Vicious Circle2 Upload pretenders

[GrudgeBringer]

We will Use this thread for the game Forum.

Updated and corrected list of Players and Nations

GrudgeBringer Arco
Mule Warrior Ryleh
Eldanesh Ermor
Trumanator Pangea
Squirrelloid Calem
Bander Lover Kalisia
JR77 Fomoria
Kietsensal Hinnom
Ishamoridin Mictlan
Lihaassa Ulm
Shard Sauro
Aaminoff Helheim
Frozen Lama Tir-A-Nog
iainku Marverni
Fakey McFake Niefelheim
MscFish TC
Darvin Abysia
Cerain C'tis

[Ishamoridin]

Let's post which nation we've gone for, since there may be some confusion.

I'm Mictlan, I like long walks on the beach, lakes of blood and worshipping gods of questionable morality.

[JR77]

I chose Fomoria!

I just like cyclopean, seafaring giants with a pendant for death magic and Irish folklore...

[darvin]

I upload Abysia
FireLord

[Squirrelloid]

I'm Caelum.

I like cold drinks, high places, and getting caught in the rain.

[Lihaässä]

Hmmp.. JR77 - I already sent my Fomoria pretender. According to "recruiting" post you fight with Lanka.

I just look nasty and horse around.

[JR77]

Well, I can see that now, but I was under the impression, that whoever came first got their first priority? Have been playing a bit with Fomoria and have an interesting pretender design, which I would like to try out. Lanka, on the other hand, I have not had a chance to look at, so that would take me a while to come up with a pretender...

If you have experience playing Ulm, your second priority, I would greatly appreciate you swapping (also, perhaps you have more time experimenting, I am totally swamped irl these days and also have two other dom3 games which I subbed into).

Please let me/us know asap if you are willing to swap

[Eldanesh]

I represent Ermor. We look forward to working with you all for a better future, as dictated by our great prophet of the White Shroud.

[Trumanator]

Pan.

[Frozen Lama]

Darvin- the usual method is to sign up for nations first, then once nations are agreed upon, you upload. i'll leave it up to GB, and he'll probably let you play, but next time don't just upload a pretender without signing up first.

JR77- I'm sure GB had a method for assigning nations, and i'd like it if you would listen to him, but if Lihassa wants to switch, its all good.

btw, I am helping GB admin thus my air of authority. ;)

[Lihaässä]

I'll play with Ulm. Can I just send another pretender now? I'm trying to make new pretender asap, but it may take couple of hours. Anyway.. I'll be done during this evening +2GMT.

How about those winnig conditions, My suggestion is 50% of capitols for 3 turns.

[JR77]

Thanks Lama - it's always good with some authorataaaiii :)

Anyways, we worked it out via pm and I will play Fomoria (thanks Lihaässä).

Just for clarification, what map will we use?

[JR77]

No need to rush Lihaässä. I will not be able to upload pretender until sometime tonight (GMT+2). Also, Grudge probably have to remove Lanka and add Ulm and I don't know how iffy that is (I have yet to host (even play) an MP game on the server)...

[Lihaässä]

I just uploaded my Ulm pretender.

[GrudgeBringer]

OK we have 18..cerain was one of the first that black sun had in so I can't delete him he is playing C'tis

Darwin is also let in as Abysia

We are full and close together...If I had known that i would have chose a diffent Nation.

I fully expect EVEYONE to respect the 10 turn Nap I have with EVEYONE or until I feel its over....(lets see how far that goes):eek:

Your doing good getting those pretenders in, just a few more.

Make sure you have the map D/l and Cbm 1.5 enabled when you make your pretender.

Since we have 18 and a full slate I am inclined to NOT have 1 restart as I am sure someone will not be happy.

So unless i hear an uproar NOW that will be in effect.

ALSO, we need to decide on Victory conditions with this many...SUGGESTIONS anyone?:confused:

[Frozen Lama]

as far as victory conditions- in probably 90% of games, the winner is decided by concession of the remaining players, but just in case, lets keep it simple and make it 2/3 of the capitols. so 12 caps.

JR77- the map is dark heavens, GB made it a little confusing by making a new thread, but the link is in the older thread.

personally i'm not a fan of the 10 turn NAP on principle, but i can see why we have it. its great for Tir. ;)

and yeah, no restart you can't please everyone.

[Lihaässä]

Could you clarify this one? I fully expect EVEYONE to respect the 10 turn Nap I have with EVEYONE or until I feel its over We are not supposed to attack before turn 10?

[Frozen Lama]

assuming everyone is ok with that, it means no one can attack another player (excluding accidents) before turn 11. attack orders can be issued on turn 10.

[Trumanator]

Lame.

[GrudgeBringer]

I was jesting but the more I think about it as close as we are it sounds like a good idea...It will force some diplomacy and Rush nations will be blunted some.

So since Frozen also thinks its a good Idea also lets run with it...You may wage war on turn 11 (that's not negotiable).

I also think it will be settled by consensus but 12 caps for 3 turns will win it also.

PM me if you have any complaints as I don't want to start a long discussion between 18 guys in this thread.

We HAVE to be somewhat flexible with 18 players even tho the map was designed for 18.

Thanks to all for making this run smoothly in my first attempt to run a game.

Frozen llama is also helping Admin so feel free to ask him questions as he has the power to make decisions, grant extensions ect so no one can say they couldn't get ahold of someone. if its a Strange or big request we will put our heads together.

I have NEVER been a fan of rolling a turn back and with this many people it will cause Mayham....so unless its a game malfunction we live with it. Its YOUR responsibility to get a confirmation on Extensions. I would put it in the Forum and PM one of us.

Also, remember diplomacy is binding if put in the forum so don't forget to do that and NO CRYING on secret pacts, Naps, or treaties that get you stabbed in the back.:up:

[Frozen Lama]

just a heads up- trumanator and i will be traveling today and tomorrow, and may not have internet. if we do, its all good, but we may need a few hours so just maybe keep an eye on us please GB. the first turn is 48h by default so unless we get preteners really quick, we likely won't need more time.

[GrudgeBringer]

NP on that Llama and trumanator:D

[Frozen Lama]

NP on that Lama and trumanator:D

one L ;)

[mscfish]

as far as victory conditions- in probably 90% of games, the winner is decided by concession of the remaining players, but just in case, lets keep it simple and make it 2/3 of the capitols. so 12 caps.

JR77- the map is dark heavens, GB made it a little confusing by making a new thread, but the link is in the older thread.

personally i'm not a fan of the 10 turn NAP on principle, but i can see why we have it. its great for Tir. ;)

and yeah, no restart you can't please everyone.
10 turns NAP is a horror!
Noobs should fight! fight! fight! until we lost the last man!
PS:
I don't think it's a good choice for ea-tir to sign a 10 turns nap.Tir is so powerfull and it needn't sign any NAPS in early period of the game!

[Frozen Lama]

thanks for speaking up. me and GB have been discussing the NAP. the idea is so that someone in their first MP game doesn't die on turn 10 (which i've killed people on) and then decides dom MP is too much for them. but of course if a few more people speak up, we can change it. maybe a 7 turn one?

and Tir desperatly needs some basic research before it can kill anything. turns 20-50 are its best times

[GrudgeBringer]

We have had a lot of feed back on the 10 turn no attack rule.

While most agree that 10 turns is ok they have a valid concern i will address right now.

During the 10 turns you may NOT take a province that adjoins anothers capitol. If you get hemmed in prepare to fight your way out on turn 11.

As 1 guy said "The fastest Rush he had ever put on someone started about turn 7" so we are just slowing the rush nations by about 3 or 4 turns. Not that big of a deal.

PM me if you want to make a comment, I am always open to suggestions but a Number of players (mostly newer) are somewhat concerned about certain nations AND skill level differences.

This is the only way we could come up with a viable solution to make everyone feel 'secure' (at least for 10 turns), it should get real interesting after that!!:D

[GrudgeBringer]

I can live with a 7 turn but I promised a number of nations that they wouldn't be rushed right away and I won't break my word.

10 or 7 thats the options (the No taking adjoing provinces to capitols is still in effect)

[Squirrelloid]

how do you know you're taking a province adjoining a capitol if you don't already own a province adjacent to their capitol?

Also, i'd definitely be a fan of turn 7. Heck, i'd rather not have it at all, reduces the strategic options and decreases the learning experience of having to fend off a rush.

(I think it was Redwich i was attacked by Skaven on turn 5 or something ridiculous like that).

Edit: Which e-mail address do i send pretenders to again? Its been awhile and I forgot...

[GrudgeBringer]

We did this in another game and the way we settled it was simple....You take a Province next to a capitol in the first 7 turns you retreat and the other nation takes it back...all you did was clear out the indies for him.

NOW, it HAS happened that Nation A was going into province 39 (for example) and Nation B was going into it at the same time. If that happens then there is no malice and the best man wins (UNLESS its next to his capitol then you must retreat.)

