YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Isokron's Midgard wins!]

[ano]

Read the Llamaserver FAQ (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35160). It says:
Very weirdly, a problem's happened twice where a particular turn file arrives in a player's inbox corrupt. On requesting a resend, the turn arrives corrupt again. But the file's fine on the LlamaServer, and if I change the e-mail address to my own and get it to resend it works fine. Solution: ask the admin to get the file sent to him (by temporarily changing the nation's e-mail address) and have him forward the file to you. The next turn the problem should have gone. This is super super weird, but fortunately also super rare.
I think that is exactly the problem you have

[Strabo]

Uff... I set up my mail.ru account to resend mail to my gmail account, and now I have no problems :)
Thanks for help :rolleyes:

[rdonj]

Marignon seems to have staled last turn and is heading towards that path again this turn. I sent the player a pm an hour or so ago, but in the meantime, there's only 3 hours until the turn hosts. If marignon's turn isn't in in a few hours I will add 8 hours to the turn if there's no objection.

If it's not in after that, should I look for a sub? Or for someone to set marignon ai.

[rdonj]

Okay, marignon's turn is in. But I see pythium is also close to staling. I will go nudge pythium's player.

[WingedDog]

Thanks for the efforts, rdonj, you're doing good. :)

[TwoBits]

Is someone monitoring to see if any players are habitually staling? Is it perhaps time to move to a 36 or 48 hour schedule?

[Calahan]

Is someone monitoring to see if any players are habitually staling? Is it perhaps time to move to a 36 or 48 hour schedule?
I'm keeping an eye on the staling offenders, and giving rdonj a friendly shout when needed. We had a full round of turn files last time as well, so those players with the early stales are still with us, for now at least.

The status page says that we will be switching to 48 hours on turn 15/16. Which is a shedule I'm hoping will be adhered to, since the slower pace was one of the main reasons I signed up.

[WraithLord]

We shall move to 48h on turn 15 as stated in first post.

[Calahan]

Thanks for the confirmation on the 48 hour schedule WraithLord.

[rdonj]

I have been informed that one of the nations in this game has sent an NAP offer to another. This is strictly against the rules and tantamount to cheating in this sort of game. After conferring with wraithlord, it has been decided that the offending player will be removed from the game. I will set up a thread looking for a sub immediately and notify the player of their removal. Sorry about the holdup to the game. I will add 72 hours to the hosting time while I search for a new player. If none shows up that can be extended a day or two, or I will set the nation AI.

[WraithLord]

rdonj, thank you for putting so much attention to administrating this game.

The rules for this game are well clear. Any form of communication is off limit. Sending a NAP, with or w/o knowledge of the rules, defeats the very purpose of this game.
Please respect the house rules so that the game will continue to be enjoyable to all the players.

[Calahan]

Good to see no leniency on the rules, and I fully support the kicking out of any players who try to get around the very point of what a RAND game is all about.

[LumenPlacidum]

Was there a verdict on whether it's permissible for eliminated players to declare who they were?

[WraithLord]

Yes there was - permissible. It is and was the same for all previous RAND games.

[ano]

Sad that we can't know who that rules violator is. But we really can't because if this info is made public, a person who NAP suggestion was sent to will know who is who.
p.s. Do I understand it right that the game is paused until a sub is found? If this is occasionally resolved before Sat, are you going to set timer back?

[rdonj]

The game is paused for 3, maybe 4 days. Once everyone takes their turn after the sub is found the game will return to its original schedule. I don't plan on setting the timer back as the sub will not necessarily be able to finish the turn before then anyway, and inevitably someone will plan to use the extra time procrastinating and miss their turn if the postponement is cut.

[ano]

Ok, then it means we have a break. Not bad, really:)

[rdonj]

Okay, a sub has been found to take over the staling nation and should be submitting a turn sometime within the next two days.

[WingedDog]

Now, when the sub was finaly found, could you name us the violator?

[ano]

Hm, probably yes, if name of new player will remain unknown.

[rdonj]

It was Ossa.

[ano]

All turns are in but why did you turn quickhost off?

[rdonj]

Oops. Sorry, forgot to set it back on. Will go do that now.

[WraithLord]

We've hit turn 15. Hosting interval now set to 48h.

[Calahan]

If there are no objections, can I request that the turn reminder email be changed from 6 hours to 12 hours. Since they have little value at 6 hours if you get one at 1am :)

[ano]

Maybe 9? 12 seems too much for me because I'll simply forget about it.

[Isokron]

Maybe 9? 12 seems too much for me because I'll simply forget about it.

I don't quite understand this sentiment, why not just send in the turn as soon as possible instead of waiting for the last minute. Since its a rand game there is no diplomacy to wait on, and if everyone sends in their turns as soon as possible we might get a few more fast turns since i doubt that anyones empire is that super complex yet.

[Alpine Joe]

I agree with Isokron on the 12 hour warning. I don't like to get caught with no warning during the middle of the night.

[ano]

It depends on a player or, even, person style. If you have a lot of spare time and don't think on your turns a lot it doesn't mean that other people are in the same conditions. This game was declared as a "slow pace" and it is the main reason I signed up for it (and I nearly regret it because 3 games at once is definitely too much for me). Stupid mistakes everywhere an nothing as a result:)

[rdonj]

Well, it's set to 9 hours for the moment. I can't imagine this being controversial as compared to 6 hours, so hopefully it's not. Anyway, we'll see if this works out for now and if it needs changing in the future that's not a problem.

[ano]

First player is out, Abysia.
Who was he?

[rdonj]

Abysia was Dragar.

[Trumanator]

lol, even when its random he gets it.

[WraithLord]

LA Abysia is not that bad. It's MA Abysia that is the real bummer IMHO. I had the poor luck of getting it and then EA Agartha in my last two RAND games :(

[WraithLord]

This game was declared as a "slow pace" and it is the main reason I signed up for it (and I nearly regret it because 3 games at once is definitely too much for me). Stupid mistakes everywhere an nothing as a result:)

I totally agree. I was stupid/insane/masochist (pick one or more) enough to sign up for four games at the same time. One of which was team game qwerty in which I had to sub for my teammate as well.

Now that was crazy. I never ever gonna do something even remotely close. I think two games are ok if you have a family and job and a life for that matter :p
You can do three I guess if you have nothing but spare time on your plate.
Four puts you on the verge of insanity :D

[ano]

I am sorry but I have to quit, guys. I have extremely little time now and playing dominions is becoming more and more pain than a pleasure. Probably, I'll remain in one game that is in the late stage but this one is not the case.
I already found a good sub for my nation and informed rdonj about it. Danbo will be playing here instead of me.
So good luck everyone and sorry once again.
And I will NEVER play 3 games at once again!!

[rdonj]

As per Ano's request, I am adding a small postponement to the turn to help Danbo get settled in. He may not end up needing the time, but I prefer to err on the side of caution when setting up subs.

[danbo]

Greetings!
Now I want to confirm that I sub ano for this game. Also, I think I should supply my email to receive turns? I pmed Wraith Lord, as he was the topic starter. But now I'm reading the message, which points to administrative privileges of rdonj. So, will someone, please, tell me who is admin for this game? Anyway, I think I'll provide my email just right here to make things faster - daniel [at] bojenov [dot] ru
And thanks for delay, rdonj, but I had a lot of time to think over the strategy yesterday, so I'll do my best to send in my turn today.

[rdonj]

Greetings!
Now I want to confirm that I sub ano for this game. Also, I think I should supply my email to receive turns? I pmed Wraith Lord, as he was the topic starter. But now I'm reading the message, which points to administrative privileges of rdonj. So, will someone, please, tell me who is admin for this game? Anyway, I think I'll provide my email just right here to make things faster - daniel [at] bojenov [dot] ru
And thanks for delay, rdonj, but I had a lot of time to think over the strategy yesterday, so I'll do my best to send in my turn today.



You are correct, you needed to give your email to an admin. I dearly hope that you did NOT tell wraithlord which nation you are subbing for in your email, since he is playing in this game and should not know. Wraithlord can handle some requests, but if the admin needs to know what nation you are playing in order to handle something, you should send your PMs to me. Anyway, I have switched control over to your email and I will request a turn resend on your behalf. Hopefully you should have your turn by the time you read this message.

[WraithLord]

So who played Mari?

[rdonj]

Marignon was played by natpy.

[Executor]

The beauty of a no diplo game, waiting to see who it is that killed you...

[Calahan]

@ WraithLord - Can you please do a quick update of the first post to note Marignon's defeat. (played by Napty)

Thanks in Advance

[WraithLord]

sure thing.

Turn 22 and we're 2 man down. Who's next in line to be thrown off the boat???

Yeah, its one of the beauties of RAND games. Waiting to see who hides behind the mask.

