Forge of Godhood - started

[quantum_mechani]

Lead your pretender to victory on the harshest of worlds:

Map: Desert Eye
Era: Middle
Players: 18-23
Magic site freq: 0
Gold multiple: 50
Resource multiple: 50
Research: Very difficult
Independents: 9
Mods: CB 1.5, no hoarding (gem generators made unique)
Hall of Fame: 15
Graphs: On

Host Schedule:
24h until otherwise requested

Victory:
12 of 23 capitals (or concession)

Other rules:
Nation selection random
No trading (meaning no sending gold/slaves/items/gems)
Breaking of alliances and NAPs should acceptable/expected
No magic above level 8 on pretenders (to prevent complete domination of blesses)

And lastly, a request rather than a rule- the game should be short so please play all the way to the death.

Players:
Frozen_Lama - Machaka
Lingchih - Shinuyama
QM - Abysia
Kestral - Ashdod
Jarkko - Pangea
LDiCesare - Atlantis
Meglobob - Pythium
Alpine Joe - Eriu
Burnsaber - Bandar Log
Executor - Arcoscephale
Ironhawk - C'tis
Micah - Agartha
TheDemon - R'lyeh
Jurri - Oceania
Archeo - Vanheim
Calahan - Man
P3D - T'ien Ch'i
ghoul31 - Jotunheim
vfb - Marignon
sansanjuan - Mictlan
Namad - Caelum
Agema - Ermor
Hadrian_II - Ulm

[Lingchih]

Sounds interesting, and insanely difficult. I might play though.

[Frozen Lama]

what's the pace?

[Frozen Lama]

i'm in

[Micah]

I'm potentially in, but I'll be traveling much of August, so I will likely need delays, so feel free to cut me if that isn't agreeable depending on when we get this rolling and such.

[statttis]

I'm not going to join in but I have a couple suggestions:
1. Reduce random events since you reduced everything else. Otherwise luck=win.
2. Ban/modify Pangaea, freespawn gives them an unfair advantage when gold+resources is lowered.

[quantum_mechani]

I'm not going to join in but I have a couple suggestions:
1. Reduce random events since you reduced everything else. Otherwise luck=win.
2. Ban/modify Pangaea, freespawn gives them an unfair advantage when gold+resources is lowered.It's a good point about luck, but I also hate misfortune = free points.

I'm not too worried about Maenads, any half decent troops can kill almost limitless numbers of them without buffs. MA Ermor is more of a worry... depending how many players sign up I may remove some nations from the random pool.

[Black Sun Empire]

Count me in, if you're willing to accept new players.

:)

[Stretch]

Sounds like a blast, although a little above my skill level at the moment. I'll be interested to see how this one goes.

[namad]

i'm posting because if i post this gets added to my subcribed threads list..

sounds interesting, maybe i'll join if you convince me with some links to breasts


P.S. I just told a joke. Jokes are funny. This is just in case you didn't know that.

[Jarkko]

Are stats on or off?

[namad]

I had an idea... maybe you could come up with a mod totally disabling non-capital sites and at the same time doubling the gem income of capitals? maybe that would be even true-er-er to the vision I am guessing you had in mind for this game?

[Lingchih]

OK, count me officially in. God, this should be a crowd pleaser for the sacrifice crowd

[Ironhawk]

Wow, intense! I'm on the fence.

[LDiCesare]

Around twenty players on Aran? That sounds insane.
I'm interested.

We could place bets on nations with these settings. Blood nations (Abysia) anyone?

[rdonj]

i'm posting because if i post this gets added to my subcribed threads list..

sounds interesting, maybe i'll join if you convince me with some links to breasts


P.S. I just told a joke. Jokes are funny. This is just in case you didn't know that.

link (http://www.omahasteaks.com/gifs/big/ck046.jpg). For you namad :P

[namad]

blood nations will be pretty insane with no gems... hrmmm

[vfb]

Blood hunting is tied to site frequency. Has anyone tried it on a map with zero? Sorry, I don't have time now.

This game sounds fun, but I can't join. :(

[Meglobob]

I am in, thanks for organising.:)

[okiN]

You'd be better off calling this game Sacreds Ahoy!

[vfb]

On a map with site frequency 0:

B3 with 0 unrest in capitol (30K pop), taxes at zero, captured this many slaves each month: 0,2,5,9,0,5,8,5,1,0,2,9.

12 months, 46 slaves for a B3 hunter.

[Jarkko]

Well, what the heck, please sign me up (and I do hope the stats are on :) ).

[Alpine Joe]

A random nation game with harsh conditions. I am definitely in.

[quantum_mechani]

Well, what the heck, please sign me up (and I do hope the stats are on :) ).
Yes, they are.

About sacreds, they probably will be pretty important, but I think the need for an awake pretender - to stop domkill - probably outweighs too extreme of a bless. That said I might be open to some kind of house rule (like no level 9 magic) to tone down blesses.

[LDiCesare]

Well, what the heck, please sign me up (and I do hope the stats are on :) ).
Yes, they are.

About sacreds, they probably will be pretty important, but I think the need for an awake pretender - to stop domkill - probably outweighs too extreme of a bless. That said I might be open to some kind of house rule (like no level 9 magic) to tone down blesses.
I can't see why an Ashdod player wouldn't play with an Earth 10 bless and imprisoned pretender even with this setting. Your neighbours must remain alive in order to kill your dominion.

[Burnsaber]

I'm always in for more crazy.

Count me in.

[quantum_mechani]

Well, what the heck, please sign me up (and I do hope the stats are on :) ).
Yes, they are.

About sacreds, they probably will be pretty important, but I think the need for an awake pretender - to stop domkill - probably outweighs too extreme of a bless. That said I might be open to some kind of house rule (like no level 9 magic) to tone down blesses.
I can't see why an Ashdod player wouldn't play with an Earth 10 bless and imprisoned pretender even with this setting. Your neighbours must remain alive in order to kill your dominion.
Actually, when I said no level 9s I kind of meant nothing over level 8. The most extreme solution, which actually worked out pretty good when I ran some similar games in dom2, is just not allowing anyone to add magic to their base chassis.

[Frozen Lama]

about domkill- is it really that potent? i've never seen domkill without the person being beseiged in their cap. how likely is it that a nation will be domkilled assuming they have an alive prophet, and a high dominion, and a priest or two preaching in their cap, but no awake pretender?

[quantum_mechani]

about domkill- is it really that potent? i've never seen domkill without the person being beseiged in their cap. how likely is it that a nation will be domkilled assuming they have an alive prophet, and a high dominion, and a priest or two preaching in their cap, but no awake pretender?Domkills like that are pretty rare... but still probably worth worrying about if you have you are surrounded by strong dominions with pretenders (or even worse, blood sacrifice).

[Frozen Lama]

other thing. gem gens are exceptionally good here. ban them?

[Executor]

Too interesting to pass, I'm in.

There won't be any point in gem generators with so little gems, and the game will probably be over before you can actually gain from them.

[quantum_mechani]

Please forgive the changing of settings after he game has been announced, but it seems a few changes are probably needed, based on input. I updated the first page with the following changes:

*No magic above level 8 allowed, to limit bless rushes.

*Map swapped from Aran to Desert Eye. It is a bit bigger, but I think it is important the map wrap around to avoid excessive advantage for those on the edges.

*All gem generators will be modded to be unique items. Originally I was thinking the game will never reach that stage, but better safe than sorry.

[Ironhawk]

I've decided to play so sign me up.

[TheDemon]

Sign me up.

[vfb]

about domkill- is it really that potent? i've never seen domkill without the person being beseiged in their cap. how likely is it that a nation will be domkilled assuming they have an alive prophet, and a high dominion, and a priest or two preaching in their cap, but no awake pretender?

http://www.llamaserver.net/showScores.cgi?game=Vfb_VS_DakaSha_Water_VS_Land

It's almost there (1031 vs 36 dominion). He's still got 15 provinces, including his capitol, but just 6 candles. Any time you've got high starting dominion and a blood-sacrifice nation you can do it, because of the huge number of temple checks you can generate.

[Executor]

about domkill- is it really that potent? i've never seen domkill without the person being beseiged in their cap. how likely is it that a nation will be domkilled assuming they have an alive prophet, and a high dominion, and a priest or two preaching in their cap, but no awake pretender?

http://www.llamaserver.net/showScores.cgi?game=Vfb_VS_DakaSha_Water_VS_Land

It's almost there (1031 vs 36 dominion). He's still got 15 provinces, including his capitol, but just 6 candles. Any time you've got high starting dominion and a blood-sacrifice nation you can do it, because of the huge number of temple checks you can generate.

I won a game with dom kill. I also lose one game due to dom victory to a nation lesser than me.
Trust me, dominion kill is very effective.
I've seen provinces with dom 10 change to my dominion in a single turn.

[LDiCesare]

Dom kill doesn't make an awake pretender more important. It makes high dominion more important, and high dominion synergises with bless strategies. Is it more effective to have a temple + prophet (2 checks) with dom 9 or temple + prophet + pretender with dom 6?

