Setsumi - Come for the game, stay for the drama!

[Juffos]

Map: Asia Twist (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41101)

Mods: CBM1.5 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43120) and llamaBanners (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39989)

Players: 17 (R'lyeh and Atlantis are mutually inclusive, Ermor too)

Magic sites: 50
Hall of fame: 15

Everything else: default

Shall we get going? Ohkey!


Hosting will stay at 24 hours until players request for additional time.


Juffos - Jomon
Quitti - Utgård
Alpine Joe - Pangaea
Zeldor - Ermor
viccio - C'tis
Isokron - Abysia
Ossa - Marignon
Sil - Atlantis
rtyffg - R'lyeh
Dragar - Arcoscephale
Ferrosol - Agartha
punkzip - Caelum | subbed by anthropos
Kuritza - Man
Skinu - Mictlan
secretperson - Patala
PaGal - Pythium
Magical Gohda Chef - Gath

[Quitti]

I'd like to take Utgård.

[Alpine Joe]

In as Pangaea

[Zeldor]

Hmm... Ermor?

[viccio]

Ctis !!! if it's possible

[Isokron]

I would like to try Abysia

[Ossa]

Marignon for me plz

[Jazzepi]

I'll take Bogarus.

Jazzepi

[Jazzepi]

Actually, as much as I'd like to drown myself in Dom3, I don't really have time for one, more, game, so don't add me to the list!

Jazzepi

[Sil]

I'll have Atlantis, if that's ok.

[Zeldor]

Ok, my pretender is ready.

[Dragar]

Arco

[rtyffg]

I'd like to take R'lyeh

[Ferrosol]

Been meaning to play dominions a bit more In as Agartha

[punkzip]

I'm interested in playing if there are any spots left - what nations if any are available?

[Kuritza]

I'll play Man

[Sil]

Ulm, Mictlan, TC, Caelum, Midgard, Utgard, Patala, Gath, Pythium, Bogarus.

[punkzip]

I can take Caelum.

[Skinu]

In as mictlin

[secretperson]

Is this still in the signups phase? If so, I'd like Patala please

[PaGal]

Pithium, please)

[Magical Gohda Chef]

Gath

[Skinu]

I apologize off the bat for having to ask, How do I load my pretender god to you ?

PS. This will by my first game. :p

Thanks

[Juffos]

We will use the llamaserver.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35160

[Ferrosol]

The battle begins...

Now I want a good clean fight that ends with agartha's pretender ascending to godhood over the corpses of his rivals

[Kuritza]

Rather unfortunate start - sorry, but I will have to ask you to postpone it. There's a bank holyday in Russia today, so I'll be away from the city for the WE. I'm sending turn 1 now, but please postpone turn 3 till monday, 15th.

Thanks.

[punkzip]

I am playing Caelum. I need to drop out as my mom is in the hospital and I don't have time to do turns now. Sorry for dropping out so soon.

[Ferrosol]

I am playing Caelum. I need to drop out as my mom is in the hospital and I don't have time to do turns now. Sorry for dropping out so soon.

Fair enough Family comes first I hope your mum gets better soon

[Kuritza]

Punkzip, dude... I understand you have more pressing matters at hand, but still - if you decided to drop, go AI; if you want to continue later, find somebody to replace you.

[Ferrosol]

So did we get a replacement for caelum?

[Anthropos]

Hello, I am Caelum's replacement. I have not been privy to any discussions/negotiations so far. If you wish to talk, please send a pm to Anthropos.

ps: This map looks great, very interesting.

[Juffos]

Because I will be gone until next Wednesday, the hosting of the game will be paused for some time.

[Juffos]

And by paused I mean postponed. I am not sure whether I can submit turns or not but I will do so whenever possible.

[Zeldor]

BTW, I have informed Juffos about one very strange thing in that game. Maybe we should wait till it gets clarified and postpone hosting?

[Skinu]

Ive not recieved a turn 10 file, and ive messaged llamabeast but no reply so far, dont want to hold you guys up.

[Zeldor]

Request resend. You don't need admin for that.

[Skinu]

Aaaah, thank you Zeldor.

[Zeldor]

Hmm... why did Atlantis go AI? He looks good on graphs...

[PaGal]

Damn, there is only one fish in our swimpool)))

[Sil]

Balls. That AI flip was accidental, I was meaning to get a sub and wanted to see how one would become AI. So I pressed the button and ended turn. Then I must have forgotten to modify that when I actually did my turn. I was having problems finding the time to properly do the turn, but I did not want to screw the game's balance like I did. I'm very sorry about my noobish mistake. Is there anyway for someone else to undo my error and take over?

[Alpine Joe]

Wow

My black bull who cast carrion woods just died to indies! I didn't know this was a semi-random map with a couple of cyclops protected by jotun skeletons on it.....They were apparently kitted out too. Now my nation is totally screwed as I don't have the slots to recast carrion woods in the next 30 turns..... Oh well I guess i'll have to be more careful not to commit my 700 hp pretender against indies anymore :)

Oh well i'll stay in the game even with my crap scales and make myself an unpleasant target for whoever decides to gobble up my provinces. :(

[Juffos]

What?

I am quite sure I postponed the game before leaving. Oh, well...


Look out, here I come!

[Juffos]

It seems like Gath has been staling.

I will look for a sub.

[Zeldor]

Now I know why he was not responsing to my messages...

[Dragar]

Really?? Bugga. Was just about to launch my counter-offensive on him, beautiful plans wasted now :(

[Juffos]

Yup, Ermor has began their attempt to conquer the world. Send help asap.

[Zeldor]

Lies, Ermor is a friendly nation :)

[Quitti]

I'll be going away for the weekend, so I'd like the next turn postponed until monday.

[Juffos]

Lies, Ermor is a friendly nation :)

The graphs show otherwise.

[secretperson]

Patala has crumbled, yet her revenge will be felt by other means.

[Zeldor]

What unfriendly is about my graphs? :)

[PaGal]

I'm Pythium. Sorry, but I have no internet for а long time. Please set me to AI or find me sub.
I'm very sorry, but it's my real life.

[Anthropos]

What happened to the hosting of this game?
It's been days and days...

[Juffos]

I was asked for postponement.

[Kuritza]

By the way...

How come Pangaea has multiple prophets? I thought its only possible for LA RLyeh.
On turn 18, I beheld one scout Pangaean prophet, and one Centaur commander prophet. Neither was insane.

Is that a feature I didnt hear about yet?

[Kuritza]

Bump. I am still very curious about the means to have two prophets at the same time without being Rlyeh.

[Zeldor]

I guess llamabeast is quite busy, there was also other thing reported and no word from him, and it was almost 15 turns ago.

BTW, Ermor is buying D gems. We can offer other gem types in exchange, lots of N, if you want to put some global up etc :)

[Kuritza]

Not that it's my business, but dealing with a rapidly expanding Ermor is like dealing with the devil.
Man suggests that he's a much more reliable source of nature gems if you need them so badly; special discount if you're at war with Ermor. ^^

As for dual prophet... maybe the player in question has something to say? ))

[Alpine Joe]

Dual-Prophet player here:

yeah its a mystery to me. All of the sudden the make prophet command just reappeared, and I assumed my prophet had been killed and made another one. Now I have two. I don't know if they are both spreading dominion. Normally having two prophets would be super fun but my nation is getting torn apart by Man and Caelum at the moment so its hard to capitalize.

Also my God died, that might be related in some way.

[Ferrosol]

Argatha is willing to trade Death Earth or Water gems in exchange for supply boosters contact us by PM for more details

[Anthropos]

Something is amiss.
My turn file is getting rejected.
It says we are on to turn 23 and i am submitting 22.
I have not received a turn 23 to process.
I did get two messages last night, both saying that hosting would occur in 9 hours, one at midnight and one at 4am (pacific time).

Have I missed a turn?

[Anthropos]

Looks like it was a bug.
Everything is OK, no turn lost.
Thanks to Zeldor for helping me figure out the problem.

I would like to request an extension until Monday midnight pacific time for the next turn.

Bye for now
Anthropos

[Quitti]

I'll be gone until next thursday/friday, so I'd like an extension or at least perhaps we should move to 48h hosting by now.

[Zeldor]

Yeah, 48h may be a good idea.

P.S. Storming as Ermor is 'problematic'.

[Anthropos]

I submit 34, and am now goign away for the weekend.
Please do not host 35 until Monday 6pm PSt.

[Juffos]

I am asking for someone to accept the admin duty, because I am soon going to be defeated and thus removed from the game.

[rtyffg]

I am suddenly have to go away from 10 till 25 and have to find a sub (possibly permanent).

[SciencePro]

I'm interested in joining if someone needs a sub.

[rtyffg]

I'm interested in joining if someone needs a sub.
Maybe you can replace me as R'lyeh then? Can't PM, seems to be turned off.

[SciencePro]

hmmm i tried to send a PM to ryffg but after i clicked submit it didn't appear in my sent messages so i'm not sure if it went through. I turned on my PM setting (strange it is off by default)

anyway, I'm obviously a noob here but I would be happy to take over for R'lyeh. Take out the "z's" from the below to get my email address

ezashzton@zzgmailz.com

[rtyffg]

I agree to this replacement then. Sending description of current situation by PM.

[SciencePro]

okay i am now up-to-speed. Could the admin change the R'yleh email address to mine and re-send the last turn?

[Juffos]

Done and done.

[Ossa]

Ah... now this sheds light on some actions:

Ryleth is just breaking its NAP with marignon and now I know why. I though the old player would have informed you, but marignon and Ryleth are Napped since pretty much the start - we went to fight atlantis together.

[Zeldor]

From what I have seen before R'lyeh got a new player [and got some stales], Marignon got a chance to grab some cheap lands and grab a nice bunch of R'lyeh provs. I guess Marignon hoped that R'lyeh will be set AI or new player won't be so competent? :)

[Ossa]

Ah.. no. I didnt attack Ryleth at any time, and before the old player left I've told him to take all my water provinces to kill off the remaining Atlantian forces.

I counted on further teamwork, actually. Thats why I'm of course rather pissed now;)

[Zeldor]

So you are trying to make an anti-Ermor propaganda and work with more feared R'lyeh at the same time? And also while you are clearly the strongest nation in the game? Don't you feel it's not really going to work together? :)

[Ossa]

No, actually not - and Ermor has long passed the point where it can be stopped. And I'm not winning most of the battles right now;)


And, btw - the game didnt say anything about Machiavellian (sp) rules, so I relied on the fact that a NAP will be honored:/

[Zeldor]

My undead hordes are no match to your elemental royalty and legions of mages. I already lost like 15-20 provs to your armies. Ermor is not so strong. Undead are crap. You can kill thousands and lose nothing.

And I'd say it's hard to honour smth you don't know exists :)

[Ossa]

Now that you opened the second front I'll have a hard time closing it again.

And Rigor Mortis is very bad for my old mages. And... I wonder how far we are from Utterdark.

[Anthropos]

Not to interrupt all this fascinating diplomacy, but unfortuantely the maji of Caelum have been called to the north reagions know as Ca'Naidia and will be in transit for a few days with uncertain internet.

I would like to request that hosting the next turn be postponed until monday the 31st, 6pm PST.
Hopefully even in the chill lands to the north, some AC power and effective internet will be found and I may get the turn in sooner.

Anthropos of Caelum

[Ossa]

@SciencePro: Could you plz respond to me via pm or in this forum?

[Ossa]

Nice work Zeldor. I'll try to remember that. Did you know we were NAPed?

[Kuritza]

So, could anyone update me on the situation?

As far as I understand, Rlyeh for metagaming reasons backstabbed Marignon, the only player with a border to Ermor who was sane enough to try and actually fight him. Since Rlyeh thwarted the only nation that was fighting Ermor with *some* success, Ermor is gonna crush it too; in other words, Rlyeh is supporting the clear winner.

I think Baalz missed something in his 'good players pledge'. Truth told, we can declare Zeldor a winner already.

[Juffos]

R'lyeh, you should read this, it's from the Zebra thread:

"3. The diplomacy is not bound to any ethical rules, you may under no circumstance start metagame whining about broken deals, channel that anger into some roleplayed vendettas instead."

What you are doing is wrong, why do you do this thing?