[WraithLord]

BTW and OT re. this thread. Next game I plan to host will be a no diplo game but not anonymous with the all ages mod and CBM and no generators. The game theme would be that all nations are allowed. Each player brings the nation he thinks is best or that he can play best :).
So no nations would be banned from it and something like 18-22 players in all. You think Hinnom rules, you believe none plays it as good as you and that you are neigh invincible leading it - that's the game for you - as you can pit yourself against other players who think they can do the same with their nations!

I'm posting this to get some early feedback on the game outline.

[Executor]

No diplo game but not anonymous? You sure have a lot of faith in people, or I misunderstood you.

[WraithLord]

Good point. Let me restate accordingly:

Next game I plan to host will be an AND game, like RAND but w/o the random nation assignment, with the all ages mod and CBM and no generators. The game theme would be that all nations are allowed. Each player brings the nation he thinks is best or that he can play best.
So no nations would be banned from it and something like 18-22 players in all. You think Hinnom rules, you believe none plays it as good as you and that you are neigh invincible leading it - that's the game for you - as you can pit yourself against other players who think they can do the same with their nations!

The player bring his preference to the host (not me, like in this game). If the nation is free he gets it. If it's taken then can choose another nation.

[Gandalf Parker]

All ages would be fine but CBM makes extensive changes to many of the nations. I havent played with it enough to have any idea what nation I would play best.
Now if it was CBM and random nations then it wouldnt matter :)

[WraithLord]

Yes, but for next game I don't want randomness. I want each player to bring to bear what he thinks is the most bad-*** nation. No nation would be banned b/c of balance reasons. You want LA R'lyeh go ahead and grab it, just take into account that you'd be facing the meanest, toughest nations on the block.

[Executor]

I feel no gem generator kills the purpose of some nations, Patala, C'tis...

[Calahan]

Kailasa and Machaka are another two off the top of the head that suffer greatly under no gem gen.

[Frozen Lama]

tell me about it

[Executor]

EA and MA C'tis are my favorite nations beside Mictlan and I think I am pretty good with them, however that would be like cutting off your own leg. Compare it with EA Mictlan without the blood slaves, what's the point?
If you want a competitive game with ALL nations even LA Ermor and such and see all the nations at their best, you can't really cripple some nations like this as you'll be creating major unbalance by doing so.
That's just how I feel.

[Calahan]

I must say that I am hating gem generators more and more in games, so I welcome any new games that start with bans on them. But....
If you want a competitive game with ALL nations even LA Ermor and such and see all the nations at their best, you can't really cripple some nations like this as you'll be creating major unbalance by doing so.
This is a bloody good point. You can't really ask players to bring their favourite nations to the table for an ultimate showdown if you are going to handicap a load of them before it even starts.

[Gandalf Parker]

There is no way to NOT affect some nations by the choices that are made. Everything affects someone. Thats one of the pros and cons of Dominions. There is no absolute "best" in anything because that best is likely to be raised or lowered by game settings, nation choices, mods, map type and size, etc.

Eventually the person running the game will just have to select the game settings and take the knocks on who was affected by it.


Gandalf Parker
--
To some people, unlimited choices are no choices.

[WraithLord]

Basically the pros and cons for gem gens are:

Pros: Some nations shine with them or are not playable w/o them.
any more?

Cons: MM. They are one of the reasons all end games tend to look the same. They allow hoarders to "hide" huge piles of income.
more?

I'm not a fanatic of either choice. I wanted them out b/c I thought that's the latest fashion and I wanted my next game to be in moda. We can take that down if player don't like this choice.

And yes I do want players to feel free to take LA Ermor or Pythium or Fomoria etc.

I think AsiaTwist (my 2nd game ) is approaching show down. It can take a month or two to complete and then I'll start the new game. I'd have loved to start it now but I vowed not to do 3 games in a row anymore. So I settle for talking about the 3rd one :)

[rdonj]

As arcoscephale has staled the last several turns in a row and I have been unable to get in contact with its player, I am opening a sub request. Hopefully one can be found before the next turn hosting.

[WingedDog]

In my humble opinion the best ally of gem generating strategy is a NAP. When you feel safe you can invest extra gems for the better future. In RAND game you can put priority #1 to producing gem generators, but just don't cry when you find out clams do not help you fight off enemy invasion.

[WraithLord]

@rdonj, Thank you for your effort!

@WingedDog, That's a good point.

I think I'll just put this to vote and let majority decide. It's either that or let YARG winner decide (assuming he joins) ;)

[Micah]

Cons: Creates an inflationary feedback loop with wishing, especially with forge discounts, which in turn makes Forge of the Ancients a game-breaking global instead of just a very good one.

Decouples gem income from provinces, making raiding and even wholesale province capture hold little meaning.

Can be transferred to an allied nation upon the forger being killed off, unbalancing the game considerably, especially in the late game.

Is a mandatory strategy. Any winning strategy in a game with standard settings will be forced to use the gem items to be competitive, and when everyone has to do it why not just take them out so no one has to?

Makes site searching later in the game largely irrelevant. Who cares if you find a new site when you're cranking out 10 new gem items a turn? The only sites that matter are discount sites or indy mages. Playing without gens makes every site discovery an important event.

I'm going to go ahead and flat-out disagree with WingedDog's investment comment. The payback on a blood stone is quite short and it serves as a booster (7 turns for the E gems, and once you have about 10 of them in play your E income isn't going to be very constrained) and clams are also quite short, with the additional complication that W gems pretty much totally suck, so you're essentially investing the spare change you have under your couch and getting back pure gold.


The pros for them remaining in are also largely overstated. It isn't that hard to break into clamming, so claiming they help balance is reaching a bit. (Worst case for normal settings: 80W is less than 8 clams, which will empower an indy shaman to W2, add a water bracelet and you have a clammer that can summon naiads for any additional needs. Most of the "natural" clamming nations need to get to cons6 for water bracelets anyhow, so there isn't a significant time savings for many of them.) Blood stones in particular also tend to help some of the stronger nations, since national blood access is already a huge plus for a nation. Hinnom doesn't exactly need tons of help.

The fixes that should happen IMO are giving boosts to some of the nations and/or the W path in general to compensate for the slight bit of damage done to them by the removal of the gens, which would actually make them fun to play with, as opposed to boosting them with a mechanic that drags the whole game down by its very presence.

[WraithLord]

You have explained the cons and pros eloquently and put very convincing arguments against generators.
As for nations that rely on clamming I think if your nation's game strategy is clamming then something is clearly broken with your nation.
IMO generators should cost less but create gems that can't be transfered from the mage to lab (like a cursed item). This way they could only be used as IW intended them - for battle magiks.

I think tartarains are less of an issue than generators.

[Kuritza]

As for nations that rely on clamming I think if your nation's game strategy is clamming then something is clearly broken with your nation.

Yet, there are broken nations which are hopeless without clams.

[StrictlyRockers]

I have to say that this is one of the best game formats for Dominions that I have ever played. I think it is great fun. I would like to be included in any future RAND games that start up, so if anyone thinks to start one, please send me a pm. I would love to play in some more games like this one.

SR

[WraithLord]

I'm glad you are enjoying it :)

I esp. like the shorter turns and the removal of diplomacy. Suddenly it's all so quite and your fate depends totally on you, well at least it feels that way when you don't have to take into account a tangled mess of NAPs, agreements, alliances (ever shifting) etc.

[Executor]

I must say, I'm enjoying this game very much, everyone's fighting it out to the end, Atlantis, Arco, Agartha...
I'd like to thank everyone for sticking it out, not turning AI and refusing to give up, it's really a change compared to other games.

And I know it's not in my place to say this, but please don't turn AI folks, and if you have to at least PM the admin first so maybe a sub could be found!

[Executor]

So who was Agartha?

[rdonj]

He still controls a fort. I'll wait until he's gone for good before announcing.

[Slobby]

He still controls a fort. I'll wait until he's gone for good before announcing.

Agartha went ai

[rdonj]

Oops, somehow I missed this. Sorry. Agartha was played by ossa, and replaced with jr77 when it was discovered that he offered another player an NAP.

Also, the hosting interval has been changed to 72 hours as per the opening post.

[WingedDog]

That's grateble, amazingble and wonderfuble. :clap:

[Calahan]

Ok, Arco are out as of this turn. So time to name the original Arco player who staled a ridiculous 25% of their turns.

[Executor]

Yes, who was arco?

Sigh... people sometimes do extremely stupid things in rand games by not paying atension...

[rdonj]

Arco was played by Strictlyrockers, with a brief stint by stretch at the end there.

[WingedDog]

Arco was played by Strictlyrockers, with a brief stint by stretch at the end there.

Could you please update the first page.

[rdonj]

Well, I can't but wraithlord can.

[WraithLord]

Updated :)

[Frozen Lama]

My poor nation of Caelum is now defeated. thanks for having me!

