.

[MaxWilson]

Even all of that still doesn't explain why some locations who don't have any magic sites found are skipped yet contain magic sites when manually selected and searched. I suppose this will still occur even after the next patch is released.

Sure it does, unless there are facts you're not telling me. Consider a hypothetical province Green Gallows, which has zero discovered sites, and one undiscovered level 3 death site. If I have searched manually with a D2 mage in Green Gallows, when I monthly-cast Dark Knowledge the automatic site-searching algorithm I outlined will skip Green Gallows because it's been partially searched already for D. The patch enhancement will make it go back and search Green Gallows after all the "prime" locations have been searched. This makes sense because a totally "fresh" province with no discovered sites and no Death searches yet is more likely to have a Death site than Green Gallows is (because a fresh province may produce a D1, D2, D3, or D4 site, whereas Green Gallows will yield only a D3 or D4 site. The number of discovered sites matters because it's relatively improbable to discover a D site in a province which is already known to have e.g. 2 air sites, since the average total number of sites in a province is only about 2 anyway, depending upon what site frequency you are playing with and what the terrain type is). If you crank the math, the site-searching algorithm is already a pretty good rule of thumb for searching. But Green Gallows is not a worthless province even if it is less probable, and in fact we already know that it *does* have a D3 site, so the enhanced algorithm will eventually get around to finding the hidden site.

-Max

[vfb]

There is an Air-4 site which is plains-only. Fire-4 sites are waste or cave only.

Your capitol is also currently targeted for search if your mage is in the capitol and finds no other valid targets. It would be nice if the automatic search spells just didn't cast when there are no targets, instead of targeting the current province.

edit You're talking to fast for me to keep up. :) I though the patch will re-target provinces that have 2 or 3 discovered sites, not provinces that have already been manually searched for the path.

[MaxWilson]

I though the patch will re-target provinces that have 2 or 3 discovered sites, not provinces that have already been manually searched for the path.

Well, I guess we'll find out. AFAIK JK hasn't said anything except what's on the progress page,

"* Monthly site searching with spells stopped targeting when no more prime suspects were available. Now it will go through the less likely locations as well after the good once are searched."

Come the patch, there will now be three categories of provinces: search-ASAP, search-later (new category), and don't-search. Only JK knows for sure which things are getting moved from the don't-search category to the newly-created search-later. It sounded to me like partly-searched provinces would go to search-later but obviously it's possible to read it both ways.
-Max

[AreaOfEffect]

These instances of provinces being passed over have occured when I only site search with spells. Therefore your explaination does not explain what I've encountered. I've already observed the behavior you speak of and accounted for that.

[Skirmisher]

Have you tried creating a new game with a different name? The bug that's fixed only happens when the new game has the same name as the old game it replaces, AFAIK.

Yes renaming did nothing to help.
I have no issues if I want to use a random generated map,generated by the game. I have an issue if I try to load ANY custom made map. They don't want to load. I can see the map previewed before but then in the game its a completely different map. I have issues if I try to use maps generated by RAN DOM,where the proper map isnt loading ,alot like the custom map problem. So I guess this won't be fixed, thats a drag.
I can see my Dom 3 usage going down. Whats the point in having all these pre made maps if you can't use any of them?

[archaeolept]

just restart dominions and it should fix it.

[MaxWilson]

These instances of provinces being passed over have occured when I only site search with spells. Therefore your explaination does not explain what I've encountered. I've already observed the behavior you speak of and accounted for that.

Okay, those are the facts you didn't mention before. :) I don't know, that's kind of weird. Are there any more details you can offer? Do you see this frequently? What are some example provinces that you've seen it happen to, and what sites did they have already, what paths had been searched and to what level, what site search spell were you casting? How long had you owned these provinces? (Maybe information about manual searches from another nation is somehow "leaking" into your own? That would be a bug.)

You might want to write that up for the bug thread.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

just restart dominions and it should fix it.

Did you mean "reinstall"? If that doesn't work, contact Shrapnel tech support because there's something wrong on your computer. Shrapnel tech support is pretty good and should be able to help you well before the next patch comes out.

