Redwich - a dramatic game (in progress)

[Bananadine]

Special settings

Turns will start out quick and gradually become slowish (for the sake of busy people like me)
CBM will be in use
Score graphs will be off
Map will be random and will wrap (corners are lame!)
Victory criterion will be control of most, but not all, of the map (I haven't decided the exact settings for this yet)
The four or so MA mod nations LlamaServer claims are well-balanced will be included... unless they don't work with CBM? Someone please advise me on this! (If nobody advises me, then I'll default to excluding these nations, because I don't know very much about mods.)


Special expectations on players

I am going to say a bunch of things about this, and it'll sound pretty serious--but if you're a new player, please don't be intimidated, because this isn't about player ability. It's solely about attitude. Here is my expectation: Always try to win, and never quit.

During the several multiplayer games I've been through, I've noticed that it's pretty ordinary for a player to behave as if the following were true:
1. He is the only important person in the game. So if he isn't having fun, then he should quit.
2. His part of the map is the only one that really matters. So if some vast power is crushing all its neighbors on the other side of the world, then he should ignore it, and fight with his own neighbors.
3. The game is the only one he'll ever play. So if his nation declines until it's very likely to lose, then he should quit, because he has no need to learn more about Dominions.
4. Winning many battles is the best goal to strive for. So it's bad when someone else fights him and wins.

I don't point this out to complain about these people, or to make fun of them. I'm just illustrating what I don't want in a fellow player, or in a game. I don't play in order to feel like I'm winning--winning isn't any more fun for me than losing, generally. I play for the drama and challenge of the entire game. So I want the people who play with me to keep trying to win, no matter what--not because winning is the most important thing, but because that is how drama and challenge are maximized. The AI is a weaker and more predictable opponent than most of us players are, and it's disappointing for every pivotal battle to bring about the total collapse of the loser's government. Conversely, it's interesting and fun to deal with a wily human whose dwindling but still powerful army has been trapped in a corner.

If you join this game, then I expect you to keep trying, always. If you start to win, then enjoy it, but only one person can win, so if you start to lose, then enjoy that too--or at least act like you're enjoying it, and try to make a comeback. I don't know how likely comebacks are in Dominions 3, but they're possible, and you'll never learn to make them if you don't try. Regardless, if you can't see yourself playing to the death, then please err on the side of not joining my game. (Remember, too, that your turns will generally be quickest when your nation is dying!)

I think that the only player for whom quitting before total destruction makes sense is the second-to-last one left. When you're almost gone and there's nobody left to save you, the game becomes silly. I'll try to set the victory conditions so that no one has to think about this. On the other hand, if your enemy is defeating you, but your enemy's enemy is still around, then ask for help! Or if you see someone else being defeated by your rival, then don't just sit there and ignore it--not without at least thinking it through, anyway. Defend the dying nation, or help them with some appropriate magic items and long-distance spells... or attack them yourself, to prevent your rival from gaining too much from their destruction! And, of course, SEND OUT SCOUTS. Score graphs are off, so you'll need them. You can't properly try to win, unless you have an idea of what each of your rivals is doing!

Among strategic ideas, these are pretty basic; and anybody who's very interested in the game, and moderately experienced at it, will already have thought of them. I'm not trying to give ideal strategic advice here; I'm only moderately experienced myself. (If your strategy can beat the one I'm promoting, then please come in and use it--I'll be glad to learn!) What I'm saying is that I want everyone to act as if they're very interested in the game. If you like the sound of this, then join! If you can't see yourself acting that way, continuously, for months on end, then please do not join.

I've made a big deal out of this, but it's not really complicated or difficult, I think. Just keep trying to win, and never quit. It's simple! But again, we are gonna be playing together for months. If you're the kind of person that I want to play with, then you can probably read ten paragraphs without serious pain!

IF YOU DO NOT MEET MY EXPECTATION: Then I'll... do basically nothing. I mean this is a game, I can't punish anybody and wouldn't want to anyway. I think it would be cool to build a list of people who like playing the way I do! So I'll remember how you act. That's all.

One additional, semi-related expectation: If I send you a private message regarding game administration, you will answer it within a couple of days, unless something really unusual is going on in your personal life. I will kick out people who don't answer such messages! (If I or anybody else sends a message regarding in-game diplomacy, then of course you can ignore it or reply or anything really.) So please keep your forum account hooked up to an e-mail address you check at least every couple of days! Subscribing to this thread would also be good.

The nation I want to play as:

Vanheim. :)

(I'll look silly if I say all this stuff and then wash out early! But I don't mind looking silly.)

Edit:
Players so far:
Arga Dis - Mithras (was temporarily Alpine Joe)
Bandar Log - Raiel
Eriu - Squirrelloid (was temporarily Iainuki)
Ogre Kingdoms - BandarLover (defeated as AI)
Skaven - Lavaere (defeated)
T'ien Ch'i - Maerlande (was secretperson)
Vanheim - Bananadine (defeated)

[Lavaere]

Yay MOD Nations, think I could join as Skaven. Been wanting to try them for ages in a MP game

[Wokeye]

I'd play if score graphs are turned on... was not impressed with this option after playing a few graphs off for a games.

[Alpine Joe]

If mod nations are in i'd give Arga Dis a go.

[Raiel]

Sounds cool, and I'd like to play, but I'm a noob that just joined 2 games over the last 3 weeks... Since I don't know what end-game is really like in a MP game, I'm wondering if this would be too much.

What research difficulty will be used? Other settings?

I'd tentatively take Bandar Log. (And, yes, I realize tentative isn't what you're looking for, but I don't know all the settings yet.) ;)

[secretperson]

I think I am interested in joining, although I must confess I don't know much about those mod nations and am a little unsure how balanced they are.

I'd like to play as T'ien Ch'i.

[rdonj]

They're not so bad balance-wise. None of them fit into the clearly top tier category, and some are probably on the lower edge of average. So I wouldn't worry.

[Alpine Joe]

Actually another mod nation only game is popping up so count me out of this one.

Sorry but I really want to play Arga dis but only want to play a certain number of games at a time :)

[Bananadine]

People are clearly interested in mod nations but no one has advised me on whether they'll work with CBM. Thus I have made a query myself, in the mods forum. Early replies suggest the combination will probably work, but it's not certain yet.

Sounds cool, and I'd like to play, but I'm a noob that just joined 2 games over the last 3 weeks... Since I don't know what end-game is really like in a MP game, I'm wondering if this would be too much.

What research difficulty will be used? Other settings?

I'd tentatively take Bandar Log. (And, yes, I realize tentative isn't what you're looking for, but I don't know all the settings yet.) ;)

Settings will generally be what's chosen by default here: http://www.llamaserver.net/createGame.cgi
(That, in turn, will generally be what's chosen by default in the Game Settings dialog in Dominions 3 itself.) The exceptions, of course, are the specific settings I've already mentioned. Also I might put 15 in the hall of fame instead of 10, because heroes entertain me. But that's not a very big deal.

