Baalz' guides

[Baalz]

My list of guides is now too long to fit in my signature, so this is a meta guide thread linking to my works. Feel free to comment on my guides in general or request future guides, comments about specific guides should go in their respective threads.


EA Mictlan (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=33753)
MA Atlantis (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=37457)
Eriu (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=37996)
Sauromatia (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=38146)
Marverni (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=38401)
HINNOM (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39615)
LA Atlantis (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39912)
Bandar (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=40568)
MA Ulm (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41701)
Machaka (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41744)
Helheim (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41801)
Niefleheim (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41832)
EA Caelum (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41954)
MA Oceana (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42338)
EA Ulm (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=675896)
EA Arco (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42440)
MA Argatha (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42770)
LA Pangea (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42971)
MA T'ien Ch'i (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43355)
MA Abysia (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43824)
EA Atlantis (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44457)
EA Pangaea (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44829)
Shinuyama (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44979)
LA Marignon (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45715)
LA Pythium (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=46827)

Communions (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=37499)
Zen and the art of thuggin (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41970)
Vampires (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42402)
Blitzing (forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43899)

[Wrana]

An idea I had some days ago - as I re-read your Helheim I suspected that much of its initial details at least will also work for Yomi. What do you say?

[Tifone]

I for one will just say I really love your guides and the way you explain very well orchestrated strategies. :)

And you're very vain asking!! :down::D:up:

[Trumanator]

YOMI!!! or EA Arco! I love both, but I really am not sure what to do w/Yomi besides the predictable Dai-Oni SCs + GG thugs. Arco is more varied, but it still doesn't really have a guide I think.

[Dedas]

Many kisses from Sweden to Baalz! :)

[Tolkien]

Ulm! ULM! My favorite nation of all time.

[lch]

I believe the following nations are without a guide yet:

Early Age

Ermor
Oceania
Tir na n'Og
Ulm
Vanheim

Middle Age

Machaka
Man
Marignon
T'ien Ch'i
Vanheim

Late Age

Agartha
Arcoscephale
Caelum
C'tis
Gath
Mictlan
Pangaea


I'd say that the most interesting would probably be guides for EA Ermor, EA Ulm, Machaka, LA Arco, LA C'tis and LA Pangaea.

[Baalz]

You missed the Machaka guide I already wrote. ;) Linked in the first post.

[Trumanator]

Hmmm, actually I revise my request order to EA Ulm, Yomi, EA Arco.
Ulm because playing a nation of lumberjacks with nothing but maidens is silly
Yomi because Dai-Oni SCs are obvious, and because thats all Yomi can do besides bakemono shortbows + FA
Arco because I like them and 1 of the guides is more for newbs, while the other doesn't really have that much meat on it. No offense Juffos ;)

[rdonj]

Yomi actually got a guide recently. Baalz and kissblade together I think did a pretty respectable job of covering Yomi. Unfortunately a lot of the advice they gave wasn't really applicable to a game I'm playing as yomi right now, just due to the way my opponent is fighting me.

[Wrana]

EA Ulm, of course!
Tir-Na-Nog and Vanheim are at least workable using your famed Eriu guide. ;)
A question on Yomi was just that - I don't like the nation that much, it's just that I noted a similarity and in a quick test it seemed to work somewhat...

[GrudgeBringer]

EA Arco (or all ages) I think it has a lot of potential (not to mention my favorite era all around) just not for someone who knows how to lead in troops graphs and reseach blindly!!!

[Lingchih]

I thought LA Pangaea had a guide written? Well, if not, just PM me and I'll tell you how to play them. I'm not much for writing guides.

[Juffos]

EA Ulm!

[JimMorrison]

That reminds me, I really should get back to my LA C'tis testing, I have the seeds of something wonderful, but they still need water.

[Quitti]

Thanks a lot for all these guides Baalz ;) They're very useful for pointing out things that I usually miss while looking at a nation.

I'd like to hear a bit about your thoughts on EA Vanheim also...

[Trumanator]

Soon, all nations will have a Baalz guide, and we will all be able to bask in their glory, and the world of dominions will finally be safe from n00bishness.

[Endoperez]

And then Baalz will start writing a SECOND guide to every nation. Can you imagine "Hinnom 2.0, the improved version"? :eek:

[Tifone]

[...] and the world of dominions will finally be safe from n00bishness.

Tifone, Champion of the N00bishness, will defend everyone's (and expecially himself's) right to play as a n00b forever!! :D

[Wrana]

EA Vanheim can work somewhat under Eriu guide - or just as a scales-based nation (I used something similar as Helheim and if not for Sauromatia, would probably won)

[Redeyes]

I think your Zen and the art of Thugging (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41970) should be listed in your original post, Baalz.

[Baalz]

Ah, thanks I missed that one.

[Starshine_Monarch]

I'd love to see Gath get the Ballz treatment. I'm currently in love with Blood magic right now after reading your EA Mictlan guide over again and Gath is one of the several blood nations I've not stuck my toe in yet.

[Dragar]

Does anyone else feel that having these awesome guides written by top players like Baalz robs a bit of the joy of discovering how to play a nation oneself?

Of course, no-one forces us to read them, but it is near irresistible to do so. I really like to play a nation differently than I've seen/heard it played, and I'm quickly running out of ideas with the profusion of guides!

Please don't write an MA abysia guide anytime too soon, I don't want my new strategy savaged by a better one ;)

[Lingchih]

No, Baalz' guides and other guides are very valuable to the game. With so many nations, and so many strategies to learn, it is invaluable to have guides like these to help you out.

