Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds

[Atreidi]

List your Super Combatant and build:

Example:
(My number one)(for SP mode)

Golem
---------------
Enchanted Sword
Lucky Coin
Astral Cap (forgot the name it gives +1A)
Robe of Shadows (I think thats what its called)
Anti-magic Ammulet
Optional Equipment: (Depending on what nation im playing)
Bottle of Living Water
or
Dancing Blades
Quickening Boots

I ususally have the golem cast Astral Shield
and attack rear
Works great against chaff units.
I only use Astral gems to summon it and equip it.
Wich I always have because of arcane nexus. :)

[Psycho]

Golem
---------------
A brand
Gold shield
Astral cap
Marble armor
Boots of quickness
Anti-magic amulet
Girdle of might

in the rear, script: personal luck, body ethereal, 3 x hold, attack


Seraph
---------------
Frost brand
Vine shield
Rime hauberk
Boots of messenger
Anti-magic amulet
Amulet of resilience

in the rear, script: phoenix pyre, personal luck, 3 more buffs depending on opposition, cast spells

[Micah]

Air Tartarian Cyclops:

Flambeau or fire brand/faithful
rainbow armor
dragon helm
quickness boots
antimagic amulet
regen ring

script 5 of: summon earthpower, resist lightning, mirror image, mistform, invuln, iron will, summon storm power. With a support army for fog warriors and antimagic iron will and mistform aren't needed, so the other 5 go, otherwise cutting summon storm power is a given, and the last spot is between lightning res, mistform and invuln in terms of overall usefulness.

[Psycho]

When I get those guys I only think rain of stones.

Air Tartarian Cyclops:
armor of virtue, ama, optionally ring of regen for afflictions, optionally storm stuff
4 earth gems
script 2 x rain of stones

[Ynglaur]

I thought Tartarians couldn't benefit from regeneration because they're undead.

[Executor]

3 earth gems is enough, no need to waste.

Anit Tart SC

-----Golem

Holy Scourge
Astral Cap
Jade Armor
Stone Bird
Anitimagic Amulet
Winged Shoes

Attack Tartarian!

Tartarians do benefit from regeneration, lifeless undead don't.

[Illuminated One]

@Ynglaur

Undead can, lifeless stuff (Golems) can't.

[Ynglaur]

Nice! Thanks!

[Psycho]

I don't know if three earth gems is enough, as tartarian has E3 and can spend all three on his first casting. If you tested it, then ok, but I'd take four just to be safe.

[Executor]

That is actually similar to the build I use, just you only have 22MR with no place for rainbow armor and taking the staff of storms instead of lead shield to protect from those mind hunts.

[TheDemon]

Rudra:
Skull Staff, Brand, Shield of Gleaming Gold
Horned Helm
Hydra Skin Armor
Boots of the Messenger
Amulet of MR

Script Blessing (you'll want at least minor earth/nature), Soul Vortex, Phoenix Pyre, hold x2, attack rear. Add Mistform or Mirror Image as necessary, and you have a whole host of other buffs available if the situation calls for one. Best deployed with one Rudra holding a Staff of Storms and S3 mages to cast Luck and Body Ethereal and a H3 divne blesser, but you can get away with less.

Alternately:
Brand, Flambeau/Gate Cleaver, Vine Shield
Skullface
Chain Mail of Displacement
Boots of the Messenger
Amulet of MR

Same script. If you deploy as purely anti-thug or anti-SC, the death booster is unnecessary since you need first strike and you'd be better served with a horned helm.


Of course these builds aren't perfect, either would be great with Rainbow Armor to defend vs Mind Hunt and the like. You'll definitely need a N minor bless in that case, and W wouldn't hurt either.

[Il Magno]

P-A-Z-U-Z-U

and some gear like mage bane, the medusa shield (pietrify), some rings to regen or protect him from fire or other

I am playing this guy in a solo game. :):shock:

[MaxWilson]

List your Super Combatant and build:

For cost-effectiveness and mobility, I really like:

Hashmal (21 gems) (E10/N6 bless)
Shadow Brand (10D/5E)
Lucky Coin (10S)
Bracers of Protection x2 (10E)

[Blessing, Blessing, Attack Rearmost]

I also love Wraith Lords.

Wraith Lord (40 gems IIRC)
Fire Brand (5F/5E)
Shield of Gleaming Gold (5F/5E)
Lucky Pendant (5S)
Optional: Winged Boots (10A)
Free slots can be used for resists

[Soul Vortex, Attack Large Enemy Monsters]

Another cost-effective, Ashdod-only option is the Zamzummite:

3D1E1F Zamzummite (310 gold)
Robe of Shadows (10S)
Skull of Fire (5F/5D)
Lucky Pendant (10S)
Optional: Gate Cleaver (15E) for castle-cracking.

[Blessing, Ironskin, Phoenix Pyre, hold, Soul Vortex, Attack Rearmost]

-Max

[mighty_scoop]

Not a sc build but a suitable question ... read a lot that an alternative to tartarian scs are the elemental royalty. This are lvl 8 summons, aren't they ? Are they good as anti-scs or vs armies and what would be good equipment for them ?

mighty_scoop

[Burnsaber]

For cost-effectiveness and mobility, I really like:

Hashmal (21 gems) (E10/N6 bless)
Shadow Brand (10D/5E)
Lucky Coin (10S)
Bracers of Protection x2 (10E)

[Blessing, Blessing, Attack Rearmost]



I actually like my Hashmal even more cost-effective and just use a Lucky Pendant + Bracer of Protection for equipment.

