Sentient Machines - [Game on]

[Burnsaber]

Age: Single
Players: 10
Map: Random Map: Corruption
Map Download link: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=616337&postcount=1
Mods: Custom CBM 1.5, Single-age-mod. See the attachment in this post to download.
Settings: Renaming on, otherwise normal for MA.
Victory: Surrender of other players.
Other Rules: Diplomacy is normal - breaking NAPs is frowned upon but not banned; trades are to be honoured. All pretender designs are done by an impossible AI.
Hosting:

Turns -- Hosting Scheducle
0-10 -- 24h quickhost
11-20 -- 30h quickhost
20-30 -- 36h quickhost
30-50 -- 48h quickhost
50+ -- 60h quickhost

Players:

EA Niefelheim - Falkor
EA Hinnom - Burnsaber
EA Sauromatia - Baalz
EA Fomoria - Fakeymcfake
EA Vanheim - Zlefin
EA Arco - Ferrosol
MA Ulm - Unoptimized
MA Jotunheim - Alpine Joe
LA T'ien C'hi - Atul
LA Utgard - Dragar

[Illuminated One]

This sounds cool.
Reserve me a spot. I don't know if I can play though, if I can't I'd volunteer to make the pretenders.

[Alpine Joe]

I will join as jotunheim. How exactly are we going to handle the process of pretender submission?

[Burnsaber]

This sounds cool.
Reserve me a spot. I don't know if I can play though, if I can't I'd volunteer to make the pretenders.

Nation?

I will join as jotunheim. How exactly are we going to handle the process of pretender submission?

Well, I present you two choices. Then I will make a mod that actually allows everyone you to buy that "AI made beast" within normal point limits and everyone will then send their desings as normal.

[Fakeymcfake]

EA Agartha, interested to see what will come of this one.

[Baalz]

Sounds fun, I'll play Sauromatia.

[Burnsaber]

I pondered on the details a bit.

Settings will be default for MA. CBM will be included, as will Streamers & standards to avoid flag confusion.

Due to intrest in the game, I've decided to cap the number of players at 12. Generating pretenders for any larger amount will be a quite pain in the ***.

Since the game will be most likely accompanied by a custom mod, which gives new magic to pretenders (to make it possible to actually build the AI design with humnn points). I'll release the changes at the start of the game, since some them might become potential wish targets. This might give some hints about what kind of monsters are out there, but not reveal too much.

[Calahan]

Sounds like a crazy game, but sadly my plate is too full to jump onboard right now :(

But I will offer to be the non-playing admin/pretender dishing out guy, so that Burnsaber and Illuminated One can both play in this game if they wish :)

[Burnsaber]

But I will offer to be the non-playing admin/pretender dishing out guy, so that Burnsaber and Illuminated One can both play in this game if they wish :)

Thanks, you are awesome. I singed up as Shinyama

I'll be making a mod to make the viewing the AI designs easy. I'll send it to you once it complete.

The mod will appoint one super nation with uber-modded units and national eyes of god with 0 gem cost, to be played by you. The AI nations will have empty recruitment rosters and with indy str 9, will be stuck at their capital. Once all pretenders have broken free, you just teleport against them to see their desings (the amount of candels at the cap will also tell how much dom strenght they took). This will allow you to easily see the AI designs to be played by us.

After that, you just whip up a quick mod which gives some more magic to pretenders where necessary, so that we can actually manually make the designs then.

[Calahan]

Thanks, you are awesome. I singed up as Shinyama

I'll be making a mod to make the viewing the AI designs easy. I'll send it to you once it complete.


Will PM you my email to send your mod to, since I don't think you can send attachments using the forum PM's (well at least I couldn't see how)


After that, you just whip up a quick mod which gives some more magic to pretenders where necessary, so that we can actually manually make the designs then.

Have never tried modding Dominions, or even looked to do so, so may need a few pointers. Have modded a few games in the past that use XML (Civ IV mainly). So if it's anything like that I think I should be able to manage it.

[Unoptimized]

This sounds amazing. I'll take a stab at MA Ulm :)

[Fakeymcfake]

Actually, can I change my nation to EA Formoria?

[Burnsaber]

I'll probably let recruitment be open until I make the AI design viewing mod this weekend. Sunday is a good deadline.

So join up people while you still can. Here are some ideas for nations.

MA Pythium -> Good troops & amazing mages & not too dependent on a bless. This nation will be powerful, even with a not-too-great pretender build.

EA Niefelheim -> Even if your bless sucks, you can still utilize your giant Skinshifters, which are a great unit. And Jarls are always good.

EA C'its -> Solid military and mages. It's pretty hard to go woring with this.

Any underwater nation -> Just think about it.


This sounds amazing. I'll take a stab at MA Ulm :)

Oooh. Risky. I like it. You're in.


Actually, can I change my nation to EA Formoria?

I see no reason why you couldn't. I also took the opportunity to change my choice. Shinyama will just get rushed unless I luck out to a awake pretender. Hinnom is much more stable and has great magic diversity.


Have never tried modding Dominions, or even looked to do so, so may need a few pointers. Have modded a few games in the past that use XML (Civ IV mainly). So if it's anything like that I think I should be able to manage it.

Don't worry, the mod won't be too complicated. I'll make you a template mod where you just add values to make it even easier.

[Dragar]

Utgard please

[Burnsaber]

Considering about changing your nation choice. I think I should limit it somehow so that there won't too much stragedizing with nation choices. After this post, all players are allowed exactly one change in nation selection.

I took a look at more nations, and here are some more ideas.

MA Ermor - who cares about your pretender? You can reanimate anyway.

LA Pythium - With that path diversity, your pretender really won't matter. Great military will also help.

LA Jomon - You have absolutely fantastic magic diversity and your non-shield troops will be much better against MA independents, since crossbows will be more rare. If you luck out to a obscene bless, you have solid & cheap sacred troops to utilize it.

[Calahan]

Have never tried modding Dominions, or even looked to do so, so may need a few pointers. Have modded a few games in the past that use XML (Civ IV mainly). So if it's anything like that I think I should be able to manage it.

Don't worry, the mod won't be too complicated. I'll make you a template mod where you just add values to make it even easier.
That would be great Burnsaber. Was going to ask you to do this for me, as I knew in theory it should be possible, but didn't know if theory and reality ageed on this issue or not :)

[Strabo]

Sounds interesting, i'll join as EA Ermor

[Burnsaber]

Okay I did bit of testing with my AI Viewing mod. Here are results from the first test game. Remember that you will get two choices, thought.

There also seem to be some builds with dom str below 4. I suggest that in those cases the dominion is just raised to 4, because it would just plain out unplayable.

It also might be possible to make a unit which would completely prevent bad event in the first year, since it's quite possible that someone is going to end up with high turmoil & high misfortune rating. Getting eliminated before turn 5 isn't fun and fun is the point of this game. It would die at late winter, due to having 1 hp and old age over by 10000 years.

LA Utgård
Awake Master Druid F5A4E6S6D2N4
Dom7, Order3, Sloth2, Cold3, Death3, Misfortune3, Magic3

EA Sauromatia
Dormant Great Sage F9A6W3S6D4N5 (nice bless!)
Dom2?, Turmoil2, Sloth1, Cold1, Growth2, Luck1, Drain3

EA Hinnom
Dormant Great Sage F9A6E6B4 (nice bless!)
Dom 7, Sloth2, Heat3, Growth2, Misfortune2, Drain2

MA Jotunheim
Dormant Son of Niefel A4W6D5B5
Dom 7, Turmoil 1, Productivity3, Cold2, Growth3, Luck1, Magic3

MA Ulm
Awake Great Sage F5A5W3S5D2
Dom7, Turmoil3, Sloth2, Heat2, Growth3, Luck1, Drain2

EA Ermor
Awake Manticore E1D9N9
Dom5, Order1, Sloth3, Heat2, Death1, Drain3

.....

I know.

May god help us all.