You are welcome to be uncertain about administrative matters; those are outside the game. If you have any more questions about those, please ask. You are also welcome to be uncertain about whether you're choosing the right nation, or whether you're playing well, etc.--just honestly think and observe and try to win, no matter what, and any questions you have about the quality of your choices will be answered.

No one so far has given much acknowledgement of my request for player commitment! Well, I didn't ask for one. Maybe I will ask a little later, just before the game starts. Months, people, months! :)

[Bananadine]

Yeah it looks like CBM works with those nations, with maybe one tiny exception that I may have to iron out with some mod combiner script Llamabeast made. So, those four nations (Arga Dis, Skavenblight, Tomb Kings, and Ogre Kingdoms) are in.

[llamabeast]

If you want a hand with making the combined mod, let me know. It's very easy for me to run my script (very easy for you too if you have linux or, I think, a mac, but just slightly faffy if you have windows).

[Bananadine]

Looks like we've got four people so far. That's enough for a game, but a few more would be nice. I fear my unusual settings and/or expectations are putting people off! Well, we'll wait and see what happens.

Curious about this matter of committing to play well, I have started a discussion on the subject: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=700238
Apparently it's an old debate! Ahh why can't Dominions 3 be as popular as Starcraft. If it were I wouldn't have to struggle to find other people committed to improvement!

[Mithras]

Since Arga Dis has just been vacated I'd like to take it up again. Seems to match the mood of this game nicely. I promise to fight tooth and claw until my last fortress is taken and my armies are scattered around my few remaining provinces. Then I'll give up.

[Bananadine]

Since Arga Dis has just been vacated I'd like to take it up again. Seems to match the mood of this game nicely. I promise to fight tooth and claw until my last fortress is taken and my armies are scattered around my few remaining provinces. Then I'll give up.

Well, that's the spirit I'm looking for! But the expectation was that no one gives up, ever. Must we start making exceptions?

Then again, it would be absurdly picky of me to put the screws to the one person so far who's explicitly made any sort of commitment!

Getting serious about games. What a complicated matter it is! :)

[Raiel]

...
No one so far has given much acknowledgement of my request for player commitment! Well, I didn't ask for one. Maybe I will ask a little later, just before the game starts. Months, people, months! :)

I would think that if someone has volunteered to play this game, then they've already given you your answer. :)

Bandar Log sounds good with those settings.

[Bananadine]

I would think that if someone has volunteered to play this game, then they've already given you your answer. :)

One never knows, with random dudes from the Internet! You know what they say: When you assume, you make an assu of m and e.

(An assu is a demon, somewhat similar to a tengu.)

[llamabeast]

When you assume, you make an assu of m and e.

That's very profound!

[secretperson]

It would be nice if someone could make a list of the players and nations who have joined thus far. I would do it myself now, but I need to go shortly for a few hours. I can do it later if no one does it by the time I am back.

[Bananadine]

I put the list into the first post.

[BandarLover]

I'm thinking I would like to play as Sombre's Ogre Kingdom mod.

I've no problems fighting to the death since that is what I generally end up doing anyways.

Any deadline on when this game will get started or how many more peeps may join?

[Bananadine]

Not really. I think I'll close recruitment tomorrow morning.

[secretperson]

A few questions-

Will there be a single mod to combine the needed mods? If so, where can I get it?

Will this be hosted on llamaserver?


I'm interested to see how this plays out.

[Squirrelloid]

Count me in as Eriu, I seem to have time for another game.

[Bananadine]

Yes, the game will be on LlamaServer. I intend to use the versions of these mods that are already on LlamaServer.

I think there would only be a potential, tiny problem with mod incompatibility if somebody picked Tomb Kings... that is to say, Gregstrom, who recently compiled a table of all the ID numbers used by mods, indicates that Tomb Kings and CBM illegally share one weapon ID. However, anecdotal evidence suggests that Tomb Kings actually works fine with CBM...? I don't know. The upshot is that I might make a combined mod if somebody picks Tomb Kings. In that case, I'll announce the location of the mod here in this thread.

This shouldn't discourage anybody from picking Tomb Kings.

[Gregstrom]

I think there would only be a potential, tiny problem with mod incompatibility if somebody picked Tomb Kings... that is to say, Gregstrom, who recently compiled a table of all the ID numbers used by mods, indicates that Tomb Kings and CBM illegally share one weapon ID. However, anecdotal evidence suggests that Tomb Kings actually works fine with CBM...?

I've confirmed this by checking both mods - CBM 1.5 has weapon#708 as a Rusted Short Sword, and Tomb Kings has #708 as the Asp Bow. My guess is that, depending on the order the mods are loaded in, either Asp Archers will have their bows replaced with swords or Ermor's Longdead Legionnaires will start shooting Asp Arrows.

Edit: I've done a quick look, and even with Tomb Kings thrown into the mix the only conflict is weapon#708. That's an easy fix to the mod - just renumber Asp Bows to 699 and you'll be fine.

[Bananadine]

Was busy today. I now plan to get on the map stuff tomorrow morning.

[Bananadine]

The game is up. Please download the map and all mods you don't already have, and submit your pretenders.

Make sure the mods are all active as you design a pretender!

The map: http://www.dom3minions.com/RandomMaps/Tiny_Wrapped/Tiny_012.zip
CBM 1.5: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=690799&postcount=1
Skavenblight 1.00: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=523975&postcount=1
Arga Dis 1.35: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=516929&postcount=1
Ogre Kingdoms 0.7: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=532244&postcount=1

[Bananadine]

If you've not installed mods or maps or used LlamaServer before, and you don't know what to do, just ask.

[Bananadine]

Another point about not giving up: A couple of times I've seen people announce to everybody that their bad position has made it too hard for them to win--even though, from the outside, they looked fine to me. Score graphs are off, and you don't have to tell anybody how badly or how well you're doing. Bluffing is an option. Control your appearance!

[Squirrelloid]

Another point about not giving up: A couple of times I've seen people announce to everybody that their bad position has made it too hard for them to win--even though, from the outside, they looked fine to me. Score graphs are off, and you don't have to tell anybody how badly or how well you're doing. Bluffing is an option. Control your appearance!

Generally I'd agree, but your pretender dying turn 1 when he's in the Hall of Fame is impossible to miss, so there's no point hiding it. (eg, me in Nox).

Highly unlikely to occur (to me) in this game given the remarkably different demands on pretender design for Eriu.

Edit: also, emphasizing your poor position is a diplomatic bargaining chip - and with graphs off one could potentially misrepresent how well they're doing for diplomatic reasons... (Not that I would ever be one to do such a thing...).

Hmmm.. now i need to develop a strategy which hinges on killing my pretender in the first 6 months for diplomatic leverage...

[secretperson]

I should have my pretender submitted within the next day or two; It's a little busy for me until the weekend.