[WraithLord]

Thank you Frozen Lama for joining the game. I hope you found it enjoyable.

[Calahan]

Can I please ask who the valiant leader of Jomon was? (defeated this turn, which is turn 41)

[Gandalf Parker]

I was Jomon. Thanks all for the game. :)
:clap:

[rdonj]

Okay everyone, due to llamaserver issues the game has had a lot of time added onto it. Well, unfortunately patala also now needs a permanent sub. So I'm going to have to add another long delay onto the turn while I search for one. Hopefully this won't take too long.

Since patala's player will no longer be with us, I suppose it is my duty to inform you who was playing them. Patala was being played by executor. He had to dump a lot of games due to not having time a while ago, but was hoping this wouldn't be one of them... but unfortunately it turns out that wasn't the case.

[LumenPlacidum]

I'd just like to take a moment to say how much fun this game has been so far. Also, WOO, for my first solo MP game, I never expected to last this long!

It's amazing how long the early game lasts when research is slow and gems fairly scarce!

[WraithLord]

I totally agree with you :)

I think these settings emphasize "normal" military prowess. If it weren't for ubber bless nations taking unfair advantage from this those settings would have been my favorite.

[Executor]

Well, good luck to the rest of you folks, It was fun while I was in the game, I'm sorry to bail on my nation, had very high hopes for it but I really don't have any time left for dominions any more, the last few turns by me were very careless and sloppy...

As always thanks to Calahan for keeping an eye on stalling nations and the overall game balance. :)

[WraithLord]

Thank you Executor for playing with us. It's not much of a secret that you led your nation to a very good position.

I'm sorry that you're left with no time to see this through.

[rdonj]

I've found a sub for executor's position, and they have already submitted the current turn. So everything should be good to go.

[WingedDog]

Is Mictlan player still there?

[TwoBits]

Mictlan still seems to be putting up a fight, or so it seems. Maybe they just need a reminder?

The other player that hasn't submitted yet is Pangaea, and they do seem almost done. Might have to resort to AI if they don't turn up soon?

[rdonj]

Mictlan's player was just having a little bit of computer trouble. Looks like he's gotten that fixed now. Pangaea, well, he's in too it seems.

[rdonj]

By the way everyone, hosting is now at 96 hours as per the first post.

[rdonj]

Due to being overloaded with work in real life, calahan has been forced to resign from this game. Calahan was playing... man.

So be careful about getting your turns in guys, he was my primary stale-alert ;)

[WraithLord]

I'm sorry to hear that.

Has he switched control to the AI?

[rdonj]

No, I'm looking for a sub. Put out a sub hunting thread earlier today... hopefully it won't take too long to find a replacement, but I haven't gotten any hits yet.

[rdonj]

Okay, a sub has been found. I'm adding 48 hours to the timer so that the sub has a chance to acquaint themself with the situation.

[WingedDog]

Mictlan player needs attenion as well in my opinion. He had 2 stales and about to stale again.

P.S. Thank you, rdonj for all your efforts and attention to the game, you're doing great job as admin! :up:
Also thanks to all players, this game has a low dropout percentage, I do really enjoy it.

[rdonj]

Alright, I am sending a message to mictlan. If he stales again this turn I will begin looking for a sub.

Edit: Actually, mictlan is not looking so hot. It is probably not worth looking for a sub, unless the person killing them really wants one.

[rdonj]

Mictlan has been prodded and assures me he will continue playing.

[WingedDog]

rdonj
Thanks again.
It's the matter of balance nations are controlled by human players as long as possible. And if players start thinking their neighbours get free territories from AI while they fight very hard for every piece of land they tend to drop out from the game. In my experience finding a sub for a dying nation is far easier then for a large empire.

[rdonj]

Yeah, it does tend to be. I just wasn't sure how well it'd go over after I had just looked for another sub. But yes, as long as it is possible I will try to keep human players playing the nations in the game.

[WraithLord]

who played Pan?

[rdonj]

Pangaea was originally played by ano, who then gave control over to danbo, who would later go on to give control of pangaea to psycho.

[WraithLord]

cheers to all the good players that are no longer with us and those that still are :cheers:
no one quits this game. astounding.

[Psycho]

I played the last turns. But, the war was lost before I took over. Maybe if Ulm acted differently, just maybe, there was still chance for Pan.

Sorry about the stale last turn. I wanted to make the last stand, so I didn't do the turn right away and then I forgot about it.

Anyway, GG Midgard from what I saw.

[WingedDog]

Atlantis is out this turn. It would be nice to know who they were.

[rdonj]

Atlantis was played by strabo.

[LumenPlacidum]

Well, that's all for me. I played Ulm throughout. Nuts, my last ditch attempt was cut short by a single vine arrow entangling the communion master who was gonna cast summon earthpower for everyone. Oh well. Hat off to Midgard!

[WraithLord]

My thanks to you LumenPlacidum and to all the other players past and present. It's amazing how everyone fight until the bitter end.
This is turning out to be one of the most entertaining games I've played. I think this game does deserve a sequel though it's probably too early to bring that up :)

[rdonj]

Mictlan is having some computer troubles as of late, and wishes to inform people that this is the cause of recent stalings rather than lack of interest. I am adding a delay to hopefully give them some time to figure out a workaround.

[WingedDog]

My thanks to you LumenPlacidum and to all the other players past and present. It's amazing how everyone fight until the bitter end.
This is turning out to be one of the most entertaining games I've played. I think this game does deserve a sequel though it's probably too early to bring that up :)

If there will be a sequel I would surely love to take part in it. I only can afford one game at a time, so another game like this is undoubtedly the best choice for me to invest time into.
I do like everything about this game: slow passing schedule, people playing to the death, difficult research, strong indies, and the way our administrator works of course. :) I don't know what else I could wish for... Well for CBM perhaps :),but I can't say lack of CBM spoils this game.

[WraithLord]

If our beloved admin approves I hope CBM makes it to next game. The no gem gens in 1.6 finally swayed me.

[rdonj]

Well, I don't see why CBM couldn't be in the next YARG. I've no idea why my opinion on it would matter though, as I can't really see it affecting me :)

[WingedDog]

Man is AI this turn, who was it?

Will there be a New Year break?

[rdonj]

Man was initially played by calahan, who had to bow out due to time constraints. Herode then led man in its final days.

As for a new years break, one is not specifically planned but if someone needs the time there will be no problem with granting one. The game is now on a 120 hour timer, with the next hosting set for 20:40 GMT on january 1st anyway.

[WingedDog]

Looks like we've lost Jotun player to AI.

Would you please name him and update the first page?

[WraithLord]

I'll update once rdonj divulges the information. What a shame he didn't go all the way. IIRC he had a VP left :(

[rdonj]

Utgard was played by slobby.

[WraithLord]

updated first post.

Here's the current list:
1. WraithLord
2. ano, Danbo, Psycho. Led Pangaea valiantly until turn 53
3. Calahan, herode, Leader of Man. Defeated on turn 60
4. Ossa, replaced by jr77, Leader of Agartha. Defeated on turn 31.
5. Dimaz
6. Gandalf Parker. Leader of Jomon. Defeated on turn 41.
7. TwoBits
8. Natpy. Leader of Marignon. Defeated on turn 20.
9. Frozen Lama. Leader of Caelum. Defeated on turn 40.
10. Dragar. Leader of Abysia. Defeated on turn 16.
11. Strabo. Leader of Atlantis. Defeated on turn 54.
12. Executor
13. Isokron
14. Raiel
15. WingedDog
16. Slobby, Leader of Utgard. Turned AI on turn 67.
17. LumenPlacidum. Leader of Ulm. Defeated on turn 56.
18. Alpine Joe
19. StrictlyRockers. Leader of Arco. Defeated on turn 36.

[WraithLord]

Dear players. I'd like to remind you that I'm not the admin of this game. I've created the game but since I wanted to participate as a player rdonj has kindly volunteered to admin.
Please contact him for any admin requests. I'm deleting any PM sent to me with the subject of YARG on the spot (to honor the 'A' part of RAND).

[rdonj]

Yeah guys, sending stuff to wraithlord is a no-no. Make sure you come to me with all requests and issues.

[WingedDog]

Mictlan is down.
End is nigh.

[WraithLord]

who was he?

[rdonj]

Mictlan was played by alpine joe.

[WraithLord]

First post updated.
It's down to:
Dimaz
TwoBits
Executor
Isokron
Raiel
WingedDog
& me

[WraithLord]

Apparently, llamaserver is shutdown until it gets a chance to upgrade. This suggests that we'll all need to upgrade before submitting the current turn (or resubmit if needed).

[WingedDog]

Thank you.

*UPGRADE COMPLETE*

[TwoBits]

Hm, the turn has generated, but the new file hasn't come my way, even after I requested a resend. Is it just me? Or maybe a problem with Llamaserver after the update/patch?