-Max

[Skirmisher]

just restart dominions and it should fix it.

Did you mean "reinstall"? If that doesn't work, contact Shrapnel tech support because there's something wrong on your computer. Shrapnel tech support is pretty good and should be able to help you well before the next patch comes out.

-Max


I went ahead and reinstalled it.
I began having these problem's right after I installed RAN DOM,so maybe that corrupted my install somehow.

Hopefully it will work right now. As I said before the game would work, but only if I use a game generated random map.

[AreaOfEffect]

Note: The cases listed below are bypassed by all site searching spells, not just one or two. This tends to be a trend with this particular bug. They have also always been this way. Both before and after sites were found there. If they were searched by a spell it was manually selected.

Search status key: [F:A:W:E:S:D:N:B:H]

In the MP game Standards (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=40180):
-Province Dumna (106). It was originally in the possession of Ry'leh. I haven't bothered to search it and so it's search status is [0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0]. Contains Brigand lair and Chitterpalm Oasis.
-Province Tapanete (120). I have owned it the entire game as it borders my cap. Search status is [9:9:9:0:0:0:9:0:3]. Contains Weeping Stones and Grove of Evergreens.
-Province Hamane (194). I have traded this province with Pangaea and Ry'leh regularly. I have owned it the majority and was a constant war zone. Search status is [0:0:0:0:0:0:9:0:2]. Contains Shambler Reef and Ancient Temple.

In the MP game Revenge of Pimpin (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39839):
-Province Aenasia (294). It has been out of my possession once and that was from an indy event. Search status is [9:9:0:0:9:0:9:0:2]. Contains Grove of Evergreens and Desert of Bones.

I'm sure I can relocate more of these if I put some time into it. I think there is a least one in the Collider game I'm playing. I'm actually really into that game and I don't want to publicly scout out my own provinces for my enemies.

[JimMorrison]

Not sure what the bug is? I mean, site searching spells have always bypassed any province with 2+ sites, whether they are level 0, worthless, what have you.

I am really hoping that the new behavior targets not only those that have not been searched at level 4+, but also those that contain 2 provinces already (as well as not ever casting on capitals!). Though I very very rarely do manual searches anymore, so I am mostly hoping for the 2 sites change. :P

[MaxWilson]

-Province Dumna (106). It was originally in the possession of Ry'leh. I haven't bothered to search it and so it's search status is [0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0]. Contains Brigand lair and Chitterpalm Oasis.
-Province Tapanete (120). I have owned it the entire game as it borders my cap. Search status is [9:9:9:0:0:0:9:0:3]. Contains Weeping Stones and Grove of Evergreens.
-Province Hamane (194). I have traded this province with Pangaea and Ry'leh regularly. I have owned it the majority and was a constant war zone. Search status is [0:0:0:0:0:0:9:0:2]. Contains Shambler Reef and Ancient Temple.


Jim is right, these are all covered by the rules cited earlier. They have 2 sites already and are considered non-prime. The way I read JK's note, they will be searched in the next patch as long as there are no "prime" provinces for the path in question (i.e. not searched yet in that path and less than 2 sites known) to take priority.

-Max

[vfb]

Not sure what the bug is? I mean, site searching spells have always bypassed any province with 2+ sites, whether they are level 0, worthless, what have you.

I am really hoping that the new behavior targets not only those that have not been searched at level 4+, but also those that contain 2 provinces already ... :P

What a strange coincidence! I wrote "2 or 3 discovered provinces" myself, before I spotted the typo in my post above.

Anyway, I can't resist micromanaging my site searching in MP, and in the beginning of my SP games. It will take something like Endo's new site mod (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41189) to make me give up and just use the monthly rituals.

[MaxWilson]

What a strange coincidence! I wrote "2 or 3 discovered provinces" myself, before I spotted the typo in my post above.

Yeah, I've done it too, three or four times in this thread, although I think I've edited them all away by now. :)

-Max

[VedalkenBear]

AoE: As others have stated, the issue you refer to does not seem to be outside the bounds of the currently-known algorithm's decision profile.

