IGN: Elemental: War Of Magic - Preview

[theenemy]

http://pc.ign.com/articles/101/1017713p1.html

O-M-G! Sounds awesome:D
If Stardock manges to pull this one off I definitely will prefer EWM to Dominions:p

[Tolkien]

http://pc.ign.com/articles/101/1017713p1.html

O-M-G! Sounds awesome:D
If Stardock manges to pull this one off I definitely will prefer EWM to Dominions:p
Don't blaspheme.:nono:

[RabbitDynamite]

Ooooooh. I'd read some interesting stuff about the game before, but it fell off my radar a bit. The removal of the oft tedious initial expansion phase sounds excellent. Furthermore, the thing that really stood out for me from GalCiv 2 (in what was, to be honest, mostly a fairly by-the-numbers 4x game) was the personality and variety the AIs had in diplomacy, so that they're designing the game to take full advantage of that is superb. This one is firmly on my to buy list now.

[MaxWilson]

I will be very cautious about buying this, since I've been burned by Stardock in the past. On the other hand, I can hardly resist at least *trying* something that claims to be inspired by MoM, now can I?

Hopefully there is a demo.

-Max

[Edi]

If that thing has a map editor that you can use to create the kind of maps those screenshots feature, I'll be buying it for that reason alone.

[theenemy]

http://pc.ign.com/articles/101/1017713p1.html

O-M-G! Sounds awesome:D
If Stardock manges to pull this one off I definitely will prefer EWM to Dominions:p
Don't blaspheme.:nono:

I am theenemy and I am here to ask you a question:

Is a man not entitled to prefer a different game than Dominions 3?

"Nay!" say the followers of Dom3, "Thou shalt worship Dom3 and it alone!"

"Nay!" say the Halo fanboys, "Halo iz teh bezzt gaym evaaah!!!111!!!ONEE!"

"Nay" says Jack Thompson, "Video games are evil and will make you an idiot. Just like 'The Jerry Springer Show' and 'Teletubbies'"

I rejected those answers. Instead... I chose something different. I chose... the impossible. I chose... Elemental: War Of Magic! A game which hopefully will have a decent AI, a system to outfit your own units and magic so strong that you can bend the nature to your will.
And if you prefer EWM... it can be yours aswell.

[MaxWilson]

http://pc.ign.com/articles/101/1017713p1.html

O-M-G! Sounds awesome:D
If Stardock manges to pull this one off I definitely will prefer EWM to Dominions:p
Don't blaspheme.:nono:

I am theenemy and I am here to ask you a question:

Is a man not entitled to prefer a different game than Dominions 3?

"Nay!" say the followers of Dom3, "Thou shalt worship Dom3 and it alone!"

"Nay!" say the Halo fanboys, "Halo iz teh bezzt gaym evaaah!!!111!!!ONEE!"

"Nay" says Jack Thompson, "Video games are evil and will make you an idiot. Just like 'The Jerry Springer Show' and 'Teletubbies'"

I rejected those answers. Instead... I chose something different. I chose... the impossible. I chose... Elemental: War Of Magic! A game which hopefully will have a decent AI, a system to outfit your own units and magic so strong that you can bend the nature to your will.
And if you prefer EWM... it can be yours aswell.

The bolded words make the use of past tense ("chose") in this post pretty funny. :)

-Max

[AstralWanderer]

I will be very cautious about buying this, since I've been burned by Stardock in the past.Me too (with regards to online activation being sneaked in with GalCiv2 patches). Having 2D/3D map options built-in seems a nice feature though.

Other alternatives to consider could be the Age of Wonders series (though a little dated, they do have more thrills in the graphics department compared to Dominions) and King's Bounty - The Legend (a tribute to the classic King's Bounty game where you control one hero and recruit troops - real time strategy movement and turn-based combat with attractive graphics and plenty of quests but impeded by a laughably bad translation).

[NTJedi]

Eventually I'll have to pickup this King's Bounty... overall opinion seems to be good.

I hope it has multiplayer and either a map editor or a random game generator. And big maps... big maps are important! :)

[NTJedi]

If that thing has a map editor that you can use to create the kind of maps those screenshots feature, I'll be buying it for that reason alone.

I believe this screenshot might answer your question:

http://www.draginol.com/images2009/KotakuElementalsetsupdynasties_AED3/Elemental_TileEditor_ZoomedHarbor.png

[AstralWanderer]

I hope it has multiplayer and either a map editor or a random game generator. And big maps... big maps are important! :)No multiplayer, no map editor. It's a single-player game with fixed maps/quests which are randomly populated with opponents and treasure - rather like a real-time version of Heroes of Might and Magic where you only control one character. The main attractions are building up your character (and his army) and exploration/quest solving.

Size-wise the maps are medium-size but packed with detail, making them seem larger.

[happygeek]

Max: How were you burned by Stardock? They seem to be very upright and open-eared (for a successful software company).

Which is not to say I also have my doubts about E:WoM, simply because there were many suboptimal elements of GC2 that turned me off fairly quickly, and because E:WoM also seems to want to incorporate some of these. Also, what appears to be a new focus on family dynasties doesn't tickle my fancy (I don't want to micromanage weddings throughout a 4X game). I just don't want it to have the elements of CivIV and GC2 I don't like. Otherwise, it looks VERY promising!

[Sombre]

I believe this screenshot might answer your question:

http://www.draginol.com/images2009/KotakuElementalsetsupdynasties_AED3/Elemental_TileEditor_ZoomedHarbor.png

That doesn't answer the question, he was talking about the hand drawn style maps I would guess.

[theenemy]

The bolded words make the use of past tense ("chose") in this post pretty funny. :)

-Max

Blah, blah, blaaa...
I chose to prefer it:p I havent actually played the game yet;)

[theenemy]

I hope it has multiplayer and either a map editor or a random game generator. And big maps... big maps are important! :)No multiplayer, no map editor. It's a single-player game with fixed maps/quests which are randomly populated with opponents and treasure - rather like a real-time version of Heroes of Might and Magic where you only control one character. The main attractions are building up your character (and his army) and exploration/quest solving.

Size-wise the maps are medium-size but packed with detail, making them seem larger.

No multiplayer? Then why does this topic(http://forums.elementalgame.com/362366) exist? And it WILL have a map editor. Misinformed mucho?:confused:

[Calahan]

I think half the people on this thread are talking about Elemental, and the other half talking about King's Bounty. Since it appears most of the posts referring to the (lack of) multi-player and map-editing features are in relation to King's Bounty.

[NTJedi]

I believe this screenshot might answer your question:

http://www.draginol.com/images2009/KotakuElementalsetsupdynasties_AED3/Elemental_TileEditor_ZoomedHarbor.png

That doesn't answer the question, he was talking about the hand drawn style maps I would guess.

I was under a different impression.

[NTJedi]

I hope it has multiplayer and either a map editor or a random game generator. And big maps... big maps are important! :)No multiplayer, no map editor. It's a single-player game with fixed maps/quests which are randomly populated with opponents and treasure - rather like a real-time version of Heroes of Might and Magic where you only control one character. The main attractions are building up your character (and his army) and exploration/quest solving.

Size-wise the maps are medium-size but packed with detail, making them seem larger.

