Setsumi - Come for the game, stay for the drama!

[Micah]

Kuritza,

I didn't know about any of your dealings with Zeldor in PMs, so I may have misspoke WRT your offers of compromise. I only had what you had written in the forums to judge by, so the full magnitude of your efforts was not apparent. I may certainly have misjudged your willingness to compromise since I didn't have all of the information. If so, I retract my statements upon hearing of the additional information.

I also didn't mean for my commentary about your position to imply that you had gotten there by cheating or any other "unfair" method, just that your ascension to the top wasn't based on in-game play, but rather through an out-of-game situation. You've actually done an excellent job with LA man to get to a very solid 1st/2nd place position (depending on how one weights research and gem income versus what Ermor has) but having your main rival triple-stale has nothing to do with your skill, hence my comment. It was not meant to come across as an insult of your play thus far in the game.

Besides, I'm not in the game and I'll be happy to take my leave of posting in the thread if this gets sorted out, so you needn't worry about me once things get rolling again.

[Executor]

Things won't get rolling again.
I'm confident no one is willing to compromise or let go here, and that no solution will be found.
Here's how I see it, either Zeldor will accept the stales and get the game rollin' or not and the game will end.
I was in an almost exact situation myself, and I had to deal with 8 stales in a row.

[Zeldor]

Well, I surely was pissed in the beginning, when I came back and many uncool things piled up. I must admit that my early statements were not fair, especially towards Man. I was leaving with unfounded belief that game will end and when I got back, everything was in chaos. My request for full rollback would surely not be fair.

So I apologise Kuritza for trying to make him also hurt for my bad luck. I hope we can get bad statements from both sides a part of past and get things solved on battlefield :) It's still interesting if game will be won by forces of evil [Ermor or R'lyeh] or forces of evil [well, Marignon is kinda evil] or by black horse of light side - Man :) Oh, and Utgard can surely have it's role here.

[Kuritza]

Just what I meant. Usually, people just deal with such things.
But this game was already rolled 2 turns back, so its late to make compromises. I just want to know if anyone really, really wants to continue. If not, let host close it. I am not in the mood to continue.

[Zeldor]

Sure, after 53 turns played I'd surely want to get the game finished, not just abandoned at that point. And I hope that others feel the same.

P.S. Nice Ice Devil :)

[llamabeast]

Hello. Do we still have a problem with a "stolen" admin password? I'm afraid I can't help for a couple of weeks (still can't log into my server) - sorry!

[Zeldor]

Nope, we don't.

[Quitti]

If we are happy now, will we continue?

[binarysolo]

Wow, this is a drama-filled game.

Made slightly more amusing that an anime dork hijacked the admin position and wrote a Fate/stay Night parody on it. O_o

[Zeldor]

So are we going to continue? It's just redoing of 1 turn for everyone but me [1 was staled by me], you can even not submit turn that turn, as it is already on llamaserver. So just redoing next turn. I'd be a shame to quit a game at that point.

[Kuritza]

Dunno. I'd still prefer to close it. But if everyone continues, so do I.

[SciencePro]

Made slightly more amusing that an anime dork hijacked the admin position and wrote a Fate/stay Night parody on it. O_o

I think that reference went over my head.

on the subject of the game - i'm not quitting. If anyone still wants to quit, my previous offer stands: I will be happy to take all of your stuff.

[Quitti]

So - shall we continue this or?

[Isokron]

I will continue if everyone else does.

[Quitti]

Well, on we go then. I sent in my next turn - I hope other people will do so too.

[Zeldor]

Not a huge problem that turn - with rollbacks it keeps old turn files, even if it shows otherwise.

[Anthropos]

this is too much of a mess
i have set the ruins of Caelum to AI

good luck

bye for now
Anthropos

[Ossa]

I'm happy that this game goes on.
And though it wont be that easy this time with Ermor I'm looking forward to continue this crusade against the forces of Evil!

[chrispedersen]

Hey Ossa, please contact me!

[Kuritza]

Postpone it please.

[Ossa]

I dont want to whine constantly - but Ermor is now spamming my lands with Astral golems. Thats why I'm loosing ground like hell.

Consider this news from the frontline, which is surely going to come to you once I'm finished.

[SciencePro]

I've read mind duel works well against those.

[Kuritza]

Yep. Or you can try to randomly teleport your own golems on your lands to meet his golems.

Nevertheless, hold on there. :) I have already clashed with Ermor around Caelum's lands. Too bad he castled his whole territory so he is completely immune to raiding (talk about non-overpowered nations, hehe).

[Zeldor]

It's just overdramatising. What can I do with that Air Queens that suddenly appeared out of nowhere? How can I safely fort new provs, knowing what dangers are in the sky? Man even tried to harm one of my Golems, that was just not cool.

[Ossa]

Can I get a delay for 5 hours? Cant do my turn now from here and it took longer at work:/

[Zeldor]

Ossa:

Hut, a bit late for that, I see Juffos on IRC, will follow the request.


He seems to be AFK though... better get your turn in. Working on mine now.

[Juffos]

Hosting postponed. Would've missed that request without Zeldor's message, thank him.

[Kuritza]

You have forted majority of your lands already. Its like... 3 times more forts than anyone else? :) Or maybe 4? I dont know.
And between me and you and everyone else, there are many things one can do about Air Queens. :) I bet you know them all. But there is nearly nothing these Air Queens can do about your forts.

The drama, yep. But you can already smell victory, can't you? :)

[Zeldor]

Ossa:

Huh, you got so extremely extremely luck that turn...

[Ossa]

Yep.
Luckily I had a look at the combat results before watching that replay - otherwise I'd for sure have a heartattack.

Didnt know that the medusa shield is relying on beating the enemies MR.

For those who didnt watch:
I teleported my golem on top of one of his ones, and he profoundly beat me to a pulp until in the last round he was petrified when my troups were already routing:/

[Kuritza]

Helloes, gentlemen.

For the next two weeks, I will be on a vacation. I have a sub, but since this game is getting goddamn intense, I would like to ask you for a slower schedule. Like, one turn per week, for two weeks - hope its reasonable enough.

Thanks in advance!

[Zeldor]

No problem with me - I wouldn't object even to 2-week pause [as anyone subbing into position like that may find it really hard].

[Kuritza]

Yup, that would be ideal.

I may be able to submit a turn per week myself - I'll take a notebook with me. Just cant guarantee that. And since our host is not playing himself... lets hear what others say.

[SciencePro]

Maybe go to a one-week interval for just the next two weeks then go back to 72 hours after that?

[Quitti]

I don't mind going slower for a while if it means important players play better :)

[Zeldor]

1.7mb turn file... that's huge.

46 battles. Some really bad, some really great. Kuritza will be really unhappy when he sees one :)

[Ossa]

I'm officially done and dead - Ermors attack broke my neck. I'm setting to ai.

[Isokron]

Maybe this is getting a bit repetitive but at least I haven't said it before.

With Marignon going AI maybe we should end the game and declare Zeldor the winner ?

[Kuritza]

Maybe had Utgard and Rlyeh moved against Ermor, this game wouldnt be so sadly one-sided?
Maybe if they will wake up now (at last) we will still have a chance to revive this sad game?

So far, this game followed the most stupid scenario in whole Dominions: LA Ermor is surrounded by new/staling players, he absorbs them one by one, everyone thinks 'its OK because I will get some leftovers now, and then we'll unite'. 'THEN' it turns out that Ermor has grown too strong and everyone says 'oh I wont win anyway, so why should I care, I'll keep turtling'.
Really, Baaltz should mention such things in his 'players pledge'.

P.S.
Cant say I am surprised about the death of my SCs. 'What can poor Ermor with his weak chaff do against teleporting Air Queens', right? :) Repeatedly teleporting SCs are very vulnerable. Too bad they didnt even inflict any casualties on you over this whole time. Just some 'useless freespawn'.
But at least they staled your advance for a few turns, and now I am one castle closer to your deadlands. I hope to prove a very unpleasant (read: challenging) neighbour yet. Alas, it wont be enough...

I'm really annoyed, to be honest. This is one of my best games - I took a rather limited nation and expanded into everything, getting a position that would be considered very powerful in any other game. But it wont change anything in Setsumi because of the stupid, stupid, stupid metagame.
Sigh.

P.P.S.

Just in case... if I didnt make myself clear enough: no, dont end this game now, goddamnit.

[Frozen Lama]

Jumping completely into this thread without any right to be here, but Kuritza, i totally know how you feel. I did almost the same thing in Ruby, and took the weak nation of LA atlantis to a very powerful position, and then got screwed over since no one wanted to gang up against Ermor, and the third most powerful nation (besides myself and ermor) allied with ermor to kill Mari.

you have explained perfectly why i firmly believe LA ermor shouldn't be in any games. not because they are so invincible when playing with players who are aware of what LA ermor is like, but because in every game, you get nations/players who just don't care. Not to insult any of the players in this game, but it happens.