Something that I do not know (but would like to know) is if the algorithm will site-search a province with a path if an opponent has site-searched that province with that path. E.g., I believe Chitterpalm Oasis is not a 0-level water site; i.e., it must be searched for. Since you have not searched for it, and R'lyeh easily can search for it, it stands to reason that R'lyeh did in fact find it. If this is all true, I would like to know if a casting of Voice of Apsu (on auto-cast) will target this province. Assume for the sake of argument that the Oasis is the only site in the province found thus far. (This is a slight change from AoE's example.)

[vfb]

Currently, if there is only one discovered site in a province, that province will be targeted by all automatic site-searching spells. Even if it's a W-4 site, which means there can't possibly be any more water sites, and you're casting Voice of Aspu.

[AreaOfEffect]

I'm apparently much better at reading your words then you are at reading mine. This is the part of the formula you say answers the question.

The number of discovered sites matters because it's relatively improbable to discover a D site in a province which is already known to have e.g. 2 air sites, since the average total number of sites in a province is only about 2 anyway, depending upon what site frequency you are playing with and what the terrain type is.

This is the part where I insist that this is not the case.

Note: The cases listed below are bypassed by all site searching spells, not just one or two. This tends to be a trend with this particular bug. They have also always been this way. Both before and after sites were found there. If they were searched by a spell it was manually selected.

I am 100% certain that site search was switched off for Tapanete (120) and Aenasia (294) before sites were discovered. I didn't bother to present any other locations because it is tedious and because I wanted to use example locations where sites were found spite the games desire to pass them up.

[Sombre]

I've seen what aoe is talking about as well.

[legowarrior]

So we have to wait all the way till next year before getting a new patch? :)

[MaxWilson]

This is the part where I insist that this is not the case.

Note: The cases listed below are bypassed by all site searching spells, not just one or two. This tends to be a trend with this particular bug. They have also always been this way. Both before and after sites were found there. If they were searched by a spell it was manually selected.

I am 100% certain that site search was switched off for Tapanete (120) and Aenasia (294) before sites were discovered. I didn't bother to present any other locations because it is tedious and because I wanted to use example locations where sites were found spite the games desire to pass them up.

I'm sorry to have pushed your buttons. Please remember that you have an order of magnitude more data than I do about your situation; I only know what you post. The algorithm still obviously applies to Province Dumna, because it has two sites and there is no "before sites were found" since you never searched it (it's 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0). Province Tapanete, Hamane, and Aenasia: you're saying that these were *never* auto-targeted even when there were zero known sites (1 known site in the case of Hamane). I would write that up in the bug discussion thread.

-Max

[Gandalf Parker]

As much as I would love to see this stuff, looking at the progress page and the space of time between patch releases I would say its abit early for anything other than a "pretty please" request for anything real soon.

[MaxWilson]

Gandalf,

Yeah, true. I was slavering over the last fix to monthly site searching for weeks (months?) before it got released. Since I only play about 1 turn of Dominions per day lately, though, waiting a month isn't a big deal for me.

-Max

[AreaOfEffect]

You didn't push any buttons and I'm sure that maybe only half of my examples are actually cases where the algorithm fails.

Still, after all that, I feel that my first statement way back in the beginning is legitimate. The part where I said the selection is a bit flawed, which is separate from saying it is broken by the way.

As for the patch, I can stand to wait if it means it will be loaded with a handful of more goodies. Nothing on that list screams "gotta have it!"

[Skirmisher]

Turns out I had a corrupt installation. After I re-installed the game and patched to latest version,it works fine.
So I can wait as long as it takes for a patch because the games not bugged,it was corrupted by the RanDom program somehow.

I'm back in buisness.

[MaxWilson]

@Skirmisher,

That's great! I'm glad it worked.

-Max

[AreaOfEffect]

:up:

[Gandalf Parker]

Good to know so we can tell others when they have the same problem

[NTJedi]

Dec 30th Patch Update:
* AI cannot ignore sea of ice and similar restrictions.
* AI could ignore target restrictions for rituals like Tidal Wave in some circumstances, fixed.