No multiplayer? Then why does this topic(http://forums.elementalgame.com/362366) exist? And it WILL have a map editor. Misinformed mucho?:confused:

Astral Wanderer was responding to my comment on Kings Bounty... based on his response I actually won't be buying Kings Bounty.

I've been following Elemental "very closely" and I know it will have multiplayer, a random map generator and a map editor. :)

[RabbitDynamite]

The bolded words make the use of past tense ("chose") in this post pretty funny. :)

-Max

Blah, blah, blaaa...
I chose to prefer it:p I havent actually played the game yet;)

Elemental: so good it breaks time itself?

[theenemy]

The bolded words make the use of past tense ("chose") in this post pretty funny. :)

-Max

Blah, blah, blaaa...
I chose to prefer it:p I havent actually played the game yet;)

Elemental: so good it breaks time itself?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPmb0F00YPE&feature=related

[theenemy]

No multiplayer, no map editor. It's a single-player game with fixed maps/quests which are randomly populated with opponents and treasure - rather like a real-time version of Heroes of Might and Magic where you only control one character. The main attractions are building up your character (and his army) and exploration/quest solving.

Size-wise the maps are medium-size but packed with detail, making them seem larger.

No multiplayer? Then why does this topic(http://forums.elementalgame.com/362366) exist? And it WILL have a map editor. Misinformed mucho?:confused:

Astral Wanderer was responding to my comment on Kings Bounty... based on his response I actually won't be buying Kings Bounty.

I've been following Elemental "very closely" and I know it will have multiplayer, a random map generator and a map editor. :)

Aaaaaaaaaaaaah!:D

[RabbitDynamite]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPmb0F00YPE&feature=related[/url]

But its not Tuesday!

[RegnorVex]

I know that Stardock tends to get a lot of kudos from players, but in my experience they've been *awful* as a company. I finally gave up on Demigod, which could have been a great game, because of the extraordinarily bad problems they've had with their online play.

Still, to this date, after months of poorly timed announcements claiming they'd fix the problems and blaming customers for any remaining problems, their forums are populated by unhappy users who can't get Demigod working properly. Brad Wardell has not helped the situation at all, insulting the people for whom the game still does not work (like me) and treating us like haters instead of customers who would like to enjoy the game they've paid for.

There are enough players who *are* working and who keep propping up the company that Stardock appears to have considered their work done and have moved on to the Elemental project. So I will remain quite wary of this title until I read reviews.

And don't get me started on Impulse. I tried installing Europa Universalis III on Vista 64 using Impulse and it made a mess of my computer, installing game files on my root drive and leaving bizarre, incomprehensible messages. I received zero support from Stardock, despite posts explaining in polite detail the problems. Not a single response. Their Impulse forums are scary with unanswered complaints. I finally had to download a patch available from the game developer, extract it myself, and figure out which directories to install its files into in order to get my Impulse product to even run. Last time I buy anything from Impulse.

Elemental sounds truly exciting and, like many here, I look forward to trying it out when it's shipped. And I have been quite happy with most Stardock products in the past. But you have to judge a company not by how they respond to things going smoothly, but by how they respond when things don't go well. I will be far more careful spending any money on a Stardock product next time around.

[LDiCesare]

Demigod wasn't developped by Stardock. They published it and used some programing resources scheduled for Elemental to woek on Demigod to fix what was crappy software in the first place.
On the other hand, I can't say I like Impulse very much, it's been quite unstable.
I am mostly afraid that the Demigod debacle made Stardock afraid of the multiplayer aspect and it looks like they won't provide the ability to play LAN but all multiplayer will have to go through their network for Elemental. What with some upload speed limits making MP unavailable for many players. All this because Demigod used P2P while Elemental has no reason to and will probably be a classical client/server.

[theenemy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPmb0F00YPE&feature=related[/url]

But its not Tuesday!

lolwut?

[getter77]

I look forward to seeing how the (ultimately) Python 3.x oriented engine for Elemental will stack up with my upcoming epic adventure with the C++ oriented engine on Scallywag for my Roguelike plans in terms of what is possible and how. :cool:

(With the ever so nifty looking Torchlight engine Preditor as the darkhorse in the race! :fight: )

Will very likely pre-order this in the near future...maybe take advantage of the DD+Retail box option depending on how much that will hit me for shipping...

[RegnorVex]

Demigod wasn't developped by Stardock.

Yeah, I'm pretty familiar with the whole history of the product, GPG's role and the 3rd party P2P layer. Stardock just isn't a very smart company. The way they handled the Demigod fiasco was extremely disappointing and illustrated pretty conclusively (to me, at least) that they had no idea what they were doing as they continually posted embarassing messages claiming they'd solved the problem.

I get the feeling that they rely too much on Impulse as a quick turn-around patcher and it causes them to publish builds first and test later. The fact that they are developing this product in-house does not inspire me with confidence. :cool:

[LDiCesare]

I get the feeling that they rely too much on Impulse as a quick turn-around patcher and it causes them to publish builds first and test later. The fact that they are developing this product in-house does not inspire me with confidence. :cool:

Indeed their uusal development policy is to publish beta builds and have them tested by the public. They were unable to adapt to the more usual way Demigod was developped and still behaved as if the product was in beta when in fact it was not. They developped GalCiv and Galciv2 the way they develop Elemental and the end products were solid.
It's also much easier to develop a product you know than sending people who don't know a code base and have them fix problems in this unknown code. The latter often causes as many bugs as it solves since developers must first learn what the code really does. I doubt it tales less than one month to get accustomed to any code base of significant size, so the first month of patching by Stardock people would probably have hurt as much as it helped. This shouldn't be the case with something entirely develeopped by them.

I'm still wary about the multiplayer part but I don't care much for it, ad I think an Elemental MP game would be tedious if the game's anything like MoM or Civilization. It'll be even more than tedious with tactical battles being played between other players in real-time, basically making anything more than a duel uninteresting to me.

[NTJedi]

I am mostly afraid that the Demigod debacle made Stardock afraid of the multiplayer aspect and it looks like they won't provide the ability to play LAN but all multiplayer will have to go through their network for Elemental.

Yes, I literally feel that Stardock fears multiplayer as much as the goblins feared the Balrog. I hope others here on these forums such as myself will be contacting Stardock or posting on the Stardock forums requesting LAN, Hotseat and PBEM. Stardock will become more and more experienced with multiplayer stability each time they attack this demon.

[DonCorazon]

http://www.elementalgame.com/Artwork/Worker_Concept.jpg

this just doesn't get the epic fantasy juices flowing...but i won't give up hope yet

[vfb]

See? Complain about sexual exploitation in the Dom3 ads, and that's what you get.

[Sombre]

Man Eddie from the Munsters is looking rough these days.

[Meglobob]

Is that average joe pretending to be a adventurer? Or just a miner?

Doesn't exactly get the fantasy juices flowing...:doh:

[Zeldor]

Let's face it - it's just really ugly. And someone put a lot of effort to make it look really bad.

[Edi]

I believe this screenshot might answer your question:

http://www.draginol.com/images2009/KotakuElementalsetsupdynasties_AED3/Elemental_TileEditor_ZoomedHarbor.png

That doesn't answer the question, he was talking about the hand drawn style maps I would guess.

I was under a different impression.
Actually, Sombre got it right. I was never into building the battle maps or AoW:SM style maps. I guess my wording was a bit vague.