[Quitti]

Maybe had Utgard and Rlyeh moved against Ermor, this game wouldnt be so sadly one-sided?
Maybe if they will wake up now (at last) we will still have a chance to revive this sad game?


I haven't been in the race for the top position for ages. This means that I'm not competing for the top position, and I'm either
a) Trying to learn from the experience
and
b) Not play to give "easy" victory to anyone (ie. You or zeldor, Marignon is out of the question now).
or
c) Playing little into the top nation(s) game by not attacking one of them, and doing whatever I do.

Should I put all my forces against Ermor, It might give you a cheap edge on the battlefields on the other side of the map to simply gobble up while Ermor is distracted in destroying me. Should I attack you, Ermor would probably gobble you up. So I'd very much like to see you two hit each other, no matter the result. The better player/nation wins. Simple as that. Of course if you can offer me something that will make me one of the top nations by attacking Ermor, sure, why not. Can you make one? Can Ermor make one? Which of you makes a better offer first? Does neither offer me anything? "Ermor not winning the game" is not enough for me. One nation will win the game, period. Top contenders are Man and Ermor from what I see.


So far, this game followed the most stupid scenario in whole Dominions: LA Ermor is surrounded by new/staling players, he absorbs them one by one, everyone thinks 'its OK because I will get some leftovers now, and then we'll unite'. 'THEN' it turns out that Ermor has grown too strong and everyone says 'oh I wont win anyway, so why should I care, I'll keep turtling'.
Really, Baaltz should mention such things in his 'players pledge'.


That shows that Zeldor has been succesfully diplomatic in whatever he's doing. Divide and conquer, as someone said a long time ago, supposedly.


P.S.
Cant say I am surprised about the death of my SCs. 'What can poor Ermor with his weak chaff do against teleporting Air Queens', right? :) Repeatedly teleporting SCs are very vulnerable. Too bad they didnt even inflict any casualties on you over this whole time. Just some 'useless freespawn'.
But at least they staled your advance for a few turns, and now I am one castle closer to your deadlands. I hope to prove a very unpleasant (read: challenging) neighbour yet. Alas, it wont be enough...

I'm really annoyed, to be honest. This is one of my best games - I took a rather limited nation and expanded into everything, getting a position that would be considered very powerful in any other game. But it wont change anything in Setsumi because of the stupid, stupid, stupid metagame.
Sigh.

P.P.S.

Just in case... if I didnt make myself clear enough: no, dont end this game now, goddamnit.

Just a pointer, diplomacy is part of the game. Doing awesomely well with your nation, which you claim/seem to have done, is not the whole game. I admit that I'd be very frustrated in your position too.

At this point I'm in for the ride along. I acknowledge that I should have attacked Ermor before I attacked Patala, but Patala was a very weak nation whom I just gobbled up. After that we had some disagreements with Mictlan, which ended up into me and Abysia pretty much gobbling Mictlan up, at which point I didn't have sufficient power to go against Ermor. I know Marignon was attacking him then, but nothing else. The situation hasn't changed that much now, except that Marignon decided to go AI, for losing SC's/mages, and not sticking around with this royal piece of steaming... excrement. Which a good player should've done. Now Ermor/Man/Abysia/me/whoever can waltz in and take his provinces that are not taken already. I admit that I don't have much intelligence with how much Marignon has left, but I'm betting he would have still had something up his sleeve.

Just my 2p. Thanks.

[SciencePro]

Kuritza: if you want to work together with someone diplomatically you would probably have a lot more success making constructive suggestions on PM instead of just whining and criticizing people on the forum thread.

Llama: Ermor may be overpowered but as long as people realize it is overpowered and adjust their plans accordingly the game won't be unbalanced. In fact, I suspect that the perception of ermor's overpoweredness is greater than their actual power which is a net liability.

Zeldor's sucess in this game so far has everything to do with his diplomatic/social game and very little to do with any inherent power of ermor.

[Zeldor]

Is someone trying to blame me that I am trying to win?

I personally think that I should not be so big and strong. But many people let me grow and didn't try to stop me. I think that some underplayed [thx for suiciding that 2 air queens, Kuritza, I had no idea how to get rid of them]. I won't tell what some people did wrong as I don't want to have suddenly my enemies start using good strats.

Kuritza surely did a great job at making Man really strong [but maybe he was just lucky and got weak neighbours that let him? we can say that every time against every major power]. But I don't understand the disappointment that other players don't want to help you win. I am fighting Marignon, you and Abysia [+ some minor nations]. No one is helping me. You are all bigger than me, have much bigger income and gem income, not even mentioning my pathetic research. Why would anyone want to help nation with great research, tartarians, hordes of lamia queens [you got discount site or what? :P], globals, etc. If R'lyeh can defeat someone later it's hordes of undead, not tartarians.

Anyway, I'm going to do my best and keep on fighting. Man has nice armies to annihilate [Abysia too :P].

[Ossa]

"The situation hasn't changed that much now, except that Marignon decided to go AI, for losing SC's/mages, and not sticking around with this royal piece of steaming... excrement. Which a good player should've done."


I fear I simply dont understand this sentence entirely, Quitti. You suggest I should stick with the game and go down with my flags raised high, correct?


About the hidden secret weapons of Marignon I still have up my sleve, there are... none. I cant get enough gems to empower one single mage to cast a seraph. I cannot counter Ermors Golems running amok, as a) I have fewer than him b) I cannot waste my few astral boosters on mages to teleport in and mind war him - I have neither the cash nor the gem income. Mind hunt is also out of the question. The only mages capable of casting astral bolt are cap only, and if I loose all my province I cant afford them anyway.

I could stop Ermor's horde of undead with my priests, but now I cannot stop his SCs. Thanks to that metagame incident with Ryleth he openened two new fronts that put my capital directly into his line of fire. So, military wise, I'm done. I'm gonna ask Ermor for a NAP and some remaining provinces though (so I'm not going ai) so I can see the end of the game.


I'm just so frustrated because this was also my favorite game of the year until that thing with Ryleth happened - I just felt cheated. I've come over it though, but while we all saw Ermor growing stronger and stronger (and we all know who is going to win this game by now), noone took up the opportunity while he was low in research and engaged against my H3 priests to weaken him. Everyone (arco ;)?) just turtlered and waged their own petty wars.

Ermor even offered me a NAP (twice!), but I turned it down - just for the sake of the game, as I thought I would be the most potent player to stop him in the beginning. As there's hardly anything to gain from conquering Ermors provinces, I truly didnt do that to get the lead above the other players.

I just feel frustrated and let down, and now my armies are routed, my castles under siege and I cannot even slow his advance.



I dont blame Zeldor for anything - actually, he played a difficult (well, should be with sensible players) nation extremly well and his diplomatic skills at keeping everyone appeased won him this game.

[Quitti]

I fear I simply dont understand this sentence entirely, Quitti. You suggest I should stick with the game and go down with my flags raised high, correct?


Yes. Exactly what I meant. I don't mind if a player loses, but if he's about to lose and goes AI, it'll usually affect the game balance greatly compared to if he'd stay. I attempt to stay as long as I can make a difference compared to going AI nowadays.

[Kuritza]

Quitty, you just perfectly described the very behaviour that turns a 'very unbalanced' LA Ermor into a 'absulutely unbalanced' LA Ermor. You just cant 'mind your business' when there is LA Ermor in the game. If you do, you lose. But you dont care; too bad, because this ruined this game.
I didnt want you to fight Ermor to give ME an edge. I wanted you to join EVERYONES war against Ermor to try and stop him, and then see what you can do next. I already clashed with Ermor, so did Abyssia. Bite him from behind, do SOMETHING. Gosh, unite against me with other survivors when Ermor is down; do some thinking! If you dont want to win, if you dont want to even TRY, why do you even join games?!

... I wont join any more games with LA Ermor from now on. This nation is special, its mere presense requires people to react. They dont.

Science - you think I should PM and come up with constructive suggestions? THATS WHAT I WAS DOING SINCE THE START. Nobody gives a damn. Everyone is affraid of fighting Ermor, watching him grow. You even thwarted Marignon when he tried to stand against him. Then you said 'ok, lets fight Ermor now' and... did nothing. Thats why I dont try to rally anyone anymore and just directly blame clueless players for ruining this game.

Ossa - you did great. Respect. Just dont send unequipped sea troll Kings as mages anymore. :) It is a very good thug/SC chassis with proper items. One of my favourites mid-game SCs, actually.

Zeldor - you dont have a 'pathetic' research anymore. We have open graphs; your research is growing very rapidly. And no, no discount site. :( My discount site is called CBM 1.5; QM made Lamia Queens cheaper compared to vanilla game.