IMHO, Hashmals are the perfect PD killers due to awe + ethereal, but those abilities really suck when facing opposing thugs or mages. Whne facing any kind of planned opposition, they go *boof*, no matter the equipment. Since they're so vulnerable to them already, I try to keep them as cheap as possible and use their numbers and mobility as a sudden strike raiding force. This is especially good if you hav ehold of an conjuration bonus site. Equipping them with a weapon is a waste, they already have a perfectly good area attack (unless facing abyssians). So well, my version:

Raiding Hashmal

Hashmal (21 gems) (E10/N6 bless)
Lucky Pendant (5 astral)
Bracers of Protection x1 (5E)

[Blessing, Blessing, Holy Avenger, Hold, Hold, Attack Archers]*

*Place at the very back of the battlefield.

[Agema]

Not a sc build but a suitable question ... read a lot that an alternative to tartarian scs are the elemental royalty. This are lvl 8 summons, aren't they ? Are they good as anti-scs or vs armies and what would be good equipment for them ?

mighty_scoop

I think they are weak anti-SC builds. I think they're best as solo raiders or for casting big BF spells. Only the Air Queens can "ambush" enemies by using Cloud Trapeze. It's also a real pain getting any of the others to fly, as the common way is winged boots and none have boot slots. You'll definitely want to give them more MR, and probably a touch of reinvigoration. Some would benefit from regeneration. The frailer ones might need heavier armour, the ones with decent natural protec can get away with weaker stuff around 10. Basic sort of idea as any SC after that really. Resistance against whatever they're likely to face, and - probably - an area effect weapon like a fire brand. If you just want to use them as battlefield spellpower support, you'd probably get away with just +MR and reivigoration.

Water Queens are awesome in the sea. Not so many HP (60 or so), but massive regeneration. Out of the sea, not so great. They'll do well as combat raiders.

Earth Kings are good. Over 100HP, regenerating, high natural protection. Arguably the best, and the likeliest to be able to take on a Tartarian and win. Also can go underwater.

Air Queens are good but fragile. About 50HP, and ethereal. This means they're lethal going through troops, but as mistform is cancelled and ethereality ineffective against magic damage, they're at risk of death in a few hits from a big thug/SC or spells.

Fire Kings are generally considered the weakest. A big advantage is they can cast Phoenix Pyre, take a big fatigue hit but will reappear on the BF alive as long as fatigue is under 100. They're quite different. One is pretty tough (but not as so as an Earth King), the other is 50HP ethereal.

[Psycho]

Air queens can be good anti-SCs against anything that is not lightning immune. Try this: attack one turn, orb lightning. It will most likely turn your opponent SC's fatigue over 100 (maybe with an aid of one air booster or summon stormpower). Even luck doesn't help against this fatigue damage.

[Agema]

I mostly agree - the limitation is that if you've got air queens, you're likely a powerful air nation and anyone halfway sensible sending SCs against you will have 100% shock resistance.

[vfb]

The Djinn is pretty fun. He can get heroic abilities. Doesn't need much in the way of gear, which is good because you never know when another nation is going to put him back in the bottle!

[Psycho]

I love djinn, he's the best spellcaster in the game. He has one problem though - if he's fighting anything smaller than size 6, he's just going to try to trample them, which may not be what you wanted.

[ano]

In most cases Djinn will beat an opponent even with trample. There're a few SC's that are able to hit through his 35 Defence (acquired easily). Also, Djinn will inevitably appear in HoF (maybe even after his very first battle because trampling produces much XP) and then (attention!) you may reforge the lamp and then get him back with Ritual of Rebirth. It is probably a bug that he is not unique...
To make Djinn tremendously effective you need:
Vine Shield
Another good shield with high parry
Starshine skullcap (optional, to have more MR)
Ring of Regeneration
Pendant of Luck

Even with 2 shields he will still have fist attack which is not bad considering his parameters even against size 6 enemies (which you don't want to meet of course). Probably, it is Djinn's feature.

Script:
Iron will
Invul
Earthpower
Mistform
Mirror Image

You just don't have place in script to cast luck so you have to use an item. But it may be replaced with Stone Bird for even better parameters if you find place for Luck in your script.
Djinn is awesome and quite hard to kill.

[MaxWilson]

It's also a real pain getting any of the others to fly, as the common way is winged boots and none have boot slots.

*snip*

Fire Kings are generally considered the weakest. A big advantage is they can cast Phoenix Pyre, take a big fatigue hit but will reappear on the BF alive as long as fatigue is under 100. They're quite different. One is pretty tough (but not as so as an Earth King), the other is 50HP ethereal.

Stymphalian Wings are a great way to get an Earth King to fly.

The King of Banefire is probably my favorite elemental royalty, since his built-in attack causes Plague. Also, he can cast Soul Vortex + Phoenix Pyre, which is a very fun combination. However, Air Queens are probably more powerful because they have mobility.

-Max

[SlipperyJim]

Air Queens are good but fragile. About 50HP, and ethereal. This means they're lethal going through troops, but as mistform is cancelled and ethereality ineffective against magic damage, they're at risk of death in a few hits from a big thug/SC or spells.

