Awe Question

[LumenPlacidum]

Hi. I recently picked up the game, and I have to say that this is very addictive. I haven't even tried to break into the multiplayer stuff yet, but I'm sure it'll consume my time. I have realized that before I can really figure out some of the effective combinations, I really need to know how some things work. Specifically, I don't understand Awe. Or rather, if I understand it correctly, then it's really not very useful.

With 10 dominion, it's possible to give a Virtue pretender Awe (+8). The manual said (I think) that the enemy must win a DRN+Morale check vs. my Awe+7 score. If a DRN is 2 6-sided dice (approximately, the average is somewhat higher because of its open-ended nature), then its expected value is somewhere above 7. If the typical unit has a morale of 10, then they have a score of 17 on a typical roll, versus my constant score of 15. That doesn't seem very useful. It only really seems POSSIBLE to fail that because I made it Awe (+8). If it were a lesser version of the ability, there'd be almost no chance of its working.

Am I misinterpreting the mechanics somewhere?

Thanks for your help.

[Vanslime]

The morale check is against 10 + value of awe, which would be 18 in this case.

...so yeah.

...even then, that still feels kind of weak. I must be missing something.

[Dectilon]

Isn't there a random number added to the roll as well? :/

Oh, and by the way: Yeah, Awe +8 IS pretty much immunity to moral-10 attackers :)

[fungalreason]

Yeah you're missing a few things. The check is not against just the awe bonus, but 10 plus the bonus from awe. (Page 56) So basically you take the average morale of 10, compare it against 18. You can go into probablilites for the rolls if you want to, but there's a chart that has it all worked out for you in the manual (Page 5). Just take the difference... -8 for a unit to attack your virtue in this example. You'll see it should only be around a 6% chance or so something will hit it.

Another that's been mentioned here somewhere is that fear works well in combination with awe. Fear essentially lowers morale of units in a certain radius and for a certain amount (based on the fear bonus). That makes it even harder for the units to pass that morale check. This makes even Awe +0 a very good ability for keeping units from attacking.

[thejeff]

I don't have the manual in front of me, but morale + roll vs 10+awe doesn't seem right to me.

If it worked that way Awe 0 would be almost useless without fear. Only morale 7 or less units could ever fail.

Is a roll added to both?

[fungalreason]

I may be wrong, but essentially both sides roll 2d6 (re-rolling sixes and adding them). Then the difference between the two values (morale and 10+awe) is added to the appropriate total.

The math for that is a little beyond me, so I just trust the chart. It seems to match the results I see in game.

[thejeff]

That makes sense to me.

Awe +0 should work about half the time against standard morale 10 troops, which matches my experience.

[LumenPlacidum]

I thought that table was for probabilities of comparing two DRN+adds rolls. In this case, isn't the awe score a static number? If the unit had a morale of 10, then it would be the same as a DRN being at least 8.

It seems to me that the probability of getting at most up to the score of 18 is 23/36, which is about 63%. So, the enemy with morale 10 would have a 37% chance of penetrating Awe (+8).

Of course, if it's actually that they have to beat DRN+10+Awe, then the chance is MUCH smaller, becoming what you said, fungalreason.

edit: well, you all responded while I worked this out... I guess my numbers no longer work.

[JimMorrison]

In nearly all cases in Dominions, unless otherwise specifically stated, a DRN is added to both sides.

It's an opposed roll, and opposed rolls are the wheel on which this game grinds.

So yes, it is Morale+DRN vs Awe+DRN. Awe+0 is decent, but really shines when you have Fear+5 or better (Fear is not an opposed roll, it just has a passive "effect"). Awe+7 with the Virtue (she is +7 at Dom10, +8 or greater requires forged items) is pretty incredible, and is very effective even without the Fear synergy, even against more "elite" units like heavy cavalry who have 12-13 Morale.

[AreaOfEffect]

Listen to Jim.

[LumenPlacidum]

So, having a high-dominion Virtue with a posse of ghosts might actually work? Excellent...

[Agema]

To slightly correct Jim to avoid confusion, It's Mor+DRN v 10+Awe bonus+DRN.

[JimMorrison]

I was just assuming that we had all already established that as the manual states, the base for Awe is 10. So in this case, referring to Awe+DRN means: 10 + (Awe bonus) + DRN.