In fact, I used one of Ballz's guides, his guide to communions, to hold him to a standoff in a recent war between us in an MP game.

[JimMorrison]

I don't think they're really limiting. Yes, as a newer player, you may think, "wow, I can't possibly do better than that", but that will be especially demoralizing if his strategy doesn't work out for you. :p Strategies are ultimately very personal things, and as you get more experienced, you will find that you rarely just emulate a full strategy as you read it here, but you take from it what works well for you, and you add things not mentioned, and you hopefully come up with something that works as well for your style as the posted strategy works for the poster.

Ultimately, much of the game comes down to improvisation and creativity within the moment anyways. The faster you learn more tricks, and more techniques, the better you will do in any particular game that you join.

[lch]

EA Ulm and Machaka down from my list on page 1, now I am eagerly awaiting EA Ermor, LA Arco, LA C'tis and LA Pangaea. :D

[Edi]

One thing I've always wondered about the guides:

What are the game settings they supposedly work on? Because they seem to assume independent strength 5, normal or easy research and a LOT of available gems. Having a standardized base setting defined for Baalz guides would be very useful for comparisons.

I've run the numbers on a few games I've played and in most of them, getting things done per these guides would not have been an option. Indies at 7, magic sites at 25-30 percent and hard research throws many, many things out the window or reorders probabilities and priorities to such a degree that only parts of the suggested strategies would work. Note that I mostly play SP or cooperative hotseat games, not standard MP.

For example, in a current game, my friend controls an entire corner of the map and soon around one quarter of the whole map. He has done all searches save fire and blood and he has a whopping 2 nature sites, one of which is Gateward Valley (no gems). He has had similar luck with death sites. No more than two or three and total income of both gem types is around 2-3 per turn.

Granted that that's unusual, but there you go. Makes for a whole different game and you need to throw a lot of things out the window and be really miserly with what you do.

[Baalz]

Sorry, my guides are all based on default settings, where noted (all the recent ones) using CBM. I'd also like to reiterate that I'd be a bit surprised and disappointed if people took what I wrote and tried to just apply it verbatim with no discovery of their own. People are always asking if its CBM or not, what the settings are, and pointing out that there's not enough points for the very specific thing I just laid out (because of a typo or an oversight on my part which doesn't really impact the idea). Thing is, each game (particularly MP!) is going to vary so much that a formulaic approach certainly won't work. I don't in any way attempt to give an exhaustive analysis of a nation and all the different ways it could be played with all the different settings in all the different scenarios you'll find yourself in. Obviously playing under hard research is going to impact some of the suggestions I make, sometimes it's just the luck of the draw and despite your best efforts you can't find the gems you need for what I suggest and instead have a pile of some other gem you'll have to decide how best to use. Sometimes, trying the same strategy you're going to blast through indies and pile up gold, sometimes you're going to be surrounded by heavy cavalry and dark vines and have a stunted growth, sometimes your capital is in high resource mountains, playing with indies at 9 will change stuff as well. Despite the fact that I often write from a perspective of "you'll do this then that" by necessity it's intended to really be suggesting fairly general patterns which are useful in different situations while illustrating some common situations through the usual span of a game. As is obvious from the response there are often dramatic different and effective angles on nations which didn't occur to me. Think of it, kind of like observing one specific game played by me with a running commentary of what thoughts were going through my head as I made my decisions - even I wouldn't be able to exactly duplicate that in another game.

[Edi]

Thanks for the prompt reply. :)

I didn't mean to suggest that your guides are The One & Only, Infallible Way of Doing Things. I have always treated them as suggestions (very good ones), but the writing style may sometimes give a little bit stronger impression of something than may be warranted by the specific circumstances.

The question about the default settings was just something that I figured suited this thread best of all, because all the guides are linked from here. And now everything can be compared to what the actual settings are on any given game. Such as the example of my own defaults, with indies 7 and magic sites reduced 1 or 2 steps from default most of the time.

Thanks again for all the effort you've put into the guides.

[DonCorazon]

Note: this post applies to guides in general.

I like guides mostly for specific synergistic tactics that can often be applied to any nations. Sometimes they just remind me of things I know but forgot, like using Transformation on high cost mages - I saw Cleveland do that it in a game about a year ago, but forgot about it in a game I am playing.

It would be foolish to treat the guides as a how-to manual – I mean, if they really were prescriptions to victory, those authors would have numerous victories playing the nations they wrote about. The MP graveyard is full of players who tried to follow guides rotely. In fact, tactics and strategy often are trumped by luck and diplomacy and what works in some games vs. some opponents won’t work in others. Guides are useful as a base to expand on and a primer on units/spells/combos.

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to write a guide or throw out ideas. I know what you mean though Dragar that sometimes its nice to experience the adventure of unexplored wilderness. Just have faith that these guides are not complete explorations but tattered maps with lines like “Here there be Dragons”

[Jazzepi]

I really like guides, personally.

I just find them exceptionally useful when I look at a nation, and I can't think of anything useful to do with them. Often times one of the more experienced players can tease some nuggets of gold from even the worst nations.

Jazzepi

[JimMorrison]

Sorry, my guides are all based on default settings, where noted (all the recent ones) using CBM.

