Mind Hunting and Astral levels

[GrudgeBringer]

Question...
I know S5 is good for late game as it is about where you want to be to protect yourself aagianst spells.

What i would like to know is...do I need to take S5 on my pretender BEFORE the game to aquire the protection, or can I take S4 and use a Cap to bring it up to 5 and will it do the same thing?

I was worried about it being like blesses, but S5 doesn't give that extra bless which made me wonder if I gould get by and spend the points elsewhere.

Thanks:up:

[Trumanator]

I'm not sure I understand your question. S5 is for the most part only really good for pretenders w/3 misc slots, as it means they can wish, whereas most w/full slots need S6. If your talking about mind hunt protection, then I think S3 is all you need to catch them 90% of the time. If you're talking about magic duel, then obviously more S is better, but boosters wont help you, its only you're base that matters. I'm not sure how it works w/empowerment though.

[Illuminated One]

You mean magic duel I guess?

S1 is enough to protect from Mindhunts.

Magic Duel however works like this iirc:

Enemy base Astral (boosters are not counted) + d6 >= Your base Astral + d6 => you're dead

So even a S5 mage can die against a S1 mage. The chance is about 8%. Against a S2 mage the chance is about 16%.

[Trumanator]

S1 _does_ protect you from mindunts. However, IIRC its only something like a 30-40% chance of catching the hunter. Certainly sufficient to deter the majority of mind hunters, but against say, Arco, who will just heal them up again, or someone with the chalice, it might not be enough. If you want to guarentee protection, S3 is what you need.

[Calahan]

Magic Duel only takes the base Astral path of the affected mages into consideration. Increasing Astral via boosters or communions has no affect on the magic duel mechanics. Although when it comes to the Pretender, you are of course not limited by your starting Astral level at the beginning of the game, as you can always empower to higher levels. The only fixed things regarding magic paths in the design phase are the bless effects.


Edit: The below only applies to being safe against S1 mages. Sorry for any confusion it caused. Have not edited the below as it appears in thejeff's post below.

You need a base Astral of 7 to be completely safe from Magic Duel, if my info is correct.

[Trumanator]

Uhh, I would assume that an S9 pretender would kill an S7 w/magic duel?

[thejeff]

You need a base Astral of 7 to be completely safe from Magic Duel, if my info is correct.

To be completely safe from Magic Duel from S1 mages. 1+6 < 7+1
If your enemy is willing to burn S3-4 mages to kill your pretender, it's hard to be completely safe.

[Calahan]

Yes, many apologies, S7 only protects you from S1 mages. There is no such thing as being completely safe from Magic Duel, as it all depends on the Astral levels of the mages involved. A difference of 6 or more is required to offer safety.

[OmikronWarrior]

Does anyone have any experience using "decoys" mages again Mind Duel? Some nations have cheap S1 mages that can be recruited en masse and placed on the battlefield with a high value Astral Pretender. If Mind Duel preferentially targets lower Astral mages due to greater liklihood of success, it'd be a great boon. So, anyone with any experience?

[Sombre]

I believe it's either random or will go with the higher hp. Doesn't seem to go for the lower S level.

[thejeff]

I think I read here somewhere that it'll actually target the higher S mage.

Easy enough to test I suppose.

[Illuminated One]

Well, I think it targets the highest s mage first, so I've always used mages with higher s than the SC in question.
Never got one cast at me though.

[chrispedersen]

Hard to statistically say.

My anecdotal last dozen mindhunts seems to agree higher s, then higher hp; magic duel.
In milkshake I killed a dozen or so Marignon's goetics.... and lesser astrals.

[OmikronWarrior]

Hard to statistically say.

My anecdotal last dozen mindhunts seems to agree higher s, then higher hp

Mind Hunt or Magic Duel?

[Sombre]

He must mean magic duel.

People get the names confused a lot. Most people say mind duel. It feels more like a mind duel than a magic duel.

[chrispedersen]

yeah I said magic duel at the end.. just couldn't correct it at the front because of time elapsed

[GrudgeBringer]

So if you need a level of 6 better than the casting mage to secure yourself from Magic Duel, then other than for Forging or cetain other spells (Arcane Nexas) ect there would be no real reason to put ANY Astral on your pretender as it draws duels...

Am I getting this right?:confused:

[TwoBits]

So if you need a level of 6 better than the casting mage to secure yourself from Magic Duel, then other than for Forging or cetain other spells (Arcane Nexas) ect there would be no real reason to put ANY Astral on your pretender as it draws duels...

Am I getting this right?:confused:

For pretenders you want to use as SCs, that is exactly right!

If you need strategic mobility on your pretender, you'd better go for Air and Cloud Trapeze. Low levels of Astral is just a sure way to get him killed if you send him against any race with Astral capability (or anyone who's found Lizard Shamans, etc.).

[thejeff]

Astral on the pretender is risky, but can be very useful.
Astral bless can be nice for some nations. Some of the immobile pretenders can get to S9 fairly cheaply, which pretty much eliminates the magic duel worry. High S levels allow for easy first round Mass Enslave attacks.

Lower levels of Astral are really nice for nations with little or no Astral magic. Forging Rings of Sorcery/Wizardry is one of the main keys to diversifying.

I also think the danger from Magic Duel is overstated. It's a threat certainly and really low levels of S should be avoided. With S5 or S6, anyone but nations with high S mages or cheap S1 mages aren't really a threat.