I think that the interesting part of Virtue (besides starting with high Awe, and having StartDom of 4, for a combatant pretender) is that you could theoretically skimp on the dominion score, and roll those points into boosting her to D5. Having Fear+0 and Awe+4 may in most cases be as effective as Awe+7 without the Fear, and would give you more late game tactical options, though it costs more points (she is SO expensive to add paths to). The point to bear in mind with that, is there is -no- reason to go Dom9 with Virtue, since the difference between Awe+4 and Awe+5 is fairly slight, so you are only comparing your point cost against Dom10, which even starting at 4, nets you a lot of points if you gimp down to Dom6 or something in order to get more magic.

[AreaOfEffect]

Awe 8 results in awe +7. The reason being that the first point of awe goes to giving you the ability. The remaining points add to its effect.

A dominion 10 Virtue actually has Awe 5 + Awe 3. The Awe 5 is natural while the Awe 3 is from the dominion. If you had dominion 8 or less the result would be only Awe 5, which translates to awe +4. If you kept dominion 10 and choose a god without natural awe the final result would be awe +2. A dominion of 9 only offers Awe 1.

This mechanic might make more sense with fear. Fear requires 5 points rather then 1 in order to obtain the ability. Therefore, an item that grants fear +0 actually grants Fear 5. Stack on a horror helm and get fear +0. Add an implimentor axe which normally does the same thing and you'll see your fear jump to fear +5, not fear +1. Each rank of death magic grants Fear 1, which is why you don't actually get the fear ability from death magic alone until you have death 5.

That said, Amon Hotep, an artifact requiring F5 and S5 to make grants Awe 5. The more attainable Armor of Vitrue offers Awe 4. That with a Shield of Glimmering Gold on a Dom 10 Virtue is Awe 5 + Awe 3 + Awe 5 + Awe 4 + Awe 1, which equals Awe 18, which in turn results in awe +17.

[vfb]

And then you just need to meet some undead or berserkers to totally ruin your day. :)

[AreaOfEffect]

Indeed. This is more of an exercise in achieving the highest possible awe. This in no way means that you have created a powerful all-purpose fighting machine. Such a combatant is riddled with weaknesses. It will likely be effective in single player, but I wouldn't dare try this in an MP game.

[archaeolept]

I think I prefer the Lady of Love as an awe chassis over the Virtue. If just because her combat animation is hilarious :)

[vfb]

Just so everyone doesn't need to start a test game to see it, here she is (just a little more bouncy than normal):

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w148/vfb_dominions/ll.gif

[chrispedersen]

And then you just need to meet some undead or berserkers to totally ruin your day. :)


Berserkers ignore awe? I did *not* know that.

[Redeyes]

They never fail morale checks, that's what 99 morale means ;)
If you want it on your thug, berserker's pelt (through nature) & the Flesh Eater axe (through blood) is your goto items, though I imagine the berserker nature buffs in thaumaturgy could work like a charm

I think berserkers stay and fight after round 50/75 too.

[chrispedersen]

They never fail morale checks, that's what 99 morale means ;)
If you want it on your thug, berserker's pelt (through nature) & the Flesh Eater axe (through blood) is your goto items, though I imagine the berserker nature buffs in thaumaturgy could work like a charm

I think berserkers stay and fight after round 50/75 too.

Yeah, that I know. They will fight after the first arbitrary limit. But if they are the attacker, they are removed after the second. Just.. !poof!

[archaeolept]

thanks vfb.

yeah, she flashes herself, and all the soldiers are stunned by the vision of her pudenda :)

[vfb]

And then you just need to meet some undead or berserkers to totally ruin your day. :)


Berserkers ignore awe? I did *not* know that.

If they're berserked, they do, because their morale shoots up to 99. You could try Fear and/or Breath of Winter, plus two shields, and hope that you didn't wound anyone with a useless kick.

But you're still going to die to Morale=30 or Morale=50 units, if all you're counting on is Awe.

[MaxWilson]

Not to mention dying to any old mage with Frozen Heart or Incinerate or Drain Life.

-Max

[Endoperez]

So, having a high-dominion Virtue with a posse of ghosts might actually work? Excellent...

Ghosts have a chill aura around them. It causes fatigue to anyone who isn't cold-resistant, and fatigue is deadly. Make sure your Virtue isn't affected.

