New game - The Art of War, Fight!

[Executor]

New game, The Art of War,

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperilled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperilled in every single battle."

No diplomacy game!

Age - MA game

Players - 16

MAP – Glory of the Gods

Nations - they will be randomly assigned, there will be no trading of nations if you do not like what you get.

Mods – CBM 1.5

Victory conditions – capture 8 capitals, once you have achieved your goal send you turn to the non playing admin, WingedDog for inspection.


Game settings:

Independents - 5
Research - Standard
Magic Sites - 45
Money - Default
Resources - Default
Supplies - Default
Random Events - Default (which is Common)
Re-naming - Off
Score Graphs - On
Hall Of Fame – 15
No exploits, stacking domes, copying Bogus orders and such

Hosting Schedule, Delays, Stale Turns, AI/Substitutes
A rough schedule will be -
First Turn - 48h.
Turn 2-20 - 24h quickhost
Turn 20 and beyond – negotiable
Personally, I feel that there should not be any delays made in the first 15-20 turns, people tend to lose interest and that might trigger a chain-reaction.

One more thing, do not sign up unless you can commit to this game and vanish without a trace at the first sight of defeat,

Everybody's welcome, and everything's up for negotiations, sign up.
State your settings and proposals for this game, Ashdod is banned.

List of players so far:

Baalz
Zeldor
Alpine Joe
Trumanator
Isokron
Sambo
Shuma
Statttis
Cerlin
Dragar
Calahan
Agema
TheDemon
hEad
shard
Executor

NATIONS:

Ermor -
Man - played by Dragar
Marginon -
Mictlan -
Machaka -
Agartha -
Abysia -
Cealum - played by Statttis
C'tis -
Pangaea - played by Executor
Vanheim -
Jotunheim- played by Shuma
Shiny - played by Cerlin, Strech played the last few turns to make the dead man stand
Atlantis -
Oceania -
Eriu -
__________________________________________________ ______________ UPDATE>

CBM 1.5 can be found here.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43120

In case of breaking communication, and violating the no diplomacy rule, you will be either turned AI or there will be found a permanent sub. There will be no excuses.
You may not reveal your identity or "your Empires affair" at any time. Once you are eliminated you may post which nation you played if you want, but not who killed you.
BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU POST!

Everybody is free to comment on stuff like indie strength, and other harmless stuff like that as long as it doesn't jeopardize you or another player.

Do not use your own names on Pretenders! I recon just leave them as they are.

Send in your pretender and let the battle commence.

[WingedDog]

I have some spare time lately, and could help to assign the nations, and perhabs co-admining.

[Baalz]

I'll play

[Zeldor]

What would be so special about that game? There is RAND starting right now for a bit more experienced players, so you may have it hard to get vets here. I am tempted to join, with with random nations in MA I can get smth sucky. Can I resign if I really don't like the nation I get? And Ashdod is of course banned?

[Executor]

I don't know why Ashdod would be banned?

How did I not see that new no diplomacy game???
(edit: so it appears that teh RAND-DOM DOWN is invites only)

However you are correct about vets Zeldor, so I'll open this game for everybody. I'll probably just admin this then, unless someone who doesn't play volunteers to co-admin, and maybe Pasha will open that game for more players so I can play there perhaps, who knows...

No diplomacy, EVERYTHING up for negotiations.

[Zeldor]

no diplomacy means no in-game messaging too?

Ashdod is way way more powerful than any other nation that ever existed. You can make a team game, teams of 3, Ashdod alone, and he will win. I think Ashdod is banned in pretty much every game. There is no sense in playing with them, especially with no diplo to gang on them.

[Executor]

no diplomacy means no in-game messaging too?

Ashdod is way way more powerful than any other nation that ever existed. You can make a team game, teams of 3, Ashdod alone, and he will win. I think Ashdod is banned in pretty much every game. There is no sense in playing with them, especially with no diplo to gang on them.

I think there should be no in-game messaging either. Slow but still possible way to team up and form alliances, and there should be no diplomacy.

It's been a while since I played a MA game with Ashdod, back than they didn't seem that all-mighty, maybe something changed in the meantime, thought their EA cousin was the bad guy.
But yeah, we can bane Ashdod. However I think a vote would be fare.

[Alpine Joe]

I would like to play in this.

I don't care if Ashdod is in either way.

[Zeldor]

Executor:

Look at the Ashdod thread in main section. Hinnom was the bad guy because it got a lot of attention early on. So devs did read it and reacted. But then people tried Ashdod and took a better look and noticed how uber it is. There is not much ranting about it now because it is banned in 90% of MA games [and MA games are really uncommon recently]. You can ask some vets :)

Anyway, I am in, but there are few nations that I don't want to play, so if I roll one of them, I will have to step out.

[Stretch]

It says no diplomacy, but later on you talk about not breaking NAPs and agreements... aren't those mutually exclusive concepts?

Edit: So it looks like it's definitely no making NAPs/alliances/etc.

[Executor]

Hm, Ashdod sure does have an overwhelming magical force,
and Adons can easily become SC's with 3 misc sloths! What's up with that?
Heat for free design bonus, forge bonus, possible strong bless with good scales...
OK, I'll have to say no to Ashdod in this game.

Quote
It says no diplomacy, but later on you talk about not breaking NAPs and agreements... aren't those mutually exclusive concepts?

Ah, yeah, that was before being sure that this would be a no diplomacy game, I've changed some things since than.

[Trumanator]

Well since it looks like I'm SOL on the RAND game I guess I'll join this one. As far as Ashdod goes, I haven't really had any firsthand experience with them, so I'll just go with whatever everyone else wants. As far as nations I don't want to play... I suppose that I can play anything short of Oceania at least marginally well.

[Isokron]

I would be interested in joining. I have no special requests for any of the stuff left open.

[WingedDog]

Executor
Ummmmm... You must have misunderstood me. :) I didn't mean to take part in this game, I just volunteered for helping you as a third party in assigning the nations and co-admining if it is required.

[Executor]

Executor
Ummmmm... You must have misunderstood me. :) I didn't mean to take part in this game, I just volunteered for helping you as a third party in assigning the nations and co-admining if it is required.

I have indeed misunderstood you, thank you for offering to co-admin with me very much!
This opens the possibility for me to play in this game now.

[Sambo]

Looks like fun! I'm in!

[Alpine Joe]

Also could I suggest CBM?

[Shuma]

I would like to try, but what is meant by no diplomacy? Obviously no board PMs and in game messages but no trading also? What about the ever-common "XXX kicked my ***, he's too powerful now, gang 'im!" board posts?

Is the point of the game no one knows who plays who?

[statttis]

I'd like to join in.

CBM nerfs Ashdod pretty hard from what I've seen. If you use it, you shouldn't need to ban Ashdod.

[PsiSoldier]

Hrrrm I may join this, Ive got a fair bit on my plate at the moment, You dont have a set number of players your looking for so maybe just include me for now but if some other games heat up I may have to drop this before it starts.

[Dragar]

I get the feeling that the main 'new' thing about this game is being missed by a lot of posters - Executor is chasing only vets that have won MP games ;)

[Shuma]

Well, I'm no vet, but check the Hall for my name. ;)

[Executor]

I get the feeling that the main 'new' thing about this game is being missed by a lot of posters - Executor is chasing only vets that have won MP games ;)

While I would prefer more vets in this game I think that isn't going to happen, so everybody's free to enter this game.

[Dragar]

ah, in that case I'm in :)

[Zeldor]

I'd like CBM used too, of course. That's pretty standard now. And new version is coming, maybe even today. CBM didn't change Ashdod much, QM did not want to do work reserved for devs.

[Executor]

I would like to try, but what is meant by no diplomacy? Obviously no board PMs and in game messages but no trading also? What about the ever-common "XXX kicked my ***, he's too powerful now, gang 'im!" board posts?

Is the point of the game no one knows who plays who?

Yeah that's exactly the point of the game, you don't know who plays the nation you're attacking.
That also means there will be no trading of items since it would reveal your identity so I advice you to design your pretenders carefully.
There will also be no," Hey let's all kill Ulm, he's got the forge" posts.
When somebody gets killed, than his identity may be reviled, but not the attackers.

When designing pretenders use random names.

By no means can anyone suggest that he is in war with eg. Ermor, because it could potentially lead to ganging up on that player, use spies to follow up on that stuff.

Also very important, if you need a temp/perm sub, don't post yourself but PM either WingedDog, or me. Still haven't worked out the admin duty but I will soon.

We will also be using CBM 1.5 now.

So far it looks like we've got 10 players.

And one last thing, I would like to hear your opinions on having score graphs either on or off in this game.

[Zeldor]

I say score graphs on.

[Shuma]

Well, if you guys will have me I'd like to try. And graphs off will make for an even more anonymous experience.

[Dragar]

I say on

[Calahan]

Count me in as well please.

Close to my limit now on games, but find that sorting out diplomacy usually takes longer than sorting out moves, so I'm well up for a no chat, no trading, no coordinated attacks, just good old fashioned everyone for themselves type of game. No diplomacy games are the way forward IMO.

Also one suggestion, you might want to disable re-naming, since it could help give away a players identities due to many players liking to rename their commanders after the random picks they get. Since it's then feasible for someone to start making a list (from the various games they might be in) of who renames their commanders like this and who doesn't. Think as many measures as possible should be taken to keep identities a secret.

Final point, you might want to mention something about what the penalties are if someone does communicate during the game. Will they be warned, instantly turned AI etc. While I'd like to believe that everyone will stick to the spirit of the game, it would be useful for clarity sakes to state the rules clearly before hand in case anyone is tempted.....

"Oh sorry, I forgot there wasn't any diplomacy in this game. It won't happen again honest. And it's no big deal since I only needed to do it once so that I could arrange for everyone to attack the player who just attacked me"

[Agema]

I'll play, I've got 2 on the go and room for one more.

I'd also like to clarify diplomacy: this must mean no trading, alliances, NAPs and other agreements, but are you allowed simple messages of intent in-game like "I don't plan on attacking you", or "Prepare to die, heretic scum!"?

I always prefer graphs on, mostly actually from a roleplay-style view that I think the world would have nations with embassies, merchants, and travellers who would have basic information about other lands which would let rulers know that sort of general information about others.