[Bananadine]

Llamabeast confirms that, due to a limitation of the Dominions program, the LlamaServer doesn't allow all the victory condition types that the game does. So I went with victory points, rather than an absolute count of provinces that you'd need to conquer (which had been my preference). I put in lots of victory point provinces! I don't think that will change the game very much, but if it does... then we will experience the change. :)

[Squirrelloid]

All good - just so long as i know what i'm fighting for =)

[Lavaere]

Your fighting for peace of mind

[Squirrelloid]

fair warning:

I will choose a character for my nation's ruler(s) and conduct my diplomacy in character.

I will start wars for all the right reasons (namely, if you piss off my ruler :D). (This doesn't mean I won't also start wars for more sensible reasons...)

I'm not sure how much of a nice guy or a bastard Eriu's leader is going to be. I wouldn't tell you even if I knew yet. You'll just have to figure it out the old fashioned way. :evil:

[Bananadine]

Hmm... LlamaServer no longer seems to report the exact victory conditions. (It did before the game started.) I'm fairly (but not completely) sure I told it that, to win, you have to have 15 of 21 points. I definitely told it to place victory points in capitals.

[Bananadine]

Oh, the game program reports this number. It is indeed 15.

[Mithras]

Since someone else has given a wanring that they'll roleplay in diplomacy, consider my warning given. Might write up a few little things too if the mood strikes me.

Have a good game everyone.

[BandarLover]

The status page says I am waiting to turn in my turn, but I've not received my turn file for turn 5 yet.

[Squirrelloid]

BandarLover: welcome to Llamaserver hiccuping. Tell it to resend your turn and it should comply.

[BandarLover]

Would I simply type 'resend turn' in the subject header then? I've no actual experience with llamaserver run games before these last 2 I have joined.

[Squirrelloid]

Go to www.llamaserver.net. Find the game (Redwich) in the list. Click on it and find "Request Turn Resend" as an option at the bottom. Click on that and it'll take you to a selectable list of nations. Choose your nation and click 'Resend Turn'. Wait a few minutes. Tada.

[BandarLover]

thank you Squirrelloid :D

[Squirrelloid]

*gets confused by new banners*

*PMs wrong person*

Apparently I need to play more Warhammer or something...

[Lavaere]

He stood stearing out the tower window over the once great city, but that was the past. He had allowed an invasion by the Skaven and the inslavement of its people. Even he himself was little more then a slave to his Skaven masters.

Traitor, the Great Deciever, Merchant of Death, all names that the people now called him. And then there were the Skaven themselves, Skar Fang. They had given him the name before chaining him high in his tower to watch over his people. And work his wonders now for his new masters.

Returning to his attention to his works he noticed the seering globe begin to cloud. Sitting before it he watched until they parted and he saw Gutter Runners. Then the images shifted again to a golden-haired man. Again the images shifted to a battlefield strewn with bodies, men and skaven alike. Then everything became cloudy again before clearing. The Seer Globe once again nothing more the a glass ball.

[Squirrelloid]

Ugg... continuing my terrible luck at getting totally screwed by random events in virtually every game I'm playing. I'm not going to specify what it was, but lets just say that it was the single worst possible event I could have gotten and its probably going to be the thing that ultimately causes my demise.

Whoever thinks Order 3 + Misfortune 2 is a good idea is a moron. Stuff like this is way too crippling, and seems to happen to me every time I even start to tip the scales towards misfortune. (Hell, I've gotten totally screwed by a random event on turn 6 with Lk 3, but misfortune is like asking for it). Last time I listen to conventional forum advice.

[Bananadine]

Edit: also, emphasizing your poor position is a diplomatic bargaining chip - and with graphs off one could potentially misrepresent how well they're doing for diplomatic reasons... (Not that I would ever be one to do such a thing...).

Hmmm.. now i need to develop a strategy which hinges on killing my pretender in the first 6 months for diplomatic leverage...

Scouts will be along to assess just what your strategy is, and how well it is likely to pay off!

[BandarLover]

I'll be out of town until Wednesday.

[Squirrelloid]

I'm going to be out of town from tomorrow (err..... today) evening through next monday. I'd love if the game could be delayed, but if people want I can try to find a substitute.

If I can manage to play while i'm out of town i'll let you know, but there is absolutely no way I can play next weekend.

I'll also be gone some time in august, but i have a substitute already lined up for that. (He won't be available this next week for reasons similar to my absence).

For general sanity purposes, we might want to consider increasing the time per turn more generally - this past weekend i know i had some turns i felt a little rushed on.

[Bananadine]

That would be a serious delay! But not a huge one. I'd prefer not to wait that long. But do you think it would hurt your nation much to use a (properly instructed) substitute? If so, or if you just couldn't find a substitute, then we could delay. It sounds like you won't know for sure whether you can play while you're out of town, until the time actually comes?

[Squirrelloid]

That would be a serious delay! But not a huge one. I'd prefer not to wait that long. But do you think it would hurt your nation much to use a (properly instructed) substitute? If so, or if you just couldn't find a substitute, then we could delay. It sounds like you won't know for sure whether you can play while you're out of town, until the time actually comes?

Not sure about how much time I'll have or whether the computer I'll have access to will be able to handle the game.

A properly instructed substitute could probably do ok. The trick would be properly instructing.

[Bananadine]

Okay. Well, find one if you want to and can--or tell me to try to find one for you, if you want to do that (but I expect you wouldn't). Otherwise I'll delay.

What is the earliest time (including time zone reference) when you would certainly be free to take a turn on Monday? (A variance of several hours after a delay of several days isn't a big deal, of course, but those of us who occasionally reload the game status page on LlamaServer would feel better having an exact time to wait for.)

[Squirrelloid]

ok, i have a sub up through thursday. Do I PM you his e-mail address so you can change where the turn is sent?

He also won't be available friday - sunday, and possibly monday. But that's less of a delay than it would have been otherwise.

I'll be driving like all day monday, so if the turn was due like midnight i'd appreciate it. (US central timezone, not sure what that is in GMT offhand, or even which day, probably into tuesday)

[Bananadine]

Yes, send me that e-mail address. Also you'll have to tell me when you return--you may as well send your own e-mail address now.

Thanks for the info! I'll delay as needed.

[Bananadine]

Anyhoo I think this is the first game I've been in that made it this far without any stales. CAN WE KEEP IT UP

[Mithras]

Sorry I just found out I'll be gone from sunday through tuesday (at least unitl afternoon time GMT) After the recent delays requested I feel guilty about asking it to be extended. If I indeed have to stale I'll try to stale in a non unbalancing way. Sorry about that.

[Bananadine]

Well, if you take a turn shortly before leaving, it wouldn't require much delay to keep you from staling.

[Bananadine]

Presently fussing over Squirrelloid substitution/delay details. Turn deadline is subject to change.

[secretperson]

T'ien Ch'i is able to forge various items that will be available for trade. (Forge hammers, earth boots, nature boosters, and various other goodies) Please PM me if you are interested. Prices will be simply the standard gem cost.

We are also looking to acquire some death and/or nature gems. Gems offering to trade to acquire these include astral, air, and water. Again please PM me if interested.

[Bananadine]

Iainuki will be Eriu while Squirrelloid is busy, through early August. Diplomacy for Eriu should be sent to him.