I'd be surprised if anyone would write guides for anything but Default settings, without explicitly stating such. Independent settings especially really tamper with the precision often layed out for your first year of expansion - even bumping to 6 can have a profound impact on what you can or cannot do efficiently - and pushing it higher can totally marginalize some tactics altogether. I think that most guides are written from an MP perspective, where time and efficiency are critical, and settings do not vary wildly except in the more exotic setups - extrapolating them to SP means that you have to adjust to your own world, but gives you more flexibility, as you are under less of an "X provinces by turn Y or lose" sort of pressure.


People are always asking if its CBM or not, what the settings are,

Well CBM can dramatically change things. For example, in my Fomoria guide, my Lady of Springs went from 2W/1N for 125 points, to 1W/1N for 0 points. It's a large change that yields up additional options. I think most strats depend less on the vanilla/CBM distinction once in game, but pretender builds will vary greatly between the two environments.

[Dragar]

Oh I never take a guide as a prescriptive method of how to play, and I certainly appreciate all the work that goes into the guides, of which I have read most and borrowed heavily from. It was just a comment that sometimes when I read a guide and someone has gone through a large number of strengths, niches, options etc for a nation I feel that there is less for me to discover. I pretty much select nations now on those with the least information published :)

[Agema]

The guides are all very valuable, especially from someone as expert as Baalz. If for no other reason, you can see tactical ideas that can be applied generally by many nations, and they're generally well optimised and brimming with ideas.

There's one very important thing to be careful of with guides, however: everyone can read them. That means not only have you seen tactics that can work for you, but your opponent probably has (and certainly should have). For nations that are highly versatile, say able to switch from thugging to powerful armies or with a wide range of good magical paths available, this isn't such a big deal. However, for more one-trick pony nations, you really need to plan something useful outside the guide. Otherwise you'll head off to battle with your opponent knowing almost exactly what's coming his way, and that's a recipe for defeat.

[Trumanator]

Awesome, my list has been pretty much annihilated. I guess now I'd like to see Tir, EA Ermor, and LA C'tis, though not in any particular order. Keep it up!

[Tolkien]

How about MA TC? There isn't a guide for that (that I know of).

[Trumanator]

True. It seems like TC is pretty similar in just about all ages though... I dunno.

[JimMorrison]

There are gross similarities, but very significant differences, as well. All of their mages are actually quite distinctively different, per age, except the constant of the Master of the Way.

Warrior of the Five Elements is a great special purpose cap only Bless troop, but Ancestor Vessels have altogether different usages, and the MA Sacred cav may well not be worth investing in a Bless for at all.

Not as different as say the 3 ages of C'tis, but I absolutely love EA TC, and I can't play either of the other ages the same way.

[Tolkien]

Let's not forget Conscription. An inexpensive way to amass PD.

But yes, they don't really carry on at all. There are some basic strategies that do remain the same, but for the most part, they each need different strategies.

[Trumanator]

My bad then. I've never thought conscription was that good, but then again, the AI doesn't use scouts to take undefended provinces.

[Tolkien]

Conscription has it's uses. It's minor, but it does. They also don't use Call of the Winds or any of that very often either. :p

[lch]

My bad then. I've never thought conscription was that good, but then again, the AI doesn't use scouts to take undefended provinces.
Conscription doesn't help in that at all, anyway. Conscription only gets to work in provinces where you have a minimum of 1 PD, AFAIK, which will already be enough to thwart scout takeovers.

[JimMorrison]

My bad then. I've never thought conscription was that good, but then again, the AI doesn't use scouts to take undefended provinces.
Conscription doesn't help in that at all, anyway. Conscription only gets to work in provinces where you have a minimum of 1 PD, AFAIK, which will already be enough to thwart scout takeovers.

Not true. I and others have noted that a freshly conquered province in friendly Dominion will often have 1 PD before you have the chance to assign any. Not that the savings of 1g is anything to brag about, but it does work, so in many cases in MP you could afford to never touch the PD screen until you are invading foreign Dominion.

[lch]

Then that might be a bug that 0% of something is still being rounded to 1 in Dom3, while the intention was that a mimimum of 1 PD has to be available. I'd appreciate it more if you could go from zero PD to other PD values, though.

[Agema]

I'm working on a MA Man guide. But considering MA Man, the provisional subtitle is at its most optimistic going to be "Making the best of a bad deal".

[Fate]

Conscription seems very good to me. When I play I like to put 5 PD into a province. With conscription (if you can keep hold of that province for 2 or so years) that can mature into 20+ PD.

[Dragar]

Why do you put 5 pd in? Seems like a number that costs more than 1 but isn't really any more useful for the most part..

I think conscription is nice, but fairly weak. Nothing to base a choice or strat around

[vfb]

Probably because it's cheap, I'm guessing, and it gets you to a useful level of PD faster.

Also 5 to 10 PD can beat ghouls/birds/wolves, but 1PD won't cut it.

[Agema]

As VFB said.

1PD can be taken out with no real effort at all. Black Servants, tough scouts (eg. the Jotun ones) or assassins could take a 1PD province with no special equipment. 5 PD costs just 15 gold, and means your opponent has to put at least a bit of gems or gold effort in.

[Fate]

Plus, I like round numbers :)

[lch]

Update the first post, plox!

[SlipperyJim]

Since this very thread includes a request for a MA TC guide, and you have now written such a guide, it might be helpful to update the first post with a link to the guide.

In other words ... Plz lnk MA TC guide, kthx! ;)

[Trumanator]

Still looking for Tir, LA C'tis, and EA Ermor. Don't mind me though, I'm just insatiably hungry for Baalz guide :)

[Sombre]

Insatiable ballz hunger is a serious illness, please don't mock it.