[Micah]

9 dom without pretender gives 3.6 candles on average, awake 6 dom pretender gives 4.6, so it's already in favor of an awake pretender. Additionally, given the gold settings blesses won't need very high dom since they'll generally be gold or resource-limited, not holy limited, and additionally anyone that's taking an awake SC is going to want high dom for awe, so assuming a 6 on an awake pretender is highly dubious...an awake 9 dom pretender gives 6.4 candles a turn, or over 75% more dom spread than without a pretender.

[Duggernot]

Pardon my ignorance, but how does one determine who plays which race randomly? I have played on Llama server and you have to input the god for your race? Do I assume quantum_mechani will randomly assign who has what race and post the list to this link?

Duggernot

[Frozen Lama]

i have a similar wuestion. this is *not rand, just no trading. so do we get nations then QM posts who has who right?

[quantum_mechani]

Once we have all the players, I'll give the list to a third party to randomly roll nations, then they will post who will be who in the thread.

[Calahan]

I can use my magic hat to pull the nations if you need a volunteer QM.

[Heinrich]

Please count me in as well.

[quantum_mechani]

I can use my magic hat to pull the nations if you need a volunteer QM.Thanks, that would be nice. Of course, joining up would be even better. ;)

We are up to 16, still need 9 more, tell your friends!

[Calahan]

I can use my magic hat to pull the nations if you need a volunteer QM.Thanks, that would be nice. Of course, joining up would be even better. ;)
I am very tempted to sign up, as I'm getting to be a big fan of non-standard games and random nations. As the former helps throw all the many (excellent) guides available in the bin, thereby forcing players to think for themselves. And the latter stops players perfecting strategies by picking their same pet nation every game. Plus there are more than just a few quality players signed-up so far who I'd welcome the chance of playing against.


Aaarrghhh, go on then sign me up. Typing the above just made me convince myself that this is too good a game to miss out on. Meaning of course that I'll have to pass the magical sorting hat duties onto someone else.


Although I should let you know now that there's a good chance that I'll be away for a weekend very soon due to work, so I might need a delay for that (am not the biggest fan of entrusting my nations to a sub). And another good chance I'll be away for 10-14 days in late October (assuming the game is still going by then, and I'm still alive). If neither of these two things cause a huge problem, then please add me to the player list QM :)

[quantum_mechani]

Although I should let you know now that there's a good chance that I'll be away for a weekend very soon due to work, so I might need a delay for that (am not the biggest fan of entrusting my nations to a sub). And another good chance I'll be away for 10-14 days in late October (assuming the game is still going by then, and I'm still alive). If neither of these two things cause a huge problem, then please add me to the player list QM :)No problem, several other players already on the list have similar caveats.

[P3D]

I'd give it a try too.

[ghoul31]

I'll join

[vfb]

Looks like you've still got an opening, and I've managed to get Dom3 running here, so I'll give it a go! Please sign me up. I'll probably need a 48-hour pause (or a single turn subbed) in a few weeks though.

[sansanjuan]

I'll give it a wing. So 8 is the max bless magic level in a single scool but your dominion can be 10?
-ssj

[quantum_mechani]

So 8 is the max bless magic level in a single scool but your dominion can be 10?
-ssjYes.

[DomDomDom]

The settings are really extreme. I'm in.

It seems we can randomly assign nations with help of this algorithm:

1) Host generates a single player game with all nations we need.
2) The list of Gods names is published on the forum.
3) Each player chooses a name. The last name left is for the host.
4) Every player gets free access to the basic SP game and sees his choice.

[LDiCesare]

That's not a good idea. I'm pretty sure names are biased depending on culture and type of pretender. Can Shad Foth be something different from R'lyeh for instance? Better to just use random rolls and numbers than lose time with everyone picking a name.

[Calahan]

It's usually possible to find someone to roll the random nations for a game like this. The Dom community is pretty helpful like that after all :) It's not a job that takes that long normally, and here there's no need to PM players their choices either (which would take some time), so it should be a very straightforward task.

I wouldn't worry about who is going to roll the nations. QM is a regular on the IRC, so I'm pretty certain he'll just bug someone on there until they agree to do it :)

[DomDomDom]

Yes, Shad Foth easily can be something different from R'lyeh. Any Wyrm can get this name and AI really likes Wyrm pretenders :).
Ok, let's make a little test. I've just made a random SP game,no Mods, Aran, MA, Impossible AI. Who is who in this list? :) ? (The list sequence of nations is changed).

Tarbar
Zothaqqoth
Boneater
Quellan
Varrath
Fegamur
Benim
Fras
Giftec
Than
Odia
Rex
Zrakhnadar
Eudropin
Uoth
Uxshenti
Minochehn
Gravecaller
Loighor
Lekiro
Ygh'yha
Carnage
Rifaa

[DomDomDom]

It's usually possible to find someone to roll the random nations for a game like this. The Dom community is pretty helpful like that after all :) It's not a job that takes that long normally, and here there's no need to PM players their choices either (which would take some time), so it should be a very straightforward task.



There is no need to PM every player. After everyone has chosen his name, the host attaches the save file to his post with list of names and nations. The process is easy and absolutely transparent.

[Frozen Lama]

Zothaqqoth- ryleh?

[Ironhawk]

There's no need to even be discussing this weird nation selection thing. 3rd party rolling of nations is the de-facto standard for this kind of game and has worked quickly and smoothly for them all. Lets not fiddle about.

[sansanjuan]

Magic site freq: 0

Tried a test game with this and found a "wild forest" in the second province I captured. What is the percent chance to find a site with this set at zero? I know the answer is somewhere in a post but the search function in the forum often frustrates me.
-D

[P3D]

Also very low site freq makes blood powerful.

[Frozen Lama]

P3d- see VFB's post a little ways back. freq ties into blood hunting, although it still Might be a little more powerful

[sansanjuan]

Found an ancient KO thread (Dom2 - 2004) . So Farms would have a zero chance for a site witha zero setting but Wasteland wound have 1 1:5-ish chance. Please holler if I'm full of hooey.
-ssj

=== KO thread

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=18574&highlight=site+frequency

Not sure of the exact numbers. I guess it works like this:

Magic: (site freq) + 30
Waste: (site freq) + 20
Swamp: (site freq) + 20
Mountain: (site freq) + 10
Forest: (site freq) + 10
Farm: (site freq) - 20

Only the most beneficial counts.

If site: Check what site. Random.
If site not possible: Reroll.
If site unique and already in the game: Reroll.
If site possible and rare: Reroll once.

Many nature sites are common but restricted to forests etc.

Unique sites are also rare or common. Inkpot end is unique and common. Crown of Darkness is rare.

No blood under water IIRC. Not sure about unholy.

[Micah]

Sites can still occur anywhere at 0 site setting, they're just quite rare.

[quantum_mechani]

Yes, the pretender-name method has some flaws, I'll simply find someone (likely Zeldor) to roll nations.

As for sites/blood hunting: As mentioned blood hunting is much harder on 0 sites, and as Micah says what KO posted there does not seem completely accurate (you can get sites on farms at 0 site freq).

I'm going to give a little more time to round up players, but whether or not we get more, nations should definitely get assigned this week.

[DomDomDom]

Zothaqqoth- ryleh?

Zothaqqoth- Oceania
Boneater - R'lyeh

[Agema]

I'll give it a go, if there's room left.

[Hadrian_II]

This game sounds interesting, count me in. (when i counted correctly, i should get the last spot :))

[Zeldor]

Ok, natiomn assignment, rolled randomly:


Frozen_Lama - Machaka
Lingchih - Shinuyama
QM - Abysia
Black Sun Empire - Ashdod
Jarkko - Pangea
LDiCesare - Atlantis
Meglobob - Pythium
Alpine Joe - Eriu
Burnsaber - Bandar Log
Executor - Arcoscephale
Ironhawk - C'tis
Micah - Agartha
TheDemon - R'lyeh
Jurri - Oceania
Heinrich - Vanheim
Calahan - Man
P3D - T'ien Ch'i
ghoul31 - Jotunheim
vfb - Marignon
sansanjuan - Mictlan
Namad - Caelum
Agema - Ermor
Hadrian_II - Ulm

[quantum_mechani]

Thanks for rolling them Zeldor. I'll try and get the game up on llamaserver soon.

Oh, and just to reiterate: I hope everyone pays close attention to dominion strength/pretender awakeness for dom spread, it would be sad to lose a bunch of players to Dom kill right off.

[Executor]

Arco, again? My Balkan brothers sure do love me in rand games.

[Jarkko]

Wohoo, Pangaea! :angel

This will be my fourth game going on at the moment where I have Pangaea. If I didn't love Pans, I would be pissed off :D

[Ironhawk]

Ctis - groan!

[Calahan]

Oh man, I've got Man. This design is going to be hellish.

[Frozen Lama]

Lol!!! Machaka without fetishes. so much fun

[Hadrian_II]

lets see how ulm plays without troops

[Calahan]

Wonder if anyone will be brave enough to not take an awake SC?