Last scenario...you have taken one of the provinces around my capitol. You retreat as expected but I have an army somewhere else and don't do anything about it.

On turn 8 its YOURS and troops can be moved in.

This is important.....an adjacent province is onr that borders your Cap AND you can reach it in one turn. If there is a mountian, uncrosable river or any other obstacle that will not let you move DIRECTLY into the province it is NOT considered adjacent and is fair game.

Just use common sense IT HAS BEEN CHANED TO 7 TURNS and you can attack on turn 8.

SEND PRETENDER TO Pretenders@llamaserver.net

In the subject line you must put viciouscircle2 (just like that..no spaces) and send

[Ishamoridin]

Well I can't say I agree with a NAP, but I'll go with the consensus.

Remember guys, Rush nations are nations too ^.^

[GrudgeBringer]

There are 18 nations, I have had 8 REALLY want 10 turns and another 3 want some kind of Nap agianst a rush as this is there first game or whatever.

I have also had a couple of the more Vetern Players think it was a Ok to good Idea and they can take it or leave it.

And I remember my A** Whoopin in my first game and again when Ashod first came on the scene, so I guess i am for it in some form (at least for the real new guys).

We compromised and made it 7 turns...the rush nations will get stronger and the rushee's will still get attacked but I feel I did my best to accommodate 18 different opinions.

This is the first game I have adminned or put together.....18 is a lot of opinions to deal with.

However, I MUST say you guys have not given a bunch of grief, you have just stated your opinion and lived with it.

I just wanted to say THANK YOU ALL as I have seen games where it has gone on and on and on adnauseum.

We need about 4 more pretenders and we go!!:up:

[Eldanesh]

Early NAP automatically no I'm not a fan at all, that's silly.

That being said, Ermor is always looking for lots of BFFs :p

[Mule Warrior]

Oh no! NAP for 7 turns??

I was hoping to rush at least 2 nations in the first 8 turns with my Aboleths.

What??! They are only aquatic??? :doh:


:D

[Squirrelloid]

Early NAP automatically no I'm not a fan at all, that's silly.

That being said, Ermor is always looking for lots of BFFs :p

You used the stupid net acronym BFF - I must kill you now.

[GrudgeBringer]

Ok, I'll bite and show my Ignorance...What does BFF stand for?

I want to know If I need to kill him also!!!:p

[rdonj]

Best friend forever.

[Ishamoridin]

15 nations submitted!

Who's holding us back? Bring out the heathens!

[Eldanesh]

I was just sand boxing. I promise to have it submitted by tonight (so 2 hrs or less)

[GrudgeBringer]

Ohhhhhhhhh, guess I'll let my BFF live then!!!

Thanks

[Eldanesh]

Sorry guys I've had a billion problems setting it up because of vista, I know how to set it up on XP, so that's what I did. Pretender sent.

[JR77]

Pretender sent... Beware of mighty Balor :evil:!

[Lihaässä]

Whose pretender are we still waiting?

[GrudgeBringer]

GOOD JOB folks, we have 17 Pretenders in and are waiting on Ianuki (Marverni). I have sent him a PM and an E-mail but have had no response.

I also have a Pretender from Abysia yhat is from the last player selected.
However, I told him we where full and then sent him a PM that he was in and asking for him to respond that he was playing, I have not heard from him.

Frozen Lama and Trumanator both are out of town and will be back today.

I don't want to start the game without someone, but I also DO NOT want an AI starting the game.

If I don't get the Marverni pretender by the time they get back I will assume Marverni changed his mind and dismiss him (I will send him another norice).

What is the feeling on Abysia, he sent in a pretender without asking to join (he truly is new) but has not responded to query's from me. Should I include him when we start on the premise that he is in, or delete him so someone doesn't get a free Fort by him staling and holding up the game (I will PM him agian also)?

My feeling is they both go if no response.

I am asking for some feedback from you guys (although i think I already know the answer).

[JR77]

I agree with your point of view Grudge.

[mscfish]

I think if aby dont response,we'd better get him out of the game.

[Ishamoridin]

Yeah, don't start with someone who may or may not be actually playing.

Especially Abysia ¬.¬

[Squirrelloid]

GOOD JOB folks, we have 17 Pretenders in and are waiting on Ianuki (Marverni). I have sent him a PM and an E-mail but have had no response.

That would be because Iainuki is/was currently sleeping! (may be awake as of this post, but only just barely). I'm sure its just a matter of some testing before the pretender is in. Let me assure you Iainuki intends to play.[/QUOTE]

[Lihaässä]

Righto.. We have all essential 18 pretenders! Bring it on!

[Ishamoridin]

Who turned autostart off? >.<

[GrudgeBringer]

I turned the auto start off...

Marverni should be in as he PM'd me and said he just forgot due to exhaustion.

I turned it off because Trumanator AND Frozen Lama are out of town until Today (I hope) and they said they would E-mail me on the way home. We can wait a couple of hours for them.

My bigger concern is Abysia...

He is the one who sent in a pretender and never asked to join the game. I PM'd him and told him we where full but when Cerain joined we decided to go ahead and let him in.

He has never acknowledged that he is in or out...

I thought I would wait until I heard from Tru and Lama and if he hasn't contacted me I will delete his pretender and start the game.

That sound Fair to all?

[Ishamoridin]

Sounds fair to me.

[darvin]

abissia i m in game! )

[darvin]

I turned the auto start off...

Marverni should be in as he PM'd me and said he just forgot due to exhaustion.

I turned it off because Trumanator AND Frozen Lama are out of town until Today (I hope) and they said they would E-mail me on the way home. We can wait a couple of hours for them.

My bigger concern is Abysia...

He is the one who sent in a pretender and never asked to join the game. I PM'd him and told him we where full but when Cerain joined we decided to go ahead and let him in.

He has never acknowledged that he is in or out...

I thought I would wait until I heard from Tru and Lama and if he hasn't contacted me I will delete his pretender and start the game.

That sound Fair to all?
Hello!
Abysia
I will play ! )

[GrudgeBringer]

Ok Darwin, your in...read this forum as there are some rules that we have come up with and you should know about them.

If you have any questions just ask someone as I think they are all aware of what tthey are and how they work or yoy can PM me and we will talk about it.

Just waiting now for Trumanator and Frozen Lama to report...anyone know what time zone they are in?

[GrudgeBringer]

I need a Nap before Rugby Practice...

Will check in before leaving and don't worry we won't wait too long for them as they will have 24 hours to do their turns.

[GrudgeBringer]

I was just getting ready to Push the button and start the game when one of the players E-mailed me asking where the Map was.

Now I am not sure if he had 1.5 enabled when he sent in his pretender as he is very new.

Excuse me for yelling please...

DOES EVERYONE HAVE THE DARKHEAVENS MAP D/L AND DID YOU HAVE CBM 1.5 ENABLED WHEN YOU MADE YOUR PRETENDER.

Thanks you...

I am off to Rugby practice and IF he responds that he is ready I am going to kick this thing off.

[Frozen Lama]

OK guys, i'm back! i went ahead and started the game. 48h for the first turn. good luck all.

[Kietsensei]

Just one question: where can you download this damn map??
I cannot find it on this forum and the llamaserver site has the map in the list but no download link.

[Mule Warrior]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=670477&postcount=45

[GrudgeBringer]

I am having trouble with the TRN file.

I put it in my Saved games folder but it doesn't show up in games.

Any suggestions as this has never happened before.

[GrudgeBringer]

DUH!!! Nevermind:doh:

[Eldanesh]

Hey! Me too! No I did not create my god while I had the map dark havens as I was led to believe it was cradle we were playing... I wouldn't think the maps make a difference anyways...

[GrudgeBringer]

Map doesn't matter as long as you have it..

In your saved game file (sorry if I am being to basic)

Go to computer, local files, Program files, dominions3, saved game and put your TRN file in there.

Make a file that says VisiousCircle2 (no spaces) and put the TRN file in there.

Should work like a charm

it will make a 2H file that is the file you send in.

[Eldanesh]

Yes I knew how to do it so I was a bit confounded.

Yes, there was a space in the name of my folder...

[aaminoff]

Folks were posting what nations they ended up picking... will there eventually be a master list of who is who?

I'm Helheim. Er, I think our sprites look cooler than all of y'alls. Also I have small children so I may be slow with turns sometimes.

[GrudgeBringer]

If you go to the first thread Visious Circle 2 Recruiting

The list is there except Fomoria is Ulm and Lanks is Fomoria rest should be correct

[GrudgeBringer]

Edanesh....LOL, that was my problem also!!

[Squirrelloid]

The trn file would of course be sent right after I left my computer for the night... (in the middle of moving - its complicated)

[Cerain]

Ok, the game is rolling ;P

[Ishamoridin]

Are we running on a 48h host or is that just for turn 1?

