Patch 3.23

[NTJedi]

Well I haven't seen any topic yet... so I created one regarding the new patch 3.23 . Besides all the great new stuff we've been reading from the patch thread I also noticed we have an updated mapedit.pdf and an updated modding.pdf documents!


Kool beans... huge thanks Illwinter! :) Well back to playing Dominions_3:
:fight:

[Endoperez]

Oh, it's public. Nice...

How many of you play with the grass enabled? The #groundcol command can be used to create great desert landscape with reddish values, but the unchanged grass really ruins the image.

Map Editor (in Game Tools) can be used to create custom battlefields. Press Space to hide the menu, press ? to see available commands, object placement mode puts in objects, numpad numbers affect the objects. 7 and 1 scale the objects, and I think you can rotate them from other keys. You can't set the custom battlefields not to use grass.

[lch]

Everybody, grab your old turn files where your SCs were lost in space and time, and watch the void battles! :)

I really like the announced (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42601) "Monthly site searching with spells stopped targeting when no more prime targets were available. Now it will search through less likely locations after the good ones have been searched.", too.

[Quitti]

I really like the announced (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42601) "Monthly site searching with spells stopped targeting when no more prime targets were available. Now it will search through less likely locations after the good ones have been searched.", too.

Indeed. I just hope it will start targeting every province - I always seem to have two or three provinces in my lands that the monthly casting AI simply... ignores.

The item-to-lab hotkey also really makes life easier.

[Endoperez]

I really like the announced (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42601) "Monthly site searching with spells stopped targeting when no more prime targets were available. Now it will search through less likely locations after the good ones have been searched.", too.

Indeed. I just hope it will start targeting every province - I always seem to have two or three provinces in my lands that the monthly casting AI simply... ignores.

The new site-searching is perfect. It doesn't search your capital (I didn't remember to test for enemy capitals), it eventually cycles through all provinces with less than four known sites that hasn't already been searched by a level 4 mage, and it favours unsearched provinces with few magic sites.

[lch]

Some more minor things that aren't in the patch release notes:

Some more items now help to escape from the Inferno and/or Cocytos hells, like Tome of the Lower Planes does.
Some nasty evil blood items just got nastier.
Mandaha and Davana are now named Mandeha and Danava, respectively.
Yama-no-kami (2097) now domsummons wolves and Black Hawks.

[Humakty]

Anyway to know to which factions belong those new units ? (even if some are quite clear)

[lch]

Jomon, exclusively I think.

[Humakty]

Thanks, even if I would have bet the Monk of the Fivefold Path was for Bogarus.

[Endoperez]

Thanks, even if I would have bet the Monk of the Fivefold Path was for Bogarus.

The underwater Jomon units are mostly available from underwater forts, not as summons.

Monks of the Fivefold Path just happen to have a similar name, but the reason is very different. They have five mixed holy/magic spells, and each Monk can only cast one of them, depending on his random.

[Gregstrom]

And some of them are rather nice-looking. The H/A AoE2 Arrow Fend effect is a lovely thing for Jomon to be given. With the other spells being equally fun, I can see quite a few benefits to prophetising a Master Shugenja.

It's also nice to see another nation gain the ability to take on R'lyeh. Shrimp Soldiers and Shark Soldiers are pretty handy against indies, although I can imagine the low MR being an issue.

[VedalkenBear]

Endo: _Thank you_ for telling me about the Holy spells for the Fivefold Monks. At first, I was scratching my head as to their purpose.

So the Ryujin is an underwater recruitable, along with the other two?

Are the Tatsu unique summons, or just somewhat random in their picks?

[Edi]

Making an Onmyo-ji with a nature random a prophet for Jomon results in a scary, scary combat mage.

Reason? The H1N1 holy spell Teaching Sign increases the caster's magic paths by one for the duration of the battle, so a F1S2N1H3 Onmyo-ji casts teaching sign and is suddenly F2S3N2H4 and so forth. The Meditation Sign (HW) halves current fatigue.

Dai Tengu is also scary, because they have a fixed nature pick. Teaching Sign turns them to A4E2N2H3 and then you can crank up reinvigoration with Earthpower and then start spamming Thunderstrike. Pick a bunch of them, give one Staff of Storms and it's Teaching Sign, Storm Power and that's thunderstrikes at A5 and they'll keep going all day...