My favorite Air Queen trick is a carry-over from Dom:PPP, and it leverages her three strengths:

Mobility (Cloud Trapeze and/or flying)
Strong Air MAgic
Built-in 100% Shock Resistance

Give the Air Queen a Staff of Storms, some other decent gear, and a fistful of Air gems. Script her to cast "Wrathful Skies" on the very first turn of combat. Then Cloud Trapeze her into one of your opponents' armies and watch the carnage. The whole battlefield gets struck by lightning ... and she's immune to it! If the opposing force isn't also 100% immune to Shock, then you can kill hundreds of troops with this combo.


PS: The same trick also works with Pazuzu, if you're so inclined....

[Lingchih]

Gorgon.

Give it E9 and awe. Equip her with a shield of some sort on the first turn. Then, send it out to kill. Equip it better as turns progress.

Works pretty well... only applicable to a few nations though.

[chrispedersen]

From a recent game.... not the best I've ever had but a lot of fun:
I had to trim out his slots, this was him essentially naked. His regeneration was 100+ per turn. I kept switching out equipment as necessary. He ended up fighting 2-3 of the doom horrors singlehandedly and winning.

[Tolkien]

I remember that. You enslaved my prophet. :(

[Dragar]

Yeah I love Pedoisean. Stymphalian wings and other equipment as appropriate, summo nearth power, iron will, invulnerability, reinvigorate and let him fly :)

[chrispedersen]

I remember that. You enslaved my prophet. :(


Thats ok.. you enslaved Pazuzu = )

[Arcturas]

Speaking of enslavement, I just had the AI (Ashdod) Control the Dead my King of Banefires... :doh: Guess that's what I get for taking an ammy of luck instead of MR. I suppose what with the soul vortex and banefire aura and shield of gleaming gold, luck was a little unnecessary...

Live and learn! Got him back, though. (loving the Tomb Kings nation) Now I can have two of them!

[Tolkien]

I remember that. You enslaved my prophet. :(


Thats ok.. you enslaved Pazuzu = )
Before you Master-Enslaved him back (and 20 hawks) in the same battle.:)

[Jarkko]

You people don't generally use Bone Armour then? I've been thinking it is pretty standard SC gear. Sure, it is expensive in gems, but it keeps the SC going and going like a duracell bunny.

[Executor]

It's waaaay too expensive to use! Not to mention it's 30 deaths gems (including the hammer) and not fire or air.

[MaxWilson]

It's also high encumbrance IIRC and low Prot. Soul Vortex is nice and all, but it's mainly an anti-chaff spell and really, there are other ways to get regen and 0 net encumbrance that don't have such a high opportunity cost. Plus, relying only on Soul Vortex is an invitation to get skelly-spammed to death.

I guess the question I should be asking is: what commanders/equipment setups do you think would benefit from Bone Armor? I could maybe see it on a Tartarian or a Cyclops because they tend to have Earth magic for Prot, don't need Ethereal, and doubled HP on a Cyclops (let alone a Tartarian) is enough to survive Gifts From the Heavens!

-Max

[vfb]

Something tough and lifeless, like a Poison Golem or Gargoyle.

[Arcturas]

It's also not bad on the Earth Kings. They can cast invulnerability for prot, and summon earthpower if you're getting skelli-spammed. At the same time, they don't really need the soul vortex unless you want them spamming high level earth evocs (which they do well). If they're just stomping on things, going with hydra armor or stymph wings is pretty effective instead. Earthpower, invul, attack rear with dusk dagger/brand, shield of gleaming gold/charcoal shield/lead shield, starshine skullcap/wraith crown/horror helm, stymph wings/hydra armor, MR ammy, ring of regen.

Lead shield, starshine skullcap if you're worried about enemy mages (which you probably are), or one of the fire/earth shields and a brand if you're really worried about chaff...but with trample and blade wind I wouldn't be. Dusk dagger could be decent against SCs - is there a better weapon for that slot? (It's my go-to anti-SC weapon at the momnet, dual-wielded on quickened folks if possible). Horror helm is nice and cheap, plus i think stacks with stymph fear. Wraith crown is, well, a wraith crown and as amazing as 40 death gems should be. My SCs tend to get them later in the game or if I have found a const. site.

[Burnsaber]

Dusk dagger could be decent against SCs - is there a better weapon for that slot?


If your chassis has very high strenght, Sword of Swiftness might be better than Dusk dagger (Earth kings don't have too high attack skill, so are vulnerable to anti-sc's with high def that are immune to the elemental damage from the brands).

[chrispedersen]

Blood daggers.

[SlipperyJim]

Dusk dagger could be decent against SCs - is there a better weapon for that slot?
Flesh Eater might be fun. Cheap weapon, high damage, auto-berserk, and (most importantly) gives the enemy SC a sucking chest wound. :)

[Executor]

Axe of hate is useful sometimes too, it has fatigue damage.

[Illuminated One]

Gate Cleavers are AN, too, iirc and very high damage.

[Executor]

For raiding brends are best, fire to be exact since shadow or frost won't work on undead, and is AP also.
As for SC's, what item you'll use depends on what SC you're facing.
Gloves of the gladiator are nasty especially in CBM, and combined with jade armor/boots and a stone bird.
However, Golems are generally best anti SC units IMO.

[MaxWilson]

Something tough and lifeless, like a Poison Golem or Gargoyle.