I would also like to end this game already. If any of you believe to have any possibility of hindering Ermor's growth, PM me.

[Zeldor]

For me it all looks just like Marignon propaganda. From what I know R'lyeh got a new player and he was not informed about any treaties. I as Ermor had no idea that R'lyeh has any agreements with Marignon - rather contrary. I know there were some strange things happening early on that unfortunately were not checked by llamabeast [2 R'lyeh pretenders ?]. I also know that Marignon took some provinces from R'lyeh when he was staling, before new player took over. Maybe they got raided by Atlantis AI and Marignon would give them back to R'lyeh, but I cannot tell if there was offer like that. I can only speak for what I know and saw. R'lyeh and Marignon should write here - I just don't agree with saying bad stuff about R'lyeh only because he subbed into the game and is not according like some people would expect to.

P.S. Marignon killed over 500 of my troops in one battle :(

[Kuritza]

It may be a Marignon propaganda, or it may not, it doesnt matter.

Fact if fact - nobody tries to stop Ermor. Unchecked, growing Ermor becomes unstoppable. Its like 2 x 2. Zeldor, I enjoyed your propaganda in the ingame messages, because its in-character and funny. )) But dont try it here, dont insult our intelligence. :)

Rlyeh just thwarted the only player who tried to do something. He doesnt do that to win, because he wont stand the chance against Ermor either. Metagaming is such a metagaming.

[Zeldor]

Well, I really cannot judge the situation. I am not impressed with all that Ermor threat, but surely I am way less vulnerable now than few turns ago. I lost a lot of provs to Marignon when he attacked me [I was stretched out, no armies nearby, no Rigor Mortis].

You are telling that people don't want to help Marignon fight me. But why would they want to help Marignon win? He has artifacts, elemantal royalty, unique summons, bloodhunting, research, etc. So someone would have to help him do tough war against me, just to get attacked by Marignon later? :)

P.S. Just looked at score graphs, it looks a bit more in my favor, I will admit that. 43 forts and more troops that other players combined.

[Kuritza]

Zeldor........... I begged you to stop this propaganda war, didnt I? Sigh.

Because its possible to stop Marignon. He doesnt have TONS of freespawn, his unique summons arent THAT scary, etc etc. Marignon is just another nation. I know I will have a fair chance of stopping him, should the need arise.
But you cant stop an overgrown Ermor. When people say that LA Ermor becomes unstoppable when not ganged upon, they mean it. Look at the graphs, they are self-explaining. Look at the Hall of fame, who's won the most games in the late age.

You did a good job convincing everyone that you are not scary at all, you really want to be allowed to consume all nations one by one. I understand that wish of yours, who doesnt want an easy victory. But please, when you feed me with such obvious nonsense, I can help feeling insulted.

[Zeldor]

Oh well, are not game threads a part of propaganda? :) If not, then sorry :) But I really feel lucky not to have you as my neighbour :) But few turns ago if Marignon player wanted, I'd have happily switched nations as I really thought he is in better position [I know, I know, switching does not happen and is not fair, but still].

Anyway, Marignon should say something here to solve our dilemma :)

[Kuritza]

:)
Lets just keep playing... Miracles do happen time after time. Who knows, maybe its not as bleak as it seems.

[Zeldor]

Huh, I don't like the situation in the north. At least I hope that Marignon has same feelings about his south.

[Anthropos]

I know its late, but, I would like to appeal for a 48 hour extension on this turn.

[Ossa]

To shed some light on the situation:

I went to help Ryleth in the beginning when Ryleth was at war with Atlantis and loosing. I NAPed to Ryleth even earlier. Once my attack commenced - and, due to my sailers, with a lot of success - Atlantis went AI. I didnt manage to conquer his territory though, as I cant take his water provinces and his monolith pretender is too strong.

During this time Ermor asked me for a NAP. I declined, as I was sure Ermor would only grow stronger in time and I was the prime nation to stop it. In fact, probably the only one, though I was not among the top 5 nation when I declared war on Ermor. I just thought my H3 priests would be enough.

The war started well, until Rigor mortis came into play after I took about 15 provinces from Ermor. Now the front has stalled, and only recently I was able to gain some ground by using an Earth master in combination with the medusa shield and about 14 revigoration. Together with 8 priests.

All my cries for help against this menace went unheard but of for Abyssia, who got attacked my Man before he could do anything.

Then, all of a sudden, Ryleth attacked a province of mine - unsucessfully. I thought this must be due to an insane commander (it cant happen, can it?) and decided to look over it. Next turn, the same happened. I decided to write Ryleth a message. Next turn, he attacked with 300+ troops.

My tries to solve this situation diplomatically failed - though I explained the situation with the NAP to the new player, he announced he was "commited" to the war now and will not turn back.


With Ermor pushing through the oceans for my island homes, and Ryleth going in from the south, I'm temptered to go AI. I cannont stand for more than 3 turns in any sensible way.

So I would definitly vote to end this game and declare Ermor the winner.

[Zeldor]

Well, as we are talking stories I could as well tell mine.

I got it easy early on, with Gath underperforming. His neighbours should have used it too, not let me grab all his provs and his cap. Same for Pythium - got his cap easily. Jomon got into defensive position really fast, so I grabbed his provs with ease [dunno what was his plan with almost no research and really big income]. I had no plans to attack Jomon really, but his massive gold income would mean he could spam so many forts and priests and he'd be a huge threat for me, sooner or later.

I was not prepared at all for war with Marignon - it were provs I just gained, far far from my dominion and my armies, which were fighting Pythium and Gath at that point. So I lost about 15 provs to Mari before I could deploy Rigor Mortis casters and other troops. I then got a chance to regroup, move my armies, get some research done and mass armies to open new fronts, through water, to Marignon cap.

[Juffos]

I staled five turns in a row in the early game due to some misplanning on my part, I tried to regrasp the situation but with Ermor going into offensive there was nothing to do but to deny any income possible for them :)

[Zeldor]

So what's the situation?

[Zeldor]

Yay, I have 45 forts :)

[Anthropos]

I've just sent in this turn.
Would like an extension on the next turn until teusday please.
Sorry I am going slow, real life is hitting me like a ton of bricks right now.

[SciencePro]

wow I've only been playing D3 for a couple weeks and already certain sure do seem pissed at me since i took over Ry'leh:( I don't think there is any good reason for it through...

As far as I understand, Rlyeh for metagaming reasons backstabbed Marignon, the only player with a border to Ermor who was sane enough to try and actually fight him.

Okay, well I guess I see why someone might be mad at me. I can even see why you might assume that from what I said. But that’s not what I meant. Here is what actually went down:

1. As I start subbing for Ry’leh, the previous player informs me that I have NAP’s with Marignon, Ermor and some other stuff.
2. Zeldor is the only one to contact me and offer to work with me. He tells me that Marignon has (since the other player has been staleing) stabbed Ry’leh in the back and taken a bunch of my provinces. He names the specific provinces and the map seems to corroborate what he is saying. Zeldor suggested that I help him and counter-attack Marignon which I agree to.
3. Ossa/Marignon starts whining incessantly about how I attacked him and broke our NAP. I start to get a little annoyed. I tell him that I hope there are no hard feelings and that I am happy to work with him in other games.
4. Ossa PM’s me that, because of what I did in setsumi, he is renouncing our NAP-3 in a different game (Zebra). He sneak attacks me there before I even read the message. Now I am kind of pissed since this is flagrant metagraming which is forbidden in Zebra. I consider whining about it but decide to just let it be.
5. Ossa then sends out a message to all in setsumi whining about how unfair it is that I attacked him and how I am a liar and I can’t be trusted. Now I’m really pissed so I fire back a response pointing out how full of crap he is.

I’m sorry I mentioned Zebra at all, the only reason it even came up is because of Ossa’s metagaming. In fact, Ossa is the ONLY one metagaming here, not me. All I did was call him on his crap.

[SciencePro]

Here is the smoking gun proving ossa is the meta-gamer not me:

Well... Zeldor did a good job then.

Ermor is *the* evil nation in late era games - once they grow over a certain point they cannot be stopped. I've committed myself to stop him in setsumi has I'm the nation with most H3 priests.

Nevertheless, you broke the NAP and intend to carry that war on (which will probably kill me if you do the right thing, as my empire is spread out among so many islands).

That means I cannot trust you. How can I know you will do better in another game? Maybe some player will talk you into something too - so I'll have to rounce our NAP in Zebra immideately.

Sorry, you're new to all this, but a treaty I cannot rely on is too dangerous to keep

[Zeldor]

Huh, I feel a bit bad now too.

I had good relation with R'lyeh since the beginning of the game. I had absolutely no idea he is working with Marignon - I rather got an impression original player would be interested in fighting MAri together, especially looking at the geography. I had no idea they are fighting AI Atlantis together [as it's hard to make alliances against AIs really]. I did see Marignon grabbing former R'lyeh provinces. No idea if they were conquered for some time by AI Atlantis and then took by Marignon, or was it direct attack on weakening and staling R'lyeh [I was creating backup plan in case R'lyeh gets volatile]. I have no idea if Marignon made any contact with new R'lyeh player or if he offered him back the water provs he took. I simply asked R'lyeh for help with Marignon, which at that time seemd to be gaining fast on me and going for victory. SciencePro did a great job as new owner of R'lyeh, doublign provinces, greatly increasing capabilities, income and research. So it is a rant that R'lyeh has at least 2x better player now, one that can really play the nation?

[SciencePro]

Rlyeh just thwarted the only player who tried to do something. He doesnt do that to win, because he wont stand the chance against Ermor either. Metagaming is such a metagaming.

Sigh, of course I am doing it to win. And what I did has nothing to do with what happened in the other D3 game.

I am a noob to dominons but, from watching Survivor (the tv show) it seems to me that a good strategy when there are 10-15 players is to ally with the strongest one. Then when there is just 3-5 left you gang up on the strongest.

Zeldor started PM'ing me and was the only one to contact me. It seemed highly likely that i would get farther in the game working with him than trying to fight him and getting immediately crushed.

I'm working with him now, but if i'm still around later in the game and he is still the strongest, then obviously I will have to join an alliance against him.

The only sense that I am metagaming is that I am trying to be political and win. Obviously if i was truly RP-ing Ry'leh i would just sprout gibberish and attack randomly. But that doesn't seem like a very good strategy.

[SciencePro]

So it is a rant that R'lyeh has at least 2x better player now, one that can really play the nation?

hehe thanks for the nice comments but, as ossa points out he's been kicking my butt in the battles so far. It was easy to climb up the graphs at first because the other player had just been staling. But i obviously have a lot to learn about winning fights.

[Juffos]

The Survivor-technique won't work in this particular game due to Ermor's overwhelming position. Their growth follows the geometric model. Unless you challenge them early on, you lose.

And you lost.

[SciencePro]

Is Ermor really that overpowered? How come they don't win every game then? Shouldn't they get a nerf or something?

It seems to me that Zeldor is winning because he is good politically. He was the only one to contact me for example.

He only has 70 provinces out of a total of over 300. If 3-4 of the other strong empires ganged up on him i bet he would go down easy. If not then then D3 is hilariously unbalanced.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but in this game Ossa appears to have taken on Zeldor more or less single-handedly. So of course he is losing and to be the only one to join him in that quixotic quest would be suicide. But don't go blaming me - if you want to beat Zeldor then try to set up an alliance against him.

So far exactly no one has PM'd me suggesting to ally against Ermor. Or really PM'd me at all to suggest anything for that matter. But yet multiple people have seen fit to complain publicly that i am helping him. That doesn't seem like an effective strategy to me.

[Kuritza]

Well, working for such an overgrown LA Ermor isnt the best idea.... Even LA Rlyeh may have troubles stopping him once he has grown THAT large. :)

P.S.
Sorry Zeldor, I just had to say that. )))))

Is Ermor really that overpowered? How come they don't win every game then? Shouldn't they get a nerf or something?

It seems to me that Zeldor is winning because he is good politically. He was the only one to contact me for example.

He only has 70 provinces out of a total of over 300. If 3-4 of the other strong empires ganged up on him i bet he would go down easy. If not then then D3 is hilariously unbalanced.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but in this game Ossa appears to have taken on Zeldor more or less single-handedly. So of course he is losing and to be the only one to join him in that quixotic quest would be suicide. But don't go blaming me - if you want to beat Zeldor then try to set up an alliance against him.