[vfb]

Here, now he's more friendly looking:

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w148/vfb_dominions/Worker_Concept.jpg

[DonCorazon]

i'd like to see how many books that would sell if that were the cover a fantasy novel.

"The Epic Adventures of Manfred, the Flabby Pear-Shaped Master of Hammer, Pick and Mini-Shovel, and How He Avoided Callouses with his Gloves and Still Managed a Pasty White Complexion With No Sleeves Due to the Elvish Runes Surrounding Him With an SPF 30 Enchantment"

[theenemy]

What are you guys talking about? This guy is hot as hell*eternal embarrasing silence*

[LDiCesare]

I wonder where you found that picture. It's, well, like... I mean... even in my mother tongue I can't find an adequate word that wouldn't be offensive.

[vfb]

Well, I thought it was some sort of joke at first. You know, take Stardock's babe-a-licious chainmail-bikini succubus artwork and gimp "Brad the Worker, Digger of Small Ditches" onto it, leaving just the frame from the original. So I had a look around. I found the original here on Stardock's Elemental page:

http://elementalgame.com/media.asp

[DonCorazon]

yeah, it was no joke. just an illustration of how stardock products remind me of someone that, you think you are understanding and relating to, but then they say something and you realize you are on a totally different page.

lets see who gets it - blizzard?
http://ui10.gamespot.com/2025/barbarian.png

or stardock?
http://www.elementalgame.com/Artwork/kingdom_Soldiers_Concept.jpg

hehe, well, like i said elemental "sounds" good, but if they think Manfred the Doody Shoveller or the Weaponless But Well Armorered Warrior is what gets people "juiced", well then i am not going to get my hopes up.

i better start getting my clicking fingers in shape for Diablo III... :)

[LDiCesare]

On the other hand, individual units in Elemental don't need the same level of detail as those in Diablo. Plus there's always a difference between 2d concept art (or sketches in the case of Stardock) and the 3d result. So it may still look good in the end. Although I have little doubt Blizzard games will be much better-looing than Stardock.

[quantum_mechani]

lets see who gets it - blizzard?
http://ui10.gamespot.com/2025/barbarian.png

or stardock?
http://www.elementalgame.com/Artwork/kingdom_Soldiers_Concept.jpg

To be honest I find both styles a little off-putting.

[Foodstamp]

I like the overall art style of the game.

Concept art is a lot different than the end result.

For instance, in 0 A.D. we went from this:
http://www.wildfiregames.com/0ad/album_image.php?pic_id=6267


to this:



http://wildfiregames.com/0ad/album_image.php?pic_id=12141


I know this is just one example, but Stardock is a fully staffed paying studio so I am pretty sure the end result will be acceptable.

[Sombre]

Considering it's concept art released to the public, I think it's an absolute garbage. If a paid artist did that I hope they had a deadline of 30 minutes for 10 sketches or something, because I think there are 13 year olds doodling on their desks that could do a better job than that.

If I was in their marketing team I would be demanding they take that **** offline.

[Foodstamp]

I still disagree. I think it is hard to concept for the final look they are going for. The art team chose an artist, Alfonso Mucha, who would be very difficult to mock up starting art for. His style is completely different than anything we have seen in a game before and I could see how the concept art team could run into an issue of the concept art being more detailed than the abstract finish.

Keep in mind too that at the very least Stardock's space games have looked terrible all the way up until a few months before release.

To give you some examples of the final result they are going to go for, here are a couple of pictures by the artist whose style they are trying to mimic:

Here is my favorite painting by the artist:

http://oliveloafdesign.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/mucha-moon.jpg

and here is one from the seasons panel:

http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=2389712

The concept art may not be pleasing to the eye, but how do you ask someone to mock up something in this style? Especially considering I have only ever seen one piece Mucha has done that portrays a man, and all of his images are very basic, the artistic styling primarily being the flowing of the bodies and color.

Finally, who cares what the concept art looks like as long as it conveys the point to the 3d artists? Probably the only mistake Stardock made was publicly displaying the concept art for fan critique.

They should have just had a guy come in and do some Warcraft looking stuff for the publicly released concept art.

[LDiCesare]

Much as I think the guys in armor don't look good for a 2D drawing, they are certainly ok for a 3D artist to work from.
However, the guy with a shovel has a real problem in terms of proportions. If the 3D guys model a shovel that small, it will look ugly.

[Foodstamp]

I agree with you on that, and the more i look at the concept art, the more I agree it could have been done a lot better, even for the end style they are going for. Maybe it is like sombre said and they were under a ridiculous deadline, or maybe the guy doing the concept art normally doesn't do that kind of stuff.

I think I know which guy is doing it, if you go to stardock's website, there is a gallery of guys working on games, and one of the guys is working on 2d icons that look similar in style to this concept art. Maybe they told him to do it even though it is not his normal field of expertise?

[happygeek]

The last couple dozen or so remarks seem to me exceptionally odd -- not because I have different aesthetic tastes than most of you, but because we are all here playing Dominions3, arguably one of the best MP fantasty TBS games around -- and (arguably) the game I have played longest with the worst sound and graphics I have experienced since 1990.

I cannot imagine anyone liking Dominions and caring a whit about its looks or sound (I have to turn the sound off).

I think it's an absolute garbage. I think there are 13 year olds doodling on their desks that could do a better job than that.

[Sombre]

Dom3 graphics (those actually made for dom3 rather than relics) are much, MUCH higher quality than those sketches. It's true that it doesn't look amazing. But it doesn't look horrible either. It just looks low budget and basic.

That concept art looks horrible. Not low budget. Just terrible. I mean it would be a fine effort for a random fanart amateur with no training or skill as an illustrator, but to come as publically distributed concept art for a game?

[Fantomen]

I´m with Sombre. Those concepts are unbeleivably crappy coming from a proffesional artist.

My expectations for this game aren´t high at the moment, the whole thing seems very uninspired.

I actually think Dom3 has good looking units, but the game as a whole (though my favourite game) isn´t beautiful. If those basic but very inspired unit sprites were accompanied by matching battleground, a slick GUI and good handdrawn images in the descriptions, it could have been a very beautiful game.

[Tolkien]

I suppose I third Sombre. While bad 2-D Concept Art doesn't always translate into bad 3-D Units, nonetheless, the concept art is atrocious.

And yes, we are playing Dominions 3: but the graphics aren't horrible. And at the moment we aren't talking about graphics, we're talking about concept art. Completely different things. :)

[Illuminated One]

I guess happygeeks point was not that the concept art is beautiful, but that it's nothing to care much about. Take a note "concept artist sucks" and look at more important things like gameplay. :)

[Tolkien]

Oh I agree. The concept art does suck. How the game turns out overall, though: well I'm going to wait until I get more info on that.

[Foodstamp]

I'm really surprised the concept art has lowered all your expectations for the game. Have you guys looked at the actual screenshots? The game looks incredible to me; I really like the style and I am not going to pass on it just because the early concept art was bad.

[vfb]

Oh, don't knock low expectations. They are the key to eliminating disappointment in life!