I confess, I have used Bone Armor on a GoR'ed Gargoyle with a Stone Sword. That was mostly for fun, though.

-Max

[chrispedersen]

For raiding brends are best, fire to be exact since shadow or frost won't work on undead, and is AP also.
As for SC's, what item you'll use depends on what SC you're facing.
Gloves of the gladiator are nasty especially in CBM, and combined with jade armor/boots and a stone bird.
However, Golems are generally best anti SC units IMO.

axes of hate are pretty useful for antiSC use as well.

[Viajero]

Im relatively new to this so forgive me if im wrong. Re Tartarians, many people around seem to suggest this SC as if it was a clear option. But as far as I know after playing Ermor as my first nation so far, Tartarians come random so you can perhaps have a cyclops with no magic (as it has happened to me) and feebleminded at that, or maybe you have another type coming, etc.

Is there a way to actually be able to select the Tartarian you want?

[Executor]

There is no way to select a tartarian you want, 1/5 of them come as commanders, others as normal units, most of them are feebleminded and have various afflictions, so you need either the chalice or GoH up to heal them so they can be used for fighting, and you need to GoR those that are units and not commanders.
3E2A are the best for fighting, Tartarian Titans are best with magic skills, they have 2 2 3 random paths, and Tartarian Monsters are the worst.

Pretty much every game is tartarian oriented so It would be interesting to see a game without tartarians, or clams as to see some new ideas for late stage games.

[thejeff]

But they're cheap, only 10 gems once you've geared up to cast it, so you can get a lot of them and then pick which ones you want to GoR.

And you'll occasionally get non-feebleminded ones, even as commanders.

[P3D]

Pretty much every game is tartarian oriented so It would be interesting to see a game without tartarians, or clams as to see some new ideas for late stage games.

Actually there's one going on (Bloodless).

[Executor]

Interesting, although I'd leave blood summons since their numbers are limited.

Something I'd like to try, maybe I'll start a game like this soon when I have more time,
A 4 team game with no Tartarians, gem generators of any kind, AC, AN, Burden of Time, Utherdark. More ordinary and conventional warfare.
Let's see Bane lords, Spectres or Firbolgs put to a bigger use and not just a rush for the chalice and than Tartarinas like in 90% of the games.

[chrispedersen]

There is no way to select a tartarian you want, 1/5 of them come as commanders, others as normal units, most of them are feebleminded and have various afflictions, so you need either the chalice or GoH up to heal them so they can be used for fighting, and you need to GoR those that are units and not commanders.
3E2A are the best for fighting, Tartarian Titans are best with magic skills, they have 2 2 3 random paths, and Tartarian Monsters are the worst.

Pretty much every game is tartarian oriented so It would be interesting to see a game without tartarians, or clams as to see some new ideas for late stage games.

2-2-3 doesn't really describe it right, as they can end up with like A7, right?

[thejeff]

2-2-3 is correct, though possibly misleading.
2 of any path, another 2 of any path, and another 3 of any path.
There's just nothing preventing each of the 3 sets from being the same path.

I'm not sure how else you'd describe it.

[Wrana]

Interesting, although I'd leave blood summons since their numbers are limited.

Something I'd like to try, maybe I'll start a game like this soon when I have more time,
A 4 team game with no Tartarians, gem generators of any kind, AC, AN, Burden of Time, Utherdark. More ordinary and conventional warfare.
Let's see Bane lords, Spectres or Firbolgs put to a bigger use and not just a rush for the chalice and than Tartarinas like in 90% of the games.
Interesting idea. Though I think gem generators aren't THAT fearsome. And why without armor-defeating weapons (if I read you right)?

[thejeff]

AC and AN are Astral Corruption and Arcane Nexus, if I read it correctly.

Gem generators (or more accurately Clams) lead to Wishes, which are the other path to tons of uber SCs.
If just you removed Tartarians, everyone who could would just try hard for giant clam factories and wish for Seraphs or whatever they wanted.

[Dragar]

Getting rid of tarts and clams is great.. I'm playing in the aforementioned Bloodless game and it is really interesting planning long term with those things taken away.. you really have to think about more innovative late game tactics, and there isn't a mad research rush for artifacts - take away need for chalice for tarts or Sceptre of Dark regency to boost death hugely and the major impetus is gone. Sure there are useful things, but they aren't generally game breakers

Hopefully I survive to the end game, should be fascinating

[Executor]

Gen generator are bigger game winners than Tartarians.
I just finished a game where I had 400 clams and blood stones, which led to me wishing for gems 6 times a turn, which is about 800 free gems.
That was 3 times more than what the score graphs showed.
Those 6 wishes enabled me 150 free death gems which I used to summon about 10 tartarians a turn.
Gem generators are VERY fearsome!!!

Not having clams means wishing is gonna be a lot harder, there most likely won't be any gem wishes, since you'll be saving those precious astral gems for a Seraph or Chayot or ??? something.

And as Dragar pointed out it takes away the rush for sceptre and chalice mostly, as there isn't so much a need for them than.

[DonCorazon]

I agree 100% with Executor. I have the misfortune to currently be stuck in 3 (well now 2) endgames. Its sad how similar they are - clamming, blood stones, etc with all the micro that entails. I spend more time rounding up gems than I do planning battles...uggh...its just not fun.