So far exactly no one has PM'd me suggesting to ally against Ermor. Or really PM'd me at all to suggest anything for that matter. But yet multiple people have seen fit to complain publicly that i am helping him. That doesn't seem like an effective strategy to me.

Ermor isnt winning all games, because usually everyone gangs upon it. Immediately. Kill Ermor first, ask questions later. Because there will be no 'later' if you dont stop that plague.
And, well, sometimes LA Ermor (and LA Rlyeh too) is just banned from LA games.
Despite that, LA Ermor has the most victories in the late age.

And yes, you're right, Zeldor is good politically. And Zeldor is just good. And he is LA Ermor. :)

[Zeldor]

Everyone was talking so much about Ermor all the time that I decided to try them in a game where it's not banned. And I really think people are overestimating it. It's not bad early game [unless you face nation with good archers], then it gets weaker [as anti-undead weapons are easy to come by]. And it can be easily owned by R'lyeh, even much smaller one [it's quite obvious why]. No recruitable troops, no recruitable mages, bad research, bad diversity...

Anyway, if someone wants to give up, I can accept it :) I'm just doing my best to win and it's how you should play that game :) Do you really think that you'd just stop Marignon, when he will have all research done, so many elemental royalty, artifacts and 20-40 additional forts from my lands and that gem income? Ossa should not complain thjat people are not helping him - they are smart enough to know that they'd just help him win. And while we two are fighting and bleeding, they can gain up [mostly Man and Abysia] and get a fighting chance. And R'lyeh trying to grab Marignon lands is a logical consequence of geographical location. Marignon and Atlantis caps are really inside his lands, slowing his movement, hurting dominion and loweoring income. If he got Marignon he'd be able to attack me from many many points and be a major player. He wouldn't have that chance if he decided to attack me together with MArignon.

[Kuritza]

No recruitable troops, no recruitable mages, bad research, bad diversity...

Why have recruitable troops when you get a crapload of them for free? :)
Bad diversity is not just Ermors problem. Look at LA Man, for example. There are always ways to go around it - I am 95% sure you've managed it ;)

Do you really think that you'd just stop Marignon, when he will have all research done, so many elemental royalty, artifacts and 20-40 additional forts from my lands and that gem income?

Sure. :) Its much easier than trying to win an attrition war against Ermor.

But I am sure we wont win if Rlyeh will let YOU claim Marignon's land. Now, it might make sense for Rlyeh to ally with Ermor, and then have a little 1vs1 with him once everyone else is dead. But since in Setsumi you're much bigger than Rlyeh already, and he's rather new, thats not gonna happen.

Not to mention that this scenario is a perfect reason not to let both Ermor and Rlyeh in one LA game... :(

[rtyffg]

Huh, I feel a bit bad now too.

I had good relation with R'lyeh since the beginning of the game. I had absolutely no idea he is working with Marignon - I rather got an impression original player would be interested in fighting MAri together, especially looking at the geography. I had no idea they are fighting AI Atlantis together [as it's hard to make alliances against AIs really]. I did see Marignon grabbing former R'lyeh provinces. No idea if they were conquered for some time by AI Atlantis and then took by Marignon, or was it direct attack on weakening and staling R'lyeh [I was creating backup plan in case R'lyeh gets volatile].
The reason why i have not fought Marignon is simple - failure at both pretender creation and early game research, which made R'lyeh just not ready to fight and needing time to adapt. The only thing seems not quite diplomatic happened is that nap presumes warning before attack, which was absent.

SciencePro did a great job as new owner of R'lyeh, doublign provinces, greatly increasing capabilities, income and research. So it is a rant that R'lyeh has at least 2x better player now, one that can really play the nation?
That one seems correct, looks like i haven't understand R'lyeh ways yet.

[SciencePro]

. The only thing seems not quite diplomatic happened is that nap presumes warning before attack, which was absent.

yeah it was just the very beginning of my second game ever so i didn't understand that. Sorry!

Now that I actaully know what the "+3" means I will abide by it in any future dealings.

[Juffos]

Enough drama already.

This game will be over next Sunday unless I see private messages or forum posts requesting otherwise.

Congratulations to Ermor.

[Zeldor]

Anyway, I'm leaving tomorrow, will be back at 30th. So if the game continues, Micah will sub for me, Juffos can contact him for email.

[Kuritza]

I want to continue, so dont stop this game please. I'll take my chances against Ermor, would be silly to give up without trying.

Hopefully, everyone will learn this lesson and wont ignore Ermor till its too late in future games, despite all warnings.

[Juffos]

I wish you luck. Have fun.

[Kuritza]

You mean that you go AI?
Can I have your stuff? (c) )))

[SciencePro]

okay i'm confused. Are the major players willing to stay in and finish the game? I am if everyone is. Ermor has less than 25% of the map under his control so i don't think he is unbeatable. Hell i had fun working with him but i'm ready to backstab him just to prove everyone wrong about how unbeatable he is. But if the big dudes and/or host are just going to quit then we might as well put this game out if its misery.

So could everyone please speak up now?
Are you willing to stay in and fight if everyone else is?
I am.

[Quitti]

Well, Utgård is willing to play on.

[Anthropos]

I would not mind if the game was ended soon.
It has been taking WAY too much of my week to do these turns.

[Kuritza]

I think we have enough votes to keep fighting.

Anthropos, give up and your subjects will be spared! :)

[Ossa]

Science - I'd really appriciate it if you'd backstab Ermor now just to prove a point;)

By the way, is there any chance we might settle our own personal conflict while this crusade is going on?

[Anthropos]

well after a battle where i cast 26 soul slays and had 1 success
i find that somehow my god got attacked before she moved (which i didnt know was possible)
and died to the first soul slay cast
:(

this was my first multiplayer game of dom3
my opinion of the game is a bit sour today
but i am feeling the randomness of certain things is a bit to much for me
after so many months of investment in careful turns
its pretty disspointing for things to go south so quickly

congrats to man who has expertly dismantled my empire in two or three turns
i feel sad that my merciless conquest of Ctis will not be completed

as i do not want to see man inherit all my empire

i hereby formally renouce all NAP I have with anyone effective immediately
please do not expect that i am going to keep any agreements i may or may not have made with you
nor will i for this point expect that you will keep those you made with me

bye for now
anthropos

[vfb]

Well, since it's Kuritza you are up against, you can perhaps take comfort in the fact that you are being trashed by an excellent player. You might want to try a smaller map with other noobish players next time, if you prefer your lessons in dominions to be a little less brutal. :)

Soul Slay cares about MR, it's not completely random. Penetration items on the caster and MR of the intended victim matter a lot.

[Kuritza]

I always said that MR is an unreliable protection against spells like soul slay, charm etc. As a rule of thumb - never, ever send your SCs out without at least an antimagic amulet. Your goddess had MR 19, which is rather low. And I got lucky, of course. MR of 25 will protect you long enough, most of the time. (I still lost some Arch Devils with MR 25 to WL's charmers back then - some bad rolls). MR of 30 is more or less a proof, but its also really hard to get without gimping your SC.

To intercept armies before they move, you need a teleport or cloud trapeze. Magic movement is resolved before normal movement. Teleporting is a huge advantage, actually, because you can see the equipment of your target, you know his weaknesses and thus can attack him where it hurts.

Btw, a tip: if your SC has astral, give him two pearls. After the battle, script him for returning and move to the lab; if he gets intercepted, he just casts returning and stays alive. (Golems are a notable exception - they are dumb and can ignore scripted returning sometimes). You can also script your lone SC for retreat if you expect an ambush, if there are friendly provinces to retreat to.

Again, let me say that for a first MP game you did just great.

[vfb]

It's generous of you to provide your opponents with advice!

One point I don't agree with: scripting an SC for retreat will get it killed if there are no other commanders of yours in the province, and someone casts an assassination ritual on it.

[Quitti]

Indeed, assasination spells makes retreat order a very hazardous one.

This conversation of yours reminds me of a game where I was ea TC and vfb was R'lyeh. I just kitted out my cyclops with MR items to keep his soul slays busy. None of them got through (Not a big surprise with that high MR). Too bad something got him blind a few turns before, so he was somewhat useless in close combat with his hordes of trolls, or whatever he was throwing at me.

Pic of the aforementioned cyclops here (http://tinyurl.com/yaukl77).

[Kuritza]

Wow. :) You forgot a magebane sword!

Yea, btw. Scripting SC for retreat might auto-kill him when he's earth-attacked or something. But your opponent has to guess that you will retreat, otherwise he just wont cast earth attack on a supercombatant. Sometimes, Dominions reminds me of poker.

[SciencePro]

so how do you get past an MR of 19 anyway? Do penetration items stack with each other? If not then even if you had a S9 mage with a eye of the void your soul slay bonus would still only be 15. Beating someone by 4 on a 2d6 roll doesn't happen very often.

[Quitti]

Yeah, penetration bonus items stack. That's Void eye + spell focus + rune smasher = "cheap" +5 penetration iirc. Then there are RoW and RoS and probably some artifacts that also give penetration if you have third misc slot for the caster. And like you implied, more magic skill gives penetration (+1 penetration for every 2 skill over spell path requirement). At least that's how I remember it.

[Kuritza]

Dice rolls are open-ended here, afaik. On a roll of 6, you roll 1d6 one more time. So actually, MR 18-19 gets penetrated routinely, even without penetration items.
...oh, and maybe some spells get some penetration bonus themselves, as an undocumented feature. At least SS, control and charm tend to work. Maybe its just Murphy's Laws though.

[Quitti]

Yeah, dominion random dice rolls are fun. With a roll of 6, you get 5+d6, with two 6's you get 5+5+d6 and so on, at least that's how the manual states it (so 6 on d6 is not 2d6 but actually d6+5 with option to go on until you don't get a 6 anymore).

[Kuritza]

By the way. I believe Zeldor said something about being away from computer; since Ermor started staling, I guess he didnt find a substitute. As much as I approve of beating the leader senseless, I guess we'll have to wait till he is back or somebody confirms he is in charge of Ermor now.

[Juffos]

I have assigned a sub for Ermor for the time being.

[Micah]

After reviewing the triple stale I have been handed as a sub I request that the game be put on hold until Zeldor returns to deal with this. I believe rollbacks would also be in order due to the disadvantage this places him at, since I was not properly notified of the game's continuation until a great deal of damage had been done.

[Zeldor]

Huh, what happened? I was just told by Micah that there were 3 stales and game did not end. Juffos knew that Micah would be my sub, if game continued and confirmed it. I didn't check what happened, but Micah said it's not pretty.

I haven ever asked for anyone to surrender and it was my enemies that suggested it and claimed that Ermor is unbeatable [I'd call it partly propaganda], but now I'd want either game to be rolled back before my stales or it to be finished, like Juffos was asking for. I'm not going to continue a game when I'm ruined just because email was not changed [not blaming Juffos much here - his nation is dead, so his interest in that game].

[Juffos]

I simply forgot to ask Micah to sub for you. Micah had also forgotten he was supposed to sub for you.

The admin position is still open. I am managing this game against my wishes. Things like this happen.

[Kuritza]

Unbeatable 1vs1 ^^

I remember being thrashed by stales in lategame, so usually I'm the one to support the rollback. But... three turns is just too much of a rollback, sorry. :(
And I also objected against closing the game back then, and still dont want it to be finished.

[Quitti]

Well, I doubt that those stales would really ruin the game of the ermor, unless there are a few warfronts I'm not aware of. But still, should Zeldor really want it, I'd be willing to give him a fair chance and (somewhat grudgingly) allow a few turns of rollback.

[Kuritza]

Three turns? I object, your honor. (c) Too much happened over these three turns for me.
And I wasnt granted even one rollback in Qwerty back then, even though it happened because host didnt postpone game by my teammate's request, and despite we were ganged by the whole map so one turn of staling under such circumstances meant a sure loss.

You can call me spiteful, but now I am against three rollbacks.

[Quitti]

True, Kuritza, you are entitled to your own opinion. I just wanted to sthate that it wouldn't ruin my game, it'd make it harder, true, and more tedious by having to do those turns again, but getting a proper opposition means more to me than winning the game.

