Abanoned artillery

[Joe1960]

New to this sim...many thanks to the authors. It's really great! A few quirks but overall a great package.

Question: I have searched the forums and the manual but cannot find the answer.

Can crews that abandon a gun "re-crew" it after they get their morale back/suppression down? Seems like they should but I cannot make it happen.

Thanks.

[Mobhack]

New to this sim...many thanks to the authors. It's really great! A few quirks but overall a great package.

Question: I have searched the forums and the manual but cannot find the answer.

Can crews that abandon a gun "re-crew" it after they get their morale back/suppression down? Seems like they should but I cannot make it happen.

Thanks.

1) This is a game and not in any way a simulation.

2) Yes - move the crew for the gun back to the hex of their abandoned gun or tank, and leave them there for a move

Andy

[gila]

Can crews that abandon a gun "re-crew" it after they get their morale back/suppression down? Seems like they should but I cannot make it happen.

Thanks.

It could be they are still too supressed and under fire.
Use smoke as a screen until they can man their guns again.

[hoplitis]

I think there is a catch here. If the crew has suffered some "damage" (ie "lost" at least one man) it won't "re-crew" its vehicle/weapon. Correct?

[Mobhack]

I think there is a catch here. If the crew has suffered some "damage" (ie "lost" at least one man) it won't "re-crew" its vehicle/weapon. Correct?

Nope. So long as there is 1 man left they will re-crew if in the same hex and pinned or less.

Andy

[Cross]

New to this sim...many thanks to the authors. It's really great! A few quirks but overall a great package.

Question: I have searched the forums and the manual but cannot find the answer.

Can crews that abandon a gun "re-crew" it after they get their morale back/suppression down? Seems like they should but I cannot make it happen.

Thanks.

Hi Joe,

Welcome to the forum.

Sometimes I will pick up a crew, that has abandoned their gun and fled, with a nearby transport.

Crews that have abandoned their gun are 'retreating' or 'routed', and you can only move them back on foot when they are 'ready'; but you can pick them up with transport and return them while they are still 'pinned'.

Once they are back at their own gun (can only re-crew their own equipment) they will usually re-crew it by the next turn, as long as they don't get shot at again.

I recommend you download the Hot key Quick Reference sheet here:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41860

This sheet is a quick way to learn many of the things you are able to do in SP, and how to do them.

cheers,
Cross

[Mobryan]

Correlary:

If the enemy abandons a piece of equipment, what's the best way to destroy it so they can't recrew??

Matt

[junk2drive]

Occupy the hex with the enemy equipment for a turn.

[Cross]

Occupy the hex with the enemy equipment for a turn.

This isn't just a good way to keep a crew from re-manning the equipment, but is also a way for you to gain extra points.

Especially in the case of abandoned tanks. Occupy the abandoned tank hex for one turn and it will brew up, and you get points for KOing the tank.

Not sure if the unit that wrecks the abandoned equipment gets a kill and gains experience. Perhaps Don or Andy could answer this?

cheers,
Cross

[Mobryan]

Damn, that simple???? LOL, I've attacked the hex with everything from satchel charges and flamethrowers to direct fire 152's with no result, and all I had to do was park there??? :doh: :doh: :doh:


Matt

[junk2drive]

Amazing what is hidden in the game manual.

[PanzerBob]

Simply grand, all these years didn't know I could destroy abandoned EN equipment!!! Love this game!!!

Thanks

Bob out:D

[Firestorm]

Shame abandoned equipment can't be captured. It would come in particularly handy when playing long campaigns with poorer nations or partisans.

[Imp]

Shame abandoned equipment can't be captured. It would come in particularly handy when playing long campaigns with poorer nations or partisans.

Realisticly how long would they keep it working, get ammo for etc. A rifle yes a vehicle not long probably, especialy partisans with no maintanence pool.
If you take something like the Germans using captured T-34s about 70% of them were used as recovery vehicles & if anyone had to make do & fix things with what was available it was probably them from mid war on.

[Cross]

Shame abandoned equipment can't be captured. It would come in particularly handy when playing long campaigns with poorer nations or partisans.

I thought you can use captured equipment. But you must purchase it. You could make yourself a rule that you only purchase equipment that you captured intact in a previous battle.

I have an agreement with my current PBEM opponent for our campaign:

Captured equipment: You may purchase an enemy vehicle or crewed gun that surrendered, was abandoned or immobilised, and ended a previous battle undestroyed and overrun.

By 'overrun' I mean either cut off, surrounded, or generally under your control.

I just added this to my Word doc of standard preferences that I send over to PBEM opponents.


Shame abandoned equipment can't be captured. It would come in particularly handy when playing long campaigns with poorer nations or partisans.

Realisticly how long would they keep it working, get ammo for etc. A rifle yes a vehicle not long probably, especialy partisans with no maintanence pool.
If you take something like the Germans using captured T-34s about 70% of them were used as recovery vehicles & if anyone had to make do & fix things with what was available it was probably them from mid war on.

Captured equipment certainly presented challenges, but it was done by many nations.

Here's an interesting article about a Panther tank used by the British in 1944 and 45.

http://www.twenot.nl/cuckoo.htm

cheers,
Cross

[Firestorm]

Shame abandoned equipment can't be captured. It would come in particularly handy when playing long campaigns with poorer nations or partisans.

Realisticly how long would they keep it working, get ammo for etc. A rifle yes a vehicle not long probably, especialy partisans with no maintanence pool.
If you take something like the Germans using captured T-34s about 70% of them were used as recovery vehicles & if anyone had to make do & fix things with what was available it was probably them from mid war on.
Quite a few partisan forces did use captured vehicles in World-War-II-as-we-know-it, and this is modelled in the TO&E's of e.g. Poland and Yugoslavia.

