Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game. Game on!

[Burnsaber]

This is a small Warhammer inspired game to celebrate the addition of Bretonnia to the Dom 3 WH mod community.

NEWS:

Game is up on the llamaserver (http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Sign_of_the_Hammer).


Players:

Burnsaber - Ogre Kingdoms by Sombre
Llamabeast - Bretonnia by Burnsaber
Trumanator - Skaven by Sombre
Sombre - Tomb Kings by Llamabeast
Squirreloid - Chaos Undivided by Panpiper
DrPraetorious - Itza by Sombre

Rules

Players: 6
Settings: HoF 15, renaming on, otherwise normal
Mods: Warhammer_Six_Nations (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=711472&postcount=53)
Diplomacy:
1) Extremely Machieviellian and non-binding, spiced with the bitter taste of betrayal and agony
2) Trading of magical items banned (gems and money are fair game thought), to encourage national differences
3) What happens in the name of the "Sign of the Hammer" does not spread to any other games in no shape or form.

Map: The NI map "Fields of Battle" attachted to this post.

Other rules:
1) Roleplaying by characteristic posts (both in-game and in this thread) is heavily encouraged and appreciated.
2) Fighting to the last breath is expected in this game. If you are too time strained or unmotivated to play, please at least try to find a sub.

Hosting:
26h until people feel that it is not enough, at which point we will move 48h. Hopefully a 72h timer will never be needed.

Delays granted on request.

Victory Condition:

1) Ruling 3 capitals for 3 consecutive turns.
2) Concensus from other players

[Squirrelloid]

I'm in.
You can't touch this.

Itza, or if someone really wants Itza, Chaos.

Edit: Screw it, Chaos. Can't... resist... dark side...

[Trumanator]

Damnit, llama already called brettonia....:(

I'll take skaven in that case methinks :)

[Sombre]

The Hammer is a slaves tool. Fitting that as we rouse ourselves from our tombs, the world should see its future writ in the night sky.

[DrPraetorious]

I'll take Sylvania or Sangunia (if they are worked into the Mod) or lizardmen if it does not.

On which subject, should I package the combined mod? Do we want any CBMitude in there as well?

Oops: Hammer.

[Burnsaber]

I'll take Sylvania or Sangunia (if they are worked into the Mod) or lizardmen if it does not.

On which subject, should I package the combined mod? Do we want any CBMitude in there as well?

Oops: Hammer.

If you want to compile the mod, please do so. Brettonnia mod might be incompactible with the script (due to the mad mod haxoring with the battle summons), like the rest of my mods seem to be, for some inexplicable reason. But after compiling all other mods, I think that you could copy-paste Bretonnia into it and give it to me. I'll sort out any clashes.

As for CBM, I think that CBM 1.5 is fine. Let's include it now. I won't be 100% sure that CBM 1.6 be released in time for this game.

Also the Chaos mod has an seriously overpowered national pretender, I'll take the opportunity to nerf him while I fix the possible clashes.
I chose Ogres as my nation.

[TwoBits]

Damn, I'd like to get in on this. Is it all mod nations? I don't care, I just want to be involved in a pure RP game (I hate trying to RP other MP game communications at this point - you start with, "Greetings! We are the slaves of Lord So-and-So the Terrible..." - and wind up reduced to "OK, what booster do you need to cast that Ench-6 spell?" etc.). Especially want to play in a game with "real" diplomacy, meaning nothing that is binding (No, "sorry Hitler, you agreed to that NAP-3 with Stalin, so no Barbarossa until Winter of 42 for you!").

Plus a small, cozy 6 player game seems nice right about now :)

Don't know squat about "Itza", but I'd happily take them for a spin.

Oh, almost forgot, "Hammer Time".