[Zeldor]

Well, to sum things up, for my stales:

1. I got suddenly attacked by someone.
2. I lost 4 forts that were not even under siege, when I left.
3. I lost about 25 provinces.
4. I lost lots and lots of troops and mages..
5. and forging and summoning time.

Sure, I have some chances at pulling it back, but I'm not going to do it. I did not request the game to get finished earlier, I did not want anyone to declare me as winner, as I didn't feel it was fair. But now there are only 2 options that can work - either end with Ermor as winner, as no one had objections to that on Saturday, day before deadline, or roll the game 3 turns back. Of course there is no way of not using all that info from new turns. But I simply won't play with 3 stales, so Marignon or Man can win it.

[Kuritza]

I'm sorry? I objected, SciencePro objected, Quitti objected. I am really sorry it turned out like that, but in my opinion you should've contacted Micah yourself.
There is always more than two choices.

[Zeldor]

Micah was contacted, I went on holidays - he was just waiting for the information that game continues and the change of email address, so he can play turns.

And what other solution can you offer? You all stale 3 turns, so I can do something to recover? I lost pretty much 1/3 of my provs. And pretty much whole army on one front, one that was being prepared 10 turns.

[Kuritza]

I had to go AI in such situation. We were holding Nexus with 300+ astral pearls per turn, summoning two Rudras / tartarians per turn etc held like 1/3 of the map etc, but two stales in a row killed us because we were fighting everyone, everywhere. Both times we have asked for and extension, but host didnt read our request in time.
Everyone objected to a rollback, even one rollback, mind you, and the game carried on without us; WL won.

[archaeolept]

WL won after denying a one turn rollback?

There's absolutely no good answer in a situation like this. 3 turns rollback is pretty extreme, otoh it would seem to be partly the fault of the host, who is no longer playing so it is hard to blame him much...

hopefully you guys can figure something out.

[Zeldor]

Kuritza:

I totally understand you, but why should we bring some bad admining from other game here? Is there any solution here that you can suggest? I don't feel like throwing the game by just not playing, but I also don't see the sense in continuing it from where we are now - as you and Marignon profited way too much on my stales.

[Quitti]

Kuritza:

I totally understand you, but why should we bring some bad admining from other game here? Is there any solution here that you can suggest? I don't feel like throwing the game by just not playing, but I also don't see the sense in continuing it from where we are now - as you and Marignon profited way too much on my stales.

Indeed, Don't bring another game with other players or other admin in here, since what happened there does not apply here. No game is the same. This is bit like bickering if breaking a NAP in other game justifies you to break one in this or the next game that happens (and for that reason, I prefer machiavellian rules to diplomacy, but that's another story).

I'm willing to go on with the rollbacks or without, I can understand both of your points of view well enough, the game is tedious as it is without rollbacks even when I don't have huge amount of stuff to do per turn. Also, I'd very much like to have opposition from my opponent if I were Marignon, which in my opinion justifies the rollbacks.

[Kuritza]

I cant think of any solution that would totally suit everybody.
Maybe Marignon could give you a break and let recapture some of the lands you have lost. But a 3-turns rollback? No, my turns are perhaps as micro-intense as yours now, and I managed to do too much over these 3 turns.

[Zeldor]

Yeah, but still, do you want to rather get 52 turns wasted, instead of 3? You have stated your aggressive position against Ermor many times, so why should only Marignon be the one to help redo the situation? So you get even easier win?

[Micah]

Hmm, if the primary complaint is an objection to the extra MM this will cause I'd suggest that everyone else stale 3 turns to let Zeldor catch up, thus not undoing any work done by the other nations. But, with a bit of a twist, since letting him run rampant for 3 turns with advance knowledge of stales might be a bit much, 3 turns in a row.

The full suggestion is this: For the next 4 turns every other nation gets to submit a single .2h file. This prevents Zeldor from fully abusing his advance knowledge since another nation can still react at any time, but does give him a powerful advantage. It also takes the situation and makes it into a (hopefully) fun mind game for everyone instead of a complete game-buster...use your turn early to fall back, or hold onto it to counter what Zeldor sets up...the choice is yours. =)

[Kuritza]

I dont want him to redo as well, I just make suggestions. I didnt take advantage of your stales, as you can see, and my only wish is to continue this game without rolling back.
And I am not affraid of wasting 52 turns, because with well-developed Marignon and Rlyeh my chances are quite slim anyway. This game wont be boring for me.

[Zeldor]

But if it continues like that I'm not playing. Simple as that. We should also hear smth from Ossa.

[SciencePro]

meh there is no honor in attacking an opponent who is staling due to an accidental mis-communication. I vote roll back to the first turn zeldor staled.

on the other hand zelor should accept some responsibility for checking on his sub but it was an accident so the most fair solution seems to do the rollback.

If juffos doesn't want to admin then someone else should take over. I would be willing to do it but it might make more sense to pick an experienced player.

[Zeldor]

I'd do it if I could. I was on holidays, without any access to computer.

Anyway, I'd be happiest with some solution that let that game continue, but with equal chances for everyone, as it was before stales.

[Kuritza]

I have won a war during these three turns, and it has nothing to do with any stales. I refuse to roll my victory back - it was tedious, and I took risks. Now I have to start it over?
I am not playing if we roll back. And closing game would be silly because there are still enough men standing.

[Micah]

How about my idea Kuritza?

[SciencePro]

sigh. :re:

zeldor and kuritza is there any way you can work out a compromise instead of just both threatening to quit?

or, if you do want to quit, can I have all your stuff? ;)

[Kuritza]

Micah's idea or something along these lines might also work. I was going to offer one rollback + some compensation to Ermor, like letting him freely reclaim some lands he has lost during the next turn.

[SciencePro]

Did anyone take Zeldor's territory other than Ossa? Maybe Ossa will be amenable to retreating from his gained territory since he got it due to accidental stales. That way Kuritza could keep whatever territory he fairly took from Caelum/Arco

[Quitti]

I did take some ground too from Ermor, not much though.

Micah's idea about everyone staling for 3 turns out of four would probably work in this case, but it'd require everyone to agree to it. I don't really see it as a good enough solution since there is more in the game going on than just the stuff around Ermor (mainly the man-arcos/whatever relations). Still, it would not solve the problem - Ermor has lost a lot of troops (not unreplaceable though I guess, but it does hurt him).

[Kuritza]

How about one turn to retreat or prepare yourself, and then two stales by everyone? I think two 'free' turns that you can count on is more or less equal to three accidental stales.

[Quitti]

Would work for me, but still, people staling widens the gap between those who have more gem income/gold income (Especially since you, Kuritza, have two gem producing globals on) and those with less of both. Research probably isn't an issue this late in the game. I know that I'm not likely to be in the race to eventually win the game, but I'm still not willing to throw the game. It'll be another experience to figure out new things, and learn more from the game.

[Kuritza]

It also works for Ermor, who gets more freespawn and also has a huge gem income. So all in all, it should suit him. Two stales are better than three rollbacks in my book.

[Quitti]

True, but I still want to hear what Ossa has to say. And I still think the 4 turns out of which one you can make is somewhat better in terms of balancing the game for ermor when compared to 1 turn to prepare + 2 stales.

Still, Zeldor and Ossa should voice their opinions.

[Kuritza]

I'm affraid we wont read Ossa's opinion on this forum, he seems to prefer ingame messages. :(

P.S.
You say that stales widen the gap, yet you suggest that 3 stales is better than two? ^^

[Quitti]

Not in that aspect, they aren't. But two turns of free time for ermor with one turn of getting ready for it is worse than the 4/1 scheme suggested by Micah. I don't like either, but if we were to try the stale-thing, I'd prefer Micah's way because it gives Ermor more time to recuperate and gives a certain edge in the game because we can still react if something goes very wrong very quickly.

[Zeldor]

I have PMed Ossa to hear his opinion, still waiting. I of course would prefer an option of no-staling, but it would pretty much require something from other players for Ermor, so I can recover from losing 1/3 of my provs and not getting 3 turns of forging etc. And I can assume that Man was preparing to attack me for that time, so if Kuritza does not like the stales option, maybe he can suggest some other reparation?

Anyway, Juffos should probably send an email to all players, so they at least know the situation and can voice their opinion. Abysia, C'tis, Arco are not posting here anything at all. So even if we agreed on smth, they'd have no idea about it. And most people submitted their turns already.

[Kuritza]

Staling is OK to me. But I'd like to see 2 stales, not three. After all, things like that happen and you are not attacked by everyone from all sides yet.
2 bonus turns should make it up for three stales in my opinion. If you want some extra compensation from other players, post yours suggestions.

Let me clarify my position: we are not guilty that Ermor staled. People do stale time after time, and they dont demand compensation from all other players for that.
Three stales in a row is damn dramatic indeed, catashtrophic even, but I dont feel oblidged to offer a 100% compensation because I didnt cause it nor did I benefit from it anyhow. 2 extra turns should be enough to get revenge.

P.S.
How about a NAP+3 from me as a compensation? I will declare war against Ermor soon enough indeed, but this way you will have your 3 turns.

[Zeldor]

I am not demaning 100% compensation. I simply wish that stales did not occur and all could continue, like I was here and played. I am pretty sure that I'd have at least as many provs as before without that stales. Anyway, we need Ossa's opinion, as he is the one other major power and would be hit hardest by force stales [and well, he gained most from my stales too].

[Ossa]

Hmm... maybe I'm the wrong person to be asked now.

I was nearly wiped out from this game by a NAP break. Zeldor - though he just made suggestions - has at least some kind of responsibility, or that's at least the way I still see it.

Lets say, I'm not in the mood for any great compensation for these stalls. I've also lost provinces and armies due to stalls before and seldom got compensated.

And, though Ermor lost some ground, his armies were still increasing and he is still the uncontested #1 in this game.

So I vote for no, no compensation at all. Or well, maybe noone attacks him for 2 turns while he can reorganize his armies.

[Zeldor]

Says a person with 1 early stale... Really, you call taking 18 provs from me, a fort, killing over 1k troops, tens of commanders as bad as someone breaking a NAP he didn't know exists and just barely taking few provs within few turns?

[Juffos]

SciencePro is the new admin. Please pester him instead of me :(

[Micah]

I don't see what NAPs have to do with stales. It seems to be in questionable taste to let in-game events influence administrative/out of game decisions.

In-game choices should be made in pure self-interest, given the stated game objective of becoming god and sending your opposition to the depths of Tartarus for all eternity. I would hope that out-of-game decisions should be made with a bit more of an enlightened view, with a consideration to PLAYING the game in a more-or-less fair manner, not just WINNING the game. Leave the low blows in-character.

[SciencePro]

Okay so Juffos has left me in charge of this mess. Let’s have a vote. I will be accepting nominations for proposed remedies to our dilemma for the next 48 hours. Then voting will be available 48 hours. To vote you will rank all of the nominated options in order from most preferred to least preferred. All votes and nominations must be posted here in the forum for everyone to see.

To determine the winning option I will enter the ranked votes here: http://students.cec.wustl.edu/~rhl1/rbvote/calc.html . The winning option will be determined using the Schulze method.
To start things off I propose the following options based on the previous discussion here:

Option A: Do nothing and continue the game as normal
Option B: Complete turn 56 as normal then run turns 57 and 58 with only Ermor submitting turns. Turn 59 would resume as normal
Option C: Roll back to Turn 53.

Suggestions for additional options will be accepted here on this forum until 1:30 GMT on Sunday Oct. 2.

[Micah]

I'll resubmit my earlier proposal for 3 stales/1 turn, though I suppose I can't actually vote for it.

Alternatively, amending option B to include 2 immediate stales would be much more equitable than the current proposal, since allowing a preparation turn would prevent him from inflicting any significant damage within 2 turns' time. Or adding that as a separate option in addition to B.

[SciencePro]

Okay so you mean?

Option D: Roll back to turn 55. Then agree that for turns 55, 56, 57, and 58 Ermor can submit 2h every turn but the other nations can only submit ONE 2h of that player's choice. Turn 59 will continue as normal.

Option E: Roll back to turn 55. Complete turn 55 and 56 with only Ermor submitting 2h. Continue the game as normal with turn 57

When making nominations please be as specific as possible and reference specific turn numbers.

[Micah]

I was referring to whatever the current turn is, no rollbacks.