[Tolkien]

I'd honestly like Baalz's perspective on LA Ulm next. :)

[Jazzepi]

Insatiable ballz hunger is a serious illness, please don't mock it.

I can't stop stuffing my face with Ballz.

:V

Jazzepi

[Trumanator]

Insatiable ballz hunger is a serious illness, please don't mock it.

I can't stop stuffing my face with Ballz.

:V

Jazzepi

If only there was a thumb down button... :D

[Tolkien]

http://kara.allthingsd.com/files/2008/05/thumbs-down.jpg

Does that work?:p

[Agema]

Insatiable ballz hunger is a serious illness, please don't mock it.

I can't stop stuffing my face with Ballz.

:V

Jazzepi

If only there was a thumb down button... :D

If only. :down:
:D

[Stavis_L]

A bump, and a request for a guide on Bogarus. Been playing around with them a bit, and I'd be interested to see what synergies the great Baalz mind can pull out. ;)

[Choralone]

I humbly request a future guide on MA Marignon.

[Trumanator]

Jomon would be nice. Fits the MO quite well too.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Since your nation guides for blood nations tend to be the funniest to read (I don't know why - it is probably genetic or you just happen to be a very, very, strange person), here's a suggestion that you add Lanka to your list depite the existence of several guides dealing with the basics.

[13lackGu4rd]

seeing how much you love the more complex nations(Sauromatia, Arco, etc) and seeing your MA Tien Chi guide, I wonder if an EA guide for them will be similar enough to not require too much time or fundamentally different. same question goes for EA Abysia, seeing your nice MA Abysia guide.

2 other nations(not super nations) that I wonder what you will be able to make of are C'tis and Yomi, both EA.

[Trumanator]

EA Aby isn't that complex. You kick *** for the first ~20 turns, then realize that your magic paths suck.

[13lackGu4rd]

EA Aby isn't that complex. You kick *** for the first ~20 turns, then realize that your magic paths suck.

yes, that's a very helpful answer... :sick:

now, Baalz mentioned plenty of nice things to do with MA Abysia, my question was very simple: is EA Abysia very different from MA Abysia or not. same question went for Tien Chi.

[Trumanator]

EA Aby is arguably extremely different from MA. Your Warlocks are much better, your sacreds much worse, and you don't have recruitable thugs anymore. EA TC is pretty similar to MA, with the addition of excellent sacreds and slightly different mages.

[thejeff]

Just to be clear, because I read it wrong the first time:
MA Warlocks are much better, MA sacreds much worse, and MA doesn't have recruitable thugs.

[Trumanator]

yes

[Baalz]

5 minute guide
EA Aby: Easy to kick butt early for a strong start. Focus on warlocks out of your cap with only an occasional Anointed as the warlocks get you diversity and the anointed keep piling more eggs into the same basket. B2 warlocks can blood hunt fine with no rod. Skip construction at first – fireball is a great early spell, not hard to press a tough rush while your opponent can’t deal with the fire/heat. Need to take a rainbow pretender, which will get you a diverse gem income, and the mages to use them. After some quick evo hit the blood research so you shouldn’t have much problem nabbing most of then ice devils and arch devils, then vamp lords. This will give you fairly strong W, S & D mages to use the income your pretender primed. With any luck you can also snag father illearth adding a good E mage. Try to resist using the unique guys as SCs, you need them in the lab. By the time you usually have to start worrying about guys with strong counters to your fire evo and infantry you should be able to have some vamps & demons. Vamps work well with a blood sac dom push, a couple guys casting ritual of the 5 gates (blood empowers are easy enough once you’ve got 15+ warlocks blood hunting) will give you cold and lightning artillery. Leverage those vamp lords to make sure you’ve got a good D income and the nice death summons. Death & blood should be very strong by late game with at least S1 warlocks so you’ve got no excuse to complain that people are countering your fire. Use your rainbow pretender to forge crystal matrixes to stick on whatever indies are useful, with warlock/vamp lord slaves. The trick is to always be working to diversify and come up with different stuff to use than exactly what your opponent expects Aby to do, but the nice thing is brute force should carry you far enough to have some other options. Look for good indies to plop up castles on, people don't really expect Aby to bring heavy cav or archers to the party. Particularly nice is stealthy stuff like atavi archers to completely catch your opponent with his pants down (and come on...do I even have to mention flaming arrows?)

EA TC I’m actually planning on writing more of a real guide for when I get around to it.

[Benjamin]

Actually, just prepare to lose because you are worse in nearly every way compared to MA aby, and MA aby isn't exactly a powerhouse in it's era, and most early nations are stronger than middle nations.

I note, for example, that there are no EA aby wins in the HOF. Baalz, none of that was a shot at you, just stating the facts.

If you insist on trying, here's some things I learned over the course of my efforts:

An important thing to emphasize with EA aby is that right out of the gate there are some nations that you do really well against, and some that are a nightmare. So emphasize diplomacy perhaps more than usual. For instance, anyone with a lot of air magic is just going to kill you early game if they try. You could go with a SC to try to combat that, but then you won't have the diversity of the rainbow, which as you point out baalz is basically essential for later in the game.

On the other hand the mictlan player with his blessed jags is really not going to want to deal with you.

On the other hand, anyone with a lot of earth magic is going to make you look like a jerk with destruction spam. He will get that before you get enough blood power to compensate.

So focus on not fighting anyone with much air or earth.