[WraithLord]

You can try and contact llamabeast.
Or you could try 2 contact rdonj and give him a different email address.

[rdonj]

Well, I see your post. There's not really a whole lot I can do about it at the moment. Wraithlord's idea might work. I could also have the server send the turn to me and then send it on to you. I know I've got your email address somewhere but I've failed to properly label it, which is slightly a problem. Anyway, decide what you want to do and we'll see what happens.

[TwoBits]

OK, the turn file(s) came through. Just seems like they were slow. Zeldor mentioned the same problem in another thread regarding another game. But like I said, seems to be cleared up now :)

[rdonj]

Good to hear :)

[Maerlande]

Wraithlord,

Can we get clarification on the Victory Conditions since one player (unknown) has 8 VPs now?

I have 2 questions.

1) Do you have to hold vps for any particular length of time?

2) Does being in the castle but seiged count as owning the vp?

[WingedDog]

Wraithlord,

Can we get clarification on the Victory Conditions since one player (unknown) has 8 VPs now?

I have 2 questions.

1) Do you have to hold vps for any particular length of time?

2) Does being in the castle but seiged count as owning the vp?

1) No, the person who gains 9 VP's is an automatically declared winner the very next turn.
2) VP is controlled by the nation inside the castle.

And, P.S. This is an anonymous game, so think before posting. You are not in the lists for this game, which means you are a sub, and there was only 1 sub recently, so it's not very difficult to figure out which nation you are. Not that it really matters at current stage of the game, but still, rules are rules.

[WraithLord]

WingedDog has it right :)

[rdonj]

I gave him permission to post. Guess I should have done the asking for him to avoid problems :P

[Maerlande]

Let's see if I get this right. I can't send PM's to Wraithlord for clarification because he won't read them. And I did talk to rdonj before posting. So basically you guys are chastising me for using the only forum available to get clarification?

[WingedDog]

Nobody chastise anyone. There are just alternate ways to get an answer without revealing your identity.
Since your question isn't specifically related to this very game, but to basic game mechanics - you could have just started a thread in Dominions section:
"Guys, I'm in the game with VP's placed in capitals, and I have questions:
1) Do you have to hold vps for any particular length of time in order to win?
2) Does being in the castle but sieged count as owning the vp?"

[rdonj]

To be fair, usually in games that have VPs, you are expected to hold them for a number of turns. This game is the only exception to that that I've seen. The OP is pretty clear if you read it literally, but it's always possible the game creator just forgot about something when creating the game. Anyway it's good to make sure of this now, before too much drama occurs.

[WingedDog]

rdonj

No, no, no, 'capture and hold X capitals for Y turns' is a different story, unrelated to victory by VP's :) There's a white bar at VP's score graphs in game, when someone's VP's graph reaches it - *pouf*, game over.

[TwoBits]

Yeah, we should cut Maerlande some slack: He subbed into a game - which is a very cool thing to do - with a very unusual setup, and we can't then really blame him for not adhering completely to the rules (after all, he didn't mention any specific nation, etc.). I for one didn't peg him as a sub, mainly because I lack the attention span necessary to follow this thread attentively (crap, this game has gone on long enough for me to forget most of what happened early on). And besides, his questions are largely irrelevant at this point anyway ;)

[WraithLord]

Maerlande, nobody's chastising you. At least not as far as I can tell.
All rule systems have their gray areas and corner cases. There's nothing wrong with you asking. In a game such as this an astute player may guess the identity of other players based on nuances such as they way they like to expand or fight etc. So while it's true you could ask in a different way or thread I don't think this is a cause of much fuss.
I for one appreciate your agreeing to sub. Keep up the good work and if you have further questions re. victory conditions then just ask rdonj. If he ain't sure he can contact me and we'll iron it out.
In YARG2 I'll post the recommended way to ask questions in the house rules section so it'll be clearly defined.

[Dimaz]

So, who is our winner? I bet it's WL :)

[WraithLord]

Nope. I'd have thought it was you but now I know better :p

[WingedDog]

Rejoice, True God had ascended! My congratulations to Midgard.
I did enjoy the game, even if I didn't have chances to win and played as a background most of the game. Credit to my opponents.

My personal discredit to Tien Chi player for total pacifism, and to player subung Patala after Executor (not the last Patala player, whoever this mysterious person is) for not even trying.

List of the players to the studio, please!

[WraithLord]

ok. Now that the game's over we can remove the masks. I was playing Bogarus. Here's a short AAR:

Prior to this game I'd no experience with Bogarus. I had no idea how it plays so I set out to experiment and at the end went for an awake E4 Wyrm + good scales build.
The Wyrm made my initial expansion a breeze. Unfortunately I was hit by Arco from the north while my armies were expanding on the south so it took me a while to swing back and hit Arco hard.
Meanwhile Ctis has intervened and I was content to let it finish Arco.
A mistake since Ctis cont. by attacking me. Ctis with W9 bless but little research didn't seem like much of an obstacle to stellar research Bogarus thus came my 2nd mistake - underestimating Ctis.
So I thought, no need to open the after burners and squish Ctis. I can take my time with it while running longer term projects in the background (research, forging & summoning).
As it was, Ctis was led by a very competent player and the war that ensued lasted for the rest of the game. The war was actually fun, it had everything: raids, skirmishes and huge battles, mind games, surprises, disappointments and tragedies aplenty for both sides.
Now Ctis is almost dead (thanks Patala for that extra push :) ) but the war with Ctis practically neutralized me the whole game so I could only watch in horror as Midgard made his way to victory.

At times it felt like there were two games. One in which Midgard and the rest were playing it out and another - my private hell, shared by my hated cellmate - Ctis player ;)

[WraithLord]

congratz Midgard!

Come forward all. I want to know who's who :)

[Dimaz]

I was Gath. Also no experience before this game (however, after it started I was really impressed by them and took them in Sharivar). I don't want to tell all the details now as some of them can be used against me in Sharivar, but after Constr 2 and 4 I started equipping Gadols as thugs/SCs and they were my main force after that. I was bordered by Mictlan and Tien Chi and decided to attack Mictlan first before he had tons of jags, even before I had Constr research done, and we had some nice battles, including tele-fragging his Dagon with my god in neutral dominion, after which I managed to take his second castle and siege his capital. In the process Tien Chi took some of my lands, but I was able to stop him moving further and he fought with Utgard after that. Mictlan was able to break my siege with his tons of sacreds, but my Gadols were able to retreat and regroup and sieged him again, and now they were all set to preach as breaking the Mict capital seems as tough as Pangea's. I reached Constr8 and forged many nice stuff including Chalice, Gatestone, Magebane, The Summit, Boots of Planes and some other arts. Finally Mictlan was preached out (our war was 40+ turns long I think), and I started invading TC who finished with Utgard at the time. He made no attempt to retaliate at all but I was overcautious and lost some time here too. All this time I had almost no nature (2-3 or so for the first 40+ turns and 4-5 in the end) so I had no clams and fetishes, but in the end I started spamming Bloodstones, unfortunately it was too late.
Midgard was climbing the graph but I had no access to him (except teleporting on some of his rear VP with astral gadols and Gatestone, which I was planning) but he did it first, I equipped all teleporting forces last turn with all I had and threw them in the final battle, but they had absolutely no chances.
So, all in all, it was rather interesting game for me and I hope I will join the sequel :)

[WraithLord]

Oh and many many thanks to our gracious host - rdonj!

Dimaz: Yes. A sequel is certainly in store.
I think players of this game should get the chance to join first. So all who wish to join the sequel please speak up now. I'll open a new thread for the sequel in a day or two.

rdonj: are you still willing to perform as admin for the sequel?

All: The sequel will be CBM 1.6. Any other changes you want to make please speak up now.

[Calahan]

Congrats to Midgard. My guess is Midgard is Isokron ftw. And it was looking pretty ominous for everyone else even before RL forced me to bow out as Man somewhere around turn 50.

I'll try to write a AAR when I find time to cover the uneventful campaign that was Man. Not much to mention, but a few scolds to hand out to those who gave away nation id's, and a mention about the OP starting location Pythium had. (A ridiculous 7 provinces automatically safeguarded at the start due to the connection between 200+219 being cut. Bad map editing someone, as Pythium cap should have been a lot further East than it was, or the connection kept open)


And thanks to the players, and of course the fabulous and selfless admin work done by rdonj. Hope I didn't annoy you too much with my regular pokes regarding stalers and pestering for sub-finding :)


Edit: @ Wraith - I'd potentially be up for a CBM sequal. will try to gather some ideas for it (can't think of any right now though tbh, apart from my usual requsts of a wrap-around map and not having caps marked with bullseyes)

[Psycho]

No surprise here. Subbing Pangaea three-four turns into the game I already saw Midgard as winner. I took over Pangaea with no Pans (except for 1 panic apostate), almost no national army (just indy crossbows and giants), all gems spent, no items in the treasury, nature income of 3 (no site outside of capital and everything searched for N) and pretender dead. Obviously in war with Midgard, but my main army standing on the border with Ulm. I rushed the army towards the capital, but it was too late. I tried to entice Ulm to attack Midgard, but he attacked me. So, while everyone fought mostly even fights going back and forth - Ctis and Bogarus, Mictlan and Gath, Man and Utgard - Midgard just steamrolled over Pan and Ulm. Many experienced players in the game, but everyone just let Midgard get away with it (at least while Pan was still alive).