I'll play anything given randomly. It's half the fun.

[TheDemon]

I would like to play. I'm in support of fully random nations (no trading etc), no mod nations, CBM 1.5, and graphs on.

As for the victory condition, with this many players and still more signing up, seems the easiest would be a certain percentage of capitals.

[Zeldor]

Agema:

No in-game messages at all. No trading. Not sending of anything if you get defeated. No telling anyone in the game what nation you have. It's like SP, but with humans, not AIs :)

And I agree with TheDemon - VPs at capitals, preferably around 35-40% to win, depends on number of players [if it's big, 30% may be enough].

[Trumanator]

I'm indifferent to graphs.

[hEad]

I'd like in please. Graphs on, CBM, the rest as it comes.

[Executor]

Also one suggestion, you might want to disable re-naming, since it could help give away a players identities due to many players liking to rename their commanders after the random picks they get. Since it's then feasible for someone to start making a list (from the various games they might be in) of who renames their commanders like this and who doesn't. Think as many measures as possible should be taken to keep identities a secret.

Final point, you might want to mention something about what the penalties are if someone does communicate during the game. Will they be warned, instantly turned AI etc. While I'd like to believe that everyone will stick to the spirit of the game, it would be useful for clarity sakes to state the rules clearly before hand in case anyone is tempted.....

"Oh sorry, I forgot there wasn't any diplomacy in this game. It won't happen again honest. And it's no big deal since I only needed to do it once so that I could arrange for everyone to attack the player who just attacked me"

Yeah, I forgot about renaming. We'll have it on off as to protect players from themselves.

And I have been thinking about the penalties for breaking communication, just not sure how to go with it.
I too hope that everybody will play in the spirit of the game but in case they "accidentally forget",
at the very least I think a permanent sub should be found, making them AI could cause even more unstability to the game.
So, IMO, kicked out or AI.

Agema, no communication of any kind. You are free to reveal you identity only once you're dead, but only your own, and there will be no posts like,"Oh damn Pangaea killed me".
Everybody is free to comment on stuff like indie strength, and other harmless stuff like that as long as it doesn't jeopardize you or another player.

So, victory conditions, percentage of capitals, I agree with this. We will have to sort this out later, once we see how many players we've got.

Now, nation selection. This is a you choose type of game, so what kind of system would you prefer?
Do you want a standard, random nations all the way, meaning no trading or anything of that kind,
or,
Do we steal Baalzes idea from Fearun, you state eg. two nation you don't want to play. Or maybe someone has an even better idea?

There also seem to be no objections to this being a MA game, so I recon that is settled.

[Zeldor]

Stating some nations you don't want sounds good.

[Dragar]

I reckon pure random

[Calahan]

Changed my mind to now preferring pure random nations. IMO if you can't play the hand you're dealt, then maybe your skills are not as high as what you thought they were. Anyone can be a good player if they constantly play the same nation until they perfect a strategy for it, and making players play new nations tests out their versatility.

I do have my usual reservations about marking capitals with a bull's-eye VP though. Maybe just have the usual X number of capitals, with all victory claims going to the non playing admin for checking.

Edit: I did originally say the Legends of Faerun system for nation selection was fine, but then I read hEad's post below and realised it's correct that stating nations you don't want to play partly gives away your identity. So my vote is now for pure random.

[hEad]

I reckon pure random

I agree here; tis the only truly anonymous means of getting into the game. We can’t trade, because that would give away who we are, and by selecting some nations not to have, we know that citizen x is definitely not selection y...

Go random and let the dice decide!

[Zeldor]

Hmm... right. Total random may be best for that game.

[Executor]

So far we have total random nation asigment.
I've been thinking of a way of entering this game myself by spiting the admin work with WingedDog, who has been so kind to help, but I think that would complicate things way more, so I'll stay out of this game.

But one of you better make a no diplomacy, random nation game some time if the future, or else!!!:)

[WingedDog]

Executor
I se no reason for you to not participate in the game.
That's my plan:
1) I assign the nations using my random numbres generator utility to the players I see on the list in the 1st post.
2) I PM each player what nation does he get.
3) When we know how many people will be playing the game - I'll put fixed staring locations on the map.

Everithing else about co-admining via PM.

[Calahan]

But one of you better make a no diplomacy, random nation game some time if the future, or else!!!:)

I volunteer to start one up just for you Executor to say thanks for admining this one for everyone else :) Give me a nudge toward the weekend in case I forget (my memory is generally ok, so I should remember).

I would start it now, but there seems to be quite a few games looking for players at the moment, so wouldn't want to get lost in the crowd.

[Executor]

Executor
I se no reason for you to not participate in the game.
That's my plan:
1) I assign the nations using my random numbres generator utility to the players I see on the list in the 1st post.
2) I PM each player what nation does he get.
3) When we know how many people will be playing the game - I'll put fixed staring locations on the map.

Everithing else about co-admining via PM.

That might just work.
I'll have to think about it just a bit, but perhaps I will play here myself, but only if nobody objects.
I say we wait for CBM 1.5 and than close the game.

It looks like we'll have somewhere around 15 or so players so maybe we could use Orania map, or Glory of the Gods?

Calahan, thanks for offering to organize another game, but please don't! Or I won't resist joining it.:o

[hEad]

What a deed WingedDog - legend! :)

Orania sounds good, its a nice map.

If we are going to wait for the new CBM, would it be possible to get the nations out ASAP, so we can spend a few days scheming in the interim?

[TheDemon]

the new CBM

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43120

[hEad]

yeah, found it not long after i posted. You have to admire efficiency!

[WingedDog]

I'll start assigning the nations as soon as I get some information from Executor. I need to know the quantity of water nations and if pick is irreversable.

[Ossa]

Can I still join or are all spaces taken already?

[Executor]

You're in Ossa, and now this game is officially closed!

So far we've established Orania map, CBM 1.5, and no changing of nations.

One last thing, water nation in or out?
If we take water nation we will have to have either two or none, since I feel only one water nation is a huge advantage.

Oh, almost forgot, victory con.
How about owning something like 7 or so capitals out of 16?

[hEad]

What about 8 capitals for an even 50% conquest or 9 for the majority?

[Agema]

One thing to bear in mind, on the assumption that a player is dead or next to it when their capital falls (not absolutely true, but not far off). It will be reasonably clear who killed who from the VP graph. If people want to avoid this, VPs would not be necessary, it would merely require a player to claim victory in the file - he'll know when he has made it.

With regard to water nations, they might be a good idea. The ease with which various nations can get underwater varies enormously - anyone with easy access to undead or the likes of Agartha with national amphib units can get in quickly, whereas others might not be able to manage it until much later, which could be unbalancing as they'll access all the gold and gems very quickly.

[Zeldor]

I don't think it is a real problem that we know who killed who. There is no diplomacy, but there is common sense, to gang on someone who has like 6 VPs already. Hidden VPs are really really bad idea, especially in no diplo game.

I'd suggest around 40% of VPs, so 7 or 8 out of 16.

Maybe we could use one other tweak to nation selection? Make it random, but with an option to reroll [24h to get that], so if you don't like a nation you can request a roll out of other unassigned ones [you wouldn't know which ones are those] and that pick would be final. That would keep it all random and eliminate the need to play unliked/sucky nation [imagine getting Ulm in no-trade game].

[Executor]

I'm good either way on either having victory points or not.
Personally I think it would be more interesting without victory points, and much easier to find a winner and would force a greater use of spying.

However, it would make the victory much easier for the stronger player to achieve, and could enable an underdog nation like Eriu to steal the win, thrust me, I've been there.

Personally I find my games with strong nations like Mictlan much harder to handle, but that with diplomacy and that changes a lot...
Anyway,

Zeldor,
I'm assuming what you mean is this,
There are 16 of us, each one gets assigned with a nation. That leaves 6 unassigned nation left (without Ashdod). If one want a reroll than, he would be given one of the unassigned nation.
Something like that right?

I think it would be best to have two water nation on this map, as Agema suggested it makes a big difference with Agartha for eg.
Personally It I'd like to get Agartha or Oceania myself


Also, no need to rush victory conditions yet, we have time until we design pretender to choose, so we'll wait for more votes on that.

[Zeldor]

Executor:

Yeah, exactly like that.

[Trumanator]

Could we our nations soon then? I really want to have some time to test stuff out, especially with the new CBM.

[WingedDog]

I'm good either way on either having victory points or not.
Personally I think it would be more interesting without victory points, and much easier to find a winner and would force a greater use of spying.

However, it would make the victory much easier for the stronger player to achieve, and could enable an underdog nation like Eriu to steal the win, thrust me, I've been there.

Personally I find my games with strong nations like Mictlan much harder to handle, but that with diplomacy and that changes a lot...
Anyway,

Zeldor,
I'm assuming what you mean is this,
There are 16 of us, each one gets assigned with a nation. That leaves 6 unassigned nation left (without Ashdod). If one want a reroll than, he would be given one of the unassigned nation.
Something like that right?

I think it would be best to have two water nation on this map, as Agema suggested it makes a big difference with Agartha for eg.
Personally It I'd like to get Agartha or Oceania myself


Also, no need to rush victory conditions yet, we have time until we design pretender to choose, so we'll wait for more votes on that.

If this are your final settings, should I proceed to assigning the nations?

[Executor]

Yeah, go ahead and assign nations please. Note that we must have two water nation.

[Zeldor]

Ok, waiting for PM with my nation then :)

I guess you just start a game with random nations, see what came and assign to people in order they joined?

[TheDemon]

One thing about Orania, if you are using VP conditions, you'll have to take the built-in VPs out of the map file, or else they will be there in addition to capitals.

Personally I'm in favor of Glory of the Gods multiplayer and two water nations. Mainly because I'm in another game where we're playing Oriana and I want a change, but also because Oriana's 259 land provs among 14 land players, although not unreasonable, is on the high end.

[WingedDog]

Should water naions be unrepickable then? Or, perhabs, they could be repicked only if any other person desires to repick his land nation? In this case person who desires to get another nation has a good chance to end up with water one.

[Executor]

Yes, WingedDog will assign the nation in the order people joined, which mean I'll probably end up with Man and they're even weaker in CBM. :)

Ok, I'm not sure about repicking water nations, let's just assign the nations for now and see ho it goes.

