What do you like to do when you're not dead yet?

[vfb]

In multiplayer, there comes a time in many a nation's story when they realize that they are pretty much doomed to obscurity, and have very little chance of winning.

What do you like to do when this is your nation?

What aggravates you about other player's choice of actions?

I think almost every time I'm killed or am doomed to die, I've chosen a different path. Anyway, if you've got an answer that's not in the poll, I'll update this post to include it.

To start, here's the options I can think of (leaving out vanishing/disappearing, which is not nice IMO). I think at one point or another I've done all of these. The two times I've done world-ravaging, I at least thought I had a small chance of victory, by trying to kill off all the mages and destroy the income of other nations. Well, one time I had a small chance of victory, the other time I'd have to characterize it more as a miniscule chance.

- Fight to the last man
- Choose another nation to help win
- Ravage the world/Scorched earth
- Ignore the bigger picture and fight your own little wars
- Donate all your gems & items to your conqueror and go AI
- Donate all your gems & items to your enemy's enemies and go AI
- Just go AI
- Ignore the game and let your nation stale
- Use it as a chance to test weird ideas

[Illuminated One]

You should add hurt the player who's responsible for you loosing as much as you can.

[Aezeal]

yes that is what I would do :D

[Aezeal]

I've put that under ignore the bigger picture and fight own little wars.. but it might as well fit under fight till the last man, not mutually exclusive. After that I donate to my enemies enemies and go AI (when my army and provicne are gone)

[vfb]

You should add hurt the player who's responsible for you loosing as much as you can.

Oh, I think that's what I meant by "fight to the last man." Or if you're talking about pillaging your own provinces, that's "scorched earth".

I should have probably made "ravage the world" and "scorched earth" separate choices, because I've only done the former. But there's only 10 poll options.

[Agema]

If I were doomed to irrelevance, I'd generally just fight my own little wars until the inevitable. Although if one of the major contenders had been a longstanding, friendly nation to mine, I'd probably back them up as a sort of vassal empire, and assist them where possible.

I think it's also a good time to test stuff out, and if utter ruin arrives, hand all you have you to your most loyal ally or your conqueror's worst enemy.

[Thilock_Dominus]

I rarely play MP, but when I do and it seems hopeless I'll "Ignore the bigger picture and fight your own little wars".


Grab what you can and so much as possible ;)

[Edi]

Fight to the last man! And help somebody else if I had allies/friends (such as is possible in a game of "There can only be One!").

[Tifone]

I tend to like having good friends in game, and sending them a last dispatch by a dying messenger with my last gems and wills seems thematic and nice :)

[Gandalf Parker]

Short Answer: retribution

I rarely start wars so there is always someone who has chosen to take me out. In some cases Ive been able to see that they really had no choice such as having taken every indept between us and must reach someone else but I am in the way. Those I let off the hook.

On the other hand, being someones fodder, or "because its a war game", tends to draw my response. My choices of nations are often capable of harassing someone even after Ive lost my castle and provinces. My response tends to be "OK you have taken me out in your effort to win so my parting action will be doing whatever I can to make sure you dont either". Either harass or send my goods and information to his enemy for as long as possible.

You dont have to be able to win to be able to help decide the winner

[Sombre]

How do you harass someone after you've lost your castle and provinces? You're dead.

[Gandalf Parker]

Not if you still have dominion and clerics, and can keep a steady snatch/pillage going on his provinces.

[Sombre]

Oh I didn't realise you could survive as long as you have dominion. I thought 0 provinces 0 forts would do it.

[thejeff]

O provinces does do it.

I'd guess he's talking about raiding enough to always have at least one province, even if you can't hold it. Thus the "steady snatch/pillage going on his provinces."

[BesucherXia]

Sometimes I would even consider burning the world altogether with me like casting Burden of Time and hiding the caster somewhere among the people in a minor castle.

Well... That seems like a terrorist.

Edit: Oh I see this should be grouped into "ravage the world".

[WingedDog]

I think there should be sticky in MP forum section with rules of ingame bahaviour, such as: all the insulting speeches should be adressed to the nation, not to player controling it; never threat a war to player in another game for some actions he made in current game; never give gold, gems or items to another player in one game in order to receive gold, gems or items from him in another game; and finally, if you do not want to play anymore, please respect all other players enough to inform them about it, so they could find a sub, or at least put yourself to AI.