[Burnsaber]

Damn, I'd like to get in on this. Is it all mod nations? I don't care, I just want to be involved in a pure RP game (I hate trying to RP other MP game communications at this point - you start with, "Greetings! We are the slaves of Lord So-and-So the Terrible..." - and wind up reduced to "OK, what booster do you need to cast that Ench-6 spell?" etc.). Especially want to play in a game with "real" diplomacy, meaning nothing that is binding (No, "sorry Hitler, you agreed to that NAP-3 with Stalin, so no Barbarossa until Winter of 42 for you!").

Plus a small, cozy 6 player game seems nice right about now :)

Don't know squat about "Itza", but I'd happily take them for a spin.

Oh, almost forgot, "Hammer Time".

Sorry, but the game is full. We already have 6 players.

If you want a roleplay-tastic game, I advise to start your own. I think that there is a demand for that kind of game, as long as the RPG aspect isn't too "extreme", so to speak. Perhaps just dictate that all messages should be in character? You should fill up with 6 players in no time.

[TwoBits]

Crud. If anyone bails, let me know :)

[Burnsaber]

I'll take Sylvania or Sangunia (if they are worked into the Mod) or lizardmen if it does not.

On which subject, should I package the combined mod? Do we want any CBMitude in there as well?

Oops: Hammer.

Now that we have the glorious CBM 1.6 available, it would be a shame not to use it. If it's still possible, it might best if we use it in the mod compilation.

[Trumanator]

Whats with all the hammers?

[llamabeast]

Just confirming I'm playing.

I wonder if three capitals is too few? I'm about to get three capitals in Crusaders, and I'm not that strong. If we were to increase it, I'd suggest four.

[Sombre]

It is the number after three. But I'm also worried that testing may reveal it to be the number before five.

[rdonj]

Aw, I missed it :(. Well, I'll be watching this game, hopefully there will be enough trash talk going on to get some idea what's happening.

[Burnsaber]

Just confirming I'm playing.

I wonder if three capitals is too few? I'm about to get three capitals in Crusaders, and I'm not that strong. If we were to increase it, I'd suggest four.

We'll you should notice that we only have 6 players. The idea is that the all of the winners of their first war (aka when we have 3 players left probably sometime after turn 35) have a shot at the win.

With 3 players controlling 2 capitols and three required to win, things will get very intresting ;).

[Sombre]

You know given that more people have shown interest in this than there are spaces available, perhaps a second warhammer game should be started shortly after this one with identical settings. It could then use the same combined mod, same NI map etc.

It would be an interesting experiment to see how differently the two games played out. Of course the major difference would be the players, but it would also allow for different builds etc for the mod nations and obviously result in more feedback.

[DrPraetorious]

Okay, so - CBM 1.6 plus the various nation mods?

I'll set the packaging up some time this afternoon, will post here if I have problems.

[DrPraetorious]

Here it is. I deleted the crazy pretender from Chaos Undivided, but have made no other changes.

If we want to make a few further changes beyond CBM 1.6 + the six nations, I suggest changing this file directly?

[DrPraetorious]

Oh, and I decided I really liked the lizard artwork, so I'm Itza.

[Squirrelloid]

Here it is. I deleted the crazy pretender from Chaos Undivided, but have made no other changes.

If we want to make a few further changes beyond CBM 1.6 + the six nations, I suggest changing this file directly?

I believe Burnsaber had some ideas on how to make the 'crazy' pretender from Chaos undivided reasonable.

That said, I'm not especially interested in using him, although if thematic is important he really is my only decent choice.

[DrPraetorious]

I was going to say, a number of these nations are missing expanded pretender choices, would people mind if I added them?

Nehekara and Bretonnia both have extensive options presumably picked out consciously.

My suggested addition list (not meant to complete):

Skaven has a national pretender (although he isn't the Great Horned Rat, which he should be), but still: Lord of the Summer Plague, Lord of Rebirth, Ageless Olm, Monolith, Carrion Dragon, Dracolich, Destroyer of Worlds.

Itza should be allowed to get: Phoenix, Mother of Serpents, Mother of Monsters, Sphinx, Glyph, Ageless Olm, Risen Oracle.