[Zeldor]

There are 3 water nations, so repicking one water would mean getting one of other 2 water ones, I think.

[Zeldor]

Executor:

Random is random :)

[Executor]

There are 3 water nations, so repicking one water would mean getting one of other 2 water ones, I think.

I guess that would be OK.

EDIT: If we end up short with water nation, than one player should be randomly chosen to be switched as a random water nation, the same if we get all 3 water nation, on pler should be randomly chosen and made a land nation.
Does this sound OK?

[WingedDog]

The deed is done. Expect PMs with your picks in the near future.
*DRUM ROLL*

[Zeldor]

You will feel the pain of PM system on that forums :)

[WingedDog]

Zeldor
Yes, I know what you mean, and I'm ready for that. :)

[WingedDog]

I've sent PM with nation pick to every player. If for some reasons you didn't get it - contact me.

[Executor]

Hmm, interesting nation.
Well I have a very ludacris experiment in mind.

EDIT:
So everybody's been assigned with a nation. I suggest you start testing out stuff and designing your pretender now.

Also, we haven't settled the number of capitals required for victory, I need your votes folks.

And again, Orania or Glory of the Gods?
Orania is perhaps a lil big for us 14 land nation is close to 19 provinces each, but it a very nice map, and it's wraparound.
I dislike Glory of The Gods since position easily determines the course of game with all those wastelands on that map, and there are some position from which you can not possibly win.
Vote.

[Trumanator]

For VPs- 50% sounds good to me.

For map- I'm not sure why, but I really dislike Orania. I think its something to do with the color scheme, not to mention the fact that wraparound maps make my brain hurt. Glory for me.

[Zeldor]

Isn't there a remade Glory of the Gods for multiplayer?

Orania looks really bad for MP, unbalanced starts, uber magic sites at VPs...

[Calahan]

Think we should only go for 'Glory of the Gods' if there are three water nations, or two water nations with all the South East seas gettings tagged as no start. As a water nation getting the entire Western sea to themselves is a bit overpowering to say the least.

I am currently in a game with the Orania map, and think Zeldor is right in saying it certainly has some issues with balance, and is probably not such a good map for MP games.

[Zeldor]

Scary thing is that any of your neighbours may be played by Baalz.

[Shuma]

Thanks for the admin work, WingedDog!

[Alpine Joe]

Yeah I don't think Orania is best....

[Baalz]

Scary thing is that any of your neighbours may be played by Baalz.

Ah, the joys of not being ganged up on immediately. I think I'm gonna enjoy this....and probably get eliminated in the first year. ;)

[hEad]

Glory of the Gods looks very nice. I'm up for it.

Also any chance in a slight boost in gems? say to 45? A few more gems never hurt no one...much.

[Executor]

Scary thing is that any of your neighbours may be played by Baalz.

Ah, the joys of not being ganged up on immediately. I think I'm gonna enjoy this..... ;)

That makes two of us.:)

Ok, so we're changing to Glory of the Gods map, and I too am for magic site 45.
I'll PM WingedDog to start placing start positions on the map, the two little ponds on the east will be marked as non-start.
And I guess it seems we're on 8 for victory. And we won't be using hidden victory points.

[Zeldor]

We will be using "Glory of the Gods Multiplayer v317" that is on llamaserver?

[Executor]

Yes we will be using the modded v317 GotG.
It doesn't have fixed starting positions doe.

[Sambo]

Could I request a (slightly) late start? It's a holiday weekend in Canada, and I may not be back at the computer until Monday evening.

This is great concept for a game. Prepare for war!

[Calahan]

Think it's pretty sensible to allow the weekend for everyone to work out a Pretender build. Since with random nations there's a good chance some players have ended up with nations they have no experience with, and it's only Baalz who can always come up with a new strategy for a nation inside of 20 minutes :)

[Zeldor]

I had my pretender ready after 8 minutes!

[Calahan]

:) Some nations do offer up some no brainers. Pangaea and a Gorgon is one prime candidate.

[Executor]

:) Some nations do offer up some no brainers. Pangaea and a Gorgon is one prime candidate.

Nah, I don't like the Gorgon... Oracle was always my favorite.
I was testing out the nation in MA to remind myself a bit what out there so I had a pretender ready when I got my nation actually. :)
Sure, we can delay the start, it takes a lot of time to make a proper pretender especially since you have to think even more in advance because of no diplomacy.

[Baalz]

Heh, sure makes magic diversity more important with no trading at all. :)

[WingedDog]

Well, thanks everybody for all the kind words I got in PMs, my pleasure.
I'll start assigning starting locations then, but I still need info about VP's. Do we need them? Are they in the capitals? I only ask becouse capital VP's mean 'target locked' for bless or pretender rushes without scouting.

[Calahan]

Well, thanks everybody for all the kind words I got in PMs, my pleasure.
I'll start assigning starting locations then, but I still need info about VP's. Do we need them? Are they in the capitals? I only ask becouse capital VP's mean 'target locked' for bless or pretender rushes without scouting.

I'm strongly against having capitals marked with VP's for the exact reason you state. I don't see what's wrong with having victory conditions as half capitals (or half+1 to force two superpowers to fight) with all claims going to the non-playing admin.

The graphs are on (AFAIK) so the chances of a sneak victory are very slim. And besides, if you see one nation streaking away on the province front, but then do nothing about stopping them, then you can't complain afterwards with statements like....

"I didn't know XXX was so close to victory. I didn't know they had so many capitals. If I did I would have tried to stop them."

Scouts and good old common sense are your friends here I feel.

[WingedDog]

Alright, I have set up the starting locations. I realise not everybody would be happy with them, but it is hard to get a perfect balance with all those large desert areas, deficit of farms and lack of natural borders in the middle of the map, so please don't hit me too hard. :)
I'm ready to start whenever you are, but since Sambo is unavailible till Monday evening there's no much point to be hasty. Besides before creating a game I'd like to be sure everyone is still here and satisfied with his nation, becouse if someone has dropped off I would have to rebalance positions or search for a replacement.

So please, following people:

Trumanator
Isokron
Shuma
Dragar
Agema
TheDemon
Ossa

send me a PM you are in and happy.

[Shuma]

Sent PM.

[Agema]

I'm happy with nation and good to go.

[WingedDog]

Alright, everyone but Ossa has contacted me. To be honest he was my prime suspect for dissapearing, and I asked everyone to contact me mostly to see if he would show up. His page displays he visited a forum today so I take it he's unhappy with his pick. If I am wrong, I'm sorry.
The game will be created on llamasever in about 14 hours, Ossa has time to confirm his participation untill that time, if he doesn't - he would be replaced.

[WingedDog]

I've just set up the game on llamaserver. Here's the link: <a href=http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Art_of_War>Art of War</a>
Please read the <a href=http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=690461&postcount=1>inhouse rules</a> carefuly, especially the penalty part.
Ossa still didn't show up, so shard from now on is replacing him. He's alredy informed about his pick and is satisfied.
Please do not give other people information whether you've upload your pretender or not.
LET'S GET RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREADY TO RRRRRRRRRRRRRUMBLE! :D

[Executor]

Thank you for setting the game up WingedDog.
Shame about Ossa but better to lose a player before the start than during the game.
So we're all set to go, you all know what to do.

[Ossa]

Sorry, too late. Lost track of this game:(

[Executor]

Looks like we've got 15 out of 16 pretenders in.
Waiting just for this one last pretender in order to start the game, so whoever it is please send in your pretender,
oh and DON'T say who you are for gods sake!

[Calahan]

Did it get confirmed that we are using the new Glory of the Gods map (v.3.17) for this game?

If so, then here is the link for everybody.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=655130

[Zeldor]

Hmm... "funny" starting locations. They were set for every nation or it was random what you get from available starting spots?

[Calahan]

Hmm... "funny" starting locations. They were set for every nation or it was random what you get from available starting spots?

I'm hoping it's the latter, as if it's the former, then that means WingedDog doesn't like me very much :(

[Zeldor]

I don't think you can beat what I got :)

[Calahan]

I don't think you can beat what I got :)

Don't know about that :D Think I'd have a go at raising you five bucks. Reckon I got the poker equivalent of about 9 high.

[PsiSoldier]

Well the last pretender certainly wasnt me because ****ing Wingeddog went and replaced me after I had sent him PM's saying I had school on monday and a test to study for and would not be able to work on my pretender until at least monday night. Now today I go and design my pretender get ready to send it in and see that ?!?WTF?!? the game has already started????

Here's an abrievated clip of my correspondence with him...

I'll need a few days then.


It's ok, since the game isn't starting till Monday evening for sure.

[PsiSoldier]

I'll note that due to the Secretive nature of the game I was not able to state that I'd be late sending a pretender in since it could have given away my chosen nation if I had done so, so all communication was strictly through Wingeddog who ****ed me.

[Zeldor]

Maybe someone just submitted a pretender? Some noobs do that, that's why games should not be on autostart.

And I have no idea what was the last nation to join. I won't cry if we restart.

[Dragar]

yeah i don't think wingeddog subbed you, we should restart

[PsiSoldier]

He told me he subbed me... When I went to send my pretender in and saw the game had started I Pm'd him asking if I hadnt told him I'd be a bit late sending my pretender in.. He replied that I had not and then I looked back through my old messages and saw that I had indeed told him that, which is what I pasted into the thread here..

[PsiSoldier]

I dont know if my nation was the last one to be subbmitted or not. I dont know when he subbed me or if anyone even paid attention to know what the last nation that was submitted actually was IF my nation was the last one submitted.... if both of those are true then if you were to restart someone may know which nation I am playing defeating any of the secretive part.. Otherwise My pretender is designed and ready to be sent in... But its not my decision...

[Shuma]

I would also like to throw in a vote for a restart. I REALLY screwed up my pretender design (as in, he has no magic paths). I must have selected a different chassis and forgot to redistribute points. I will continue this game if people don't want to restart, but hoo-boy, I'm in a hell of a tough spot now.

[WingedDog]

PsiSoldier
Watch your tongue.

Here's an abrievated clip of my correspondence with him...

I'll need a few days then.