You can handle elephants with rage pretty well, but chariots are a lot tougher.

If you are using archers, be aware that when the enemy routes they will charge ahead and catch on fire if you have a bunch of abyssians in front of them.

Be aware that your research will stink compared to people who aren't blood hunting.

In a pinch the demonbred assassin can lead undead if you give him a banelord rod (name might be a bit off).

One of the ice devils can teleport if you give him a cap.

The demonbred assasin, especially if you forge him 2 fireswords (or whatever they're called, the fire sword trinket) is an excellent indy assassin. He can deal with tough indies that have a lot of cataphracts or elephants or whatever. Use an indy commander to take the province, don't waste the assassins turn. Use that same commander on a back of the placement square retreat setting in order to check how many commanders are left.

[Trumanator]

Actually, Burning ones laugh at chariots. I'm not sure where baalz is coming from with Warlocks getting you all kinds of diversity, since they only have 10% randoms in EA. If you're worried about research, blitz to cons 6, trade for a set of E boots, and start cranking out the lightless lanterns with hammers. If you search with an Anointed or two, its possible to even get some S income from holy sites. Also, Anointeds are pretty good anti-thugs, give them an AP weapon and some luck, then throw down Ironskin and Phoenix Pyre, then attack. If you have no E bless reinvig can be a problem though.

[Benjamin]

Yes but if you go to const 6 you are going to spend a lot of turns with a very, very brittle army.

You may be right about burning ones vs chariots, thinking about it I suspect you are, but that won't save you from lightning evocations and destruction spam, which is really the crux of my criticism.

e: and regarding the anointed, they aren't terrible, but they cost 450 gold! That's like Baal territory, and more than an eagle king. They just aren't really cost effective in my opinion.

Another trick you can use that I forgot earlier is salamander guards against horrors when you hellpower. Couldn't think of a real use for hellpower though.

[Trumanator]

Very true. Thing is, evoc honestly won't really save you from lightning or destruction spam. Burning one thugs can though. Plus with a good LL spam you can gun up to whatever else it is you want.

[Baalz]

I'm not sure where baalz is coming from with Warlocks getting you all kinds of diversity, since they only have 10% randoms in EA.

Sorry, I was being brief. I was referring to the fact that the warlocks get you blood slaves which get you (probably) powerful water, astral & an earth mage via your pretender (arch devils don't hurt either), and (definately) a bunch of powerful D mages. Abyssia sitting mid game with a dozen strong W/S/E/D mages and a diverse gem income along with a few flying demon squads is a hell of a lot more of a threat than Abyssia who has a bunch of blessed and kitted Anointed. Warlocks (via blodhunting leveraging your pretender) get you considerable diversity by the time you have to worry about good counters to your infantry and fire magic.

[Baalz]

Actually, just prepare to lose because you are worse in nearly every way compared to MA aby, and MA aby isn't exactly a powerhouse in it's era, and most early nations are stronger than middle nations.

I don't think that's a valid assessment. While I wouldn't put EA Aby at the top of the list of powerhouses, I wouldn't put them at the bottom either. The problem is they are very seductive in tempting you to play in a way that is powerful short term, but a dead end long term. If you make diversity your primary goal early on though then you have a lot less to worry about when people start bringing iron bane, rain and fire immune thugs to the fights because you're now bringing demons/undead under darkness or masses of flaming arrows or whatever.

And its not like its realistic that you are shut down as soon as alt-4 (destruction) is researched unless your play is very predictable and straightforward. More likely you don't have too much to worry about until that's combined with summon earthpower and even still if you're tossing a bunch of fireballs from outside of destruction's range you've got a considerable high ground advantage while your opponent has to close to *you* and still has a considerable heat aura problem to deal with, along with salamanders and infantry which hits hard regardless of their armor. The problem comes later when they can basically ignore your evocations while pelting you with their own, forcing you to charge *them* into destruction spam - that's when you really need to have your diversity worked out...but you shouldn't have any trouble having it by then if you play with half a brain.

[thejeff]

I'm really not sure Abysia should be counting on getting the blood uniques. You'll have to rush both blood research and blood hunting against nations who can churn out cheap blood hunters much faster than you (Mictlan? Lanka?)

If you do you'll be in good shape. Even if you don't the vampire strategy may be workable.

Meanwhile though you're relying on only troops, blood magic and minimal evocation for any early wars. Anyone who thinks he can cope with fire will be glad to rush you.

[Baalz]

Oh, I think you've got a pretty good chance actually. The other blood nations all have other research that they need early. Mictlan for instance won't start blood hunting until after they hit constr-4, then when they do start blood hunting the first several turns the blood slaves are going into sanuine rods. Lanka probably really wants some alt research early on and probably construction as well. Either of them may very well also go for early site searching spells because they're pretty unlikely to have a rainbow pretender. Aby, on the other hand if configured how I suggest goes up to evo-2 then nothing but blood. Obviously its not a guarantee that you'll snag the uniques, but I think its a very rare situation where you don't get some of them, and I think it'd be more common than you think to get most of them - particularly as those bless nations again have a high chance of having a pretender who is not set up to help with the summoning so have to empower or forge several other boosters. As you mention, your final fallback is the vamp lords - who give you the diversity into death that is really most important anyway.

[Benjamin]

Baalz I'm surprised you think conj3 is necessary, aren't you always pointing out that an e2 can use earth gems in a pinch? Plenty of nations with plenty of earth gems to do that.