And yet, I am against finishing this game. I still have some aces in my sleeve. They are quite feeble against sheer imbalancedness of overfed LA Ermor, yet I'd like Zeldor to earn this victory, not just claim it by starting next to weak players.
Heck, there is a very slim chance my 'aces' will be enough.

And again, a side note to myself - never, ever join a game with LA Ermor and lots of new players anymore.

[Zeldor]

You probably have some points here, Kuritza, but I will repeat myself - many people playing me did not use their assets properly. LA Marignon should be able to win 1:1 war with LA Ermor. I'm not doing propaganda here, just saying my opinion. I was sure I'm not going to win that game long time ago. Hey, when Marignon attacked me I could do nothing to stop his progress, I lost lots of provs fast. And when people kept on saying "let's kill Ermor, he is uber" I would really happily agree to switch over with MArignon player, as I was sure that he can win the war. Now Mari is for sure too weak and I got some tools to play with.

I had same feeling about LA Ermor when I was joining here, but now I think they are not as powerful. So if you want to join anotehr LA game, pick Ermor and I can join as other nation and we can see who is right :)

[SciencePro]

Science - you think I should PM and come up with constructive suggestions? THATS WHAT I WAS DOING SINCE THE START. Nobody gives a damn. Everyone is affraid of fighting Ermor, watching him grow. You even thwarted Marignon when he tried to stand against him. Then you said 'ok, lets fight Ermor now' and... did nothing. Thats why I dont try to rally anyone anymore and just directly blame clueless players for ruining this game.


Wow is that a load of bull. What fantasy universe are you living in? Kuritza, if you wanted me to help you all you would have had to do is get one of the other major powers on your side and ask me nicely to join with the two of you against Ermor. Right up until this latest drama/whining rampage you were in a great position to leverage your second-strongest empire into building a three-way or four-way alliance and setting yourself up to win the game.

But instead you have decided to continue criticizing and name-calling and generally being a gaping a-hole.

Buy a clue dude: that’s not how you get people to help you!

If you had been friendly and communicative I would have helped you. I am pretty sure the others would have helped you too and you would have won the game. But now your jerky behavior has bought you an enemy.

The dark lords of R’lyeh will not rest until every denizen of the Towers of Chelms is banished forever to the void of unending blackness. Prepare for war, Man!

[Quitti]

Quitty, you just perfectly described the very behaviour that turns a 'very unbalanced' LA Ermor into a 'absulutely unbalanced' LA Ermor. You just cant 'mind your business' when there is LA Ermor in the game. If you do, you lose. But you dont care; too bad, because this ruined this game.
I didnt want you to fight Ermor to give ME an edge. I wanted you to join EVERYONES war against Ermor to try and stop him, and then see what you can do next. I already clashed with Ermor, so did Abyssia. Bite him from behind, do SOMETHING. Gosh, unite against me with other survivors when Ermor is down; do some thinking! If you dont want to win, if you dont want to even TRY, why do you even join games?!

While I agree in somewhat same things as SciencePro, I wouldn't be as radical in my words, but essentially he distilled the point I would've been saying. Diplomacy wins wars once the nations are of sufficient size, not ranting about things.

Still, pointers. I like arranging things into numbers or such, it seems.
1) Haven't you been "minding your own business"? I haven't seen you attack Ermor before now. I've seen you state over and over how imbalanced LA Ermor is, and I agree that in this point Ermor is a very very good nation. So would be Niefelheim, or Hinnom, or Sauromatia in similar position. Or Marignon.
2) I agree with Zeldor, LA Marignon should have absolutely no trouble with LA Ermor if played in anti-ermorian way (holy pyre, h3 recruit anywhere priests, excellent line holders against undead chaff - royal guards). I was certain Zeldor would be gone after Marignon started attacking him, and I started hearing stuff about Seraphs, but alas, no. Either Zeldor has some tricks up his sleeve I do not know of and deserves to win anyway since it'd have to be something awesomely good, or the player for Marignon didn't fully realize the potential of his nation.
3) I could do damage to Ermor, but he could counter my forces easily enough. I could counter Ermors forces easily should he attack me. I've got counters for any SC's he could throw at me, and I have a counters for any chaff he could ever throw at me. The problem is that I wouldn't gain anything by attacking fully forted nation, it'd take 2-5 turns to take each fort, and I could probably maintain reasonable siege against 4 forts per turn. Now, what does ermor lose with a castle? Gem income, which he doesn't much need, and which I don't much need. He wouldn't lose any income. I wouldn't gain any. He could take potshots with stealthy mages, teleporting SC's, longrange spells, and I would lose troops, he'd lose few SC's and mages eventually, but the point is that he wouldn't be throwing anything critical at me, unless in sufficient masses to really crush the force. Basically it boils down to being an horrible attrition war, which neither of us would enjoy or gain anything out of.
4) I never said I wouldn't be playing for winning the game, but when the situation is that there is no feasible way of winning the game, I do not play for attempting to win it anymore. I play for having fun. If I have a reasonable chance to win, I push for it.
5) I already stated that I should have attacked Ermor in the very early game. I made a mistake there. I might very well be in top nations now had I done it. I also might as well be very well conquered by you or Mictlan or heck, Patala. I just had an easy way to expand south and I took it. That took the first ~40 turns for me.
6) I've played with LA Ermor in a MP game, actually still am, but I'm not a major force. They have abysmal research (in midgame ~quarter of normal/high researcher rp-income) unless they get very lucky with sites. They have good mages, but they have very limited amount of them. They also have literally thousands of free troops, but they are of absolutely no use against a proper counter for them. In late game it is definitely a good nation that just requires loads and loads of micromanagement to be ran well.
7) Attacking Ermor now would give you a definite edge, and no-one else. Period.

Also, what is this "everyones war against Ermor" you talk of? Are you attempting to say with all this that the game can not be fun if Ermor wins?

[Ossa]

@Kuritza, Quitti and Zeldor:

1)
During the middle game, when I first declared war on Ermor, I was winning. I was pushing him further and further with my H3 priests, holy pyres, untouchable def 19 royal guards and everything. Especially when I managed to cast a prot 30+ royal elemental to act as a blocker.

I managed to go the whole way up to Turku (sp?) with my army until...

... until Science took over, the old player forgot to teach him properly the existing NAPs and Zeldor talked him into attacking my.

When all of your lands are islands surrounded by Ryleth and suddenly that NAPed nation goes on a rampage in your lands you cannot leave your armies fighting Ermor.


If it wouldnt be for Ryleth, I'd have weakened Ermor enough before he summened his SCs. When Ryleth attacked me, Ermor again offered me a NAP, just to stress this point.

LA Marignon would have won a 1:1 war with LA Ermor, even with me playing it. Unfortunatly it wasnt a 1:1 war.


2)
The sea troll was a last ditch efford to clean some of Ermor's water provinces in the vain hope that Ryleth would take them before Ermor comes in again. Didnt work.


3)
Also, what is this "everyones war against Ermor" you talk of? Are you attempting to say with all this that the game can not be fun if Ermor wins?

I guess he's implying that while it is fun if Ermor wins, it would be even more fun if all living nations would unite against a common enemy.

[Quitti]

... until Science took over, the old player forgot to teach him properly the existing NAPs and Zeldor talked him into attacking my.


True enough, but such is diplomacy. I could have attacked you too, but that again would have made Ermor easily the most powerful nation. R'lyeh jumped the chance and now Kuritza is ranting about how Ermor is imbalanced and never again shall he play the game with Ermor and so on. I didn't want that. I was very much against Ermor around 10-15 turns ago, had plenty of armies on his border, and was ready to attack, then the fiasco with the staling occured. Basically what happened was that everyone was *****ing about everything, so I decided to stand back and let actions speak for themselves in-game for other players - so far I know that Man has attacked Ermor, and supposedly Abysia too.

I guess he's implying that while it is fun if Ermor wins, it would be even more fun if all living nations would unite against a common enemy.

And make him the top nation? How would that exactly change the situation? Then me or you would've needed to start a rantfest about how Man is overpowered and must be attacked, or I will never play a game with Man again since he's had time to grow with good strategic choices.

I like the new thread title by the way ;)

[Kuritza]

Science - you think I should PM and come up with constructive suggestions? THATS WHAT I WAS DOING SINCE THE START. Nobody gives a damn. Everyone is affraid of fighting Ermor, watching him grow. You even thwarted Marignon when he tried to stand against him. Then you said 'ok, lets fight Ermor now' and... did nothing. Thats why I dont try to rally anyone anymore and just directly blame clueless players for ruining this game.