Personaly I never set myself to AI yet - I try to fight until I can do at least minor damage to my opponent(s), when I have noone left to fight I send all my money, gems and items to people who helped me, or to enemies of my enemies, and continue to send money/gems every turn until I lose my last province.

[rdonj]

From the depths of hell, I stab at thee!

[Grottnikk]

You remember in Scooby Doo when at the end of every episode the bad guy says, "And I'd have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you pesky kids!". I like to be those pesky kids. :p

I often play nations with sneaky troops, so I like to be the thorn in the side of whoever has gotten too big for their britches. Even when it looks like the end is nigh, I just might have a few hundred troops sitting 10 provinces away from your conquering army. Kinda like a LOLcat, "I'm behind ur linez! Infiltratin' yer provincez!" :D

But yes, I would definitely screw with whoever was killing me as much as possible before they finished me off.

[Sombre]

A few hundred troops = a light snack to a teleporting SC.

[thejeff]

But a few hundred stealth troops are hard to hit, even with a teleporter.

[Gandalf Parker]

Oh I didn't realise you could survive as long as you have dominion. I thought 0 provinces 0 forts would do it.
Stealth preachers is probably an important factor as I was doing it. The game seems to declare you dead when it feels you cannot recover. For nations with no stealth preacher already purchased and active then losing your last province would probably be the nail on the coffin.

[thejeff]

Gandalf, are you actually saying you've been reduced to no provinces and kept playing?

I rarely keep playing that long, but I know one of the messages you get when an AI loses is something about not ruling any provinces. I'll grant that the AI is unlikely to have stealth preachers hidden away, but I assumed the message was specific about the cause.

Should be near impossible to actually destroy Vanheim then. Uber stealth preachers hidden throughout the world and just watch the rest of the game.
Lack of income will eventually remove any troops, but shouldn't effect commanders.

[Micah]

Always to the last man, but the degree of spite that goes with it depends on the situation...I've done the whole spectrum from pillaging my own provinces on the way out after being backstabbed to donating gems to my conqueror when I lost the war I started with him. A more or less fair and justified war will generally get a donation to the enemy of my enemy but relatively pristine provinces.

[JimMorrison]

Oh I didn't realise you could survive as long as you have dominion. I thought 0 provinces 0 forts would do it.
Stealth preachers is probably an important factor as I was doing it. The game seems to declare you dead when it feels you cannot recover. For nations with no stealth preacher already purchased and active then losing your last province would probably be the nail on the coffin.

.........


XXXX, the god of XXXX has been permanently vanquished, at the end he did not rule a single province, and he now has nowhere to return.


I suppose due to the wording, there is the slight chance that a stealthy pretender could survive beyond this exact point, as long as they were physically alive - but other than the Lord of Night (sic?), are there any others?

[Illuminated One]

never threat a war to player in another game for some actions he made in current game; never give gold, gems or items to another player in one game in order to receive gold, gems or items from him in another game

Lol!
I'd never have thought of that.
Ok, I wouldn't do it but it's a very funny idea.

[DonCorazon]

I have become a convert to the last man philosophy. I will never go AI. Also, degree of aggression on my part depends on the circumstances. If the aggresor is someone I was trying to make peace with then but they attacked anyway, then I will do all I can to harm them and help their foes.

If it was a war that I instigated (something I do on ocassion :) )that went sour - god forbid, I might even give my enemy my gems to help keep them in the race, since it always bothers me how turtlers or dogpilers have an edge over those who fight a fair one on one war (rare as those may be).

I think people underestimate how hard it can be to take a capital, so even when you have been knocked out of a game, you can still make it pretty tough for your enemy to capture the jewel of your nation - the capital - if you just stick it out. Too many people just go AI after losing a few provinces.

It can be fun just to see how long you can stay alive. And turns certainly are easy when you are down to one province.

[Amorphous]

I try to stay true to the disposition of the pretender - meaning that it entirely depends on how I have chosen to play till then.