Anyhow, You're not going to be able to blood hunt, and research, and use mages for combat, and get a head start on the blood uniques.

Lightning evocs are still a disaster.

Salamanders I didn't find cost effective unless I added body ethereal, and that's out at alt 3 where you don't want to go if you are rushing blood.

You can play a reasonable mid game and even late game if you're allowed to diversify by leveraging blood and your pretender, I just don't think you'll get there, and even if you do you're just a weak blood nation.

I haven't even mentioned the difficulty you have in dealing with (some types of) raiding.

Sorry Baalz but this nation is a dog. Stick with their sexier older sister, ma aby.

[Squirrelloid]

I'd rush Thaum 2-3 over evo for early magic as abysia. Bonds of Fire/Prison of Fire is much better than fireballs, and even works against FR enemies. And you pick up your remote search spell as a bonus.

[Baalz]

Baalz I'm surprised you think conj3 is necessary, aren't you always pointing out that an e2 can use earth gems in a pinch? Plenty of nations with plenty of earth gems to do that.

Anyhow, You're not going to be able to blood hunt, and research, and use mages for combat, and get a head start on the blood uniques.

Lightning evocs are still a disaster.

Salamanders I didn't find cost effective unless I added body ethereal, and that's out at alt 3 where you don't want to go if you are rushing blood.

You can play a reasonable mid game and even late game if you're allowed to diversify by leveraging blood and your pretender, I just don't think you'll get there, and even if you do you're just a weak blood nation.

I haven't even mentioned the difficulty you have in dealing with (some types of) raiding.

Sorry Baalz but this nation is a dog. Stick with their sexier older sister, ma aby.

There's a big, big, big difference between passing out gems to cast a couple critical spells at...say elephants rushing you, and trying to spam a short range spell like destruction at guys mostly content to pelt you with superior artillery from across the battlefield if it comes to it. Trying to close in under a barrage of fireballs and indie archers with your mages to get the range right for destruction while you're burning gems and the Aby player varies how far back his troops, baits the destruction with indie light infantry and generally doesn't just stick a bunch of heavy infantry in the front line as tempting targets doesn't sound anything like domination to me - nor exceptionally hard for Aby to pull off. Toss in just a couple indie cavalry to flank in on the mages trying to get close enough and sounds to me like a very bad day for guys bringing nothing but destruction fueled by gems.

As to getting ahead on the research for the blood uniques...you do realize anyone you're competing with for them needs to put resources towards bloodhunting to? As well as a using some stuff from their castles to lead and bless their sacreds? Its also not like you need to use your mages to clear indies - your infantry is fully capable of doing that just fine at a very economical rate allowing you to castle up relatively quickly. You've got a pretty good head start with a focus on that research few will match and a pretender specifically designed to help with it. Not a guarantee obviously, but it seems like a pretty good shot to me and even if somebody else is focussed that way you're virtually guaranteed to get some of them.

Raiding problems? I think you're looking at the wrong nation man...and lightning is no more of a problem than it is for anybody else who's best units are heavy infantry. Just like with plenty of nations you've just got to play to your strengths and plan from the beginning to mitigate your gaping weaknesses.

[Trumanator]

Lol, perhaps you need to just collect your posts together and edit them into a guide :D

[Benjamin]

Well empirical data from the HOF seems to support me.

But:

Fine, so maybe you spend 200 more rp and get summon earthpower. That's still going to happen before aby hits blood 6.

Rereading your original post, you use the pretender to site search. That means you can't also use it to research.

Have you actually tried using indy archers? What happens is this: enemy routes, archers charge forward and catch on fire. It's not great.

A player using fire immune/mistform/shockwave oreiads or thunderstriking/orb lightning eagle kings would seem to be a real pain to deal with raiding wise. Just as examples.

And even after you make it to a solid blood economy, your only blood cross paths are death on vampires, whatever you have on your pretender, and then a smidgen of astral on the warlocks. I wouldn't base a strategy on counting on getting poseidon.

That's like what I get with mictlan, except worse in every way. And oh by the way enjoy putting up with rain of toads. Want to attack me in retaliation? My beast bats are going to be too tough for you (thinking f9w4b4 bless + bloodlust). You add salamanders, I add slingers.

If the EA aby toolbox is basically its pretender, its cap only blood hunter, its firemages, and its heavy infantry, that's just a lot less than a lot of other nations.

Anyhow baalz you're in some ways a victim of your own success... you've written plenty of other EA guides; the second I read a new guide, I'm imagining facing off against nations you've already written guides for.

[Squirrelloid]

Benjamin:
Having run EA Caelum with mistform/shockwave, let me tell you - EA Abysia is about the last person you want to be raiding. Burning ones, even unblessed burning ones, are going to cut through mistform like it was butter, and won't die easily to shockwave. Even Aby PD is going to hold up reasonably well with high damage infantry. That's just bad news for EKs.

I can't imagine the Oreiad has it any better, in fact I'd imagine it has it worse. And requires more research to get going!

Also, assuming you snagged evo, fire magic is great for popping mistform from range. But if you go with Thau instead like I recommended, you get Bonds of Fire, which totally owns thuggery like you're suggesting. 0 defense + high strength attacks = dead thugs. And your PD mage can cast it on his own!

With great PD and a great early rush counter in fire with low thaum, I wouldn't consider EA Aby especially rushable by anyone. I can't think of a single rush that high damage troops and bonds of fire doesn't stop cold.

