Does starting or current Max dominion determine temple checks?

[Dragar]

I've looked at the various threads but can't seem to find a definite answer to whether boosting your maximum dominion through temples has any impact on the Dom score used for determining temple checks.

The guide implies that it does, various posts have said that it doesn't, and I'd really like to know for sure

thanks in advance for any help

Edit: Sorry, for some reason popped up as a guide - this forum drives me nuts sometimes

[vfb]

Temple checks from temples are based on starting dominion. Temple checks based on the presence of your god and prophet are based on current dominion (start plus (temples/5).

I'm pretty sure the temple checks from your home province and from blood sacrifices are also based on starting dominion.

I think VP temple checks are always based on a dominion of 5.

I've got no idea about the Ark or Juggernauts.

[Sombre]

Is that first bit really true vfb? I thought all domspread used the starting dom (despite what the manual says).

[vfb]

It's the straight dope from KO, only I can't find the link to his post from last year or whenever it was that he posted it. I'll try again.

[MaxWilson]

vfb, look in the dom2 forums. I think KO originally posted that information for Dom2 (prophet uses a different check than temples), and we've simply observationally confirmed it in dom3.

Can we get some lch magic here to confirm things once and for all? :)

-Max

[Baalz]

If such magic does materialize I'm also particularly interested in the juggernaut, I'm guessing he works just like the prophet but you never know...

[Sombre]

It's been implied a few places that domspread (the jugg has #domspread 1) is the same thing that the prophet has. But never confirmed.

[Micah]

KO has been demonstrably wrong on a number of game mechanic issues in the past, I wouldn't take his posts as infallible, unless we're talking intent, and then he's the boss. =)

[vfb]

Not only that, I finally found the thread, and like Max said it was posted in the Dom2 forums.

Actual testing sounds difficult. Maybe start two nations on an empty massively huge map, one with dom2, one with dom1. Dom1 nation builds 5 temples. Then prophets or pretenders for the two nations teleport to adjacent provinces in the middle of the map where temple dominion spread has not reached yet?

Or just ask lch. :)

[Micah]

Just make a custom map with 2 provs that only neighbor each other, should cut out any interference from elsewhere on the map. Probably also better to test with Dom 5 + 25 temples and Dom 10, that way you should be immune to the awesome DRN generator since you should always get a candle from a temple check.

[vfb]

Great plan with the 2 province ... island? Alternate plane of reality?

I didn't want to make 25 temples because I thought I'd get temple dom spread halfway across the map, but with 2 isolated provinces, it shouldn't be an issue.

I was worried that when using dom1 and dom2, that dom1 might get lucky and put candle up in the dom2 province, and the RNG would fail to blow it out, leading to massive dom spread by the dom1 nation. dom10 and dom5+5 is a much better bet.

[MaxWilson]

The Dom 5 + 25 temples sounds like a good plan. Calmon did something similar and posted it in the bug thread, quoted by UncleYee here:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=505528&highlight=calmon#post505528

-Max

[vfb]

I created two nations and teleported the prophets to an unconnected island of 4 provinces. The prophets did not preach.

Prophet test:

Candles in 4-province island, results at turn:
Turn Dom10@start Dom5,25 temples
==== =========== ===============
3 1 1
4 2 2
5 2 2
6 2 2
7 3 3
8 2 2
9 2 2
10 2 2
...
20 4 3
...
30 7 6
...
40 8 6


But, at 40 turns, 4 temples had been lost to random events, so it was actually dom5, 21 temples. It's not a 2-to-1 advantage in any case.


I then tested teleporting the Gods into the island instead of the prophets:

God test:

Candles in 4-province island, results at turn:
Turn Dom10@start Dom5,25 temples
==== =========== ===============
13 1 1
14 4 2 (oops, 24 temples)
15 4 2 (back to 25 temples)
16 5 3
17 7 5
18 7 5
19 8 6
20 9 7
...
30 11 8
...
40 11 8
...
50 10 8
...
60 11 9


Start without the 25 temples:
Turn Dom10@start Dom5,1 temples
==== =========== ===============
9 2 1
10 3 1
11 4 0
12 5 0
13 7 0
14 9 1
15 10 0
16 12 0
17 13 0
...
20 18 0
...
30 36 0


Anyway, that's good enough evidence for me I think.

(I started Arco with a dom-5 god and Ermor dom-10, indies at 0, uncommon events, on the attached map.)

[vfb]

More testing ... dom spread for juggernauts is based on starting dominion.

I created a map with 2 2-province islands, so there would be no competing dom spread, and into one island sent a prophet from the dom5 nation, into the other island send a juggernaut from the dom5 nation.

At turn 20:

Prophet island: 18 candles
Juggernaut island: 7 candles.

With the starting-dom10 nation:

Prophet island: 18 candles
Juggernaut island: 18 candles.

[vfb]

I tried testing Victory points but it's harder to tell what's going on with the RNG. Probably need bigger islands to test on, especially for testing VP dom spread for a dom-1 nation. It doesn't look to me like temple count makes a difference to dom spread from VPs. I ran a few repeat tests.