[happygeek]

I guess happygeeks point was not that the concept art is beautiful, but that it's nothing to care much about. Take a note "concept artist sucks" and look at more important things like gameplay. :)

Thank you. That was exactly what I was trying to say. Excuse me for being so inarticulate.
And for all it's worth, there are some links to some excellent (and attractive) screenshots as well as beautiful concept art. Here is one:
http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/101/1019369p1.html
best to all
-Jan

[Sombre]

I'm really surprised the concept art has lowered all your expectations for the game. Have you guys looked at the actual screenshots? The game looks incredible to me; I really like the style and I am not going to pass on it just because the early concept art was bad.

I didn't say anything about my expectations for the game. I'm just saying that concept art is terrible. I haven't looked at the other preview screenshots and art because I don't have any interest in Elemental after playing galciv 1 and 2.

[romis]

I found their website to be very uninformative, and these two articals next to useless. short of wading through their forums, which didn't look too promising anyways, where are you all getting the information that has you salavating over this game... you know, those that are. The first artical mentions an 'impressive feature list', can't find it.(bear in mind, i turn off everything on my webbrowser, as such it could be there and i just can't see it, if thats the case, please let me know where)

so far i know i can play it 2D for slow machines, zoom in till i see people working in buildings(why would i want to, especially in a turn based game...), change the terrain with magic, oh and the initial land grab was removed because they believe it often decides the game... personally i find the game is often decided before it starts by strategic placement, availability of essential resources for my nation, neighbors strength, etc. etc. i mean, he who grabs the most land is the one in the best position to do it. Its the nature of random generation, how has that changed?

[Foodstamp]

I'm really surprised the concept art has lowered all your expectations for the game. Have you guys looked at the actual screenshots? The game looks incredible to me; I really like the style and I am not going to pass on it just because the early concept art was bad.

I didn't say anything about my expectations for the game. I'm just saying that concept art is terrible. I haven't looked at the other preview screenshots and art because I don't have any interest in Elemental after playing galciv 1 and 2.

I´m with Sombre. Those concepts are unbeleivably crappy coming from a proffesional artist.

My expectations for this game aren´t high at the moment, the whole thing seems very uninspired.

Some other guy posted in this thread too.

[Sombre]

Well you were referring to 'all' 'you guys'. I just mean to show that you don't have to be taking the concept art as a reflection of the game's quality in order to think it's rubbish.

[Foodstamp]

Poor wording on my part I guess. I should have quoted the guy. I meant 'all your' as in all his expectations, the next part 'you guys' was asking if anyone who was complaining had seen the latest screenshots which I think look pretty great for a game in alpha.

[Sombre]

I agree the graphics look pretty great considering. I was a big fan of the graphics in the AoW games too, because though they were relatively simple technologically, they were very rich and lush.

[Foodstamp]

I think what I like about Elemental graphics is the way it looks like Cell Shading. Also, the comment has been batted around that the game is uninspired. Stardock has wanted to work on this game since they were negotiating the rights to Master of Magic 2. Maybe the comment was directed at the concept art being uninspired, because I cannot imagine a game that has been in design for so long that is using such a great classic game for inspiration could be classified as uninspired.

My only grievance with the game so far is that it is not going to be Master of Magic 2, and there is only going to be two factions instead of lots of races/nations which is one of my favorite features of Master of Magic and Dominions. But I guess we can handle that with what they have promised is going to be a ridiculously easy to use modding system, but really how easy can a 3d game be to mod? In my experience, 3d models, textures are best left to people with experience in the field.

[LDiCesare]

3D is indeed a pain to mod, but look at Civ IV and Fall from Heaven. If nothing else, I believe the FfH models can probably be reused and imported into Elemental, thus providing some dwarves, elves and dragons.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Elemental seems to get more like Total War Fantasy and not like Master of Magic.

BTW, anybody tried the Third Age mod for Medieval 2 yet? Seems to be of similar quality like FFH2 for Civ4.

[Foodstamp]

I'm actually playing the 3rd age mod right now for med2. I like it a lot :).

[NTJedi]

The current game art screenshots are not the final results... only where the developers are at this point. The beta version has not even been finished, so I'm expecting the graphics will continue to improve.

In regards to game features I have read in the dev journals the game will have a random game generator, a campaign, map editor, LOTS of modding, and some multiplayer.

The chance to be part of the beta testing for this year is ending soon based on the last developer journal.

[Omnirizon]

What is this game? I havn't heard of it before.

It looks pretty conventional and boring to me. bleh.

[Sombre]

The main reason people give a crap is because stardock were supposed to be doing MoM2 essentially. But they aren't. They're just doing a soulless fantasy strat game, of which there are many.

It might be good, but judging by galciv - no soul.

[MaxWilson]

The main reason people give a crap is because stardock were supposed to be doing MoM2 essentially. But they aren't. They're just doing a soulless fantasy strat game, of which there are many.

It might be good, but judging by galciv - no soul.

Sombre? This thread has kind of revived my interest in 4X games, and you seem to have good taste in games. I'm curious if you have any recommendations for games that *DO* have what you call "soul." Dwarf Fortress?

-Max

[OmikronWarrior]

The main reason people give a crap is because stardock were supposed to be doing MoM2 essentially. But they aren't. They're just doing a soulless fantasy strat game, of which there are many.

It might be good, but judging by galciv - no soul.

Sombre? This thread has kind of revived my interest in 4X games, and you seem to have good taste in games. I'm curious if you have any recommendations for games that *DO* have what you call "soul." Dwarf Fortress?

-Max

Civilization IV (especially its Beyond the Sword expansion and Fall From Heaven 2 mod) is the gold standard for 4x games right now. What Final Fantasy is to jRPGs, what Half Life is to FPS, and what Halo is to homophobes Civ is to the 4X genre. Thats not to say its everything for everybody, but it is the best place to begin if you have an interest in that genre.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

If you want to play Civ 4 I'd advice to jump directly to the Fall from Heaven 2 mod. It's very deep and very dark. The manual is a piece of art, and the intro has a background music that makes you almost tremble in fear, it's so thrilling.
Together with DotA for WC3 and Counterstrike for Halflife, it's probably the best mod ever made for a game (Though ME2's Third Age mod also seems to get a 'big' one...).

[AdmiralZhao]

I think a game with "soul" is a game for which it is prohibitively difficult to make a good AI. :)

Consider Dominions and FfH2. They're both great games, with a huge variety units, spells, effects, world spells, races, and flavor text. In particular, all of these little bits interact with each other in interesting and complex ways, and if you bring the wrong set of powers to a battle, you will be completely wiped out (e.g. a niefel giant vs light infantry, or a group of fire mages vs an unprepared niefel giant). Each race plays very differently, and it can feel like an entirely different game switching from EA Arco to LA Ermor, or from the Ljosalfar to the Infernals in FfH2.

Now consider Gal Civ. In terms of gameplay, races are only distinguished by the modifiers they get to certain operations (e.g. +20% missile attack, or +10% population growth). The technologies you can research change these modifiers slightly, and only rarely introduce actual new abilities. Combat barely changes through out the game, and the 3 different types of attacks might as well be labeled A, B, and C for all the color and unique properties that they have. So when you research the great new weapon at the end of the tech tree, your attack bonus for weapon A goes from 140% to 160%. Yay. This simplicity and boringness is nice though if you are trying to write an AI, since all you have to do is maximize the product of all the various modifiers. You don't have to worry about teleporting enslave squads and SC equipment and Horrors and miasma dominion and poison resistance and unrest causing rituals and so on.