[Benjamin]

I agree with you but why would I raid a province that had anything but pd in it? Or, ok shockwave is a no go but what then orb lightning? That I KNOW trashes abyssian pd and burning ones.

[Squirrelloid]

I agree with you but why would I raid a province that had anything but pd in it? Or, ok shockwave is a no go but what then orb lightning? That I KNOW trashes abyssian pd and burning ones.

How early are we talking here? Are we talking Caelum or Arco?

I'm pretty sure either is defendable, especially given you're not going to have good scouting early enough to make defending an interesting guessing game. I mean, we're talking EA. Your odds at an indie scout province in year 1 is like 10%. And your fort time is too valuable for scouts.

[Baalz]

I'm not sure what in the world this has to do with Aby. Just so we're straight, your critique is that unsupported PD can be raided by appropriately outfitted and buffed thugs? And your other critique is that Mictlan can cast rain of toads and has strong units? Don't really think I want to argue with that.

I will say I think that beast bats with a primary fire bless aren't what I'd lay up at night worrying about with EA Aby, though I suspect you picked that as a pretender who would potentially beat you out for the devil lords rather than a bless Mictlan would ever actually take in a game. Mictlan just seldom has top notch research at the beginning of the game -they don't need it and there's too many things they want their mages doing. I also agree with Squirrelloid that Bonds of Fire is definitely the goto spell against plenty of units, though I don't know that I'd take it over fireball just in general because of the range. When you're sporting a long range artillery spell like fireball it means you can often force the enemy to close with you rather than having to run into stuff like destruction.

[Squirrelloid]

Agree with Baalz. F9W4B4, wtf kind of Mictlan bless is that?

[chrispedersen]

EA is absolutely a dog.
Dragar plays it about as well as anyone and even his concludsion is the same.

Salamanders work alright so long as you don't use them against archers.

There are a couple of interesting builds you can make using the blood fountain, in CBM.

For example B8N2-4, Luck 3, Growth 3. Blood hunt in your capitol, and research blood. Horror spam to expand.

Now blood rain will make repels work but....

[Benjamin]

What's wrong with the bless? It's pretty reasonably priced on a moloch. W9 is very expensive. The b4 is nice because it's the difference between 15 13 13 damage on your were jaguars and +2 that.

I didn't pick that bless as a cheap way to win an argument, I'm not arguing in bad faith here. I picked that because it's the bless I'm actually using in a game right now. It's fine.

No one of my critiques was that there are in fact raiders that EA aby should worry about within the first 20 turns. EKs don't need any buffs or equipment to cast thunderstrike.

I didn't at any point say you couldn't get to the unique bloods ahead of mictlan. The timing issue I was highlighting was that you would be going 20ish turns at least with just your nationals and fireball.

Anyhow, I guess I'm done with this argument, you're baalz after all. I still think your nationals are tough to rely on for 20 turns because all the troops are strat 1 except the sallamanders, fireball isn't very efficient on a 140 gp mage, and I think I could handle getting scouts and air mages to raid vulnerable provinces (JUST AS AN EXAMPLE) which would be (AN EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING) hard for you to deal with, even if I just taxed 200 and ran.

And I still think that even if I'm wrong about all that that your pretender + cap only blood hunters just isn't a very impressive toolbox.

[Frozen Lama]

Anyhow, I guess I'm done with this argument, you're baalz after all. I still think your nationals are tough to rely on for 20 turns because all the troops are strat 1 except the sallamanders, fireball isn't very efficient on a 140 gp mage, and I think I could handle getting scouts and air mages to raid vulnerable provinces (JUST AS AN EXAMPLE) which would be (AN EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING) hard for you to deal with, even if I just taxed 200 and ran.

And I still think that even if I'm wrong about all that that your pretender + cap only blood hunters just isn't a very impressive toolbox.

One last thing to get out of the way:

Baalz on that nation!

I'd rather dip my baalz in lava that try to win with EA aby!

I played as EA aby and a lot of the other nations really squeezed my baalz!




I'll get my coat.

If you have a problem with the guides Baalz writes, don't read them. Wether or not you like them, Baalz is a huge asset to the community. That doesn't mean he is always right, but he at least deserves you to not be a jerk to him when he's trying to help.

and massive raiding on turn 20? that'd be pretty damn impressive.

[Squirrelloid]

Why are you taking a Moloch as Mictlan?

Mictlan typically takes an imprisoned pretender solely to be a bless chassis. And F9 is the worst 9 bless you'd actually consider - both W9 and S9 are better for them. (I really don't know why you think an F9 bless would be at all useful against Aby either, since the fire damage is separate from the physical damage, and the fact its AP is useless since Aby troops are immune).

As to raiders - TS is not a raiding strategy - it takes too many mages for it to be effective for raiding, especially within the first 20 turns. Raiding is going to be relying on a thug casting shockwave, and aby is a terrible target relative to just about anyone else. I'd raid Niefl over Aby.

Basically, Aby's national troops and PD are really strong - early game is not the part it needs to worry about. EA Aby's traditional problem is late game - pushing blood is supposed to solve that.

I know, I know, you're done. But your claims are kind of ridiculous. EA Aby has lots of problems, but raiding isn't one of them.

[Benjamin]

Hey I didn't mean to be rude to Baalz. If I owe you an apology Baalz, here it is: sorry, I think you're a tremendous asset to the community, and I think you've written a lot of very useful guides. I myself have benefited from them greatly.

I didn't pick the mictlan bless to fight aby, as I think I pointed out it wasn't contrived. I picked it because it is the bless I am using right now.