[Fakeymcfake]

Just for turn one I believe. Also, I'll be out of town this weekend so I'd appreciate it if when turn 2 does roll around and it looks as though I won't be able to get mine in before hosting if you could delay the game say 12 hours or so.

[Ishamoridin]

Hey GB, is there any chance you'd be able to make a list of players and nations at the start of this thread? It'd save about 10 minutes every time we want to know who's who :P

[Frozen Lama]

the hosting time will go back to 24h after the first turn.

fakey-gotcha, me and GB will make sure you don't stale.

[Fakeymcfake]

Thanks, oh and I'm Nief if anyone was wondering. Alternatively to makeing a new list just link to the old list in the other thread.

[Frozen Lama]

ok here's the link- remember formoria is Ulm, and Lanka is Formoria

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=705297&postcount=40

[Squirrelloid]

Does Hinnom even know he's playing? How complicated can Hinnom turn 1 be?

[Squirrelloid]

Grudgebringer, could you please update the first post of this thread with the forum names and nations of all participants? If this is going to be the active game thread then that information should be right up front where its easy to find so conducting diplomacy is *actually possible*.

[Kietsensei]

The sons of the Nephilim were busy feastering. Now that we are done with diner, we are ready to go out and find new exotic flesh.

[GrudgeBringer]

Forum has been updated to reflect all Players and their Nations.

My apologies if I misspelled any ones name or nation as I whipped this out right before leaving town for the day.

[iainuki]

GrudgeBringer, just to make it easier on people who want to contact me, my spelling is "Iainuki." No big deal, just get to it when you can?

[Squirrelloid]

I was going to wait until monday to point out he also managed to misspell my name. The easy part too... (Squirrelloid). I mean, "squirrel" is the easy part, right?

[GrudgeBringer]

Picky picky gentlemen....

With a name like Grudgebringer (GrungeBringer,GrudeBringer, Grudbriner) I just answer to anything.

But for PM purposes I will go in and change your names, thanks for pointing it out as it could have honestly been a problem in Diplomacy later.

[GrudgeBringer]

I guess one rule begets another....

I have had a number of people query me on if this is OK or that is OK, and most are pretty obvious answers.

But I HAVE had a couple of questions that really did take me by surprise as I thought I had this 7 nap rule thing down (best laid plans etc)

You stealth Nations...you can NOT enter, go thru, or sit in any one's Provinces (including ANY around the Capitols) before the 8th turn. In other words you can't prepare to attack a nation and be in his lands waiting for the word GO...

The question "What if they do that and just wait till turn 9 and THEN attack". Well, we have 18 people, some will be honorable, some won't, I can't enforce things I can't see or know. We just have to depend on each player to play it straight.

This came up also (although its a little early and don't think it will matter i will address it), NORMAL scouts are OK to enter ANYONES lands before turn 8. However, Nothing that can cause harm or detriment to a nation either THEN or before turn 8 can enter.

I think that about covers it....:up:

[GrudgeBringer]

I waited as long as I could before delaying hosting 12 hours for Fakey McFake as he had requested it yesterday.

I think (hope) once we get thru this weekend we will get rolling pretty fast.:D

[Ishamoridin]

likewise, my name is spelled Ishamoridin

[Ishamoridin]

Also, does the 'province next to capital' rule apply when it's a land province next to a sea capital or vice versa?

[Cerain]

GrudgeBringer, you aren't making possible me to buy any mercenary all are for you.:envy: ;) I loved the barbarians xD

[GrudgeBringer]

I would say since there is only 1 water nation that any land nation that can go into the water May NOT take a water province next to the Water nations Capitol.

But a land nation CAN take ANY land province that is not next to a Land capitol as water nations have mostly free expansion.

That's MY take....any other opinions (that never entered ny mind).

[GrudgeBringer]

Man....excuse the spelling people, I am trying to do 3 things at once and am barely looking at what I am writing.:doh:

[aaminoff]

If everyone gets their turn 3s in in the next few hours, it is conceivable that I will need extra time for turn 4 as I may not have even a few minutes to do my next turn before Tuesday morning. However I think there is only about a 10% chance that this will be a problem.

[GrudgeBringer]

I will check when I go to the Gym in the Morning (about 9 Hours), if everyone has thier turn in I will postpone it 12 hours but get it in as soon as you can so no one starts yelling

[Trumanator]

Seriously Grudge, all these complications and clarifications are just another reason why NOT to have no-rush rules... I will respect them, but noobs need to learn that rushing is part of the game.

[Frozen Lama]

well after seeing my neighbors, i'm cool with the rush rules ;)

my real reason for posting- i will be gone for 3 days starting tomorrow, so Valerius will be subbing for me.

[Fakeymcfake]

The rush rules will only apply for a few more turns anyhow and it'll at least make things sporting when there is conflict. 'sides, as someone who's first game was ended on turn 8 I can appreciate how frustrating that can be.

[Squirrelloid]

Someone's game may still end on turn 8.

*strokes goatee evilly*

[GrudgeBringer]

But I like everybody, I am just gonna sit over here and not bother anyone...if you guys will let me, REALLY.:angel

[Kietsensei]

Hinnom like everybody as well. But the more fat and juicy, the better :D

[Squirrelloid]

I don't understand why we keep waiting on *one* person for turns. Seriously, its turn 3, it shouldn't take 24h to take that turn. (It only took me so long because I *moved* yesterday, and was too exhausted to set up my computer until this morning - and by so long i mean taken and submitted like 4h ago).

[mscfish]

Hinnom like everybody as well. But the more fat and juicy, the better :D

What a "kindly" hinnom!

Devils often say:We are not dangerous,and we love peace.We are the best friends of human beings.

:)

[mscfish]

I don't understand why we keep waiting on *one* person for turns. Seriously, its turn 3, it shouldn't take 24h to take that turn. (It only took me so long because I *moved* yesterday, and was too exhausted to set up my computer until this morning - and by so long i mean taken and submitted like 4h ago).

24H is the rules.So we should keep it.

[Squirrelloid]

I don't understand why we keep waiting on *one* person for turns. Seriously, its turn 3, it shouldn't take 24h to take that turn. (It only took me so long because I *moved* yesterday, and was too exhausted to set up my computer until this morning - and by so long i mean taken and submitted like 4h ago).

24H is the rules.So we should keep it.

Yes, but its quickhost. People should try to take their turns quickly.

Also, Sauromatia staled. There's no excuse for staling on turn 3.

[shard]

Sorry, unexpected spent a night at the hospital. Anyway, turn is in.

[Squirrelloid]

I would like to point out that every capitol has a crown, so you know where all the capitols are. There's no excuse for taking a province next to an opposing capitol.

(As long as we're going to have an NAP, we might as well enforce it realistically).

[mscfish]

I would like to point out that every capitol has a crown, so you know where all the capitols are. There's no excuse for taking a province next to an opposing capitol.

(As long as we're going to have an NAP, we might as well enforce it realistically).

Just a tip.
Crown means the VP.
I think GB setted that 1 VP per capital.
So in our game,crowns indicate the capital.
But if there isn't such a set ,crown doesn't mean Capital,it only means Vp.
:)

[aaminoff]

> unexpected spent a night at the hospital

I hope you are OK now. Best wishes for your health.

[mscfish]

Sorry, unexpected spent a night at the hospital. Anyway, turn is in.

Cast gift oh health!
Be quick!:D

[Squirrelloid]

I would like to point out that every capitol has a crown, so you know where all the capitols are. There's no excuse for taking a province next to an opposing capitol.

(As long as we're going to have an NAP, we might as well enforce it realistically).

Just a tip.
Crown means the VP.
I think GB setted that 1 VP per capital.
So in our game,crowns indicate the capital.
But if there isn't such a set ,crown doesn't mean Capital,it only means Vp.
:)

Well, yes. But for the purposes of this game, every capitol has a VP.

[Trumanator]

Hmm, I wonder what strategy guide Caelum read :rolleyes:

[Squirrelloid]

Hmm, I wonder what strategy guide Caelum read :rolleyes:

zOMG, hax!

Besides, if you know what I'm doing, you should be able to hand me my *** on a plate, right?

Edit: Speaking of openings choices - some of you whom have apparently taken strong blesses really surprise me. As in, complete failure to comprehend what you were thinking. I can't wait to see what those blesses actually are. (Some of you who seem not to have taken a strong bless *also* completely surprise me).

mmmm... Graphs on. It gives you so much information.

[Trumanator]

What would make you think that some people have strong blesses? And just because I know what your opener is doesn't mean that I can do anything about it at this point. I'm just going to enjoy watching it crash and burn.

[Squirrelloid]

What would make you think that some people have strong blesses?