Chaos Undivided should be allowed to get: Lord of the Summer Plague, Son of Fenrir, Drakaina, Moloch, Lady of Love, Mother of Monsters, Deva, Great Black Bull, Lord of the Wild, Lord of War, Forge Lord, Destroyer of Worlds, Nataraja.

Ogre Kingdoms should be allowed to get: Son of Niefel, Lord of Rebirth, Skratti, Bog Mummy, Monolith, Great Mother, Lord of Fertility, Father of Winters, Virtue.

[Squirrelloid]

I was going to say, a number of these nations are missing expanded pretender choices, would people mind if I added them?

Nehekara and Bretonnia both have extensive options presumably picked out consciously.

My suggested addition list (not meant to complete):

Skaven has a national pretender (although he isn't the Great Horned Rat, which he should be), but still: Lord of the Summer Plague, Lord of Rebirth, Ageless Olm, Monolith, Carrion Dragon, Dracolich, Destroyer of Worlds.

Itza should be allowed to get: Phoenix, Mother of Serpents, Mother of Monsters, Sphinx, Glyph, Ageless Olm, Risen Oracle.

Chaos Undivided should be allowed to get: Lord of the Summer Plague, Son of Fenrir, Drakaina, Moloch, Lady of Love, Mother of Monsters, Deva, Great Black Bull, Lord of the Wild, Lord of War, Forge Lord, Destroyer of Worlds, Nataraja.

Ogre Kingdoms should be allowed to get: Son of Niefel, Lord of Rebirth, Skratti, Bog Mummy, Monolith, Great Mother, Lord of Fertility, Father of Winters, Virtue.

I was honestly wondering about the lack of Moloch for Chaos.

I wouldn't mind those additions at all, although the agartha specific pretenders seem slightly weird for Agartha... (So does the lady of love without some reflavoring for Chaos.)

[Sombre]

Skaven has a national pretender (although he isn't the Great Horned Rat, which he should be), but still: Lord of the Summer Plague, Lord of Rebirth, Ageless Olm, Monolith, Carrion Dragon, Dracolich, Destroyer of Worlds.

Itza should be allowed to get: Phoenix, Mother of Serpents, Mother of Monsters, Sphinx, Glyph, Ageless Olm, Risen Oracle.

Ogre Kingdoms should be allowed to get: Son of Niefel, Lord of Rebirth, Skratti, Bog Mummy, Monolith, Great Mother, Lord of Fertility, Father of Winters, Virtue.

There are several issues why the Great Horned Rat isn't in the mod. First and most important, Warhammer gods aren't really the same thing as pretenders. They're actual gods, not just big things with lots of magic. Secondly I don't really like doing big graphics and since verminlords are in his image, I guess he'd be a huge scaled up one of those. Though he is mentioned to take thousands of unspeakable forms, it's not like any of them are really depicted anywhere, because he's a proper God, with the whole omnipotent but not physically present thing going on. Also I don't like doing pretenders more generally.

I don't agree with most of those you list. I mean Virtue for Ogre Kingdoms? What? Risen Oracle for Itza?

[Burnsaber]

I tested the complimation mod real quick and found no clashes. Even Bretons battle summons seem to work as intented. Nice job :up:, Dr.P!

As for the additional pretender choices, I'd leave them out for now. If you want to see them, I'd suggest to make a case for it in the mod thread. IMHO, at least chaos and Ogres could use some additional vanilla pretender choices. But adding/testing them isn't the point of this game.

Amonchakad was apparently designing another warhammer mod game and apparently has a nice complimation of changes to the Chaos mod to make it more thematic & balanced. I'll look into his ideas and implemet those me and squirreloid see necessary.

I've generated a nice looking and somwhat balanced map with 84 land and 4 sea provinces. I'll release it as soon as I manage to give it the "NI" treatment.