[Baalz]

Heh, does the AI take into account preferred temp scales? I notice it gave Hinnom heat and Jotunheim cold.

[Burnsaber]

Heh, does the AI take into account preferred temp scales? I notice it gave Hinnom heat and Jotunheim cold.

I think it does. Hinnom prefers Heat2 and Jotunheim cold2.

[Baalz]

Hmmmm, MA Ulm at sloth 2 with a human pretender is pretty close to unplayable. If the second choice is also slothful I vote poor Unoptimized gets a re-roll.

[Burnsaber]

Hmmmm, MA Ulm at sloth 2 with a human pretender is pretty close to unplayable. If the second choice is also slothful I vote poor Unoptimized gets a re-roll.

Ugh. I just noticed that my wording is pretty cryptic.

Those testing pretenders I made aren't part of the actual choices that will be presented. I was just testing my mod and tought that it would be nice to show what kind of beasts one should expect. I think that the actual choice should be presented by PM so that the pretenders would be secret. They could be made public if the players wish that. Opinions?

One should consider them as a mental exercise. The build for Sauromatia is.. intresting at least. The E1D9N9 awake Manticore is also pretty insane. Stone Skin + Personal Regeneration = SC?

I'll probably give Calahan instructions to generate a third option if the first two are completely unplayable.

A general question. I was considering about replacing all starting scouts with a special weak unit with preventbadevents 100 with mapmove 6. On turn 6, all players will send this units to die at the closest independent province. This should prevent any insta-kills by unfortunate events in the first turns. Would this be considered okay?

[Baalz]

Sounds good to me.

[Unoptimized]

Aw, thanks guys. The scout thing is actually a pretty good idea, as I don't think any of us players are as insanely suicidal as the AI. I for one would happily kill that poor scout.

Oh man though, awake sages. One of my more favorite pretenders these days to be honest.

[Illuminated One]

MA Tien Chi

[Dragar]

presumably we won't be publicising the pretenders? If both choices are really unplayable we should leave it to calahan as admin to offer a 3rd if he judges that as reasonable

[Strabo]

Oh, sorry, I forgot to say that i am a newbie, and if this game is not newb-friendly, then you can exclude me

[atul]

LA TC, if I may.

[Burnsaber]

Oh, sorry, I forgot to say that i am a newbie, and if this game is not newb-friendly, then you can exclude me

Well, I'll leave the decision to you. This is not a regular game by any means and there are numereous skilled players in the game. Do you feel like you're out of your league? If you don't want to play, just say so.

This game will mostly be about dealing with your scales and taking out the maximum performance out from your monstereous pretender. I really don't think that we will be seeing any optimal expansion rates in this game. If you're worried about getting eliminated early, you could take an underwater nation.

presumably we won't be publicising the pretenders? If both choices are really unplayable we should leave it to calahan as admin to offer a 3rd if he judges that as reasonable

To make it official, here are statements:

1) Pretender choices will secret. Calahan will PM them to you once he has rolled them up. However, we will be using a custom mod (changing pretender choices, so that we can buy that E1N9D9 awake manticore). The changes that custom mod makes will be public. Everyone will know that now manticore has E1N3D3 as base, so there are hints about what kind of monsters are out there.

2) Calahan is free to use his common sense. If both choices are completely unplayable, he can use his jurisdiction to roll up a third one.

3) All players will start with a 1hp weak unit with 100% prevent bad events with flying and ridicilious mapmove. On turn 8, all players must send this unit to die at the nearest hostile province (I'll send an in-game message to remind everyone at turn 7). This will prevent any early drop-outs due to serious misfortune events from hideous scales.

4) Recruitment will be open until sunday to 14:00 llamaserver time. This will also be a deadline to any nation changes, since I need to know what nations are playing for the AI Design viewing mod. Which I'll then send to Calahan.

[Falkor]

I'd like to give Nifelheim a try. Sign me in, please.

[Strabo]

Well, I think i'm not so experienced. Sign me out, please

[zlefin]

i do like wacky games.
I'm in.
For nation: uh, random. yes, random nation will do fine.
Zlefin :)

[Ferrosol]

what the hell, In as EA arcosphale

[Burnsaber]

i do like wacky games.
I'm in.
For nation: uh, random. yes, random nation will do fine.
Zlefin :)

Since I need to know the nation beforehand for the mod, I randomized it using dom3 (with single-era mod active).

You are EA Vanheim

[zlefin]

only as long as a 12th doesn't come in wanting van :)

[Burnsaber]

Ok, I have sent Calahan his instructions on how to generate the AI pretenders. He will contact each player with the pretender options when he has the time for the generation. It's not as easy as it sounds, so let's give him time to work his magic, okay folks?

To pass the time, we can hit the issue of the map.

I have 3 options ready, each one has its pros and cons. Let the bickering begin! You can see details of the map in the llamaserver map browser
http://www.llamaserver.net/mapModBrowser.cgi

1) Shahrivar. About 15,27 land provinces per player and 12 water. Absolutely beautiful map, but it has some pre-placed magic sites. Most of them are okay, but there are some school bonus sites and one site with strong indy mages. I could replace these sites with something more reasonable. It's not wraparound, thought.

2) Wraith Bunny. About 14,95 land provinces per player. Simple map with quite balanced outlay, but it's not wraparound and lacks "oomph"

3) Random Wraparound: Small_001. - Only wraparound on our size. Seems balanced enough, but is ugly as hell.

[Alpine Joe]

Vote for Wraithbunny

[Ferrosol]

I vote wraith bunny

[atul]

I don't like wraithbunny's clumped terrains, so I guess my vote goes to Shahrivar.

Though just looked at the images, so if there's some hidden imbalance I'm easily convinced to change the vote.

[Dragar]

I am in general indifferent, but if using shavrivar I vote to randomise the pre-placed sites

[Falkor]

I like that Small_001, but will be happy with Shahrivar too. With or without preplaced sites.

[Fakeymcfake]

I'm going with Shah, sorry but I like pretty maps even if they're unbalanced.

[Burnsaber]

I'm going with Shah, sorry but I like pretty maps even if they're unbalanced.

Well, like I said, I'd remove the powerful sites. Most of them would then just give 1-2gems, useful for diversification, since they're prediscovered.

But anyways, here is the current vote total

Wraith Bunny: 2 (Ferrosol, Alpine Joe)
Shahrivar: 3 (Burnsaber, atul?, Fakeymcfake)
Small_001: 1 (Falkor)

[Calahan]

Hey folks, Burnsaber has sent me the mod and my instructions (thanks for the walkthrough Burnsaber :)), been too busy today though to even take a glance at it all unfortunately, but hope to have some time within the next 48hrs to get everything sorted.

Be in touch with you all soon with your Pretender choices, and I'll have a think about how mean I feel like being with regards a re-roll for any particularly nasty pairs that crop up :D

[Illuminated One]

Sorry, I have to drop out.

[Burnsaber]

Sorry, I have to drop out.

Don't sweat over it. 10 players is still more than enough. And hey, who knows, this AI pretender thing might catch on.

[Burnsaber]

But now that we have 10 players the map thing just became a lot more complicated. Wasn't Fomoria a coast nation?

As much as I love Shahrivar, 16,8 land provinces per player is too much, considering that no-one will likely have exceptional expansion rates. My main idea is to allow dormant pretenders to break free before there are enemies at the gate. We could take smaller map (12-13 provs per player) and ramp up the independent strenght to 6 or 7.

But now, I'm quite intriqued by the Random map: Corruption.

14,8 land provinces per player and the lakes are kinda all over the place, creating chokepoints. It also somewhat diminishes Fomoria's "only amphibian narion"-vantage.

Or should we go with shahrivar anyway? Perhaps with lowered indy str?

Let's try to decide on a map before the pretender selection comes, since that can understandably affect our voting. I'm hearing you players out because I want to be fair. If there isn't a conculsion by wednesday, I'll probably move from democracy to dictatorship and decide on something.