I don't know about you, but poor income and poor research tend to imply bad scales and no awake research pretender to me. Which means one of two things: (1) Strong Bless, or (2) expensive awake SC. Now, with so many cheap awake SC options, its hard to understand what would motivate someone to tank their scales for it. Also, they'd probably have a turn 1 research boost if they invested a lot of magic in an awake SC, which is the only way it'd be expensive. (I didn't notice anyone take a province turn 1, did you?)

You can come to your own conclusions about who's being crazy by playing a strong bless. However, one turn's worth of observation may be insufficient to ID some of them (or cause false IDs) - and the signal's getting weaker now that people are on different expansion trajectories.

And just because I know what your opener is doesn't mean that I can do anything about it at this point. I'm just going to enjoy watching it crash and burn.

Our seat cushions can be used as flotation devices in the event of a water landing!

[Fakeymcfake]

I think you're reading too much into the graphs for such an early point of the game. It's only turn 5 after all and everyone is still busy gobbling up the indy provinces. Priorities shift and in a game like this long term goals are just as important as short term, don't judge the artist until they're finished the piece.

[Trumanator]

So in other words- "Yes, I did not take a bless strat, I'm playing for the long term."

[Squirrelloid]

I think you're reading too much into the graphs for such an early point of the game. It's only turn 5 after all and everyone is still busy gobbling up the indy provinces. Priorities shift and in a game like this long term goals are just as important as short term, don't judge the artist until they're finished the piece.

No, early is the best time to read a lot into the graphs because there's very little noise in the signal. Absolutely zero at the end of turn 1 unless someone felt risky and took a province successfully right away (which also says something about what they did...).

In a 100% gold game everyone starts with 400 income in their capitol. As upkeep isn't deducted from the 'income' score graph that is indeed an absolute number. Anyone with income significantly less than 400 has chosen negative scales in excess of positive, which means they're spending points elsewhere - ie, pretender chassis and/or magic. Truly low early income means they've really sacked their scales and almost certainly have a strong bless or an awake and expensive pretender (ie, rainbow SC).

This is absolutely guaranteed unless your opponent is a moron. They had to spend those points somewhere, and there's only so many places you can spend points. (I mean, we can imagine someone sacked their scales and then *didn't* spend those points on anything, but then we're assuming that person is stupid.)

Basically, deduction and the process of elimination can use the graph reports (especially llamaservers nice numerical rundown) to conclude quite a bit about pretender design for each player. I've only talked about scales thus far - other ratings can easily give away choices made in pretender design. I leave that as an exercise to the reader, but I would bet off the llamaserver rundown after turns 1 and 2 I could tell you the quality of your scales, what type of pretender you're playing, and ballpark your dominion rating without too much difficulty. Add some knowledge of your unit set and I might even be able to make specific guesses at magic paths and scale choices.

If you wait to read anything into the score graph then the noise starts swamping the signal and you lose a lot of information. (What quality provinces do you control? How many turns did you hire mages, and how many of them are doing research? Etc...).

[shard]

> unexpected spent a night at the hospital

I hope you are OK now. Best wishes for your health.



Thank you, it was a friend who had far too much to drink then was good for him. Think 'stomach pump'... All good now though.

[Lihaässä]

To Squirrelloid> You still consider yourself a n00b? ;) Btw. I was supprised how much players are willing to pay for mercs.. since I bid quite alot and I still didn't get any. hmmm

[Cerain]

I hve a big impression with some nation who has a large power in the research I don't understand how, but there is incredible.

[Squirrelloid]

To Squirrelloid> You still consider yourself a n00b? ;) Btw. I was supprised how much players are willing to pay for mercs.. since I bid quite alot and I still didn't get any. hmmm

How does the ability to use logic effect how skilled I am at the game? Seriously, I don't even need to have ever played the game to guess pretender builds based on turns 2+3 graphs. Its just pure logic. (Ok, it does require looking at the pretender building mechanics - which doesn't actually require playing the game).

Rules mastery =/= play skill.

(This is my 5th MP game, 3 others of which are still going, and thus not ended, and Nox ended rather suddenly in the early game for silly reasons - a game in which I made a mistake *turn 1*. I have yet to even make it to an endgame, much less play one).

[aaminoff]

Thanks for opening up the discussion about gleaning info from the score graphs. I wanted to earlier, but I didn't quite dare.

So... I find it surprising that I'm the only one who took 2 provinces on turn 2, and no-one took any provinces on turn 1. Is that normal? I mean, surely if you have an awake SC pretender you would expect them to be able to take any indy province single-handed, right? So you should send them out "blind" on turn 1.

[Kietsensei]

Thanks for opening up the discussion about gleaning info from the score graphs. I wanted to earlier, but I didn't quite dare.

So... I find it surprising that I'm the only one who took 2 provinces on turn 2, and no-one took any provinces on turn 1. Is that normal? I mean, surely if you have an awake SC pretender you would expect them to be able to take any indy province single-handed, right? So you should send them out "blind" on turn 1.

Well there are a few indy that you do not wish to meet wih your SC pretender early: the lizard shaman can ruin your day with a single curse, horde of berserker barbarians or undead will just ignore your awe and may inflict you some early unwanted affliction. And lastly, I never feel comfortable when I have to face a full charge of knights when I am naked ;)

[Fakeymcfake]

Essentially what Kiet said. You're probably going to be fine, but is it really worth risking your long term plans just to take one province before everyone else?

[aaminoff]

Proposed Treaty of Non-Aggression between Helheim and Marverni:

- forces of parties will not enter provinces owned by each other, or independent provinces in the defined sphere of influence of the counterparty.

- Spheres of influence are defined by province-count-distance to capitals. A province closer to one nation's capital than the other is in that nation's sphere of influence. Provinces equidistant from both capitals is in neither sphere of influence; in effect they are first come first served.

- termination: this NAP will last until turn 12. (for simplicity. Helheim is quite willing to negotiate other arrangements later to extend it)

Marverni, please indicate in this thread your agreement.

Note: this is a quick version of this, as we have not had time to work out more detailed terms. I can live with it, I am happy to negotiate additional terms later.

[Frozen Lama]

I want to see war now people! Its turn 7, issue your attack orders now!

[aaminoff]

Treaty of Nigh-Eternal Friendship and Cooperation
between Abysia and Helheim

- forces of parties will not enter provinces owned by each other, or independent provinces in the defined sphere of influence of the counterparty.
- parties will not deliberately attempt to push dominion into one anothers territory
- parties will not cast deleterious ritual spells upon one another

Spheres of influence: Abysia's sphere of influence includes provinces 221 239 242 and areas north and west. Helheim's sphere of influence is the provinces south and east of those. Provinces east and southwest of this border are not defined to lie in either sphere of influence; therefore according to the letter of this treaty whoever occupies such provinces first gets them thenceforth.

Termination:
After two (2) pretenders have been eliminated, either party may announce the treaty's termination. Three (3) turns from this announcement, the treaty shall be null and void.

Signed by Helheim

[darvin]

Treaty of Nigh-Eternal Friendship and Cooperation
between Abysia and Helheim

- forces of parties will not enter provinces owned by each other, or independent provinces in the defined sphere of influence of the counterparty.
- parties will not deliberately attempt to push dominion into one anothers territory
- parties will not cast deleterious ritual spells upon one another

Spheres of influence: Abysia's sphere of influence includes provinces 221 239 242 and areas north and west. Helheim's sphere of influence is the provinces south and east of those. Provinces east and southwest of this border are not defined to lie in either sphere of influence; therefore according to the letter of this treaty whoever occupies such provinces first gets them thenceforth.

Termination:
After two (2) pretenders have been eliminated, either party may announce the treaty's termination. Three (3) turns from this announcement, the treaty shall be null and void.

Signed by Helheim

Signed by Abysia

[Frozen Lama]

i can tell at least one of us is a lawyer in real life.......... that's the most wordy treaty i've ever seen. ;)

[Squirrelloid]

Frozen Lama: I believe that 7 turn NAP applies to orders from this turn, but what do I know...

[Frozen Lama]

it is turn 7 now. massive assualts across the world should hit on turn 8 attack orders can be issued this turn

[aaminoff]

Honestly, I doubt people who are lawyers in real life would enjoy being wordy in games. I just like being pompous and formal. And it saves on issues of interpretation later, which is good since these are actually inviolable according to game rules if posted here.

I'm surprised we are not seeing more of them... Do we smell blood in the water?

[iainuki]

Proposed Treaty of Non-Aggression between Helheim and Marverni:

- forces of parties will not enter provinces owned by each other, or independent provinces in the defined sphere of influence of the counterparty.

- Spheres of influence are defined by province-count-distance to capitals. A province closer to one nation's capital than the other is in that nation's sphere of influence. Provinces equidistant from both capitals is in neither sphere of influence; in effect they are first come first served.

- termination: this NAP will last until turn 12. (for simplicity. Helheim is quite willing to negotiate other arrangements later to extend it)

Marverni, please indicate in this thread your agreement.