Wow is that a load of bull. What fantasy universe are you living in? Kuritza, if you wanted me to help you all you would have had to do is get one of the other major powers on your side and ask me nicely to join with the two of you against Ermor. Right up until this latest drama/whining rampage you were in a great position to leverage your second-strongest empire into building a three-way or four-way alliance and setting yourself up to win the game.

But instead you have decided to continue criticizing and name-calling and generally being a gaping a-hole.

Buy a clue dude: that’s not how you get people to help you!

If you had been friendly and communicative I would have helped you. I am pretty sure the others would have helped you too and you would have won the game. But now your jerky behavior has bought you an enemy.

The dark lords of R’lyeh will not rest until every denizen of the Towers of Chelms is banished forever to the void of unending blackness. Prepare for war, Man!

I asked you nicely many times. You and Quitty. You did nothing. Oh, both of you said 'yes, of course we will fight Ermor'. And kept doing nothing or attacking other players. Load of bull? HELL YES.

If you are going to attack me, this ruins the game completely. Its so much easier to make up some dumb reason and attack these who fight Ermor, while attacking Ermor is so... scary, yes?

Grats, coward.

Zeldor, you have won. THE most undesereved victory ever - these (so tempted to use this word) did nothing to stop you, and now Rlyeh will stop me, as he did with Marignon before.
I am out of here. I tried to open their eyes by reasoning and by critizising. But this is the worst game I ever played.

And if you are still 'not convinced LA Ermor is OP', just watch the graphs again. Yes, your opponents played badly, but this is also a large part of the game. There are many unskilled players; you started surrounded by them, and they even staled. Under such conditions, any nation gets very strong, but LA Ermor simply wins.

This would be different had me and Isokron (I fought him and I can say he is good) started near you... but this game is a proof that 'automatic gang-style balance' doesnt work; instead of joining against common treat, silly people turtle and hope they wont be next. This is why LA Ermor has more than twice the number of victories than its closest competitor. Yes, more than twice because HOF is not updaded anymore, I checked that. And thats even despite LA Ermor is often banned from games.

[Kuritza]

And make him the top nation? How would that exactly change the situation? Then me or you would've needed to start a rantfest about how Man is overpowered and must be attacked, or I will never play a game with Man again since he's had time to grow with good strategic choices.

I like the new thread title by the way ;)

Are are nuts?

I am not LA Ermor. I dont have thousands of free units rising from their graves every turn. And I would surely suffer very, VERY heavy losses by spearheading the attack on Ermor's hub of power, while you and Rlyeh could get some Ermorian lands (he cant really defend against us all) and grow stronger.
And yes, then you could unite against me. I've seen this happen, in games with, you know... experienced players. Leaders come and go, and this is what makes Dominions fun. Turtling and complaining how you cant win anyway wont teach you anything.

... nothing will.

[Kuritza]

Still, pointers. I like arranging things into numbers or such, it seems.

Pointers from you. How cute.

1) Haven't you been "minding your own business"? I haven't seen you attack Ermor before now. I've seen you state over and over how imbalanced LA Ermor is, and I agree that in this point Ermor is a very very good nation. So would be Niefelheim, or Hinnom, or Sauromatia in similar position. Or Marignon.
I had NO opportunity to attack Ermor. I had no border with him, and still working on getting one (Caelums castles are between me and him, I just stop his hordes by sending SCs while my armies siege castles).


2) I agree with Zeldor, LA Marignon should have absolutely no trouble with LA Ermor if played in anti-ermorian way (holy pyre, h3 recruit anywhere priests, excellent line holders against undead chaff - royal guards).
He did. But Ermor has TOO MUCH spawn. For a while, trivial tactics you described seemed to work, but then rigor mortis, darkness (not sure Zeldor had to use it, but still) and Ermor's own SCs changed that.

I was certain Zeldor would be gone after Marignon started attacking him, and I started hearing stuff about Seraphs, but alas, no. Either Zeldor has some tricks up his sleeve I do not know of and deserves to win anyway since it'd have to be something awesomely good, or the player for Marignon didn't fully realize the potential of his nation.
Zeldor plays better than Ossa, for sure. But one cant fight overgrown LA Ermor alone, and Ossa asked for help, repeatedly. I guaranteed you and Caelum that I wont attack you if you attack Ermor, and even promised SC support.
Speaking of being nice and diplomatic... you just ignored me and turtled. Ermor is scary, ha ha.

3) I could do damage to Ermor, but he could counter my forces easily enough. I could counter Ermors forces easily should he attack me. I've got counters for any SC's he could throw at me, and I have a counters for any chaff he could ever throw at me. The problem is that I wouldn't gain anything by attacking fully forted nation, it'd take 2-5 turns to take each fort, and I could probably maintain reasonable siege against 4 forts per turn. Now, what does ermor lose with a castle? Gem income, which he doesn't much need, and which I don't much need. He wouldn't lose any income. I wouldn't gain any. He could take potshots with stealthy mages, teleporting SC's, longrange spells, and I would lose troops, he'd lose few SC's and mages eventually, but the point is that he wouldn't be throwing anything critical at me, unless in sufficient masses to really crush the force. Basically it boils down to being an horrible attrition war, which neither of us would enjoy or gain anything out of.
Lots of crap.
Ermor needs land to get spawn, and gems. Ossa needed help. By fighting Ermor you'd give Ossa some breathing space, and most importantly, if you dont stop Ermor, whatever the cost, he kills you. I told that before, nobody believed me. I turned out to be right, but you are too stubborn to accept it.
Oh, and about you being able to defend against Ermor.... What a sad joke.


4) I never said I wouldn't be playing for winning the game, but when the situation is that there is no feasible way of winning the game, I do not play for attempting to win it anymore. I play for having fun. If I have a reasonable chance to win, I push for it.
You lost your chance to win this game as soon as Ermor started growing so fast and his neighbours, including you, didnt do anything about it.


5) I already stated that I should have attacked Ermor in the very early game. I made a mistake there. I might very well be in top nations now had I done it. I also might as well be very well conquered by you or Mictlan or heck, Patala. I just had an easy way to expand south and I took it. That took the first ~40 turns for me.
I already stated that I promised not to attack anyone who attacks Ermor.

6) I've played with LA Ermor in a MP game, actually still am, but I'm not a major force.
Yep, Ermor takes skill to play right, just like any other nation.

7) Attacking Ermor now would give you a definite edge, and no-one else. Period.
Ganging on Ermor gives everyone an edge. And not trying to stop the leader is game-ruining.

Also, what is this "everyones war against Ermor" you talk of? Are you attempting to say with all this that the game can not be fun if Ermor wins?[/QUOTE]
I am saying that watching Ermor defeat everyone one by one and not even trying to win is not fun. What you do is much worse than just going AI.

Ok, now thats it. Zeldor can declare himself a winner, if his conscience allows it after everything that happened here.

[Quitti]

Pointers from you. How cute.

Thank you for being constructive.

I had NO opportunity to attack Ermor. I had no border with him, and still working on getting one (Caelums castles are between me and him, I just stop his hordes by sending SCs while my armies siege castles).


I offered you a way to attack him/said I was open for such negotiations. You did not take the chance. Do not blame me for this.


He did. But Ermor has TOO MUCH spawn. For a while, trivial tactics you described seemed to work, but then rigor mortis, darkness (not sure Zeldor had to use it, but still) and Ermor's own SCs changed that.

Yes. All true. With enough chaff to fill the battlefield, Ermor could very well beat pretty much anything. But that requires that he'd pool everything he has into few single armies, which he has troubles to do (lots of MM, ferrying troops, nothing undoable though). With the forces I saw battling (Again, I did not see everything, but I did see a lot) Ermor certainly did not have several thousand undead per every fight. By the time Ermor has Rigor Mortis, Marignon should very easily have Solar Brilliance (counters darkness too, from what I remember) very easily. This is only one of many counters for those. Also, Mind Hunts. I believe you've heard of them.


Zeldor plays better than Ossa, for sure. But one cant fight overgrown LA Ermor alone, and Ossa asked for help, repeatedly. I guaranteed you and Caelum that I wont attack you if you attack Ermor, and even promised SC support.

Again true, but I had no way of knowing if you'd keep your word. In addition there was still aggressive mictlan south of me, and abysia south of him and north of me.


Speaking of being nice and diplomatic... you just ignored me and turtled. Ermor is scary, ha ha.


I fought (somewhat single-sided, I admit) wars, after which I could've struck Ermor with very little effect, since I didn't have anything to counter (immortal) SC's. I got that counter ready around 5-10 turns ago, which is too late.


Lots of crap.
Ermor needs land to get spawn, and gems. Ossa needed help. By fighting Ermor you'd give Ossa some breathing space, and most importantly, if you dont stop Ermor, whatever the cost, he kills you. I told that before, nobody believed me. I turned out to be right, but you are too stubborn to accept it.
Oh, and about you being able to defend against Ermor.... What a sad joke.