So: Option D: For turns 56-59 non-Ermor players submit a single non-blank .2h file, Ermor plays all turns. (Blank .2h files should be used for all turns so Zeldor can't tell in advance if a player will be staling, or force people to wait until the last 5 minutes to submit turns, etc.)

Option E: Everyone but Ermor stales 56 and 57. Continue as normal with 58.

[Kuritza]

Too many options, bad poll. Cut it down to three.

My vote is B (current B)

[Quitti]

Well, I suppose B is best from the first three... I wouldn't mind the rollbacks but there are certainly people who can't tolerate them due obvious reasons.

[Kuritza]

Regarding obliterated Ermor armies.... one look at the Armies graph is enough, I think. :)

Ok, so my hit-parade is:

B (one turn for preparations, two stales)
A (proceed as normal)
E (with one exception - I will move fetish charm from a dying scout to my lab. As I already stated, I didnt benefit from the stales so imho I shouldnt suffer.)

[viccio]

option B

[Ossa]

A
(with B being second)

[SciencePro]

Please wait until everyone gets a chance to submit any suggestions before deciding your vote. When you do vote, please rank all available choices.

a ranked voting system allows all options to be heard equally. It works much better than a traditional voting system where you are severely limited by the choices decided ahead of time. For more information on the benefits of a ranked voting system see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method

[SciencePro]

I was referring to whatever the current turn is, no rollbacks.

So: Option D: For turns 56-59 non-Ermor players submit a single non-blank .2h file, Ermor plays all turns. (Blank .2h files should be used for all turns so Zeldor can't tell in advance if a player will be staling, or force people to wait until the last 5 minutes to submit turns, etc.)

Option E: Everyone but Ermor stales 56 and 57. Continue as normal with 58.


hmmmm i didn't realize this is possible. If you submit a blank file as a 2H then won't the server reject it as an improper file? People have already submitted turn 56 so will a blank file really cause the server to revert their submitted status to a staled status?

[Isokron]

I would say a then b. Im not really involved in the fighting anyway.

[Zeldor]

I'd say that Marignon profited way too much from my stales for 2 turns to make good enough difference - he had armies ready and able to grab my provs. And he killed all my troops in other fronts, so he can just happily sit and watch while all I do in 2 turns is move armies. Sure, I got more troops than before, but they are everywhere and mostly weak chaff. Having over 1k amphibian troops with mage support, items etc is a totally different story. So if Marignon is so inclined to continue the crusade, I hope he'd be also willing to make the fight fair.

[Kuritza]

More troops than before after 3 stales despite all Marignon's efforts kind of proves my theory that LA Ermor is *designed* to be a 'force of Evil' that has to be ganged by the whole world if that world wants to survive.
:)

[Anthropos]

Hmm,

As it was my empire that Man dismantled during those turns.
I would love a rollback so I could try an actual defense this time , not get my god killed etc etc.
:)

In general, I have been very impressed by the sportsmanship of both Zeldor and Kuritza.
I am not so invested in the game, as I joined as a sub with 5 stale turns and suboptimal pretender/domain choice (from my opinion), so my goal was learning.

I vote as follows:

If kuritza and zeldor can both vote together on an option, I support that decision.
Else, end the game.

Thanks so much for teaching me my first online MP dom3 game.
It was a blast, just WAY too much time spent.

Please message me if you ever want another noob for a blitz, I prefer quick turns and rapid resolution. (Which is why I have been playing League of Legends lately ...)

Bye for now
Anthropos

[SciencePro]

I was referring to whatever the current turn is, no rollbacks.

So: Option D: For turns 56-59 non-Ermor players submit a single non-blank .2h file, Ermor plays all turns. (Blank .2h files should be used for all turns so Zeldor can't tell in advance if a player will be staling, or force people to wait until the last 5 minutes to submit turns, etc.)

Option E: Everyone but Ermor stales 56 and 57. Continue as normal with 58.

okay i will leave these in since they were suggested, but there is a problem with these. As far as I know there is no way to verify if someone sent a "blank" 2h file. Therefore, options D and E would rely on everyone be willing to cooperate. And there would be no way to verify if anyone actually followed instructions or not.

With A,B, and C there is no such problems. As admin I can implement those with or without anyone's cooperation. So i prefer those options to the ones Micah suggested. But I want to to be democratic instead of despotic so let's vote.

[SciencePro]

Time to vote! There are five options that have been suggested. Please RANK ALL OF THESE in order from most preferred to least preferred. All votes must be posted in the open here on the forum. Any votes PM'd to me will be posted here. Polls are open for 48 hours.

Option A: Do nothing and continue the game as normal

Option B: Complete turn 56 as normal then run turns 57 and 58 with only Ermor submitting turns. Turn 59 would resume as normal

Option C: Roll back to Turn 53.

Option D: For turns 56-59 non-Ermor players submit a single non-blank .2h file, Ermor plays all turns. (Blank .2h files should be used for all turns so Zeldor can't tell in advance if a player will be staling, or force people to wait until the last 5 minutes to submit turns, etc.)

Option E: Everyone but Ermor stales 56 and 57. Continue as normal with 58.

[SciencePro]

My vote in order from most to least preferred:

B>C>A>E>D

[Dragar]

There's no option to end game rather than try and untangle a huge mess that is bound to leave players resentful and unhappy?

Within the options as stated I have no personal preference

[Micah]

It's simple enough to check the server logs if there's any suspicion of people trying to cheat by submitting extra turns, though I hope we would be above that sort of thing.

[Quitti]

D, B, E, C, A

- Also, we should move to 24h or 27h hosting for the turns everyone is supposed to stale if we end up into one of those results - Zeldor would need to have to work a bit more, but it'd speed up the process where we can't do anything.

[SciencePro]

There's no option to end game rather than try and untangle a huge mess that is bound to leave players resentful and unhappy?

Within the options as stated I have no personal preference

i gave the opportunity for anyone to submit any option they wanted. You chose not to participate. So don't blame me if you don't like the options!

[Dragar]

As soon as an admin message directed me to the forums I came to the thread and replied, forgive me for not checking the forum over the brief period this all happened...

[Ossa]

A, B, E, C, D

[Kuritza]

B
A
E
D
C

[viccio]

B A C D E

[Anthropos]

Option C: Roll back to Turn 53.
Option A: Do nothing and continue the game as normal
Option D: For turns 56-59 non-Ermor players submit a single non-blank .2h file, Ermor plays all turns. (Blank .2h files should be used for all turns so Zeldor can't tell in advance if a player will be staling, or force people to wait until the last 5 minutes to submit turns, etc.)
Option E: Everyone but Ermor stales 56 and 57. Continue as normal with 58.
Option B: Complete turn 56 as normal then run turns 57 and 58 with only Ermor submitting turns. Turn 59 would resume as normal

[SciencePro]

As soon as an admin message directed me to the forums I came to the thread and replied, forgive me for not checking the forum over the brief period this all happened...

i sent out the original request as both an email and forum post and waited more than 50 hours (from 01:37 GMT on 10-2 to 04:32 on 10-4) I'm not sure why you wouldn't have gotten it then.

Anyway, voting will remain open until at least 05:00 GMT on 10-6. After that we will resume play as expediently as we can.

[SciencePro]

It's simple enough to check the server logs if there's any suspicion of people trying to cheat by submitting extra turns, though I hope we would be above that sort of thing.

yes, my concern is that for the current turn (56) people have already submitted turns and as far as i know there is no way to delete the orders without rolling back the hosting results from the previous turn. The only thing we can do is request that everyone re-submit the 2h files with no new orders. The log will not show whether a 2h file contained new orders or not, just whether one existed.

and yes, I hope we'd be above any shenanigans but everyone might not feel obligated to cooperate with an option they didn't agree to. Or they might not be bothered to read all the posts/emails etc... Options A, and C don't require any cooperation whatsoever and B only requires a tiny bit (refrain from sending new 2h's during the short time window while Zeldor is doing his free turns).

[Kuritza]

Cant help saying that this poll is just baaaaaaaaaaaad.

A) This variant is unacceptable for Zeldor. If we choose A, congratulations - we've lost 10 days only to continue playing without Zeldor.
B) It seem this version has most votes by now.
C) This variant is unacceptable for me. Do you really want me to go AI to make up for Ermor's stales?
D)This is simply an overcompensation. Giving Ermor 3 free turns in late game, with just one turn for us to save our armies, when he already has a huge lead in armies and gems (except me maybe), is an I.WIN button - Marignon will die with no hopes to recover.
E) It 'almost' ok, but it punishes me for Ermor's stales. I fail to see how this is fair.

[Zeldor]

I'd surely prefer to have some agreement by biggest players than voting like that. But well, it's not like we didn't try. I will wait till everyone makes a vote and add mine, checking if it can make any difference, as I'd prefer to not vote about a matter that is about me.

[SciencePro]

Cant help saying that this poll is just baaaaaaaaaaaad.


Okay obviously I wasn't clear before. Let me say it a little louder: YOU CAN SUGGEST WHATEVER OPTION YOU WANT! Please do that now. If people are interested in whatever option you come up with they can re-submit their vote.

There is no fear of "splitting the vote" because the schulze system will figure out what would have won in a pairwise runoff between the two best options.

So could we please try to make some kind of productive suggestion instead of just griping, complaining, and threatening to quit.

Dragar has suggested:
Option F: Declare the game finished and Ermor the winner.

Kuritza has suggested:
something? Fill me in here. What do you want to do?

[SciencePro]

I'd surely prefer to have some agreement by biggest players than voting like that.

I don't think it is fair to exclude the "little" players in a decision that will affect them too.

Just because a player doesn't have a realistic chance of getting 1st place in the game, he might still enjoy playing his turns and learning more about the game. It wouldn't seem right to submit a big rollback or force stales on them without allowing them the same chance to weigh in as everyone else.

[Kuritza]

Okay obviously I wasn't clear before. Let me say it a little louder: YOU CAN SUGGEST WHATEVER OPTION YOU WANT! Please do that now. If people are interested in whatever option you come up with they can re-submit their vote.

I already voiced my opinion, in the very beginning. We should have just continued because 3-turns rollback and forced stales are absurd. Bad stuff happens, there's nobody to blame for it. Continue if you can.

Ok, we tried to make an agreement, we suggested some variants. Micah did, I did, you did. We tried. But in my opinion its either everybody agrees on something, or we just go on as is.
I can assure you that I will quit this game if we rollback 3 turns after our democratic poll. Or, for example, if we decide on 3 forced stales with one turn in-between, and Ermor takes that opportunity to raid the hell out of me somehow.
Or is Man going AI because of these stales a better result than Ermor going AI?
If we cant continue normally, we should close this game without a winner.

P.S.

Well, I have another solution. There are 10 players in this game; if one player can ask for a 3-turns rollback, so can others, right?
I vote for a 30-turns rollback. Then its fair for everyone!

[Ossa]

/givecookie_to_Kuritza

Well said.

[Kuritza]

Then again, just closing the game is still punishing these of us who didnt stale and just want to keep playing. ^^

[SciencePro]

okay so I tried to help the group come to a fair solution. But obviously I have failed completely as a leader.

Since my approval rating is hovering at exactly 0% there is no point to me continuing as admin. The admin password is painintheass

Good luck to anyone who wants to step up and take over.

[Ossa]

Actually you did a very good job - maybe we should just let the poll stay up one more day and then count the votes.

[Zeldor]

Huh, I think you are doing really well. Way better than Juffos. I only think that poll is a bit too much, as it seems people would be ok [well, by ok I mean pissed as much] as with you making a decision and just presenting it. I really really hope you won't get discouraged and give up on any admining, it usually does not have problems like that.

BTW, I'd prefer continuing without stales if I could only get a diplomatic agreement with Marignon and Man. I can only object to that because I know that MArignon and Man are going to fight me and with that stales I have 0% chances to win against both of them. I am not even sure if I could kill Man or Marignon alone.

[Juffos]

Hey, I didn't do anything during this except leaning back and eating popcorn, you can't compare me to him :)

It seems like the only way to end this drama with no casualties is to declare the game an unlimited stalemate works. Guild won. No regrets.

Comments?

[Quitti]

I like the "everyone loses" part - except that I don't want to lose! I want to be vanquished like a REAL god! Me! Me! Why isn't anyone paying any attention?!