[Psycho]

If you take an immortal pretender you need not worry. And you could use him to magic duel enemy astral mages or SCs in your dominion.

[Tolkien]

Since we're on the topic: if a magic duel kills a communion master, do the communion slaves die as well?

[MaxWilson]

Magic Duel is an area effect (it will kill anyone in the same square as the loser) and communions don't transmit area effects so the answer is probably "no."

-Max

[Tolkien]

Wait, magic duel is an AoE 1?

This is also a startling relevation.

[rdonj]

Since we're on the topic: if a magic duel kills a communion master, do the communion slaves die as well?

No, they do not die. Also, I am pretty sure magic duels target at least somewhat randomly. I played a game where I was magic dueling communions with small, low hp weak mages and large, strong mages with lots of hp. The first two magic duels hit the large guys, but then I also hit a small one or two while there were still some of the bigger guys on the field.

[Agema]

When thinking about sending out your astral pretender to fight, you'd want to consider the astral capabilities of your opponent. If your enemy can get within 3 astral of you easily (e.g. S1 versus S4 pretender, S3 versus S6 pretender), don't.

After that, it depends on a simple cost/benefit analysis.

S3-4 mages are usually only rare, cap-only. I don't seriously believe anyone would expend them magic duelling an S+5 pretender, as they'd only have a 3% chance of success, and anyone desperate enough to waste that many expensive mages when the other guy can just call his god back (albeit with -1 all paths) is either doomed or so powerful it doesn't matter. It's quite possible your average opponent wouldn't even take the risk against an S+4 god: 8% chance means stastically you'd very likely lose more than half a dozen. On the other hand, someone might very happily expend a ton of cheap 60-100GP S1/S2 mages to kill a S+5 pretender, and certainly an S+4 pretender.

[Phonics]

Just got my S9 pretender feebleminded by an S1 mage.

Feels good

[Oparin]

I was just playing a 1 on 1 game where I had about 8 enchanters (1S2N) in a province scripted to communion master/slave, and my enemy's pretender was 9S and cast Mind Hunt one time on that province and lost. Since the pretender was an oracle and they had no way of healing him, it pretty much ended the game right there.

I've read over this thread but I still don't understand how that was possible. What are the chances of that happening?

edit: Hi Phonics!

[Gregstrom]

Mind Hunt is not the same as a Magic Duel.

[TheDemon]

He didn't "lose" the mind hunt. He got his astral cord cut. His own astral level is irrelavent for this. An S1 mage has a 30 to 40% chance of cutting a cord on a hostile astral mage performing a remote astral ritual on the province, regardless of the hostile mage's level.

[vfb]

When thinking about sending out your astral pretender to fight, you'd want to consider the astral capabilities of your opponent. If your enemy can get within 3 astral of you easily (e.g. S1 versus S4 pretender, S3 versus S6 pretender), don't.

After that, it depends on a simple cost/benefit analysis.

S3-4 mages are usually only rare, cap-only. I don't seriously believe anyone would expend them magic duelling an S+5 pretender, as they'd only have a 3% chance of success, and anyone desperate enough to waste that many expensive mages when the other guy can just call his god back (albeit with -1 all paths) is either doomed or so powerful it doesn't matter. It's quite possible your average opponent wouldn't even take the risk against an S+4 god: 8% chance means stastically you'd very likely lose more than half a dozen. On the other hand, someone might very happily expend a ton of cheap 60-100GP S1/S2 mages to kill a S+5 pretender, and certainly an S+4 pretender.

I'd send an S3/S4 cap-only mage to Magic Duel an S5 god. You don't even need to slap on a cap to teleport. Disregarding friendly casualties, an S4 has a 15/36 chance against S5, an S3 has a 11/36 chance against S5.

When the god is called back, he'll have S4 and next time around it will be even easier.

I think I don't understand what you mean by an "S+5" pretender. Is that somehow different from "S5"?

[rdonj]

I think S+5 is supposed to mean 5 levels in astral above the magic dueler. I could be wrong.

[Lingchih]

He must mean magic duel.

People get the names confused a lot. Most people say mind duel. It feels more like a mind duel than a magic duel.

Mind Duel was from AD&D, was it not? Easy enough for most of us to confuse it then.

[Dragar]

do elixirs of life and the like restore you after a lost magic duel?

whether or not decoys work for mind duels, if you are going to be the defender, bring the s1 decoys with you and script mind duel yourself, hopefully taking out threats to your pretender

while taking S on a SC pretender is risky, there are of course benefits as it is such a powerful buffing school and critical to get rings of wizardy/sorcery and some of the great high end spells. Think the risk/reward through carefully

[Micah]

Yes, Elixirs and such do work. Phoenix pyre is the best option, though Life After Death is great for getting the most out of any weaker mages you have lying around, although their MR becomes completely worthless once they're soulless. On the bright side undead mastery strips them of commander status, so even if you lose them to that your opponent won't get much of worth out of the transition.

The problem with Elixirs is that they take up an equipment slot on your SC/pretender/whatever is worth using an elixir on, and they're too expensive to be worth using to protect some random national mage in most cases.

[Agema]

I think S+5 is supposed to mean 5 levels in astral above the magic dueler. I could be wrong.

Exactly right. I should have made that clear, sorry.