And remember folks, no magic levels higher than 8 on those Pretenders. Does anyone know if there's any way to check this before the game starts? (other than the obvious). Be a shame to have to re-start, or kick players out because they forgot about this rule during the design stage.

[LDiCesare]

Atlantis :( I hate water nations.
Btw are the gem generating pretenders allowed? They would provide quite a big boost over the rest and there are many in CBM (and I can't pick one).

[Ironhawk]

When are we slated to start? I'm travelling this weekend...

[quantum_mechani]

Atlantis :( I hate water nations.
Btw are the gem generating pretenders allowed? They would provide quite a big boost over the rest and there are many in CBM (and I can't pick one).
Yes, they are allowed (keeping in mind most of them are quite hard to SC without research).

Since there seems to be a lot of moaning over nation rolls I'm considering letting people trade picks if they want.

As for when to start, we could aim for next Monday.

EDIT: Game is officially up on llamserver (ForgeofGodhood).

[Calahan]

Since there seems to be a lot of moaning over nation rolls I'm considering letting people trade picks if they want.

I'd be against that personally. You have to play the cards you are dealt I reckon. And forcing players to learn to play new nations, and nations they might not like, are what make random nations games better than regular games IMO.

I also think it helps players become better overall by rounding their skills, instead of letting them focus on just a few tactics, and then always picking a nation that can pull off those tactics.

[quantum_mechani]

Since there seems to be a lot of moaning over nation rolls I'm considering letting people trade picks if they want.

I'd be against that personally. You have to play the cards you are dealt I reckon. And forcing players to learn to play new nations, and nations they might not like, are what make random nations games better than regular games IMO.

I also think it helps players become better overall by rounding their skills, instead of letting them focus on just a few tactics, and then always picking a nation that can pull off those tactics.I agree to an extent, but on the other hand I hate to force someone to play a nation they don't find fun at all. I especially feel bad for Jurri since he has gotten the absolute worst nations in the last two games I hosted, and MA Oceania is the one nation even Baalz despairs of writing good things about.

[Frozen Lama]

Yeah, when i signed up for this game, i knew i might get a really sucky nation, so i was resigned to just playing anyone as hard as i could. this game isn't supposed to be fair or balanced. My moaning was simply for the heck of it, as i started looking for a way to play Machaka. Not that anyone would trade for machaka anyways

Edit: so we do still have a MA ermor?

[quantum_mechani]

Not that anyone would trade for machaka anywaysI'm quite sure Agartha or Oceania would.

And yes MA all nations are in the game.

[Meglobob]

Got say, I am pleased with Pythium...:)

Never actually played this nation before thou, so will after ponder my options.

That's one of the big drawbacks with nerfing gem generators, you make already very weak nations like Machaka and Oceania even more sucky.

Oh btw with so many nations on such a small map, is there the serious possibilty of nations home provinces starting adjacent to each another?

[quantum_mechani]

Oh btw with so many nations on such a small map, is there the serious possibilty of nations home provinces starting adjacent to each another?I ran a few tests and it didn't happen, but I suppose it's possible.

[Ironhawk]

Since there seems to be a lot of moaning over nation rolls I'm considering letting people trade picks if they want.


I was groaning for dramatic effect. I'm ok with playing CTis tho I am somewhat unclear on how to get around thier sucky nationals in a game like this. Miasma is looking to be about as much of a help as a hindrance, too.

[LDiCesare]

I'd be against that personally. You have to play the cards you are dealt I reckon.
I agree with you.

I also think it helps players become better overall by rounding their skills, instead of letting them focus on just a few tactics, and then always picking a nation that can pull off those tactics.Well, in my case, I just think water nations should never have been part of the game. In particular, on Desert Eye, with 3 water nations I've always had 2 nations start in the sea and one in the lake. Which means the lake nation will have 5 water provinces rather easily (unless a wyrm starts nearby and wants to swim) and is likely to remain stuck there for a long time with very little to do. So I'm not sure I will hone any skills in this game.

[Agema]

MA Ermor? Damn, but I've never even looked at the nation. Should be fun...

[Executor]

MA Ermor? Damn, but I've never even looked at the nation. Should be fun...

Damn? No, no, I think the word you're looking for is "lucky bastard":)
Well, my money's on you.

[LDiCesare]

Bets anyone?
I'd say Ashdod or Ermor... Maybe even Jotunheim.
Or R'lyeh if they get lucky with void summons and Oceania doesn't eat them for breakfast (start in lake for instance).

[Executor]

My money's on Ermor, Vanheim or Ashdod.

[namad]

i doubt who is which nation will really have any impact on who wins....

[vfb]

I think R'lyeh should crush either Oceania or Atlantis in the water, with these map settings. (All right, I admit I think R'lyeh should crush Oceania/Atlantis with any map settings.)

Pythium should do okay with its Hydras and extra gem income, and I don't know if Arco and Bandar can get many elephants out, but if they do then Very Difficult research makes it difficult for most nations to counter them without a size 6 god.

[LDiCesare]

Put a high death magic ghost in fron tof the elephants, with awe +2 and fear > +6 the big beasts will run away and trample their friends like there's no tomorrow.
I don't think we'll see many ghost king pretenders though.

[Ironhawk]

Ashdod and Jot will benefit the most under the weakened bless settings. So they'll be really strong contenders on land. Ryleh is my bet for the water and perhaps a strong land / game contender later on. Be interesting to see what QM does with his Aby

[Executor]

Diplomacy settles this game. I doubt anyone will be able to resist being teamed upon.

[P3D]

I'd note that the map has a closed lake, one of the three water nations will start there.
Would there be fixed starting positions?

[Ironhawk]

Diplomacy settles this game. I doubt anyone will be able to resist being teamed upon.

You can't have great diplo if the victory is based on capitals (which it is) and there is backstabbing allowed.


Speaking of victory tho - I would like to move for a VP limit of 9, not 12. 12 is insane that would mean you would control half the map.

[quantum_mechani]

Speaking of victory tho - I would like to move for a VP limit of 9, not 12. 12 is insane that would mean you would control half the map.The victory condition is really just a fail safe, I expect a concession long before that.

And no, starts will be a random. I will restart in the unlikely event two capitals start next to each other though.

[Ironhawk]

Please lower the victory condition. As Artifacts has painfully taught us - not everyone is reasonable.

I move for 9 VPs.

[Hadrian_II]

Speaking of victory tho - I would like to move for a VP limit of 9, not 12. 12 is insane that would mean you would control half the map.

Half the map is only 60 provinces, i dont think that is too insane.

[Micah]

Yeah, and arti's problem wasn't VPs, once the logjam finally broke at the end of the game I was taking a VP every couple of turns, so lowering the threshold wouldn't have changed much. (Barring changing strats for a VP grab to be viable, but those are lame)

[TheDemon]

So when are pretenders due? I thought it was Monday (tomorrow!) but only 13 people have uploaded so far.

[quantum_mechani]

It was indeed. However, I have heard from Jurri he won't be able to get his pretender in until Wednesday.

... I forgot to post that though, so it doesn't really explain the missing pretenders.

[Micah]

You mentioned it on IRC, so it explains at least one. =)

[Ironhawk]

I was away for the weekend. Pretty sure I posted that in the thread. Working on a pretender now.

[quantum_mechani]

Given we are getting close to the actual pretender deadline, I just want to warn people if they don't get their pretender in by tomorrow or post for more time I may have to look for alts.

[Calahan]

Hoping to get mine finalised tonight. But will post again if I need any extra time (I'm hoping I won't need any though).

[namad]

i just figure with 7people who haven't submitted i might as well think it over another day... since i keep checking llamaserver and shrapnelgames every few hours

[Lingchih]

yeah, my god is in. Everyone's god should be in by now. It's getting pretty late.

[Calahan]

I've been delaying as I've been hoping that a vision of the perfect Pretender will appear to me in a dream :) It hasn't :(

[Agema]

I found the situation of the map makes pretender design quite tricky. I think my strategy should work, but you never know until you're into the game.

[Ironhawk]

We are starting tonight, right? Once Jurri gets in I thought...

[Calahan]

I'll have my Pretender uploaded once I get home from work. So about 2-3 hours from now.

[TheDemon]

I believe qm has found replacements for Ashdod and Vanheim, so we'll probably be waiting on them too.

[archaeolept]

I should get my vanheim build in by this evening... anyone ever mention that the Van are a gold-hungry race?

;p

[sansanjuan]

Good luck all!
-ssj

[archaeolept]

... you'll need it

;)

[Jarkko]

Look out for the masses of naked raging women (once I get enough gold to buy a Pan...)!

[TheDemon]

here's to everyone else who's gambling their SC on turn 1 :five:

[Calahan]

here's to everyone else who's gambling their SC on turn 1 :five:
You're all mad. Mad I tell you! :eek:

[vfb]

Blessed is he who sendeth his god forth blindly on turn 1 against strength 9 indies, for his god shall inherit a faceful of lances, and his priests will have much work to do.

[LDiCesare]

Gambling is fun.