This is great news! :ham:
Thanks KO and JK !!

[zzcat]

1st january 2009
* Ryujin
* Shark Warrior
* Shrimp Soldier
* Crab General


At last we can see oriental dragon king and their minions!!!:fire:

[JimMorrison]

*Rock Lobster
*Crab People
*Tentacle Toes
*Street Urchin


>.>

[lch]

*Rock Lobster
A Rock Lobster! The Rock Iguana's natural enemy (http://www.octopuspie.com/2008-10-20/210-erics-florida-roo/). :shock:
http://i40.tinypic.com/287iuxs.jpg

[BesucherXia]

I am now feeling it unfair to give Jomon so much enchancement. Heck, what they have got alone can be turned into a brand new race.

How about another nation with good amphibian capability based on oriental myth?

[Sombre]

How is it 'unfair'? I don't get it :/

You mean it's not fair to cultures other than Japan?

[Gandalf Parker]

I was thinking that might be a sign of an LA Oceania

[Spendios]

1st january 2009
* Ryujin
* Shark Warrior
* Shrimp Soldier
* Crab General


Ryujin is for Jomon but what are the others ?

-neutral critters ?
-aquatic summons ?
-new nation of angry crustaceans ?

[Donny]

I believe the shrimp soldiers and crab generals come from Tien Chi's myths.

[BesucherXia]

How is it 'unfair'? I don't get it :/

You mean it's not fair to cultures other than Japan?

I thought we have right now many other nations with very little changes back to the release of Dom3. It's always good to add new contents into an existing race, but to some scale they could be so rich that we feel that favored race like a star while other nations are of less fun.
Further more, each nation has its gem limited, which means too many national summons will eventually make parts of them like niche ones. I thought that could be a waste.

Hmmm... I know I should always try improving my English. Hope that havenot made trouble with others.

[Sombre]

No your English was fine BesucherXia, I just didn't see why you felt it was unfair.

I agree that certain nations are a lot 'richer' than others. Compare Lanka, for instance, with Vanheim or Utgard. Or Tienchi with Midgard.

[JimMorrison]

Well in many people's eyes, all that Jomon even has right now, is the "fun", if even that. These summons aren't supposed to add fun, but add punch to what is widely considered one of the weakest nations in the game.

[Sombre]

They're supposed to make it stronger? Who says? I doubt KO has expressed that.

[JimMorrison]

They're supposed to make it stronger? Who says? I doubt KO has expressed that.

Actually, he stated specifically that the summons introduced in the last patch were more for flavor than anything, but that those that are to come, will have a much greater impact on the nation's viability.

If I had even the foggiest clue which thread that was from, I'd link it, but I'm totally at a loss to find it.....

I lied - http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=652128&postcount=36

[legowarrior]

If Jomon are the ofthe new patch, I'd love to see a version of them in the middle age, where magic and summons would be more common.

[MaxWilson]

MA Jomon = Shinuyama. And Shinuyama is pretty nifty, IMO.

-Max

[legowarrior]

It's not really the same though, is it, between the Jomon and the Shinuyama? The troops are completely different, and for the most part the summons are too. True you have access to the same summons, but Jomon have trouble summoning Oni and the Shinuyama can summon them quite easily.

I guess I should say that it would be cool to have a Human Centric or a Tengui centric side to counter balance the Shinuyama or the Oni, much like the Lanka seem to be a blood parallel of the Kailasa.

[MaxWilson]

I see, then. Yes, it would be cool, particularly the Tengui-centric idea. I like your idea w/rt paralleling Lanka (or Vanheim/Helheim).

-Max

[legowarrior]

But I do have to agree with your earlier statement Shinuyama are nifty.
Now, the rumors is that the next patch will add some summons to the Jomon that will add to their overall power. Will any of the general troops of the Jomon be changed or is it just things are being added?

[BesucherXia]

Just like they have improved the attributes of ulmish black plates, some small tweaks can also help a nation a lot. There are many unique stuffs in the Japanese armory. I guess the alike tricks work for them as well.