If a game is filled with meaningful, interesting, and complex decisions, and the player constantly has to think, then I would say it has soul. If the player's decisions can be easily automated, then the game doesn't have soul.

[romis]

The main reason people give a crap is because stardock were supposed to be doing MoM2 essentially. But they aren't. They're just doing a soulless fantasy strat game, of which there are many.

It might be good, but judging by galciv - no soul.

I found a Q&A on Gamespot, after reading it, all interest i had in this game vanished like a puff of smoke. It was all i could do to finish reading the artical. i'd say calling it soulless is being generous, but thats just me.

[Omnirizon]

The main reason people give a crap is because stardock were supposed to be doing MoM2 essentially. But they aren't. They're just doing a soulless fantasy strat game, of which there are many.

It might be good, but judging by galciv - no soul.

no soul...

sombre you took the words out of my mouth. that perfectly describes my sentiments regarding most of what stardock has put out.

EDIT and on the what has soul/what is soul conversation:

alpha centauri: diversity in army units (not galciv's rock paper scissors). story associated with each faction, and with the game world in general which unfolded as game progressed. the cut scenes when gaining new technology were also very cute. (the galciv robot is completely and utterly stupid).

[Foodstamp]

Well, I respect your judgments on Elemental. I haven't had a chance to play it myself, but we all like Dominions, and so far according to the people who have played the game, Elemental is soulless and terrible, so I will just keep my money.

[Adept]

The main reason people give a crap is because stardock were supposed to be doing MoM2 essentially. But they aren't. They're just doing a soulless fantasy strat game, of which there are many.

It might be good, but judging by galciv - no soul.
Mindlessly judgemental of a game that is not nearly finished yet. Meh. What are you, some sort of reverse shill?

[Foodstamp]

Oh wait, these guys have not played Elemental? Then I find their reviews to be soulless and lacking depth.

[Kofiman]

Hmm..

Most of the information is found in the dev journals, just off the main page.

http://www.elementalgame.com/journals.asp

Omnirizon, units should be pretty diverse. The unit model is that you manufacture equipment, and equip and train people to use that equipment, rather than having generic units or RPS. It should be quite a lot different from Dominions, but I can see some definite similarities to kitting up thugs.

Here's one of the dev journal entries related to that.

http://forums.elementalgame.com/329473

Doesn't sound very much like either Galciv, does it?

Here's another.

http://forums.elementalgame.com/354240

All I know is that I'm going to try my best to kick the @#$% out of it in the beta period. Some of you should do the same.. although it will definately not be the least bit fun until at least the next entry period, which my guess will be January.

Do what you like. Not everyone liked Galciv much.

[Ballbarian]

Hmm..

The unit model is that you manufacture equipment, and equip and train people to use that equipment, rather than having generic units or RPS.

Thanks for the links Kofiman. I have not read the journals yet, but the quoted statement has grabbed my interest by the throat. I have been toying around with an idea for a TBS with this very feature and would love to see it done right. Will be watching this closely now. :)

(I was a big fan of Lord of the Realms II and wanted to take something along the lines of that system and put it in a Dom3-like scale.)

[atul]

The thing that worries me in that game is that they seem really intent on modelling the most basic stuff in the game, right down to the material of the equipment. It's just not that conductive to the story, micromanaging everything. But, they might make it work. We'll see next year.

And some people will probably love that aspect of the game.

[Sombre]

Well listen to you guys getting your panties in a twist. It's fine for people to get amped up over preview screenshots and promised features, but you'd have to be some sort of reverse shill to predict the game is, in all probability, going to have the same problem as the previous two strategy games the devs made?

There's nothing mindless about voicing the opinion, based on the preview stuff I've seen and the quality of their previous efforts, that the game seems to lacks soul. Did you think that maybe my voicing of this opinion just might be because I actually want to see a good mom style game and I'm disappointed in what I'm seeing? NO? OK THEN.

[Kofiman]

Do what you like, man. I'm pretty sure they'll be plenty of modders around who can write some good stuff.

[Sombre]

Could be. I wouldn't buy a game on the basis that I can ignore problems since modders will sort them out, though. No matter how mod friendly it is.

[NTJedi]

Considering this is one of the very few fantasy TBS games being released I'll give my best effort for the game being successful. I'll be doing some beta testing and will do my best to convince Elemental developers to include quality features for the games enjoyment. I've created several topics on their ideas forum already. Last I heard Stardock plans on providing an extra long beta testing with the release pushed backwards to August_2010... so the "problems" will definitely be fewer.

I've never bought any previous Stardock games, so we'll just have to see how well the developers listen during the long beta testing.

[Foodstamp]

Holy Crap Alpha Game Put Away The Jump-to-conclusions Mat.

[Foodstamp]

BTW I just preordered. I'm all in. Rumor is that beta is next week :).

[romis]

The thing that worries me in that game is that they seem really intent on modelling the most basic stuff in the game, right down to the material of the equipment. It's just not that conductive to the story, micromanaging everything. But, they might make it work. We'll see next year.

And some people will probably love that aspect of the game.

if done properly it shouldn't add any significant micromanagement at all, but does add a nice bit of strategy and more importantly adaptatability to the game.

while each unit can be unique in theory, its not going to happen, the reality is likely going to be each player with a handful of units types that take advantage of their resources and situation, effeciently, which they then produce in mass. you make one unit schematic and then recruit hundreds of units from that schematic. you won't often change these once you have something that works for you unless your situation drasticly changes. And if they are smart, they will let you keep prototypes from game to game.

it allows you to better adapt to the resources you have available, and your current needs, advisaries. In Civ4 if your unique unit is horses and you have none, you are gonna suffer. if you start with fishing and are land locked, you're hurt. in dominions if you lack certain types of gems needed for your nation, or if your nation needs money and is surrounded by poor provinces, resources and you territories are stripped. you are kinda boned.

you see it as lacking a story. more to the point, it lets you build the story. you establish the kingdom, you establish their elite corp, their focus. It works best when a unit type can, through use, become something more than a simple soldier. a hoplite was a hoplite till they became spartans, if you follow. but this takes extreme care to prevent it becoming an overwhelming advantage, rewarding someone already in the lead and things like that.

unless i completely misunderstood you.

[LDiCesare]

I understand Sombre's concerns. I have preordered and will participate in the beta, though, because I think Stardock can make good games. I loved Galciv1. I think Galciv 2 only added micromanagement and fancy graphics and was rather worthless.
Elemental's storyline also lookds underwhelming to me. There are the good guys and the bad guys. Stardock says there will be more factions, but nothing is said about them. Compared to MoM or FfH2 where there are races which are different without necessarily being morally different, it sucks.

However, the game should not just be moddable. It should be moddable during the beta, and influenced by the beta testers. Galciv's starbases were introduced by players during the beta. So, hopefully we can shape the game during the beta in order for it to become something pleasant.

[Foodstamp]

Once I realized a lot of people were just making assumptions, I dug through the forums and did some research on the game. From screenshots, it looks like the graphically modding will be done like Spore. You will be able to remodel at the very least buildings in game, which is really friggin cool.

I stumbled upon some more depth to this "soulless" game. Defeated players can become vassals, flip sides, form alliances or claw their way back into contention through good ole conquest.