Like stated, against a battlefield full of undead (meaning 2k-3k+ per fight) I'd struggle, probably lose too. I have national access to d3 mages, w3 mages and s3 mages. All very well capable of countering hordes of chaff, and sc's. Out of his dominion I can fight against his immortal stuff, inside it there's not much point.


You lost your chance to win this game as soon as Ermor started growing so fast and his neighbours, including you, didnt do anything about it.

True, Like I said, I should've done something earlier, which led ultimately into me losing.


I already stated that I promised not to attack anyone who attacks Ermor.


Again, words. Promises can be broken. It would've been counterproductive to you attack me while I was attacking Ermor, since it would've strengthened your position considerably, I admit that. Which again leaves my southern/northern borders, and R'lyeh whom with I've had absolutely no contact regarding to anything, peace or war.



Yep, Ermor takes skill to play right, just like any other nation.


Exactly. Zeldor seems to have done very well in my opinion. I did not, and I know why. I've learned from the experience. Have you learned from this?


Ganging on Ermor gives everyone an edge. And not trying to stop the leader is game-ruining.

Except that the last (strong) nation standing would be you. I do not know what Abysia has, so I will not comment on that. I suppose he has some fire kings and possibly unique blood summons though. All very well counterable.


I am saying that watching Ermor defeat everyone one by one and not even trying to win is not fun. What you do is much worse than just going AI.

Ok, now thats it. Zeldor can declare himself a winner, if his conscience allows it after everything that happened here.

So, you are after all saying that the game cannot be fun if Ermor wins due he playing his nation well.

With you admitting that you cannot defeat Ermor, I believe he's the rightful winner. I'm ready to concede the game for him should he want to end this. I still would prefer if you'd fight on to actually see what happens.

[SciencePro]

I asked you nicely many times.
You most certainly did not! You PM’d me exactly once ever and that was responding to questions I sent you.

If you are going to attack me, this ruins the game completely.
Well I certainly hope it ruins it for you! That’s the point. There is nothing I could do to enjoy myself more than attack you right now so it will hardly ruin things for me.

Its so much easier to make up some dumb reason and attack these who fight Ermor, while attacking Ermor is so... scary, yes?
Grats, coward.

I am attacking you because of all the whining, all the name-calling, and all the useless drama. You’ve turned this game into a laughingstock of silliness and I can’t think of any way I could enjoy myself more than attacking your nation.

Zeldor, you have won. THE most undesereved victory ever - these (so tempted to use this word) did nothing to stop you, and now Rlyeh will stop me, as he did with Marignon before.

Well the likelihood is that either you are going to win or Zeldor is. Zeldor’s been helpful and friendly and sportsmanlike. You’ve chosen the opposite route. So obviously Zeldor is much more deserving of ultimately winning than you are.

But I'm not surrendering. As far as I'm concerned we'll play it out until the end. If/when Zeldor wants to take my territory i will fight tooth and nail over it. Sure, it would be nice if I had a decent ally or two but I'd rather lose to a sportsmanlike player than be allied with an a-hole.

And if you are still 'not convinced LA Ermor is OP', just watch the graphs again.

Zeldor’s success in this game has little to do with Ermor’s inherent abiltites and everything to do with his social skills, a gene you were apparently born without.

I am out of here. I tried to open their eyes by reasoning and by critizising. But this is the worst game I ever played.

Smell you later!

Maybe you should try Farmville. I think it’s more your speed.

[Kuritza]

>> With you admitting that you cannot defeat Ermor, I believe he's the rightful winner. I'm ready to concede the game for him should he want to end this. I still would prefer if you'd fight on to actually see what happens.

I might have prevailed, to be honest. But see the smelly comment from Science above. He enjoyed himself killing Marignon, now he is going to enjoy himself killing me. Of course, he cant 'kill' me, but as in Ossa's case, I wont be able to fight both Rlyeh and Ermor effectively.
I wont give him this pleasure.

>> So, you are after all saying that the game cannot be fun if Ermor wins due he playing his nation well.

No. Even Zeldor said it here - he was surrounded by underplayed, staling nations, and then Rlyeh backstabbed his only adversary. Now you decided to turtle, and Science keeps attacking these who might fight Ermor. Its not a victory I would call 'sportsmanlike'.

>>You most certainly did not! You PM’d me exactly once ever and that was responding to questions I sent you.

I asked everyone, in the forum, many times. I also PMed you, indeed, answering your questions and telling you that we should aid Marignon and I am about to attack Ermor. Which I did. You didnt answer me and didnt attack Ermor too, making sure Marignon didnt recover from your backstab.

>> But I'm not surrendering. As far as I'm concerned we'll play it out until the end. If/when Zeldor wants to take my territory i will fight tooth and nail over it. Sure, it would be nice if I had a decent ally or two but I'd rather lose to a sportsmanlike player than be allied with an a-hole.

Yes, you are not surrendering. You are ruining this game by once again supporting an already winning side from underwater, making resistance futile. How very nice. Oh, and speaking of maneers, whining and name-calling. Please do read the previous page. I stated that I asked for help, repeatedly and in a civil maneer, to absolutely no avail. You told me that I should have 'asked somebody for help' and called me an 'a-hole'. Twice now. Go wash your mouth.


I only despaired after Isokron asked to close this game. Just when I was about to finally get a chance to fight Ermor and do something meaningful in this game.
Hehe. Nobody listened to me when I tried explaining just how much more dangerous adequately-played Ermor is than any other nation. When I despaired and lost my temper, I've got your attention at least. Of course, you still didnt understand anything. The likes of you never do.

[binarysolo]

A somewhat neutral comment from the peanut gallery... I've been following this thread for awhile given that I've played with about half of the players here in various MP/Blitz games, and this thread is pretty notorious on IRC too.


I think there's a divergence of expectation amongst the players here, where some clearly regard the point of the game being in-game victory and only that, and that people should act in a game-optimal manner without regard to any other interests. The other party clearly includes diplomacy and meta-diplomatic actions as part of their decision process. It's not my place to assign fault or anything, but while I don't think consorting with Sauron's the smartest idea for one's own livelihood, being indignant in expectation for allies in your holier-than-thou war without any regards to diplomacy is not constructive either. From what I understand Zeldor put a decent chunk of time playing the diplomacy game, and ultimately a lot of Dom3 is that unless you play the No Diplo games. Heck, as he showed, with a good investment of time into diplomatic overtures, you can divide your enemies and even ally them despite clearly leading in the charts.

Obviously these MP games are a huge time investment, and with that builds ownership and attachment, but I think certain players may regret that their comments and behaviors will be permanently etched into the records of this forum. Take a breather, it's a game at the end of the day, no need to wade deep into the mud just to carry the battles into the community itself. :/

[Zeldor]

Come on, let's not exaggerate the drama.

There were many weak players in the game. But they bordered everyone. Am I to blame that others did not take use of their weakness? Kuritza took a prov with sages near C'tis cap, unforted, and C'tis has lower research than I do. Pan suicided his pretender after casting a global with him, which let you easily kill him.

Why are you blaming me here? Is it my fault that previous R'lyeh player did not tell me about his agreement with Mari? that Mari did not inform new R'lyeh player properly? that new R'lyeh player was really much better player and made some use of his nation and finally killed indies? that some players got convinced by people like you that Ermor is uber and panicked [like Jomon who retreated instead of owning me with massed archers]? that Utgard did not attack me early on, when he couldn't really do much?

You did serious mistakes in your diplomacy. You limited to to Ermor and anti-Ermor camps. But it was not really that. It was either me, Mari or Man camp. You forgot that you need to convince someone to help you win. Convince someone that you winning is better than me winning. And it looks like you failed in that.

[Kuritza]

I doubt I will regret anything, to be honest. Oh I would, were I to keep playing with these people again. But really, would you play again, fully knowing that this crap will happen again and again?

I actually care about peoples opinion about me, funny as it may sound. Usually, that is. But sometimes you just get tired of stepping on the same rake. I had enough games with a clear leader spending days charming everyone else to the point they just hand him the victory. I dont blame these people, actually. Not anymore, at least. Zeldor did a good job here, and I have zero hard feelings towards him. But newbs (and/or loonies) who buy it make me annoyed. Irrational, unreasonable people arouse some irrational anger in me. :)

Sometimes you want to play Dominions with sensible people who dont play to make others win. You wish for game companions who actually play to the end; play as in 'strive to win', not 'backstab somebody just for the fun of it, and then lose'.

Such community doesnt exist, obviously. There are no ideal people (flashnews). So I have to stop playing. My wife will be glad, to be honest. )))))
And about these who called me an *******... Or my harsh behaviour that will be 'etched into this forum'... Who cares? Some will remember me as a good player, some will remember me as a bad person. Some probably wont. But at the end of the day its just some game forum.
/shrug

[Quitti]

As Kuritza does not answer/reply to what I said, I'll ask everyone, shall we continue this game or simply concede it to Ermor?