Dom-10 nation with spread from a victory point only
Turn Candles (2-prov island)
10 5 5
20 10 11
30 17 17


Dom-5 nation with 25 temples (none on island) spread from a victory point only
Turn Candles (2-prov island)
10 4 1 6 5 2
20 9 4 12 12 5
30 13 10 16 18 8


Dom-5 nation with 1 temples (none on island) spread from a victory point only
Turn Candles (2-prov island)
10 4 4 2
20 6 10 5
30 9 (max) 10


One item of note is that VPs and Juggernauts do spread dominion for EA Mictlan.

[Dragar]

Thanks heaps for that testing vfb, good to have it clear finally :)

[MaxWilson]

Anyway, that's good enough evidence for me I think.

(I started Arco with a dom-5 god and Ermor dom-10, indies at 0, uncommon events, on the attached map.)

So combining your results with Calmon's, I think that's conclusive and KO is right: temple checks from temples are based on start dominion, temple checks from god and prophet are based on current dominion. (And temple checks from juggernauts are also based on start dominion.)

-Max

[Micah]

The really important question still remains though: how about blood saccing? That's probably the easiest way to spread dominion in a hurry, juggs being a weak second for those that can do either. (Because really, the extra candle and a half you're getting from prophet/god isn't mattering much when you have 25 temples, though it's a great trivia question.) Any chance you can fire up your map when you get another chance and check that out VFB?

And thanks for testing!

[chrispedersen]

It might also be interesting to test LA-R Prophets.

[vfb]

Oh no. :o

Here's what I did to test, first with a Dom-10 god:

Turn 1: Teleported (gate stone) a priest (not a prophet) to the 2-province "island"

dom in island (after running turn): 0

Turn 2: Build a temple in province, teleport 8 slaves to the province

dom in island: 0

Turn 3: Sacrifice 1 slave

dom in island: 2! Gah. That's impossible, supposedly.

Turn 4: Sacrifice 1 slave

dom in island: 4 (+2 again!) But this time I saved the turn before running it, so I've got evidence. :)

Turn 5: Sacrifice 1 slave (H1 priest this time, before it was an H4)

dom in island: 6.

Well, that's just goofy. Every turn I've sacrificed, I'm getting +2 candles in the island. EA Mictlan temples are not supposed to spread dominion, right? I will take a turn off sacrificing and see if I get dom spread. I'm running CBM1.5, but that shouldn't make a difference.

Turn 6: No sacrifice.

And ... 6 candles. No change.

Turn 7: No sacrifice.

And ... 6 candles. No change. I'll go back to sacrificing, 1 virgin:

Turn 8: 1 sacrifice.

And ... 8 candles. Well, that's enough of that. I'll sacrifice 4 slaves at the temple with an H4 priest.

Turn 9: 4 sacrifices.

And ... 17 candles. +8. Plus I got a "festival" event for +1. Stupid events!

I'll test with a starting dom of 9 and no extra temples next, then 5 and no temples. then 5 and 25 temples.

[vfb]

Testing with dom 9, sacrificing 1 slave, dominion candle count in island:

Turn 3 hosted: 2
Turn 4 hosted: 4
Turn 5 hosted: 6
Turn 6 hosted: 8
Turn 7 hosted: 9 (+1 only)
Turn 8 hosted: 11
Turn 9 hosted: 13
Turn 10 hosted: 15

Testing with dom 5, sacrificing 1 slave, dominion candle count in island:


Turn 3 hosted: 1
Turn 4 hosted: 3
Turn 5 hosted: 5 (4,1)
Turn 6 hosted: 7 (5,2)
Turn 7 hosted: 8 (5,3)
Turn 8 hosted: 10 (max)

I'll have to edit my map so I can test Mictlan sacrificing onto a 4-province island. The dominion fills up too fast to get even rough stats for a good test of dom10 versus dom5+25 temples.

In the meantime, any thoughts on the double temple check from sacrificing one slave with a base dominion of 10? I tested again in an ordinary SP game, no CB, no island isolation (just distance), and I see two temple checks per slave. Huh.

[Micah]

Hmm, I wonder if the double checks are mictlan specific or not...

[Dragar]

No wonder blood sacrifice is so effective! double the temple checks!!

[chrispedersen]

Vfb, I have always found that all the priest needs is *1* slave, regardless of H?.

Then so long as you give the blood sacrifice order, the appropriate numbmer of slaves decrement from treasury.

I'm gathering I'm wrong on that.

Is there anychance that blood sacrificing allows both the the temple check AND the sacrifice?

[vfb]

I'm beginning to doubt my sanity here. :)

I decided to test Sauromatia, and created a dormant dom-10 god. Since there was going to be extra spread from the temple anyway (can't sacrifice without one), I didn't bother with the "dominion island" map.

I did not create a prophet on the first turn (or any of the later turns). But when I hosted, I had 4 candles.