I'm quite certain that some of these things will make for pretty significant changes to combat effectiveness indeed.

[VedalkenBear]

Sooo... from what I'm hearing, Jomon's battle magic just got kicked up a notch.

Also, I assume that if you have the Onmyoji prophet above, and he leads a reverse communion of Onmyoji, and casts Teaching Sign and Meditation Sign, all of the communicants get +1 to all paths and halve their fatigue?

That sounds fabulous. ;)

[Gregstrom]

There also seem to be new unit names in the patch, which is very nice to see. Although the generation of 'Kemma #addname' feels like a bit of a bug.

[Edi]

Kannushi also got bumped to H2, so now Jomon has a cheap H2 Sermonizer recruitable everywhere and can also better deal with undead. Kannushi can also rarely get Five Elements magic, and those can use the signs.

[reverend]

Very nice! :)

[Sombre]

What does "Increased max number of effects per magic item" mean in terms of gameplay? Was there some magic item not working properly before due to this limit, or is this actually something we can play with?

[Edi]

Not accessible to modders yet, but some items got extra attributes.

[VedalkenBear]

Edi: Wasn't the Kannushi always Holy-2?

[lch]

What does "Increased max number of effects per magic item" mean in terms of gameplay?
Just what it says. The item data is now nicely aligned in memory. :)
Was there some magic item not working properly before due to this limit, or is this actually something we can play with?
No, not really. The Gift of Kurgi gained a new effect that now would have used up the maximum amount of effects an item may have, but it didn't go over the limit yet, nor did any other item do that. All items gained two more possible effects.

[chrispedersen]

I'm not a code diver so I'm going from what I think I remember - but I thought items were limited to four effects in code. This increases it to six.

I .. suspect... that GoK added an ability to escape inferno or what have you .. but .. who knows.

[lch]

No, they were limited to eight effects before, now there's room for ten. And items can add flags on top of effects, plus item spells, so you may count this differently.

The Gift of Kurgi didn't gain the effect to escape from one of the hells, it just gained an effect that I expect to be something nasty, I didn't look it up yet. Other items that gained the same effect are Lightless Lantern and The Forbidden Light; and Nethgul actually reduces it a little.

Items that gained the effect to help escape from the hells now are Demon Whip, Sword of Justice, Brazen Vessel, Lifelong Protection and The Ark.

[Psycho]

Can you tell us more about these new effects that some items got?

[Gregstrom]

For the set listed, I'd guess it had to do with Horrors or the Void somehow.

[Darkwind]

I guess I'm a bit late, but OOH GOODY SPACE PROVINCES CAN LOOK LIKE SPACE! :up:

Now all we need to do is get rdonj to get back to slaving away on that map of his. :p

[Poopsi]

Stupid question here: will old savegames use the updated data?

[llamabeast]

Yep! The process is pretty slick really.

[ryo_akashi]

Mighty yari used by the Kaijin is currently a ranged weopon. Should be a melee weopon instead?

[archaeolept]

well, a yari is pretty long...

;p

thanks for another patch guys!

[Illuminated One]

Making an Onmyo-ji with a nature random a prophet for Jomon results in a scary, scary combat mage.

Reason? The H1N1 holy spell Teaching Sign increases the caster's magic paths by one for the duration of the battle, so a F1S2N1H3 Onmyo-ji casts teaching sign and is suddenly F2S3N2H4 and so forth. The Meditation Sign (HW) halves current fatigue.


Do those work in a reverse communion, too...?
Communion Master - Teaching Sign - Power of the Spheres - Meditation Sign Meditation Sign

edit: Should read the whole thread before answering...

[rdonj]

I guess I'm a bit late, but OOH GOODY SPACE PROVINCES CAN LOOK LIKE SPACE! :up:

Now all we need to do is get rdonj to get back to slaving away on that map of his. :p

Ah, but you still have to come up with skyboxes for me to use first. Kekekekeke!

[lch]

Mighty yari used by the Kaijin is currently a ranged weopon. Should be a melee weopon instead?
What, the Kaijin is in the game? I thought that he was just a draft because he isn't in the patch announcement. In that case I have a bug report to make: He doesn't grow less powerful in his magics when leaving the water, like advertised in his description text.

[Festin]

Ok, what we need now is a good Jomon guide by Baalz or AreaOfEffect :) Because honestly I don't feel that Jomon got any singificant power-up with this patch. Maybe I'm just missing something, so the guide would be most useful.