I will only join games without gem generators going forward. I don't mind Tarts as much, since they do help nations without decent national summons and open up some fun magic path combos that allow for creative scripting. They certainly don't make anyone invincible - i just lost 2 to the AIs 800HP Kraken in one game. :( But they do give a pretty big edge to whoever gets the Chalice.

That said, the more I play, the more I realize that just finding certain sites early on can pretty much determine who wins amongst competitive players. I am starting to wonder whether no independent mages or OP sites like Steel Ovens should also be a part of a balanced game, though that would take away a lot of the fun of site searching.

[chrispedersen]

Can't you set the map so no rare sites are used?

[Dragar]

The only problem with killing gem generators is the earth boost of bloodstones is worth keeping. Other than that I'm all for wiping out gem generators in all games I play - they are too powerful in the end game so most successful players will use it, and everyone will spend hours and hours of boring micro. Doing so would reduce mass tart creation anyway, so there wouldn't be so much of a need to ban them too. We'll end up with a lot more variety in the end game

[Aethyr]

Dragar, I agree with your previous post; getting rid of both gem generators & tarts would make for better and more interesting end-games.

[Omnirizon]

Tomb Oracle

(for Raiding/PD killing)
Fire-Brand/Charcoal Shield and
Frost-Brand/Demon Whip
Dragon Helm
Copper Plate
Boots of Flying
Luck Pendant
Amulet of Antimagic
script Diving Blessing (E9N4, hopefully), Summon Earthpower, Invulnerability, attack
100% all resistances, no equipment over Const4 (so you can get these guys out quick and then focus on other schools of magic), uses a spread of gems so no bottlenecks (and especially trying to use the generally useless fire gems)

or (for SC killing)
replace Boots of Flying with Boots of Quickness
replace Amulet of Antimagic with Fire Pearl
replace weapons with something appropriate, like Flambeau for undead, ect.

[Wrana]

I agree 100% with Executor. I have the misfortune to currently be stuck in 3 (well now 2) endgames. Its sad how similar they are - clamming, blood stones, etc with all the micro that entails. I spend more time rounding up gems than I do planning battles...uggh...its just not fun.

I will only join games without gem generators going forward. I don't mind Tarts as much, since they do help nations without decent national summons and open up some fun magic path combos that allow for creative scripting. They certainly don't make anyone invincible - i just lost 2 to the AIs 800HP Kraken in one game. :( But they do give a pretty big edge to whoever gets the Chalice.

That said, the more I play, the more I realize that just finding certain sites early on can pretty much determine who wins amongst competitive players. I am starting to wonder whether no independent mages or OP sites like Steel Ovens should also be a part of a balanced game, though that would take away a lot of the fun of site searching.

I see. Nevertheless, Tartarians as SCs for everyone (and they ARE better than most) look quite boring to me. Micromanagement can be reduced with just the "pool" command. And this allows an access to Astral for nations which don't have it. And, as was said, Bloodstone is one of only 2 Earth boosters if we discount RoW, Elemental Staff and artifacts - which are all not everyday items. And - it's a way for MA Oceania to really do something. Actually, I think that unless you have a strong Astral nation already (and so can Wish for gems), you just never have enough gems without these items... :(

[BesucherXia]

I agree 100% with Executor. I have the misfortune to currently be stuck in 3 (well now 2) endgames. Its sad how similar they are - clamming, blood stones, etc with all the micro that entails. I spend more time rounding up gems than I do planning battles...uggh...its just not fun.

I will only join games without gem generators going forward. I don't mind Tarts as much, since they do help nations without decent national summons and open up some fun magic path combos that allow for creative scripting. They certainly don't make anyone invincible - i just lost 2 to the AIs 800HP Kraken in one game. :( But they do give a pretty big edge to whoever gets the Chalice.

That said, the more I play, the more I realize that just finding certain sites early on can pretty much determine who wins amongst competitive players. I am starting to wonder whether no independent mages or OP sites like Steel Ovens should also be a part of a balanced game, though that would take away a lot of the fun of site searching.

I see. Nevertheless, Tartarians as SCs for everyone (and they ARE better than most) look quite boring to me. Micromanagement can be reduced with just the "pool" command. And this allows an access to Astral for nations which don't have it. And, as was said, Bloodstone is one of only 2 Earth boosters if we discount RoW, Elemental Staff and artifacts - which are all not everyday items. And - it's a way for MA Oceania to really do something. Actually, I think that unless you have a strong Astral nation already (and so can Wish for gems), you just never have enough gems without these items... :(

Pool command is far from ideal. It will remove those intended gems at the same time. And pearls are very usually equipped to cast Returning.

I once thought about a solution regarding micromanagement: let any gems generated by commander himself be immoverable. Maybe we can even make all equipped gems fixed, like those carried by mercenary. Blood slaves should always be sent to treasury directly, and you should be able to give commanders gems without a local lab.

But I suspect that can not be done without rewriting the whole game.

[vfb]

That's an excellent idea for the gem generators! Then they could no longer feed into the production of the same item, or into wishes. (Maybe wishing for gems needs a nerf too, possibly crank up the cost of Wish so it's no longer economical to wish for gems.)

But if you don't allow unloading for all gems, regardless of the source, then the user can't easily undo a click error where he puts gems on the wrong guy, and you can't load gems onto scouts or different-path commanders to supply armies in the field. So I think you're right that it would be a significant change in the implementation.