Note: this is a quick version of this, as we have not had time to work out more detailed terms. I can live with it, I am happy to negotiate additional terms later.

I am quite happy to agree to this. Let's talk more in PMs.

[Squirrelloid]

There are disadvantages to public treaties - ie, everyone knows who you're allied with. Secret alliances let you surprise enemies. That said, you also run the risk of being stabbed. Costs and benefits, such as it were.

[shard]

You will find that diplomacy will take up a lot of your turn time, so while it might be fun at first, later on it may just become a hassle.

[GrudgeBringer]

I have found that if you have a reputation as one who ALWAYS honors his word either public or privite (even at the risk of losing the game)that you will get better tratys, trade agreements, and allies instead of Nap mates.

Diplomacy a hassle? Perhaps for some, but for me its a way playing the game and it works for me. :up:

[shard]

I mean a hassle as in the time input that is necessary to conduct good diplomacy. You may end up spending more time making deals and trying to draft 'water-tight' treaties than you do making your turns. It also adds more stress and pressure (ie player burnout) if you aren't used to it, particularly if English isn't your first language or you happen to be in a line of work where you draft contracts :p
Certainly it was something I wasn't expecting when I started and I think its only fair to warn others about it.




I have found that if you have a reputation as one who ALWAYS honors his word either public or privite (even at the risk of losing the game)that you will get better tratys, trade agreements, and allies instead of Nap mates.

Diplomacy a hassle? Perhaps for some, but for me its a way playing the game and it works for me. :up:

[Trumanator]

Or you could just keep things simple, and solve problems when you get to them. Most of my diplo consists of "Don't attack each other w/out X turns of warning" and some trading.

[Cerain]

I think the diplomacy could be very funy.

[Eldanesh]

Ugh... My e-mail must have messed up yesterday because I swear I at least tried to e-mail my 2h file, and I definitely did my turn. This is worse because it's early game 8(.

[Kietsensei]

I think diplomacy is one of the most interesting thing in a dominion mp game :)

[mscfish]

Honestly, I doubt people who are lawyers in real life would enjoy being wordy in games. I just like being pompous and formal. And it saves on issues of interpretation later, which is good since these are actually inviolable according to game rules if posted here.

I'm surprised we are not seeing more of them... Do we smell blood in the water?

rain!blood!rain of blood!blood of rain!
I felt it,i smelt it!
Sheep must die!

[mscfish]

I mean a hassle as in the time input that is necessary to conduct good diplomacy. You may end up spending more time making deals and trying to draft 'water-tight' treaties than you do making your turns. It also adds more stress and pressure (ie player burnout) if you aren't used to it, particularly if English isn't your first language or you happen to be in a line of work where you draft contracts :p
Certainly it was something I wasn't expecting when I started and I think its only fair to warn others about it.




I have found that if you have a reputation as one who ALWAYS honors his word either public or privite (even at the risk of losing the game)that you will get better tratys, trade agreements, and allies instead of Nap mates.

Diplomacy a hassle? Perhaps for some, but for me its a way playing the game and it works for me. :up:

I see you are a japanese.:) Maybe the language did make some very little troubles.So did i.But the diplomacy is part of the game,it's funny and very worth reading,there're too many informations.:)

[mscfish]

Ugh... My e-mail must have messed up yesterday because I swear I at least tried to e-mail my 2h file, and I definitely did my turn. This is worse because it's early game 8(.

What a pity.
Next time,before you close the dom3,check the llama websites.:)

[GrudgeBringer]

Gentlemen, agianst your better judgement I allowed Hinnom in the game, NOW (LOL), he id right under my position and attacking me.

I can hold out for a while but he will prevail. Caelem is sitting this one out.

Any one that wants to help stop him before he becomes a juggarnaut might want to nip at his heals some as he will be tied up in the top to middle North Eastern section fighting me.

His cap is in(I believe)#19 and his provinces that I know of are 32 31 17 7, that leaves around 3 unaccounted for.

I will try and slow him down and fight a guerilla war till the end.

Frozen Lama is now ADMIN.

I hold no ill will towards Hinnom as he has been honest and upfront with the negotiations the whole time and this will not carry over into any other games (my word). However, if you take him out....I wouldn't mind that either.:up:

[Frozen Lama]

assuming your province #'s are right, that would be the South eastern part of the map

[GrudgeBringer]

Yeah for his original territory, Capitol etc...

I was talking about where the fighting will be taking place....that be MY area in the middle NE section:eek:

[GrudgeBringer]

Grrrrrrrrrrr, I was just thinking....

I will have spent more time on the rules of this game than playing it.

I havn't gone out this fast since my fIRST game (19 turns). Maybe I'll set a personal best AND learn to listen to you guys next time!!!

[aaminoff]

Hey GB, look on the bright side, you now have a good chunk of experience admining, which will be handy later. Thanks for taking the initiative to get this game going - without you we would all still have been sitting around in the original thread hoping someone would step up. Thanks to Lama for being willing to take over as admin.

[GrudgeBringer]

Actually, your right...

I have always wanted to know how to create a game but was just too Lazy/worried about trying it.

There are 2 things I have learned in this whole process.

1.Pick a plan and hold to it.

2. LISTEN to people about the game, Decide whether they are making suggestions to further their own style of play, or trying to make an even playing field. Then when you make your decision be prepared to live with it and take responsibility.

(I 'think' I picked the right map, got a good mix of REAL new guys, kinda new guys, and medium level guys.

I liked the idea of the 7 turn NAP at the start to help the real new guys.

HOWEVER, When I decided to let Hinnom play in a NOOB game I wanted a REAL new guy to play it and didn't listen to Squirrelliod, Trumanator, and others that Hinnom should be banned.

I took a guy that was a private with 23 posts...but I forgot to see when he actually JOINED this forum. MY BAD, and I am paying the price.

Next game I will listen more closely and check things a little better.

LOL, but it WILL be next game cause I am pretty much outta here!!!

Thanks to all of you for trusting Lama and I to make a game that you spend your time with.

I will be around till the last shot is fired but Lama will Admin from here on out so PM him if you need an extension.:up:

[Kietsensei]

Just to make thing clear: whatever nation I could have had I would have attacked you. It wasn't because I am playing Hinnom This was only a matter of bad starting location. I only had a choice to make: to face lightning bolt (and now thunderstrike) spamming or slingers protected by peltasts... Anyone at my place would have made the same choice.

To all the lord of lands, I am sure you are more than happy to see the rephaims using all their ressources into an early war and despite what the prophet of Arcocephale claimed he hasn't lost yet. He is trying to draw you into a war that isn't yours. Don't be fooled by this and rather pay attention to your neighbours. As the sons of the fallen Grigori, our might draw people's attention but don't forget that there are other nations that are as powerful or will become more dangerous in the futur. And we all know that despite any friendship and alliance treaty, there can be only one winner...
Now if you would excuse me, it is lunch time and I am eager to taste arco's steak.

Kokb'ael, prophet of Keldanor

[GrudgeBringer]

NOT SO Mighty Hinnom,

If you would have been another nation, you would have dashed yourselves on my walls, as I received a 3000 Gold event that allowed me to continue to buy Mercs and still research.

I threw everything I had at you and drove you back....but didn't manage to kill your 1 Melquat.

This next turn (as you are reinforced will tell the story.

The scores show you have a minimum of 11 Provinces, You have the resources at this stage to do what you want.

You may have convinced or made a devils agreement with Caelem who should be fighting next to me to contain you, but there are others that KNOW the danger of Hinnom, AND know I don't call for help...I warn others of impending danger.

My game is over as I can't defend against your few but POWERFUL troops, others may want to stop you NOW as you said " you have no where to go but North", which means you have already taken the South.

I don't want to draw anybody into anything, the people I know in here can think for themselves and remember, they already knew the danger of Hinnom as they advised me NOT to allow it in the game.

Good luck to you, but I think your going to find the more veteran players will not stand still like Calem was forced to.

[aaminoff]

Treaty of Nigh-Eternal Friendship and Cooperation
between Fomoria and Helheim

- forces of parties will not enter provinces owned by each other
- parties will not deliberately attempt to push dominion into one anothers territory
- parties will not cast deleterious ritual spells upon one another

Termination:
After two (2) pretenders have been eliminated, either party may announce the treaty's termination. Three (3) turns from this announcement, the treaty shall be null and void.

Signed by Helheim

[Ishamoridin]

If you're out Gurdge, Diana Ross would not turn down and resources you have remaining.

I would pledge to avenge you if you did ^.^

[Eldanesh]

Why can't we be friends, why can't we be friiieeennnds?