[chrispedersen]

What..??? This looks huge!

[Gregstrom]

Well, the basic units aren't powered up. The new national holy spells and the u/w units and commanders are cool though. For instance, Ryujin are great for forging certain items you'll find rather handy. Their battle magic can be impressive, too.

I reckon it'll put Jomon pretty near par with the rest of LA, used properly.

[archaeolept]

oh, i love the new jomon stuff. A++++ would play again :)

edit: how does one get Shikome? there seems to be no spell for them... are they some unit's autosummon?

++edit: ah, ok, yomi summons

[ryo_akashi]

Shikome exists as a EA Yomi summon spell.

[vfb]

So, what's the Lightless Lantern additional effect?

I'm scared. :shock:

[Executor]

So, what's the Lightless Lantern additional effect?

I'm scared. :shock:

WHAT? Please don't change it! I like it the way it is very much, unless it's a positive effect? :)

[Meglobob]

Can you tell us the lightless lantern effect, anyone, please?

If its a bad effect, then I am a little concerned about my 100's of mages in many MP games who are currently holding lightless lanterns. If a increased chance of a horror poping up or something. Wasn't the horror marking it does now and the fact they were reseach 6 enough of a drawback/negative on them?

[Dragar]

Yeah I'm afraid, I've got a bunch of games as abysia right now and lanterns are pretty central to giving them any kind of decent research.. I'm in for a world of hurt if all my lantern holders start copping some serious pain

[Poopsi]

I somehow suspect that it's the other way around, and they will help you get out of hell. But this is just guessing (It seems sort of thematic)

[lch]

Make a test game with a hundred Lightless Lanterns in it, if that doesn't make you find out the effect I'll take a look. :P The value for it on the Lantern is 10, which I'd expect to be a percentage value for something that may happen during hosting, so it should be quite easy to make out. Lightless Lanterns already had a 3% chance to horror mark.

[Meglobob]

I somehow suspect that it's the other way around, and they will help you get out of hell. But this is just guessing (It seems sort of thematic)

The light of a lightless lantern is supposed to attract horrors to the user. Perhaps users occassionally become lost in space and time. It would allow many people, in many games to see lost in time and space battles.:) Another new patch feature, apparently.

Just a guess, but it would be evil, very evil...

[lch]

BTW, something that isn't on the changelog, the wolf and werewolf forms of Jotun Skratti and Jotun Skinshifters now cost the same gold as their original forms. I don't really understand the change on Jotun Skinshifters (was there some exploit that managed to keep them in their secondshapes?) but no more upkeep free Skratti research for you exploit users, I'm afraid.

[lch]

I somehow suspect that it's the other way around, and they will help you get out of hell. But this is just guessing (It seems sort of thematic)

The light of a lightless lantern is supposed to attract horrors to the user. Perhaps users occassionally become lost in space and time. It would allow many people, in many games to see lost in time and space battles.:) Another new patch feature, apparently.

Just a guess, but it would be evil, very evil...

Actually, Poopsi might be right. There already were effects to escape from Inferno and Kokytos, so it isn't that, but there wasn't an equivalent for the Void yet. Lightless Lanterns would make sense to help escape from the Void, maybe. It probably isn't an effect to get lost in time and space, as there's already an effect for that. Funny that Nethgul would try to keep you locked in, too. :)

Disclaimer: This is all still speculation!

[vfb]

I just ran a test with 500 lanterns, over 50 turns, and did not notice anything happen other than an average 4 lesser horror attacks per month. None of the units were stuck in the void, though.

[lch]

Thanks, vfb. The horror attacks prolly just stem from the 3% horror marking chance. Since the only other changes to items that have been done are increased chances to escape from Inferno or Kokytos with them, and since the void/hell battles are finally being visible now, I'm pretty convinced that this new effect was added to help escape from the Void.

[vfb]

Cool, I've got a couple mages in Preponderance messing around in some Strange Houses. I'll throw a lantern on each, since they are so cheap, but it'll probably be very difficult to actually notice if they are coming back faster after getting lost in time and space.

The horror attacks from the lanterns are totally par for the course, as you say. Nothing's new there.

[Poopsi]

what kind of things can make you lost in the void? besides R'lyeh's void gate and dividing by 0, I mean

[vfb]

Wearing some items, especially Boots of the Planes.