[SciencePro]

i'd prefer to play it out.

[Kuritza]

Declare it over.

I dont want to play against both LA Ermor and LA Rlyeh, Isokron told he doesnt want to play anymore, you said that you dont care who wins and Science-a-hole only plays to grief these who fight Ermor in this game. No point to keep playing.

Unless, of course, Science agrees to keep doing nothing (its his forte, after all) and let normal players finish this game without his random attacks. But I dont believe he will, I think you know why.

[Kuritza]

Know what?

Maybe I will be able to annoy this Science dude back, or just give a good fight in my last game. I am staying.
To the end!

[Kuritza]

And while we are at it... postpone hosting, Abyssia is staling.

[Zeldor]

Oh, I really doubt we can get Juffos now...

[Kuritza]

In Soviet Russia, Juffos gets YOU!

Down with Abyssia, then. :) The outcome is clear anyway, we are doomed.

[Quitti]

He extended the hosting. So let's just... drudge along this game apparently. Meh.

[Isokron]

I guess I will get in a turn tonight when I get home if we are really continuing then.

[SciencePro]

Declare it over.

I am staying. To the end!

Hehe that was a pretty quick flip-flop you got going on there. I have to admit I feel the same way - every time I go on to this forum I feel like taking a different strategy. One morning I feel like berating you or ossa into quitting (improving my position but probably not enough to get me up to #1). The next afternoon I feel like trying to make nice and work together. One day I'm happy to jump into the drama screaming just a bit louder than the last guy. The next day I feel like its a chore and stressing me out.

Anyway, I'm sorry I called you an a-hole, Kuritza. I don't know you in real life so you probably aren't one. You said some annoying and immature things on an internet forum but, hell, who hasn't? Sometimes it seems like that is the whole point of having the internet in the first place.

So I've got some detailed ideas of how we should all proceed from here. Oh wait - there is someone at the door, let me get that first. I'll be right back!

[Kuritza]

Ok, lets say I'm sorry too.

The less feuds IRL, the better for Karma. Today is the anniversary of our (mine and my wive's, that is) buddhist wedding, by the way, so lets commemorate it by being maneered, heh.

[SciencePro]

ATTENTION PUNY HUMANS!

This is to inform you that SciencePro has been eaten by Shub-Niggurath. He will not be missed. The empire of R'lyeh is now under the direct control of he-who-must-not-be-named.

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

[SciencePro]

The less feuds IRL, the better for Karma. Today is the anniversary of our (mine and my wive's, that is) buddhist wedding, by the way, so lets commemorate it by being maneered, heh.

The elder gods congratulate you on your futile human mating activities. It turns out that Buddhist brains taste better. Nom nom nom.

[Kuritza]

Ok, the loss of Queens was a result of Zeldor's good play.
But THIS? This is just plain dumb... auto-rout because of really low PD, I haven't seen that before, EVER in my life. You need to have at least PD 10 to auto-rout a fat SC usually.

Gosh. Its almost as stupid as Science trying to "strenghten" his hopeless position by helping Zeldor win. Cant say I understand people who have fun making the game less fun for others. But lets not start it over again.

[Isokron]

Well seems like sciencepro thought this was a good time to backstab me despite our nap. Im retreating from your territory Zeldor, attack me if you wish but im going to spend the rest of this game (probably a rather short time) fighting rlyeh.

[SciencePro]

mnahn' orr'e SciencePro wgah'n shogg syha'h

stell'bsna n'gha

[Zeldor]

Kuritza:

Why did you teleport him there anyway? It looks like fate does not want you to win :P

[Ossa]

Oh well... I just discovered I forgot to sent my redone turn.
The one I did after decided to continue playing and putting a great efford into.

Thanks to me having submited a blank turn with "go ai" I didnt notice the next hosting was due today:/

May I ask for a rollback :doh: ;) ?

If you say no I'm ok with it, given the progress of this game, but if everyone would agree I'd happily continue... bah :(

[Zeldor]

OH yeah, sure. I just wondered what's with all that call of the wind spam :P

[Kuritza]

Yes, a rollback pretty please )))))
I'd really send Queens there again had we rolled back THAT turn (deserved loss is a deserved loss), but this dumb auto-rout because of low PD......... mweh.
Thought I'm more clever like that. :)

[Ossa]

Admin?

I'm online again from around 2 gmt on today - if we could just rollback and I submit my altered turn...

[Zeldor]

Kuritza:

Of course no changing of turns. And if someone forges artifacts otherwise he'd not, he sends them where they should be :P Etc, etc.

[Kuritza]

Zeldor, shoo. You've got a TWO turns rollback, which counted as a free reckon on Ossa's armies :) Heck, you even have a free Dreams of Rlyeh support now, which I cant do anything against. ))) So in all honesty, you shouldnt object to a single change now.

As I said, the only thing I will ever change will be this devil. This whole thing was absolutely dumb anyway, you have to agree on this. Or dont rollback at all - I can cope with this loss, as annoying as it is. :)

[Zeldor]

Sure, but if the rollback happens it's just to let Marignon still play and not be set AI, not to correct stupid mistakes [if you want to correct that, I'd want to fix one big battle I lost and I didn't know would happen, and so on].

[Kuritza]

Just as before the rollbacks happened because you made a mistake, and it was corrected, even though some of us disagreed, cough.
So... come on. :)

And it wasnt even exactly a mistake on my behalf. This is the very first time I see a Devil rout because PD of, like, 3-4 was killed. Usually they ignore PD that low.

[Quitti]

One rollback I can live with, but wouldn't prefer any more.

Kuritza, you do know about the hp limit autorout, right?

[Zeldor]

Why did you pick smth so powerful to defend a province of minor importance anyway? I could not use much to attack it, 25 PD would have killed my attacking force alone. Probably 15-20 too.

And I think everyone lived through frustrating moments like that. I lost so many Golems to turn50 limit that I stopped to summon them for a while. Or other extremely stupid things [communion exploding itself with phoenix pyre against routing enemy, or unscripted vortex of returning when defending VP].

[Kuritza]

Because I had to make the turn in a big, big hurry, like 30 minutes, after almost a 48-hours travel. If I had some time to really consider the situation, of course I would abandon that stupid province. :)

By the way - no, you seem to overestimate my mighty PD and underestimate your endless hordes. My PD doesnt stand a a single chance against your chaff.

[Zeldor]

You overestimate my chaff's ability to deal any damage to heavily armored troops [Marignon's Royal Guards were totally owning me and I throw hundreds on his few without result].

I was doing my turn in a hurry too - like one hour before hosting. With some unsatisfactory results.

So either a rollback with only Marignon submitting modified turn file or no rollback at all. I personally have no profit in Marignon not being AI [rather contrary, but I have existence of any AIs in the game].

[Kuritza]

Did you see ANY armored troops in my PD? ^^

Anyway, I also dont care if Marignon is AI or not, he wont change much now. Actually, for the sake of game balance it would be BETTER if *some* players will go AI now instead of doing some random crap. :)
And as I said, no rollback is fine with me too, I know I cant win now anyway, so some stupid losses to a stupid flaw in the rules (you know, looking at the 'pd 3' its hard to guess it will be enough HP to rout a Devil) dont really matter. Question is 'when' we lose, not 'if'.

But after your rollbacks, I didnt think you will object against a real rollback so strongly. I hope host will disregard your objections as he disregarded mine and Ossa's back then. :)

[Zeldor]

We are all just stating our opinions here of course :) It's up to Juffos to decide and give us orders.

[Juffos]

Zeldor was given some mercy, others will be given too.

[Kuritza]

Yay!

Now, it will be funny if freshly generated turn will be worse than this one, which is possible :) But - heck - at least it will be funny, eh?

[SciencePro]

The elder gods wish to inform you that it makes no difference if you rollback dozens of turns or roll them ahead or place them in a loop.

We exist in all times and all places.

We laugh at the limitation of your puny brains. Only perceiving one moment and then the next and so on. Pitiable! Of all the billions of moments in your life you could be experiencing ALL of them simultaneously. And all the billions of moments in the lives of all the other living things on Earth and of all the other billions of inhabited planets in your galaxy and the other billions of galaxies in your universe and all the billions of universes in the multiverse and of all the billions of multiverses and so on.

Ah its no use explaining. Words fail. Only when you are one with the void will you understand.

As you prepare for the inevitable, enjoy this video clip:

http://www.movieweb.com/video/HUOpFTOTCxmqSX

[Quitti]

The video cannot be viewed in your region. Not so omnipotent now, are you!?

[Zeldor]

BTW, why are people submitting revised turns? Wasn't it supposed to be rollback just for Marignon?