[atul]

And lakes all over the place give a nice boost to two sailing nations. You'll never get it "just right"... ;p

Nothing bad in Corruption either, though if it's done with random map generator I'd assume there are only those Border Mountains around. Well, everything looks good as long as it isn't Eyesore and I'm not weeping for one terrain. I'd rather switch maps than play around with indy strength.

Just remember democracy, while it has its advantages, is by no means efficient way to decide things. ;)

[Dragar]

I played an MP game with Corruption a while back, was ok. And agreed, thread starter can just decide if we all have different viewpoints

[Falkor]

Corruption map looks very nice. I like it.

[Burnsaber]

All right, I went in ahead and declared the Random Map: Corruption as the map for this game.

I added a downalod link for it in the first post.

What is this border mountain thing anyway? Haven't really played too many games on random maps.

[atul]

Basically there are terrains for "Border Mountain" and "Mountain" with their own effects and castle types. IIRC dom3 random map generator generates only border mountains and not real mountains. But might've mistaken, this is mostly hearsay.

[Burnsaber]

Yeah, I just took a look. All mountain provinces one the map are actually border mountains. If people perceive this as a problem, I could just edit the .map file to make them real mountains and upload that version to llamaserver.

[Calahan]

Hello Everyone

I have started going through the process of getting you all those AI created monster Pretenders, but I might have hit a problem, which I've PM-ed Burnsaber about.

Basically, the problem seems to be that the AI doesn't always use up all the extra design points it gets at impossible level. Sometimes it uses them all, sometimes just a few, and sometimes none at all. And I feel this is leading to some real imbalance in the designs I am getting. I don't mind the weird and wonderful Gods it is creating, but I do mind if one awake Pretender has had 300 more design points pumped into it than another awake Pretender. I've double checked all the settings, and everything is as it should be.

So while I wait for Burnsaber to get back to me, does anyone have any insight into how the AI designs it's Pretenders, and in particular, does it always use up all the design points? It's not hard to see that AI Pretender designs are pretty random, but knowing that they would never NOT use all the design points would be helpful right now :)

As soon as this is sorted, I can get your choices out to you. Current timeframe is sometime tomorrow with any luck :)

[Dragar]

Is it obvious how many points have been spent, or do you have to work it out each time?

If the former, presumably you could make it spit out gods until you had 2 with full points spent? If not have to find another way, would take ages to calculate for each one

[Calahan]

Is it obvious how many points have been spent, or do you have to work it out each time?

If the former, presumably you could make it spit out gods until you had 2 with full points spent? If not have to find another way, would take ages to calculate for each one

Sometimes it is very obvious that hardly any point have been spent. One classic one I had was for MA Jotun, where the AI came up with...

Dorment Skratti
Dominion 4
Turmoil 2
Sloth 2
Cold 2
Death 1
Luck 2
Drain 1
and wait for it, the awesome magic paths of
Fire 4 Nature 2 Blood 4
Using just normal design options that leaves 492 unused points!!! Nice one Mr.Computer :) Any brave takers for this one?

If the Pretenders are awake, it is easy to check the points spent by re-creating that Pretender in it's Imprisoned form (which acts as the Impossible design point bonus). Here they have varied from a good 2 design points remaining, to the not so good 100+ points remaining.

As I said, I have no idea if this is just how the AI works, or if the problem is something else. One of the solutions I have suggested to Burnsaber is that I just keep creating Pretenders until every nation has at least 2 that have used up all the design points (or at least within 40 ie. A free scale). I have been doing the latter while waiting to hear from Burnsaber, think I'm over 50% of the required number of Pretenders at the moment.

One final thing, it is 250 extra design points the AI gets on impossible level isn't it?

[Burnsaber]

Actually, it did that "weak pretender" thing to me too, but only in once in a single test (out 3 or 4).

I guess it's just some weird AI behaviour.

If you have the time, it would be super if you could generate pretenders until you get two "uber" ones for each.

With uber, I don't specifically mean that there is a lot of points spent in to it. If it has strange paths & lots of power in them, it's probably somewhat fine. As long as all pretender are with 100 point range in cost, it's fine.

This game is kinda skewed on balance form the start. If someone gets seriously lucky with their pretender, we'll handle it the dom3 way. Gangbanging the lucky bastard, I mean

[Calahan]

Good to know it's just the AI doing stupid stuff as normal.

I will get onto generating the rest of the Pretenders first chance I get, which might be tonight, or failing that tomorrow afternoon.

[Alpine Joe]

I will get onto generating the rest of the Pretenders first chance I get
I hope this doesn't mean you are keeping that crappy Jotunheim pretender as one of my choices :(

[Calahan]

I will get onto generating the rest of the Pretenders first chance I get
I hope this doesn't mean you are keeping that crappy Jotunheim pretender as one of my choices :(

Don't worry that one, and any other obvious candidates, will be firmly discarded to the scrap heap.

Oddly, some nations were proving harder to get good designs for than others, as some nations were coming up with good design (comparatively) after good design. Maybe there's a connection here to how they perform in SP games?

[Dragar]

I'm keenly anticipating my pretender, it's quite exciting not knowing what you are going to get. Hopefully this leads to some strategies not normally employed

Any chance we can keep pretenders altogether secret from other players? It would keep a nice edge to the game, not having any idea what you're going to run into

[Fakeymcfake]

Actually yeah, now that you mention it knowing what the other guy has would potentially give people a bit of an edge, unfairly in my opinion. Plus surprises are fun.

[Burnsaber]

Any chance we can keep pretenders altogether secret from other players? It would keep a nice edge to the game, not having any idea what you're going to run into


Actually yeah, now that you mention it knowing what the other guy has would potentially give people a bit of an edge, unfairly in my opinion. Plus surprises are fun.

Well, the pretenders will be mostly secret. Because there is no way to make the mod .dm file secret (anyone can just open it and take a look easily), the base modded chassises will be available for all to view. However,

1) You do not know which chassis is for which nation, and

2) You do not know exactly what magic does the chassis possess and with what scales and level on dormancy.

For example, Calahan PM's everyone their choices, waits until he hears back from all of us and presents a mod with 10 modded pretenders are like this:

1. Red Dragon with F2W2D1

2. Great Sage with F3S3A1

3. Manticore with B2W3

4. Cyclops with E3F3

5. Skratti with B2E2N2W2D2

6. Cyclops with E3D3W1

7. Master Druid with B1N1D1W2F3 and domstr 5

8. Blue Dragon with W2, with path cost for additional magic 0

9. Monolith with E1D1N3S3

10. Titan with E3A3 and domstr 5 to begin with

Okay, now tell me which nation has what chassis to begin with? Can you tell if they're going to be awake with horrible scales or dormant? exact domstr?

This might fail a bit if someone uses a clearly nation restricted pretender (like the Son of the Fallen for Hinnom), but still you won't know the level of dormancy, nor any other details about it. Besides, because you are presented with 2 options, you can always opt to choose a "vanilla" pretender for that extra mystique.

What I meant with the gang-bang analogy was the true dom3-way. If some bless-giant nation hits on a imprisoned blesspretender and start taking up territory like madman, the other nations will probably react to the threat.

I'm keenly anticipating my pretender, it's quite exciting not knowing what you are going to get. Hopefully this leads to some strategies not normally employed.


Yeah, this is what I'm hoping too. With a less than optimal pretender, you might need to look beyond the regular choices and try to devise another way to play the nation.

Perhaps I (EA Hinnom) will end up with 3-sloth in both of my builds and are unable to leverage the chariots/my sacreds for expansion. I'll probably then have to rely on the caveman guys at the beginning of my roster for expansion.