[Bananadine]

There's no escaping Glaisne!

[BandarLover]

Possible bug? My Ogre Butchers no longer have their national blood battle spells available to cast. And my gem/slave producing capital sites are all blank. And my sacreds are missing, along with my recruitable giant. Thoughts?

[Bananadine]

Have you stopped getting the gems and slaves from those sites?

[Bananadine]

Anyway I don't know anything about this but it sounds like it might be related to conflicts between entities defined by the mod and entities defined by the main game or by other mods. That's totally speculation on my part, but it's good enough to warrant a question in another thread, so I'll go ask that question.

It could also be a bug in the Dominions program, of course.

[Bananadine]

I know it's possible, albeit not totally reliable, to fix errors that occur during turn hosting by redoing a turn. Clearly, this problem arose between one turn and the next... but it doesn't sound like something that would be fixed so easily. Not that redoing a turn is entirely easy.

I can't think of any other potential fixes off the top of my head. But I'll go ask.

[Bananadine]

Oh, incidentally--Mithras said he's gonna be out again, until Saturday or so, and this might give me an excuse to delay for him. (He told me not to delay for him, but I kinda want to do it anyway, since we've done so well with attendance and important things are happening and all.) So don't feel too pressured to take your turn right away, with your crippled ogres.

On the other hand, if no fix is found, you'll end up having to play out the rest of the game with crippled ogres! Hmm.

[BandarLover]

well, I know why it happened now. Sombre released an update to the Ogre Kingdom and I DL'd it to check it out in an SP game. I'm not use to playing MP games and it just slipped my mind. So essentially, it's like playing after an update to Dom 3. I shoulda left the update alone until this game was over, so my bad.

[Gregstrom]

What you can do is open the DM file for v0.8, then change the #modname entry near the start of the file. If you do that, Dominions won't be able to confuse the mods. You might also want to change the filename of the v0.8 dm file, come to think of it.

[Bananadine]

Okay, well, I'm still going to delay.

Have you worked things out, BandarLover?

If you still want to play around with the newer version, you could just copy your whole Dominions directory and do it in the copy.

[Bananadine]

(Or, you know, what Gregstrom said.)

[Gregstrom]

If you have the 0.8 dm file present under a different filename, you'll be fine. It turns out changing the #modname entry has no effect. The important thing is reinstalling the v0.7 mod.

[BandarLover]

I don't have v.07 of Ogre Kingdoms or I would reinstall it. I'll go ahead play with what I got and try not to make bone headed mistakes like this again in the future :D

Sombre says the spells should go back to normal next turn so I'll just go with that.

[Gregstrom]

Here - you'll only need the .dm file, I think. Drop it in your mods folder and see if that helps.

[Bananadine]

Yes, wouldn't it be safest to use the one LlamaServer is using (that being .7)? The new one might be better and all, but I assume that we can't genuinely switch from one to the other without updating the server somehow. And the server does not provide that option.

Did you submit a turn with version .8? If not, then I don't know why you'd have to wait a whole turn to get your spells back. Because in that case, the version conflict would never have reached the server--it would still all be on your end, and if you were to install .7 and delete your .2h file, it would go away entirely. And if you did submit a .2h with .8, but that turn hasn't hosted yet, then surely you could switch back to .7 and submit a new .2h, so as to prevent the game program from ever finding out about the change. I prefer that you do as much as possible to keep corruption out of our game! But I still don't understand the details of these mod conflicts the way Gregstrom, Sombre, et al do so if what I'm saying doesn't make sense then please ignore it. :)

Anyway, it sounds like the problem is on its way out, one way or another.

[Gregstrom]

The whole conflict thing does get a bit arcane :)

You can submit a turn using 0.8 if you absolutely have to - it's similar enough to 0.7 that you can issue orders llamaserver will understand. However, while you're using 0.8 and llamaserver isn't, you won't get access to giants at any time and I don't think you'll get your spells back either. It is possible to alter mods on llamaserver mid-game (just ask llamabeast nicely, and have a good reason for doing so), but in this case I think doing so would break your game for good.

[BandarLover]

No need. I used the link you provided for ver .07 so I should be good now.

Thank you Gregstrom!!

[Gregstrom]

np. Glad to be of assistance :D

[Raiel]

I'm on the road and won't be able to submit a turn before Monday morning; please delay the hosting of Turn 27 till 19:00 GMT on the 10th if turn 26 hosts between now and then.

[BandarLover]

Want to trade death gems for supply providing items.ie, Never ending Wine bag, Broth Cauldron, Summer sword etc. PM with your price, I have 50 death gems I'm willing to barter with.

[Bananadine]

Lavaere has quit, in defiance of my stated expectation.

[secretperson]

I need to get a message to Eriu. Who is playing Eriu currently? I noticed there was a sub listed on the first page, but I am unsure if he is still playing, or if the original player is back.

[Lavaere]

so much as quit, but gave way for the what was coming. 2 regions and little of anything ain't a good fight. and I didn't feel like fighting to the death this time

[Bananadine]

Eriu is still Iainuki.

[Bananadine]

(Iainuki can definitely be reached via e-mail: the aforementioned nickname @gmail.com. Subs get special rules I guess!)

[secretperson]

(Iainuki can definitely be reached via e-mail: the aforementioned nickname @gmail.com. Subs get special rules I guess!)

Thanks, Bananadine. Heh, looks like I sent a lengthy message to the wrong person then. :doh: I sent one in game, but I was hoping to get it to him before the turn hosted. Oh well.

[Bananadine]

Hope I didn't mess you up. Oh well, international communications in this game are always a hassle....

[Squirrelloid]

I am now back, btw. I believe i sent you my e-mail address already bananadine, but if not you can PM me to request it. Iainuki is aware of my return. (No need for a delay, i'm sure the current submitted turn is fine).

[Bananadine]

Eriu is now Squirrelloid again.

[Squirrelloid]

The regent having recently stepped down, Danaan, Lord of the Mound and other titles far too numerous to list, invites nations to send him an envoy to converse about the current state of affairs, and may entertain gestures of goodwill and offers of friendship.

The fair folk also wish to make it known that we are most interested in hammers, and would discuss the terms of a fair trade for such items in private. A gift of a hammer would ensure our lasting friendship. Trading for earth gems directly would also be amenable to us.

[Squirrelloid]

Lavaere has quit, in defiance of my stated expectation.

So i'm a little slow...

Lavaere's game is basically over. I can understand why he went AI... sure, he could make things mildly more annoying, but only very mildly...

[Bananadine]

Yes. I'm not saying Lavaere did or did not change the game much. Skavenblight fought valiantly until all was almost certainly lost. A lot of people I've played with would have quit earlier. I agree that Lavaere did well. And it's also true that I want people to play until the absolute end; and that is the expectation I stated before any of you joined. In this case, that expectation was violated.

I think that if every player in every game ever were to quit at the point where Lavaere did, then I would be pretty satisfied. This is the first time I've tried to get people to play either to that point or past it, and I'll surely go about it differently in the future. In this game, I ask everybody to play until the end.