A benevolent and good natured pretender will try to help a like minded pretender and try to secure future benefits for his believers. Pretenders of a generally evil disposition will mostly go for total annihilation of everything or spiting the major contributors to their downfall.

Most pretenders will fight to the bitter end as hope is usually the last thing lost.

In such cases I tend to try new and possibly strange ideas. Since all else failed, new thinking is obviously required.

[Gandalf Parker]

I think there should be sticky in MP forum section with rules of ingame bahaviour,
Feel free to start one and at some point we may sticky it or at least link to it in another sticky (maybe the MP servers one?)

And even the moderators and staff do enforce some of those on this forum, Im not sure you can call it "rules".
Acceptable Guidelines?
MultiPlayer Ettiquette?
Justification for Shunning?

What you have isnt a bad start. But others have tried to create lists of rules, or "standard" game settings (nations banned, spells banned, etc) to make it easier to start games clearly by just referring to them like someone would the Marquis of Queensbury Rules or Roberts Rules of Order. But it usually turned out to be more trouble agreeing on than the poster thought it would be.

[Gandalf Parker]

I think Id generally prefer that people play it out.

Do not go quietly into the night
rage rage rage against the dying of the light - Dylan Thomas
What does that mean? It means dont be a putz and quit the
multiplayer game before all of your candles are snuffed!

On the other hand, if people would go AI when they quit a server game then all of the dominions servers would be much easier to "clean up" and keep only currently played games going on.

[Gandalf Parker]

I suppose due to the wording, there is the slight chance that a stealthy pretender could survive beyond this exact point, as long as they were physically alive - but other than the Lord of Night (sic?), are there any others?
I was using Lord of the Wild which is one of my favorites.
Ghost King, Vampire Queen, Master Druid are all standard to all nations I think.

[AreaOfEffect]

If it isn't the end-game, I will likely fight to the last man. I'll even pull a Gandalf and try my best to maintain dominion and a province. In my last turn I pass my belongings to someone else.

More often though I see the end of the game as it approaches. This is a little different. I suppose I still fight to the last man, but I also like to experiment. I might even get a tad lazy since I know that I can't affect the end at all. Though a part of that has to do with committing to other games that have more promise.

[Darkwind]

I've tended to go down to the last man in the (admittedly few) MP games I've played. Though, in all of them I somehow managed to end with a war with THE big player or A big player. I don't think I'd ever go AI though. Trying to deal massive damage (giant enemy crab!) is really fun. I'll probably end up experimenting too. Will this formation of 50 researchers, all set to Cast Generic Fireball Compensation actually stop the enemy army? How much damage could it do? Would it be more effective if I gave them Fire Swords, mass buffs and set them to "Charge of the Unarmored Brigade"?

Oh man, now I actually want to do this stuff.

[vfb]

I think there should be sticky in MP forum section with rules of ingame bahaviour, such as: all the insulting speeches should be adressed to the nation, not to player controling it; never threat a war to player in another game for some actions he made in current game; never give gold, gems or items to another player in one game in order to receive gold, gems or items from him in another game; and finally, if you do not want to play anymore, please respect all other players enough to inform them about it, so they could find a sub, or at least put yourself to AI.

Personaly I never set myself to AI yet - I try to fight until I can do at least minor damage to my opponent(s), when I have noone left to fight I send all my money, gems and items to people who helped me, or to enemies of my enemies, and continue to send money/gems every turn until I lose my last province.

There's the excellent Sheap's rules post, but it never got stickied:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=32050

[WingedDog]

There's the excellent Sheap's rules post, but it never got stickied:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=32050


Well, I think it should be. If there's is a sticky with forum rules, there definately should be the one with ingame rules as well.

[Gandalf Parker]

There's the excellent Sheap's rules post, but it never got stickied:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=32050

Added to the MP server sticky altho eventually a merger of both sets might be best.

[Executor]

HAHAHAHAH, I wonder which game started this thread, thanks Vfb and Quiti

If I am backstabed, I'll do everything in my power to kill and ruin that bastard.
Will do anything in my power to wreck all diplomacy in the game and try to manipulate people or help decide who the winner is by sending everything I've got. Depends on the situation.