I'd also like to bring up the awake E1D9N9 manticore with somewhat bad scales from the example builds on page 2. It's not SC right from the start, althought it has pretty high fear due to death magic (+14 b*tches!) bonus. You need to leverage options and tinker with early game expansion strats to get the most out of him. It'snot obvious, but that pretender is really versatile and packs a bunch even with low-research. Consider this: Sleep cloud with +4 penetration and AoE 11! Heck, even sleep with +4 penetration right from the start could suprise someone trying to leverage sacred giant rush against you. Or just hit Summon Earthpower + Ironskin + Personal Regeneration + hold +hold + attack rear.

[Calahan]

Hope to have contacted everyone with their Pretender design options before the end of today. Stay tuned :)

[Calahan]

Ok, I think I just about have 2 viable designs for each nation. I will type it all up neatly (rather than my scribbled short-hand versions) and PM you all seperately very soon.

But, @ Burnsaber - With regards the mod I have to make, what happens if two nations have the same Pretender chassis for their build? For example, one nation chooses a Cyclops with Water8, another a Cyclops with Fire8. I can't put F+W on the Cyclops because then both parties benefit from having base paths they shouldn't have. And at 80 points per new path, I doubt I could leave the Cyclops without a base magic path and still have it as a valid design for both players. And obviously this only gets worse if in the above example the two Cyclop's have non Earth paths like W8D8 F8N8.

Is this a problem, or am I missing something?

[atul]

Thanks for your work!

As to cyclops problem, isn't it possible to duplicate pretenders via mod?

[Burnsaber]

Ok, I think I just about have 2 viable designs for each nation. I will type it all up neatly (rather than my scribbled short-hand versions) and PM you all seperately very soon.

But, @ Burnsaber - With regards the mod I have to make, what happens if two nations have the same Pretender chassis for their build? For example, one nation chooses a Cyclops with Water8, another a Cyclops with Fire8. I can't put F+W on the Cyclops because then both parties benefit from having base paths they shouldn't have. And at 80 points per new path, I doubt I could leave the Cyclops without a base magic path and still have it as a valid design for both players. And obviously this only gets worse if in the above example the two Cyclop's have non Earth paths like W8D8 F8N8.

Is this a problem, or am I missing something?

In my code I supplied, all monster you make are new, they don't overwrite excisting ones.

So you just create two different new cyclopes. One with F and the other with W.

EDIT: Must.. Resist the urge.. to refresh PM page every 3 seconds..

[Calahan]

Thanks for the answer Burnsaber. Only two more nations to type up. And because I like you so much Burnsaber, I'll PM your choice to you last :D

[Calahan]

Hurray, it's done! :)

You should now hopefully all have received a PM from me with the two Pretender choices you have for this game (please PM me or post asap if you have not). I don't think I've made any mistakes in either typing, or in sending the correct choices to the correct players. But please accept my apologies in advance if I have made any errors, since a lot of cutting&pasting, PM-ing, typing lots of important numbers etc went on in the past 2 hours, so a little mistake here and there way well have crept in, and like I said, apologies if it has.

Once you have decided on your Pretender, please PM it to me. Also use my text in your reply if you can, as that way if you choose option 1 for example, I can easily see that we are talking about the same option. I have my own set of notes for this game, but doing it this way helps limit the chances of a mistake occuring from option 1 in my notes being different to the option 1 I sent you (while I'm pretty certain this hasn't happened, mistakes can creep in like I said).

I have tried to come up with two viable builds for each nation, and I have included a comment in your PM if there was any area of concern I had over your choices. Of course as Burnsaber has already stated, balance in this sort of game goes out the window, so some Pretenders will be a lot stronger than others.

I think I have a fairly good knowledge of the game, so I hope none of the Pretenders are completely crippling to their nation. But of course at the same time I haven't sat down and worked out a game winning strategy for each build I have offered in order to see how viable it was. That's your job! :) But if anyone does have any serious concerns about their choices, then please PM me, and I'm sure something can be sorted out.

So get those brains in gear folks, because it's unlikely you can just simply rely on Baalz's many excellent guides for this game :D

Now after all that I need a long rest, and a 24 hour break from Dominions (if my current games will let me that is. Damn speed merchants everywhere :()

[Burnsaber]

Ok, you have the options by calahan and want to test them out. But is the pretender too costy? Allow me to help! Copy this piece of code into some old mod.dm file you have lying around and edit it to make your pretender happen! (you can open & edit .dm files with a simple notepad or any equivalent)

Remember to activate CBM first, and after taht the mod you edited to include this piece. (so that all changes the CBM makes will be included in this new pretender)

#newmonster 2951
#copystats 1011 --- Set the monster number of the pretender in question here. You can see the monster number by clicking Shift-i while viewing the pretender in-game
#copyspr 1011 -- This command tells the game what moster sprite it uses for the unit. Should be the same as the copystat.
#name "This quoted text is example" -- This gives the monster a name. The name needs to be insade the quotes or **** will happen.
#magicskill 0 0 -- This command sets starting skill in FIRE magic. Set the amount by replacing the rightmost number (0).
#magicskill 1 0 -- This command sets starting skill in AIR magic. Set the amount by replacing the rightmost number (0).
#magicskill 2 0 -- This command sets starting skill in WATER magic. Set the amount by replacing the rightmost number (0).
#magicskill 3 0 -- This command sets starting skill in EARTH magic. Set the amount by replacing the rightmost number (0).
#magicskill 4 0 -- This command sets starting skill in ASTRAL magic. Set the amount by replacing the rightmost number (0).
#magicskill 5 0 -- This command sets starting skill in DEATH magic. Set the amount by replacing the rightmost number (0).
#magicskill 6 0 -- This command sets starting skill in NATURE magic. Set the amount by replacing the rightmost number (0).
#magicskill 7 0 -- This command sets starting skill in BLOOD magic. Set the amount by replacing the rightmost number (0).
#gcost 0 -- This command sets the pretenders starting cost
#startdom 1 -- This command sets the pretenders starting dominion
#pathcost 10 - This command sets the pretenders costs for additional paths.
#end


However, once you are done with testing, I suggest you remove the code.

[Baalz]

I'm actually pretty happy with the pretender I picked, but thought it might be interesting to post the potential pretenders that people didn't take and consider how the game might have gone. Here's the Sauromatia you're not going to have to fight:

Awake Vampire Queen F2 W9 E1 D9 B2

Dominion 3
Order 0
Production 1
Cold 3
Death 1
Misfortune 2
Drain 3

Man, I love the bless, that would have been naaaaasty with Sauro's sacred cavalry. Unfortunately they're cap only and a dominion of 3 would make unlocking that potential very difficult. As much fun as having an immortal slugger of such proportions (ironskin, fire shield, quicken self, life drain + fear & high defense) I think I'd spend the whole game lamenting the lack of dominion to use her in. And drain 3! That's not a scale you often see, particularly with heavy misfortune (gem loss events are common...yuck!) which also stacks with the death scale (pop loss events common...yuck!)

Certainly fits the description "AI made beast" to a T! :)

[Ferrosol]

the pretender you won't be facing from the Arcosphale


Dormant Mother of Serpents A5 W6 D6 N4 B2

Dominion 5
Order 1
Production 2
Cold 1
Death 1
Luck 2
Drain 3

not a bad pretender with access to plenty of buffs to make her a fairly respectable SC by the time she wakes up. Only problem is the bless is not good enough to rely on my wind riders for expansion and the scales aren't good enough to keep me alive long enough to do deal with any of the giant rushers. plus production scales and drain 3 make uncle ferrosols philosophers cry.

[Alpine Joe]

Good thought Baalz, as many people as possible should post their rejects. Mine was

Dormant Crone W9 S9 D9 N6

Dominion 2
Order 0
Sloth 3
Cold 3
Growth 1
Misfortune 2
Drain 3

that's an awesome bless, but with dom 2 and cap only sacreds it would be essentially useless. Tack on misfortune without order and drain 3 on the nation with vaetti hags (and sloth 3 to limit expansion) and this choice is pretty much unplayable. Unlike baalz my other choice isn't great either, but it will service I think.