[JR77]

Treaty of Nigh-Eternal Friendship and Cooperation
between Fomoria and Helheim

- forces of parties will not enter provinces owned by each other
- parties will not deliberately attempt to push dominion into one anothers territory
- parties will not cast deleterious ritual spells upon one another

Termination:
After two (2) pretenders have been eliminated, either party may announce the treaty's termination. Three (3) turns from this announcement, the treaty shall be null and void.

Signed by Helheim

Signed by Fomoria!

[shard]

I see you are a japanese.:) Maybe the language did make some very little troubles.So did i.But the diplomacy is part of the game,it's funny and very worth reading,there're too many informations.:)


Actually I'm not Japanese and while not my first language, my English is passable.

However I do have some Japanese friends who are into these types of games and are technically very good strategists but the need for complex diplomacy would put them at a severe disadvantage.

[Ishamoridin]

Non-Aggression pact between Mictlan and R'lyeh

-No attacking provinces owned by one another.

-No pushing Dominion into each other's territories.

-No casting harmful rituals at each other's provinces.



Signed by Mictlan

[Eldanesh]

So I have not received the turn 10 file, even after requesting a resend...

[JR77]

I had to request resend for #9 - try to request again, I think it is not entirely reliable atm...

[GrudgeBringer]

I will try and send turn 10 to you Eldanesh..PM Frozen Lama if it doesn't work.:up:

[GrudgeBringer]

I resent Ermor turn just now, let me know if you don't get it...If I remember right Frozen Lama is out of town which might be the reason.

I still in the game so while I have turned the Admin over to him I still have the password and will help out to keep the game running smooth until.....the last Myrmidon bites the dust.

[Frozen Lama]

I'm still here!!! i will be watching the hosting time, and if someone is about to stale because of this, i'll delay for them no worries ;)

[GrudgeBringer]

Ahhhhh, sorry for stepping in, I thought you where gone for 3 days...Must have been Trumanator.

[aaminoff]

A couple notes about formal treaties posted in the forum. According to game rules, they are binding, so we need to all be on the same page about what they mean.

The treaties that I have with Abysia, Marverni, and Fomoria, all specify

forces of parties will not enter provinces owned by each other


Note that there is no exception made for stealthy units, so according to these treaties stealthers are blocked.

Also, the agreement between Mictlan and Rlyeh has no termination clause, this means it is permanent and can not be gotten rid of by any means.

Which just goes to show that sometimes what is not there matters as much as what is there.

- Alex, Helheim

[Trumanator]

Don't mistake these for legal contracts. Also, don't presume to tell other nations what they can/can't do in their treaties unrelated to you. If Mictlan and R'lyeh decide to end their treaty, they are completely within their rights to do so. Noone should have the right to complain about a nation's conduct except those directly involved. Any loopholes, exceptions, etc. should be dealt with between the parties, preferably in private.

[Mule Warrior]

R'Lyeh has not signed any formal treaty with Mictlan or any other nation.

[GrudgeBringer]

My take (and my take won't matter for long...

Treaties whether in private or public consist of what IS said rather than what isn't said.

There are SOME norms though, Nothing can be sent into your Provinces that can cause harm to the province nor Dominion as this is counted as an act of war.

Since most of the treaties I have seen are very specific and complicated, I have a couple of words for you...SIMPLIFY THEM.

Say Trumanator and I had a treaty negotiation and he played a stealth Nation.

It might go something like this: I (Arco) propose a 3 turn nap to begin on turn 11.

No stealth armies may pass thru my territories unless permission is granted and nothing other than regular scouts can enter each others territory.

He might reply with " I would like province #23,45,and 55 and you take #29,45,52 as our territorial line.

DONE.

We know: How Long, Boundaries, and Special considerations.

If we put it public we run the risk of other Nations knowing where we are..BUT we will have to hold to it.

If we don't put it public, we run the risk of it being broken when convienient by one of the parties and NO whining is allowed.

KNOW WHO YOU ARE DEALING WITH, and that only comes from expieriance.

Don't get caught up with what is not said...if in doubt ASK.

Trumanator is correct, ALL these negotiations should be done in privite as we don't need to know any more than you want us to.

We all form reputations, there are 4 or 5 in here that I would trust if they just said "you want a Nap 3" and I would know they would never break it and would not abuse it.

THATS a good feeling in these games.

My opinion of course:up:

[Fakeymcfake]

Anyhow, having an unbreakable agreement in a game where at some point you likely will have to go to war is silly. Dominions isn't a game for polytheists, this is Highlander rules.

[aaminoff]

Treaty of Nigh-Eternal Friendship and Cooperation
between Niefelheim and Helheim

- forces of parties will not enter provinces owned by each other, or independent provinces in the defined sphere of influence of the counterparty.
- parties will not deliberately attempt to push dominion into one anothers territory
- parties will not cast deleterious ritual spells upon one another

Spheres of influence: Niefelheim's sphere of influence includes provinces 207, 180, and 168 and areas east. Helheim's sphere of influence is the provinces west and north of those. Provinces south of this border are not defined to lie in either sphere of influence.

Termination:
After two (2) pretenders have been eliminated, either party may announce the treaty's termination. Three (3) turns from this announcement, the treaty shall be null and void.

Signed by Helheim

[Fakeymcfake]

Confirmed by Nief.

[Frozen Lama]

one thing i'd like to say- in general, most games with binding diplo that i've seen, the policy towards stealth armies is a little looser. if the other person doesn't know that you are stealthing into his lands, its ok. if you have a NAP-3, and stealth a ton of raiders into their lands, and then leagally end the agreement, wait 3 turns, then attack all of his provs, this is perfectly legal in most games with "binding diplo" of course if you get caught, its another matter.

[Squirrelloid]

Way too many public treaties - now where's the fun in that.

Hmm... i should PM some people...

[Kietsensei]

By doing all these public treaties, Helheim is buying him some time so that he can benefit from all the provinces he conquered during the expansion phase without taking the risk of an early war

[Squirrelloid]

That's because he doesn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!

[Lihaässä]

Helheim, Niefell, Abysia... just a bunch of pansies who are trying to pick on weaker ones and are terrified of each other. I say.. southern ferries and northern monkies! ;)

Ulm is still fighting and forging. For any allies against the powerhouses above I offer good trade and loyalty.

Feel free to PM

[GrudgeBringer]

Hence the reason in my example that I stated that there would be no stealth armies either IN or going thru my lands during the NAP.

IF, the want to go in and sit there ready to stab you in the back there is not much you can do about it whether they are caught or not.

Like I said, you need to KNOW the players you nap with.

Remember a NAP isn't a Bullet Proof Vest in this game.

But I disagree with a number of folks that say they DON'T use or discuss Naps, they just do it in private.:p

[Squirrelloid]

Hence the reason in my example that I stated that there would be no stealth armies either IN or going thru my lands during the NAP.

IF, the want to go in and sit there ready to stab you in the back there is not much you can do about it whether they are caught or not.

Like I said, you need to KNOW the players you nap with.

Remember a NAP isn't a Bullet Proof Vest in this game.

But I disagree with a number of folks that say they DON'T use or discuss Naps, they just do it in private.:p

I've never said I don't use them. I don't use them *publicly*.

[mscfish]

What's probelm with Kailasa?
He only have 2 provinces.Maybe he's under attack.
Shall we turn him to ai because he have 2 stales?

[Squirrelloid]

Re:Kailasa
Hasn't responded to attempts to contact by PM either. Honestly hadn't noticed he was staling.

If he's turning AI, i think i want to know before i submit my turn. (Vastly different expectations of the AI as compared to human players).

[GrudgeBringer]

Report it to Frozen Lama and see if he wants to set it to AI or just someone take the last 2 provinces.

[Frozen Lama]

Re kailasa- with just 2 provs, the difference it can make is marginal. i'm more inclined to just set it AI. i can get someone to do that i'm pretty sure

[Squirrelloid]

Re kailasa- with just 2 provs, the difference it can make is marginal. i'm more inclined to just set it AI. i can get someone to do that i'm pretty sure

Do it next turn so I don't have to redo my turn for this turn? (I'm not even attacking him this turn!)

Alternately, He'll be dead shortly, so don't worry about it?

[Frozen Lama]

ok, once this turn hosts, i will have him set AI

[Fakeymcfake]

I'm going to be moving this friday to my university. I've asked chrispedersen to cover for me until I can get my things in order and get back online. I'll have him send you his email Lama and if you could switch them over on friday that'd be super.

[Frozen Lama]

will do

[iainuki]

Treaty between Helheim and Marverni:

The territory of influence stands as defined before by proximity to the capitals, except as may be negotiated between the parties.

1) No movements of troops through each other's territories without permission.

2) No casting of spells in each other's territories without permission.

Lasts until turn 21.

If Helheim agrees to these terms, Marverni also agrees.

[aaminoff]

I talked to Marverni by email, here is the new version, this should include everything so no need to refer to earlier posts.