[TheDemon]

Or in my case, likely a faceful of Amber Clan tridents. But I'm going to do it anyway. :help:

[Calahan]

Gambling is fun.
Oh it's a gamble all right, which may be fun, but the profit/loss ratio is just so ridiculously unbalanced that I don't see the point at all personally.

Win and you have a slightly faster expansion rate, meaning an extra 1-2 provinces at the end of year 1. Lose and it's game over with no chance of a comeback.

There's no 'Quit and Create New Game' option in MP. So it seems weird to me to risk throwing the entire game down the drain on turn one. Odds of winning are probably 90%, but that's still a 10% chance of the player deciding to kill themselves asap.


But best of luck to those deciding to throw the dice. A nice early leader created by a rapid expander also gives everyone an obvious target to bring down first :)

[Alpine Joe]

Gambling is fun.
Oh it's a gamble all right, which may be fun, but the profit/loss ratio is just so ridiculously unbalanced that I don't see the point at all personally.

Win and you have a slightly faster expansion rate, meaning an extra 1-2 provinces at the end of year 1. Lose and it's game over with no chance of a comeback.

There's no 'Quit and Create New Game' option in MP. So it seems weird to me to risk throwing the entire game down the drain on turn one. Odds of winning are probably 90%, but that's still a 10% chance of the player deciding to kill themselves asap.


But best of luck to those deciding to throw the dice. A nice early leader created by a rapid expander also gives everyone an obvious target to bring down first :)

Calahan you just need to learn to have a good time and risk that precious pretender every once and a while for an insignificant reward!

[Calahan]

Yeah you're probably right Alpine Joe. It's just that the analytical, efficiency obsessed, and highly competitive spirit within me won't let me :(

Damn you spirit, let me have some fun once in a while :banghead:

[Executor]

You work for the goverment don't you?

[Agema]

I checked out various start-game SC pretenders against level-9 indies. My assessment is that I'm extremely happy for other people to throw them into indies blind on the first turn.

[Ironhawk]

So, at a glance, I counted only 5 (out of 23!!) pretenders which did NOT have dom 9-10 according to thier names. Holy crap!!

In other news, I think someone else's cap is 2 provs from my own. Yikes!

EDIT: After a lively debate on IRC you can infer my 2 provs to mean "within mapmove 2", for clarity. Also, apparently everyone else is in the same boat - or worse.

[LDiCesare]

Lose and it's game over with no chance of a comeback.

So what? I'm playing Atlantis. Do you really believe I stand a tenth of a hundredth of a chance fo winning with that?
And then in order to lose I'd have to be taken over by another nation that can go underwater. There are times when the gamble doesn't seem that bad.

[namad]

those 5players probably took chasis with built in awe like lord of the sky or something else that has it....

[Executor]

Muahahahah! MINE! MERCENARIES ARE MINE I TELLZ YA!!!!

IronHawk, is that a rainbow pretender since your research is darn big compared to mine?

One nation seems to have a sleeping pretender?

[LDiCesare]

And anyway, those pretenders who durst not attack independant provinces on first turn are jsut cowards unworthy of ruling the world. They aren't confident in their own strength.
;)

[namad]

my testing indicates that taking a province on turn1 has no benefit at all.

literally. that is why I did not want to attack.

[Agema]

Do some pretender chassis give extra Dom? I thought the pretender gives one automatically, and then there should be temple checks for pretender (2), temple (1), prophet (1), capital (1). I make that a maximum of +6 per turn at the beginning, but some nations seem to have got maybe +8 or more.

[Calahan]

I might need a few hours delay for NEXT turn (turn 3). A small family problem has just occured this morning which results in me not being at home again until roughly 15:00 llamaserver time tomorrow.

If the current turn hosts close to its deadline of today at 18:25 llamaserver time, then I should be fine for getting the next turn in. But there are only 3 turns currently outstanding, so if the game hosts well before the deadline, I am likely to stale next turn unless a few hours are added to the clock.

Apologies everyone for possibly needing a slight delay so early, but as we all know, not much can be done about unexpected RL problems :(

So if someone could watch the clock for me I'd be very grateful :)

[vfb]

Do some pretender chassis give extra Dom? I thought the pretender gives one automatically, and then there should be temple checks for pretender (2), temple (1), prophet (1), capital (1). I make that a maximum of +6 per turn at the beginning, but some nations seem to have got maybe +8 or more.

IIRC I looked at this recently, and contrary to what the manual would have you believe, home provinces generate two temple checks. The pretender also increases dominion by 1 automatically in the province he is in. Some nations also start with a priest, who could have been given orders to preach. So the maximum is +9, maybe?

[Micah]

Maximum dom production: Pretender - 3 Home prov - 2 Temple - 1 Prophet - 1 VP - 1 Preach - 1

Probably also some events that can help.

[ghoul31]

I'm having a problem. When I try to play my turn, everything disappears except for the map. Anyone know how to fix this?

[LDiCesare]

I'm having a problem. When I try to play my turn, everything disappears except for the map. Anyone know how to fix this?
You mean no army showing, no interface around the map? 'n' key does nothing?

[namad]

every single time I EVER create and reassign new squads of troops the same thing happens to me. The only way I know of so far to fix the problem for me is to save my turn, quit the game, exit the program, restart the program, and continue playing my turn normally.


it's a really annoying bug that may have started for me with patch 23 or 21? not sure

[Agema]

Maximum dom production: Pretender - 3 Home prov - 2 Temple - 1 Prophet - 1 VP - 1 Preach - 1

Probably also some events that can help.

Thanks, I though the capital was just 1, and I didn't know you got VP Dom. You could probably discount preach on turn 1, though, couldn't you?

[namad]

There is at least one nation which starts with a priest probably.. I forget which one.

[Frozen Lama]

me- machaka

[Calahan]

Thanks for the extra few hours QM, much appreciated as it means I won't have to rush things. Back home now, and will try to get my turn in within the next hour or two. (after I've stuffed my face with food :))

[Hadrian_II]

How is it possible that Mictlans Pretender dies twice per turn?

[Executor]

Phoenix.

[archaeolept]

to elaborate, in CBM the phoenix auto-casts phoenix pyre.

[LDiCesare]

T'ien Ch'i staled. Anyone heard about P3D?

[Agema]

I wondered about taking a Phoenix after doing some testing, it's a great way to expand in this game. As long as you send it to friendly Dom it will clear defenders by exploding, with no risk of your pretender taking an early bath because of immortality. Tow the start army with it and on the few occasions the explosions don't clear the indies, there won't be much left for the grunts to mop up.

[archaeolept]

no. he almost staled yesterday [technically, I think QM extended host for a bit and he got it in after the deadline; QM extended it by a 1/2 hr today too], and was last one in - he should have just submitted a draft turn right then...

[sansanjuan]

I wondered about taking a Phoenix after doing some testing, it's a great way to expand in this game. As long as you send it to friendly Dom it will clear defenders by exploding, with no risk of your pretender taking an early bath because of immortality. Tow the start army with it and on the few occasions the explosions don't clear the indies, there won't be much left for the grunts to mop up.

Much along the lines of my thinking. In a game of limited magic that spell is not too shabby. As far as synergy with Mictlan... we shall see.
-ssj

[vfb]

The Council of Cardinals is shocked to see that our great and glorious Smaug was defeated by a gaggle of lowly Machacan militia! What shame we feel!

Still, our lands are secured by our static defenses, and our flagellants stand ready to inflict grevious afflictions on any who dare cross our borders. And we have put out priests to work in calling Smaug back from the underworld, and he shall soon grace us again with his presence.

-- The Marignon Council

[Trumanator]

As I'm playing Frozen's Forge turns atm, I appreciate VFB's handing over his pretender on a silver platter. And this one even had magic!

[sansanjuan]

The sun glints off the bloody moss of the two towering Dark Vines. The Bloodhenge Druids clutch daggers reminiscent of an earlier barbaric Mictlan age. Mabel decrees this blood sect must be purged and so we stand. She takes the lead. The Druids Bleed her as she closes. She smiles as her life force immolates the right flank. She attacks again. I feel the heat wash over me even from the rear ranks as her second immolation leaves smoldering husks of blood slaves. I call on Mabel's power even as she shakes off another wave of attackers. One of the Dark Vines succumbs to my spell. Limbs paralyzed. The Jags, filled with my blessing, fell a flailing Dark Vine and close on the one still gripped in my power. Soon the only sound is retreating woodsmen.

Lilly- Prophet of Mabel

[vfb]

As I'm playing Frozen's Forge turns atm, I appreciate VFB's handing over his pretender on a silver platter. And this one even had magic!

Upon seeing the death of Machaka's so-called god, the Council did not take long to come to a decision to attack the foul spiders, fearing that their treasure would soon fall into the hands of others.

We do not believe that you are currently in possession of our pretender, as our priests have already begun communicating with him from afar. Smaug assures us that he is currently in the 49th level of Hell, and expects to appear by our side most imminently.

-- The Council of Cardinals

[LDiCesare]

Phoenix with phoenix pyre makes me think once again CBM unbalances as many things as it fixes.

[Micah]

I don't follow, what's unbalanced?

[Agema]

Phoenix with phoenix pyre makes me think once again CBM unbalances as many things as it fixes.