It's ok, since the game isn't starting till Monday evening for sure.
1) That was very informative, but sorry, my mind-reader is out of battaries. I thought you need a few days to create a pretender, you never mentioned anything about school and time you'll be availible.
2) Yes, I wrote the game wouldn't start till Monday evening. Turn your logic on: this phrase only means the game may start on Monday evening, and you should appear at that time at least to check the news.
3) Check the time and date.
8214
Few days mean 2-3, and you were absent for almost 4 without giving me any information and possibility to contact you. If you want to play - show your interest, I'm not a babysitter.

Shuma
Perhabs CBM was turned off when you were designing your pretender?

Zeldor Calahan
I know what you mean, there were just no way to design starting locations on this map without 3 'lucky ones'.

[TheDemon]

So with the restart, do we have to or do we not have to re-send in pretenders?

[WingedDog]

I have send the PM to everybody, yes you should resend the pretenders. The game has a new name.

[PsiSoldier]

Few days mean 2-3, and you were absent for almost 4 without giving me any information and possibility to contact you. If you want to play - show your interest, I'm not a babysitter.


ALMOST 4 would be 3 genius. As in A FEW days...

And possibility to contact me??? Wtf does that mean? was I there stopping you from sending a PM saying you might try to find a sub or some ****?? I dont think so.

Geez.

You didnt even ****ing ask for input on if you should find a sub or not in the game thread you just went and did it on your own accord.

[Agema]

Cool down please. There's been no ill-will, just communication mistakes.

[PsiSoldier]

Well, regardless of the game restarting or not it looks like its screwed for me anyways. The bottom line is it looks like Wingeddog simply forgot that I had told him I wouldnt have a chance to work on my pretender until Monday night at the earliest and then instead of simply saying, "Oh shoot, sorry man I completely forgot that you had told me that, I just went ahead and found a sub so we could get the game moving. I appologize" he starts lying to try and cover his tracks. I already knew when I pm'd him asking if I hadnt told him that I had a bunch of stuff to do for school and I wasnt familiar with the nation he assigned me so I'd need a few days before I could look it over and design my pretender, that I had indeed told him that. I just wanted to see if he had forgotten and it jogged his memory. Instead I get "Oh no you didnt say anything about that" at which point I dig up one of his replies to my message. If he had just told the truth from the begining It would have all been cool but he didnt (Or he has a REALLY bad memory) Wingeddog is doing something cool to help out Executor and that is really admirable and regretful that this whole thing happened, not just because it wasted my time but because Wingeddog didnt deserve it himself, accidents happen and its understandable. It was just how he handled the situation afterwords that I did not agree with at all.

On a side note with all this in hindsight I would suggest if anyone needs a delay or anything of that nature and cannot post in the game thread without giving away specifics of your nation I would forward a copy of any correspondence to wingeddog to someone else who is not in the game so you have an additional witness, or have someone else post in the game thread in your place (or simply create a new forum account with a random name). That way it cuts this crap out altogether.

[Agema]

Incidentally, I'm away between about Friday 20.00GMT up to Sunday 20.00GMT with likely no computer access. It would be really handy for me and I suspect minimally disruptive if the time limit for the first turn was set 00.00GMT Monday. If you're really keen to get going, I'll find a sub for the turn or so I couldn't get in.

[Dragar]

aren't graphs meant to be on this game?

[WingedDog]

Dragar
Graphs never appear on turn 1. What did you want to see? :) Afraid you're too low on reserch or provinces comparing to others? :)

[WingedDog]

to all
Please in the future send delay request in PM, so the ather players couldn't figure your nation out as the last one 'waiting for 2h file'. Agema's reqest will be satisfied. More likely with a sub. You'll be informed.

[PsiSoldier]

to all
Please in the future send delay request in PM, so the ather players couldn't figure your nation out as the last one 'waiting for 2h file'. Agema's reqest will be satisfied. More likely with a sub. You'll be informed.

Better yet, create a new forum account with a new name and do it in the thread + PM so you cover your bases.

[WingedDog]

I'll be away for the period of time: evening May 29 - morning June 1, GMT +4. If you have any requests please tell me before I leave.

[WingedDog]

I know Ermor had staled twice and Machaka once. I had PMed to both players and had placed a sub announcement for Ermor. I'll keep you informed if I get any results or news from players.

[Trumanator]

I'm really sorry for staling the last couple turns. My internet cut out somehow and I just got it fixed. Do you want me to continue or stick with whoever you got as a sub, I'm fine either way.

[WingedDog]

Trumanator
In case of breaking communication, and violating the no diplomacy rule, you will be either turned AI or there will be found a permanent sub. There will be no excuses.
You may not reveal your identity or "your Empires affair" at any time. Once you are eliminated you may post which nation you played if you want, but not who killed you.
BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU POST!


And what choice do I have now? You'll be subed.

2 all
No news from Machaka player so far. I haven't found a sub for Ermor yet, but if nobody answers my call I think I'd ask my friend to sub it, at least temporary to bring Ermor into to a good shape and them trade it to someone.


P.S. I'm getting an impression lately there's a sticky on this board:

Rules for joining the game:
1) Read carefully the inhouse rules and then just ignore them.
2) If you have 10 games running feel free to join the another one, you surely have enough time for all of them, nothing's gonna happen in your life.
3) Never think your start game strategy through - becouse if you have a bad start, or just not in the right mood to play you can simply stale until you're expelled from the game, it would bring great balance and would make other 15 people happier.
4) If you decide to abandon the game - never set yourself to AI, what good are administrators for anyway? Never take away the joy of looking for a third party to put you AI.

[WingedDog]

Don't worry for Machaka, the player said it was an accident. Still looking for sub for Ermor.

[WingedDog]

A friend of mine has agreed to run Ermor, at least temporary. The best I could do so far.

[Baalz]

Yeah, seems like there have been a terrible rash of people staling lately. In my legends game I begged, pleaded, threatened with just one request - at the very least set yourself AI. Explained signing up was making a commitment to all the other players investing their time. I think 5 players have just walked away....:(

[Zeldor]

Some games just tend to go that way. In HumanWar at some point 75% of the map was controlled by AIs. As it became rather boring we ended the game with a draw.

[Sambo]

Too bad people are dropping out, but I'm still having a blast in my first multiplayer game. A couple of quick questions:

1) How many games is reasonable to play at the same time? This one is early yet, but so far it's taken only a few minutes once per day. I'm in "Mists of Time" which is starting soon, and am thinking of joining another...

2) If I find magic sites and someone takes over the province, do they get the sites or have to search for them all over again?

Anyway, back to slaughtering enemy 2D sprites. Mwa hahaha!

[Zeldor]

Sambo:

I'd say 3. Maybe 4 if you can get only 1-2 in late game and others in early. In late game it is not hard to spend 10h on one turn.

2) They get them. What is found is found.

[Baalz]

I'm what I'd consider a pretty heavy dominions player, and I aim to have about 5 games going at once, but that's because I stagger them to never have more than 2 in the mid-late game. I figure 3 early games I'll be eliminated in one before late game...:)

[Sambo]

Thanks for the advice... Based on what you're both saying I'll probably add a third game. :D

[Executor]

Depends on the hosting interval, and the map, I'm in six games but they have long hosting intervals, well the ones worth playing and not ganged upon.
However this one largest game I'm in takes time as all the other five games to do!!! I sworn never to join another big game, and than Baalz created Fearun, damn you Baalz!

[TheDemon]

It really depends on the game. Some games have really quick turns and when you don't have to do diplomacy that really helps speed things along. And team games with two teams are the same way as well, with a little more attention involved, as are games in their beginning phases. But a game like Prepo that just ended, where I subbed into managing two nations fighting a losing war I didn't start and had hour-long discussions with at least one (often several) other players every turn, plus micromanaging a map-wide scout network and juggling two full labs of items between two nations every turn, well suffice to say that was too much, even if it had been the only game I was playing, which it wasn't.

I've also had a few really fun late-games where even though turns took an hour plus an hour of discussions with allies, it was worth it in the end. Usually I'll do up to two early games, one late game, and one easy game (duel or rand or whatever) at once.

[PsiSoldier]

In late game it is not hard to spend 10h on one turn.



10 Hours on one turn?? Good lord I cant imagine spending more than 2 even in a very large game. I mean hell I can take over as sub for a nation with 70 provinces in late game that was played by a noob and figure out where everything is at, fix all or most of the easier to find noob mistakes and do the actual turn in less than 2 hours. Now, counting sending PM's and such associated with the game I suppose it might crank up the time spent on the turn considerably.

[Zeldor]

Ha, game is getting into interesting stage now, with less and less indies left. That constant thinking "Will he attack me?"... I guess some nations have it easier and are less likely to get attacked, it is more boring in water and no one wants to fight in Miasma or be eaten by Machakan spiders.

[Sambo]

Based on the tips, I'll keep the games at two. Diplomacy is an extra wrinkle I don't know much about.

Things are definitely getting interesting... We'll probably have some all-out wars soon. Fun!

[Baalz]

Based on the tips, I'll keep the games at two. Diplomacy is an extra wrinkle I don't know much about.

Things are definitely getting interesting... We'll probably have some all-out wars soon. Fun!

That's it, I'm attacking you. Consider this a formal declaration of war.

[WingedDog]

I'm back to my duties. Sorry for unattended requests.
I can see Ermor is staling again, I'll find out what's happened.

[WingedDog]

Ermor player was fishing this weekend, now he's back, and promises there would be no stailing in near future.

[Calahan]

The admin lets slip that the Ermor player likes fishing and is a 'he'. Hhhmmm interesting. Watson, what can we conclude from that?

[Sambo]

Based on the tips, I'll keep the games at two. Diplomacy is an extra wrinkle I don't know much about.

Things are definitely getting interesting... We'll probably have some all-out wars soon. Fun!

That's it, I'm attacking you. Consider this a formal declaration of war.

A foolhardy, if predictable, challenge. If it's war you want, it's war you've got. I suggest everyone else stay out of the way; it's going to get nasty.

To arms!

[Agema]

We, (censored) announce to everyone that we have decided to not publicly or privately state any state of war or peace exists between us and the nation of (censored), if indeed we even know where they actually are. BE WARNED!

[shard]

This is fun, we need more games like this!