There are other void gates too, like Strange House in the Mist.

How about getting hit by the Dimensional Rod? What does "Dimensional Shift" do?

[Jazzepi]

Wearing some items, especially Boots of the Planes.

There are other void gates too, like Strange House in the Mist.

How about getting hit by the Dimensional Rod? What does "Dimensional Shift" do?

It turns your troops into one dimensional lines.

Jazzepi

[P3D]

I know it's a noob question, but what is the compatibility of the new patch with older savegames? Like do I need to run several copies of Dom3 if my MP games are of different patches (like with Paradox games), or just install new patch and all would go fine?

[Gregstrom]

There is full compatibility with saved games, so you needn't worry there.

In fact, for games on llamaserver you'll have to upgrade to play the next turn.

If you're playing games on other servers, you should have the same version of Dom3 as the host or there will be difficulties. If (and only if, pretty much) one of these servers isn't updating to 3.23, you'll need to keep a separate install of Dom3 to deal with it.

Edit: Is it clearer if I say that turn (.trn) files are more or less compatible but .2h files (the bit you submit to the host) aren't?

[P3D]

Apparently the other way around. 3.21 had CTD when I tried to load the new turn, so .trn is not compatible, with all the new stuff in that. 2h files, however, should be OK unless some old commands are not valid - which I'd doubt.

[FaceLess]

Maybe a slight warning/remark. I am playing a sp game (Acre EA) with the CBM 1.41 mod and after patching to 3.23, I played an additional two turns. In both turns I recieved a host message that I was cheating (too much income). Obviously the AI was very upset about it and maybe in multiplayer mode people might be even worse:)

FaceLess

[lch]

Well, *.trn files are from host to client, *.2h files from client to host. If either gets a file with a more recent version than the one that it has itself, then it will crash to desktop, stating that it received something with a newer version than its own.

[Gregstrom]

I got the same issue as FaceLess. I hadn't thought much of it, but...

[lch]

Wearing some items, especially Boots of the Planes.
The only other item that does this is The Gift of Kurgi. You're twice as likely to get lost in the void with it, but it's still just a minimal chance.

[Jarkko]

I can confirm that there are *lots* of cheating messages in SP games now, and spesifically that it is me who is cheating. Don't know what is causing this.

[Sombre]

Well the simple fact that the save is from an old version, non?

I don't know why people act shocked when a new patch comes out and old stuff (from before the patch release) goes fruity. It's to be expected, same as if you combine mods which weren't made specifically to be used together.

[Edi]

There seems to be a problem with the cheat detection. I've experienced the same thing. I'm at work right now, but could someone please test with a plain vanilla game and see if there are cheat messages when cheat det is turned on?

If it occurs, send the save to IW to the address specified in the shortlist thread. We may be getting a new patch sooner than anyone thought if there's a problem here...

[Edi]

Well the simple fact that the save is from an old version, non?

I don't know why people act shocked when a new patch comes out and old stuff (from before the patch release) goes fruity. It's to be expected, same as if you combine mods which weren't made specifically to be used together.

It doesn't happen every turn, so it is not consistent. There is no rhyme or reason to it. With a co-op MP hotseat game Kaljamaha and I were alternately being accused of cheating every now and then and sometimes there were turns where there was no cheat messages, so it is hardly because a game was created on an older version. Not just because of that anyway. We did have some mods enabled, which is why this should be tested on a new SP game with vanilla.

The problem is that mods can't cause gold creation unless negative gold costs are feasible, and the mods we had did not do that anyway.

[Sombre]

If the problem doesn't come up in a new game made under the current version, then it is an issue with old games (from before the update) being used after the update is applied. What exactly the issue is doesn't even matter, because you already have your solution in this case.

I'd test this but I'm at work.

[Caerun]

I've noticed quite a few "Jomon is cheating" messages in a SP game that I started after the patch, playing as Jomon with no mods enabled (though I do have some installed) on Urraparand map. I haven't noticed any pattern to the notices yet, though that could just be me not paying attention.

But in this case I can with certainty say it's not caused by the save being old since like I said, the game was started after I'd applied the patch. The only reason I started the game was to check out the new Jomon goodies anyway. :)

Dunno if this helps any but thought I'd mention it.

