Armour vs. civilian

[m113apc]

I had this thought that I had to try out.
Israel vs. PLO, Israel attack.
I sat up a small battle, 20 x 20 map, with a platoon (3 MBT) of Merkava Mk4b against 4 platoons of civilians (rock throwing protesters).

My question was, could these rock throwing protesters knock out a Merkava, and they could.

My intention all the time was to try to make this happen.
I drove around just waiting, and they popped up or run away.
But when I had a chance, I stopped my vehicle in the middle of a crowd, waiting. And it happened. Boom, they blew me up, and killed my crew, if the crew survived.

So, my question is this.
Is this realistic?
If these civilians had a grenade, or a pistol or something, they might knock out a MBT, if the MBT was in a street, with no sight and the crew had their hatches open, but knock out a MBT with stones?

Any thoughts?

[Koh]

Take it as the civilians climbed on your tank, pulled the crewmembers out from the open hatches and beat them to death with the stones. Just because the icon for a destroyed unit always shows a vehicle on fire, it doesn't mean that the vehicle blows up and catches on fire every time it's destroyed. It's just another abstraction. The MBT is just as knocked out in game terms, regardless of what kills the crew.

So yeah it is realistic that the tank, which you parked in the middle of the street with hatches open with a crew instructed not to fire at the enemy, to get knocked out in this fashion.

[PanzerBob]

Try the same with Infantry Support, The IDF has it's urban warfare stuff together and a lone or even 3 MBT's without Infantry Support doesn't sound like it would happen. IMHO

Bob out:D

[m113apc]

Well, that’s a thought since the first unit was ready, not buttoned up or anything.

But what about my two other MBTs that was buttoned up, all hatches closed?

One of them was destroyed, the other was immobile.

The Merkava Mk 4 is an awesome weapon, built special for urban warfare, so it’s still a thought, isn’t it?

[m113apc]

Sorry Bob, you had already replied while I was writing my reply, so I didn’t see it before posting.

Of course you don’t drive around in a urban environment without infantry support, that is asking for trouble.

But the question still remains, how can you knock out a buttoned up MBT like the Merkava, or which MBT you would choose by throwing rocks?

[Mobhack]

Sorry Bob, you had already replied while I was writing my reply, so I didn’t see it before posting.

Of course you don’t drive around in a urban environment without infantry support, that is asking for trouble.

But the question still remains, how can you knock out a buttoned up MBT like the Merkava, or which MBT you would choose by throwing rocks?

Any infantry can destroy tanks by close assaulting them.

Those without A/T weapons may well run away in tank panic or become severely suppressed if they fail.

"Rocks" are not rocks - they are a class 1 infantry weapon with range 1 (or 2?). The game has no "rock" or "spear" or "bow" weapon classes. So they ripped open a hatch and sprayed the insides of the tank crew compartment with a class 1 HE weapon.

Before WW2, some Abyssinian tribesmen dealt with an Italian tankette by swarming it and then manually flipping it onto its back. Then they lit a fire under it.

Cheers
Andy

[PanzerBob]

Boils Down to where there is a will there is a way!

Bob out:cool:

[Listy]

So, my question is this.
Is this realistic?
If these civilians had a grenade, or a pistol or something, they might knock out a MBT, if the MBT was in a street, with no sight and the crew had their hatches open, but knock out a MBT with stones?

Any thoughts?

Very realistic.

Bloke nonchalantly walks up beside the Tank.
Bloke then pulls the external Fire Extinguisher system handle.
Tank is knocked out, Crew have a strong incentive to get out.

Tank-jacking is easy if you have the right tools, and the Tank is not going to fire back (as is the case in the test you ran).

[Marcello]

Take it as the civilians climbed on your tank, pulled the crewmembers out from the open hatches and beat them to death with the stones. Just because the icon for a destroyed unit always shows a vehicle on fire, it doesn't mean that the vehicle blows up and catches on fire every time it's destroyed. It's just another abstraction. The MBT is just as knocked out in game terms, regardless of what kills the crew.


Well,if you have managed to open the hatches and lynch the crew, setting it on fire and maybe blowing it up is the easy part.
Scrounge a can of gasoline or whatever, pour it inside and light it up. The firefighting system cannot be that good.