[SciencePro]

Well thanks for the positive comments but, as I thought, it may be too late to save this game.

Someone has changed the admin password and posted a cute new status message. I don't know who did it. Maybe it's better if we just forget the whole mess every happened.

[Ossa]

Meh... :( I liked this game.

[Kuritza]

Perhaps it wasnt such a good idea to post the password.
Postponing the game for 10 days and making this poll wasnt a good solution too, but now we are screwed. But at least I will be able to go on vacation without worrying about this game.

Whoever did this dumb prank - thanks for making me waste all this time for such a stupid ending.

By the way, this is JUST what I was saying. One player staled, and instead of continuing this game, maybe reaching some diplomatic solution, this madness with 3-turns rollback (why not 30, indeed) or forced stales ensued, so in the end this game was ruined for everyone instead of just one player.

I have learned from my mistake in Qwerty. Too bad I have to learn from the same mistake again, without even repeating it.

P.S.
Anyway, I think Llama can fix the problem. If we ask him for it, of course. But it looks like some of us just dont want to continue.

[SciencePro]

Perhaps it wasnt such a good idea to post the password.

it was the only way i could think of to stop all the complaining.

If someone wants to take some leadership then talk to lamabeast and take the game over. Otherwise it is time to put the game out of its misery.

[Kuritza]

Ok.

I think we need at least five votes (sorry, more votes) to continue this game, with or without Ermor or anybody else who doesnt want to play. Then we'll find some diplomatic solution.
I'd prefer us all to give Ermor a 3-turns NAP, and let him push these who atacked him one province back. I mean, reclaim all provinces he currently has a border with, that were his before the stales. Then he will have some more time to recover, move fresh spawn etc.

These who attacked him still get to hold some new provinces, so it should be a good solution for them too. Better than closing game anyway.

I vote for it, so 4 more votes please.

[Micah]

Kuritza, your suggested compensation is about as useful as a band-aid on a severed limb. It not only leaves Ermor worse off in terms of army losses and positioning, but provinces and forts as well. It also doesn't do anything to help Zeldor "catch up" with you or the rest of the players, leaving you with a three turn time advantage on top of the damage inflicted.

The only acceptable solutions to restore some semblance of balance to the game involve stales or rollbacks, IMO, though Zeldor can decide what he's willing to accept if there's still a discussion going on. There is likely going to have to be meaningful compromise for anything to be salvaged from this wreck, and your weak suggestions make me doubt that you're really that interested in reaching an agreement if it harms you in any way. You sat back for a full week while Ermor staled and didn't say a word as far as I can tell, so you're at least somewhat complicit in letting things get to this point.

That being said, I don't think it would be unreasonable for any staling agreement to restrict attacks on you, since you didn't attack Ermor while he was staling. It IS reasonable for you to lose 2 or 3 turns worth of forging/research/etc. so that you don't gain a time advantage over Ermor.

I still believe that 2 immediate stales would be sufficient, or some 3/1 hybrid scheme, but 2 turns of stales with a turn of preparation is an extremely weak solution in comparison to the damage that was done while Ermor was staling, since he had armies completely surrounded and wiped out, retreats cut and forts sieged and stormed, all of which can't really be done in 2 turns if your opponent simply moves a province away from the border.

Just my thoughts on the matter, as an experienced player and a (mostly) neutral observer, though I obviously would like to come up with a solution that works for Zeldor since I was supposed to be subbing for him, so take that bias as you will.

[Kuritza]

Yes, I am absolutely unwilling to reach a compromise that harms me, because

1) Its not my fault that he staled. He should continue or go AI, but not make us close this game.
2) I didnt benefit from his stales. I didnt capture his land. Why should I suffer?

Despite that, I am willing to try and find *some* solution. You seem to imply that we have to offer him a 100% compensation - WHY?

Let me repeat myself: I posted here that Ermor stales as soon as I noticed that its his third stale. I dont regularily check stales, you know. And Ermor got some random 'cultist attacks' events, so I was getting scout reports that Ermor attacks Marignon. He even attacked me during the stales that way. :)

To sum it up - we arent guilty that Ermor staled, and I want to continue. If there are more players who want to continue as well, we have every right to do so. If they are willing to compensate Ermor for his own stales somewhat - the better, and I hope that it will convince him to stay.
But I am not willing to lose all my fetishes because Ermor staled. Or rollback my entire successful war effort.

BUMP: Post here if you want to continue this game with no stales and rollbacks, compensating Ermor for the stales via diplomacy.

[Micah]

1) It's not really anyone's fault that Zeldor staled, he took reasonable precautions and tried to find a sub instead of holding up the game by asking for a delay. It didn't work out properly, and now everyone should be willing to compromise a bit to try to sort things out. It's a crappy situation, so crappy things have to happen to resolve it, trying to dump all of the responsibility and consequences on Zeldor for something that was in large part not his fault isn't a good solution.

2) Claiming that you don't benefit from your biggest rival losing a quarter of his provinces, 3 turns worth of orders, and sizable forces and positioning is farcical.

You should "suffer" because otherwise you gain a sizable advantage for no in-game reason, just an administrative failure. And I don't see how a few stales with no one attacking you really constitutes a large degree of suffering anyhow.

As to why I think 100% compensation is ideal: Because, as I said, I don't believe Zeldor should be punished in-game for an out-of-game oversight that was far from exclusively his fault, so 100% seems like an ideal number to shoot for.

That being said, I think both of my proposed solutions are somewhat conservative, and that he'll come out in worse relative shape than he was in 3 turns back. Obviously a perfect compensation is impossible, but I think my suggestions would hit about 80-90%, leaving Zeldor slightly worse off, but as close as we can get to an equitable solution while making sure he doesn't actually come out ahead.

It may be reasonable to allow Jotun's army in 262 to retreat if immediate stales occur, but looking at Zeldor's turn that is the only exposed army he has access to. Marignon's assaults wiped him off the islands wholesale and he now has nothing there to counterattack with. Watering that down even further with a full turn of preparation is so weak as to be be nearly useless.

[Kuritza]

Fewer fetishes. Immediate stales are going to kill scouts with items worth 10 gems each.

And yes, I feel sorry for his plight, 3 stales is painful. And still I dont feel oblidged to compensate because things like that happen. I wont be given same luxury in any other game, just as I wasnt allowed rollbacks before. Thus, I am surprised that this game was stopped because of one man's stales.

Yes, he did take precautions, but they were not enough. I am subbing a friend right now, in 3 games, and he doesnt stale there because he knew he is leaving and forwarded me the incoming turns.
Accept that your have made an error and learn from it, not make your fellow players suffer for it. Do you really have to stop this game just because you are less likely to win it now?

[Zeldor]

I made an error? Where? Game admin told me game is probably ending on Sunday, but I contacted Micah to sub for me in case it does not happen. I contacted game admin and told him Micah is my sub. I got confirmation. What else could I do? Take his phone number, so I can make an international call from holiday to check that he really changed the email address to Micah's?

And why do you keep on bringing bad admin behaviour from other games here? And try to justify my losses with that? If you don't play here to win and have no hopes to do that, why are you trying to make absolutely sure I have no chances to win?

You keep on repeating the word "fair" all the time, but you must have a completely different understanding of it's meaning. I never asked for succession, I never said I am going to crush everyone. I never said I want 100% compensation for my stales. All I want is fair chance. And you are sending silly counteroffers, showing that you are willing to do almost anything to negate that. All that while complaining about WraithLord's victory. Don't you think it's exactly what he did? You think people like his behaviour? I am pretty sure there is a bunch of players that wouldn't want him in their games.

I have sent PM's to both Kuritza and Ossa. I am willing to negotiate - if other side is too. So far I don't see it. I could agree to 0 or 1 stales from others. But in exchange for something. And by smth I mean a fair chance to get back to the game.

I really don't feel like volunteering myself for punishement over smth I didn't do. I'm not going to continue like that - as I'd simply prefer to join new game instead of watching my empire get devoured for out of game reasons. I also wouldn't turn AI, as that game could as well be finished if it happened. I simply can't understand how anyone else would prefer not having the game finished [or getting meaningless finish] over getting some agreement.

[Kuritza]

Exactly.

You prefer to ruin this game for everyone because its ruined for you after YOUR stales. Its a damn bad behaviour if you ask me. Selfishness incarnate.

And no, its not just WL who complained against a rollback. There were also Ossa/Klagrok team and Meglobob who were playing. They ALL objected against ONE rollback, almost calling me a cheater and a liar meanwhile. And no again, I dont call his victory 'unfair' now, WL earned it and it was a good lesson for me.

I make silly counteroffers? I didnt bring up anything as ABSURD as 'rollback three turns or close the game calling me a victor' yet. My offer may seem silly to you, but it doesnt mean you are right.

You are willing to continue with '0 or 1 stales from others. But in exchange for something'.
Cool. That something you offered was 'promise you wont attack me until I defeat Marignon'. You dont understand just HOW insolent it sounds, do you? You had a VERY good start, with new players allowing you to absorb other races one by one, affraid of attacking you. And now you offered me to leave you alone until you finish Marignon too? And you call it a 'fair chance'?!

I want to finish this game with no stupidity like 3-turns rollback, 3-turns stales and letting LA Ermor conquer the rest of the map without interfering anyhow. Let these who attacked you during stales return your lands, I didnt take them. All I can offer is a NAP, five turns or so, and I think this offer is good.

>>I simply can't understand how anyone else would prefer not having the game finished [or getting meaningless finish] over getting some agreement.
I'm all for getting some agreement. Just not 'bend over and die', thank you. If you can offer something REASONABLE, not 'let me defeat Marignon and then crush you', please do it. Demanding that Marignon returns you ALL your lands is also unreasonable and proves that you arent really looking for 'a good chance'.

Its YOUR problem that you staled. I have NO GODDAMN IDEA why Juffos told you this game is over while there were many votes to keep playing in the game thread. So I REALLY want to read what other players think about this game. If we still have enough players willing to play on, we will play on.

[Calahan]

I have followed this game since it started, mainly out of my personal interest of wanting to see how LA Ermor faired (as I started a game as LA Ermor at the exact same time this game kicked off). But I must say there are several things about the recent problem that confuse me. Especially the opinions that some of the current players have regarding it.....


A) Some players gained nothing by Ermor staling.

Urrhh, come again? How can that sort of statement possibly be true. If the game leader stales for three turns (and by the concession talk, I assume Ermor was the leader pre-stales) then every single nation gains from it. No exceptions. Everyone has gained because the game leader has become weaker. A nation always becomes weaker when they stale. It is certain that some nations gained more than others, but to say that some nations gained nothing is an absolutely ridiculous idea. I see some experienced and talented players voicing this opinion, so please come on, be real about this. You all know that every single nation has gained from Ermor staling, so anyone saying otherwise is only doing themselves an injustice as a player.


B) Nobody is at fault.

Again, What?!? Firstly the admin is directly to blame for not doing what was necessary to ensure the sub for Ermor was installed correctly. If the thread comments are correct, then Zeldor informed the admin who his sub would be if the game continued (as there was talk of it ending). And again if the thread comments are correct, then this was also confirmed by the admin. I've admined several games now, and I can't see what more Zeldor could have done to ensure a sub got setup for him. Apart from of course choosing to vacation somewhere with internet access (but that last comment is just my attempt at humour)

When I admin a game, if a player informs me of the required info to sort out their sub, and I fail to do it, then it's directly my fault. Not the players. And if this scenario did happen to me, then I'd put my hand up and say I messed up big time, and make a firm decision on what to do about it. Just because an admin has been knocked out of a game is not any excuse for an admin to abandon his admin duties to that game. An admin has a responsibility to ensure the game runs smoothly, is getting played fairly (in an out-of-game sense), and that all necessary admin jobs are getting done. And this responsibity does not end until the game ends, or a replacement admin is found.


Also, I always think the players in the game are at fault if they do not point out that a nation is staling. The first stale is of course almost impossible to spot coming, but once a nation has staled, the fact that they have staled should always be pointed out to the admin. And I accept maybe the first stale is not always spotted on the staling logs, although from having played LA Ermor, there is no way I can believe it would not be blindingly obvious in-game to anyone fighting them that they were staling.