[WingedDog]

I was the one behind C'tis.

I took W9E4 awake Blue Dragon, becouse after few initial expasion tests I found C'tis troops to be pretty weak to expand against indies 9 on their own, so I needed an SC. C'tis had lot of sacred troops, mages and summons, so SC with a good bless seemed to be good idea. After few more tests I found water bless to be most sufficient as it made sacred serpents a lot more effective in early game and turned Tomb Kings into unstoppable killing machines later on. Earth was taken as a bless for mages + hammers and possible earth summons.

Alas, I had the worst beginning I ever had so far. I started in the area with only forests and mountains around. For the first 7 turns I had 3 indies attack on my provinces (misfortune 1), one of them destroyed my early fortress

at the building stage the very same turn I moved my pretender away from the province (ironicaly scales in that province atm were order 2, neutral fortune:) ). Ouch! Retaking provinces was a hell, becouse mountans and forests were annoyingly slowing my movement. Then, my pretender got a disease affiction from indies, and got muted the very next turn. Ouch! But I wasn't the one unlucky around - my scout reported Arco's pretender was lost to the indies, and I took it as my opportunity to climb out of the pit. Bogarus was also displaying interest in Arco, so I desided to launch an attack as soon as possible to capture the capital first... And it was my mistake, I should have just continued taking indie provinces around them, growing in streight. Arcoscephalians repelled with everything they got, totally devastating my invasion force, and launching counterattack afterwards. I managed to overcome them in a bloodshedy war, but was considerably weakened and lost my pretender twice.
Bogarus player acted wisely and stayed out of our fight researching, bloodhunting and building forces. He striked precicely after I took over Arco capital with thunderstrike spamming reverse communion never giving me a time to recover from the war. The research level of Bogarus was the gratest at the moment, while I had to place most of my mages on the battlfield in order to defeat Arco and thus having the lousiest research in the game. Had Bogarus brought more mages out of his labs - I'd be a lost cause for sure, but with some 'cat and mouse' games I managed to win some time and to withstand the invasion by the price of a loss of Arco's capital. After reaching a sertain level of research I finally managed to bear of my fangs. Rigor Mortis, Quagmire, Winter Grip and their combinations were a nightmare for Bogarus's comunions, I took the upper hand in war for some time and even managed to break into Bogarus's capital destroying ~30 comanders, mostly starets's and 2 Queens of Air... but it was my magnum opus for this game, Bogarus started using Life after Death and focusing on building skeletons, vampires and tartarians. Having way less resourses then Bogarus I started slowly fading.
In the meantime my intelligence informed me of Patala, gathering forces for the reasons unknown. Keeping in mind Midgard marching all over the rest of the world, I decided Patala prepares an attack on him, but still had an itchy feeling and built some forces in my capital... And it was a right decision, Patala attacked me with such a number of artifacts I felt almost flattered. But from geopolitical point of view they had unbound Midards hands. Seeing Patala is occupied with me Midgard atacked Pythium - the only other nation who could make a difference for him beside Patala (and possibly Ashdod) the very next turn. Even if I managed to pull first Patala wave away - second one was deadly for me, but it did not really matter, becouse Midgard rockes the World, baby! :)

But, anyway, I really enjoyed the game, and special thanks to my opponent, Wraithlord, for that.:)
Thanks to all participants.
Very special thanks to rdonj for being a perfect administrator.
Looking forward for the next RAND game.:)

P.S. Glad to see you back, Cal. :)

[Maerlande]

My personal discredit to Tien Chi player for total pacifism, and to player subung Patala after Executor (not the last Patala player, whoever this mysterious person is) for not even trying.

I played Patala.

You have insulted me severely twice in the last week in this thread. First in your comments on my simple request to clarify the victory conditions. Second here. I suppose this one you didn't know it's me. Frankly, I assumed you had it figured after my desperate attempt to get clarification in a hurry.

Luckily, you have made it clear that your personal discredit isn't worth the electrons it's sent with.

I made a severe mistake and did not understand the victory conditions. I only realized two turns ago that Midgard was near victory. I took over the position from Executor on turn 45 and have stayed with it the entire game.

My second mistake was worse. I had built up two huge armies planning to astral travel onto Midgard when required. But I didn't finish Thaumaturgy 9 in time. So sadly, I sent every air drop capable thug and sc onto the final battle without supporting trops. And I lost.

This all comes from playing too many games at once. A noob mistake.

At least I can happily say I sent Ctis down the toilet before I wasted my chance.

It was pretty clear to me early that I might as well let Ctis and Bogarus bash each other senseless which they did with great gusto. I just sat back and made clams and prepped SC's. My terrible mistake was in timing. I waited too long to air drop onto Midgard and was left with the only option to drop onto his huge prepared army.

[WraithLord]

WingedDog I'm thankful to you for providing me a very entertaining war. I knew I can't make a difference on the game but our "cat and mouse" games kept me going :)

And for the record, as my kid might say: "it was you who started it". You have attacked me first and I had to retaliate. My original plan was to attack midgard, not you, b/c I saw Pan caving in to him. In-fact, when you attacked me I was thinking, "what the hell?", now why on earth would Ctis want to attack me?- doesn't he see my research advantage?

For the record, I also had bad luck all game long. As a result I'm never taking misfortune 2 again. I was visited by the heroes, raided by indies every turn, lost temples and what not. My luck this game just stank so from now on it's neutral luck scales for me :)

I want to come clean on more mistakes I made out of inexperience with Boagarus or vanity:
1. E4 on pretender turned out to be a waste of design points.
2. I should have focused on blood and not on constr. 8/conj 8. The artifacts I forged weren't really helpful. The unique summons like AQs didn't stand toe to toe with Ctis thugs/SCs.
3. Something happened to golems. I can't put my finger on what but I no longer consider them a trustworthy heavy duty raider SC chasis. I lost equipped golems to mobs of undead all over the place.
4. death focused communions are generally way better than air focused.
5. My biggest mistake - underestimating you. I think it was your poor start that misled me to thing you're inexperienced. So I thought I could win against you with 20% resources dedicated to war and all the rest to build up my infrastructure.
I learned my lesson in humility :D

[WraithLord]

Updated first post.

Still missing nations of Isokron, Raiel & TwoBits. One of which is our lucky winner.

[TwoBits]

Crap, thought there's be at least one more turn, but Utgard didn't have enough left to keep the walls up. Oh well, not like the relief force I was putting together really had any chance anyway.

Anyhow, I was Pythium. Went with an awake E5 Cyclops (the only effective way to handle Indies-9, I mean, even Order-3 didn't give enough Hydras to expand well), so my scales were pretty spotty.

But I got off to a good start. As Calahan noted, I had somewhat of a break in the border arrangements regarding Man, and had my flanks secure by being in the corner. But then again, I was saddled with lots of Wastelands and other crummy real-estate.

Even without using Hydras, I had the military strength and magical diversity to overpower Jomon. As Mictlan and Gath were busy fighting over more Wastelands, Man seemed like a logical target (no recruitable SCs and such to worry about, a secure flank, ease of patrolling for infiltrators, etc.).

There were some big battles, but things slowly went my way (Flaming Arrows were still fairly effective at that point), perhaps aided by Calahan turning over the rains to another player. And while that was going on, I found a magic site that allowed recruitment of Circle Masters, and another for Sorcerers, so was beginning to get into Blood in a respectable way (although suitable Blood-Hunting provinces were few).

And right when I was besieging the last Man fortress (AI at this point), Midgard hit me hard, taking advantage of Sailing at first to rout me from the southern Man lands, and then sending in the Raiders. Sorry for casting Eyes of God (your scouts probably missed out on watching some interesting action in Pythium lands), but I thought it might help me catch his Vanadrotts - it didn't :(

All I could do was use flying demons and such (once I found the proper commanders - w/ Astral - and gave them flying gear) to retake lost ground, and try to kill his raiders with Mind Hunt (had some success, but S income was low, and I only had a few capable commanders - and only one after a big defeat). Meanwhile, I was slowly getting ground down.