Turn 0: 1 candle (start)
Turn 1: 1 + (home province spread) + (temple spread) = 4?
Turn 2: 4 + 3 = 7

When I click on the temple icon I see:
God 0
Prophet 0
Home Provinces 10
Temples 10

I didn't even start sacrificing yet.

Turn 3: 7 + 3 = 10

Add in an H1 priest sacrificing:

Turn 4: 10 + 5 = 15
Turn 4: 15 + 5 = 20

From this I am guessing:
- Home provinces generate 2 temple checks, not 1.
- Every blood slave sacrificed generates 2 temple checks.

Trying with 2 temples and dom10:
Turn 1: 4
turn 2: 7
Turn 3: 11
Turn 4: 15
Turn 5: 19

And sacrifice for a couple turns at one temple:
Turn 6: 25 =19+2(temple)+2(1slave)+2(home prov)
Turn 7: 31

One slave sacrificed is 2 temple checks. (vanilla WNH warrior sorc sacrificing)
Home province generates 2 temple checks.
One temple generates one temple check (except EA & LA Mictlan).

[vfb]

Vfb, I have always found that all the priest needs is *1* slave, regardless of H?.

Then so long as you give the blood sacrifice order, the appropriate numbmer of slaves decrement from treasury.

I'm gathering I'm wrong on that.

Is there anychance that blood sacrificing allows both the the temple check AND the sacrifice?

You only get as many slave temple checks out of the sacrifice as double the number of slaves your sacrificer is sacrificing. So if you have an H4 with a jade knife and give them one slave, that's just two temple checks. Sure, they'll grab 6 slaves out of the dungeon for the next turn, and if you don't pull them off, you'll get 12 temple checks for that next sacrifice.

A blood sacrifice at a temple gives both a temple check for the temple and 2 temple checks for each slave sacrificed, unless you are EA or LA Mictlan, in which case you just get 2 temple checks for each slave sacrificed.

[vfb]

I tested Mictlan sacrificing for 20 turns with a dom-5 god, 25 temples, 1 slave per turn. Total dominion: 23.

I tested Mictlan sacrificing for 20 turns with a dom-10 god, 25 temples, 1 slave per turn. Total dominion: 41.

I tested Mictlan sacrificing for 20 turns with a dom-10 god, 1 temple, 1 slave per turn. Total dominion: 41.

Dom spread by blood sacrifice is by start dominion, not adjusted for number of temples.

[P3D]

It might be that Mictlan temples do not spread dominion normally, but they have dom spread when there's sacrifice there - or the first slave sacrificed each turn counts double. Need test with H3/H4.

[vfb]

I already tested with H4+jade knife=effective H6, as I wrote in my reply to Chris above. 6 slaves sacrificed with a dom10 god = +12 candles. I tested with Sauromatia and it was exactly like Mictlan as far as temple checks per sacrifice went.

EA/LA Mictlan temples do not spread dominion at all.

[Micah]

Ah, good call on the home province thing, in Arti I ended up with a mystery candle on turn 2, that explains it. Thanks again for the work VFB!

[Baalz]

Hah, awesome, I definitely echo the thanks. I knew blood sacrificing was effective (I've mentioned using it aggressively in a few of my guides), but now I know why. I suggested teleporting 4 Marverni druids in with jade knives to build a temple and sacrifice would have the effect of 20 temples, but it's actually 36! No wonder it's so effective! 36 temple checks in a tight group will wallop the hell out of a marginal enemy dominion...

[Calahan]

I also want to chip in with the thanks to vfb. I lot of questions answered here that's for sure.

I can't check, but I'm pretty certain the manual says that the capital gives 1 temple check. Which has now been confirmed by vfb's tests.

[thejeff]

So does this 2 temple checks for sacrificing thing count as a bug? Is the manual explicit about it?

[vfb]

I also want to chip in with the thanks to vfb. I lot of questions answered here that's for sure.

I can't check, but I'm pretty certain the manual says that the capital gives 1 temple check. Which has now been confirmed by vfb's tests.

That's what I called the "home province" in my tests above, which showed that it actually generates 2 temple checks (not 1 like the manual says).

I'm happy my testing was appreciated! :)

So does this 2 temple checks for sacrificing thing count as a bug? Is the manual explicit about it?

The manual is explicit about each blood slave sacrifice generating one temple check (my testing showed it generates 2 temple checks).

[Stavis_L]

That's what I called the "home province" in my tests above, which showed that it actually generates 2 temple checks (not 1 like the manual says).


Perhaps it's one check from being the home province/capital, and one from the temple there (unless you razed it first for the purposes of this test?)


I'm happy my testing was appreciated! :)


apprecation++

:)

[vfb]

That's what I called the "home province" in my tests above, which showed that it actually generates 2 temple checks (not 1 like the manual says).


Perhaps it's one check from being the home province/capital, and one from the temple there (unless you razed it first for the purposes of this test?)



It's two checks from the home province/capital, and one from the temple there. +3 white candles per month with no prophet or god present, for a dom-10 nation.