[Executor]

Yes we do! Seeing those armies standing on your border and wondering will they turn around or not.

[Executor]

Something very very strange happened to me this turn, am I the only one?

[Baalz]

Nothing weird happen to me.

[Dragar]

nor me. perhaps message winged dog to investigate?

[Zeldor]

Yeah, do it. My turn is fine. At least when it comes to abnormal behaviour.

[WingedDog]

If anybody else have problems with their turns - PM me, meanwhile I'll contact llamabeast.

[WingedDog]

I have no response from llama so far, and since strange things that happened to Executor have no critical consequences I suggest considering them a random event and continue the game as it is.

[WingedDog]

I had requests from several people to increase hosting interval, as 24 hours isn't enough for them to do their turns. From now on it is 36 hours for a turn.

[Calahan]

Can I please just take this oppotunity to thank all the players in this game for making it a very enjoyable affair so far :) It certainly makes for a very different game when you are playing against entirely unknown opponents, which is something I am finding to be a really great change to the way normal games usually play out. So 'Thank You' all for this.

And also thanks again to WingedDog for the selfless admin duties, which he is performing admirably at.

[Dragar]

I'm also enjoying it. In hindsight we should have requested every player keep a turn by turn diary, I'm sure it would be hilarious to read after the game what everyone thought was happening around them

[Calahan]

In hindsight we should have requested every player keep a turn by turn diary, I'm sure it would be hilarious to read after the game what everyone thought was happening around them
That would certainly have been a fun read :D


I know one thing I'm finding interesting is the conclusions I am trying to make with regards how strong the other nations are (player wise) from the battles I see.

Sees Player X do Y in a battle. "Hhhhmmmm, that doesn't look a good idea to me. Looks very odd to do that, so I don't think that's one of the better players. But then again he did win the fight, so maybe it was a good idea, I just didn't think it was. So is that a vet showing their class, or a non-vet making a mistake, but getting a lucky result. Aaarrggghh". Finding that to be really great food for my mind to chew over though :)

[WingedDog]

Well, I can't complain admining this game is incredibly hard. Everybody seem to be nice and disciplined, and if I'm not mistaken nobody gone AI so far, which is a good sign.:)
I really like the concept of the game, though I prefer wraparound maps, as nations starting in the corner have the unfair advantage in my opinion.

[Sambo]

Agreed with all of the above. I like the "Cold War" situation you get in with neighbours, amassing troops and waiting (or planning) for the inevitable attack.

The full out wars are pretty sweet too. Free advice to fellow noobs: taking undefended border provinces seems to anger other players and start wars. Who'd have thunk it?

Back to battle!

[Zeldor]

They were undefended probably because someone put armies back to not provoke you to give sign that he does not want war :) Keeping armies on a border means "do not attack me, I am ready" or "they just sit there, you know, cleaning their weapons" :)

Anyway, Eriu is either Baalz or someone that read his guide :) Looks almost as cool as in Epic Heroes II.

[WingedDog]

Free advice to fellow noobs: taking undefended border provinces seems to anger other players and start wars. Who'd have thunk it?

Back to battle!

On the other hand if the other player takes an undefended border province, he angers you. :) The war is difficult to avoid, especialy in war game. :p

[WingedDog]

Anyway, Eriu is either Baalz or someone that read his guide :) Looks almost as cool as in Epic Heroes II.

Stop provoking a "guess who is who" subject and get back to battlefield! :)

[Zeldor]

I don't think there is a person that didn't read his guides :) And are you suggesting that I;m at war? :)

[Executor]

Zeldor, I declare war on you!
Now you're at war.

[WingedDog]

:fire:And are you suggesting that I;m at war? :)

Whops! Secret information had sliped away, now if anybody sees a nation at war they would know it's YOU! :fire:

[ano]

WingedDog
I always liked the idea of RAND games (original name by PashaDawg) but unfortunately they need an admin who is not playing. Good admin, preferably.
Just a compliment for you being a perfect admin (from my observations of this thread). I really wish I played here...:(

[WingedDog]

WingedDog
I always liked the idea of RAND games (original name by PashaDawg) but unfortunately they need an admin who is not playing. Good admin, preferably.
Just a compliment for you being a perfect admin (from my observations of this thread). I really wish I played here...:(

Thanks for the high praise, Ano.:) You are legend to both shrapnel and russian community, I'd surely let you know if I consider starting another game like this. Autumn more probably.

[Baalz]

Anyway, Eriu is either Baalz or someone that read his guide :) Looks almost as cool as in Epic Heroes II.

Heh, I was wondering if particular play styles would be telling to people who had played many games together before, didn't think about the fact that this might not be as obvious a tell about me for this reason. :)

[WingedDog]

Llamaserver is stuck for the unknown period of time, I'll inform you when it is fixed, please get your turns ready and visit this page for the news at least once a day.

[WingedDog]

Llamaserver fixed! That was kinda fast. :)

[Calahan]

The llamaserver......it's ALIVE!!

Thanks for keeping us updated WingedDog. Top admin stuff from you once again.

[WingedDog]

This weekend I could possibly not have access to the internet, so if you have some delay requests give them to me for the next 20 hours.

[WingedDog]

Well I think it's the time for someone to shout:
FIRST BLOOD! :mean:
Still I'd like to express my gratitude to Jotunheim player for fighting till the very end - it is much apretiated!

[WingedDog]

I'd like to notify you hosting time is going to be 48 hours from turn 31.

[Zeldor]

Who was Jotunheim?

[WingedDog]

Zeldor
Don't you worry, Baalz is still out there praying on the unwary. :evil:

Jotunheim was ruled by Shuma.

[Zeldor]

I know who Baalz is :)

[WingedDog]

The Shinuyama player seems to go missing. I hold a turn for 24 hours and posted a sub request. Hopefully sub is found or player contacts me for that time. Sorry for inconvenience.

[WingedDog]

Found a temporary sub for Shinuyama. If Shinuyama lasts long enough ofcource to look for a permanent sub.

[Calahan]

Thanks again for all your efforts WingedDog

[Stretch]

Trading water or some fire gems for gear that makes me regenerate. PM me please.

[WingedDog]

Trading water or some fire gems for gear that makes me regenerate. PM me please.

Sorry, out of stock. Last two gone to Wolverine and Clair Bennett. :D

Please check the thread you're in before posting. :)

[Stretch]

Haha, oops, this isn't the Mists of Time thread. Please disregard, unless you are in Mists of Time and want to do a little trading. ;)

[Executor]

I've set myself AI this turn, I'd stay til the end however I find myself with lack of free time now days.
Congrats to the nation that killed me, this was quite possibly my worst game ever played. My little experiment with the pretender turned out to be a total disaster.

BTW I was Pangaea.

[Calahan]

Sorry to see you go Executor, but I'd really hate to see us lose our 100% record on having no AI's so far in this game. Can I suggest that if WingedDog is willing, that he looks for a sub for Executor, and delays the game if necessary to try and find one.

I think it really would be amazing to play in a game where nobody turns AI ever. It might not happen, but we've made it 37 turns so far so who knows?! As every nation being played out to the last by a human is certainly making a big differnce in this game I feel (compared to every other game ever). As how often do you see a game close to turn 40 with only one defeated nation?

Pangaea may be in a hopeless position, but then the Caelum and Machaka positions were appparanty 'hopeless' as well, and both of those nations appear to be making a fight of it. The spider lovers in particular. What's not to love about a nation who unleashes 'The Kindly Ones' upon the world? :)

[WingedDog]

Sorry to see you go Executor, but I'd really hate to see us lose our 100% record on having no AI's so far in this game. Can I suggest that if WingedDog is willing, that he looks for a sub for Executor, and delays the game if necessary to try and find one.

I think it really would be amazing to play in a game where nobody turns AI ever. It might not happen, but we've made it 37 turns so far so who knows?! As every nation being played out to the last by a human is certainly making a big differnce in this game I feel (compared to every other game ever). As how often do you see a game close to turn 40 with only one defeated nation?

Pangaea may be in a hopeless position, but then the Caelum and Machaka positions were appparanty 'hopeless' as well, and both of those nations appear to be making a fight of it. The spider lovers in particular. What's not to love about a nation who unleashes 'The Kindly Ones' upon the world? :)

Cal, do you mind posting a sub topic with refference on me? I'm on a run, and I think sooner we'll post - more chances we have to find a sub before deadline. Thanks for all your help, I wouldn't be able to admin the game properly without it.

[Executor]

OK, I'll try and stick to the end but I can't promise to make every turn.
Just finish me off soon.

[Calahan]

Cal, do you mind posting a sub topic with refference on me? I'm on a run, and I think sooner we'll post - more chances we have to find a sub before deadline. Thanks for all your help, I wouldn't be able to admin the game properly without it.
No problem at all WingedDog, always happy to help as you know. I'll put up a sub-post this afternoon first chance I get.

OK, I'll try and stick to the end but I can't promise to make every turn.
Just finish me off soon.
I know I for one would certainly appreciate it if you could stick it out until the last man, or maybe last maenad. But I'll still look for a sub to relieve you as WingedDog asked.

Edit: Sub post is up.

[Calahan]

:( 37 turns without the AI. A good effort everyone at keeping the evil Autobots out of our affairs, but guess our fine run had to come to an end eventually :( And a double-header as well, with both Pan and Man being turned to the darkside last turn.

My thanks to all those who helped keep the AI at bay for so long in this game. With an extra thanks going to all those who have subbed-in during the course of the game so far to lead heroic backs-to-the-wall defences. As those efforts have without doubt given considerably extra life to so-called defeated nations. My hat's off to you all.

[Zeldor]

Huh, people going AI without putting a fight? That really unbalances the game. Man giving up after what? 2 turns? of war with Eriu...

BTW, that game has some flaws:
1. Now matter what you do and how much you like that map, Glory of the Gods sucks for MP.
2. It is much much worse for RAND game and some nations that start in the middle are really doomed, no matter how good player is.
3. Too many players for no diplo game.
4. Too many unexperienced players that go AI, few better skilled ones don't even get a chance to fight fairly, simply the one that gets more noobs willing to go AI near him wins.

[Executor]

Sorry WingedDog, Calahan I have no idea what happened as I'm sure I sent the turn with different orders but it appears I still went AI?