I thought you can use captured equipment. But you must purchase it. You could make yourself a rule that you only purchase equipment that you captured intact in a previous battle.

That's pretty much what I'll do with support points when I play long campaigns.

[Imp]

I think the article shows pretty much the problems, 44-45 used a total of 3 times once as an arty base then it broke down. No mention was made of it scoring a kill so perhaps HE was all it had available.
Capturing large amounts of them or taking over a country with the manufacturing base for ammo & spare parts is a diffrent story, its now become part of your force.
I would not be surprised if they often broke down on the way to the next battle if you are talking tanks, this was the after all the 1940s.

[Cross]

I agree with you Imp. But keep in mind the SP context, where we typically choose any friendly equipment we want, and it 'arrives' with full crew, full ammo, no mechanical issues.

If you were to agree to use captured equipment, it would be completely reasonable to insist that a piece of captured equipment be available for only the next three battles; assuming it isn't KO.


cheers,
Cross

[RERomine]

With respect to only vehicles only, can the be captured "intact"? Will a crew bail out of an undamaged vehicle? I think they will bail out of an immobilized vehicle, but if it's not immobilized they will rout, vehicle and all. I've never paid very close attention to that.

In general, I make a practice of destroying abandoned enemy equipment. Having it come back to life after the crew regained some intestinal fortitude is not something I like to happen.

[Xrati]

Don't forget about running out of fuel and leaving 'on foot' to get away. I do not beleive that many tanks were captured in battle, but rather abandoned for lack of fuel or having a breakdown.

[Imp]

Yes naughty crew they were supposed to destroy the tank when they left. If look at records for Tigers lost at the end of the war I think you will find more were destroyed by there crews than enemy fire. Mainly due to a lack of petrol & it being a bit heavy to push.

[Imp]

Cross
Its entirely upto you as a player what you think would be reasonably common.
My view is infantry weapons yes to an extent but vehicles they are probably struggling to keep there own stuff going let alone work on something they are not used to apart from basic transport like a truck.

Most players would get the hump if they bought a company of 10 tanks & only 3 showed up at the start with another couple arriving later. You could no doubt model a second movement class that has a % to breakdown for every hex entered. You know petrols nearly gone just dont know when its going to run out.
Same thing goes for ammo loads including infantry you would just micro manage keepinng an eye on by keep looking up.
Guessing here but in the heat of combat think you should just be more selective with targets. Notice ammos getting low & the next warning is a shout of last round

[Cross]

With respect to only vehicles only, can the be captured "intact"? Will a crew bail out of an undamaged vehicle? I think they will bail out of an immobilized vehicle, but if it's not immobilized they will rout, vehicle and all. I've never paid very close attention to that.

In general, I make a practice of destroying abandoned enemy equipment. Having it come back to life after the crew regained some intestinal fortitude is not something I like to happen.

Hi Ray,

You are right that in SP vehicles will usually be immobolized or badly damaged before crews bail. However, I've bailed crews from still running vehicles in an attempt to extract the crew on foot.

IRL, vehicles may merely need a track repair or wheel change; but the crew sensibly bailed and ran because they couldn't do this in the middle of the battle, and they no doubt hoped to recover the vehicle later.

Crews will often not have time/ablity (under fire/panicked) to destroy their vehicle, or may choose not to, because they hope to recover it.

The agreement only allows you to use abandoned equipment that finishes the battle under your control, therefore was not recovered.

By choosing not to destroy an overrun piece of kit, you won't gain the points/experience for the KO. But what's a few points when you can get your hands on a slightly used Panther G :D

Please keep in mind that I generally don't allow the purchase of captured equipment. But this seems a good way - in Campaigns - to utilise this facet of SP.

cheers,
Simon

[Imp]

Slightly diffrent & do more in MBT but can use a diffrent force for support if agree, normaly use a force with worse equipment but could do the other way.
If do normaly say any extra air or arty may come from either force but not both but all other units must come from supporting nation.
So could do Hungary with German support in WW2 or S.Korea with Australian or US support for instance.
Has the advantage sort of of knowing whose in your core, thing is your opponent does to.

[RERomine]

I've also manually bailed crews out of tanks to save both the crew and the tank. The tank was immobilized by artillery and still in the impact zone so I bailed the crew and retrieved them very quickly with an APC and scooted. This was very gamey however since it rendered the tank immune to the artillery once the crew bailed, so I haven't done it since. It just didn't feel right. I will still bail crews if there is a real world purpose for it, but I don't do it to take advantage of a game loophole anymore.

I agree it does take a bit of time to abandon and destroy a tank properly. We would removed the .30cal machine guns, lock open the ammo doors, put a round under the gun breach and then drop a thermite grenade in the breach. Not something you want to do with the clock ticking and being under fire could mean you might not get out before the grenade burns through the breach and to the live round underneath. This was for an M1A1 Abrams. I suspect the procedure would be different for WWII era tanks and might be a more lengthy process. Not sure on that.

Not being impacted in the game by outside influences such as replacement part problems, isolation, etc., I've never used equipment from other "friendly" nations during my battles. There have been instances where I used so called "captured" equipment, but only because it was on my purchase list to begin with. I recall using some T-34s in North Africa as the Germans for some reason, probably for the novelty of it. It is unlikely they would have really shipped any there.

Within the game, it's all personal preference. There is no "wrong" way about things. If people want to use captured equipment or simulate it somehow, more power to them.

[Imp]

As you say its all personnel prefference I put the idea forward as it allows more choice of weapons like using captured stuff. They would be profficent with its use but still it does not happen that often even if you have several forces fighting on the same side they are looking after there own sectors. It is after all a game & rare sights are seen in it all the time