[Squirrelloid]

Does no one wish to speak with the sidhe?

(the Nation which already has a longstanding agreement with me - I obviously know what's up, though you're of course welcome to talk with me anyway)

[BandarLover]

Well played Raiel. Holy crap that was a lot of enslave mind/mind burn/ soul slay castings!! That army was diseased anyways, buncha no good whiny bastards. You're welcome to them...


:D

[Lavaere]

Yes well I try to play until its obvious I can't do anything. If it had been earlier in the game it would been until the complete death.
Anyway thanks, since this and Tourmaline was the first time I've been allowed to play Skaven

[Bananadine]

Hm, my turn didn't come until I requested that it be "resent". Maybe it'll still come later... is anybody else encountering this problem?

[Bananadine]

Annoyance! We have nagot gick feled.

As LlamaServer says, I can roll back the turn, or we can just accept the staling. I could go either way... by default I am inclined to accept it, since that's easier for everyone and seems slightly less risky. But it is certainly possible to redo a turn without also redoing the nagot gick fel error--I've done it once before. But it's probably also possible to redo a turn, only to see another nagot gick fel error.

Speak up if you feel strongly about this.

[Bananadine]

(Oh and speak up soon, because otherwise dudes will start sending in their turns and I will be even less inclined to roll back.)

[Raiel]

I do feel pretty strongly that the turn should be re-hosted. That was a pretty pivitol turn for me in several different ways...

[Bananadine]

Okay I'll roll back then, unless somebody has a strong objection (which seems unlikely). I just told LlamaServer to e-mail everybody about this for me but I haven't gotten my e-mail yet. :(

[Raiel]

I got the message. In NoobVsVets3, the admin (rdonj and Septimus) were able to rehost when this happened using the previously submitted turn files. I've no game admin experience, though, and I don't know how they did it...

[Bananadine]

Huh... I don't know how that could be done without help from llamabeast, and anyway, the message from the server claims that reusing the old files will just reproduce the crash. But communication concerning these problems is murky enough that I will err on the side of asking Septimius about it in a private message, just in case.

[Bananadine]

All right, well I'm not waiting for that. If Septimius has a magical solution it will have to be applied the next time one of our games crashes.

I'm rolling back the turn. Please handle your .2h files appropriately! Do not resend your old .2h files!

[Bananadine]

Oh hm I'm trying a strange new thing (you'll probably get another turn file unexpectedly).

[Bananadine]

WHOA I guess I fixed it?

Apparently after you roll back a turn, LlamaServer will say it's waiting for everybody's moves. And whatever new moves people send in during that time will be used, as you'd expect. But it still keeps the old .2h files in the background, and supplies them for any players who haven't submitted new ones, which is a little weird but the server tells you it does this when you do the roll-back thing.

So you can just roll back and immediately tell it to host the turn again, and it won't actually be certain to crash again, for reasons I don't understand (probably the random number generator produces different values every time so the turn doesn't run the same way?) and yet for some reason people don't just always do this? I don't know. I guess it's fine now though?

[Septimius Severus]

Sorry just now getting your PM. Right, that is how we handled it. A rollback and a force host.

[Squirrelloid]

I'm confused, which turn does the server think it is?

[secretperson]

I received two turn files. Turns 34 and 35. Which one am I supposed to be playing and submitting?

[Bananadine]

I wrote all that stuff about rolling back and moving .2h files, thinking you should play 34--but then at the last moment I discovered the solution Raiel was talking about, and produced a proper 35.

So, play turn 35. That should be the latest one you've received, and the only one of the lot that actually reflects the moves you made on turn 34.

[BandarLover]

A thousand apologies!! I had a pretty big pc problem and just got everything up and going. However, I don't have my copy of Dominions right now but I also know my situation as Ogre Kingdom is pretty bad, if I haven't been eliminated already. Should I post a new thread looking for a replacement or have the admin set me to AI?

[Raiel]

A thousand apologies!! I had a pretty big pc problem and just got everything up and going. However, I don't have my copy of Dominions right now but I also know my situation as Ogre Kingdom is pretty bad, if I haven't been eliminated already. Should I post a new thread looking for a replacement or have the admin set me to AI?

Well, you haven't been eliminated... 900 defence on your capitol will make that a slow proposition. I may actually have to starve your entire force just to get the walls down. It might be a good idea to go AI or find a sub just so turns process more quickly for everyone.

BTW... I did notice and appreciate your compliments earlier; I thought I had acknowledged that post, but it seems I spaced it. Thank you! It was good playing with you.

[Bananadine]

A thousand apologies!! I had a pretty big pc problem and just got everything up and going. However, I don't have my copy of Dominions right now but I also know my situation as Ogre Kingdom is pretty bad, if I haven't been eliminated already. Should I post a new thread looking for a replacement or have the admin set me to AI?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I guess a person could pirate a copy to you? Well a substitute would be nice... but who would want to do that. Maybe you still have a significant chance of recovering somehow? I don't really want you to come out and say whether you do, because part of trying to win is hiding some of your plans, but if we made you AI then it wouldn't matter anymore anyway, since any chance you have now would be squandered by the AI. So I guess I'll leave it up to you. If you want to go to the trouble of taking a copy of the game from me, then I am willing to try to send you one (I am assuming here you still legally own it and will come back into possession of your game disc or whatever at some point). If you want to try to find a substitute then go for it. Otherwise I'll make you an AI. Even the craziest dedication to hardcore play of whatever sort must make the occasional allowance for acts of God (the true god that is--not any of yours).

[BandarLover]

As much as it pains me, I say go ahead and set me to AI. AFAIK, playing with a 'pirated' copy of the game will wreak ten tons of havoc on the game so I'd rather not do that. And honestly, my position is quite horrible so any kind of sub would essentially just be clicking 'End Turn' until Bandar (Raiel) takes my cap. I've almost no income, diseased armies (damn you gluttony!!!) and can only rely on blood summons for new troops.

I'll pm you my nation password so you can set them to AI. I really am sorry for this and desperately wanted to finish out to the bitter (VERY bitter) end.

[Bananadine]

AFAIK, playing with a 'pirated' copy of the game will wreak ten tons of havoc on the game so I'd rather not do that.

Really? How? Do they encode CD keys in .2h files somehow??

Anyway Ogre Kingdoms is AI now.

[BandarLover]

Honestly, I'm not sure Bananadine. I just seem to recall several posts a few years back when people were having issues playing MP games and they admitted they were using a pirated copy and that turned out to be the issue. Thanks for setting me AI and again, very sry to everyone for holding everything up.

[Bananadine]

Thanks for playing!

[Bananadine]

Hm I finished my turn but Gmail is down.

[Squirrelloid]

Send more vandrotts, Vanheim, my PD is hungry =)

[Bananadine]

Understood.

What will you do with your strong new income of fire gems? Let the nations of the world hold a vote.

Vanheim votes that they be transmuted into gold and used to feed the poor of Arga Dis (to the rich of Arga Dis).