So while an obvious reason can be found to not have prevented the first stale. And even plausible reasons to not have prevented the second stale. It really is becoming abuse to allow a nation to stale three consecutive turns without the players in the game having attempted to prevent it. Especially the game leading nation. If the admin was notified about the staling and chose to ignore it, then I most certainly apologise. But I only see one reference to it on the thread itself, and I believe that was after Ermor had already staled three times. It also has to be taken into account that before the stales, Ermor had a perfect track record for turn submission. So it can not be claimed that Ermor was a regular staler in any way, and that these recent stales were ignored due to Ermor staling being 'a regular thing'.

I'd like to believe that all players are here for a fair fight. And if that is true, then all players have a constant responsibility to ensure that a fair fight is taking place at all times. And by fair I mean fair as in out-of-game, as fair in-game is a completely different matter. And beating up a staler is certainly not fair by a long way. I accept that it is not a players fault if their opponent is staling, but it is their fault if they do not notify the admin about a staling opponent. Beating up a staling nation, and keeping silent about it, is just about the lowest possible form of Dominions gaming in my books (and I'm sure in the books of many other players as well).


C) NAP's, events from other games, and regular stales

The first two have absolutely no bearing at all on the current issue. I really don't see why they keep getting brought up. Problems should try to be sovled, but all I see being brought up is how similar problem have happened in other games, and inadequate solutions were found to them. So these same inadequate solutions should be used here as well. How is that even logical for one moment?

With the third, I certainly agree that stales happen, and that most of the time it is the player themselves who is at fault. But I don't see how that is the case here. Zeldor was away when all this happened, with no access to a computer (not that I'd personally want to fuss about with something like Dominion anyway if I was on vacation, regardless of computer access). And in that situation he correctly lined up a sub for himself for the duration of his absence, and had confirmation from the admin that notification about the sub had been received. So I don't see any reason why Zeldor should have to suffer in-game for the out-of-game issue that caused Ermor to stale three times. Or have any real blame laid upon him (apart from maybe being blamed for trusting an admin who was defeated, to actually do their admin job properly).

As far as it's possible to avoid, out-of-game issues should not have any dramatic effects on in-game events. Zeldor going away, and his sub not being correctly arranged by the admin, are both out-of-game issues. So I think any suggestion that this event should just be ignored, and the game continued as is with zero, or maybe just minimum compensation for Ermor, is extremely unfair. As it has basically had the effect of turning the entire game on it's head. And whether or not Ermor are still the most powerful nation is again irrelevant. They are not as powerful as they were before the stales, and the stales were entirely caused by an out-of-game issue.


If my understanding is correct from the thread messages, then the situation is that Kuritza and Ossa are the only two directly against the option of a full rollback. Kuritza, because he won a war that involved taking a lot of risks, and quite rightly, doesn't want to have to rely on the random number generator to repeat that victory. So I personally think Kuritza does have a valid claim as to why a full rollback would punish him considerably (more on this in a bit).

Ossa on the other hand seems to be against the rollback because then he wouldn't be able to cheaply kill off Ermor's main army(ies), and grab a load of forts and provinces in the process. This to me is exactly the reason why the game should be rolled back. As in the first place, I think it is a very bad show to not only beat-up a staler without mentioning that they were staling (and please don't claim you didn't know), but to then strongly object to the rollback is a serious abuse of a staling nation IMO. That is basically taking the stance of "I gained a huge unfair advantage when my opponent staled, and I have no intention of giving it back, so there". To me at least, any player taking that type of stance is immediately branding themselves as a player who has more interest in purely winning a game rather than in playing fair.


So maybe I can offer another possible solution....

"The game is rolled back the three turns to before Ermor started staling, and conditions imposed so that the war Kuritza won is winnable again, but without any of the risks that were attached to it first time around."

If that means the nation Kuritza defeated has to stale or submit suicidal orders, then so be it. That particular war has already been fought and an outcome achieved in Kuritza's favour, so it would be unfair and unreasonable to give the defeated nation another crack at surviving it. I am not sure if there are any other major wars/battles elsewhere that would need the same provisions made, but Kuritza's successful war victory seems to be the one most mentioned in the discussion, and unless I am mistaken, his main objection to the rollback (as it would be unfair on him to ask him to win a war a second time if he took risks to win it the first time).


These of course are just my observations, and the only vested interest I have in this game is that I have followed it from the start via the thread and llamascores, and would hate to see a good game get ruined by an administrative mistake. Since as a regular admin, that would also make me upset, as it would result in a game being decided purely due to a bad mistake by the admin. Maybe all this is mute now though if control of the password and with it the game has been lost (although I do hope someone has notified llamabeast about this so that he can get control back).


There are some competitive players here, but I hope also fair ones. I'd hope that it can be seen that the stales were of no fault of Zeldor's, as he arranged a sub which was confirmed by the admin. Yes the stales are most certainly Zeldor's problem, but they are certainly not his fault. So asking him to just "suck it up" and accept the stales is asking too much. Not without some form of compensation (and it's only really Zeldor who can judge how much compensation he would need to keep playing). Likewise, asking Kuritza to accept having to win his risky war again if the game is rolled-back is also asking too much IMO.

If any major nation is lost to the AI over this issue, then the game as a creditable contest more or less immediately comes to an end as I see it. So a compromise is the only solution, and one needs to be reached if the huge amount of time invested by everyone to date is to be salvaged. I don't see how the 'pain' of having to re-do turns is really an issue. Yes it is unwelcome to have the time the last three turns took wasted. But it pales into insignificance when compared to having the time the last 56 turns took wasted. Although if players are happy to play on in a game that has absolutely no credibility, then that's up to them really.


Some ideas have already been offered, and I have offered another one above. Maybe I can also offer another perspective as well from which to operate. Instead of looking ahead and trying to find a way to arrange it so that Ermor regains ground while other nations stale, why not look back and say go with the full rollback, and try to help ensure that all non-Ermor related events play out as closely as possible to how they did. (such as provisions being made so that Kuritza wins his war again).


I apologise if my comments as an outsider are unwanted. I maybe also offer some apologies to anyone I have offended with my criticisms. Although where criticism has been mentioned, I personally feel it is warranted. Problems happen in games, and usually the most effective method of solution is to work towards a compromise. There are mostly always parties to blame for causing these problems, although in this case those parties are not the ones being punished. I hope my comments have been of some help, or even if the comments haven't, then hopefully my idea and 'new perspective' have been.

I feel very sorry for SciencePro to have been handed this mess. Although I would ask him to stick with it, as there'll be no discredit to him if this games falls, but there is HoF admin status awaiting him if he does mange to somehow keep this game going :)


Edit:

@ Kuritza - Can I please kindly ask you one question. What would you need to see happen to accept the game being rolled back the three turns to before the Ermor stales?

Is a guarantee that you would win your war again enough? Maybe winning it cleaner, and with less casualties, could be your form of compensation? (achieved by suicidal orders from your opponent). Would you want something else as well? Or is there just no form of compensation or provision that would accept you allowing the game to be rolled back three turns?

[Kuritza]

I have won it as clean as possible. Seriously. Also, I managed to get some unique summons and forge an artifact.

So I just dont see why this game should be THAT unique to allow a 3-turns rollback. When Jomon had lots of stales, Ermor saw it as a good reason to attack Jomon - it wasnt a problem. When Ermor staled and somebody saw it as a good reason to attack Ermor, its a problem and we have to roll it back. Double standard?

Sorry, things like that happen. Zeldor should have asked Mikah to check game thread maybe. Heck, he shouldnt have *counted* on this game to end. Its called overconfidence.

Also, I was that annoyed by a 10-days stale because I dont have much time before my own vacation. But thanks to this childish outbreak, I will have to ask my sub to do the hardest part for me. If this game even contunues, of course.

[Anthropos]

while i really don't care that much
this following is a silly solution

=====
So maybe I can offer another possible solution....

"The game is rolled back the three turns to before Ermor started staling, and conditions imposed so that the war Kuritza won is winnable again, but without any of the risks that were attached to it first time around."

If that means the nation Kuritza defeated has to stale or submit suicidal orders, then so be it. That particular war has already been fought and an outcome achieved in Kuritza's favour, so it would be unfair and unreasonable to give the defeated nation another crack at surviving it. I am not sure if there are any other major wars/battles elsewhere that would need the same provisions made, but Kuritza's successful war victory seems to be the one most mentioned in the discussion, and unless I am mistaken, his main objection to the rollback (as it would be unfair on him to ask him to win a war a second time if he took risks to win it the first time).
====

the war was against me
it was the first few turns i ever faced a war against an experienced player in MP

one of the three turns I staled (can't rem why now)
the other i did sleep deprived on a train and forgot to load my casters up with gems
also, as most of the good advice on how to play came from zeldor
his absence as a person during this time was key feature in my downfall
he had huge numbers of troops adjacent to some of the battlegrounds

if we rollback, things will be different

a) i know a lot more
b) my main ally will be around
c) i saw how things might progress on that terrain
d) unlikley things happened, like my god dying with a single bad MR save
e) zeldor might take action

i expect to still die
but to cause more serious losses

bye for now
anthropos

[Anthropos]

ps: to whoever stole the admin slot
your poem is wonderful
i hope you are honorable enough to return control of the game to us

if you pm me the password so we can at least try and fix things
i swear on the blood of my first dead DnD character
never to reveal your identity

anthropos

[Kuritza]

Actually, I think you overestimate that first-hit soul slay. Of course, it was goddamn dramatic, but I dont take chances, usually anyway. Your goddess was more or less doomed.
I had two SCs there, one of them with artifact weapon, Lich with D5 (unscripted, but I still think he would cast drain life or two), some spectres with frost aura (your goddess had no cold immunity) and two astal mages, just in case.
But I bet you wouldnt send your goddess without giving her pearls and scripting returning, so my para-drop wouldnt work for the second time indeed.

[Micah]

Well said Calahan. Sadly, it seems to me at this point that Quitti and Zeldor (Edit: and SciencePro, didn't realize he had subbed in, he's not listed in the OP) are the only players here that are capable of acting in a fashion that supports fair play instead of their own base self-interest, so it's a waste of breath to continue.

I personally liked your suggestion, but Anthropos seems opposed to it, and Kuritza continues to spout meaningless noise to cover for the fact that he's not actually willing to give up his undeserved spot as game-leader by agreeing to a compromise. I see that he has time to post about how awesome his battle-group is, but not to address your question about providing an equitable rollback compromise. I find it deeply ironic that he uses the word "childish." Ossa's stated position is no better, though he's not as vocal.

The section under the C heading is especially spot on, and yet Kuritza continues to try to cling to other games ("this game be THAT unique") and other situations (Jomon's staling) as a smoke screen. For the record, I DON'T think this game should be "unique" in allowing rollbacks or some other solution given the situation, but I'd point out the exceptionally poor behavior by a majority of players in the game as to why it would be if it were to actually happen. Evidently compromising isn't in peoples' skill set around here.

And I agree with your fault-assessment, but I was trying to be diplomatic. In terms of resolving the situation it doesn't really matter whose fault it is as long as it's not Zeldor's, which it is not, so I was trying to avoid pointing fingers.

[lch]

I haven't read Calahan's post, it was too long. In fact I haven't read most posts here. Can somebody sum up Calahan's post to me? Was it a reformulation of Sheap's rules for Multiplayer etiquette or what people call the "metagame"?

[Calahan]

I have won it as clean as possible. Seriously.
Ok then, maybe it is possible to offer something extra besides the chance to win a clean war (as you have already done that). I do not know the game, so not sure if a few provinces or gems would be possible.

Also, I managed to get some unique summons and forge an artefact.

This is not an issue, as with the cooperation of all the players, you would again be able to get the same unique summon(s) and artefact(s) you have now.

Maybe some extra unique summon(s) or artefact(s) could form part of any compensation if you missed out on them (and hence wasted the resources on, so could therefore save/use those resources)


while i really don't care that much
this following is a silly solution

=====
So maybe I can offer another possible solution....

"The game is rolled back the three turns to before Ermor started staling, and conditions imposed so that the war Kuritza won is winnable again, but without any of the risks that were attached to it first time around."