I'm not sure I agree. It's useful only in your Dom, you can't realistically send it anywhere else without risking its loss. Secondly, it will almost certainly not stop your average SC god, even in its own Dom. After that it retains other limitations with limited slots, mediocre initial Dom (2), and new magic paths are very expensive.

[namad]

also it gains afflictions very rapidly by doing it's thing

[Calahan]

Phoenix with phoenix pyre makes me think once again CBM unbalances as many things as it fixes.
My understanding or perception of CBM is that it doesn't make great strides in balancing things out (in a sense of making units/nations balanced), but it does do wonders for making unloved and unusable units/Pretenders, a far more viable option. This subsequently opens up a lot more tactics and strategies.

The Phoenix in particular is a good example. In vanilla I can't see any reason to take it for any nation. As F/A paths are not that useful, and as a chassis the Phoenix (in vanilla) offers almost nothing of value. But under CBM the Phoenix is transformed into a definite candidate for several nations, and this is entirely due to it's auto Phoenix Pyre ability.

So in this case, CBM has done it's job (as I see it) in making a useless Pretender chassis into something that is useful.


A game like Dominions can never be 'perfectly balanced' IMO, so pointless to even try. This isn't a RTS game (thankfully!). All you can do is improve the things that are never used, and nerf the things that are abused/overused. Once you start seeing every unit/spell/Pretender in use on a regular basis, then I'd say CBM's job is done :)

[Meglobob]

CBM's great, it makes things useful rather than useless. The Phoenix being a very good example, never seen it picked as a pretender until CBM made it better. The phoenix is in no way overpowered just by having phoenix pyre ability.

Overall, CBM makes the game more balanced and fairer.

[Agema]

also it gains afflictions very rapidly by doing it's thing

That's not a big deal. Immortal beings automatically have recuperation and recover from afflictions. At worst you might get some short-term inconvenience if you suffer something nasty like Feebleminded.

[namad]

I hate realizing that you've made flaws in your initial gameplan during testing you do... AFTER you've already started!

don't you hate that as well?


Is it just me, or does this map have waaay too few wastelands and swamps? I can't hardly find ANY! (well I can find a few...)

[LDiCesare]

CBM's great, it makes things useful rather than useless. The Phoenix being a very good example, never seen it picked as a pretender until CBM made it better. The phoenix is in no way overpowered just by having phoenix pyre ability.

Overall, CBM makes the game more balanced and fairer.
I disagree. I think CBM makes EA Agartha worthless for instance, but this is off-topic so I'll stop here.

[Ironhawk]

CBM definitely makes the game far more balanced and DEFINITELY more interesting. Who on earth would want to play vanilla any more these days? Like half the units in the game in vanilla are just unsalvagable garbage. At least with CBM, everything has a niche use, however small.

[quantum_mechani]

Phoenix with phoenix pyre makes me think once again CBM unbalances as many things as it fixes.CB is ever a work a work in progress, certainly not every change turns out to be a good one. But corrections usually take feedback and debate on the subject, something that crops up suprisingly rarely. It doesn't generally take a lot reverse a CB change, a good argument or just a number of people all agreeing the change is bad.

Of course, perhaps if you consider half of all CB changes unbalanced this may seem far too steep a road to travel. If you still play in CB games though, seems worth a little effort though.

Oh, and I don't really think balance discussion is far off topic in a game thread, after all most balance has a direct effect on the very game we are playing.

[LDiCesare]

I think it's off-topic here thus I posted my comments in the CBM thread where they belong imo so I'm sure you could see them and get the feedback, and others can voice their opinion too.

[TheDemon]

On the topic of the phoenix (and yeah, I should bring this to the CBM thread), it doesn't just get afflictions and become temporarilly inconveinenced, it racks them up so quickly that end of year 1 you'll have a phoenix with 6 or 7 afflictions and it'll take literally 4 or 5 game-years for that to heal fully, assuming you never throw it into battle again (unlikely). Plus, although it does work as an SC, the range of indeps it can take on solo or even supported by the starting army is very small. There are far more unbalanced combat pretenders. Phoenix is kind of like the Ghost King, except instead of being crappy SC + rainbow its crappy SC + Fire bless.

[quantum_mechani]

I think it's off-topic here thus I posted my comments in the CBM thread where they belong imo so I'm sure you could see them and get the feedback, and others can voice their opinion too.Yeah, either place is fine with me, wouldn't be bad to reignite the CB thread.

[LDiCesare]

Wow! Carrion woods = Gem income * 3!

[archaeolept]

it's pretty sick - I blame QM :)

[Alpine Joe]

Oh Ermor, I was wondering which of your neighbors you planned to crush into dust first, and it just so happens to be me.

Oh well, I won't go down without a fight.

[vfb]

Toran will temporarily be taking control of Marignon for a few days. I've PM'ed QM.

[Jarkko]

it's pretty sick - I blame QM :)
So do I :p

Sadly the troop generation (which was why I did cast CW) seems to be pure crap (I got a grand total of three manikin this turn), but the gem income sure rocketed. If I just had something to spend those gems on :cold:


Btw, as we are using this thread to comment CBM, it might be worth to consider making CW available for LA Pans only, but perhaps lower the gem cost there. Not only is CW thematic for LA Pans, but CW is actualy easier for EA and MA Pans to cast; CW needs 50 gems, which means EA and MA Pan can get it up after 10 turns (recieve 5 N gems per turn) unless there has been some random events granting more gems (when CW could be cast even earlier, say on turn 8...).

[Trumanator]

A lot harder to move those manikins around however, w/out recruitable D mages.

[Jarkko]

A lot harder to move those manikins around however, w/out recruitable D mages.
True that (even though there are blood mages available, but they can't move masses), but all it takes is one empowerement. Either empower one dryad to D1 or a Revenant to N1, and there is basically an un-limited stream of Mound Kings and Carrion centaurs to lead the masses. Of course, in MA the Pans have a 25% chance to be at least D1, so no Empowering needed (although it would feel *wrong* to use a Pan to just summon Mound Kings and Carrion Centaurs; it's just *so* below them :D ).

[Calahan]

Have we got a potential problem with 'P3D' / T'ien Ch'i? The last turn was staled, and are currently the only nation still to submit a .2h file for this turn.

Still a few hours to go until hosting though, so plenty of time for the turn to arrive, but thought I'd flag it up just in case. The forum activity stamp says that 'P3D' was last on the forums around 13 hours ago, so it does't look to be an AWOL case.

[archaeolept]

yeah 3 stales or close to it in the first 9 turns. wth

[quantum_mechani]

TC technically should have staled this turn but I extended and found a sub for one turn (Atul), unless P3D posts I guess I will start looking for a permenant sub.

[quantum_mechani]

Also, Marignon's sub Toran has requested another 24 hours so I've moved the host time.

[Lingchih]

Not much point in me continuing to do my turns, and my lone scout is getting tired of running all around the capital battlements, shooting at the fish men. So, Shin is going AI.

Have fun ya'll.

[vfb]

I'm back and ready to resume command of the Council of Cardinals. Perhaps some miracle has occurred and Smaug already graces Marignon with his blessed presence? One can only pray and hope.

[namad]

The nation which requested the delay already has their turn in quite early....


now I know you can't undo a delay because it might confuse someone but... could everyone try to get their turns in on the original schedule instead of waiting an extra 24hours that no one needs?

pls k thx bai

[Calahan]

The Marignon delay request may have been asked for so that the returning Marignon player (vfb) gets a chance to do his own turn rather than the one submitted by the sub (Toran). As I'm sure vfb would like the chance to ruin the chances of his own nation ;)

It's also possible that the current Marignon turn is just a 'token' turn (just recruitment), and submitted to avoid a stale (just in case the delay request got missed/refused)

So I suggest that rather than everyone getting their turns in by the original deadline (so that the quickhost kicks-in), that the quickhost should be turned off to give vfb a chance to get a proper Marignon turn in, or until vfb confirms that he is ok with the quickhost being on (ie. He is happy with the current Marignon turn that has been submitted)

My own opinion is that regardless of whether or not a turn has already been submitted for a nation, if that nation asks for a delay, they should be given the chance to use it. The quickhost feature is not always a good thing IMO (and in fact I won't be using it in future games that I organise)


Edit: Having just checked the admin logs, the email for Marignon hasn't been changed back to vfb yet (which is to be expected given qm's timezone). So another good reason to turn the quickhost off for the moment.

[vfb]

I have no objections to using the currently submitted Marignon turn, but I don't think it's a good idea to undo a delay (as namad already said) (not that Calahan is suggesting that we undo the delay).

P.S. There was no arrangement for a delay with the intention of me redoing the turn, AFAIK.

P.P.S. I like quickhost, I especially like it when the last person to submit does another turn immediately (in the early goings, of course). I've only seen quickhost cause problems in network games when people try to do a turn offline but accidentally upload. What other problems have you had with it, Calahan?

[Calahan]

What other problems have you had with it, Calahan?
Not so much a problem, it's just I've really come to dislike an encroaching hosting deadline, which easily and regularly results with quickhosting.