[Squirrelloid]

Ummm... yeah, i noticed that. Really not excited by fire gems... even *a lot* of fire gems.

[Squirrelloid]

Hey vanheim, you've got 5 hours. Problems?

[Bananadine]

Nope, just put it off for a while!

[Squirrelloid]

The nation of Eriu is looking to acquire death gems, and is willing to trade earth and fire gems on a 1:1 basis. Please PM with the number of death gems you're willing to trade, if any.

[Squirrelloid]

Bump - trade offer still viable.

Also, if the game is going to be delayed, could that fact be announced in the game thread? I just noticed the turn wasn't due till the 14th...

[Bananadine]

I didn't delay just this turn--I increased the hosting interval. My turns take two hours now and I am busy!

Others are free to request interval increases too, though I have the impression that most people prefer lower ones than I do. I don't plan to increase the interval again for a long while--not for my own sake, anyway.

Of course we still won't always wait through the whole interval. You may place some hope in quickhost....

[Squirrelloid]

Apparently my total inability to take a single Van fortress still qualifies me as becoming too powerful. Hilarious. I might ask the nations of the world to do some better scouting - my 'power', such as it is, lies mostly in being annoying. And make no mistake, if you intend to invade me know that you will capture nothing but savaged and pillaged land that I will do my best to reduce to ashes. At the same time, my forces will do their best to harass you guerilla style before disappearing again and reappearing elsewhere. To attack Eriu is to fight a continuous war which ultimately you cannot win, and which will merely sap your resources and leave your nation a similarly burnt-out husk. Just ask Vanheim.

On the other hand, the nations of the world might be interested in knowing that TC has achieved level 9 alteration, and is running around with at least one mage capable of casting army of gold. Eriu has nowhere near that kind of research prowess. Instead, Eriu is a wartorn realm that has never been allowed the chance to develop in peace, ruling tribes of foreigners we will have no qualms about putting to the sword in front of ravenous invaders. So please, invade us. Victory, should it present itself to you, will be pyrrhic indeed.

Edit:
I am of course implying that TC is becoming too powerful, rather than Eriu, as research is far more valuable than gold at this point.

I should also provide some incentives i suppose. I am offering a 50e bounty to the first nation who is not at war with me and captures a TC fortress. Obviously, TC need not apply. Anyone who has declared war or the intention to war, but not acted on this threat, is eligible to rescind their declaration and become eligible for the 50e prize.

[Bananadine]

Vanheim cordially invites the mages of Eriu to dedicate themselves fully to research.

[Squirrelloid]

Vanheim cordially invites the mages of Eriu to dedicate themselves fully to research.

I am unconvinced there are terms of peace that could be agreed upon by both sides at this point in our conflict. Otherwise I might be making such an offer.

[secretperson]

Apparently my total inability to take a single Van fortress still qualifies me as becoming too powerful. Hilarious. I might ask the nations of the world to do some better scouting - my 'power', such as it is, lies mostly in being annoying. And make no mistake, if you intend to invade me know that you will capture nothing but savaged and pillaged land that I will do my best to reduce to ashes. At the same time, my forces will do their best to harass you guerilla style before disappearing again and reappearing elsewhere. To attack Eriu is to fight a continuous war which ultimately you cannot win, and which will merely sap your resources and leave your nation a similarly burnt-out husk. Just ask Vanheim.

On the other hand, the nations of the world might be interested in knowing that TC has achieved level 9 alteration, and is running around with at least one mage capable of casting army of gold. Eriu has nowhere near that kind of research prowess. Instead, Eriu is a wartorn realm that has never been allowed the chance to develop in peace, ruling tribes of foreigners we will have no qualms about putting to the sword in front of ravenous invaders. So please, invade us. Victory, should it present itself to you, will be pyrrhic indeed.

Edit:
I am of course implying that TC is becoming too powerful, rather than Eriu, as research is far more valuable than gold at this point.

I should also provide some incentives i suppose. I am offering a 50e bounty to the first nation who is not at war with me and captures a TC fortress. Obviously, TC need not apply. Anyone who has declared war or the intention to war, but not acted on this threat, is eligible to rescind their declaration and become eligible for the 50e prize.

The balance of power among the nations is difficult to assess. While statements outlining some of the strengths of T'ien Ch'i are true, its weaknesses are underplayed as well as Eriu's advantages. Similar strength can be found in Bandar Log and likely Arga Dis. I imagine that Vanheim has some as well.

I would like to list some advantages I perceive that Eriu has over all the nations.

-2 Globals currently up (Mother oak has been up for a while)
-Vast amounts of territory
-Very large gem income (assumed from the territory and Mother Oak as well as Skaven's capital gem income)
-Amazing recruitable thug chassis
-Atleast 3 hammers pumping out items to kit out these thugs (I have personally supplied 2 of these)


I'd rather not delve too deeply into my nation's weaknesses as I may soon find other enemies exploiting them, but consider the following:

-T'ien Ch'i has likely the least amount of territory (this is easily verifiable)
-T'ien Ch'i has no good recruitable thugs
-T'ien Ch'i's gem income in some areas is severely lacking; I have been extremely unlucky with some types of gems.

[Squirrelloid]

TC might do well to remember that as this game is playing with non-unique gem generators, territory is a poor rating of power. The real rating of power is how many bloodstones, fever fetishes, and clams a nation has. And Eriu is willing to disclose that our water gem income is rather anemic, a gem type that is important in such a game setting. Especially as we have other valuable uses for water gems besides. We also have not engaged in the barbaric practice of hunting blood slaves, nor are we known for our fire mages. As such, Eriu can virtually guarantee we are *not* winning this game and are not a power to be reckoned with.

And taking the Skaven capitol took *3 years* despite having effectively won the war year 1. Time during which resources that might have gone to site searching and indie expansion were wasted trying to tear the rat's walls down. That particular gem income was dearly bought.

Given the national magic paths of their mages and summons (as both are well suited to clamming), Eriu rather imagines TC and BL to be competing for that title - perhaps they should fight each other? Especially TC since they've mostly turtled behind strong castle walls and sat out of any real warfare - plenty of time to dedicate their cash to research, and their gems to gem generators.

On globals: Mother Oak is a weak gem generator, nothing compared to Earth Blood Seep owned by Vanheim. And you're seriously going to hold Fata Morgana against us? Its perhaps the worst global in the game, bar none. It was merely convenient to cast.

Edit: It probably shouldn't even need pointing out that Eriu is exceptionally weak in the endgame, whereas BL is a strong end game power and TC is no slouch. And as a seemingly strong blood nation I imagine Arga Dis is pretty good too. My neutralizing (not defeating, just neutralizing) of Vanheim should be seen as a public service since they're arbitrarily better later compared to Eriu.

[Calahan]

....And you're seriously going to hold Fata Morgana against us? Its perhaps the worst global in the game, bar none.
You've obviously never cast Ghost Ship Armada then :)

[Bananadine]

The real rating of power is how many bloodstones, fever fetishes, and clams a nation has.

What if no one has any? Power is left unmeasurable!