Originally Posted by WingedDog
never threat a war to player in another game for some actions he made in current game; never give gold, gems or items to another player in one game in order to receive gold, gems or items from him in another game

I agree about the first part, about threats, but I'd keep those players on a watch list in other games, but not about the second part. Why not?

[Gandalf Parker]

Well, I think it should be. If there's is a sticky with forum rules, there definately should be the one with ingame rules as well.

I wouldnt argue that. But they arent the same thing.
Forum Rules are easier to settle on and enforce. Game Rules tend to be debatable and voluntary.
But they do deserve a place in the stickies.

[vfb]

Maybe it was the way WingedDog phrased it. Or maybe I don't understand what you mean by "second part"? Here's how Sheap put it:

Tip 2: Code of in-game conduct.
1) Don't make any agreements prior to the start of the game.
2) Don't bring alliances or enemies from one game into the next.
3) Don't trade things in one game for things in another game, or use position in one game as leverage to bargain in another one.
...

[WingedDog]

I agree about the first part, about threats, but I'd keep those players on a watch list in other games, but not about the second part. Why not?

Becouse what good are your watchlists in the first place? The situation differs from game to game. If you are able to declare a war on a nation and win it, why shouldn't you do so, no matter if the person controling it hurt you in another game or not? On the other hand, if you are unable to do any harm to your 'personal enemy' in another game I do not see the reason of declaring a war to him.

[vfb]

:mad: Gandalf!

That's the third time (2nd time in this thread) you have recently messed up quotes and either made it seem like I said something someone else said, or someone else said something I said.

Can you please stop breaking the quotes when you are responding to posts.

[WingedDog]

Maybe it was the way WingedDog phrased it. Or maybe I don't understand what you mean by "second part"? Here's how Sheap put it:

Tip 2: Code of in-game conduct.
1) Don't make any agreements prior to the start of the game.
2) Don't bring alliances or enemies from one game into the next.
3) Don't trade things in one game for things in another game, or use position in one game as leverage to bargain in another one.
...

I perfectly agree with everything Sheap said, and think he's post rally needs to be sticked.

[Executor]

I'm saying, if you've made good friend and allies in one game, it's more likely you'll befriend them in another also. Therefor there will be better diplomacy. You can say whatever you like, but that's how it works, at least from my experience.
I'm not saying you'll be in league with them from the start, but less likely to attack each others. But if it does happen, hey what the hell, it's only a game.
I sometimes make deals with some players, the first one to go down gives everything he has to the other.

EDIT: WingedDog, if someone screwed me over several times, you bet your ars I'll keep an eye on him. That doesn't mean I'll attack him in all other games of course. If that were the cast I'd never win a game. It means just what it says, I'll keep a watch on him, and prepare myself.

[vfb]

I'm saying, if you've made good friend and allies in one game, it's more likely you'll befriend them in another also. Therefor there will be better diplomacy. You can say whatever you like, but that's how it works, at least from my experience.

Yeah, I admit that I remember how people played in previous games, and it'll have some influence on my actions towards them. Unless the previous game was a explicit "anything goes and your actions or betrayals do not count towards future games" game: in this case, even if horrible betrayed and backstabbed I would not expect the same in a normal game.


I'm not saying you'll be in league with them from the start, but less likely to attack each others. But if it does happen, hey what the hell, it's only a game.

Or more likely, depending on the situation. :)


I sometimes make deals with some players, the first one to go down gives everything he has to the other.

I only think this is okay as an agreement between nations that have become allied during the course of the game. Not okay if it's an agreement prior to the game starting.



EDIT: WingedDog, if someone screwed me over several times, you bet your ars I'll keep an eye on him. That doesn't mean I'll attack him in all other games of course. If that were the cast I'd never win a game. It means just what it says, I'll keep a watch on him, and prepare myself.

This is completely reasonable.

[vfb]

Thanks for fixing the quotes Gandalf! Sorry for the angry-face icon. :)

[thejeff]

I suppose due to the wording, there is the slight chance that a stealthy pretender could survive beyond this exact point, as long as they were physically alive - but other than the Lord of Night (sic?), are there any others?
I was using Lord of the Wild which is one of my favorites.
Ghost King, Vampire Queen, Master Druid are all standard to all nations I think.