The more I read about this game, the less it sounds like the game the naysayers are talking about. It's still too early to say whether this game will be good or bad, but from what I have seen so far, it sounds absolutely nothing like the negative comments I have heard. Preference I guess.

[Jagdpanther]

I think most of the 'features' that the game will have should make for a very interesting experience. I am concerned about the quality of the AI at handling these same 'features'.

[Kofiman]

I think most of the 'features' that the game will have should make for a very interesting experience. I am concerned about the quality of the AI at handling these same 'features'.

That's the only thing I'm not worried about, actually. If nothing else, the AI will be quite competent.

[Foodstamp]

I'm not into space games so I am not familiar with Stardock titles so I may be mixing things up here. But I recall that people have said in the past that Stardock does a really good job on AI. Am I mistaken?

[NTJedi]

I'm not into space games so I am not familiar with Stardock titles so I may be mixing things up here. But I recall that people have said in the past that Stardock does a really good job on AI. Am I mistaken?

Stardock has a better reputation for not only providing a decent AI, but to also continously improve the AI as well. I recall reading the AI will also be moddable, along with many other features. This means the community will be able to continously strengthen the AI opponents.

How I wish we could improve the AI for Dominions_3... ... ... if only to stop them from sending their pretenders into the arena death matches!! Several other AI fixes are also needed, but that's probably the most painful to observe.
:viking:

[Kofiman]

If you've got five bucks to waste, buy and download The Corporate Machine, and see how you do against a few AIs on normal. ;-)

[theenemy]

I think a game with "soul" is a game for which it is prohibitively difficult to make a good AI. :)

Consider Dominions and FfH2. They're both great games, with a huge variety units, spells, effects, world spells, races, and flavor text. In particular, all of these little bits interact with each other in interesting and complex ways, and if you bring the wrong set of powers to a battle, you will be completely wiped out (e.g. a niefel giant vs light infantry, or a group of fire mages vs an unprepared niefel giant). Each race plays very differently, and it can feel like an entirely different game switching from EA Arco to LA Ermor, or from the Ljosalfar to the Infernals in FfH2.

Now consider Gal Civ. In terms of gameplay, races are only distinguished by the modifiers they get to certain operations (e.g. +20% missile attack, or +10% population growth). The technologies you can research change these modifiers slightly, and only rarely introduce actual new abilities. Combat barely changes through out the game, and the 3 different types of attacks might as well be labeled A, B, and C for all the color and unique properties that they have. So when you research the great new weapon at the end of the tech tree, your attack bonus for weapon A goes from 140% to 160%. Yay. This simplicity and boringness is nice though if you are trying to write an AI, since all you have to do is maximize the product of all the various modifiers. You don't have to worry about teleporting enslave squads and SC equipment and Horrors and miasma dominion and poison resistance and unrest causing rituals and so on.

If a game is filled with meaningful, interesting, and complex decisions, and the player constantly has to think, then I would say it has soul. If the player's decisions can be easily automated, then the game doesn't have soul.

I second that. But I really, really hope that the game will have a decent AI.

By the way. A couple of nice vids:

EWM at PAX 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBRajOQuu6k

EWM "editor" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICOjq8i1XHU&feature=related

EWM chat with the producer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7PZxL1wOgI

[sector24]

I'm vehemently against the whole 'pre-order' industry concept so I'm relying on you guys to thoroughly analyze the game before it comes out so I can decide whether it's worth buy or not next year. Have fun with the beta!

[romis]

I'm vehemently against the whole 'pre-order' industry concept so I'm relying on you guys to thoroughly analyze the game before it comes out so I can decide whether it's worth buy or not next year. Have fun with the beta!

i too hope for periodic updates, at the very least so illwinter can steal the good ideas(statisticly they have to have one or two.) although i understand from the site, it will be a few months atleast before people are testing anything but the most basic components of the game.

[Kofiman]

I'm vehemently against the whole 'pre-order' industry concept so I'm relying on you guys to thoroughly analyze the game before it comes out so I can decide whether it's worth buy or not next year. Have fun with the beta!

You don't get charged until there is something to play. I haven't been charged for my pre-order yet, and won't be, until the beta keys are issued and I register the one I get.

[LDiCesare]

Beta has started.

[theenemy]

Elemental Beta Gameplay

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3KSDPO_BeY&feature=channel_page

[tgbob]

Ahhh if only I wasn't so broke I'd preorder the **** outta this game.

[Foodstamp]

So far it looks cool. The beta intro screen was pretty funny LOL and I really like the menu screen. The art style they are going for gives the game a unique feel. The part of the game we can play right now is 0 fun and moving the view around the map is clunky. So far I don't like any of the existing game mechanics except for the way cities are expanded upon (Taking up more of the map).

[Kofiman]

Got a long way to go. For the record, here's the schedule.

http://forums.elementalgame.com/363845

[boogiebac]

After reading through this thread and being horrified at the attention that concept art was getting, I had the guys whip up come cooler peices to replace the....questionable ones ;)

Like Kofiman says, we have a long friggin' way to go, but thanks for everyones interest in Elemental!

(Producer @ Stardock)

[theenemy]

OH MY F****** GOD!! A STARDOCK DUDE JUST WROTE IN MY THREAD!! THAT IS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!! OMG OMG OMG*jumps up and down while screaming*
MAEK LOEV 2 ME!!!!!

[Sombre]

Well at least now we know he won't be coming back.

[vfb]

Ha ha ha :D

boogiebac didn't give the link, so I'll provide it once more:

http://elementalgame.com/media.asp

It's much more appealing now, I think. The troll is very cool!

[theenemy]

Ha ha ha :D

boogiebac didn't give the link, so I'll provide it once more:

http://elementalgame.com/media.asp

It's much more appealing now, I think. The troll is very cool!

Heh. I get a feeling that those new images are kind of sarcastic:rolleyes: like parodies of blizzards artwork or something

[Sombre]

Well if that's the case it's sad that the parodies are way better than what they had.

[boogiebac]

Heh. I get a feeling that those new images are kind of sarcastic:rolleyes: like parodies of blizzards artwork or something

No sarcasim intended :D...the actual character work was done a few months ago, with the background color-wash and border linework done last week. We love and worship the stuff that comes out of Blizzard :bow: Our only sin has been to put up crappy model sheets as concept art and not replacing them sooner ;)

Glad the new artwork is more pleasing :)

[vfb]

Oh hey, I forgot, this is an astoundingly entertaining read:

http://elementalgame.com/journals.asp

Frogboy rocks! Love the 'scope, man.

[theenemy]

Heh. I get a feeling that those new images are kind of sarcastic:rolleyes: like parodies of blizzards artwork or something

No sarcasim intended :D...the actual character work was done a few months ago, with the background color-wash and border linework done last week. We love and worship the stuff that comes out of Blizzard :bow: Our only sin has been to put up crappy model sheets as concept art and not replacing them sooner ;)

Glad the new artwork is more pleasing :)

Ok:D Wish I could worship blizzard as much as you but i can't. Their games are awful for my taste;)

[Foodstamp]

Heh. I get a feeling that those new images are kind of sarcastic:rolleyes: like parodies of blizzards artwork or something

No sarcasim intended :D...the actual character work was done a few months ago, with the background color-wash and border linework done last week. We love and worship the stuff that comes out of Blizzard :bow: Our only sin has been to put up crappy model sheets as concept art and not replacing them sooner ;)

Glad the new artwork is more pleasing :)

Boom head shot? :p

[NTJedi]

We love and worship the stuff that comes out of Blizzard :bow:

Diablo_3 and Starcraft_2 will not allow LAN games... it's too bad Blizzard doesn't love us back.