[Calahan]

Ah yes the Pool buttons.

Seven of them mean "please put all the gems of that type in the lab"
One of them means "please kill all my 'Returning/Vortex' scripted guys"

[Executor]

I wish there was a ctrl+z command as for blood slaves to transfer gems and if you could redo the damage you've potentially done by achemising the wrong gems without redoing the whole turn.

[BesucherXia]

That's an excellent idea for the gem generators! Then they could no longer feed into the production of the same item, or into wishes. (Maybe wishing for gems needs a nerf too, possibly crank up the cost of Wish so it's no longer economical to wish for gems.)

But if you don't allow unloading for all gems, regardless of the source, then the user can't easily undo a click error where he puts gems on the wrong guy, and you can't load gems onto scouts or different-path commanders to supply armies in the field. So I think you're right that it would be a significant change in the implementation.

I think if we can supply commanders gems without local labs, then there is also less chance of giving gems on the wrong guys. Maybe we can even make giving gems work like purchasing PD: you can discard the gems you have newly given to commanders, but after that turn, it will be permantly fixed.

Hmm... too good dream to be real.

[Wrana]

Pool command is far from ideal. It will remove those intended gems at the same time. And pearls are very usually equipped to cast Returning.

I once thought about a solution regarding micromanagement: let any gems generated by commander himself be immoverable. Maybe we can even make all equipped gems fixed, like those carried by mercenary. Blood slaves should always be sent to treasury directly, and you should be able to give commanders gems without a local lab.

But I suspect that can not be done without rewriting the whole game.
But! The gems for Returning are most commonly on the commanders which are deep into enemy territory. Therefore, they won't be pooled for the simple reason that these commanders aren't in labs!
And this solution is worse than useless. You equip the commander with gems he didn't generate when he needs to cast the specific spell. You equip commander with Clam/Fetish to generate gems for other commanders. Your idea will remove gems from the former, but not from latter. Making it other way around would be better, but also not ideal, as you could add or remove gem-producing item (with or without changing commander's purpose).
A possible solution could be to allow to mark commanders somehow so their gems won't be pooled - but THIS would require rewriting main files...

[Wrana]

I think if we can supply commanders gems without local labs, then there is also less chance of giving gems on the wrong guys. Maybe we can even make giving gems work like purchasing PD: you can discard the gems you have newly given to commanders, but after that turn, it will be permantly fixed.

Hmm... too good dream to be real.
Not so much good as different from the authors' intent, I think. And this particular implememntation will require some reworking of base files without fixing the problem you had pointed on earlier...
You should also remember that there are MUCH more commanders than provinces, so it can be more resource-consuming to implement similar procedure here...

[BesucherXia]

But! The gems for Returning are most commonly on the commanders which are deep into enemy territory.

I dont think so. In late game you may have groups of commanders horror marked thanks to the item effect, you suspect your opponent may launch a full scaled assassin spell campaign. And believe me you will fear AC show up at any time. Will you just use Returning to run from the battlefield in enemy territory?


You equip commander with Clam/Fetish to generate gems for other commanders. Your idea will remove gems from the former, but not from latter.

I have really missed the point that we can still pass items to storage more gems. That trick would be quite popular for Returning. Thanks for the remind.


A possible solution could be to allow to mark commanders somehow so their gems won't be pooled - but THIS would require rewriting main files...

That change would be absolutly welcomed.
We all know there is so many micromanagement issues here and there, and our beloved game is hitting its limits. After all, we are all just once awhile dreaming about a new world. Hmmm.. its time now to stop hijacking the topic.

[Bwaha]

A Medusa is my first choice.

Seraphs are a close second.

[Viajero]

Rudra:
Skull Staff, Brand, Shield of Gleaming Gold
Horned Helm
Hydra Skin Armor
Boots of the Messenger
Amulet of MR

Script Blessing (you'll want at least minor earth/nature), Soul Vortex, Phoenix Pyre, hold x2, attack rear. Add Mistform or Mirror Image as necessary, and you have a whole host of other buffs available if the situation calls for one. Best deployed with one Rudra holding a Staff of Storms and S3 mages to cast Luck and Body Ethereal and a H3 divne blesser, but you can get away with less.

Alternately:
Brand, Flambeau/Gate Cleaver, Vine Shield
Skullface
Chain Mail of Displacement
Boots of the Messenger
Amulet of MR

Same script. If you deploy as purely anti-thug or anti-SC, the death booster is unnecessary since you need first strike and you'd be better served with a horned helm.


Of course these builds aren't perfect, either would be great with Rainbow Armor to defend vs Mind Hunt and the like. You'll definitely need a N minor bless in that case, and W wouldn't hurt either.

How do you summon one of these rudras? what spell?

[Psycho]

They are a national spell for kailasa/bandar/patala. Or you can wish for them (but not really worth it IMO).

[Viajero]

Thanks. Is there any post where we have listed all these main SC and how to summon them?

[Seve82]

It's also high encumbrance IIRC and low Prot. Soul Vortex is nice and all, but it's mainly an anti-chaff spell and really, there are other ways to get regen and 0 net encumbrance that don't have such a high opportunity cost. Plus, relying only on Soul Vortex is an invitation to get skelly-spammed to death.