Rain of Stones was a big killer. Pythium's human mages do not hold up well to those kind of battle spells. Even using Mass Protection was no help, not when Midgard cast Army of Lead on its own troops, and dropped 3-4 RoSes in a row :hurt: And having to commit many mages to battle meant I slowly started to fall behind in research, so my own Army of Lead (and only my pretender could cast it) was a long way off.

So basically, I was outnumbered, outspent, outreaserched, and outfought. Kudos to Midgard on the masterly take-down!

I'd be interested in a YARG 2 (especially with CBM 1.6 - I think that would really have helped Pythium a lot, with Dragon Master and whatnot). Not having to engage in diplomacy early in the game certainly made things a heck of a lot earlier. But then again, I really wish I could have cried for help when Midgard was administering its beating to me :D

[WraithLord]

...

I'll try to write a AAR when I find time to cover the uneventful campaign that was Man. Not much to mention, but a few scolds to hand out to those who gave away nation id's, and a mention about the OP starting location Pythium had. (A ridiculous 7 provinces automatically safeguarded at the start due to the connection between 200+219 being cut. Bad map editing someone, as Pythium cap should have been a lot further East than it was, or the connection kept open)


...


Edit: @ Wraith - I'd potentially be up for a CBM sequal. will try to gather some ideas for it (can't think of any right now though tbh, apart from my usual requsts of a wrap-around map and not having caps marked with bullseyes)

Glad to have you aboard :)
As for your points re. map - it's clear you have good maps understanding and I think your points are good. Do you think you could apply fixes to the game map according to your comments?

[WingedDog]

And for the record, as my kid might say: "it was you who started it". You have attacked me first and I had to retaliate. My original plan was to attack midgard, not you, b/c I saw Pan caving in to him. In-fact, when you attacked me I was thinking, "what the hell?", now why on earth would Ctis want to attack me?- doesn't he see my research advantage?


Hmmmm... Really I remember it the other way around. And I remember my thought: "Bogarus chose a perfect timing for a strike. I'd do the same thing myself if I was him." But I had no reason to doubt your word, so I needed a proof for myself I'm not going mad, and after a brief search I found a turn when our war began. Take a look, you are the one who started it!:)

[WraithLord]

Are you sure WingedDog? I also have saved the turns and I was positive it was you who attacked me first.
ok, I did some searching. You attacked me two turns earlier at turn 26 province 99 (pwd is "klavim_tovim" ).

Edit: not much of an attack but I was thinking - Ha, he clearly plans a large invasion so I must retaliate ASAP.
EDIT2: Thus begun the via dolorosa for Bogarus :)

[WingedDog]

Now it makes sense. Two turns earlier I was in a vacation and my nation was ruled by Burnsaber. He had forgotten to save the turns for me and I never seen them.:)

[TwoBits]

LOL! Such small things do great events turn upon! No wonder all were busy when Pythium was getting stomped by Midgard ;)

Oh, and that shall be my lesson, save all turns from any future MP games :D

[Isokron]

Victory!

I was playing midgard which was a first for me. At first glance they didnt seem very impressive but I did some test games and found skinshifters to expand really well and later on in the game I would be really impressed with their mages versatility also. So i decided to skip vans and big blesses and go for a sleeping rainbow with great scales.

Expansion went well but then Marignon attacked and i thought I was in big trouble. Luckily he didnt seem very experienced and I could walk in more or less unopposed into his capital which sent all his armies scrambling back and allowing me to take more or less everything else and then killing him. I guess he had overestimated how effective crossbows would be against skinshifters.

Just as I had finished Margingon Pangea attacked me and I thought I was in trouble again. For some reason he got into a war with Ulm at the same time though (not sure who attacked) which diverted a lot of his forces and allowed me to counter attack. This war was probably decided by a bit of luck when my arena champion single handedly killed his gorgon which might otherwise have devastated my armies (only to get killed by some satyrs and an earth meld some turn later :( ). Pangea also went heavily for crossbows but by this time I had storm and mist up which allowed me to take his castles together with some thunderstrike spam.

Well as was becoming a habit by now Ulm attacked me just as I was finishing off Pangea. The situation again looked grim for a while and there was several tense turns when we manoeuvred 200+ armies around each other but somehow not triggering any large battles. Meanwhile my research finally allowed me to equip effective raiders from my vanjarls and they started doing their work in his backyard. When the big battles finally occurred I had arrowfend up so my skinshifters more or less ignored his huge amount of crossbows as they killed everything.

After this I finally got some peace although I ended it quite quickly by taking some cutoff Utgård provinces including a vp while trying to decide to do next.

I decided that Pythium would strike me next after finishing Man whatever I did so I could as well strike first. This went very well and I didnt run into any real heavy resistance until the old Man capital. Here I again got lucky when he didnt get his fogwarriors up until turn 3 which allowed me to kill a lot of his mages (ending several of his BEs) with a rain of stones. If he had gotten fogwarriors on turn2 he would probably have won this battle which in turn would have prolonged the war with at least 5-10 turns giving Gath and Patala plenty of time to strike me.

So the same turn as I took the Man capital I also had a second piece of luck when Gath decided to just scout the Utgård capital showing that it was nearly undefended and the walls where breached. So instead of starting a long slog up to the Pythium capital I opportunistically jumped the Utgård one with everything I had.

My first act as Pantokrator will probably be to build a statue of the dragon of a thousand wounds that involuntarily kept my western border safe from first Bogarus and then Patala. Or maybe I will just summon and petrify it, hm yes that sounds easier.

[WraithLord]

Now it makes sense. Two turns earlier I was in a vacation and my nation was ruled by Burnsaber. He had forgotten to save the turns for me and I never seen them.:)

*do a homer imitation* Why Burnsaber you... *and proceeds to strangle him* ;)

Yes, a chilling demonstration of the butterfly effect. All started with an innocent vacation :)

[rdonj]

Heh, thanks everyone. Being admin for this game wasn't too much work, so yeah, I can handle admin duty for the next YARG as well. And calahan, while you were almost certainly the most active player in PMing me, it was not really annoying :P WingedDog was the other player who sent me lots of PMs about people who were staling, by the way.

Oh, and here is the master list of players:

WraithLord - Bogarus
ano, Danbo, psycho - Pangaea
Calahan, Herode - Man
Ossa, JR77 - Agartha
Dimaz - Gath
Gandalf Parker - Jomon
TwoBits - Pythium
Natpy - Marignon
Frozen Lama - Caelum
Dragar - Abysia
Strabo - Atlantis
Executor, Maerlande - Patala
Isokron - Midgard
Raiel - TC
WingedDog - C'tis
Slobby - Utgard
LumenPlacidum - Ulm
Alpine Joe - Mictlan
StrictlyRockers - Arcoscephale

If there was another sub, then I must have forgotten to take their name down at the time. So if you were a permanent sub for this game and aren't listed here, feel free to speak up.

[TwoBits]

Crap. My new policy is to save all MP turns. If I'd done that before, I could at least go back and see why I hadn't cast Fog Warriors until the third round at the Battle of Man's Capital, and thus doomed us all to bowing down before The Dragon of a Thousand Wounds (that's a good moniker for a Pantakrator though!) ;)

Yeah, I would have had Mass Regeneration, Relief, and Quagmire up at that battle (and maybe some more, but like I said, I didn't save my turns, and now I've forgotten) at Man's capital. But Mass Protection didn't stop you from slaying my mages with RoSes, and after that, it was a foregone conclusion.

BTW, I had no intention of attacking Midgard, at least not until someone else started a fight with you first. But that kind of, "he's gonna attack me soon, so I might as well kill him now", paranoia payed off for you, just as it did for the Roman Republic :D Nice job, Isokron!

[Raiel]

...
My personal discredit to Tien Chi player for total pacifism...

Believe me when I tell you that there is no toungue, mortal or divine, that can adequately express how thoroughly distraught I am to read this. Indeed, I suspect that the culmination of my entire existence has passed me by in complete ignorance.

----

When I joined, I did so as a n00b with a solid understanding of tactics, a decent understanding of strategic movement, but little
to no appreciation of just how important a good long-term strategy is in this game.

I knew nation selection in this game was random, but I figured that with only three nation in the late era that I definitely didn't want to play as, I was safe. Unfortunately, late age TC was my least favorite nation. I've since discovered some things I like about them, but long after designing a rather poor build for this game.

On our first start, I had a great start position that I could have made work even with my poor design. The restart, however, left me starting in a pass (almost dead center of the map) and surrounded by terrain that completely neutralized one of the few TC advantages I was prepared to exploit: strategic mobility.

I eventually attacked Gath to the north and was rebuffed with only a minimal effort... I then ventured east against Utgard, taking the vast majority of his territory and enslaving much of his armies, but could never be sure I was set to take his cap without exposing myself to the other nations around me. Just a newbie's jitters perhaps, but there ya go. :)

Gath invade just a couple of turns before I was ready to cast AN and start an invasion of my own, but the game was pretty much decided before this.