[SciencePro]

The dark ones curse Hulu for hoarding their silly video clips for only those in the United States! A Spectral Hunter has been dispatched to Hulu headquarters in Los Angeles, California to deal with the problem.

We offer this music video as a substitute:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb9By-lODgk

[Juffos]

Everyone can resubmit their turns. Think of it as a global mulligan. You are allowed to complain as much as you would like to.

[SciencePro]

Gof’nn ah-“complaining” ilyaa wgah'n ebumna n'ghft syha'h

[Zeldor]

BTW, why did we do a rollback, when Marignon is still AI?

Another question - why not abck to 72h hosting?

And another thing - special announcement from Ermor coming soon.

[Kuritza]

No idea, to be honest. I said I dont really care what happens in this dumb game anymore. :) Setsumi, the land of brainless loonies.

... Utterdark at last? Or just burden of time, for starters?

[SciencePro]

Setsumi, the land of brainless loonies.

Brainless? Hardly! I eat brains for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Gobble Gobble!

[Zeldor]

Ermor legions are marching and will keep on marching. All that try to oppose us are doomed.

Jomon is gone. Gath is gone. Pythium is gone. Arcoscephale is gone. C'tis is gone. Marignon is gone. Resistance is futile.

Stop fighting now, refuse your masters' oppression and surrender your weapons. Your cruel masters are your enemies, all that Ermor brings is eternal peace and peace. Don't let yourselves get blinded by lies spread by our enemies.

All hail Ermor! All hail eternal peace and freedom!


[Shall we?]

[Quitti]

We might as well end it since Marig is STILL AI even though we rerolled the turn to undo it, and R'lyeh is attacking everyone on random (which is fun though).

[SciencePro]

The dark old ones care not if the game ends or continues.

If it continues we will continue devouring anyone who stands before us. Or beside us. Or wherever.

If it ends then we will congratulate the Ermorians on their victory and move on to devouring some other dimension.

Either way, evil will always triumph over good. Because good is dumb.

[Kuritza]

There's nothing to congratulate with, since its a random loony who ensures Ermor's victory. Anyway, I dont see how Marignon's AI state changes this game. It doesnt change anything at all.
I just wish Science had the decency to go AI instead of (role)playing an idiot.

If it ends then we will congratulate the Ermorians on their victory and move on to devouring some other dimension.

You mean that you will join some other game to ruin it? Just dont change the nickname on this forum, so at least everyone knows that some dumb kid just joined the game to ruin it and can react accordingly.

Anyway, PLEASE stop this crap about 'lets end this game' every other turn, ok? Let me play this game already. If YOU lost all hope, if you dont know how to play this game, by all means, go AI and get out of here. Let others play. Science, I will personally thank you if you decide to, and even restore a fraction of respect towards you.

[Quitti]

Anyway, I dont see how Marignon's AI state changes this game.

I thought the reason for the rollback was purely to get marignon to be non-AI. I see marignon is still AI, so what's the point of the rollback? I gained from this rollback, and I believe you did too, but I don't consider it a very fair play.

I'm willing to continue if others do, but I'd rather end this drama-ridden game while we're still having fun.

[SciencePro]

Wow, Kuritza it seems like you really hate this SciencePro guy. It seems you are really going out of your way with all the name-calling and personal attacks. I kind of liked him. He was tasty. Especially with hot sauce!

NY!
ARL!
AT!
HO!
TEP!

NY!
ARL!
AT!
HO!
TEP!

[Kuritza]

Science, hate has to be earned, so ... no, its not hate. Its annoyance.

Quitti - speaking of fun, I started the 'drama' only when all the 'lets declare this game over, we are doomed' cries started - and I was just getting to the most interesting part.
All I got was this childish retard going out of his way to ruin this game for me completely. Still, since this is most likely my last game of Dominions, do you mind if I fething PLAY IT TO THE END?

[Kuritza]

And since you mentioned fair play, I dont consider it 'fair' when LA Ermor grows by eating staling newbs one by one, while his neighbours say 'its ok, we'll unite against him later', and then said neighbours say 'he deserved this victory already, lets end this game' again and again.
Furthermore, I dont consider it fair when some idiot breaks game balance by helping the clear leader win the game. Game settings say nothing about team victoriy, as far as I can see its a solo match.
So fairness has nothing to do with this game, its too late. I just want these 'lets declare Ermor a winner without a fight' talks stop, kk?

[SciencePro]

'fhalma Kuritza hupadgh mnahn' grah'n

h'gnaiih orr'e mnahn' wgah'n shogg syha'h

NY!
ARL!
AT!
HO!
TEP!

NY!
ARL!
AT!
HO!
TEP!

[Zeldor]

Kuritza:

Why so much anger and hatred? Everyone is playing that game to enjoy himself. Why would you expect anyone to help you with attitude like that? It's multiplayer. You deal with live people. They have emotions. They do mistakes. And they are easy to be offended. And too much bad emotions and rushed words are a sign that game maybe should be ended.

You gained from weak players near you [Pan for example?], you gained a lot from last rollback [which was totally unnecessary, it seems]. And you can in same moment accuse me of attacking my neighbours when they were weak? You could have assimilated C'tis, instead of supporting weak neutral state. You'd have border with me. You could have killed weak Caelum played by new player to get border with me. You could have aided MArignon with gems and gold to help his war effort. You did nothing, until recently.

But now it's too late. You are left alone, smaller and poorer. You can annihilate my useless armies one by one - I won't even notice. I can meanwhile wait and strike when I see fit. You had your chance to stop me and you missed it. If you want to continue fighting for 20,30 or 50 turns, sure, we can do that. But stop blaming other people for your mistakes. Really.

[SciencePro]

Anger and Hatred only make the beast stronger.

Don't poke the beast.

Or, go ahead, he won't mind! Rar!

[Kuritza]

1) I expected people help me when I had a different attitude. And I expected people to help THEMSELVES, against you. Read the thread and realize I am speaking the truth.
2) Yes, I gained from weak player near me. But I am not LA Ermor, I couldnt grow as fast as you did. And my neighbours didnt stale as much as yours. Still, I came a rather close second, which is quite good imho, isnt it.
3) I didnt help Ctis, I couldnt care about him less. I attacked Caelum to get a border with you. Alas, I was really reluctant to attack him before that because he was my ally against Pan before, and I promised I wont attack anyone who is about to attack you - which he did. Just like Quitty, btw. When I realized that he is is simply lying and is, in fact, your ally, I attacked him. It was too late.
4) Support Marignon with gems? Sorry, you know he was rather underplayed. Wouldnt help.
5) As you see, I didnt have the chance to stop you. Of course you would like to think that its your immense skill that made you so strong, and my lack thereof that left me alone and weak. But oh please, be honest with yourself for once.
6) Yes you can send your armies and dont care that I annihilate them. You are LA ERMOR, goddamnit. LA ERMOR that all the damn noobs ignored until it came to this. Such a weak nation, right Zeldor? Just an average, weak nation. It only has more that twice the victories than any other nation, despite being banned regularily, because its often played by pro players, of course. And I dont even think this game will teach anyone, anything.
7) Why so much hate? Because I am tired of this. I am tired of idiots who play this game only to support the strongest nation. This is not fun, mind you, to fight the leader, fight an uphill battle, only to be backstabbed by some moron who doesnt want to win and thus doesnt care about game balance. And I am tired of being unable to do anything about it.
This crap happened to me too often. And dont you point at my attitude: this is the first time I allowed myself to respond that way in this community, because I simply dont care anymore. I dont see how I can continue playing anyway. You said that people play this game for fun - but its simply NOT FUN to play with backstabbing idiots who support the leader. Not fun to plan, think and develop your nation for half a year for such a dumb end. And even less fun when everyone starts crying 'lets stop the game', which is what caused the 'drama' in the first place, not your imminent victory.

[Quitti]

Well, to avoid another useless flamefest where you don't actually even respond to my questions, I'll just say that you think very differently than I do. I urge you to test out this overpowered LA Ermor you speak of, it's quite fun.

[Kuritza]

I would, but if I pick LA Ermor now, I'm sure these who are aware of this thread will try to prove I'm wrong and attack me, whilst my point is that Ermor is so overpowered when NOT attacked by everybody.

Otherwise, its pointless to argue that Ermor is NOT overpowered since we have statistics. LA Ermor is dominating the top nations list for LA, more than outdated HoF might indicate. Perhaps I will take LA Ermor under a different name after a few months, just to prove my point. I ran some test games in single mode and realised that LA Ermor is simply overwhelming - when not ganked and played properly, of course.

By the way, feel free to ask questions via PM. Afaik, I answered all your questions - perhaps you just didnt take it as answers.