From playing in Pasha's RAND game, and the fixed hosting days and times that has (since he hosts it privately), I've found it really helps my enjoyment of games, and I feel in far less of a 'rush' doing my turns.

Since with Pasha's RAND game I know I have all of Tuesday / Thursday / Sunday evenings, to do my turns in. But for example with the llamaserver, and entirely due to the quickhost, and on a 48 hour schedule, the following scenario almost always happnes occurs.

On Tuesday evening I might have until 10pm to do my turn, but then come Thursday that could be down to 9pm, then Saturday it's 8pm, and by the following Monday it's 7pm. So over the course of the week the amount of time I have to do my turns in the evening has gone from about 4 hours to 1 hour. Which either leads me to having rush my turns, or ask for regular delays. Neither of which I like doing.

It also doesn't help that I'm not a player who likes doing two turns in one evening. As I like to do a turn, look at any new turn that might arrive (or look at it the following morning), and then think about that turn over the next day or so. I like my thinking time :)


So the next game I organise will have the quickhost turned off after the first 10-15 turns, as then the game will host at the same time each day thereafter (and so won't suffer from an encroaching deadline)

[namad]

I think a better option than turning quickhost off might be to just use 28 or 30hour host cycles and then move to like 50hour or 52hour or some such...

I've always wanted to try that.

[Calahan]

I think a better option than turning quickhost off might be to just use 28 or 30hour host cycles and then move to like 50hour or 52hour or some such...

I've always wanted to try that.
I tried a 30 then 54 hour schedule in the 'CarCrash' game that I organised. Some players didn't like it (too slow apparantly). It also didn't help that much in solving the encroaching deadline, which I was surprised by. As that was the entire reason I decided upon that schedule (as I thought it would prevent it)

But as I said, I'm finding the fixed hosting times in Pasha's RAND game to be a very nice schedule indeed :) So I'm hoping a llamaserver game with quickhost off will be the same, or similar to that.

[Executor]

I don't like those mid host schedules, 30h, 36h or so, I always end up staling the turn due to the constant time differences the turn arrives.

[LDiCesare]

I prefer quickhost personally. 25 and 49h make more sense than 24/48 imo because you can safely play at fixed times yourself if you want to.

[Calahan]

....25 and 49h make more sense than 24/48 imo because you can safely play at fixed times yourself if you want to.
I've tried this, but it only works if you can leave it until last to submit your own turn every time. Which is not always possible if you have any RL plans at all, and sometimes risky if you have an unreliable internet connection. So it is far from a safe way of ensuring a fixed hosting time each turn (like quickhost off does). And if you submit just one turn early, that means that turn could host early (due to quickhost), and then you're back to 'the', well 'my', encroaching deadline problem.

There are not many things I haven't tried to lessen my own problem with the quickhost feature, since it became a problem for me almost immediately when I stated playing MP games.

[quantum_mechani]

Settings and host time will stay as they are, to avoid confusion. However, I will try to submit my turn so it ends up hosting roughly on the schedule it was on before.

[archaeolept]

still needs pyth, Pan, and BL. c'mon boys! and naked manic women. and monkeys.

[Ironhawk]

I'm going to declare war on any nation whose turn is not in within the next.... 5 hours. Thx

[Jarkko]

still needs pyth, Pan, and BL. c'mon boys! and naked manic women. and monkeys.

Hmmm... I could swear I already sent my turn... Anyway, (re-)sent now.

[P3D]

My main problem right now is the lack of home 'net access, should be able to take back TC this Thursday or so.

[namad]

qm, if you are the last one to submit, and you are waiting to submit until near the deadline... it might be more efficient to simply submit whenever you notice and then add a delay equal to however many hours you submitted...

[Executor]

I'd understand if noobs always teamed up against someone, but in dominions, it's always the opposite for some reason, vets tend to do it for more, it's a little disappointing...

Hm, who would have expected that Lich to be so resilient.

Well, come and get me ya bastards!

[Frozen Lama]

I see smaug has returned. would he care to test his mettle against Frozen Lama?

[Jarkko]

I'd understand if noobs always teamed up against someone, but in dominions, it's always the opposite for some reason, vets tend to do it for more, it's a little disappointing...
So playing smart is disappointing?

[Executor]

To me it's playing cowardly, safety in numbers, almost anyone will fall under multiple attacks.
I don't see the joy in playing the game that way. I know only a handful of people that prefer to go solo into war and that's what really disappointing.

[Micah]

Hey, when I'm in the lead I'm all for solo wars!

Funny how you never hear the little guy who is charging bravely into battle against a superior foe complaining about how extra people entering the war ruined his joy and turned him into a coward, it's always the big guy that's complaining when the odds turn...

[Calahan]

I'm not convinced ganging is a noob or a vet thing personally, since it's the nation in question and the actions of that nation which usually dictates things. From my experience, you are far more likely to see early / runaway leaders, or aggresive nations getting ganged up on. Especially if the graphs are on since it makes these things very easy to spot.

I'm slowely coming to the conclusion that if you want to win games, then it's probably best to be a strong mid-nation through the early and mid game, and not a front runner. As nations that expand as rapidly as possible, and/or conquer every neighour in sight, usually become the first nation to be gangbanged. And once that happens, it's only rarely that they've managed to build up a position strong enough to not only survive, but also win at the end of it all.

[namad]

it depends on the map... some maps don't allow for gangbangs until people learn winged boots and cloud trapeze...


if you are on a map with lots of choke points you might only ever have two neighbors and if your a front runner you might just win 2on1 after 2on1 after 2on1


on this map every has like 4neighbors in 4different directions so it's not quite the same

[archaeolept]

wait, you expand massively into everyone's spheres of influence, and then start whining when everyone doesn't just lay down before your magnificence?

the only thing I don't understand is why _all_ your neighbours aren't in for the banquet.

You clearly over-expanded and bit off more than you could chew. And I'm not even involved in this war in any way.

[Executor]

Hey, when I'm in the lead I'm all for solo wars!

Funny how you never hear the little guy who is charging bravely into battle against a superior foe complaining about how extra people entering the war ruined his joy and turned him into a coward, it's always the big guy that's complaining when the odds turn...

Micah, I'm not complaining, I'm just stating. I'm rather used to this from my experience.
That's why I much more prefer no score graphs, and even no wraparound maps. That just given them more ability to gangbang you.

Everyone usually attack if they have a 2 vs 1 advantage, or are much more powerful, or spot a nice fresh noobish piece of land, and I think that's wrong, that's why I choose my targets strategically rather than by player/nation/odds...

So my ideal games would be no diplo no score graphs games, and those are very rare, actually there aren't any.

[Executor]

wait, you expand massively into everyone's spheres of influence, and then start crying when everyone doesn't just lay down before your magnificence?

the only thing I don't understand is why _all_ your neighbours aren't in for the banquet.

You clearly over-expanded and bit off more than you could chew. And I'm not even involved in this war in any way.

Once again Arch, this wasn't much related to this game, rather generally speaking.

And I expanding this big because I know I have no chance of winning this game as I said before it won't be determined by skill, but rather by diplomacy no matter what you might think or say.

[archaeolept]

eh, if it's not related to this game, you're not posting in the correct thread :D

[vfb]

I'd understand if noobs always teamed up against someone, but in dominions, it's always the opposite for some reason, vets tend to do it for more, it's a little disappointing...

Hm, who would have expected that Lich to be so resilient.

Well, come and get me ya bastards!

Ha ha ha. :)

If you want to get into some interesting one-on-one wars, I think you need a nice big screw-up in the first year so you won't scare everyone with your province count.

[vfb]

I see smaug has returned. would he care to test his mettle against Frozen Lama?

Just you wait a couple months! We'll have so much gear on him he'll be invincible! Moo ha ha ha ha ha. We expect the false Machakan Wrym to be kitted out nicely, oh, somewhere around the year 17, based on your current research levels.

-- The Council of Cardinals

[Jarkko]

To me it's playing cowardly, safety in numbers, almost anyone will fall under multiple attacks.
I don't see the joy in playing the game that way.
So others should sit and wait on the side-lines patiently for their turn while one strong nation eats up them one at a time? That is quite an interesting way to expect people to act :eek:

[TheDemon]

Bad luck on your part. I didn't coordinate it with Tien Chi. And even if I had, I definitely didn't think your army would be defeated.


e: And to be fair, if you are simply complaining about being ganged on by myself and TC then I don't know what you're on about. You can take us both on easilly enough. I don't know what's happening at your other borders however.

[archaeolept]

I don't know what's happening at your other borders however.
nothing at all - although now that he has so spectacularly advertised his weakness, I wouldn't at all be surprised for that to change :D

basically, it would seem that he feels it unfair that you attacked him, instead of leaving him to deal w/ the mutilated remains of a previously staling T'ien Ch'i at his leisure. :)

[vfb]

I understand Executor's expressed frustration, since I've witnessed him get dogpiled in pretty much every game he's played in. On the other hand, Arco did rack up some pretty impressive territorial gains. But with no gem income from indy provinces, 50% income, and LA Ermor scales in abundance, only the blood hunting nations can make really good use of additional indy territory.