[Baalz]

Heh, so far everyone has ditched drain-3 scales. Also, in retrospect a low dominion score might not be too terrible (outside of recruiting sacreds) because it looks like in general the AI isn't going with high dominions for you to push against.

Holy crap I'm glad that bless was attached to a tiny dominon Alpine Joe, it might even be worthwhile taking crap scales to bless giants thus...

[Dragar]

Those fighting Utgard won't be fighting

Awake Blue Dragon W9 D7

Dominion 3
Order 0
Production 2
Cold 3
Growth 1
Misfortune 3
Magic 1

Powerful early rush with the defence and fear, with reasonable scales, was a tough choice. Order 0 with Misfortune 3 is scary though. It is very intersting how low in Dom the pretenders all seem to be. It really does drop the bless advantage down a lot

[Calahan]

Some interesting choices coming in so far. And some obvious ones ;) Must admit though I'd have been tempted to go with the triple blessed X9X9X9X6 for Jotunheim. I like the thought of having every sacred commander I had becoming an instant thug!

One rejected build that caught my eye big time was.....

Imprisoned Oracle
F9W9E9S9 !!!!

Dominion 4
Turmoil 3
Sloth 3
Heat 3
Death 1
Misfortune 1
Drain 2

Awful scales of course, but could actually have been worse. Plus this bless with someone like Sauro or Vanheim would have been insane! Would they actually lose even a single sacred before mid-game I wonder? But thankfuuly for you all, have a guess which nation pulled this out of the hat.......... MA Ulm :doh:

It was also interesting how some nations constantly came up with good or bad designs. At first I thought it was just random, but after rejecting 11 designs for MA Ulm (8 EA Arco, 7 EA Vanheim, 7 MA Jotun) I came to the conclusion that there must be something else at work. Since the main problem wasn't that designs were unsuitable for the nation (although that was a problem) it was the huge number of design points left over each time (which I mentioned before).

But some nations rolled their choices straight off the bat. Sauro was one of them, as the two choices I gave Baalz were the first two that were created. I also created a third (which I did for everyone) and again that was fine, and better than the one Baalz rejected. Although like I did with everyone, I only offered the first two designs that I thought were viable, and did not create a load and then simply choose the best two.

[zlefin]

you won't be facing vanheim with:

Dormant Arch Mage F9 A6 E9 S5 N3

Dominion 2
Turmoil 3
Cold 3
Death 2
Luck 2
Drain 1

did some field testing in sp, it just don't work well. but i don't wanna give away all my secrets, so i'll leave it at that.
Zlefin :)

[zlefin]

i'd be curious to know what some of those other ones you rejected were calahan. how many points below were they and such.
mmm, lists.

[Burnsaber]

You won't be facing EA Hinnom with:

Dormant Lord of Rebirth E9 D3 N4 B4

Dominion 6
Order 3
Production 2
Heat 3
Growth 3
Misfortune 3
Drain 1

Note - This chassis produces gems in CBM

Let that sink in for a while.

I've never been so serious in my life, think about it. I'll wait..

.........


Yeah. I hit the god-damned jackpot of all possible +250 design point creations for EA Hinnom. E & N bless for the armored giants, production 2, order 3, even growth 3 for optimal bloodhunting!

That's the problem. It's too good.

I'm not playing this game to win it. That's just a goal not a purpose. I just know that I won't have much fun playing this design (my opponents won't either!). I want to have fun. My other design provides that, althought it's absolutely horrid.

[Fakeymcfake]

Burnsaber, my first thought was "If that's the one he rejected, god help us the other one must be absolutely monsterous."

Dormant Master Druid F4 A2 E9 S1 D5 N6

Dominion 5
Turmoil 2
Production 2
Cold 2
Growth 1
Luck 0
Magic 0

Anyhow, that's my reject.

[Calahan]

i'd be curious to know what some of those other ones you rejected were calahan. how many points below were they and such.
mmm, lists.
Still have some of the borderline candidates written down, although some of the obviously poor ones I didn't make a note of. (apart from our friend the 400+ points short Skratti I posted a few days ago). When my love of typing up a few dozen different Pretender designs returns, I will do so and post them up for those intereseted.

@ All - Most of you have PM-ed me your choices, but noticing one or two have selected their Pretender, posted their rejects, but have not yet PM-ed me their choice (unless they got lost it the forum mail). Would still appreciate a PM back from everyone though confirming their choice. Helps rubber stamp everthing :)

Edit: I have so far had PM's from the following players stating their choice. So my thanks for doing that goes to...

Burnsaber
zlefin
Drager
Falkor
Ferrosol
Alpine Joe
Baalz
Fakeymcfake

which leaves only the following left to decide.....

atul
Unoptimized

[atul]

Sorry, got home only an hour ago, currently just trying to figure out whether one of the designs is actually doable...

[atul]

Okay, this LA T'ien Ch'i pretender is not seen either:

Awake Mother of Rivers W9 E2 D8

Dominion 8
Turmoil 2
Production 2
Cold 3
Death 1
Luck 1
Drain 3

Bless is nice, free gems are nice, awake titan chassis is nice, domstr 8 is good for pushing dominion, but... Turmoil 2 Cold 3 Death 1 for no money and Drain 3 for no research... Gah.

Not that the second one would be more survivable either. :p

[Falkor]

I rejected this pretender for Nifelheim:

Awake Enchantress F2 A6 W4 E6 S4 N2 B4

Dominion 3
Order 0
Production 3
Cold 3
Growth 2
Misfortune 2
Drain 1

[Dragar]

you should have played it burnsaber!! in fact you still should.. it's not like we'd dogpile you or anything..

[Calahan]

I am now only waiting on Unoptimized to get back to me with a Pretender choice. I have sent another PM in case the original one didn't get delivered.

I hope it won't take me too long to get the mod created once I get all the Pretenders in, although apologies in advance if I have problems since I have never done any Dominions modding before. I might have time to start the mod tonight (since I only need all the Pretenders to complete the mod, but can start it without knowing them all) but failing that I won't have much free time again until Monday evening (GMT). Edit: Having just read what I wrote above, I realise I can go ahead and create two mods, and just use whichever one corresponds to Unoptimized's choice.

But I hope those mighty AI created beasts can be unleashed by the end of Monday at the latest :) (provided I hear back from Unoptimized of course).

[Calahan]

Ok, at this moment I can't see any reason why I won't be able to get this mod finished by the end of the day. Apart from having not heard back from Unoptimized yet that is.

@ Burnsaber - Not sure what you want to do about Unoptimized. Checked his profile page, and it says he has not visited the forums since 12th June. (I sent the Pretenders out after this time). Could push on ahead without him, or if one less player affects the map balance, you could advertise for a replacement. The replacement could have a choice of two nations, as I did Pretenders for Illuminated One / MA T'ien C'hi without realising he had dropped out in the meantime. Or I could generate two new Pretenders for the replacement's nation of choice. Pretenders for one nation shouldn't take me that long to get (cue for a curse to enter). Purely an admin decision though, which I will leave to you :)

[Burnsaber]

I'll give unoptimized 12 hours to respond.

After that, I'll open recruitment for 24 hours for either MA ULM or T'ien C'hi. If no one takes that bait, we'll just play with 9 players with a slighly smaller map.

[Burnsaber]

Considering how Unoptimized managed to post in the forums yesterday, I've inclined to give him some time. I've sent him a PM, asking him to show some signs of life regarding this game.

Should he fail to respond in 24 hours, I'll start looking for a sub.

[Calahan]

I have now heard back from Unoptimized, so will finish up the mod when I get home from work. Hope to squeeze in some play-testing as well to make sure it works ok.

Almost kick-off time folks :) and many thanks for your patience.

[Calahan]

I have finished the mod, and it's all ready to go apart from one small potential problem that I want to run by Burnsaber. As soon as I hear back from him with either a solution or a nod in the directon of 'it doesn't matter', then I can post the mod for the game to start.