If that means the nation Kuritza defeated has to stale or submit suicidal orders, then so be it. That particular war has already been fought and an outcome achieved in Kuritza's favour, so it would be unfair and unreasonable to give the defeated nation another crack at surviving it. I am not sure if there are any other major wars/battles elsewhere that would need the same provisions made, but Kuritza's successful war victory seems to be the one most mentioned in the discussion, and unless I am mistaken, his main objection to the rollback (as it would be unfair on him to ask him to win a war a second time if he took risks to win it the first time).
====

the war was against me
it was the first few turns i ever faced a war against an experienced player in MP

one of the three turns I staled (can't rem why now)
the other i did sleep deprived on a train and forgot to load my casters up with gems
also, as most of the good advice on how to play came from zeldor
his absence as a person during this time was key feature in my downfall
he had huge numbers of troops adjacent to some of the battlegrounds

if we rollback, things will be different

a) i know a lot more
b) my main ally will be around
c) i saw how things might progress on that terrain
d) unlikley things happened, like my god dying with a single bad MR save
e) zeldor might take action

i expect to still die
but to cause more serious losses

bye for now
anthropos
I am sorry, but you had your chance to defend against Kuritza, and you lost your war. There may be many reasons why you lost, which you have explained. But all of them have no bearing on the issue at hand. It is always tough as a new player to defend against an experienced player for the first time. I know, I have been there. But if you attempted to use any knowledge you gained to change the course of your war with Kuritza during the rollback, or gain assistance from another player (such as Zeldor) then you would directly benefit from the rollback, and Kuritza would directly suffer. That then actually goes against what my idea is trying to achieve.

The key to my solution is to try and make every non-Ermor related incident happen just as it did. So that way the game can return to this turn after a rollback, with Kuritza being in the same position as he is now (or better due to some form of compensation). You having a chance to defend yourself better is NOT part of the solution, and would only cause more problems if it happened.

So while you say "if we rollback, things will be different", the entire point is that things should not be any different at all in your war if the game is rolled back.

I haven't read Calahan's post, it was too long.
Yeah I don't blame you, I'm an awesome rambler when I get going :)

Can somebody sum up Calahan's post to me? Was it a reformulation of Sheap's rules for Multiplayer etiquette or what people call the "metagame"?
Something like that. Although I tried to keep the points relevant to this game only rather than games in general. Plus I tried to point out that those who are to blame for this mess are not the ones being punished. And that a single player shouldn't be asked/forced to take the entire hit of a big problem that was caused almost entirely by a huge administrative cock-up. This problem affects the very game itself, and therefore every player. So logically, everybody should have to make some sort of compromise in order to correct it. It is the shape and form of that compromise that the current crop of messages are trying to work out.


And of course Sheap explained all the MP etiquette rules far better than I ever could.

Here's the link to Sheap's fantastic "Multi-player 101 Guide" on how to play and act during MP games for those who have not read it (you should!). Think I must have read this at least a dozen times before playing my first MP game.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com//showthread.php?t=32050

[Kuritza]

Micah, YOU had to sub Zeldor, and YOU failed to check if the game has ended or not.

I was the one who actually asked to pause this game when I noticed that Ermor stales.

And thank you for referring to personal insults, yes.
Underserved spot? As a game leader? Say again, I cheated somehow or what? I didnt work to get what I have in this game?
Or maybe I didnt suggest that Marignon and Utgard must give Zeldor some land back, and I refused to give Zeldor a NAP?
And, while we are at it, ROLLBACK IS NOT A COMPROMISE!!! Its Zeldors demand. Or does 'compromise' mean 'shutting the hell up and agreeing to Zeldors demands' now?
But yeah, I'm the one who spouts meaningless nonsense.

Hell yeah, I HAD! to agree to a rollback, nullifying my progress. Or I had to stale, killing my fetish-holders. Right, 'compromise' is making a player who just played his own part suffer for another players fault!
And what I offered was a 'nonsense' because it didnt provide a 100% compensation! GREAT!

You 'dont think this game should be unique' by providing 3-turns rollbacks etc, yet you keep coming here and blaming me for not agreeing to this nonsense.
Poor behaviour, my ***. I asked to stop this game to stop Zeldor's slaughter, I supported a diplomatic solution, and its NOT my fault that according to Zeldor, diplomatic solution means 'not attacking him until Marignon is dead' and anything less is 'nonsense'. All I wanted is to continue this goddamn game, because I had a good position which I deserved.

To hell with you both. Close this farce of a game, losers cant be winners.

[Kuritza]

Oh, and Calahan.

Thanks for coming. You were the only one who made sense here, I appreciate it. I dont agree to rollbacks, because I just dont want to do the same tedious routine again where I managed everything so perfectly once, but at least you tried to make it sound appealing and count my interests in too.

I just dont want to continue this game anymore. I dont play with these who cant take it like a man after a mistake. I dont play with these who openly say they wont let others to finish this game if they arent allowed to have it their way. And I wont play here after I was told that I 'spout meaningless noise to cover for the fact that he's not actually willing to give up his undeserved spot as game-leader by agreeing to a compromise'.

And these guys dare to say something against WL?

[Juffos]

Wow. Dominions is serious business. I lost the game due to five stales in the earlymid game and an opportunistic Ermor in the close neighbourhood. Had fun defending against the impossible odds :)


Oh wow look, suddenly, two rollbacks, how is this possible? I guess some divine fate wants the drama to end and the game to continue. The Emperor's hand guide us all.

[Kuritza]

Close This Goddamn Game!

[Squirrelloid]

Kuritza, from the sounds of things, the war you won was against Zeldor's *ally*. Claiming you didn't benefit from Zeldor's staling in such a situation is beyond the point of credibility. In fact, from Anthropos description, there were Ermorian armies *right there* on the border who could have intervened if Ermor had not been staling.

Surely, you knew Anthropos was Zeldor's ally. Misrepresenting the extent Ermor was effected or could have effected your war is as good as lying to try to retain an unfair advantage. So I agree with Calahan's long post with the following exception: you should have to refight the war because Ermor may well defend its ally.

[Juffos]

Keep on arguing and I will declare AI Jomon the winner.

>:|


if the capital still holds, of course.

You both are quite stubborn and I like bananas.

[Zeldor]

As we are here, I could clarify some things:

- I would have probably attacked Man by now, if not the stales, as his conquer of Caelum was a direct threat to me
- before stales I had another border with Man, through Marignon lands I conquered
- there were many offers I sent to Kuritza, he just chose to keep on mentioning one of them, the one he found unacceptable
- his offers were way more profitable for him than for me, 3-5 turns of peace gives him only time to prepare, while denying my chance to strike at him like I planned
- I don't expect 100% compensation as it's simply impossible, but I still think that doing 3 rollbacks would be more fair than force stales [with focus on 'more']
- I agree that it should be more a talk between Ossa and me, but he is not very vocal and his answer was really straight, without room for negotiations
- yes, there were stalers in that game [a bit too many] and all was reported to Juffos - and he switched that players to AI, trying to get some subs earlier; those were not leading nations though and everyone had a same chance to eat a peace of them [every neighbour that is]
- bananas are good

[Kuritza]

1) I didnt know Anthropos was an ally of Ermor. Otherwise, I'd have attacked him much, much earlier. I just thought he is too inexperienced to understand that not working together to stop Ermor is suicidal.
2) Pray tell me just how could Ermor help Caelum? By attacking him from the opposite side?
3) Pray tell me, what 'reasonable' offers did I neglect? I quote you:

So how about changing that a bit? My offer is to sign long-term peace deal [for example "As long as Marignon lives +3", I could also consider fixed time NAP or just solid NAPX]. You'd grow stronger and face the winner and fight for victory in that game, something you'd surely like And I'd have some chances to try and fight Marignon + Utgard, having some challenge after losing so much.

I offered you NAP 5 (just what you asked for), which was called 'Man spouts nonsense' later, without even bothering to make a counter offer, like 'nap 10 would be more like it', so stop lying. Thank you.
4)BY ALL MEANS, please do declare AI Jomon a winner. That would be an ideal solution. Or Arco, I dont care. Just declare somebody who is not Zeldor, Kuritza or Ossa a winner and close the game.

[Zeldor]

So 5 turns of peace is that solid fixed time NAP you are referring to. As something I should take after 3 stales and 10 turns lost preparations against Marignon?

[SciencePro]

When playing any game, from dominions to DND to monopoly to pickup basketball it is unenviable that disagreements will arise. If you are in such a disagreement you have some options:

A) Come up with a compromise or win-win solution
B) Capitulate because you realize that it is more important that the game go on without bad feelings than ruining everybody’s fun over whatever silly thing you are arguing about
C) Flip a coin
D) take a vote

OR

E) Demand that you get your way or else you will take your ball and go home

I am not going to name any names here, (I could think of at least two) but if you responded to such a situation by threatening to quit before making a serious effort at a compromise then I think you acted with poor judgment and poor sportsmanship. If the game is ruined (as it seems like it might be) then that poor decision-making is the reason why.

[Anthropos]

someone has made our decision for us

while i would LOVE to get a second chance to defend against Kuritza (without staling this time)
the amount of heat i received for suggesting that just i submit suicidal orders for three turns was a dumb idea has made me reconsider the sanity of the other players

unfortunately
after all that we did and however many hours we spent here
the game is now ruined

i'm sad for that

my initial proposal was to get kuritza and zeldor to work it out
and that i support any agrement the tow of them coudl make
funny if that has put me in the 'insanely selfish' category to some
(lol)

i fear the only reasonable thing to do is go AI and stop reading this thread
as fighting kuritza now, even if i did do better
would be a very very hollow prize

bye for now
anthropos

[Ossa]

Lets just get on playing and forget this whole discussion, it's not getting us anywhere anyway now that fact were made by our anonymous admin.

Concerning my "childish" position: I'm just still angry with Zeldor that he talked Ryleth into attacking me, effectivly ending all my hopes to gain ground against Ermor. Thats all ;)


Anyone interested in a crusade now? Though Zeldor asked me repeteadly for NAP I'm not going to talk to undead people.

[Micah]

Apologies Anthropos, I didn't fully read your post regarding Ermor's stales having a direct effect on your conflict with Man. That changes the situation and does in fact justify some level of compensation to you, although it gets tricky since you now know what Kuritza brings to bear. Though it does beg the question why you didn't speak up about your ally's woes.

I was under the impression from Kuritza that the events were discrete entities, and if that were so it would have been unfair for you to get a re-do with your extra knowledge and experience. Hopefully the single stale that Ermor suffered will serve to alleviate that disadvantage for Kuritza and restore a more-or-less level playing field if the game continues.

[Kuritza]

>> So 5 turns of peace is that solid fixed time NAP you are referring to. As something I should take after 3 stales and 10 turns lost preparations against Marignon?

Yes, and what else does it look like? You asked for a fixed time NAP, I offered you a fixed time NAP. But then you didnt even bother saying 'No, I want 10 turns of peace', or something like that, you just stopped negotiating and told everyone that I'm not trying to reach a compromise.

Now who was ACTUALLY not trying to reach a compromise here?!!

Zeldor, you just told us 'my way or high way'. Either rollback, lots of immediate stales, or letting you kill us one by one, or you wont let us finish this game.
(Btw it was funny to read how Marignon is so much scarier than you. Were I a new player, I may have even bought that)

Anhtropos, I'd love to play with or against you again, but in another game. If I ever decide to play Dominions again.

Close this game. I refuse to go on, too much unpleasant feelings here.

[Quitti]

I proclaim Utgård the winner!

Seriously, this has gone far enough. It doesn't seem we can find a reasonable solution to this, so the best option would be to
a) close the game
b) close the game,
c) proclaim Utgård the winner and close the game.

[Ossa]

I'd propose Jomon for his attitude of not giving up alone.

Serious, he didnt quit while he was besieged in his only castle for dozends of turns!

[Kuritza]

I vote for Jomon.

P.S.
I could continue playing if Zeldor & Micah apologize for some things I had to read here, like 'spouting meaningless noise', 'refusing to compromise', 'unfair position' etc. Which will be called another 'Man nonsense', I'm sure.
But I'd really prefer to end this game. First, because I'm seriously offended. Second, because of two rollbacks I didnt agree to. Third, because Zeldor managed to stale this game for too long. Next hosting is 15th October, in November I wont be able to play for two weeks.
BG, Game over. Jomon for the winner!