Yes s9 is better than f9 bless, but mictlan no longer has the oracle.

edit: and why is everyone so focused on the raiding? That was the least of my criticism, which was mostly about destruction and lightning evocations in the early game, and then not getting much use out of your nationals in the mid and late game.

second edit: I hope it wasn't the puns that were perceived as rude. I have removed them.

[WaltF4]

I'd rush Thaum 2-3 over evo for early magic as abysia. Bonds of Fire/Prison of Fire is much better than fireballs, and even works against FR enemies. And you pick up your remote search spell as a bonus.

I'm not sure Thaum is worth much if you are rushing for blood summons. CBM fire bolas are Const 0. I also don't think the Thaum 2 site searching spells amount to much. You don't have any A, E, or N gems, nor can you cast any of the associated search spells with national mages, excluding a 2.5% E2 chance on an Anointed. Enough Evo for fireball also gets you arcane probing which warlocks can cast.

That said, I think a nation with exclusively capitol only blood mages is asking for trouble leaning heavy on blood. Not that playing EA Aby isn't asking for it regardless. I mean it really feels like the devs forgot to give them useful things. Like increase heat on EA Smouldercone... or N on warlocks to actually be able to cast crossbreeding...

Anyways, what are peoples feeling about production scales on EA Aby?

[Trumanator]

prod scales aren't really a bad thing. At any rate you wouldn't really want to take sloth. I'm not sure whats so crazy good about crossbreeding that warlocks should have N, but another level of S would be great. Or you could make the apprentices noncap, that would make them actually recruitable.

[Frozen Lama]

warlocks casting crossbreeding would be very thematic is the idea i think. the whole demonbred thing.

you need at least neutral so that you can build a few troops early on. though counterable, even unblessed burning ones are a great unit. just don't use them exclusivly

[KissBlade]

I don't really think EA Abys is a blood power. I would generally just go for a fiend spam (level 2 research only!) and probably hit conjuration and evo's as my primary aim's. You pretty much need to start out of the games strong and stay there. Start dropping fire spam as quick as you can. A decent earth bless mixed with death/nature can go a long way. Your aim must be another capital roughly by the end of 2nd year IMO or get very lucky with some yummy gems. The end game looks the same for all nations anyway so you don't need to worry so much about your lack of diversity there. It's the mid-late where you need to start thinking about how to reach the end game of death/astral magic. As a result, you pretty much need a death pretender so you can start cranking out some spectres and lamias (if you also took the advised nature picks)

[Sombre]

I concur with Kissblade. While some nations have seeming strong points which are traps (like living pillars) I don't see Abysia as one of them in terms of evocation and Anointed. It's true that if they remain a one trick pony they will lose in the endgame, but going for blood the way that is suggested here will handicap their early/mid game so much by trying to make them something they aren't that they won't have the foundation for lategame regardless. Aggressive expansion and killing a neighbour or two is the best way for Abysia to ensure it is able to diversify, with the large income required to force that.

[chrispedersen]

Uh huh. And zero wins in the hall of fame.

[Tollund]

There aren't enough games in the hall of fame for it to be a definitive set of data. Abysia is too capital dependent in general, and since fire magic is probably one of the easiest types to counter it's not really as powerful as it seems on first glance.

[Sombre]

Uh huh. And zero wins in the hall of fame.

As Tollund pointed out, the sample size isn't big enough for that to mean anything. Besides which you could have a powerful nation which was generally regarded as weak, or was unpopular, or was popular with only less skilled players which could easily end up with 0 wins even with a larger set of data.

[Tolkien]

I agree with you but why would I raid a province that had anything but pd in it? Or, ok shockwave is a no go but what then orb lightning? That I KNOW trashes abyssian pd and burning ones.
Problem, of course, with Orb Lightining is that it's Range 15 (fairly short), and will deal less damage then shockwave spam. Of course, that 15 range could mean salvation, but I would still go with shockwave over orb lightning, considering it's very likely they'll be able to march up and slaughter your would-be thug quite quickly (and, compared to shockwave, you'll likely deal less damage). If we're talking about magic here, thunderstrike would be much more efficient in decimating Abysian PD, considering it's Evo-4 (instead of Evo-5 like Orb lightning), and has much longer range (which is a godsend), and, overall, will deal more damage then Orb lightning. Course, there is the fatigue problem, but you can't have everything.

In conclusion, I would say that shockwave and thunderstrike would be preferable to orb lightning, with thunderstrike being the key evocation.

[KissBlade]

Thunderstrike decimating PD isn't exactly some incredible unknown counter tactic. In fact, I'd argue having a thunderstriker just doing pure raids is highly inefficient since a majority of raids are done to "bait" an army into fighting your mage force while theirs are caught. On top of that, not every nation has access to thunderstrike and having a recruitable everywhere sacred mages who can cast falling fires is pretty damn good too. (at the stage of game most people seem to be discussing)

[Sombre]

I'm taking a very similar build to Baalz' MA Atlantis guide (though not identical) in a game right now, so we'll see how that works out.

[Maerlande]

Cool. Thanks for the intel honorable opponent! My ogres look forward to eating fish.

[Sombre]

-orders troops to stop rolling in teryaki sauce-

Damn.

[rabelais]

Please do guides for LA Pythium and anything that makes Any Oceania playable to endgame.
I can't do anything with them.

And thanks for all your great work. I think Shrapnel and Illwinter should hire you to promote their stuff or debug it, whichever seems germane.