[Mithras]

Arga Dis would like to declare their abject nuetrality. We are to weak to make a differance on any offensive war and as such rescind any promises to take any castles. Also, in the interest of peace it should eb remembered that while without great offensive copacity we can still make any invasion a bloody affair.

[Bananadine]

Whoops forgot my turn. Well, there's still time.

[secretperson]

I'm having trouble with llamaserver; it seems to not be receiving my 2h file for turn 56. Anyone experiencing the same problem?

[Bananadine]

Yes. Note:

"Last updated at 10:55 GMT on Tuesday October 20th
Current time: 22:56 GMT"

But it seems to have taken our turns.

(I mean, it took your turn for Redwich, and my turn for another game--I haven't submitted my turn for Redwich yet.)

[Bananadine]

Thread about LlamaServer being down: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44190

[Bananadine]

It's up again so if you don't have your turn then tell LlamaServer to resend it!

[Bananadine]

Hm I thought the turn was due Sunday? Maybe this is the delay that llamabeast added after the server's troubles. Oh well, I'm taking my turn tomorrow morning probably.

[Bananadine]

Wait, I guess that's today morning (important distinction everybody check your watches quickly now quickly)

[Bananadine]

Woo a power outage at a bad time! I almost had to call long-distance to get somebody to delay the turn.

[Bananadine]

LlamaServer down for fourteen hours now? Hmmmmmmm well it's pretty good about picking things up properly when it awakens... I guess Bandar Log's turn submission (supposing it has occurred) is probably gonna be okay. And anyway, anything I tried to do about it would also fail to take effect until the server awakened.

[Bananadine]

Arga Dis would probably prefer not to stale. :(

unscheduled Life Day delay for Arga Dis

[Bananadine]

Problem resolved!

[Bananadine]

New problem (or possibly offshoot of prior problem): Mithras needs to send in a computer for repairs and won't be able to play for something like a couple of weeks. That's pretty long in Dominions time (though not as long in a 3-day-turn game as it would be in a 2-day-turn game etc.), and my default response is to hunt for a substitute (suggestions welcome).

[Squirrelloid]

Honestly, I'd be happy to conceed to whom I believe the game winner is going to be. But for the sake of not altering gameplay dynamics, I won't announce who this is. (If he would like to step forward and ask for our submission, I'd be happy to oblige).

Eriu has no endgame. Having run out of steam at about the same time I had to fight a bunch of people, I've sort of become resigned to being annoying but not especially threatening.

[Bananadine]

I perceive that you're giving up on following the rule of always trying to win, not because you're unwilling to fight but because you perceive it to be impossible to win. Is that right?

Awareness of the possibility that someone will do this will alter my design of future games of this type.

[Squirrelloid]

Yes, I believe it impossible for Eriu to win at this point. I mean, I'll play it out, but I don't think anything I do matters all that much (aside from the capability of being annoying). Its rather hard to 'play to win' if there's no feasible 'means of winning'.

I think the number of required VPs is set far too high - the game will have been long since over in any real sense by the time someone achieves that goal.

I also have a vested interest in seeing *you* (bananadine/vanheim) lose because you stabbed me just when i started to recover. But that's really my only remaining motivation - nothing else appearing to be achievable.

[Bananadine]

Yes, I believe it impossible for Eriu to win at this point. I mean, I'll play it out, but I don't think anything I do matters all that much (aside from the capability of being annoying). Its rather hard to 'play to win' if there's no feasible 'means of winning'.

Although it may be wise, rational, or otherwise potentially good to believe at some time or another that your somewhat powerful nation can't possibly win, it would never have occurred to me (due to my own personality and quirks) to believe such a thing. So, as I say, the Squirrelloid/Redwich example is educational for me!

I think the number of required VPs is set far too high - the game will have been long since over in any real sense by the time someone achieves that goal.

But what if everybody is still having fun right up to the end? They are free to do that, even if they aren't winning, and I think that is a pretty "real" sense in which the game could still be said to be progressing!

But of course people are just as free not to be having fun then--we'll see what happens.

I also have a vested interest in seeing *you* (bananadine/vanheim) lose because you stabbed me just when i started to recover. But that's really my only remaining motivation - nothing else appearing to be achievable.

Yes, I'd noticed that the barbarians were starting to receive better treatment from Eriu than the people of Vanheim were. Those barbarians seem pretty comfortable!

[Bananadine]

Alpine Joe is Arga Dis for now. I don't know whether Mithras told Joe about the nation's diplomatic situation, so if you had an understanding with Arga Dis, it may be in need of refreshment.

[Bananadine]

Hm half an hour left and Arga Dis hasn't sent in a turn. I've delayed the hosting, since we just changed a player and something strange may have happened.

[Bananadine]

That's the spirit, Eriu!

[Bananadine]

Some unplanned intellectual work has melted my brain and I cannot face a Dominions turn tonight. I request a day-long delay of turn 99.

Request granted!

[Bananadine]

How many sets of 150 astral pearls must Eriu accumulate, before that nation will regain its confidence and build some temples!

[Squirrelloid]

You think only 150 astral pearls went into that AN? Ha ha, ha, ha ha.

[secretperson]

151?

[Bananadine]

Leeching Darkness is awfully bright and colorful these days!

[Bananadine]

Always new lessons to learn, in Dominions.

[secretperson]

Wow, two armageddons in a row. It is kind of annoying that it doesn't tell you who cast it; it could have been anyone at this point. I guess it could have even been two different people.

[Squirrelloid]

Look at the bright side, a bunch of global slots got freed up.

[Mithras]

Doh! Just a note to say I haven't disapeared, I'm just extremely forgetful.

[Bananadine]

Dagan, the Renegade Sage, laughs at the feeble efforts of his foes to destroy him. Dagan will survive all!

This is his claim, at any rate.

[Bananadine]

Dagan cackles!

[Bananadine]

How many gems does it take to kill one Renegade Sage?

More than that, it turns out!

[Squirrelloid]

He only has a 20% chance of being hit! I mean, i've got 5hp 0prot blackhawks that have survived all this.

[Mithras]

Gotta say, I'm glad /someone/ still has blood slaves even if it isn't me. I know this goes agaisnt the whole win no matter what thing, it still makes me feel happy inside.

[Bananadine]

It appears that now two whole nations have accepted their own eventual destruction, so that they may take revenge on Vanheim. Disappointing!

[Bananadine]

...I say this as a nation, not as a game administrator, mind you. :)

[Squirrelloid]

Both Raiel and I could use an extension. Say 48 hours? Its been a busy week.

[Bananadine]

Ok -

[Bananadine]

It didn't let me just say OK! Extremely short messages are forbidden. Also it dropped the case of my K! I feel violated.

[Bananadine]

Hahaha I'm so used to people putting a fire brand and a vine shield on everybody that it never occurred to me to defend against a Tartarian Spirit's pair of Tartarian Chains!