[Agema]

I agree it's a bit depressing Man has AIed. It might not be huge fun, but at bare minimum a human could stall Eriu potentially for many game years - he's got the gem income (Mother Oak and capital) to fill castles to the brim with units to repair the walls, and the Nature mages to feed them. Admittedly, Man is a pretty bad nation to combat Eriu thugs as there's not many damage types they can pack out Eriu can't easily 100% resist, but it could be done.

We should have a discussion about the game after it's ended to see how well we think it has worked, it's a bit premature and risks letting some stuff out that shouldn't before.

[Calahan]

@ WingedDog - Who was the Man player anyway? It would keep with the tradition of the game to know the defeated/AI nations. As we know Pangaea was Executor, now AI. Jotunheim was Shuma, now defeated. Man was ????, now AI.

[Zeldor]

Well, I PMed my opinion to WingedDog, can't post it here, as it'd reveal my nation.

[WingedDog]

Ok, guys, sorry for being silent for some time - some real life affairs need my attention, and even if I check forum page often and read everything you post I do not always have a time to write back.

The Man was played by Dragar, and it was a surprise for me as well when I knew he turned himself AI. He never PMed anything to me, and I thought my anty-AI policy was clear to everyone in this game. I was always afraid of the moment I wouldn't be able to find a sub and a nation is turned AI, as I knew it would shake the balance and there would be displeased players. I understand nobody likes another nation grabing loads of 'free' land while he had to make a heavy fight for every inch.

At this moment we can't do anything to change the course of the game, we can only make some conclusions and use our experience in future games. I made one conclusion for myself: if I ever make another game - it should be a closed game for proved forum members. The only question is: will there be enough of players to fill the game?

But, anyway, Man is dead, long lives the Man! At last, as much as I heard, Pangaea literally fought to the last comander. In Dominions, like in real life would never be a perfect balance, and personaly I find most amusing searching for solutions if anything goes wrong (and it does pretty often :)). So stop thinking about things couldn't be changed and better start thinking about what still could be done to remain competive and achive victory, but if you ever find your situation hopeless and not worth your time to continue - contact me, I would, at least, try to find a sub to make game more interesting (and balanced) for remaining players.

[Executor]

At last, as much as I heard, Pangaea literally fought to the last comander.

Yeah, it was rather interesting. I only had my immobile pretender left in the end and some scattered indie troops since I couldn't recruit commanders to lead them:p.

I still had a load of provinces once I was practically dead as it was just a rush to each others capitals back and forth the whole time.:)

BTW Order/Production is no way to play Pangaea.
A few times I recruited the wrong satires (they all look the same!!!:rolleyes:), forgot to attack my enemy while odds were still on my side, left sneaky troops to sneak instead of attack, left sneaky troops to attack instead of sneak, lost two forts under construction to stupidity...
Not my best game.

PS. Would you guys like me to update the first post and who was which nation?

[Calahan]

@ Executor - I can only speak for myself, but I'd welcome an update to the status page with regards who played which nation (that we know so far) and who's been defeated/AI etc.

[Calahan]

@ WingedDog - You've done a wonderful job as admin so far, and you've put more work into this game than could possibly have been expected from you. Especially seeing as how you are not even able to enjoy the rewards of all your hard work (the reward being a really enjoyable game). And hard work it must have been as well considering the number of subs that have needed finding so far.

I agree with the one conclusion you've drawn as well. Having players with proven track records makes a huge difference. From an outsiders viewpoint, it never seems a 'nice' thing to do to start up a new game, but limit it purely to players who are 'known', and who have a reputation for always staying around for the long haul, and who don't drop out just because they are attacked. But for this type of game, and especially for good hard fought games, it is an essential ingredient.

[Zeldor]

I think that:

1. That map is bad for MP, not matter what you do and not matter how much you like it [I really like it]
2. It is even much much worse for RAND game [corners and borders give way more advantage without diplomacy]
3. We have too many players for RAND game.
4. Too big skill difference, either no vets at all, or mostly vets.

[TheDemon]

You know what, I kind of disagree that anything went badly this game. Having a game go to turn 38 without anyone going AI is a huge accomplishment, and while we had one person "give up at the first sign of defeat", I think that the rules laid down for this game have been hugely sucessful at preventing dropouts.

[Baalz]

Well, I do think perhaps this is a bit unfair to say that Dragar quit at the first sign of defeat. Only he's really in a position to say but maybe he's lost his pretender and all his mages. Maybe his castles are all sieged. He's certainly lost almost all his provinces and some big fights, and apparently made the call that Man is crushed...we obviously wouldn't ever find a sub for this position. Sticking it out is one thing, but it's hardly like he just abandoned a nation leaving a big power gap. Believe me, I'll be the first one to get annoyed at people ditching a game leaving a largish nation for all their neighbors to gobble up - but Man had 1 province left when he dropped.

[Calahan]

You know what, I kind of disagree that anything went badly this game. Having a game go to turn 38 without anyone going AI is a huge accomplishment, and while we had one person "give up at the first sign of defeat", I think that the rules laid down for this game have been hugely successful at preventing dropouts.
I agree.

I personally think this game has been a great success, and certainly the most competitive all-round I've ever played in. I split the credit for this between the game rules and WingedDog's great efforts to find subs. As without the latter we would have lost quite a few nations already by now.

But 37/38 turns without the AI appearing smashes my previous record on that front to pieces. This is even more impressive when you compare this to a game like Legends of Faerun, where about 1/4 of the players had been lost by turn 25. Although that's an unfair comparison, as you have to factor in the Baalz's +17 curse aura when talking about the drop-outs in Legends.


It will be very hard to get a game where all the players are evenly matched skill wise, as even amongst vets and noobs the skill levels vary quite a bit I think. And nation pick will be critical in this factor as well. The only way I can see it happening is in blitz games of 4-5 players, but they are less fun to play IMO. But apart from the recent Man incident, I don't think any war in this game has been won cheaply so far (indeed, most of the 'wins' haven't even been 'won' yet).

I personally think that any game, regardless of map or players, can be resonably balanced and hard fought as long as each player fights until the bitter end. And the end as in the 'proper' end, not just the point where a player decides they can no longer 'win' the game or war, so start flicking the 'Bail-Out' switch. As mentioned above by Agema, something like barricading yourself in your capital and summoning anything and everything to keep the walls up can have a dramatic effect on the game, and can sometimes add 10+ turns to a conquerors invasion timetable.


One of the most unbalancing things for games IMO is when a player takes a hopeless 'I'm going to lose, so may as well throw everything at them to try and break the siege' approach. Since that is effectively what the AI does nine times out of ten, and one of the main reasons AI's appearing unbalances games so much. The result of this action is mostly always that the sieging army captures the fort many turns quicker than is should have done, and probably for far less casualties as well.

But I think many players just see this convenient kamikaze option as the quickest way out of a game they are losing, since they can easily justify going AI if they've just had all their troops killed. Which is a decision they themselves, not their opponent, decided to take. Empty forts are pretty easy to capture by all acounts, and I don't recall the soldiers at Rorke's Drift (as one of many examples) charging out to meet their enemies when they appeared at the gates.

Going down in a 'Blaze of Glory' may appear to be a fun way to die, but it is never a good thing for game balance IMO. And it's pretty illogical to me that when your enemy asks "Please can you come out of your fort so we can kill you all?" you respond "Ok, I'll be right there".

[Zeldor]

I'd really like to prove you wrong, but can't. I'd have to go AI to write more :P

Anyway, Man didn't lose anything, looking on graphs. Just some provs to raiders, no armies lost, pretender still alive, gem income really bug, research going well... Anyway, just stating my opinion.

RAND is a really interesting game. Much much more interesting map [even with unbalanced positions], big tension, really interesting development.

[Calahan]

Well, I do think perhaps this is a bit unfair to say that Dragar quit at the first sign of defeat. Only he's really in a position to say but maybe he's lost his pretender and all his mages. Maybe his castles are all sieged. He's certainly lost almost all his provinces and some big fights, and apparently made the call that Man is crushed...we obviously wouldn't ever find a sub for this position. Sticking it out is one thing, but it's hardly like he just abandoned a nation leaving a big power gap. Believe me, I'll be the first one to get annoyed at people ditching a game leaving a largish nation for all their neighbors to gobble up - but Man had 1 province left when he dropped.
That may be true, but the graphs show Man were still researching when Drager went AI, so there must have been access to both mages and labs. And mages and labs mean you can summon stuff, forge stuff, and maybe good stuff as well considering Man are riding high on the research graph. And as Agema pointed out, with Mother Oak and Gift Health up, Man could easily have pumped a load of Nature gems into stuffing their two forts full of summoned creatures. Serpents, Dryads, Lions, Animals Hordes etc. All would have slowed their foe(s) down a bit, if not a lot. Every little helps as they say.

I'd love to give Drager the benefit of the doubt, but at first sight it looks like an early bail to me. Also consider that Caelum were certainly in a worse positon by all accounts when the Caelum player bailed, but WingedDog worked his magic to find a sub for them. That was several turns ago now, and Caelum are still with us. And at this stage I'd put money on Caelum outlasting Man as well. No position is ever hopeless enough to give it to the AI IMO. As even scripting one mage to cast one useful spell means doing more than the AI ever would.

[Calahan]

I'd really like to prove you wrong, but can't. I'd have to go AI to write more :P.
I look forward to hearing your views :) Although definitely once the game is over (Two AI's are two too many), or one of us has been eliminated.

Anyway, Man didn't lose anything, looking on graphs. Just some provs to raiders, no armies lost, pretender still alive, gem income really bug, research going well... Anyway, just stating my opinion.
Spot on.

RAND is a really interesting game. Much much more interesting map [even with unbalanced positions], big tension, really interesting development.
Yes Pasha's RAND is getting interesting. One or two nations didn't seem to get out of the blocks properly though, so maybe not a good example of an evenly balanced game. And quite a bit of difference in nation strength as well IMO, so again maybe not the best of examples if talking about balance (although guessing you're not given your 'unbalanced positions' quote)

[Baalz]

I'd really like to prove you wrong, but can't. I'd have to go AI to write more :P

Heheh, I'm really enjoying this game, but I have several occasions where game events really, really called for some good trash talking/bragging/threatening/complaining/begging (being ambiguous to avoid being booted ;)). Ah well, guess you can't have it all at the same time. :)

But don't worry Zeldor, I'm coming for you next so you can talk all you want soon enough. Or maybe I'm already invading you, so hard to tell...