I guess the question I should be asking is: what commanders/equipment setups do you think would benefit from Bone Armor? I could maybe see it on a Tartarian or a Cyclops because they tend to have Earth magic for Prot, don't need Ethereal, and doubled HP on a Cyclops (let alone a Tartarian) is enough to survive Gifts From the Heavens!

-Max

Bone armor gives 100% extra hp? Never tried that armor cuz soulvort alone with high prize is crappy armor.

[rdonj]

It's also high encumbrance IIRC and low Prot. Soul Vortex is nice and all, but it's mainly an anti-chaff spell and really, there are other ways to get regen and 0 net encumbrance that don't have such a high opportunity cost. Plus, relying only on Soul Vortex is an invitation to get skelly-spammed to death.

I guess the question I should be asking is: what commanders/equipment setups do you think would benefit from Bone Armor? I could maybe see it on a Tartarian or a Cyclops because they tend to have Earth magic for Prot, don't need Ethereal, and doubled HP on a Cyclops (let alone a Tartarian) is enough to survive Gifts From the Heavens!

-Max

Bone armor gives 100% extra hp? Never tried that armor cuz soulvort alone with high prize is crappy armor.

Ice Devils. They have high natural protection, low encumbrance and pretty high health. Should be a perfect candidate for bone armor. And if you give them just about any reinvigoration item, skelly spam shouldn't kill them.

Soul vortex will allow a commander to drain more than his max life, is how it is doubling the hp.

[chrispedersen]

Troll bodyguards.

[Maerlande]

Damn, neat trick Chris

I've got a game where that will be perfect.

[Lingchih]

Actually , Ice Devils suck. They are the worst of the blood summons, and still cost a lot (88 slaves). they are rarely even worth the trouble.

[vfb]

It's a matter of opinion. I really like them. They are only 88 slaves, they can quicken themselves, and they have great stats. And you only need level 6 in research to summon them. Now that you're not making clams any more, spend 5W gems on Wolven Winter, targeting the province you're moving into, and put that Cold Power to work.

[FAJ]

What is the best build for an Ice devil? I tend to summon them when I get impatient for the Devils/Heliophagii, but I have never been impressed with them. Are they a worthwhile thug/SC for underwater applications?

[Sombre]

Do they also get increased prot in the cold ala niefs? If not, they should.

[vfb]

@Sombre: On the unit stats, it looks like Cold Power just gives + to Str, Att, Def, AP in Cold provinces. But Prot is unexpectedly higher (like Base=15, Cold3 prov, Prot=21), so I think it gets a bonus too. Cold Power 2 (Nycafor, Oriax) gives +6 Str, Att, Def, AP in Cold3. All the Ice Devils look like they get +6 Prot in Cold3, even if they only have Cold Power 1.

@FAJ: It depends on which one you get, and who you're fighting.

I just pulled up a couple of games, and I've got a bunch of Ice Devils with 3 or 4 stars (sadly they can't get heroic abilities):

MA Mict game:
Bifrons (S2W3): Fire Brand, Vine Shield, Starshine Cap, Hydra Armor, Ring of Fire, Ammy of Resilience

Cimejes (W3): Fire Brand, Vine Shield, Horror Helm. Hydra Armor, Winged Shoes, Luck Pendant, Ammy of Resilience

Marverni game:
Gaap (W2, berserks): Frost Brand, Lucky Coin, Spirit Helm, Hydra Armor, Winged Shoes, Ring of Tamed Lightning, Antimagic Ammy

MA Aby game:
Nycafor (W3, Icicle Fists): Horror Helm, Rainbow Armor, Messenger Boots, Regen Ring, Antimagic Ammy

[Gregstrom]

Hint for Ice Devils: Don't use items that grant Stoneskin without thinking very carefully about the potential drawbacks.

[Sombre]

Yeah there's an #iceprot value which niefs use - adds prot directly based on cold scale. I just wondered if ice demons have it - clearly they do.

[vfb]

Thanks! I did not know about that. But looking on the wiki, there it is! Nycafor has +4, the rest have +3 (like a Niefel Jarl).

[thejeff]

I still think the Ice Devils should have Chill up in the Neifel range. It's always seemed strange to me that the the giants should be so much colder than much more powerful supernatural cold beings.

[FAJ]

Hint for Ice Devils: Don't use items that grant Stoneskin without thinking very carefully about the potential drawbacks.

What are the potential drawbacks?

Would using invunerability on them have the same sort of drawbacks?

In one game I am playing, I lucked into a robe of invunerability, so I just threw it on an ice devil. Would it be better placed on another blood summon SC/thug?

[chrispedersen]

he's referring to the side effect of stoneskin - knocking down the cold invuln. And with a chill effect you'd be nuking yourseflf.

Now.. if they only had maintenance...

[rdonj]

Hint for Ice Devils: Don't use items that grant Stoneskin without thinking very carefully about the potential drawbacks.

What are the potential drawbacks?

Would using invunerability on them have the same sort of drawbacks?

In one game I am playing, I lucked into a robe of invunerability, so I just threw it on an ice devil. Would it be better placed on another blood summon SC/thug?

It would be better on an arch devil or heliophagus, if your ice devils are fighting in cold. If they're not then it is at least reasonable.

The ice devil with the hell sword and the one with the frost brand can probably be left with their base weapon.