[Bananadine]

Despite everybody's huge stockpiles of pearls and hordes of flying demigods, only Eriu has been enough of a failure to steal away Vanheim's strongest fortress and two of its best provinces. How embarrassing, to be the only nation in the world that's making permanent military gains!

[Raiel]

With the holiday weekend on this side of the pond, it looks like I'll need at least a 24 hour delay - better make it 48 hours to be sure.

Thanks!

[Bananadine]

~OK~

[Bananadine]

Holidays still going on?

[Bananadine]

Ah, Eriu has changed its goal again. But to what????

[Squirrelloid]

Death to the AC caster! My lab mages are fricking bored!

I ran out of Van provinces to attack...

[Bananadine]

We seem to have lost secretperson. Do any of y'all have access to secretperson via your eye arr cee's or anything like that? I sent a private message but there has been no answer.

I'll probably postpone hosting, if the deadline gets close and T'ien Ch'i hasn't moved. Such an awkward time to stale! But I guess if I postpone hosting, then I'd better also ask for a temporary substitute.

[Bananadine]

Maerlande is the new T'ien Ch'i, for now and maybe forever (secretperson and Maerlande will determine that). He may be contacted at the aforementioned name @gmail.com.

So much for playing to the end, for T'ien Ch'i at least! My plans in that regard give me no power over somebody who disappears. And of course, anybody could disappear, even if only due to a car accident or something... well, I'll do things differently next time. No more clams and clams and clams and more clams, for one thing... :)

[Bananadine]

Delaying a bit more for Maerlande.

[Raiel]

I think this one is over... I've discussed the situation with the new representative of TC, and there's no way for all of us combined to take him on. Secretperson stated in a PM that he didn't think he could claim victory... I took this on faith, but he was most certainly wrong.

Squirrelloid and I propose that, failing a reemergence and claim of victory by TC, we call this game a draw.

[Bananadine]

I took this on faith, but he was most certainly wrong.

You had to take it on faith? Where were your scouts, while his angels and elemental kings and undead gods were falling to half-dead Vanheim, one after another?

I made the same assumption you did, without whatever information Maerlande has given you: T'ien Ch'i was far too strong. But instead of giving up, I attacked, and found out how wrong I'd been. That's how it works, you know? You do your mental math: "They have roughly X resources, and I only have about X/Y resources (where Y is pretty big), so I can't possibly beat them." And then you fight them anyway, and if they were indeed too strong you learn something, and if they weren't, you learn something!

Yeah I know, nobody wants the unwinnable slog. But until secretperson disappeared, there was no future slog in my view, at least. I don't care whether T'ien Ch'i has a thousand gems, or a hundred thousand. I actually fought that nation, and until you stopped me, I was winning. Moreover, I saw no evidence that that wouldn't have continued, if I could have afforded to keep fighting. Trust that before you trust your mental math!

BUT now of course we have a different player, so maybe the game's result really is no longer in doubt--or wouldn't be, for somebody who knew everything about all our resources and skills. Now, maybe you know enough about Maerlande's skills to accurately identify an unwinnable slog in our future. But I don't. So even if I weren't idealistically attached to the idea of playing to the end (which I am), I would still want to keep playing. The issue is still in doubt for me. So I don't even need to invoke idealism; I'm just gonna keep playing.

I reject the draw, and invite the rest of you to keep playing as well. And I remind you... that's all I have the power to do. :) If you want to stop, then does it make much difference to you whether we all agree to stop? I mean, you're free to stop anytime. I can't pretend you'd be rupturing some ideal; we've already lost a central power, after all. The balance is way off, one way or another... I think maybe if secretperson came back, and if you guys would fight him for a bit, just to see, then maybe you'd change your minds and we could keep playing. But that's kind of a stretch. You've done your part.

Anyway: If you can find any reason to keep playing with a positive spirit, then I invite you to do so. Otherwise, thanks for playing, and please give your nation to the AI.

[Squirrelloid]

Bananadine:
Secretperson literally hasn't been using any of his real strength. He's absolutely loaded with resources and material he could be using and *isn't*. I agree, I thought he looked pretty weak for all his supposed strength, but then I heard from Maerlande just some of what he actually has. Its crazy. And Maerlande's more than a competent enough player to ride that gravy train to victory.

[Raiel]

I'm going to ignore what certainly comes across as an insult to the intelligence of every other player in this game, Bananadine, and answer the question you almost asked...

Yes, Maerlande is more than skilled enough to win this game with the resources at his disposal and we don't have nearly enough to stop him.

The only reason this game wasn't over 20 turns ago was that secretperson hasn't effectively utilized what he had available. If he had stuck around, there my have been doubt, but there no longer is... this game is over.

Edit: I re-read your post, and while the first part does seem a bit insulting, I concede that it doesn't have to be taken that way... I'm just ready to be done with this game.

[Bananadine]

I don't think the game is tainted by secretperson's failure to win when he "should have won", or anything like that. This didn't even come up until he failed to take his turns! That's the real problem. It's okay to have what secretperson had, and still fail to quickly win with it! That's just having strengths and weaknesses. We all have those. If you guys really think that secretperson was so dangerous, then yes, I'll accuse you of relying too much on predictions and not enough on actual battle results, and I'll claim I did better than you did in that regard. But that's not such an insult, is it? I mean, who's sitting on my capital right now? I messed up badly in some regards, and I guess I paid for it. Strengths and weaknesses!

(No, I still don't know what T'ien Ch'i actually has. I know as much as Raiel has said: Whatever it was, it wasn't used in a way that would bring victory. Isn't that enough?)

[Raiel]

I think we're on the same page, Bananadine, save one point...

I've played (a bit) with Maerlande and we've exchanged ideas and strategies. I've seen some of his turns (in other games).

There is no doubt in my mind that there is nothing ahead of us but a losing slog against what he has as TC... if he sets TC to AI, or a new player comes in for TC, we still have a game of sorts. That analysis is not influenced by preference: that's just the way I see it.

[Squirrelloid]

Maybe he'll actually succeed at killing me. Someone should have by now.

[Bananadine]

Should have! Should have! LlamaServer does not recognize should.

It'd sure be awesome if it did, though! Victory points are only a feeble step in that direction....

[Squirrelloid]

Now that Bananadine is eliminated, there is full agreement among the remaining players to call the game. If we were to declare a winner, there is even agreement that it would be TC, but (and Maerlande can't chime in here, but there is a thread on the new forums) TC is willing to call it without a winner because the change in player markedly changed the likely fate of the game.

Cheers, it was fun, if rather frustrating at times. I should have chosen a nation which didn't crap out around turn 50.

[Mithras]

I did enjoy that, though I'm surprised I survived through early game. Cheers, and congradulations to Maerlande, even if he can't see me. He gets credit for subbing at all and giving us an end game.

[Bananadine]

If all of you had quit while I was still playing, then I would have had a good time fighting the AI from within my tiny undersea nation (supposing LlamaServer supports a game between one human player and several AI players--I don't know anything about that). As it is, yes, you can all end the game together by turning your nations over to the AI, and if that happens then giving the "official" victory to T'ien Ch'i seems as reasonable as anything else.