[MaxWilson]

It probably *would* work, but Awe is boring compared to Banefield shields (the King of Banefires is my favorite SC). :) It's just a battle full of your guy hitting the enemy over and over again while they refuse to hit back. Contrast that with the fun of everybody aging themselves to deaths in little puffs of blood, or even better, turning into red 999s from Aegis.

;)

-Max

P.S. Plus, they can still hit the ghosts. Although if there's enough ghosts the enemy army will probably run away after a couple of rounds.

[Sombre]

But you're still going to die to Morale=30 or Morale=50 units, if all you're counting on is Awe.

Or getting shot/spelled in the face, or getting an unlucky roll. Awe is good when combined with say, high prot and mr. On its own, not so hot.

[JimMorrison]

But you're still going to die to Morale=30 or Morale=50 units, if all you're counting on is Awe.

Or getting shot/spelled in the face, or getting an unlucky roll. Awe is good when combined with say, high prot and mr. On its own, not so hot.

Well it's great against indies - and in the case of the Virtue (built in flying adds extra options), boosting MR appropriately means that you can use her later to harass mundane forces who are not adequately mage supported, or just to raid on her own. Just don't make the same mistake that I did, and assume that you can reliably take down 10 Abysian PD without FR. :S

Awe is a funny trick though, its overall usefulness wanes somewhat as the game progresses, and more elite/thug/SC/undead forces come into play. But in many cases, a few thugs with a bit of awe at the front of a clash of huge conventional armies, can really bolster your line's durability significantly.

[Tifone]

Lol vfb they removed your image of the nice Lady :D

[Redeyes]

But you're still going to die to Morale=30 or Morale=50 units, if all you're counting on is Awe.

Or getting shot/spelled in the face, or getting an unlucky roll. Awe is good when combined with say, high prot and mr. On its own, not so hot.
Curiosity had me trying the Death 5/Domnions 10 Virtue against independents. What happened?
Air Shield -> Attack Rear, killed by 20 javelins from lion tribe warriors
She can't reliably solo indies before you give her some gear, which makes her less than optimal awake.

[Illuminated One]

Virtue has flying. So you can select the provinces that you attack. Just avoid archer heavy provinces as well as lizards and woodsmen.
Also if you set her to research you should get to const-2 quite fast.
I've used that with a Lady of Springs (much worse for SCing than Virtue) and she did quite well with const-2 gear.

[JimMorrison]

But you're still going to die to Morale=30 or Morale=50 units, if all you're counting on is Awe.

Or getting shot/spelled in the face, or getting an unlucky roll. Awe is good when combined with say, high prot and mr. On its own, not so hot.
Curiosity had me trying the Death 5/Domnions 10 Virtue against independents. What happened?
Air Shield -> Attack Rear, killed by 20 javelins from lion tribe warriors
She can't reliably solo indies before you give her some gear, which makes her less than optimal awake.

She is a bit more fragile than some other awake combatants, but that is really strange. Until I got the hang of using her (you do want to run numerous tests, she plays differently than say a PoD), she would die seemingly randomly until I got the hang of her.

And for reference, I mentioned that the D5 could be fun, but I usually use her as A4/S4 or A2/S4 with Dom10, and find her quite capable, even before being geared.

[JimMorrison]

Lol vfb they removed your image of the nice Lady :D

How ridiculously American.

It's okay to blow people up and invade their homes, but god forbid we see a low res sprite with exposed breasts - so realistic that they lack nipples.

Okay, enough talk of semi-nude sprites, back to killing people!

[Amorphous]

She is a bit more fragile than some other awake combatants, but that is really strange. Until I got the hang of using her (you do want to run numerous tests, she plays differently than say a PoD), she would die seemingly randomly until I got the hang of her.

And for reference, I mentioned that the D5 could be fun, but I usually use her as A4/S4 or A2/S4 with Dom10, and find her quite capable, even before being geared.

Roughly my experience of her effectiveness as well. I tend to just go Dom 10 and A4, which leaves 129 points to spend on scales.

From what I remember of my perusing the readme-file, the Virtue is A1S1 in CBM, though, so I guess that is what you are using.

[OmikronWarrior]

As long as this thread has semi-morphed into a discussion of the Virtue, one of my favorite Pretender choices, I might as well toss out my experience with her.