Overall, it was a learning experience that was almost fun. Thanks guys!

[WraithLord]

Isokron, you did a find job getting to victory in this game. And there were those who thought bless nations would rule the day given the game's settings...

Thank you rdonj for agreeing to steer the next YARG. So far we have on board from this games player's:
- Dimaz
- Clahan
- WL

Anyone else interested in securing a spot?- I'll probably start enlisting openly tomorrow so speak up now if you're interested.

Edit, an observation re. bless nations in this game. They evidently didn't fare that well. From the finishing nations and in good state were at least three non bless builds: Pythium, Bogarus and Midgard. At indie 9, low income, no diplo and hard research that's quite interesting.

[WingedDog]

Anyone else interested in securing a spot?-

Ummm... me. I thought I wrote about it. :)

[Maerlande]

Patala was a non-bless build. Executor used a VERY light bless all but insignificant.

[Isokron]

I would be interested in joining a new YARG also.

[WraithLord]

WingedDog: sorry, must have missed that.
Maerlande: Wow, make that 4 none bless builds that made it to the end!

So far we have on board from this game's players:
- Dimaz
- Clahan
- WL
- WingedDog
- Isokron

[LumenPlacidum]

Well as was becoming a habit by now Ulm attacked me just as I was finishing off Pangea. The situation again looked grim for a while and there was several tense turns when we manoeuvred 200+ armies around each other but somehow not triggering any large battles. Meanwhile my research finally allowed me to equip effective raiders from my vanjarls and they started doing their work in his backyard. When the big battles finally occurred I had arrowfend up so my skinshifters more or less ignored his huge amount of crossbows as they killed everything.

Heh, yeah, we had some pretty damn big armies jumping at one another for a while. I had thought I had finally gained the upper hand when I moved around a major army and finally laid siege to a big fortress of yours with a VP in it. Then I realized that the magic sites were all wrong, and it ended up being someone else's capital that you took earlier.

I went with an awake dom 10 ghost king with a bit of nature, blood, and death, hoping to really leverage my immortal vampire counts with a lot of dominion push. The ghost king did wonderfully in helping me expand and I had a great early game, right up until the point where the first fort I was building was destroyed by an ancient power awakening and eating the population and the commander building it...

This was made up by me ganking Atlantis pretty early, including storming their second fort pretty fast (replacing the one that was interrupted) and ruining a Man army at Atlantis' capital, following that by taking said capital. The Ulmish rangers blotted out the sky with their crossbows.

Pangaea had some truly terrifying armies and was sitting right on my border, so I decided that I needed to stem that tide, so I attacked and won through some major casualties. When I saw Pangaea attacking Midgard, I thought it might be my only chance to get a leg up over the vans, so I attacked them with pretty much everything I had. Unfortunately, he turned and *CRUSHED ME MERCILESSLY*. I only hope that all the slave collars I put on wolfherd commanders when he stormed my capital managed to get on some key mages of his.

[Calahan]

...

I'll try to write a AAR when I find time to cover the uneventful campaign that was Man. Not much to mention, but a few scolds to hand out to those who gave away nation id's, and a mention about the OP starting location Pythium had. (A ridiculous 7 provinces automatically safeguarded at the start due to the connection between 200+219 being cut. Bad map editing someone, as Pythium cap should have been a lot further East than it was, or the connection kept open)


...


Edit: @ Wraith - I'd potentially be up for a CBM sequel. will try to gather some ideas for it (can't think of any right now though tbh, apart from my usual requests of a wrap-around map and not having caps marked with bull's-eyes)

Glad to have you aboard :)
As for your points re. map - it's clear you have good maps understanding and I think your points are good. Do you think you could apply fixes to the game map according to your comments?
Lol, think I just sound convincing sometimes, since can't claim my understanding of maps is any better than most peoples. Although do know the type of maps I like and the types I don't.

But I suppose I could add my name to the growing list of people who have tried valiantly to balance the start locations on "Glory of the Gods". Only had one bash at map editing before though, but seem to remember it not being too difficult (to use the tools that is).

That one attempt I had, and because of how much I loath marked or fixed capitals, I split the starting locations up into 'zones', so that each nation had a chance of starting anywhere within a small area, or 'zone', but with no actual fixed starting province. And I arranged the start locations in such a way that no two nations could start next to each other ('next' as in one or two provinces apart). I've attached a picture of the map for that game to show more clearly what I'm on about :)

The map never got used in the end (as a map with more water was needed) so no idea if this 'zone' start idea works in practice. The test games I ran though always had nations starting in separate zones as planned (and not two accidentally in the same 'zone'), but not sure how effective it was at stopping the 'beeline to nearest capital' tactic for rushers. Think it helps a bit, but certainly not as much as pure random starts would.

No idea if a similar 'zone' idea is possible for the Glory of the Gods map though, yet alone if it's a wanted idea in the first place. I know elmokki has done some really nice maps over the past year or so. Maybe worth checking some of them out.

But before all that we probably need to decided which era, as that will influence how many nations are in the game, and how many water provinces are needed (that's if we're having water nations at all that is).

[Slobby]

Congrats Isokron!

I played Utgard.

It was my first time playing them (or any of the niefels for that matter) and the first time that I've gone with a large double bless (E9N9B4). My early plan was to cream someone quick and get a leg up (why buy a 2nd fort when you can take it?). Abysia was the target and after some stumbles I took them out (Pan was harrassing me at the same time).

After the fall of Abysia I then looked at my neighbors. Large Pan to the south, Tien and Gath to the west, Pythium to the north east and Man to the east. The next logical progression was to take out Man because they're known to be weak and then head north to take out Pythium so that I would control the NE portion of the map.

The result? Man put up much more of fight than anticipated and actually took the offensive against me (well done Calahan!). After that Tien came in on the west and I was forced to fight on two fronts, losing territory as the turns went on. All the while my network of spies watched Midgards decimation of Pan.

The final kick was Midgard coming up from the south after ravaging Pan and besieging the old Abysian capital. At the end I had my capital and 1 province, and the Abysian capital was undersiege. Needless to say I was bleeding and done.

I'd definately be interested in another Yarg with CBM, perhaps the next one should be EA or singleage? EA would be fun thematically if you kept the indies at 9, truly a struggle at the beginning of time!

[Alpine Joe]

I was Mictlan. This was one of my first games, and my first non-cbm one. I went with a pretty traditional bless and expansion went decently but then Gath attacked. My troops did well against Gath line troops, but he started deploying Gadol SCs that were very hard to kill. I tried to blitz blood research to get some Anti-SC spells but by the time I researched enough Gath already had me on the ropes. My slave income never really got started so I was low on slaves and B3 mages to make use of Life for Life and other blood combat spells. Then Patala invaded and my jag armies were gone and my Anti-SC counters were useless against him. The end was quite predictable.

I started this game very green and feel like I learned a lot, particularly a high respect for SCs with an earth bless. I would be interested in YARG 2, where I can hopefully avoid 25 turns of sitting in my cap....

[TwoBits]

Yeah, you can sign me up too for the next YARG :)

[WraithLord]

Calahan: Thank you! how about we go EA for YARG2?
I don't want single age b/c rdonj will randomly assign nations and I want to keep it simple so that the nation pool equals the number of players.
EA has 24 nations so we can enlist up to 24 players. I want to keep the indie 9 and hard research settings. I think they gave a refreshing tempo to this game.

So far we have on board from this game's players:
- Dimaz
- Clahan
- WL
- WingedDog
- Isokron
- Slobby
- Alpine Joe
- TwoBits
- Frozen Lama

9/24

YARG2 thread coming up today.

[WingedDog]

My vote is also against single age. Indies 9 and difficult research sure sound fun.

[Calahan]

I also back the calls for not having single age, and keeping high Indy's and tougher research.


@ WraithL - If we go EA on the Glory map and 24 nations, then for the water nations, you'll probably have to make sure we either get the full 24 players, or ensure whoever rolls the nations that all three water nations are assigned. As there's an awful lot of water on offer. Plus on Glory I'd assign (or I will assign with your approval) all the Eastern waters as no start, since the Western sea is too big for just two water nations IMO (especially if the land nations are only having a map average of around 10-11 provinces each).

I'll try and find some time today to browse the map section to see if there are any alternative maps to consider.


@ Isokron - Congrats on a fine win. You're certainly proving yourself to be one tough ombre from the three games I've played with you so far. Looking forward to another tangle here :) And maybe RL will allow me to fight you as well this time instead of annoyingly intervening to spoil the fun :mad:

[WraithLord]

Calahan: We will get full 24 players.
Your idea re. water nations makes sense.
Thanks for following your suggestions with a fix.