[Edi]

Thank you, that helps. Please send a zip of the savegame folder to IW into the address listed in the bug shortlist thread.

"Savegame confirming cheat detection problem reported by Edi, new vanilla game started after patch, no mods" will be enough of a problem description, as Johan will know what it refers to.

[Jarkko]

I launched a new SP game with no mods in EA, all default settings except renaming allowed. I played Tien Chi, the random computer opponents were Agartha, Pangaea and Oceania. During the 50 turn test I didn't get a single cheat message (and yes, I have cheat detection on :) ).

The cheat messages I got yesterday were in a MA game that I had started under 3.21, with CBM 1.41 enabled. Without thinking further I deleted the install and reinstalled from scratch, should have taken a backup of that first...

[Executor]

One stupid question perhaps, in the games where some players sent their turn in with the old patch and some with the new patch, will it cause any problems, stales, strange reports or anything?

[Zeldor]

Not if the game uses the new version. Problem will be only if server has older version that one of the sent turn files.

[llamabeast]

So with LlamaServer (which has been patched) there's essentially no way of doing it wrong.

[Executor]

Thanks, I don't like to stale out of stupidity...

[Poopsi]

I do get cheat messages in single player. It's a game that started in the old version, though...

[Johan K]

There is a problem with cheat detection and forging new items. When forging a magic item you could get a false cheat message too. There will be a quick fix patch soon that takes care of this and get the mac version up to date as well.

[Endoperez]

There is a problem with cheat detection and forging new items. When forging a magic item you could get a false cheat message too. There will be a quick fix patch soon that takes care of this and get the mac version up to date as well.

Good to know.


Everyone else (except the unfortunate mac-users! a moment's silence, please...)


... Magic Site Mod has been updated, it has few more sites, and all the sites work properly. Barring any errors on my part, of course.

[llamabeast]

3.23 can cause crashes as well as cheating messages. JK's new version fixes that as well, happily.

[lch]

JK's new version fixes that as well, happily.
It's out already?

[llamabeast]

It's in beta, but I think it's ready for release.

[lch]

It's in beta, but I think it's ready for release.
Did you see Wrana's post in the bug thread? I wouldn't rush it.

[Edi]

Not getting any crashes with a vanilla test game of Patala with 3.23b, so that seems to have been taken care of as well.

[VedalkenBear]

Edi: I can say that testing Jomon post-patch, I did get messages about making too much money. In almost all cases, I had a random event the same turn that gave me money. In one case, I had a random event that lost me money.

While discussing it... Jomon is much more interesting now. I may have something of an overview of it by late next week.

Also, would it be too much trouble to have the exact game mechanics of the new Holy spells for Jomon? The description of the spell(s) are quite flavorful, but they make little sense to me.

I understand the Air one, and the Nature one. It would seem the Earth one is targeted at non-normal units (perhaps only Undead/Demon), but the Water one I don't understand. I haven't seen the Fire one yet.

[lch]

I understand the Air one, and the Nature one. It would seem the Earth one is targeted at non-normal units (perhaps only Undead/Demon), but the Water one I don't understand. I haven't seen the Fire one yet.
Water sounds like it makes the caster recover fatigue, fire sounds like a Charm effect.

[Slobby]

:up: Thank you Illwinter, I adore the additions to Jomon. :D

[VedalkenBear]

Ich: Thanks. I must say, the range on the fire spell makes it... um, not ideal.

And wow, Jomon's underwater units are killer. I'm not sure how well they'll do against R'lyeh, but they're certainly as good as what anyone other than R'lyeh can field there. I'm not sure other than luck with mercs how you're expected to get that initial toehold. Kappa?

[archaeolept]

kappas, or any of the items. jomon can't be faulted for having insufficient path options. my first littoral foray playing jomon was with their hvy cav and pills of breathing.

[Rysith]

So, I just installed patch 3.23b and am now getting freezes on turn generation in SP at "AI Thinking", first turn. No mods or anything like that. Any ideas on cause/solution?

[VedalkenBear]

Archae: Yes, they have a few options, but the Kappa are expensive to summon and maintain (in every way). The real issue is that they have no starting Water income. That means that the Pills are really your only option, and particularly with the new patch, the Air gems are extremely valuable (Dai Tengu are incredibly good.)

Although, I guess a good option to blitz the water would be to take an Awake Lady of Fortune. As I recall, she grants waterbreathing to some people in her army.