[Marek_Tucan]

Remeber that tank rampage when some nutjob stole an M-60 near LA (IIRC) a while ago? It ended with a police officer - ex tanker - opening the driver's hatch and putting bullet into his head when the tank got stuck. A suitable stone would work as well I suppose.

[Wdll]

Man, these tanks could sure use a lock.

[BaronvonBeer]

They do, just in Hollywood they never seem to be used. ;)

Guess in game, the small % of getting it done is the TC who forgot to secure it, or left it so to allow quickly taking a peak now and then.

[Mobhack]

Man, these tanks could sure use a lock.

Locking the hatches would mean a few more seconds to get out of a burner, should it happen. Or the thing could jam. It could mean the difference between making it out or becoming a crispy critter. I doubt I would dog the hatches, if I were an AFV crewman.

Cheers
Andy

[m113apc]

They do have good locks, even the good old M113 APC have the ability to lock all the hatches, access lids to the cooling system, fuel tank, engine room from inside the crew compartmen.

Does the Merkava Mk4 have an external Fire Extinguisher system handle?

The MBTs, IFVs and APCs I have worked on, all the Fire Extinguisher system have been to the engine room, and the bottles stored in the crew compartment.

In my case there are only two vehicles that I have worked on, where you have external Fire Extinguisher system handle, and that is the M113, which I also have been a commander on, and the CV9030N IFV. But, the Fire Extinguisher still goes to the engine room, and does no harm to the crew.

I find this question very interesting.
But, I ran the test and these rock throwing dudes managed to knock out my tanks, but with a very good help from me.

And like Mobhack wrote:
"Rocks" are not rocks - they are a class 1 infantry weapon with range 1 (or 2?). The game has no "rock" or "spear" or "bow" weapon classes. So they ripped open a hatch and sprayed the insides of the tank crew compartment with a class 1 HE weapon.

I just have to visualize these individuals ripping up a hatch, these hatches usually is a though nut to crack, believe me, I have a couple of them on my conscience. And even with the right tool, time and a peaceful environment they are a hard nut to crack.

Anyway, I enjoy reading about all the “gung ho” ways to knock out a tank.
Thx all :D

[gingertanker]

If the crew si stupid enoug hand you know how to do it, yes, you could take out a Merkava with out any weapons exept for rocks. You will require a very large set of balls though. Israeli tanks that get overrun by infantry are fired on by the other tanks with MG and Flacchets, as a drill. They also fire WP and turn their turets 360 degrees. If someone dose open the hatch the crew has M16s and they will use those. They will also put a granade on out and reclose the hatch. All in all its not probabale, but possible. As for flipping a merkava over, you would need alot of people. as for lighting a fire on it/ under it, it wouldent do you much good.

[Wdll]

The tank crew has M16s??? Why not M4s or Uzi? M16s are a bit long.

[DRG]

The point is, as Andy noted, it is possible in the game any "infantry" unit to knock out a tank in a close assault even though, in the case of "rocks" they do not actually have an HE kill rating. It's a long shot but it COULD happen and the odds increase if you deliberatly set up a "scenario" where the crew allows a mob to overrun their tank and do whatever they want to it. Had there been even rudimentary infantry support or the crew was allowed to fight back the odds of this happening drop dramatically

Don

[gingertanker]

The tank crew has M16s??? Why not M4s or Uzi? M16s are a bit long.

Sorry, we call all of the diffrent M16 versions here "M16", regardless of them being short/sawed/heavy barrel and so on. Tank crews have either what you would call "CAR-15" or Israeli made Sawed-Off M16s.

[Pazam]

Speaking as a former IDF tank driver, the personal weapon was the short-barreled Galil, not the M16. The M16 is much too fragile because of the soft plastic it uses - when you throw it onto the tank it would just crack.

[gingertanker]

Speaking as a former IDF tank driver, the personal weapon was the short-barreled Galil, not the M16. The M16 is much too fragile because of the soft plastic it uses - when you throw it onto the tank it would just crack.

Speaking as a much younger and humbler ex-IDF tank commander, we switched to short M16s in 2004/2005. I had the Galil and afterwards the M16. I agree the Galil is more durable, but the M16 dose not break or anything. You just need to clean it better than the Galil. On the plus side its much lighter, and its much more accurate.