I just ran a quick test game with Helheim, taking no provinces and letting the AI take my capital, while sneaking all my commanders and troops off into his lands.

As soon as I lost the capital, it was game over.

As far as I can tell, you need to hold one province at all times.

[Sombre]

Yeah I figured Gandalf was wrong. He must have had a province somewhere.

[Juffos]

I like to go away with a boom. That means utterdark, burden of time, foul of air, armageddon, astral corruption and such nicey things that stir the game up a bit. The death throes of a dying god.

[Wokeye]

I'll tend to fight on while trying new things plus helping any allies as much as possible.

I think MP Dom3 teaches you how to lose - well, at least they've taught me how to. :) Reminds me of the Dwarf Fortress 'Losing is fun' motto.

[Zeldor]

I totally agree with doncorazon. I have no problem with losing wars, but enemy should prove that he deserves it. I prefer VP games, with VPs at caps, and taking caps can be really really tough job [I still remember that battle in Alexandria :)], especially with nice spells researched. Recently I got a sub position for a nation and got into 1:3 war, situation was very good, pretty much lose and go AI after few turns, but as I didn't want to give any free lands I decided to try and fight. After over 10 turns one enemy signed peace and remaining 2 cannot make decisive blows.

[lch]

There's the excellent Sheap's rules post, but it never got stickied:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=32050
It always was in the Strategy Index sticky, though.

[lch]

As soon as I lost the capital, it was game over.

As far as I can tell, you need to hold one province at all times.
You lose the game if you have no dominion left. If you lost all your provinces and forts, then you are being killed and all the dominion that you had in provinces (black candles in the provinces for your enemies) vanish on the next turn, after the message that your god's reign is over. It might be, but very unlikely, that having something like a stealthy pretender which generates Dominion right after the Dominion was removed might survive that he lost everything. But it probably was something else like still having a fort under siege somewhere, which means that you'll have zero provinces under your control, but you're not dead yet.

[cleveland]

I still remember that battle in Alexandria :)

That battle is forever burned into my memory.

Your golem was the first real SC I'd ever encountered. :)

...it always bothers me how turtlers or dogpilers have an edge over those who fight a fair one on one war.

Agreed! I make it a point to get into as many wars as possible as soon as possible. Much more satisfying to stomp foes as the pile-ee than as a pile-er!

DC, I never asked: how did the Storming of Eriu go in Kingmaker? I remember taking great cares to script as many fireworks as possible in celebration of the Giants' arrival...:D

[Gandalf Parker]

XXXX, the god of XXXX has been permanently vanquished, at the end he did not rule a single province, and he now has nowhere to return.

You are right.
Serves me right for not keeping my tactics list up to date.

* Dominion sometimes spread in incorrect ways, fixed.
Thanks again Johan. :)

I just did a test game and Im not even sure how the game ended. I had hidden preachers all over the place with many of my candles showing, still had my god and my castle. But the game suddenly declared a winner. Seems like it might be over-corrected but I will need to try it more times first.

[lch]

* Dominion sometimes spread in incorrect ways, fixed.
Thanks again Johan. :)
That wasn't what you described, though. It was the "scales bug", which was encountered when a province had too many neighbor connections, IIRC.

[Gandalf Parker]

He says he did fix it. He did make a comment at the time of the game about "the never ending game". My large "mercenary" army available to other players was not right in his view.

Too bad. In that game I had arranged with an ally to get a corner province and make a return. But I do see the point about a never ending game. Especially with so many stealth units in the game now.

[MaxWilson]

When I'm not dead yet, I like to find an unguarded province and move my pretender there. Then he whips out a copy of Dominions3 and starts playing to escape from the brutal reality of it all *sniffle*. Then his pretend pretender does the same thing (only at a speeded-up time rate, 1 month : 10 minutes) until the universe throws a stack exception.

-Max

[Gandalf Parker]

When I'm not dead yet, I like to find an unguarded province and move my pretender there. Then he whips out a copy of Dominions3 and starts playing to escape from the brutal reality of it all *sniffle*. Then his pretend pretender does the same thing (only at a speeded-up time rate, 1 month : 10 minutes) until the universe throws a stack exception.

-Max
:lol: that is one of the more creative ones.
CORE IT! CORE THEM ALL!