[theenemy]

I'm spinning in my grave! Can't this game come out already?:cold:

[ghoul31]

I'm spinning in my grave! Can't this game come out already?:cold:

You aren't dead, so how can you be spinning in your grave?

[Foodstamp]

So far the beta group has a been a little disappointing to me. They want things taken out like perma-death for Sovereigns and want things added like Legolas elves. I hope the only version of an elf we have in the game is a pointed-ear head atop a spear. And when your Sovereign dies, I hope the game formats your computer.

[Fantomen]

I'm spinning in my grave! Can't this game come out already?:cold:

You aren't dead, so how can you be spinning in your grave?

When people discovered he was the enemy, they buried him alive with a laptop and a internet connection.

[theenemy]

I'm spinning in my grave! Can't this game come out already?:cold:

You aren't dead, so how can you be spinning in your grave?

When people discovered he was the enemy, they buried him alive with a laptop and a internet connection.

Haha:D

They actually tried to smash my head in with the laptop(an Acer Aspire 8935G btw;)), then left it there when they thought I was dead.
I got the internet connection by plugging in a Staff of Storms into a radioactive dinosaur corpse.

[LDiCesare]

So far the beta group has a been a little disappointing to me. They want things taken out like perma-death for Sovereigns and want things added like Legolas elves. I hope the only version of an elf we have in the game is a pointed-ear head atop a spear. And when your Sovereign dies, I hope the game formats your computer.
Perma death for the Sovereign is not an issue to me. Game over on sovereign death is. It's a gameplay issue because Brad Wardell says himself the ai will have lots of computation to do to avoid being killed and therefore he's looking for ways to make it hard to kill a sovereign, which means he's designing the game around a core feature and then trying to work around that core feature because the ai won't handle it.
The current implementation of sovereign death is also particularly annoying: When you kill a soevereign, all his cities just vanish (but not the units).

Now many players in the beta think game over on sovereign death is a good idea, and I haven't seen anyone asking for Legolas elves on the beta forums.

[Foodstamp]

There are many threads asking for stock fantasy races. The reason I like the idea of the Sovereign dying = game over is because the sovereign is supposed to represent you, and also it adds an element of danger to the game that makes it more exciting. The cities vanishing is lame, and I hope they change that.

[NTJedi]

There are many threads asking for stock fantasy races.
It's not unreasonable expecting fantasy races since it's a fantasy game. In my opinion it doesn't have to be stock fantasy races, but anything is better than having only human good and human bad.


The reason I like the idea of the Sovereign dying = game over is because the sovereign is supposed to represent you, and also it adds an element of danger to the game that makes it more exciting.

Adding an element of danger with the Sovereign dying can be done without meaning instant game over. The dominions series did it correctly because the death of the pretender has a serious penalty.
In Elemental I'd hate to suddenly lose a game because another player got lucky casting a volcano or because some Balrog was released by independent adventurers. Whether or not a player loses the game by the sovereigns death means the sovereign will be more and more likely hiding deep in a tower during middle and late game.

What other recent TBS games makes you believe tying a win/lose event to a single unit would be successful?

[Foodstamp]

For years we have seen games drift from being hard to being very easy. It's refreshing when a game comes around that offers challenges such as the sovereign death = game over. I think Dwarf Fortress is a great example of how a game can be fun and very difficult. It shouldn't be a matter of naming current TBSs that use the mechanic, and the reason why is because I don't want to play a game that has to have rules that have been done before in a TBS. I don't mind if this game strays away from the ordinary. And it sounds like losing your Sovereign isn't going to be a thing that just happens on a dice roll. It sounds like it is going to be very difficult to lose a sovereign. It creates another win/lose condition to the game. Enough people are clamoring for it to be gone that it doesn't matter anyway. They will remove the feature or they will make it where you can toggle it on and off.

[Gregstrom]

I certainly never thought Total Annihilation was a bad game because Commander death = game over.

[sector24]

I'm pretty sure that they won't implement stock fantasy races into the base game. They have the tools that will allow the modding community to do that kind of work for them. As far as the sovereign thing, it really depends on the game balance, especially because the game touts the kind of decisions where your sovereign spends his essence on things which is supposed to make him weaker. Age of Wonders had that game mode where if you lost your "king" hero you lost the game. It was fun actually, but I'm not sure it should be the default.

Either way, keep the impressions/updates coming as new stuff gets released. :up:

[chrispedersen]

For years we have seen games drift from being hard to being very easy. It's refreshing when a game comes around that offers challenges such as the sovereign death = game over. I think Dwarf Fortress is a great example of how a game can be fun and very difficult. It shouldn't be a matter of naming current TBSs that use the mechanic, and the reason why is because I don't want to play a game that has to have rules that have been done before in a TBS. I don't mind if this game strays away from the ordinary. And it sounds like losing your Sovereign isn't going to be a thing that just happens on a dice roll. It sounds like it is going to be very difficult to lose a sovereign. It creates another win/lose condition to the game. Enough people are clamoring for it to be gone that it doesn't matter anyway. They will remove the feature or they will make it where you can toggle it on and off.


time and time again I try to get into Dwarf Fortress.

I *don't* care about graphics..
(I loved Rogue, and hack, and asciTrek)

But damn I just can't get into it. What was that//? again?

[Foodstamp]

time and time again I try to get into Dwarf Fortress.

I *don't* care about graphics..
(I loved Rogue, and hack, and asciTrek)

But damn I just can't get into it. What was that//? again?

Oh you should try it with a good graphic mod pack. it makes the game more fun for me :). Go to the forum and there is bound to be an excellent one on the first page of the modding forum.

[Sombre]

I certainly never thought Total Annihilation was a bad game because Commander death = game over.

It didn't. I'm confused.

[NTJedi]

For years we have seen games drift from being hard to being very easy. It's refreshing when a game comes around that offers challenges such as the sovereign death = game over.

And thus there's no reason why the sovereigns death cannot be an optional setting. Personally anyone who feels a game should only serve their purpose is being selfish.


I think Dwarf Fortress is a great example of how a game can be fun and very difficult. It shouldn't be a matter of naming current TBSs that use the mechanic, and the reason why is because I don't want to play a game that has to have rules that have been done before in a TBS. I don't mind if this game strays away from the ordinary. And it sounds like losing your Sovereign isn't going to be a thing that just happens on a dice roll. It sounds like it is going to be very difficult to lose a sovereign.
Stardock has a solid history of being able to provide very difficult games. As I mentioned earlier having the Sovereign's death tied to losing a game means the player will use him less and less likely during middle and late game. If you need to better visualize the effect than picture what would happen if the next Dominions_3 patch meant instant game over upon a pretenders death. The first result would be no pretenders with low hitpoints(10 or less) and the second result would be no pretenders being used as SC's during middle and late game.


It creates another win/lose condition to the game. Enough people are clamoring for it to be gone that it doesn't matter anyway. They will remove the feature or they will make it where you can toggle it on and off.
And with a toggle on/off option the game still has the instant lose condition... simply it doesn't force everyone to play the same way. Personally all this instant lose condition will do is have players hide their sovereigns since even being unlucky while traveling can kill you. I'm all about providing very difficult games where the AI opponents have a strong advantage and sovereigns death being game over would be more useful for the human player than any AI opponent.