Treaty of Friendship between Helheim and Marverni:

- forces of parties will not enter provinces owned by each other, or independent provinces in the defined sphere of influence of the counterparty, except with the permission of the counterparty.

- Spheres of influence are defined by province-count-distance to capitals. A province closer to one nation's capital than the other is in that nation's sphere of influence. Provinces equidistant from both capitals is in neither sphere of influence; in effect they are first come first served.

- parties will not deliberately attempt to push dominion into one anothers territory

- parties will not cast ritual spells upon one another, except with the permission of the counterparty

Termination:
After four (4) pretenders have been eliminated, either party may announce the treaty's termination. Three (3) turns from this announcement, the treaty shall be null and void.

Signed by Helheim

[iainuki]

I talked to Marverni by email, here is the new version, this should include everything so no need to refer to earlier posts.

Treaty of Friendship between Helheim and Marverni:

- forces of parties will not enter provinces owned by each other, or independent provinces in the defined sphere of influence of the counterparty, except with the permission of the counterparty.

- Spheres of influence are defined by province-count-distance to capitals. A province closer to one nation's capital than the other is in that nation's sphere of influence. Provinces equidistant from both capitals is in neither sphere of influence; in effect they are first come first served.

- parties will not deliberately attempt to push dominion into one anothers territory

- parties will not cast ritual spells upon one another, except with the permission of the counterparty

Termination:
After four (4) pretenders have been eliminated, either party may announce the treaty's termination. Three (3) turns from this announcement, the treaty shall be null and void.

Signed by Helheim

I want a more precise definition of "dominion push." How about:

1) No preaching in border provinces with positive dominion, and obviously no stealth preaching in the counterparty's territory.
2) Building temples on the border is fine. (One or the other of us may need to recruit units that require a temple, etc.)
3) Gods and prophets can move into border provinces, but shouldn't stay for more than three turns without permission from the other counterparty. (Which should be liberal if there's a reason for it, e.g. your god or prophet is defending a choke or some such.)
4) No stealth prophets in counterparty's territory, obviously.

With this definition, signed by Marverni.

[aaminoff]

as amended, signed by Helheim

[GrudgeBringer]

Guys, the negotiations and changes to the wording etc should be done in privite.

The Completed Nap should go on the Forum page as to not confuse anyone IF you guys have a problem later,

No one is going to want to hear "On page 11, Paragraph 3, of the first dratft you said this or that and it never changed etc.

It makes for 4 page arguments that we don't need.

So if this is the final draft, so be it,,,after all this you BOTH better live up to it:p

[GrudgeBringer]

I am still trying to continue my losing struggle agianst the mighty Hinnom.

I am asking for ANY money (no matter how small) or Death, Air, Astral gems (even 1 will help) to keep my Guerilla war going.

I have managed to slow him down some but he is a VERY powerful nation and for you close by...even 2 or 3 turns might make a difference.

I hate to have to ask for help but know that you are contributing to the GOOD FIGHT in this game!!!

Thanks Arco:up:

[Fakeymcfake]

HA, oh it always makes me laugh when I lose a battle because of something as silly as that. Anyhow, glad you're making it fun Shard, interesting use of the skeletons though I'm not exactly sure what you were going for there.

[shard]

tis GOD'S WILL
that you be punished for conspiring with the Frozen Lama of Tir na Nog

[Frozen Lama]

first of all- he will be punished because big bad Niefel consipired WITH little Tir? got it backwards i think. i just did what the big guy said to do, or he'll kill me. :cry:

real reason for posting- Bandar Lover has annoyingly put a password on his pretender before he went AWOL, so he cannot be set AI without bugging Llamabeast, so against my usual principles, i think it best to let him stale. he seems to have an ok army, which i'm assuming will be in his cap, and thus will make it at least not be a free castle.

[Fakeymcfake]

That's right Lama, make me out to be the bad guy.

Also, make sure you switch over the emails tomorrow. I should be back online by tuesday at the latest.

[Frozen Lama]

Will do. he hasn't emailed me yet, so i guess i will send him a PM. I'm guessing it will be the turn after next that he needs, unless your leaving in the next 4 hours or so right?

[mscfish]

hummmm...

Looks like there're many warfares at this time.

[Frozen Lama]

with the prov-player ratio in this game, the first 25 or so turns should see a wave of early deaths..... don't be one of them

[Trumanator]

Well that was weird? Somehow my Gorgon refused to heal between turns?

[GrudgeBringer]

Wanna trade your Gorgon for My POD...he doesn't plan on staying around much longer anyway...:eek:

[GrudgeBringer]

Was thinking...you can force host if Kalisia is the only nation left to submit its turn.

[Frozen Lama]

yeah, i did that last turn, i just so happened to be away when the last other turn got in.

[Fakeymcfake]

I told chris to send you his email as soon as he was able so it should come in soon, but yes I will be able to do one more turn.

[Kietsensei]

Wanna trade your Gorgon for My POD...he doesn't plan on staying around much longer anyway...:eek:

Well that is a good new indeed ;) I think he is getting old and must be tired after so many years working. How about retiring in the Underworld for some well deserved vacations?

[GrudgeBringer]

More like forced retirement I think!!!:p

[BandarLover]

Huge huge apologies guys. I had a total pc melt down and had to wipe and reinstall and I just got everything working now. Unfortunately, I don't have my copy of Dominions right now so I'll need to find a replacement. Should I make a new post for that?

[Kietsensei]

Err I think there have been some mistake with the victory condition... Rollback I suppose? :)

[aaminoff]

Right... I assume that was a bug. Hopefully everyone got the same thing, that is, an announcement that Caelum won, and the whole map visible. The odd thing is that certain nations seemed to have forces, and others did not. I did not look too closely on the theory that this was info I should not have.

Urk, what a mess.

Has anyone seen anything like this happen before? Were the victory conditions just set wrong? Or perhaps some of these VP crowns are worth more than 1 VP by accident thus allowing Caelum to get up to 7 by taking one?

- Alex, Helheim

[Trumanator]

Well on the llamaserver it only says 2 vps for Caelum. I suspect that something went wrong setting the victory conditions though. Unfortunately, I don't believe its possible to change VP conditions when the game has already started.

[BandarLover]

Squirreloid can correct me if I am wrong, but the same thing seemed to happen in an earlier game we played before starting this one. NOX game I believe.

[mscfish]

Looks like the VP conditons have been setted wrong.
Find your early turns,look at the graphic,and click Victory Points.You will find a grey line,this line is the line which means victory,but it have been setted wrong,it's only a little higher than the the others.It's just one VP higher than the others.So when caelum get one VP,the game's over.

Why haven't anyone of us find this mistake?:doh:

[GrudgeBringer]

Hmmmm, It might be that we discussed it and I thought Frozen Lama set it and he thought I set it.

I don't know that this happened, but I DO know I never messed with the victory conditions one way or the other, so it could be my fault guys:(

However, I just checked the score sheet and TC ALSO has 3 points so I don't see how Caelem won with VP if 2 have the same amount.

[JR77]

From what I can see from the map only Caelum has another Captial = VP, so if VP victory set to 2 (as it indeed looks from the graph) it makes perfect sense :(

I hope there is some way to roll back to last turn and change this condition. If there is not I hope we can restart with the current pool of active players (in general I have been very impressed by lvl and amount of diplomacy and also game pace). This time around, I would prefer a wrap-around map if possible - I think it makes sense with a large number of players...

[Frozen Lama]

Well i have no clue how that happened. i can't see any explaination besides that i must have messed up and not set the VP requirement higher. if that's the case, i'm really sorry guys. unfortunatly i'm pretty sure there's no way to change that in game, so i believe we will have to restart. i'm away from home tonight, but tomorrow i will be on, and will try to sort this out. just hang in there for 12h or so plz.

[Squirrelloid]

errr.... that was unexpected. Um, I don't know what we're doing, but i'll be away all day tomorrow. And here I was going to ask for an extension...

If we're rebooting with the same nations, I believe llamaserver still has my pretender and i'm willing to use the same one. (Assuming that its possible to wrangle such a thing). Otherwise I should get submitted in time to start Sunday (as measured in the US).

[Kietsensei]

Well congratulation to Squirelloid for this blitz victory!
And see Grudge? You weren't eliminated after all :D
I guess we have to start over again

[GrudgeBringer]

lets take the weekend and figure out what we want to do...

I for one am ready to let Hinnom crack my head again as I had him Right where he wanted me.

I also hope everyone has patience and will play agian and I apologize for the error in game Victory conditions, as I took this over from Black Sun It falls square on my shoulders.

A wrap around map huh...we COULD use Oriana. Lets see if all the stalwarts will go again (I THINK we have to set up the game again and submit pretenders, but that should just take a small amount of time as we will all keep the same Nations).

Could we please have a head count of you that want to start another game right away....Please just use this forum and when you say yes or n, please state your Nation.