If you can get into the water early enough, you can dominate by completely losing one of Jomon's crippling long-term problems: upkeep. Considering the Ryujin is your best recruitable mage (by a wide margin) and you can recruit Monks in your surface forts. That would make most of your mages sacred. (You'll want some Onmyoji for Astral magic.)

Also, I'll note that the Arrow Fend Holy spell scales with your Holy level. This means that an Air/Nature Prophet has AoE 4 Arrow Fend for 0 base Fatigue. (Also: Dai Tengu can do this naturally.)

For those that want to Prophetize a Mage, I suggest a Master Shugenja over an Onmyoji, as the Master Shugenja is guaranteed to get the Nature pick required for the personal buff (which allows him to throw Fanaticism).

[Edi]

Master Shugenja has guaranteed nature, but no astral. Onmyo-ji will take a while to get nature, but then he can pathboost twice (sign, then Power of the Spheres, and if he has water, meditation sign), which will be deadly in a reverse communion.

The water sign halves current fatigue.

[Micah]

teaching sign and PotS aren't the same effect? That's surprising.

[Meglobob]

Just like to thank Illwinter for another great patch and the additions to Jomon look great.:)

[Edi]

teaching sign and PotS aren't the same effect? That's surprising.
Hmm, could be the same, but I'm not sure. Teaching sign is caster only, +1 all paths. Power of the Spheres should do the same thing a different way. At least it should be tested, because if you can get +2 all paths with two spells and then perhaps use another booster spell to add to certain ones, it could lead to all kinds of funny business on the battlefield.

[Poopsi]

A comment on site searching spells: They might not autoaim on your capital anymore, but they DO autoaim on enemy capitals.

[lch]

teaching sign and PotS aren't the same effect? That's surprising.
Hmm, could be the same, but I'm not sure. Teaching sign is caster only, +1 all paths.
According to the data, Power of the Spheres and Teaching Sign work exactly the same way, they have the same effect & "damage".

[Edi]

teaching sign and PotS aren't the same effect? That's surprising.
Hmm, could be the same, but I'm not sure. Teaching sign is caster only, +1 all paths.
According to the data, Power of the Spheres and Teaching Sign work exactly the same way, they have the same effect & "damage".
Then the question becomes, since they are different spells, can they be stacked? If not, then the Shugenja is indeed a better prophet than onmyo-ji

[llamabeast]

I doubt they can be stacked if they're the same effect. Mostly that kind of thing doesn't work (e.g. Iron Will and Resist Magic).

[Sombre]

I bet my farm they can't be stacked.

[lch]

Then the question becomes, since they are different spells, can they be stacked?
Spells buffs work by adding flags to the units. Since those two enable the same flag, I'm pretty sure they won't stack, same as "Iron Will" doesn't stack with "Antimagic". The effect would stack with e.g. a Ring of Wizardry, which uses a different mechanic to raise magic levels.

[VedalkenBear]

Mm, sorry to raise such a controversial issue. As I recall, you can't use a Matrix to do a reverse communion? If so, that's an easy way out.

Besides, I was more meaning to use a Master Shugenja to power early expansion. Once you have the need (and capability) to fuel a mass reverse communion, you can always kill off the Shugenja and prophetize an Onmyoji.

[Gregstrom]

Matrix does the same communion effect as the spell, so there's no reason a reverse communion wouldn't work with it.

[archaeolept]

it's not controversial, there's just no reason to think the spell will stack w/ PotS, and reason to think that it wouldn't. As such, there is no reason to wait to prophetize some onmyoji; i'd either recruit a shugenja first turn, or just do the usual and prophetize the starting ninja.

[Zeldor]

Smiting assassins are great.

[Fate]

Verified. My prophet/onmyo-ji cast power of the spheres, then refused to cast the teach sign.

[lch]

Mm, sorry to raise such a controversial issue. As I recall, you can't use a Matrix to do a reverse communion? If so, that's an easy way out.
I don't know what a "reverse communion" is, but crystal/slave matrices trigger the same flags on units like the respective communion or sabbath spells would.

[Jazzepi]

Reverse communions are where you have all the master(s) at the very bottom of the command list. All they do is cast magic path buff spells that the slaves get for free. Sometimes you even cast stuff like astral shield, body ethereal, personal luck, etc, to make the mages good against troops. Good being a relative term.