I am also more for a parallel race. Assigning those amphibian units different equipments and they can form the bulk of a brand new force to give LA Rlyeh another competitor. Or maybe let us enlist them via special sites? At least in Chinese tales those shrimps and crabs minions are not very competitive warriors, that's part of the reason why I doubt they will truly help improving Jomon. Making them national units seems to be more reasonable for me.

[MaxWilson]

You actually can already recruit kappas from certain poptypes--I don't know if there's a site that lets you recruit them too (like Shamblers), but definitely you will sometimes come across a province that lets you recruit kappas.

-Max

[Aezeal]

I doubt adding summons will severly effect a nations power, better change the recruitables a bit since that is the problem usually.

[Spendios]

IAt least in Chinese tales those shrimps and crabs minions are not very competitive warriors, that's part of the reason why I doubt they will truly help improving Jomon. Making them national units seems to be more reasonable for me.

Could you please give us some more details about these monsters in mythology ? It looks interesting.

[Tifone]

1st january 2009
* Shark Warrior
* Shrimp Soldier
* Crab General


DUM-DUM-DUUUUUM!!


http://imgboot.com/images/Tifone/cocktailshrimp.jpg

:D

[eastsnow]

<a href="http://www.ycool.com/photo.php?uid=1001092&paid=1272149&id=27417955"><img src="http://node2.foto.ycstatic.com/200901/04/3/27417955.jpg" border="0" /></a>

[MaxWilson]

I doubt adding summons will severly effect a nations power, better change the recruitables a bit since that is the problem usually.

Summons can affect a nation's power mainly by adding magic diversity or thug chassises, which are mid- or late-game considerations. The only summons I know of that affects early-ish game power is Umbrals and Magma Children for Agartha. Which are awesome, BTW.

-Max

[Tifone]

Unfortunately Umbrals are made mid-game at best in CBM :(

[Gandalf Parker]

Personally I think there are too many summons.
Dont get me wrong. I LOVE playing with them. But it seems like 90% of the national spells are summons. Summons are probably easier and more fun to come up with but it seems as if some very thematic spells fitting each nation could be scattered into other areas of magic.

[MaxWilson]

Unfortunately Umbrals are made mid-game at best in CBM :(

:) I play vanilla. Well, plus some random houserules to boost boring units (vampires are ethereal, for instance--which makes vampire attack events really fun ;) ).

-Max

[chrispedersen]

Yeah, level 7 iirc with CBM - which I think is one level too high really judging agartha on its merits.

But I agree with you max on magma children.

[Tifone]

Yeah, level 7 iirc with CBM - which I think is one level too high really judging agartha on its merits.

You took it from my mouth ;)

[BesucherXia]

IAt least in Chinese tales those shrimps and crabs minions are not very competitive warriors, that's part of the reason why I doubt they will truly help improving Jomon. Making them national units seems to be more reasonable for me.

Could you please give us some more details about these monsters in mythology ? It looks interesting.

Well, actually I do not think they could be called "monsters". They are more like regular soldiers of the Sea Palace in Chinese tales, and are always beaten easily by heroes like flies though in great number. Their roles are so minor that I can hardly recall any detail description of them...
In Chinese speech, there is even a phase about "shrimp soldiers and crab generals" to imply soldiers of poor quality, just because they always mean nothing for the Chinese heroes in mythology.

Anyway, the photo posted by eastsnow is an interesting image. I am also looking forward to KO's work.

[AreaOfEffect]

Personally I think there are too many summons.
Dont get me wrong. I LOVE playing with them. But it seems like 90% of the national spells are summons. Summons are probably easier and more fun to come up with but it seems as if some very thematic spells fitting each nation could be scattered into other areas of magic.

I would agree. It's spells like Inner Furnace, Dreams of Ry'leh, and Celestial Chastisement that I would would much rather see for other nations. Its better to have a nitch battle spell then a nitch summon in my opinion.

[Gandalf Parker]

They probably are harder to come up with. The summons fits in with Kristoffers day job and easily flows over. Plus summons appear to be easier to mod so Im guessing the same is true for writing them into the game.