I certainly never thought Total Annihilation was a bad game because Commander death = game over.


Total Annihilation was an RTS, big difference from TBS.

[LDiCesare]

For years we have seen games drift from being hard to being very easy. It's refreshing when a game comes around that offers challenges such as the sovereign death = game over. I think Dwarf Fortress is a great example of how a game can be fun and very difficult.

I totally disagree with the asertion that sovereign death = game over makes the game harder.
On the contrary.
Kill 1 unit of the ai, and you've won.
I never managed to like Dwarf Fortress, but in roguelikes, when you die and it's over, it's cool because you're playing one individual, because it makes the game harder.
In my opinion, Elemental is adding a mechanism that the ai can't handle to defend itself, and I am not interested in playing an individual but a nation in such a game.

[happygeek]

If I understand correctly, the talk was now having an exceptionally poor workaround for avoiding sovereign death: if defending, the sovereign automatically retreats to the nearest friendly city, instead of dying. That seems to me to be a particulary poor way of removing penalties for risky use of a sovereign.
Even though I would much prefer to have the game end (or some very serious penaly) if my sovereign "dies" -- perhaps he goes to some MMORPG-type of purgatory from which he must return -- I would be satisfied if this were an option I could turn on without having to mod. I believe it would increase the RPG-type of feeling.

That said, I am greatly disappointed with the little bit I have been able to see in Beta so far. It looks like the combat -- and hence the entire mechanism behind military victories, behind constructing units and research military power -- is vastly undercomplex; it looks even less promising that the combat system of GalCiv2. Or maybe I am misunderstanding everything.

[LDiCesare]

That said, I am greatly disappointed with the little bit I have been able to see in Beta so far. It looks like the combat -- and hence the entire mechanism behind military victories, behind constructing units and research military power -- is vastly undercomplex; it looks even less promising that the combat system of GalCiv2. Or maybe I am misunderstanding everything.

Give them time, the real combat system isn'tt even implemented. what we have now is but a placeholder.

[Mithras]

I wander about the whole sovereign death thing; my rather fuzzy memory suggests that the game had a dynastic focus, especially in regards to diplomacy. So the simple solution would be to make full use of that and require that you have an heir to keep playing if your sovereign dies. This could lead to a more interesting diplomatic system, what if you married your only heir to a competing royal family, what are the consequences of having an underage heir and so on.

Just seems as though the developers aren't thinking everything through from what I can see.

[LDiCesare]

The dynasty thing is a rather late idea. The core idea has always been to play an almost divine individual. Dynasties are for vassals.
Now I don't say that it's consistent, but we will see whether vassal dynasties diplomacy has any meaning if it all revvolves about killing enemy sovereigns.

[Foodstamp]

I wander about the whole sovereign death thing; my rather fuzzy memory suggests that the game had a dynastic focus, especially in regards to diplomacy. So the simple solution would be to make full use of that and require that you have an heir to keep playing if your sovereign dies. This could lead to a more interesting diplomatic system, what if you married your only heir to a competing royal family, what are the consequences of having an underage heir and so on.

Just seems as though the developers aren't thinking everything through from what I can see.

Thats the general idea ala Total War series. Where it strays from it is the idea is that you are the sovereign, not his/her heirs. So you can have kids, grandkids etc but when you die, your out of the game. This may have already changed or probably will change as the community molds the clay to look more like other TBSs but as of the last time I read it, that is the way it worked.

[Foodstamp]

lol @ my lack of apostrophes and commas.

[theenemy]

Been a while now and still no EW:M.... Starting to feel slightly depressed:hurt:

Here's a picture of a cat just to prove the authenticy of this post

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3282/2583671923_69c8cae16f_b.jpg

[Balakirev]

The kitten rules.

In other matters, the one thing thus far that I don't like in what's been shown of E:WoM is the inability to limit world rulers (okay, I want to say pretenders, so I will!) to specific spell groups by type. What I mean is something along the lines of what Master of Magic and Dominions 3 do: you take X many books/levels of Nature, and you get Y many Nature spells. Other pretenders without Nature chosen at the start can't get those spells. Tends to make for more customized and distinct pretenders, in my opinion.

Otherwise, I'm very interested in the way E:WoM is going. And Stardock has a history of turning out games with excellent AI, so I don't think we'll see a repeat of the problems along those lines that dogged MoM.

[sector24]

I used 4 death gems to animate this necromantic thread...

How is beta 1B so far? Likes? Dislikes?

[happygeek]

I've found the beta to be, so far, tiresome. It is much less of a beta as it is an alpha. Stardock pushed back the release date from spring to fall of next year so as to extend the "beta" phase, and so it feels as if we goons are there for free sandbox testing for them. So far, the game does not feel inspired; it feels like a bare-bones CivIV without religion. Of course, the product will turn out to be vastly different, but you asked how the beta was going so far, and basically, it is still in its diaper phase; haven't learned to walk yet, much less talk.

[Foodstamp]

My experience has been the same as happygeek so far. One of the newly implemented features I do like is how you can customize your soldier's description card, including pose and quotes. It's the little things that I think will set the game apart. I doubt I will actually enjoy the beta until you can actually fight stuff. Right now fighting looks like Leylines combat system.

[Centuryslayer]

sounds cool, I remember seeing the first previews and I was kinda impressed. it certainly looks and sounds better now, which is good :3

[Baalz]

Heh, I found this quote interesting:

As Stardock CEO Brad Wardell mentions in another post about Elemental on the Impulse web site. " . . . beta 1 will NOT be fun in any way. We are not kidding about this. Our objective with this first build is to get the parameters on which the game runs, how well it runs."

[Centuryslayer]

^that is usually the case with early beta versions ~~

I remember M&B being quite barren when it began.

[Folket]

Will this game have hotseat multiplayer?

[Foodstamp]

^that is usually the case with early beta versions ~~

I remember M&B being quite barren when it began.

M&B beta compared to now; WOW completely different game!

[Balakirev]

The more it's like MoM, the better--except for the much improved AI, of course. ;)

[chrispedersen]

Actually, I thought MoM's AI was pretty damn good.
Sure beatable. But varied, effective, and never a pushover.

That said, I wouldn't care one iota if the game shipped without an AI, and was just mp.

I know I'm in the minority on that one.

[Foodstamp]

Actually, I thought MoM's AI was pretty damn good.
Sure beatable. But varied, effective, and never a pushover.

That said, I wouldn't care one iota if the game shipped without an AI, and was just mp.

I know I'm in the minority on that one.

Actually the AI in MOM was never varied, never effective and always a pushover. Changing the difficulty settings only allowed the AI to cheat on unit production and spell research, power etc. AI is ridiculously hard to make challenging though so I don't fault MOM, Dominions or any other game in that corner. The interesting thing about Elemental is that AI is Brad Wardell's specialty. So the AI should be noticeably better than MoM or Dominions.

MOM for me nowadays is just an RPG where I loot all the magic sites on the maps, no matter the difficulty level. Dominions I can still make challenging via modding and custom maps, so even with the terrible AIs, I still get a challenge and lots of fun out of both games.