[Quitti]

No one has disputed the fact that Ermor is a very good nation when no-one attacks it. The exactly same thing could be said about any other nation - if no one wages war against you and you can grow freely, you will win the game. Simple as that. The thing that makes Ermor scary is that there's very little profit in attacking it - no income from the lands is a loss, waging war is not simply useful until the late game when income plays a way smaller role. And still you are arguing that Ermor has x wins in HoF and so on, when the game has been made very much more harder against Ermor since most of those victories as far as I know (10x the poploss it used to be).

About the questions part - I wrote a wall of text few pages ago, to which you answered to, hmm, 2 lines of text? 3? Still, it does not make much sense to argue about it, so please, let's leave it be.

[Kuritza]

Ermor is much stronger than any other nation when allowed to attack and consume neighbours one by one. If you dont understand the reasons for it, I am very sorry but I wont explain obvious things.

Check new victories in the thread - you will still find new LA Ermor victories, more than for any other LA nation. And no, its not just 'very little profit in attacking' that makes Ermor strong.
Getting rid of Ermor who will kill you if you do nothing about him is a reward enough for these who actually try to win the game by the way. When you just want to 'have some fun' moving troops around until the game is declared over, then there's no point in attacking Ermor, true.
As for your wall of text - I answered it, believe it or not. I can explain my answers in detail if you repeat your questions in PM, but I doubt that you are interested. You already know your truth, right? :)

[SciencePro]

FYI I am tired of reading Kuritza's insults so he is on my ignore list. Dude, if you have something you really need to tell me please relay it through someone else or use an in-game message. Anyone, in the unlikely event he says something actually important or relevant (like if he really quits instead of just threatening to quit 10000x times) please let me know.

And, oh yeah, ALL PRAISE THE DARK LORDS!

[Burnsaber]

Yeah, I'm not in the game, put like any self-respecting IrC-dweller, I know of this thread and I've been following it. I've managed to keep myself from responding but the last two pages was just too much. I'm an outsider so I really don't have as much info as you guys on how the game ran, so I'm just writing based on what I've read on the thread.

Kuritza, you need to realise that not everyone plays like you do. I've seen similar tirades as yours in board game sessions (I'm a member of a local game club with weekly sessions), where a new player makes a sub-optimal move, screwing some experienced players plans -> drama. As shocking it might seem, some people aren't playing to win, but to have fun while playing. You can't get pissed at other people when they refuse to play like you want them to play (note emphasis).

Also note that a coordinated alliance against Ermor really isn't that bright move in all cases. All players who are fighting ermor are "losing" -> They are paying resources without getting much in return. This in turn is a advantage to those nation who are not in the front lines. Looks like the potential alliance members you were trying to rally up just thought that the allaince would be a losing move, probably because it would be benefit their neighbours more than them. "Why wouldn't you ally up so that I can win" really isn't that compelling argument. Or perhaps the players just didn't think that fighting Ermor would be as much fun as some other target. You are playing with humans, not machines out for the optimal gameplay stragedy.

Also, blaming the ruination of a game on "staling newbs" isn't really constructive. Dominions 3 is complex game, not just in mechanics but in diplomacy too. They will make mistakes and play in a suboptimal way. Newbies need to be encouraged and given friendly advice, not insulted.

If you have a problem with LA Ermor, may I suggest that you won't in future join in games which allow it? If you have problem with a player "rolling over newbs" perhaps try create a non-newb game? What I'm getting at is that this drama should end, for all sides to stop pointless complaining and instead try to learn something from the scenario.

[Kuritza]

What can one learn about this scenario, please tell me? Other than 'dont join games with Ermor and lots of noobs'? Diplomacy DOES NOT WORK in such situations. Believe me, I tried hard. You already wrote the reasons why it doesnt work, as Quitty did before you.

'Other people' and 'me'. Well, well. Did you, per chance, play DotA in WCIII? Good players tend to play in closed, or semi-closed, leagues - because playing with leavers and feeders who compose majority of public games is just not fun. So there should either be some rules, like 'dont play vassal to another player least you break game balance', in order for the games to be competitive and enjoyable for all, not just these allying players, or there should be closed games, black lists etc.
Or, you know, I can make a couple of alts and start joining games to ruin them in some way or another, mimicing SciencePro. I doubt anyone would like it.

And how should I encourage said noob whp backstabs me belching nonsense while I try to fight a grown LA Ermor?

As for coordinated alliance against Ermor really isn't that bright move', you see, alternative is 'just lose'. This game is a perfect illustration; its like sitting on a time bomb. You can try to diffuse it, as costly as it may be, or just wait till it blows up and you all die.

I dont have a problem with LA Ermor by itself. I dont have a problem with players rolling over noobs by themselves. There's a problem with one particular scenario - LA Ermor rolls over noobs, who get scared and do nothing about him. Its an assured victory for Ermor, and a guaranteed loss to whoever is unfortunate enough to respawn too far from him. Especially when said noobs actually ally with him and start helping him win actively.

I am all up for ending the drama and playing, but every second turn somebody starts the 'lets end the game' theme again.

[Ossa]

Just as a side note - when the rollback happened I erased all earlier orders and redid my turn from the beginning.

I assumed I was domkilled by a massed Melancholie when I didnt get another turn, thats why I didnt look here again. I have no idea why Marignon was still set to AI after the rollback. Not that it would have mattered, but I did not intend to simply bail out of this game.

[Zeldor]

Ossa:

Too bad... well, not really bad for me as I get cheap provs, but for the game as whole.

Kuritza:

You are the one making that drama. You are the one that is unhappy about the game. You seem to have troubles with the existence of Setsumi. You still claim that Ermor is uber and unstoppable. So isn't your approach contradictory? Trying to fight me when you know you can't win? Admit it, you just want more drama here and entertainment for people that read that thread :)

[Kuritza]

Kuritza:

You are the one making that drama. You are the one that is unhappy about the game. You seem to have troubles with the existence of Setsumi. You still claim that Ermor is uber and unstoppable. So isn't your approach contradictory? Trying to fight me when you know you can't win? Admit it, you just want more drama here and entertainment for people that read that thread :)

Didnt you notice that I am making the drama only when somebody says 'lets close the game' for the 10th time?
I still claim that FACTS tell us Ermor is overpowered. But I still think I'd have a very fair chance against you had this idiot not backstabbed me. And even then there's probably a good fight ahead because he cant even ruin games properly. Actually, I looked forward to fighting Ermor when I joined this game, fully knowing that Ermor is overpowered, for the challenge of it.
But admit it, you made your 'proclamation' because you wanted to provoke more drama and entertain these people who read this thread? :)

[Kuritza]

Can we postpone it by 24 hours?

[Zeldor]

Juffos is on irc [or idle?], I will forward, 24h more will be cool for me too.


Or maybe you could surrender instead? If you thought you are doing fine and limiting my army, you are wrong - it's just display limit of 32k, it's still growing :)

[Kuritza]

I dont think anything can limit LA Ermor's army when he is so overgrown. But the only thing that troubles me is that harmonica/virtue combo. Now that will stale my campaign for the next few turns... but its not uncounterable too.
Although very, very nice. Grats. :)

[vfb]

Oh, that is a nice idea!

[Kuritza]

By the way, I am leaving for a vacation trip for two weeks again. So... please postpone it or close, for all I care.
Happy New Year etc.

[Zeldor]

I have no problem with that. BTW, your resistance is futile.

[SciencePro]

I agree that Zeldor wins

[Isokron]

I have already voted for a Zeldor victory once.

[Quitti]

Ah, it was getting interesting again, though if we want to close it, I don't mind.

[Zeldor]

I wonder if Kuritza is alive. It's way over those 2 weeks he requested and still no word from him...

[Kuritza]

I am.
But it looks like Lapis has ended much sooner than I expected, so I am quitting what has become of Dominions, just like I promised.

[Zeldor]

So what about Setsumi?

[Kuritza]

So screw Setsumi. I told you that I play until Lapis ends; Lapis has ended, or so it seems, so I am out.
Setsumi was one of the crappiest Dominions games I ever played, so of course I have absolutely no desire to keep playing it now that I dont want to play Dominions in general.

[Juffos]

Mission successful. Zeldor of Jomon wins.

:)

[vfb]

Certainly, this was a masterpiece of timing and suspense. The drama fades ... a long pause ... some reasonableness all around, and it looks like it's all over.

Then, BOOM! Drama. A tremendous dramatic finish by Kuritza. :clap:

[Zeldor]

Here is my last turn file, for anyone interested. It's NOT rar file, just TRN, RENAME extenstion to .trn [really, they could add .trn and .2h to allowed files on those forums].

[Quitti]

Congratulations to.. Zeldor of Jomon. Yes, that it was.

[SciencePro]

Congrats Zeldor!

Thanks for sharing your turn file - i'll have to study that...