Conjuration has most. Enchantment and Blood have their fair share. But wouldnt it be great for trading in-game if a Construction "spell" gave Ulm the ability to make special armor?
It seems that some nations might concentrate on researching Aleration (defense?) and another on Evocation (offense?). And I always thought of Arcos as being Thaumaturgy.

[SlipperyJim]

I doubt adding summons will severly effect a nations power, better change the recruitables a bit since that is the problem usually.
*cough* Lanka! *cough*

Lanka's summons can completely replace their national troops, and you don't pay upkeep for most of them. Starting with Rakshasa Warriors at Blood-4 (!), Lanka doesn't need to recruit soldiers for anything except patrolling duty ever again....

[MaxWilson]

Well, actually I do not think they could be called "monsters". They are more like regular soldiers of the Sea Palace in Chinese tales, and are always beaten easily by heroes like flies though in great number. Their roles are so minor that I can hardly recall any detail description of them...
In Chinese speech, there is even a phase about "shrimp soldiers and crab generals" to imply soldiers of poor quality, just because they always mean nothing for the Chinese heroes in mythology.


This is valuable information! Thanks.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

Conjuration has most. Enchantment and Blood have their fair share. But wouldnt it be great for trading in-game if a Construction "spell" gave Ulm the ability to make special armor?
It seems that some nations might concentrate on researching Aleration (defense?) and another on Evocation (offense?). And I always thought of Arcos as being Thaumaturgy.

I know this would still be a summon, technically, but you could have a spell which allows a master smith to forge himself armor (magic suit of armor like the Green Knight, or whatever) by doing something like Banquet for the Dead: casting the spell kills the caster, but you get another unit in exchange. Maybe the new form has no hand slots but built in lifedrain weapons and Prot 20, or something.

-Max

[AreaOfEffect]

Modding new spells is actually a lot easier then modding new creatures. All of the graphics that you will ever use are already in the game and can be accessed by identifying it by number. The effects are also easy to manipulate once you've gotten hold of a detailed magic modding spreadsheet. Also, there are far fewer stats to adjust.

The spell concepts aren't that hard to come up with once you use a bit of imagination. Its also really easy to reuse existing effects without generating too much overlap. Spite the fact that there are three regular spells that grant quickness, Celestial Music, the Bandar Log national spell, does the same thing and yet is unlike all of them. Why? Because several of the parameters have been changed. It hits the entire battlefield, it only effects magic beings, it needs astral magic rather then water magic, and is researched under enchantment rather then alteration.

Besides, even the summoning spells could use some more variety. Most of them are the same. You cast the spell and a unit appears in the province where you cast the spell. More of the spells could be remote casting spells or assassination spells or battlefield summons in my opinion.

For example. The Simargl is a national summon for Bogarus. This nation has a huge amount of national summons. There is almost no reason for the shear number of the normal summons they have. The simargl, in my opinion, is a niche summon that mainly assists in patrolling provinces. It would have been reasonable in my opinion to make it an assassination spell and restrict it so that you can't target enemy provinces (in the way site searching spells can't target provinces you don't control). Then make the attacking unit just tough enough to take out a scout and not much else. Now you've changed the dynamic of Bogarus so it actually plays differently.

[Sombre]

Modding new spells is actually a lot easier then modding new creatures. All of the graphics that you will ever use are already in the game and can be accessed by identifying it by number. The effects are also easy to manipulate once you've gotten hold of a detailed magic modding spreadsheet. Also, there are far fewer stats to adjust.

So you've used fx numbers, 'flysprites' etc for spells and it's worked as anticipated?

I admit I haven't tried it in a while and it might have been fixed since, but the last time I did we didn't have the fx numbers - the modding manual pointed to flysprites used for weapons incorrectly and of course, those didn't work.

[AreaOfEffect]

I've played with the sprites before and they worked out fine for what I was doing. Though I admit that was a little while back. They may not be cataloged, but a little play testing will help you locate the ones you want easily. Just know that sprites are grouped together into similar effects with different coloring. Use a battle where you used the spell and just reload it after each adjustment as the sprites will change accordingly. Its not as bad as creating a unit graphic one pixel at a time in my opinion.