That said, Marignon hereby declares war on Abysia and Vanheim! As soon as I'm done with Machaka, watch out, you evil hunters of the fair young maidens. Our knights will soon ride to your rescue!*

-- The Council of Cardinals

* Please note that due to extreme resource limitations and wars with spider beasties, we are currently a wee bit short on knights, so a small gaggle of flagellants will be sent instead.

[archaeolept]

heh, vanheim can afford bloodhunters? net income is currently 66/turn, so I can afford a lvl 1 hunter 3 times a year :D

also, bloodhunt results are affected by gem frequency settings... so, I doubt that we will be drowning in oceans of it ;)

[Executor]

I'm not complaining about anything!!!

I feel I'm talking to myself here,
yes I did attack TC, but only after a player had been found. Most people would do, and do do the complete opostie and attack a steleing nation, however I did not, and besides, who am I to attack, I have 3 neighbors that are the same size, and TC looked like a logical target with his pretender choice, I planned to attack him before he ever staled, you can believe me or not, I really don't care at all what anyone thinks.

I have little interest in this game as luck seems like the key factor and that's something I'm short of unfortunately, and the fact that I have les and less time for Dominions doesn't help me either. :)
Let's not forget diplomacy, I'm a little burnt out from it and don't even bother to make NAPs, so it was only a matter of time before some of my numerous neighbors attacked, that one of the reasons for my lack of interest here.

I apologize Demon, although, you must say it did look plenty coordinated from my point of view.

Jarko, ah damn, I had something smart to say but forgot what it was...
In short, you're getting the wrong picture. I'm not saying 1vs1 wars are a must or something like that, that would be silly, there are always some nation that are too strong to be dealt with solo, however, I'm saying that 2vs1 wars aren't a must either! Wow, deja vu.
I know a loooot of players that simply refuse to go to war unless someone is on their side, or just lurk and wait to join a war in progress, and even worst just lurk,lurk,lurk, do nothing the whole game and complain how some nation are just too powerful, wtf!?!? If you want to win you've gotta play to win.

[vfb]

heh, vanheim can afford bloodhunters? net income is currently 66/turn, so I can afford a lvl 1 hunter 3 times a year :D

also, bloodhunt results are affected by gem frequency settings... so, I doubt that we will be drowning in oceans of it ;)

The Council is operating under the assumption that no nation is actually depending on taxation as a primary revenue source. As we understand it, the Pantokrator lobs a few gobs of cash at those nations who receive his lucky blessings every month. If Vanheim has not been receiving these gifts, it's probably because he's mad at you for all that blood-slave hunting you've been doing.

-- Marignon

[quantum_mechani]

I have little interest in this game as luck seems like the key factor and that's something I'm short of unfortunately, and the fact that I have les and less time for Dominions doesn't help me either. I'm sorry to hear that... if you are really not having fun though I think there are a number of players who would be willing to sub in.

[Jarkko]

If you want to win you've gotta play to win.
I think you hit the nail with that :) Now you have to ask yourself: Did you play to win in this game, or did you paint yourself as a target?

Now, we all play multiplayer games because we want to play with other people. Thus, if you intend to play to win, do you

a) Paint yourself as a target early on, either because you appear to be too weak or too strong
b) Keep yourself strong enough to not appear as a weakling but neither strong enough to gobble up your neighbours in a blink of an eye

Multiplayer gaming in its very core is like the TV-show Survivor: Do you want to be the next target?

Some would say only mediocore players can thus win. But the key is to play to win, and I think many will be prepared to play accordingly :) There are some damn excellent players around here who did not rush to paint a bullseye on their forehead (which I am happy of, seeing as I am neighbouring a few such players :D ).



@vfb regarding Blood: Dunno if it's just me, but bloodhunting is less than stellar. I decided I want to do some bloodsacrificing to pump up my dominion a bit. A B2 Pan was given the task to search for fresh virgins.

After two turns of bloodhunting and a grand-total of one captured blood-slave I discarded the idea. That one slave is now stored in the gem vault as a novelty, although I expect Bogus or some other hero to come and, as usual, rescue her in a couple turns...

[namad]

in testing at 0unrest a single warlock was able to average like 4blood per turn hunting his own capital with as little as 0 and as many as 9


a b2 pan shouldn't've been that much worse, so either you weren't hunting your capital or you got unlucky to get so few.

[Jarkko]

in testing at 0unrest a single warlock was able to average like 4blood per turn hunting his own capital with as little as 0 and as many as 9


a b2 pan shouldn't've been that much worse, so either you weren't hunting your capital or you got unlucky to get so few.

Was hunting in my capital with 0 unrest, so seems I just was unlucky then. On average four per turn would be more than nice, as I'd need just two per turn for the sacrificing (would be nice to have a few more candles in my capital, just to make me breath a bit easier :) ).

[vfb]

in testing at 0unrest a single warlock was able to average like 4blood per turn hunting his own capital with as little as 0 and as many as 9


a b2 pan shouldn't've been that much worse, so either you weren't hunting your capital or you got unlucky to get so few.

Was hunting in my capital with 0 unrest, so seems I just was unlucky then. On average four per turn would be more than nice, as I'd need just two per turn for the sacrificing (would be nice to have a few more candles in my capital, just to make me breath a bit easier :) ).

Sinner! You admit your crimes against humanity. And you were already on shaky ground with that blasphemous global of yours feeding you gems.

Marignon declares war on the evil Pan nation! You can expect to see a legion of knights appearing on your border shortly, or failing that, Alverne the Friar will pay you a visit. Then you'll be really sorry for catching that blood slave. *

-- The Council of Cardinals

* P.S. We have spoken to your want-to-be god, and he has proclaimed Blood Sacrifice an abomination in his name. Just go ahead and try it! See?

[namad]

well pan's will be worse than warlocks but I would reckon a pan would get an average of 2per turn at least? just run a separate test game i'm too lazy to do it over (warlocks are the best blood hunter in the era but not the only ones)?

keep in mind that in my test game I had 0unrest on everyturn I hunted not just the first...

[Agema]

I want to install my Dom3 on another computer, and I can't find wherever I got the unique gem generator mod. Can someone provide a link?

Edit: cancel request. Had a flash of inspiration and remembered to check Llamaserver, found it.

[quantum_mechani]

I'd just like to salute those nations/players that died in the first wave- better luck next game.

[quantum_mechani]

Oh and a reminder since there seems to have been some confusion- both the sending of gems, as well as gold and items is banned.

[vfb]

Marignon flaunts our Brazen Vessel before the eyes of those who would use it for evil purposes. Verily we did slay a legion of undead to prevent this foul object from falling into evil hands! We are going to put it in a museum and keep it there. No blood hunting here in Marignon, that's for sure!

[Jarkko]

Hehe, figured out (again) MA Pan can't actually bloodsacrifice. This is about the 17th time I forget it's only the supercool *EA* Pans who can bloodsacrifice :( So much about that plan, back to building temples... At least the temples are still cheap.

In other news, seems Abysia has gone on overdrive with bloodsacrificing. Looks like there will be dominion kill casualties soon. Happily waiting here when Vans decide to start the sacrificing too :p

[archaeolept]

haha bloodhunting. at 280 for a blood 1, that's not happening any time soon :)

[Agema]

Then try 380 gp for a 25% chance of B2 ;)

[vfb]

News came to the Council of Cardinals that the spiders of Machaka had betrayed their southernly neighbors, launching an invasion even though a non-agression pact was in place.

It would be foolish for us to trust that the arachnids would honor their ceasefire with Marignon. Additionally, as a purely defensive measure to prevent infiltration by the arachnid armies, the Council has launched Operation Hoover, to tidy up the forests surrounding our lands.

-- The Council of Cardinals

[Frozen Lama]

*Spiders across the world clack their pincers in delight, and head to Mari's churches.*

*spider emissaries head to the courts of blood nations to whisper in their ears*

[namad]

I am sooo freaking unlucky my rarest and most valuable mage is the only mage to get diseased this winter!

[Micah]

At least you're not Agartha.

[Jarkko]

At least you're not Agartha.

Why did you have to raze that fort and lab of yours just before the pro-active defence force of Pangaea arrived to relieve your burden of twin capitals? Do you have *any* idea how much rebuilding those will cost, especially in this game where money is so rare :( I mean, I was really looking forward to getting another fort and all http://www.smileyhut.com/sad/crying.gif

[quantum_mechani]

Hosting postponed 15 hours by request.

[Micah]

Hmm, I'm guessing it's because you backstabbed me. I save scorched earth tactics for such occasions...that being said, I was completely serious about doing my best to take Van down with me since he instigated the whole thing, if you fancy heading westward.

And about 1700g since it's on a farm province, assuming Pan does fortified cities there.