Pros:

-High Base Dominion (4, same as Immobile pretenders, higher than any other type of pretender I can think of)
-Awe +4 standard, and with high dominion getting bonus awe certainly affordable
-Air Magic (base 2) great on SC and thugs for Arrow Shield, Mirror Image, Mistform, and Cloud Trapeze
-Base Encumbrance of 1, very few units have encumbrance this low giving the Virtue a lot more staying power and makes balancing encumbrance and revig easier
-Flying
-some elemental resistances

Cons:

-Poor starting equipment, lack of armor particularly significant
-Low HP and Protection almost necessitates additional gear or she will die regardless of awe.
-80 points for a new path limits possible diversity.

The end combination is something difficult to use immediately as an SC, yet can become very powerful with some spell research and gear.

[Redeyes]

From what I remember of my perusing the readme-file, the Virtue is A1S1 in CBM, though, so I guess that is what you are using.That's the exact change to her, which really makes her much more useful.
That the prince of death was changed from 125 points from 75 is another thing weighing in her favor.

The Scenario I described up-thread was probably a fluke, but I hope it made a point of her being quite vulnerable.

One CBM build I have toyed with is Earth4/Astral4/Air4, Dom5, Order 3, Sloth 1, Misfortune 2, Magic 1.
Opens some hard to get stuff like Crystal items, Golem Summoning, Elemental Staffs, many globals, besides all the personal power she attains.

Not tested it yet, but I imagine I'll give it a run in a future game ;)

[lch]

Lol vfb they removed your image of the nice Lady :D

How ridiculously American.

It's okay to blow people up and invade their homes, but god forbid we see a low res sprite with exposed breasts - so realistic that they lack nipples.

Okay, enough talk of semi-nude sprites, back to killing people!
I wonder when they're going to find the screenshots of the Nephilim with their groins exposed. Whoops, can't show that in a christian manga! :shock:

[JimMorrison]

Slap a fig leaf on that already! :eek:

[Amorphous]

From what I remember of my perusing the readme-file, the Virtue is A1S1 in CBM, though, so I guess that is what you are using.That's the exact change to her, which really makes her much more useful.
That the prince of death was changed from 125 points from 75 is another thing weighing in her favor.

The Scenario I described up-thread was probably a fluke, but I hope it made a point of her being quite vulnerable.

One CBM build I have toyed with is Earth4/Astral4/Air4, Dom5, Order 3, Sloth 1, Misfortune 2, Magic 1.
Opens some hard to get stuff like Crystal items, Golem Summoning, Elemental Staffs, many globals, besides all the personal power she attains.

Not tested it yet, but I imagine I'll give it a run in a future game ;)

The Virtue is fragile, yes, but with awe +7 most units will just not hit her. That in combination with flying and high dominion makes her a quite solid awake expander. You have to avoid some indies, but most present no problems.

I am a bit unsure about your build as the difference between awe +4 and +7 is huge. It might be hard to expand with her without equipment or alteration 3 researched. Consider having her dormant.

I am also not really convinced that the CBM version is more useful. It is very nice for EA Arcoscephale - that much I admit - but for the most part it just makes her more expensive.
Air 4, for early air-boosters if nothing else, is usually very high on the list of things I want with her - costing 24 points extra in CBM - and if I seriously consider a second path it tends to be either nature or earth. Furthermore, her high awe makes her a quite adequate combatant, but low astral makes her a very easy target, so you are more or less required to invest some points there, too.

[chrispedersen]

Lol vfb they removed your image of the nice Lady :D

How ridiculously American.

It's okay to blow people up and invade their homes, but god forbid we see a low res sprite with exposed breasts - so realistic that they lack nipples.

Okay, enough talk of semi-nude sprites, back to killing people!

Such an image is not allowed virtually all of the muslim world, and routinely disallowed by screeners in china as well.

Every culture has its own preferences and mores. It is rather juvenile and gratuitous to make fun of American sensibilities - lets keep the topic on Dominions.

[Sombre]

Er, this is an American site. I doubt they took it down because their Imam told them to.

[Tifone]

OMG chris, you take everything WAY TOO SERIOUSLY :nana:

[AreaOfEffect]

Personally, I like the virtue in vanilla better as well. Having the option to avoid low astral makes all the difference to me. I'd suggest air and fire, but that would step on the toes of the poor phoenix.