I would imagine that, for the developers, the creation of new battlefield spells would be easier then making new summons. Assuming they've documented their work in the slightest.

[Sombre]

So you just tried random numbers until you got something for the #flightspr? I believe even the range of allowable numbers was only revealed recently.

#Explspr has been semi-documented all along.

I couldn't remember the names for them and didn't have my mod manual at work.

[chrispedersen]

Conjuration has most. Enchantment and Blood have their fair share. But wouldnt it be great for trading in-game if a Construction "spell" gave Ulm the ability to make special armor?
It seems that some nations might concentrate on researching Aleration (defense?) and another on Evocation (offense?). And I always thought of Arcos as being Thaumaturgy.

I know this would still be a summon, technically, but you could have a spell which allows a master smith to forge himself armor (magic suit of armor like the Green Knight, or whatever) by doing something like Banquet for the Dead: casting the spell kills the caster, but you get another unit in exchange. Maybe the new form has no hand slots but built in lifedrain weapons and Prot 20, or something.

-Max


Wink.. besides.. rebirth still works = )

[Spendios]

Thread necromancy :D

[Tifone]

They are more like regular soldiers of the Sea Palace in Chinese tales, and are always beaten easily by heroes like flies though in great number. Their roles are so minor that I can hardly recall any detail description of them...
In Chinese speech, there is even a phase about "shrimp soldiers and crab generals" to imply soldiers of poor quality, just because they always mean nothing for the Chinese heroes in mythology.

And that definitively shows that I'm not a Chinese hero, as I'm having huge problems with even just one shrimp soldier!! :o

http://imgboot.com/images/Tifone/shrimpie.jpg
(Taken by my gf at Munchen during new year's holidays :D)

Fortunately, as it shows, I HandOfDeathed its face and saved the day :cool:

[Trumanator]

Too bad Hand of Death is the left hand :D

[Tifone]

Nice spot :p

[Aezeal]

Hey, I want the patch it's got my much needed new terrain commands in it.

give it please :D

[Edi]

Hey, I want the patch it's got my much needed new terrain commands in it.

give it please :D
Those new terrain commands won't do you much good unless instructions on how to use them are added to the mapmaking manual, which is not happening before tomorrow at the earliest. So patience.

[NTJedi]

25th january 2009
* Support for battle ground look commands in map editor.


Sounds very kool ! :)

[rdonj]

Another really nifty thing for the patch, for me at least, would be if we could tell how much longer a dome/astral window will last when we are the one that cast it. It's nice to know that it's there, but if you don't write down somewhere what turn it's supposed to end, it's very easy to forget.

[zzcat]

Relief of Conch Soldier & Crab General found in a Chinese website, There is a turtle warrior wielding two falchions:D

http://hiphotos.baidu.com/%C7%E5%C1%F7%CA%AF%C9%CF/pic/item/4249bac2e4eb142fe5dd3bda.jpeg

http://hiphotos.baidu.com/%C7%E5%C1%F7%CA%AF%C9%CF/pic/item/4249bac2e4e7142fe5dd3bde.jpeg

[archaeolept]

haha, those are very nice

[Zargen]

Rise thread! Rise from the grave!


Sorry for the necromancy but I have a question. I can't seem to find any of the summons, my Dom3 is the correct version(3.23b) But I can't figure where the summons for those crab general and shrimp soldiers are at :mad: Little point in the right direction for me, anyone?

[Micah]

Build an underwater fort and hit the recruit button.

[Gregstrom]

Oh, and make sure you're playing Jomon of course :D

[Sombre]

They do seem like they would be summons though, it's true. Still it makes Jomon more interesting with them being recruits.

[mathusalem]

with witch unit do you build a temple under water, with jonon ?

[Endoperez]

with witch unit do you build a temple under water, with jonon ?

Any priest will do, the trouble is getting one underwater. Rings of Water Breathing or Shambler Skin Armors are just 5 water gems.

A mage-priest is best, so that you can also build a lab to recruit mages. That'd probably be a Monk of the Fivefold Path.