[archaeolept]

I instigated the whole thing? you started trying to shortchange my puny territories I was to be getting, from 3 crappy pyth territories outside my immediate capital zone, to what was looking like 1, {even with all 4, the income value was about 15% of pyth's total) and then initiated discussions w/ Pan concerning... me. I talked to him, and turned it around. Any diplomatic results are due to your own actions. And my attack only came after pythium had been vanquished.

so now you wish to do some metagamey suicide, abandoning any defense against Pan, to send everything you have against me. Guess I'll be rolling with the punches then :)

edit: also, please cry more. thanks.

[vfb]

Brother Leary preaches, "Should we build walls between us, that we cannot hear the preaching of the devout? Nay, let us not build walls. In fact, we would all be much better off if everyone just razed all their castles right now! So go forth and raze, peoples of the world. And ye shall receive our blessings." *

Thus spake Brother Leary.

(* Note: In order that our preaching might be better heard, unfortunately the brothers of Marignon need some sort of platform to stand on, so our own castle walls are exempt.)

[Micah]

Arch - First off, your accusation of me discussing attacking you with Pan is a flat-out lie, assuming you meant before you attacked ME, but I guess I can see how it makes you look better to claim otherwise.

All I did was ask if you were taking a province since you moved your forces away from it and you somehow translated that into stealing it out from under you? A simple "I'll be taking it with a scout" would have sufficed. I also didn't notice you fighting anything that wasn't a single point of PD during the whole fight with Pythium, so I'm not sure what exactly you were getting rewarded for, though I would have stuck to the agreement if you had just used your words.

As for attacking you instead of Pan...I told you I wasn't giving up Pythium when you attacked it, I'm living up to that promise. I also have a better shot against you than I do against Pan, so I don't see the point of cowering in my cap waiting for him to decide to kill me off instead of going after you.

Oh, and way to be an ******* with the gratuitous personal attack.

[archaeolept]

look, you're doing the classic meta-game suicide attack, as you said to me. I know what it is, how it is supposed to work.
I'm unmoved by it.

Your account of the provinces involved is incorrect.

The proper manner, in this game, to resolve such disagreements is through war. This is explicitly in the OP, and the special rules, such as the ban on trading, work to support this. I did not attack until Pyth was gone, as per my commitment, as I understood it.

You accused me of instigating the whole thing; I denied that and said, rather, you.

Also, "rewarded" - that's surely the attitude which made you so cavalier with the agreed disposition, which included Holburg. More like this war is the reward.

Anyways I do apologize for that last line in my previous post. It's more an internet meme than anything personal, but the tone is regrettable.

[Micah]

It's not really suicide when you're dead anyhow. I don't see how cowering in my cap would have accomplished anything to increase my long- or even mid-term survival. Watching Pan's army tear through my 58 PD this turn without taking a single loss that wasn't freespawn doesn't do much to make me think I was mistaken.

What is the correct account of the provinces involved then? I recall having my prophet die because I scripted him to retreat so you could take the province SW of Pyth if you wanted it, so I'm not sure how that equates to me being overly belligerent.

Your comment about being a friendly neighbor if I attacked Pyth was misleading, intentional or not. I had intended to ask if you would be a good neighbor once they were dead, but I suppose you did satisfy the letter of the question with your response. Perhaps it was simple miscommunication, perhaps not. Regardless, at the end of the day you attacked me because you didn't like my attitude about the conquered provinces, so I don't see why I don't get to do the same.

As to Holburg: If I am not mistaken I took it for war operations against Pyth, including having my priest preach out the last candle of Pyth's dominion, which I told you about. You never even mentioned wanting to take it after he dommed out before you attacked me. Plus I'm pretty sure the terms we agreed on had you taking the provs WEST of Pyth's cap, which doesn't even include Holburg.

And I realize that the game encourages NAP-breaking and backstabbing, I'm not accusing you of playing outside the rules, but I do object to you portraying my response to your attack on me as being somehow meta-gamey or unsportsmanlike. I tried to hold on to both of my VPs as long as I could, but your successful vanquishing of Kin-Breaker made me have to decide between Pyth and Agartha, and both of them result in a messy death. I'm not sure why you consider sitting around and waiting for it to happen less meta-gamey than just getting it over with.

[Jarkko]

Ooops, did I somehow stir the cauldron in a way I did not intend to? My previous post was intended as a funny remark on how Agartha snapped my prize in a clever way (fully supported by the game engine because these exact things, I believe).

Also, Pangaean losses in the assault on Agartha may have been freespawn, but they died in droves, just as anybody can witness by checking the graphs. Free spawn have feelings too, you know :(

[namad]

burning a lab would've counted as screwing pangaea? yet somehow burning the fort counts as suicide?


if you can't win a single battle you can hole up in your fort and repair the walls, oh wait nevermind pangaea's army is so massive it would've 1rounded the walls ANYWAYS...


razing the fort just COSTS pangaea 1700gold like micah said... i doubt micah's BATTLES could have caused 1700gold worth of troop loses against FREESPAWN...


of course I have no idea what you are arguing about... I'd just like to say I fully support fort burns, and now that I know they are possible I might use them in the future in a situation where I feel the cost of rebuilding my capital is greater than the damage I could deal in combat to that nation including the turns wasted sieging me.

[archaeolept]

I have to look with a wry eye at your new rationale about it being easier to defend the pythian cap, as to why you uprooted all of your forces. When the war first started you told me that if I did not withdraw you would suicide on me. Now you are doing so. I never claimed it was unsportsmanlike; merely that threatening to suicide against someone as a negotiating tactic is metagamey (as the value of such is generally to make others fear crossing you in future games), and that I am not moved by such threats.

"provinces west" was the original suggestion; when you were being more sorely pressed by pyth's armies, you had it that I would get those pythian territories you did not currently have; that included holburg. When suddenly Pythium was no threat, you certainly changed your tune on holburg, and started elbowing in on that other. Why was your scout prophet attacking a territory that even you agree was to have been mine?

As well to say my comment that I would be a friendly neighbour for your attack on pyth was "misleading" imputes a long pre-existing plan to attack you. There was none, and the decision to do so was only made the turn I attacked - due to your pushback on those scrawny lands that were to have been mine, due to privileged information as to your diplomatic activities, due to the war with pyth being over and so my being a free agent, and due to the one turn window whereby my dom extended over the pythian capital.

[Micah]

My threat to throw everything I had at you had nothing to do with metagaming. I was simply trying to break the double-team on me by threatening to go kamikaze on one of you, and I figured I had a much better chance of making a dent in you than I did in Pan, so you got the ultimatum. It didn't work, I was spread out and double teamed and eventually I lost a battle that effectively eliminated any chance I had at surviving more than a few more turns. At this point I'm just following through on what I said I'd do. I can see how you could frame me keeping my promises as metagaming, but some sort of reputation is unavoidable.

Let's just call this what it is. All of your supposed "reasons" for attacking me were fabrications, overreactions or very liberal interpretations of the truth. You decided you wanted to attack me and then went about looking for an excuse to do so, as opposed to the other way around. There's certainly nothing wrong with attacking someone in Dominions just because you feel like it, so why not just come out and say so? The aggrieved posturing is tiresome and dishonest.

Your assertion about my diplomacy is a complete fabrication. I never approached anyone about a joint attack against you. Pan approached ME with an offer to work together, but I had only indicated interest in it in a broad sense, and no targets had been chosen, and I told him that I would have to defer until I had Pythium in hand.

My prophet was attacking the territory in question because you didn't have any visible forces in range to take it and I didn't want to leave it uncontrolled since I didn't want a third party swooping in and taking it, as QM had already been asking after it. I sent you a message telling you that and letting you know I had set my commander to retreat so that I wouldn't take the province if you attacked it. You successfully took the territory in question with a scout that turn when my commander fled as ordered. I was also doing my diplo in a hurry since I didn't have a stable internet connection at the time and didn't get a response from you in time to get my turn in, hence the attack with retreat orders instead of not attacking at all.

Admittedly I would have happily taken some extra provinces if you had let me, (especially since you didn't do much fighting) but all you had to do was tell me that you were taking them per our agreement and I would have left them to you. I think skipping straight to a full-out attack because I asked who the province was going to is a bit of an extreme reaction, no?

I still have no idea what you're talking about with Holburg. As I said, I took it to preach there to kill Pythium, and you never asked about claiming it after that. I didn't build anything there or otherwise solidify my control of the province.

You were also not really a "free agent" when you attacked me, as we had agreed that I would get the Pythium capital as a result of the war, and I had yet to take it. Perhaps in some sense the letter of the agreement was fulfilled since I had control of the province, though not the fort, but it's clearly a mangling of the spirit of it. Additionally, I think most people would characterize an unannounced attack on someone you were working together with the turn before as at least somewhat underhanded.

Again, a sound tactic, but watching you try to cast me as the villain after you launched a sneak attack at me is quite irksome. You can trump up whatever pretexts you want, but at the end of the day you stabbed me in the back to try to get an advantage, which is fine. The farce of you pretending otherwise is what I take exception to.

[Lingchih]

Hey, umm, how is Shin doing?

[LDiCesare]

Shin? Do you mean Atlantis? I eventually breached the walls, although it took some time. Btw how did you lose your pretender? I had attacked Shinuyama because I saw hte dead pretender in the score graphs.