But, that's the idea. You just abuse the fact that the slaves get the master's self-buffs cast on them for free.

Jazzepi

[Jarkko]

I don't know what a "reverse communion" is

One example of reverse communion I've seen used quite early in a game (needs Evocation 5 and Blood 2 IIRC). Totally destroyed my SC pretender and elites + prophet he had along.

You need access to cheap blood and astral mages. Take four S1 mages and a B1 mage, the B1 mage need to cast his spell after the astral mages (ie to be lowest in the selection screen).

Script the blood mage to Sabbath Master, Hell Power, Reinvigoration x 3. Script the astral mage to Communion Slave, Twist Fate, Astral Geysir x 3.

You'll have each turn a chance a horror spawns. Actually, it seemed to be pretty guaranteed at least one spawned, as there were five hell-power buffed mages present. However, your mages only have 1st level horror mark, while there are *loads* of 2nd level horror marked opponents... And even if the horror would attack your mage, he has twist fate to negate the first attack. All the while Reinvigoration keeps your fatigue at zero for all your mages.

My Pretender survived that battle. But he didn't live long, as he had about umpteenth level horror mark on him (not only from the geysir, but also from the horros attacking him many times :( ), and the doom horror was lurking behind the corner... It was evil.

[Endoperez]

Ouch, nasty trick.

Reverse communion is pretty easy to use. The only thing you have to remember is to keep the master from casting spells before slaves. The master can be last in order, or can retreat, or you can give him a bow and script him for Fire after he's buffed the slaves.
I used it to make a host of my C'tis Shamans receive Power of the Spheres, and I also cast Light of the Northern Star. The Soul Slays didn't do as much as I had hoped, but they were just my researchers.

[Sombre]

Hence the great utility of Slann communion masters who can go dormant in battle, a state in which they can no longer cast spells.

[eastsnow]

Now we can't cast the spell "Connect Yama-no-Kami" in moutain terrain.A bug?

[archaeolept]

eastsnow, are you sure that it is mountain terrain and not "border mountains", which have the mountain graphic but really function more like plains?

[eastsnow]

Archaeolept,you are right.But in this random map all the mountains are border mountains,:(

[archaeolept]

yes, I hate random maps that have no real mountains.

[secretperson]

This is for 3.23b patch- I was just playing LA Jomon in SP and it has repeatedly crashed to desktop between turns when it is generating turn 1 or 2 of one of the battles. I have tried to let it run and changed my orders that turn too to see if this would change the outcome but to no avail. Is there a solution to this problem or is there a known cause? I'm wondering if it's a seduction battle or a void battle but I really have no idea.

Has anyone else encountered this?

Edit: Running on Mac OSX btw

[Edi]

This is for 3.23b patch- I was just playing LA Jomon in SP and it has repeatedly crashed to desktop between turns when it is generating turn 1 or 2 of one of the battles. I have tried to let it run and changed my orders that turn too to see if this would change the outcome but to no avail. Is there a solution to this problem or is there a known cause? I'm wondering if it's a seduction battle or a void battle but I really have no idea.

Has anyone else encountered this?

Edit: Running on Mac OSX btw
There were two or three separate bugs, some of them intertwined. Forging certain items could crash to desktop and the seduction issue was apparently another. I don't know what exactly caused it, but Johan fixed it immediately upon getting game files where it manifested. On testing, the 3.23b worked perfectly, so there shouldn't be any more problems of this sort.

[lch]

On testing, the 3.23b worked perfectly, so there shouldn't be any more problems of this sort.
i.e., if you want help or to help, provide turn files and/or log messages.

[VedalkenBear]

My concern with using a Matrix is that the Matrix 'casts' the spell before combat actually starts, and therefore a Master Matrix (without Slave Matrices) would automatically have to be cast before the Communion Slave spells, and thus a reverse communion wouldn't work at all.

Is this correct, or is my understanding of reverse communioning at fault?

[llamabeast]

I think your understanding is at fault there. In a particular round, the slaves can't take any action if a master has already cast a spell. The matrix only affects the first round (or more likely the zeroth round), and in that round it doesn't make any difference because there are no slaves yet anyway.

[VedalkenBear]

Ah, okay, llama, thanks. As you can tell, the only reverse communions I've done have been by accident. Thank you for this.