Thanks for your patience and if Frozen Lama would kindly help set it up and admin again I would appreciate it ALOT!!:up:

[JR77]

Yes, Fomoria

I hope I get lucky with provinces and sites again :)

Had an income of both earth, astral (+shamans to use them) and nature gems and an "enter to summon mummy" site. And I was about to get Pangaea's home province (although I made the classic mistake of under-estimating my opponent this turn!)....

If any of you other guys could come with a small update of what went good and bad in this game for you, I think it would make a more "fun" ending!

[Kietsensei]

I am for starting again (HInnom).
Now if we can upload pretender again that would be great. I would like to do some changes

[Mule Warrior]

Congratulations to the winner.

Count me in for another game, I'll play R'Lyeh again.
I hope this time I'll have a better start position, in a sea that is more than 4 povinces long:(
It was hard to expand initially because I had to go to land very early.

I'll use the same pretender.

[Lihaässä]

Congratulations for the fastest mp winner ever :D

I would like to play again, but maybe need few days to sort out new pretender god. I see now how it is with rushes. Helheim and Abysia were pressing hard.. Maybe Ulm needs an awake SC pretender. :(

Thanks for a good fight!

[aaminoff]

Sure, I'm in for a restart.

Since this is a newbie game, I would love to do a bit of postmortem on the situation so far, though without revealing anything (eg pretender choices) that will be relevant in the next version.

I would suggest, once there are enough votes that GB & Lama feel this is a go, to start a new thread, leaving this one for postmortem.

FWIW, I strongly support a wraparound map. I think it really sucks to get squeezed against the edge of the world. Also in DH it looks to me like the density of starting locations was a lot higher in the north-east than in the south-west.

[aaminoff]

> I see now how it is with rushes. Helheim and Abysia were
> pressing hard.. Maybe Ulm needs an awake SC pretender.

Thank you for putting up a good fight. I spent many enjoyable hours trying to figure out how to beat on you.

Honestly your map position, trapped against the edge, was the main problem. On a per-gold basis, your sacreds are better than mine, and your archers, in quantity, can be effective getting rid of my pesky glamor. OTOH, every time you spend 200G on a commander, that is useless in combat until battle magic gets researched; whereas my commanders are all sacred thugs out of the box. Which is why I realized I had to attack you very early if at all.

Anyway, GG. Next go-around, I hope we won't be adjacent, or if we are, that I find out who you are sooner so I can talk to you.

- Alex, Helheim

[Ishamoridin]

It's a crying shame, I was quite enjoying that. And I was about to start chewing on Ermor, too =/



Anyway, count Mictlan in for the next game, though I might tinker with my pretender.

[GrudgeBringer]

Well, I think Oriana (wrap around will fix all those problems of being pushed into a corner.

My problem....LOL

My problem was Hinnon on my underside and Caelem made a pact with him so I was the sacrificial lamb.

I think/hope I made it hard enough on him that it would put him behind as I was fighting a guerrilla war and was about to lose my Cap.

Thanks to all those anonymous nations that sent me gold and gems

I think the only way to beat Hinnom early is make him pay for every battle as he is so resource intensive.

ME....why heck, I'm just a peaceful 'ol' nation that likes everyone. I cry every time I even have to take an indie province.
So remember that you Mom's would be ashamed of you if you attacked a defenseless nation:D

I think it looks like we can get another one started, just need to hear from a few more and we will start a different thread.:up:

[Mule Warrior]

I approve the Orania map.

[iainuki]

I'm game for another round. Maybe a map that has more provinces/player this time?

[Cerain]

Count with me I'll play with vanheim.

[Trumanator]

I'll jump in again as Pan. However, I find the Orania map incredibly annoying and ugly, so if we could avoid it that would be great. Personally I like Cradle a lot, but that isn't wraparound.

[Eldanesh]

Wouldn't mind a restart, congrats Caelum.

[Frozen Lama]

ok i'm back! sorry it took so long, but as life usually goes, thinks were FUBAR at the worst possible day for me.

like i said, the vp thing is probably my fault, sorry.

i thought i could just unstart the game, but it appears i can't, so we will have to have people re-submit their pretenders. hopefully most of you guys are still up for the game.

re-map
personally i agree with Trumanator, and don't really like oraina, what about PashaDawg's Asia Twist? its roughly the same size, and wraparound.

Edit: the only thing is, with Asia twist, we will need two more water nations, but that shouldn't be too hard

[GrudgeBringer]

I just played a practice on Oriana...It is an incredibly boring map.

I had a Capitol surrounded by 5 Fertile regions. I couldn't spend money fast enough and STILL had about 4700 by turn 12.

I looked at other areas on the map and they where pretty bleak...

Wrap around maps are OK (actually I liked Darkheavens as it was easy on the eyes) but for the most part they are VERY...errr, colorful and are hard to stare at for any length of times.

I am going to propose that we use the standards and Streamers Mod so we can see each other better.

Suggestions gentlemen

[Squirrelloid]

Caelum is ready again. Hopefully I won't win *that* fast this time.

[mscfish]

ok i'm back! sorry it took so long, but as life usually goes, thinks were FUBAR at the worst possible day for me.

like i said, the vp thing is probably my fault, sorry.

i thought i could just unstart the game, but it appears i can't, so we will have to have people re-submit their pretenders. hopefully most of you guys are still up for the game.

re-map
personally i agree with Trumanator, and don't really like oraina, what about PashaDawg's Asia Twist? its roughly the same size, and wraparound.

Edit: the only thing is, with Asia twist, we will need two more water nations, but that shouldn't be too hard
Yes,I vote asia twist.
And my Tc is coming back.

[Kietsensei]

Well, I think Oriana (wrap around will fix all those problems of being pushed into a corner.

My problem....LOL

My problem was Hinnon on my underside and Caelem made a pact with him so I was the sacrificial lamb.

I think/hope I made it hard enough on him that it would put him behind as I was fighting a guerrilla war and was about to lose my Cap.

Thanks to all those anonymous nations that sent me gold and gems

I think the only way to beat Hinnom early is make him pay for every battle as he is so resource intensive.

ME....why heck, I'm just a peaceful 'ol' nation that likes everyone. I cry every time I even have to take an indie province.
So remember that you Mom's would be ashamed of you if you attacked a defenseless nation:D

I think it looks like we can get another one started, just need to hear from a few more and we will start a different thread.:up:

Actually, the problem is that you chose a philosopher/research strategy with Arco, which made you very vulnerable to early rush. I am pretty sure the result would have been the same if you had a niefelheim/helheim or whatever rush nation as a neighbour. Anyway your guerilla was more than annoying and slowed my research quite alot ;)

[GrudgeBringer]

Let me tell you a TRUE story....

When I was in the 7th grade there was this kid that had really PO'd a freshman over a girl (what else).

He was a little guy and the freshman was on the football team, pretty aggressive, and somewhat larger.

He (the freshman) set out to teach the younger boy a lesson about messing with ANY girl that he wanted, and let the 'word' get out that he was going to thrash him within an inch of his life.

Now the school they went to was a unique design, both levels where constructed of 2 squares with a hallway running down the middle and completely around them.

Sometimes when the Freshman walked around a corner, the little guy would be waiting, and would jump up and smack this guy in the face and run like hell.

After about 2 weeks of this the freshman was ducking going around every corner and FINALLY let it be known that he had decided it wasn't worth it, even though he would probably have caught this kid at some point. He would leave the smaller kid alone.

Lesson learned....

If your going to take on a smaller, weaker, entity, then be prepared to be attacked by a wasp. You will eventually get it with that newspaper, but you will be stung a number of times while doing it.

If you are that strong then take fight the strongest first because the weaker one will slow you down and let the stronger one get prepared to do battle with you on even terms.

That was a true story, and NO that little kid wasn't me....it was my brother.

Why rush a Hornets nest when you can fight something you can catch.

let the Philosopher mull around amongst his papers, he will always be there to smack around later.:D

[iainuki]

I am going to propose that we use the standards and Streamers Mod so we can see each other better.

I hate the standards and streamers mod, so I'd prefer not.

[Squirrelloid]

Standards and Streamers is (1) pointless in a single-age game, (2) can be utilized on an individual basis because its merely a graphics mod.

So if GB wants to use the Standards and Streamers mod and no one else does, that's fine.

[GrudgeBringer]

OK (Gonna yell here for a moment), I THINK WE HAVE A CONCENSUS THAT WE WILL START AGIAN USING A DIFFERENT MAP.

NEW THREAD CALLED VISCIOUS CIRCLE3 WILL BE THE OFFICIAL THREAD AND IS STARTED.

PLEASE SIGN IN (sorry agian) WITH NATION (Hinnom has to fight with one arm tied behind his back!!) and we will get it going agian.

Lets do this quick before we lose to many people,

Thanks!!!

Grudge:up:

[Eldanesh]

Hmm I don't see it.