Many thanks to everyone for all the kind words in their PM replies. I like to consider myself a generally helpful person, and was more than happy to help out here so that everyone can enjoy a unique type of game. Also managed to learn a bit about modding in the process, so I've benefitted from all this as well :)

[Dragar]

Awesome, thanks Calahan, can't wait :)

[Calahan]

The mods required should be attached to this post. I unfortunately had to make a very slight change to the CBM mod as well, which was the final problem I wanted to run by Burnsaber, so you will need this altered CBM mod as well now. Didn't want to do this, but the alternative might have had some effects on late game (which may well have been good effects actually, but not my call) as Seraphs could well have been relegated down the wish list a bit!

The two mods are called...
- Sentient Machines
- Sentient Machines CBM 1.5

Not ideal having two mods, but it seems to work ok (although only quickly tested). The two mods could easily be integrated, but that would have taken me some time since I would have been tip-toeing around carefully in fear of breaking some of CBM's changes. So thought it best to use two mods so the game can start asap.

I'm guessing you will also need the single age mod. which I think this is the link for.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=34265

But I'm sure Burnsaber will put everything you need on the status page now that the mod is finished.

Please shout out (post or PM) as soon as possible if you have any problems creating your Pretenders. I've checked that the creation of each Pretender is possible with these mods active, but I might have gone blind and not noticed one had Earth 6 instead of Earth 7 for example. So please report any problems you find, as I've tried to be as tight as possible with spare design points remaining with each build (since that makes it harder to know the magic paths on other Pretenders)

Thanks again everyone, and best of luck to all :)

[Burnsaber]

Ok. I combined the CBM, llamabanners and the Calahan's modified pretenders into a single mod and attachted it to the first post.

I'll put up the game on llamaserver within the next 12 hours. Hopefully we will be able to start on friday or saturday.

[Calahan]

Thanks Burnsaber. You combined the mods 10x faster than I could have :)

[Burnsaber]

OK, game is up on the Llamaserver. See the link.

Be absolutely sure that you have made the pretender exactly as in the PM sent by Calahan.

http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Sentient_Machines

Send in your AI pretenders! Let this descent into madness begin!

[Fakeymcfake]

I'm going to be out of touch this weekend so depending on when everyone turns in their pretenders you may have to wait on me for the first turn. I should be able to have everything sorted sometime in the afternoon EST on monday.

[Dragar]

C'mon peoples, pretender creation really shouldn't be too time consuming for this one ;)

[atul]

Ooo, all in.

Can we start the game, can we? Even if the first turn is with longer host time.

[Burnsaber]

Ooo, all in.

Can we start the game, can we? Even if the first turn is with longer host time.

Game Started!

[Calahan]

Good to see this game up and running :) Any problems with the mod at all?

And why is there no smilie for :seeks confirmation that no balls-up's were made in creating the mod:

[atul]

No problems here.

Apart from Hinnom steamrolling everyone and already being twice the size of next nation! Ganging time!

[Calahan]

That's some awesome hostility atul, considering it's only turn 2 ;)

[atul]

Us underdogs must work together. :)

Hinnom! Twice the size!

[Unoptimized]

OK guys, not sure what is going on, but my laptop is REFUSING to admit that turn files exist after I download them, or try to send them. I can only assume this is because I copy-pasted Dom from my main comp, with xp, to my new comp, with vista. I'm sorry about the trouble but if there could be a delay till wend. I would appreciate it. If not, I'll take my stale along with my lumps

[atul]

Vista has its files in different directory system than XP. So that's probably the reason it won't work.

I think there are several threads about it.

[atul]

Does this thread help:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42621&highlight=dominions+vista

?

[Burnsaber]

I postponed hosting by 24h in order for you to sort your laptop, Unoptimized.

I also had troubles with vista, they were solved once I moved the dom3 away from the program files directory.

[Calahan]

'Vista' is actually the name of a unique blood summon which will be available to Lanka in the next patch.

The mythology will be that 'Vista' is a Devil Lord who comes straight from Hell itself, and will bring great pain and misery to all those who come into contact with it.

[Burnsaber]

No problems here.

Apart from Hinnom steamrolling everyone and already being twice the size of next nation! Ganging time!

Argh! Drats!

You saw through my "I don't want to win, I want to have fun" plot! My other pretender choice was actually awake cyclops with E9N9W9 dom9 and all scales at positive max!

But you are too late! My powers are already too strong! All the bases are mine! My is power twice the leng... size of yours. Bwa-ha-haa!

[Burnsaber]

Hmm. Apparently unoptimized was unable to fix his problem in time. I've dealyed the current hosting by 24h and PM'd unoptimized about the situation. Unless he either

1)Manages to fix the problem
2)Gets back to his desktop

We might have to search for a sub.

[Burnsaber]

The search for a sub has begun!

[Burnsaber]

Sub found. Pelthin is now in control of MA Ulm.

Game will now continue with regular scheducle.

[Pelthin]

Gulp. Starting this turn, man I have tons of gold and no Resources.

Prior to reading this thread all the way through, I looked at my pretender, and was like Oh man, I am going to kick ***.

Then I realized that everyone has this kind of monster for a pretender and I am a few turns behind.

Fear the Blackness of my Forces!!!

Or.. Please don't kill me.. ;)

:angel <==== See I am a little angel. :)

[atul]

...well at least we all know who gets fordo's hobbits this time. And you're in steady research lead to boot, too.

[Falkor]

Thanks for joining the game Pelthin.
Good Luck!

[atul]

So... time to kill mr misfortune preventor?

[Falkor]

Next turn, IIRC.

[Burnsaber]

So... time to kill mr misfortune preventor?

He/she (male name but female graphic? Sure modness) attacks on turn 8. So wait for one more turn.

I'm going to send a in-game message this turn to remind everyone about the sacrifice next turn.

[Burnsaber]

On a separate notice, I was wondering if I should make the "Game Device" a separate stand-alone mod, replacing all national scouts. Might be useful for games where you want to eliminate "lab/temple burns on turn 2 dropouts).

Would there be intrest in such mod?

[Alpine Joe]

Ugh Baalz, that was the last thing I wanted to see pop out at the end of year one.....

[atul]

Pst... Information wants to be free.

What? Where? How?

[Baalz]

There are actually no witnesses, everyone who saw whatever happened turned to stone....

[llamabeast]

What is the "Game Device" Burn?

[atul]

Those 1 hp old geezers with 100% bad event prevention, I guess.

Seriously, with these scales, came in need.

[Burnsaber]

What is the "Game Device" Burn?

I made a special mod for this game, which replaces all starting couts (from the nations in this game) with a "Game Device" unit. It has ridiciliously low combat stats, over 1000 years of old age, mapmove 5, flying and 100% bad event prevention.

The idea was to prevent crippling bad events from happening in the capitol for the first 8 turns. (on turn 8, we all sended our game devices flying towards closest hostile province, killing them.)

[Alpine Joe]

Well looks like I'm the earliest exit from Sentient_Machines, courtesy of Baalz's Androphag archers. Well played Baalz, I hope to fight you again sometime.

I have some 70 gems that I will send to anyone who promises to declare war on Sauromatia. After that I will go AI.

Good playing with all of you, great game idea burnsaber. I wish I could have enjoyed it longer. ;(

[Fakeymcfake]

Going to need a delay until midday thursday as I'm moving. Probably won't need that long but with moving who knows.

[Baalz]

I will definitely avenge you Joe, send your gems this way! gg, thanks for playing. :)

[Burnsaber]

Going to need a delay until midday thursday as I'm moving. Probably won't need that long but with moving who knows.

Hosting delayed by 48 hours.

[Calahan]

I will definitely avenge you Joe, send your gems this way! gg, thanks for playing. :)
I think the next game I admin will have a system in place where each player is honour bound to give all their gems/items/gold to the nation(s) that conquers them. As this seems more realistic to me than for the entire treasure horde of an empire to suddenly and instantly 'disappear' the moment the enemy turns up to claim it.