[Duncan_Frost]

Any of the four-armed guys like Rudras.
Throw on both the Axes of Rulership and the Harvest Blade.
Laugh as you turn enemy SC's into limbless torsos. ;)

[Question]

I tried making a niefel jarl SC early game, frost brand, vine shield, horned helmet, ethereal robe, boots of the messenger, lucky pendant, ring of regeneration.

It was pretty much impossible for the AI to kill early game, but against any decent sized army, the jarl just ran away after the first few rounds even though he was at full or almost full hp. Why? No undead/fear on the field.

Scripted him to cast quicken and mirror image too.

[Knai]

It was pretty much impossible for the AI to kill early game, but against any decent sized army, the jarl just ran away after the first few rounds even though he was at full or almost full hp. Why? No undead/fear on the field.

Scripted him to cast quicken and mirror image too.

Did you send him out with troop support? That can lead to SC retreats. However, berserk is an easy way around that.

[Question]

No, i sent him out alone. I thought SC were supposed to take on entire armies alone?

[Knai]

No, i sent him out alone. I thought SC were supposed to take on entire armies alone?

More or less. Sometimes you send a handful of them, but at that point some of them are probably there to deal with enemy SCs. Berserk is still an easy way around retreating.

[Fantomen]

My new favorite is this:

GoR:ed or possessed seige golem with stymphalian wings.
Flying, trampling, mindless (can't be mind hunted etc), fear, all resistances to boot (this is a big big deal) , 0 enc, 24 base protection (much more with the armor), turn 1 attacker (hard to counter with any mage or teleporting thug that needs a turn or more to buff)

Rest of the slots (head, feet, 2 misc) are optional depending on situation, but I generally put something that grants an extra attack (stone bird, serpent etc) to counter other large thugs. But it doesn't rally need anything but the wings to kick ***. The relative effectiveness to cost decreases with more equipment, better to field more of them instead.

The beauty is in the cheapness, as ma or la Ulm you can easily field dozens, and they can take any pd or small army.

Plus they can fly ahead of an army to break the walls of a castle. Perfect to combine with almost any battlefield effect as they are immune to most, fatigue spells, acid, all elemental damage, destruction, iron bane etc.

Then we have possessed storm demons for LA ulm, now those kick serious ***.

[Soyweiser]

Of course, shatter and opposition are a nice counter for this tactic. e3 and s3. But they have low range. Your golem has only 12 mr. But it is a nice tactic. If you do not have earth or astral, it is going to be hard to beat.

Actually, because you only need to go up the constr research tree, it is a superb tactic.

[Question]

But why are they retreating? They are not taking much damage, and am regenerating it anyway.

[Soyweiser]

Each turn a squad under 5 men takes damage it must make a morale check. It is in the manual. Read it.

[Corinthian]

Do niefel jarls have high morale? Because single units get to take morale checks every turn. Though I have never heard of a niefel jarl retreating like that before. Maybe the enemy have the dark skies global?

[Question]

Well the only way for a niefel jarl to get berserk by himself is to wear the fenris/berserker pelt i think...

[Soyweiser]

Or get a n9+ bless.

[sansanjuan]

But why are they retreating? They are not taking much damage, and am regenerating it anyway.

Run Dom with the -ddd switch. Should have the story after sifting through the log.
-ssj

[Starbelly Geek]

Or get a n9+ bless.

Or any of several spells, particularly in the Thaumaturgy line.


Your Jarl will also retreat if there's enough hit points of other units on his side in the battle, including province defense, who are all killed.

[Knai]

Of course, shatter and opposition are a nice counter for this tactic. e3 and s3. But they have low range. Your golem has only 12 mr. But it is a nice tactic. If you do not have earth or astral, it is going to be hard to beat.

Actually, because you only need to go up the constr research tree, it is a superb tactic.

The other obvious option is a fatigue kill. A bunch of Stellar Cascades could probably do a lot, if the mages involved decided to cooperate, and the same can be simulated with the lightning spells. Then there is Charm, though I don't recall the Charm-Mindless interaction off the fop of my head. Still, even with that up these things are comparatively cheap, and really quite nasty.

[rdonj]

Siege Golems are actually immune to all elements and poison, so the lightning isn't a problem for them. They're reasonably resistant to fatigue spells as well with that much protection, but of course it could still eventually drop them and stellar cascades spam will kill just about anything in sufficient volume. I would actually be more afraid of something stupid like Swarm though.

[Knai]

Siege Golems are actually immune to all elements and poison, so the lightning isn't a problem for them. They're reasonably resistant to fatigue spells as well with that much protection, but of course it could still eventually drop them and stellar cascades spam will kill just about anything in sufficient volume. I would actually be more afraid of something stupid like Swarm though.

Right. Duh. I knew about the immunities too, and somehow just spaced it. As for Swarm, I really wouldn't be surprised if that worked decently. Then there are the various immobilization spells, and of course, the banishment spells. Alternately, just hit them with Gifts from Heaven a few time, as 150 damage hits are the sort of thing that renders protection largely irrelevant.

[Finalgenesis]

disintegrate is one of those spells AI actually will cast on its own vs high size/hp units, so the standard hold x5 in the back method to defeat short ranged scripted counters won't save said low MR construct SCs.

You'll need the research and preferably plentiful national D access of course.

[NTJedi]

List your Super Combatant and build:



Sounds like we need another forum arena death match... where different members of the community each submit one SC to fight in one massive Arena Death match.
Good Times