[WraithLord]

YARG2 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=736955#post736955)thread is up :)

[TwoBits]

So what's the rational behind 'no renaming'? Is it just too much of a risk of identification? I guess I can understand that, but it would be nice to at least be able to rename your commanders to the unit type and magic paths. Oh well, I can live without it. Otherwise, I don't mind the other parameters.

[WraithLord]

Where possible it's better to remove the temptation.
So with renaming one could name his scout "NAP +3?" and attack a neighbor. No renaming = one less diplo. channel. It ain't perfect and at the end it really boils down to the player's willingness to play by the rules. The rule system is mostly supportive of the "spirit" of no diplo.

[Gandalf Parker]

I know I didnt last long but this was an interesting game. Thank you.
It doesnt look like I will be in the next one though.

[Calahan]

AAR for Man. Part 1.
Man I Hate All Things Green

Right, where to begin this thing. I seem to remember my Pretender design for this game being literally a five minute affair due to a lot of RL crappy-ness at the time. And quite rightly, it was this slap-dash designing that was the cause of most of my limitations during the game. Plus the switch from playing entirely CBM games to suddenly playing a vanilla game did a real number on my senses with regards what Pretenders were cost effective. Probably should've just played a no-brainer card and gone with one of the Pretenders QM has nerfed the hell out of in CBM. Like Cyclops or especially PoD :)

In the end I went for a big multi-path Master Lich with 2's in all paths except for 3 in Earth, Astral and Death for obvious Rings and Hammers access. Part of my hastily put together plan was to take my Pretender awake to get a lot of gem income very quickly. That idea ended up a huge fail.

Scales wise I went for O3S3H2G3M2D2 and Dominion 7.

Order 3 needs no comment. Sloth 3 was fine as well IMO, since even though LA Man has some useful mid-level resource troops, I was planning to use mass Longbows to expand which are resource cheap. Plus once the first dozen or so turns are done, I find resource problems largely vanish with all nations by building forts in select locations (if you have a need for a lot of resources that is). Some nations do need to avoid Sloth though in order to get a decent expansion rate. Heat 2 was just a points grab for extra magic paths. Growth 3 was to keep those damn Arcane's alive. Since without Death or Nature paths their old age were sure to hit them hard come winter. Misfortune 2 is another no comment job given Order 3.

Drain 2 was the main decision scale wise. LA Man's mages can ignore the research effect of Drain scales, so it seemed a logical call. And I avoided Drain 3 due to the magic fading event it allows, which I've been hit with before, and remember it costing me literally hundreds of gems. But my research really did suffer all game as a result, and I'd certainly think about taking a magic scale with LA Man next time. Possibly even Magic 3, under which Magister's become research kings. But then along with this change, I'd also change practically everything else about my build as well, since it was generally very poor all round.

Onto the game itself.......


My start location was pretty dire (200) for LA Man's needs. Dire as in Forests and Mountains everywhere. Since the last type of forts LA Man wants to build are 1000gp Forest Castles, or the God awful 1200gp Hill Castle. So I forecast slim prospects of building any nice money boosting Citadels or Fortified Cities :( Plus all the Forests meant a high likelihood of finding more Nature gems which I wouldn't be able to use for ages.


Some Dominions 3 trivia for you all. Did you know that LA Man are the only nation in the entire game that have a starting gem income but no corresponding national mages with the matching path to use them. In the entire game! No idea if this is WAD or just a pure oversight. But either way it makes no sense IMO, and it can be damn annoying to have only half the useable starting gem income compared to every other nation in the game. Plus it feels completely at odds with how every other nation in the game is setup. Maybe something for CBM to look into?!


My expansion rate was reasonable enough, as just a few Defenders placed just back from centre are fine line holders for the Longbows to do their job from the back. The biggest problem I had during expansion was the sheer lack of options. With the connection between (200)+(219) getting cut during map balance for no logical reason I can see, I was left to either fight for a handful of provinces to my South, where I'd quickly run into whoever started at (138) (Caelum as it turned out), or take my chances into traffic by heading West. I really wanted to avoid the latter as I envisioned whoever started in (248) (Pythium as it turned out) was going to expand hard in a South-West direction, as they had the luxury of being able to ignore all East expansion until a much later date. Since all those provinces were gloriously safeguarded in the early game by the modified map connections. So this, along with a starter at (184) (Utgard as it turned out), left me pretty doubtful of securing any real provinces towards my West.


Not too much to report about the first dozen or so turns. Main disappointment came from the first three province searches with my Pretender all striking out site wise. Although I did get lucky with finding an Enchantment 30 site a bit later. But as the game unfolded, this province was to prove to be in a real hot-zone, which meant I never got a chance to fort it to take advantage of it. I also found all my neighbours, and witnessed Utgard doing a rush job on Abysia. Indeed, had Utgard come straight for me instead of Abysia, I doubt I would have stood much chance in holding them off. So guess I had a lucky break here when Utgard did their usual eeny-meeny-miny-moe on turn 2 with regards which VP marked capital to bee-line towards.

My checking account after the expansion phase left my balance looking reasonably ok, apart from the major drawback of having a really strung out empire. As besides a clump of provinces to the South of my capital, all the other provinces I grabbed were in a flat line leading West. Which I had no doubt would be impossible to defend logistic wise if anyone apart from my Southern neighbours attacked me. Heck, I would even struggle to reclaim them if the multi-coloured sock wearing Baa-Baas paid me a visit. So while my province count was looking healthy on the surface, in reality it was suffering from a lot of deep rooted afflictions.


So with expansion over, and with having built forts on the only two secure provinces I had that allowed 'good' forts, it was time to look for opportunities at the expense of others.

My scouts had brought home a lot of info by this time, and had learnt of wars between Utgard-Pangaea. Mictlan-Gath. Jomon-Pythium. Atlantis-Everyone. I really wanted to attack Utgard at this stage, but knew it could be a bit of a struggle given their typical giant nation bless without the necessary spells (Destruction mainly). But a huge collection of pathless Magister's was really slowing my research down badly. Although they would give me good unrest causing options once a war did kick off.

In the end I settled on attacking Caelum to my South, since they were occupying themselves to their South by sticking their nose into the Ulm-Atlantis war. Also thought it'd be a good idea to get rid of Caelum sooner rather than later, since they could prove to be the nemesis to my Flaming Arrow's mid-game once they had Storm and/or Arrow Fend researched. With hindsight I should have attacked Utgard, but everyone knows hindsight wins every game, so no point dwelling on this.

In the turns leading up to my war with Caelum, I had started stockpiling a load of gold. Think I had about 3k by the time the fighting started. This was not so much because I had nothing to spend gold on, and more because I was refusing to build those crappy forts I mentioned earlier, and I was eyeing some of Caelum's provinces as nice future Fort sites. So thought it'd be good to have the gold to fort them instantly at hand the moment I secured them. The first two turns of the Caelum war went precisely as planned, as I found little resistance against my mass Communion + Defender/Longbow armies, due entirely to Caelum's main force being on war duties far from home. But a dark cloud was looming on the immediate horizon in the form of a giant-shaped twister.


Now, for the first time in my RAND game experience, I actually witnessed a war between two nations coming to a complete halt. And as anyone who has played in a few RAND games will know, this is a pretty rare occurrence, since with no diplomacy to ask for peace, you usually have to keep fighting your enemy(s) until you win or lose. And it was the sudden stop to the Utgard-Pangaea war that caused all my plans to be turned on their heads when Utgard attacked me the very turn after I attacked Caelum. Found this a real curve-ball to deal with, as Utgard-Pangaea had been squabbling over the Abysia capital for a good dozen turns beforehand, and I didn't expect a winner to be found between them anytime soon. And the prospect of them suddenly embracing for kisses in a loving peace hug didn't enter my head for even a moment.


But this sudden turn of events left me facing the stark reality that my plans of being the minnow hunter getting turned against me, as with blessed giants now knocking on my door, the odds were looking good that it would be Man and not Caelum who would be the little fish heading for the catfood factory.

So from having no wars two turns ago, I suddenly found myself in two of them. With the main problem, besides the usual ones associated with fighting on two fronts, being a huge logistical one given my map-move 1 armies, and the large distance between the Caelum and Utgard battle zones. Plus the temporary problem of having absolutely all my forces sitting on the Caelum capital. Not because I needed all my forces to win the battles against Caelum, but because I wanted to get Caelum's huge 700 defence capital breached before they got any key anti-Man research done. Which would be a tall order given Caelum flying advantage during sieges.

So with this sudden emergence of a new war against a powerful enemy, I needed to come up with a plan quick, else find myself on the losing backfoot on both fronts........


This is probably a good as time as any to end Part 1 of this AAR. Part 2 at some point soon I hope....

[Maerlande]

Nice job. I look forward to more since all your action occured in a part of the map I paid little attention to beyond scouts.