[Executor]

Nation/player list updated.
Turn 38 and only 3 nations dead, if I weren't in this game I'd say nobody is fighting however that couldn't be further from the truth.

One more thing, If you decide your situation is hopeless don't turn AI, at least inform the admin about it so a sub could be found.

[Agema]

Man should be able to fight back. They could retake provinces with armies to keep their castles and a few other provinces active for upkeep and recruitment. They may be limited for anti-thug thugging. They may be able to kit out mothers as just about adequate stealthy thugs against weak-moderate PD. They should have a ton of N3-capable mages and - with good research - access to Charm pretty quickly: pin the thugs down with troops or summoned chaff like swarm, and they'd fail an MR check eventually.

[Zeldor]

Calahan:

Hmm... dunno, true maybe for Agartha. Hard to say about Caelum, we have to wait till they are dead to know more. Some nations that theoretically had small chances of survival [Ulm, Marverni], are in not so bad shape. Some nations have unfair advantage for sure. Sauro and Vanheim mostly, both getting just 2 neighbours, while Marverni getting 3, Ulm 4, Ermor 4...

[Executor]

Ermor had 1 neighbor.
My birds see everything.

[Calahan]

Calahan:

Hmm... dunno, true maybe for Agartha. Hard to say about Caelum, we have to wait till they are dead to know more. Some nations that theoretically had small chances of survival [Ulm, Marverni], are in not so bad shape. Some nations have unfair advantage for sure. Sauro and Vanheim mostly, both getting just 2 neighbours, while Marverni getting 3, Ulm 4, Ermor 4...
Yes, hard to know exactly what is going on, or went on in Pasha's RAND, as each nation is sure to have it's own tale to tell. With each one being quite interesting to hear as well I'd imagine. Enjoying playing in the game, but also looking forward to it ending in some senses (although that's ages away) just to hear the players thoughts :)

[Zeldor]

Executor:

In RAND, not here :)

[Executor]

Executor:

In RAND, not here :)

:) errr, I knew that... :):):)

[Zeldor]

Anyway, my issue is that many players seem to be ignorant, blind or trying to play a different game that others. When big player gets bigger, it is obvious that he will be unstoppable soon. If it's no diplo-game and there are some nations with thugs [better if they are teleportable], you may be sure that you are on the hit list. So attacking him now, when he is busy with someone else, is the only viable strategy. That's why there are vet only or invite-only games. So you can be [almost] sure that people will play to win or at least to try and achieve smth. Not just do some lame decisions and ignore the game.

And I think that game is going in that direction. And few others too. And I know perfectly well that winning without people trying to stop me is not fun at all. And is not worth much. So if it's true for that game, I will just switch to AI and look for more interesting game, probably some of QMs invite games.

[Baalz]

Zeldor, maybe I'm misreading your post, but it just really rubbed me the wrong way. Did you just say that the other players in this game are not playing their nations how you want them to so you're taking your ball and going home? The whole fricking point of a no diplomacy anonymous game is to limit the dogpile on whoever is currently leading, it seems petulant to complain that is how it plays and asinine to throw the whole game in a lurch because of your pouting. If I misunderstood what you meant then I apologize, but if not...I'll just say I think you're behaving very poorly.

[Zeldor]

I don't think you got it really right :) I just said that everyone should play to either try to win or to not make it too easy for someone else. A bit like what you are looking for with good player's pledge :)

[Baalz]

Ok, let me phrase this a different way then, I've just had 3 games in rapid succession get seriously compromised by people abandoning/going AI so please don't do that.

[Zeldor]

Ok, I will stick with it :) I think I need to get some action going then.

[Executor]

WingedDog will be unavailable from 5-10 August.
I will be stepping in to help with the admin duties, please direct any delays and sub request from that period to me.

[WingedDog]

Yes, thanks, Executor. I was about to post about it.

As for the other games I'm in - I think I would be able to handle them, it's not the first time I have a business trip while playing dominions. This time things are more complicated though - the distance I need to travel is 1700 kilometers and I'll go by car. I'll take a notebook and I can access internet via mobile, so I would be able to send my turns, but unable to appear online often enough to handle delay requests.

[WingedDog]

From now on Execuor is in charge and should be contacted for delay requests.

[Executor]

Game delayed by 24 hours as requested.

[Zeldor]

Ok. I will turn my nation AI. I have better things to do and I will let noobs play with noobs. I will switch to invite only games mostly, at least people try there. Congrats to Eriu on winning that game. Not that simply getting into game where everyone is not willing to fight at all was a big challenge :P

[Executor]

Yeah, fight you bunch of slackers!
So, who were you again Zeldor? And who was Shinuyama? It's hard being the admin and not knowing the players...

[Stretch]

I subbed into this game for Shinuyama so that that nation would fight to the bitter end. I gave it all I had, but the armies of my oppressors were too great, although I got myself many escorts in my journey to the land of the dead. In the end, my cyclops pretender could not be brought down, but died while retreating. If only it had been possible to limp back to the mages and start wreaking havoc... ahh well, good fight!

Zeldor... joining a RAND/no diplomacy game, then crying when people don't gangbang the #1 guy, then naming him publicly, calling everyone else noobs, and turning AI when people are making serious efforts to make sure that no one goes AI? You'd better hope that no one running your 'invite only' games sees this thread. Stay classy.

As it seems to be my role to sub to keep a nation in this game from going AI and giving someone an easy cap, I can take over whatever nation Zeldor is attempting to vacate, if it's still possible. I don't promise to light the sky up, but I can keep it from being a complete pushover.

[Zeldor]

Nah, my nation was not a complete pushover. I asked for a sub like 30 turns ago and there were not good volunteers. Only one possible recently, who'd not cope with problems.

And yeah, I can tell what I think. People know that I can fight till the end [like only my cap left in Faerun] and I'm just stating facts, not crying. I'm simply not going to participate in that. And those who create invite-only games make them because they don't want to see things that happen here.

P.S. It's not about banging on number 1 guy, it's about common sense :) I love RAND as people there know the game, can read score graphs, can use scotus and make decisions based on that. Decisions that will be good for them.

You will know my nation after that turn, I don't need to make it easier for anyone by saying which nation is going AI :)

[Isokron]

Since Abysia imho is the strongest nation in the game while Zeldor continue to rail against Eriu I will presume that he is playing Abysia himself.

In that case I must ask him why he doesn't use all the archdevils + heliographus + artifacts etc that he has to attack Eriu himself.

[Executor]

There's something wrong with folks playing here. I've never seen a slower game. Turn 47 and only 3 out of 16 nations are killed?

[Calahan]

Ok. I will turn my nation AI. I have better things to do and I will let noobs play with noobs. I will switch to invite only games mostly, at least people try there. Congrats to Eriu on winning that game. Not that simply getting into game where everyone is not willing to fight at all was a big challenge :P
Zeldor, I find so many things wrong about your post, and indeed slightly offensive, that I don't even know where to begin.

Firstly, thanks for breaking the Rules of a RAND game by basically declaring your nation and hinting at the gangbanging of another nation. Many players are enjoying this game, even if you are not, so I for one would appreciate it if your didn't attempt to diminish and de-rail the game for everyone else.


Secondly, how can you accuse players of not trying? I know I am trying, trying hard. And my scouts are reporting back to me that all the other players seem to be trying hard as well. Or is your comment in reference to players 'not trying' to prevent someone winning. In your supposed case, Eriu. And everyone seems to be fighting as well, just not fighting the nation you want them to, or you think they should be. Given all the wars that have gone on, your claim that players are not willing to fight is almost as absurd as saying they are not trying. Or is the complaint about players not fighting the nation you perceive to be the biggest threat (because of course only your opinion of which nation is the biggest threat is the correct one)

But what do you want players to do exactly. Give up on, and risk possibly losing their own current war just to attack someone else? While simultaneously managing to transmit a subliminal message to their current opponent saying 'Can we stop our war now please so that I can attack someone else'. And what about nations who don't border the correct nation, what do you want them to do? Do you want them to make a bee-line for them, and hope the nations whose territory they would have to take to get to them just 'happen to understand' that they were only being attacked because their provinces were in they way of the nation they were really attacking? Maybe several nations are going to launch new attacks in the coming turns. Who knows. Well obviously you with your precognitive abilities, since you are claiming everyone is just going to stand around idly and let one nation win without a fight.

I do actually agree with you on many of the opinions you've voiced regarding how a lot of players don't always know how to play larger scale games properly. As more often than not players do nothing to stop one or two nations becoming incredibly powerful, but you of all people should know a RAND game is different, and ganging on leading nations is a hell of a lot tougher than in games with diplomacy. It does require more skill and experience in 'reading' the game, but this actually brings me nicely onto my third point.............


Thirdly, since when have Eriu clearly been the top nation to congratulate them on winning? Unless I've been playing the wrong game for 47 turns, it appears to me there are at least two or three other nations doing just as well, if not better than Eriu. And another two or three nations closely following behind them. I'd actually put Eriu's (apparent) opponent up just as high as Eriu. Given that they have the Well of Misery, a huge level of research, and easy access to multiple high level death mages. And if the C'tis player can't do something with all that lot to make Eriu's life a living hell, then they need shooting. Although if they can't, then I would agree with your assessment of at least one player in the game being a complete noob. ie. The C'tis player.


For me, there are no signs at all of a clear leader yet in this game, which I'm hoping is largely because the AI's have to the greater part been kept out of this game, meaning that taking a nation's scalp is being made as difficult as it is supposed to be. (O/T. This would also give evidence to my belief that players turning AI completely ruins games, and keeping AI's out leads to far more enjoyable, and more competitive games all round).

So as far as I can tell Zeldor, you are complaining that Eriu are doing what Eriu do best. Raiding. Which for me is the equivalent of complaining about Mictlan recruiting Jag warriors. That's what Mictlan does best. What should we complain about next? Abysia blood hunting. Or maybe Ermor reanimating? I know, Marignon are not allowed to summon any angels, because if they do I will complain like hell and declare them the winner.