[Ferrosol]

Well looks like I'm the earliest exit from Sentient_Machines, courtesy of Baalz's Androphag archers. Well played Baalz, I hope to fight you again sometime.

I have some 70 gems that I will send to anyone who promises to declare war on Sauromatia. After that I will go AI.

Good playing with all of you, great game idea burnsaber. I wish I could have enjoyed it longer. ;(

I will likely be not too far behind you Alpine so do not worry :)

[atul]

I think the next game I admin will have a system in place where each player is honour bound to give all their gems/items/gold to the nation(s) that conquers them. As this seems more realistic to me than for the entire treasure horde of an empire to suddenly and instantly 'disappear' the moment the enemy turns up to claim it.

Well it isn't like cowardly rulers stashing every valuable they can into chests and escaping through hidden boatway to nearby lake while their loyal citicens lose their lives with valiant last stand wouldn't be a classic. If you're after realism you can always assume that the deposed nobility pays for their safe haven in new lands with those treasures...

[zlefin]

if it's realism it really would be a mix. some sort of plunder system (which just isn't present in the game), with some of the rest going to people who went to neighboring lands people flee to, or allies. it also depends on how portable magic gems really are, in game they can be freemoved between labs, though that is likely just for gameplay convenience. Certainly, if you can teleport stuff, i'd expect people to teleport out all the valuables during a siege. and like i say, sure we all want to be pantokrator, but even he had his generals of the east and west, and a few other oddities. While most gods get cast down, those subservient to the victor might get some decent posts.
As to plunder, well, in a certain sense, getting the land itself, and all the gold and gem income it comes with is pretty nice.
another issue would be, if you're captured, how do such spoils get distributed amongst invaders? who verifies quantities are accurate? and when would plunder be acquired? whatever point you make it as, some people will just send it all away a turn sooner. or put all the gems on commanders who will die in the final siege, or alchemize it all away, and bid a jillion on a merecenary. The more i think, it just seems rather impractical to have such a system. If anything, i'd just limit such a system to no giving away all your stuff when you die, it dies with you. but even then, there's the issue of at what point that should be.

[Baalz]

Eeep, I need an extension. I think the llamaserver goofed, I don't think I got my turn but just got a notification that the turns about to host. 12 hours should give me time to get to it.

[Baalz]

Okay, there's definitely something wonky. I just went to check if a delay got put in while I was driving home and I see that we're now on turn 18, and I haven't received it either. Neither turn 17 nor 18 was sent to me, though a notice that the game was going to host in 6 hours (for turn 17) was. Looks like I've staled once and can't get this turn. :( Going to bed now, guess I'll see if I can figure out anything in the morning.

[atul]

I had a similar wonkiness in noobs vs vets a while ago, llamaserver didn't send me a turn. Requesting turn resend did work though, and it didn't give me any problems after one incident.

[Burnsaber]

I extented the clock to gice Baalz some time. I've read that the Llamaserver is failing to send a lot of turns at the moment.

Since the stale wasn't any fault of Baalz, I think that rollback might be justifiable. Baalz, do you want one?

[Baalz]

I appreciate it, but I find rollbacks tend to cause problems for games ("you changed your orders after you saw the results!") so I'll just suck up the stale. Resend did work, so I'm set for this turn so hopefully it's just a one turn loss.

[Ferrosol]

Ok set myself to AI well done to LA utgard for throwing back my invasion. For anyone who is interested my real god was


Dormant Lady of Love A4 W6 E7 N5

Dominion 8
Turmoil 2
Production 3
Cold 2
Growth 2
Misfortune 1
Drain 2

[Burnsaber]

Ok set myself to AI well done to LA utgard for throwing back my invasion. For anyone who is interested my real god was


Dormant Lady of Love A4 W6 E7 N5

Dominion 8
Turmoil 2
Production 3
Cold 2
Growth 2
Misfortune 1
Drain 2

I have to admit, that's pretty.. hard. At least the god & bless was nice.

For all wondering, the proud nation of Hinnom has decided to assault the wicked Sauromatians, who are growing too powerfull. All nations who join us in noble our effort will be awarded with gems, gold and a NAP agreement.

The servants of the Seventh Son, the offspring of god will not falter until the Sauromatian menace is cleansed.

[Baalz]

In other words, if you fear Hinnom, now's your chance to make sure they don't run over the world. Wait until they take down Sauromatia and it'll likely be too late...

[Fakeymcfake]

I'm going to need a delay of game since I'll be out of town for the entire weekend. Should be home by midday monday EST.

[Burnsaber]

I'm going to need a delay of game since I'll be out of town for the entire weekend. Should be home by midday monday EST.

Duly noted. I'll delay the next turn.

[Burnsaber]

Erh. Baalz really outplayed me there. Freaking Swarm. And of course he lucked out to a E4S3N6 Medusa. Ugh...

I'll keep up resistance as long as I can, but know this. Without help, Hinnom will fall and sauromatia will add our power to theirs.

[Baalz]

Gah, it seems like llamaserver is pretty regularly not sending me my turns now. I'm sending a msg to llamabeast and manually monitoring, but if you see me about to stale that's why so an extension would be appreciated.

[Burnsaber]

Gah, it seems like llamaserver is pretty regularly not sending me my turns now. I'm sending a msg to llamabeast and manually monitoring, but if you see me about to stale that's why so an extension would be appreciated.

Ok, duly noted. I'll try to keep an eye on the game status page.

[Baalz]

Erh. Baalz really outplayed me there. Freaking Swarm. And of course he lucked out to a E4S3N6 Medusa. Ugh...

I'll keep up resistance as long as I can, but know this. Without help, Hinnom will fall and sauromatia will add our power to theirs.

Hinnom may eat everything but a wise man doesn't eat the poisoned apple. That's the second dragon backed by giants to go down in this early game, Sautomatia officially claims the title Giant Dragon Slayer.

[Fakeymcfake]

Lost my capital and will likely lose my last army next turn so I'm setting myself to AI. Interesting game though I have to choose a more versatile nation if I ever play this sort of game again.

[Burnsaber]

And so the fall of the Seventh Son is avenged. Terminator was slain by the dawn blade of Gomar, the repahaite warrior.

Once the Sauromatian presence is cleansed, there will be feast!

[off-char]

But you really got me there, Baalz. Never thought that arouse hunger could be that good with the recent cbm buff. Now I know better.

[/off-char]

[zlefin]

move bug has hit me twice in a row. I'm trying to isolate things a little while it's still fresh. I'm also not sure how I'm gonna do my turn, as getting hosed on the move twice in a row rather sucks.

[Pelthin]

Man I suck at ULM. I am down to my last few prov, and since I seem to be totally inept I am going to set myself to AI.

I just lost a huge battle for my Fort, and don't seem to have any counters for Vanheim. I really need to do some reading up on that.

But lightning just seems to be the bain of my troops. Even my elite troops get decimated by it, of course I did manage to outfit my prophet so he didn't die in the attack, but he didn't do anything either other than rout. :)

It was fun, and I learned a lot. Hope everyone has fun!

[atul]

I would need 12h extension for current turn. Thanks.

[Burnsaber]

I would need 12h extension for current turn. Thanks.

Delay granted.

[atul]

I'm off to Norway today (Sunday), coming back on Thursday. My current turn is in, QM said he'd either find me a sub or sub himself. It might've been a jest to get me sub a turn in Forge, but if that's the case, shame and blame on him. :p

Cya later!

[Burnsaber]

I'm off to Norway today (Sunday), coming back on Thursday. My current turn is in, QM said he'd either find me a sub or sub himself. It might've been a jest to get me sub a turn in Forge, but if that's the case, shame and blame on him. :p

Cya later!

I'll give an extension, if qm wants to sub, he can contact me with his e-mail.

[Baalz]

The children of the Vanir cry out "who will save us?". They stare fearfully into the spreading swamps knowing the dark, fearful things stalk them from the shadows. "Save us!" they cry "For in saving us you save yourselves!".