Eriu have gained the upper hand in both their previous wars against Man and Caelum by mass raiding, which is pretty obvious both from the graphs, and from having some knowledge of Eriu as a nation. And this will always be a feature of any war with Eriu. Will this lead them to victory over C'tis? Only further turns will tell us that. But it appears to me that C'tis started the war against Eriu, so it's up to them to handle the consequences of their actions as well.


Also, if your misgivings about how the course this game has run, or is running, possibly because nobody has yet come to the aid of C'tis against Eriu, then have you considered players don't actually want C'tis around? They are a far more dangerous nation in the long run than Eriu IMO, and living next door to the Miasma isn't always a fun experience. So calling everyone a noob just because they are, by appearance, not helping C'tis is way out of line. Maybe some are actually cheering for Eriu, as they'd much rather fight them in the late game than C'tis. Also consider that the Eriu - C'tis war is only a few turns old. So to expect a third nation to enter that war at the drop of a hat, in a RAND game, is probably asking a bit much.

So before you make any blanket statements again Zeldor, please pause for a moment to think that maybe, just maybe, just this one time, you don't know everything that's going on in a game of Dominions.


And can I ask you to please have some consideration for the players who are enjoying the game before saying things, like revealing who's playing which nation. Or doing things, like turning yourself AI, that will only serve to spoil the game for everyone. If you wish to leave the game then I fully entrust WingedDog and Executor to find a sub for you. Maybe the sub won't be as good as you, given your vast experience and knowledge of the game, but they will certainly be better than the AI, and maybe also keener to play in such an enjoyable game than you currently seem to be.

All players deserve enough respect so that no individual players actions should be the cause of ruining their games. Be they a noob or a vet. A star player or a complete incompetent. The members on these forums are nowhere near equal as players (in ability), but they should all be treated equal as people.


ps. Zeldor, I also wouldn't say Pasha's RAND game is so well balanced, and 'being played better by all' either. As there seems to be a few nations there who are pulling well away from the others. And as yet I don't see any 'in-built vet instinct' kicking in that's stopping it from happening. Some nations also appear to have hardly been involved in any fighting all game. So are they not trying, or not fighting as well? Are you voicing similar complaints in their direction? Or are you one of the nations happily turtling away, so there you are happy that nothing is being done about it.

And to me Pasha's RAND game also has a lot more clear leaders in it than this game does. So there it's a lot easier, and more obvious, which nations should be brought down a peg or two. Not that any of that has happened yet, since other nations are wrapped up in, or recovering from their own wars. Exactly like what is happening in this game.

I am enjoying that game like I am enjoying this one, but I see nothing 'superior' about it, and see no big difference between them in terms of how they are currently being played.

[Calahan]

There's something wrong with folks playing here. I've never seen a slower game. Turn 47 and only 3 out of 16 nations are killed?
I put that down to purely the fact that only two nations (Man+Pan) have so far gone AI in this game. When the AI takes over, you can put good money on the fact that they'll break any sieges taking places, lose all thier troops as a result, leaving their enemies with a simple walkover.

But if a human player bunkers down it their forts, it can easily take 10-20+ turns to finish them off. Sometimes it's not even worth trying to storm the forts, as it's easier to dom-kill them than risk heavy loses. Only 3 nations have been knocked out, but there are another two or three that are on the verge.

And I'd actually say that there is 'something wrong' with the games that have lots of casualties before mid-game, and that it is actually this game that is the normal one. Problem is that the vast majority of games have lots of early casualties due to the common, and toxic mix of AI-turning and high newbiecide rate. So it just 'appears' that things are not normal in this game because there are so many nations in it fighting to the last.

This should be credited to all the players who have stuck it out (and shame to the ones who bailed) and all the subs who have come in to put up the last ditch fights. The latter deserve huge thanks and credit in my books. (and of course thanks again to WingedDog for doing the work to find them)

[Executor]

Not necessarily correct, the absence of AI's does provides a much more enjoyable and harder conquest but that still doesn't change my mind about this being a slower game. Normally I'm used to seeing a few nation killed in the first 20-30 turns due to rushes, with or without AI's, hell I always try to rush someone as soon as I can, didn't seem to work here doe.:)

I still feel that 3 nations dead is a slow kill rate, especially since there are some great players here.
And take a look at Yarg, turn 20, two players dead, and there are some on the verge as well, and I think they're all fighting it out.

[Calahan]

And take a look at Yarg, turn 20, two players dead, and there are some on the verge as well, and I think they're all fighting it out.
True, but YARG had bullseye marked capitals, which helps no end in directing rush nations to their nearest target.

Edit: YARG also had a lot more early stalers as well, which has also helped identify 'weak' targets to attack.

[Executor]

Yeah, I suppose it does help.

[Executor]

A sub has been found to take over Zeldors nation for the moment to keep the nations from stalieng, however this is only a temporary situation until I menage to find a full time sub to take over.

[Executor]

Wow, that was a fast sub hunt!
It appears we've found a permanent sub to step in instead of Zeldor.

[Stretch]

Great! Hopefully people will continue to let you know if they fail a morale check for this game, instead of just clicking AI. Although I also hope that people will just stick it out and try their hardest, too.

[Baalz]

Zeldor, it's also in stellar bad taste to denigrate the effort of not only the Eriu player but also every person he's fought. No "wow, impressive performance", instead it's "Lolz, he's only winning by the good luck of having terrible opponents. You guys are all lame, everyone but me is a loser who doesn't know how to play so I'm quitting.". You've at best got a very spotty idea of any maneuvers and counters tried in wars you're not involved in, and there are some pretty good players in this game - it's astoundingly arrogant to claim nobody is even trying. Your behavior in this game has been atrocious enough to earn you a spot on my very short ban list. Not that I expect this to be a terribly devastating announcement, I'm just letting you know now not to try and join any games I'm hosting. You're right that the reason people make invite only games is because they don't want to see stuff that happened in this game - namely your behavior.

[TheDemon]

I thought the whole point of the "No Diplo" part of RAND games was so players DID have a chance to fight a whole bunch of 1 vs 1 wars and to avoid dogpiling. And as it stands, the graphs show that there are a bunch of players more or less equal, and no clear leader. That's all everyone is able to tell from public intel anyway.

[Sambo]

Wow, quite the controversy. Some perspective from a noob:


Congratulating Eriu for winning is like congratulating the tallest third grader in a school on making the NBA. Better chance, yes. Guaranteed? Naaaa.
I'm having fun, a lot of it! Thanks to everyone I have fought, or stared at suspiciously over our borders.
Thanks to all the previous, current, and future subs for keeping the game interesting (and especially the admins for finding them!)


Also, a quick message to my neighbour: prepare to die. You know who you are.

[Trumanator]

As an outsider, I'd just like to thank Calahan for pointing out to me the major difference between fighting to the very end and going AI, namely the AI's habit of suiciding out of all its forts. I have been watching my brother's performance in Cripple Fight, and though Arco has been essentially irrelavant since around turn 35, tgbob stuck through it and managed to survive and tie up his resources till turn 60! That has probably made a huge difference by preventing him from eliminating any other nations. This really throws into perspective for me the importance of fighting to the last. Thanks to Calahan and tgbob for teaching me this.

[Calahan]

As an outsider, I'd just like to thank Calahan for pointing out to me the major difference between fighting to the very end and going AI, namely the AI's habit of suiciding out of all its forts. I have been watching my brother's performance in Cripple Fight, and though Arco has been essentially irrelavant since around turn 35, tgbob stuck through it and managed to survive and tie up his resources till turn 60! That has probably made a huge difference by preventing him from eliminating any other nations. This really throws into perspective for me the importance of fighting to the last. Thanks to Calahan and tgbob for teaching me this.
My thanks should go to you then Trumanator for observing, listening and learning, just what a huge difference not going AI really does make. I wish more players could be enlightened :angel

And the best way you can thank me (and tgbob) in return is by adopting a stead-fast "never turn-AI policy". As anyone who plays with that great attitude is more than welcome to play in any future games that I organise :)

[Zeldor]

Baalz:

Yeah, you are probably right. Instead of talking too much here I should have just turned AI 10 turns ago, without saying anything.

[Agema]

Well, I dare say merely disrespecting your fellow players by quitting in a tantrum is a marginal improvement over disrespecting your fellow players by spoiling the RAND rules and insulting them all as well.

When you don't know what problems other people are struggling with or what they are preparing to do, you've got no right deciding they are making bad strategic choices.

[WingedDog]

I have just returned from my trip, it took some time to read through the thread. Zeldor's behaviour is unexeptable, and I hope nobody else playing this game is going to copy it. I'm repeting myself, but the best thing you can do if the interest for the game is lost - is to inform admin about it. Breaking the rules of the game you signed for, or throwing iunsubstantiated insults at other players neither adds you a credit as a good player nor increaces community reputation. IMO Executor had solved the situation the best way it could be solved.

Executor
I have another trip 14-23 August, would you be able to administrate the game again? From what I heard you did great job so far.

[Executor]

Yeah, I'm here.

[Calahan]

Can I ask who the original Caelum and Shinuyama players were? Since both have now been eliminated.

[statttis]

I was Caelum. I think the score graphs show pretty well what happened to me :hurt:. Congrats to Eriu on a perfectly timed attack.

[Stretch]

I was Shinuyama for the last 8 turns or so (once they had been reduced to 6 or 7 provinces).

[WingedDog]

Shinuyama was ruled originly by Cerlin, until turn 37.

[Calahan]

thanks WingedDog. Confused me for a moment as I couldn't see any 'Cerlin' signed up for this game. But then I traced your 'Hot Swap' post for the answers.

[Agema]

I'm enjoying this game, mostly. Looking at the graphs alone, without any information from what my scouts know...

I don't see Eriu as a clear leader. It's inconceivable that Abysia and Marignon don't have major firepower with their research and plentiful teritory. Below that, Mictlan and Atlantis still seem pretty handy. C'tis, Vanheim, Ermor, Agartha, Oceania are all in various stages of relative weakness or trouble but capable of still being a significant factor, and then there's Machaka and Man almost dead. Your money would be on one of the big three, but depending on how a large war or three went, one of the weaker nations could come into play as well.