Bah, where have the proud women of Vanheim gone? Do they cower with the children begging for big strong giants to come save them? Yet another self destructive nation has brought war against the Goddess of the Mountains and Lady of the Hunt. The corpse of Hinnom twitches fresh, yet the Vanir believe the lesson taught here is to attack into the swamp?

Come, little children, we will play a game...for now, the Lady of the Hunt stalks Vanir. As the peoples of Vanheim are flayed, their flesh claimed by warriors and lifesblood offered to the Lady's glory see the divine in this. Other nations forsake your false idols and proclaim for the Lady's ascension, for there is a grain of truth to the mewing from Vanheim. The bodies of Sauromatia's enemies will be piled deep while our friends feast to victory.

[Burnsaber]

Hosting time updated.

[Burnsaber]

Allrighty, I have made myself AI. There isn't anything I can at this point against Sauromatia.

For those intrested, my "build" was:

W9A9D4B4!? Sleeping Blue Dragon with:

Dominion 4
Order 1
Sloth 3
Heat 3
Death 3
Misfortune 1

Even with sloth 3, Hinnom one scary nation (althought I couldn't build Melqarts, I didn't have the resources :D). Expanding with Horites was suprisingly effective and with the farmlands near me, I was able to expand pretty well. My gold income rocketed and I was able to spam forest forts like mad. Mt blessing proved very scary on the few sacreds I was able to build. I was really confident in my start, but I forgot one crucial thing.

Never, ever, neverever, mess with Baalz playing with a nation that has blood and death access

So I attacked Sauromatia and things were going pretty well, but then he managed to kill my god by routing him and taking the single available retreat province. Apparently he had Medusa as his god that was able to fly to that retreat province I thought was 100% secure. This why you use scouts, kids! I was pretty dependant upon my god, and I didn't have the temples or the priests to call him back.

Baalz then continued to spoil my fantastic gold income with well placed Arouse Hungers, which apparently now with CBM boosts can beat giant PD under strenght 5. Didn't see that coming at all. When the Toads started dropping from the skies, my capital was shut down and my sweet sacreds with it.

With my gold income spoiled, so was my research, as I couldn't keep recruiting Ammies. As Baalz kept on pouring new and new toys at me, I was forced to send more and more mages to support my armies in the front-lines, which slowed my research even further.

Really, I'm sort of embarrased. I could have done better, but I'll take this an learning experience. My only saving grace was my Mazzikims, that kicked some serious arse with str boosts and body etheral (being size 1, you can hit five of them with single casting).

[Baalz]

GG Burnsaber! You put up quite a fight under a brutal barrage, and your roving bands of mages & summons continued to rampage around for an impressively long time after I got you in a sleeper hold. I was pushing for a dominion kill as I wasn't entirely confident I could kill your last forces without great losses, but in the end I saw the opportunity. That rain of toads capital lockdown is pretty brutal on nations reliant on capital troops/mages, but also works well if you can bring it to bear in the early game when people have just a couple forts - can you imagine if you hadn't been able to spam up those forest forts? :)

[zlefin]

i need an extension (or may need, better safe than sorry).
I downloaded my turn file today, and got a message from dom that the turn was corrupt. I tried redownloading, and I tried having the turn resent by llamaserver with no success, it's still saying the turn is corrupt. So i'm gonna try to figure out what's causing this, but it's quite unclear if a solution will be found today; and the war with sauro is quite sensitive, and a stale would be quite bad for it.

[Burnsaber]

i need an extension (or may need, better safe than sorry).
I downloaded my turn file today, and got a message from dom that the turn was corrupt. I tried redownloading, and I tried having the turn resent by llamaserver with no success, it's still saying the turn is corrupt. So i'm gonna try to figure out what's causing this, but it's quite unclear if a solution will be found today; and the war with sauro is quite sensitive, and a stale would be quite bad for it.

I gave 48h extension, if **** really has happened, we might need llamas help. Unfortunately he is unable to access llamaserver at the moment, so... *shrug*

Game delayed by 48 hours

[zlefin]

asking around in channel, the answer i got was that the only way to fix this kind of thing is to rehost the turn. given the number of major battles and such i dont' want to rush into such a drastic measure.
though i have tried everything plausible otherwise, so i'm not sure what else could be done to fix this, other than simply staling my next turn (not fun during a war).
could we have some discussion/opinion by the other players in the game? i was hoping some of y'all would be on irc, but i ain't seen much.
Zlefin, Vanheim

[archaeolept]

llama's own advice when this has happened before is to rehost the turn. You can just re-use the already received 2h files; however, if that does not work, and it very well might not, then everyone needs to resend in the files... I guess it would be preferable if they were new ones, just to avoid the possibility that the source of the corruption is from one of the player's sent 2h's.

[zlefin]

success! with the rehost, this new turn is not corrupt. play can proceed now.
burn isn't sure whether it's necessary to delete the old 2h files before taking your turn, but it may be safer.
if anyone has advice on avoiding problems caused by the rollback, feel free to speak up.
Zlefin, Vanheim

[zlefin]

i'm ready to concede the game to baalz's sauro. The war was valiant, but he was bigger, and not enough other people joined in. I'll last awhile yet, but i think in about 12-15 turns sauro's dom will kill everyone, so unless niefelheim starts dropping some major scs to clear out the army of temples.
Zlefin, vanheim :)

[Dragar]

can't end soon enough for utgard!

[Baalz]

So, I'm happy to keep playing if anybody thinks they've got something they can pull out, but I'd be very surprised if I hit so much as a big speedbump on my way to victory at this point. Anybody challenge my claim that I've won?

[zlefin]

well, i dont' hear any challenges, and i've conceded, so i'm gonna stop doing turns, since it looks like an uncontested win claim.
People shoulda piled on when i first told 'em what you were up to, then maybe :P

[atul]

Well I was happily storming Fomoria's castle and then planning on attacking Sauro "for the common good" on like turn 25 or so, but those giants of Jotunwhatsoever came and piled on my troops...

Not that Order-0 Cold-3 Misf-2 Drain-2 dominion would be in any way good for long-term survival. Fun concept in this game, but AI design seriously leaves some holes into play. :)

[Falkor]

My cannons are too small.
Congrats Baalz.

[Calahan]

As the one who rolled the Pretenders for this game, it wasn't hard to know who to put my money on as the most likely winner.

Some really weird creations came out of the AI-designer, but compared to a lot of the others, Baalz pretty much hit the jackpot with his Gorgon and magic 3 scale. Not perfect by a long way, but IIRC Baalz's scales in particular were pretty nice compared to everyone else, with no nasty maxed out Death / Drain / Misfortune to have to deal with.

I'll have a dig about to see if I still have the master and reject lists of Pretenders for this game.


And of course congrats to Baalz :)

Did anyone actually manage to Magic Duel that Gorgon or not?

[Burnsaber]

Alright, it's official. Baalz is the winner.

Congrats to Baalz. You really knew how to push that Gorgon-vantage (still, I sometimes wake up at night, crying for my beautiful W9A9D4B4 Blue Dragon) and bloodsaccing was a very nice choice of stragedy.

In hindsight, the game could have used a smaller map (to make the game flow quicker and to make death scales less crippling). Minimum dom of 5 in all designs could also have been a great idea.

So yeah, if anyone wants to start a another game with this concept, I can generate the AI gods for that.

[zlefin]

i know i informed allies a couple times when gorgon was vulnerable, but noone teleported apparently. I still think baalz mighta been beaten if people piled on him, but from what i saw on the graphs, despite my desperate warnings, noone else really seriously attacked sauro as we neared the point of no return. If niefel had really charged in during that point maybe it coulda been broken up some. oh well, i came in 3rd ish, or maybe tied for 3rd. Which is a fine result by my book :)

[atul]

Congrats Baalz and thanks for the game everyone!