As for your nice idea Sombre, yeah. I'll create a duolicate game once the mod and map are finalized.

If things go even somewhat as planned, the game will likely be up on the llamaserver by Sunday (sorry, but I'm pretty busy with school before weekend).

[DrPraetorious]

Re: Risen Oracle for Slaan. I was using it as a "placeholder" for a Slaan Lich. It seemed closer than the saurolich.

Re: Virtue for Ogre Kingdoms. Yes, okay, that was a bit of a joke :).

I'm going to manage with a vanilla pretender, I suppose.

[Burnsaber]

I uploaded the map to the first post.

[DrPraetorious]

*bump*

Are we playing? If so, post whatever modifications you've made to the Chaos Mod, I will mix it in and we can start this week :)?

[archaeolept]

the hornblower shows up as a pretender - I'm trying out that package, hoping to familiarize myself w/ the nations in time for whenever the next WH game is (hopefully soon!). Is he displacing some national? I certainly didn't see any chaos god pretender choice. I do have CBM 1.6 enabled...

also, the sprites in some of these mods are simply amazing. I didn't think such artistry and attention to detail was even possible, given the limitations.

[archaeolept]

the magic paths for itza and chaos commanders are messed up. I doubt that the 1 gp chameleon skink scout is supposed to have 1a 4s, or the skink priest 4d 1n 3? (also warchief and oldblood have hvy paths) - and, strangely coincidentally, 3 of the 4 chaos "lords" have no magic at all... for 400 gp that seems a bit steep ;)

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, i've reviewed the amonchaos version

Lord of the Endtimes should be corrected to the version we discussed burnsaber. Also, with those corrections, new paths should also be reduced to 50 instead of 80. The amonchaos version is unplayably expensive (and has encumbrance too, so its 150pts for probably a 50pt chassis). Not that I plan on using one.

I've come to the conclusion that the lords are all priced wrong and far too high, with the possible exception of tzeentch. The champions are probably also poorly priced too. Details:

General: All the lords should have at least H1.

Nurgle Lord isn't even that good. He can't SC, and he has no magic, so he's just a glorified thug. The lord is lucky if he's 200g good, which gives me doubts on the 200g pricetag of the champion. Fix: I don't know man. Dropping the price to 200g would mean needing to seriously re-evaluate teh champion.

Slaanesh was somewhat playable in the original, but not amazing. Amonchaos then goes and nerfs his enslave attack to be easily resisted (at least i think it was changed - before amonchaos i had 80-90% success using it against indies), and now its mostly useless. Drop the price to 250 and restore the enslave attack to not be easily resisted. (even with the dropped pricetag, its not exactly an attack that chaos will be *spamming*)

Tzeentch Lord: Agree with 500g pricetag, given caveat on H1 above.

Khorne: The 3 fatigue per turn absolutely kills the utility of this unit early, and its a glorified thug later. probably 200-250g.

That brings us to champions:
With the exception of Tzeentch I'd drop the champions to 100-150g tops. Probably Slaanesh >= Khorne > Nurgle, but rated at something like 125g, 115g, 90g or something like that. I might also consider giving them H1 at those or slightly higher prices. (Compare to jotun herses/jarls. Yomi may also be a decent nation to compare to). Tzeentch may deserve a mild price decrease, say 175.

Basically, the chaos lords and champions are priced as if they had halfway decent magic. Tzeentch meets that expectation, but the others definitely don't. I suppose the alternate fix is to give them reasonable magic, but that strikes me as harder. (I suppose Nurgle Champions could have D2H1 and the Lord have D4H2, with W2H1 and W4H2 for Slaanesh. Giving Khorne magic is sort of out of the question, and that's not an exciting amount of magic - probably still worth a mild price decrease, eg, 175 and 350ish pricetags. It would also make the Nurgle Lord actually good at some point since eventually he can cast Soul Vortex). Under this theory, Tzeentch Champion should keep the 200 pricetag and probably become S2 + 50%S + 33%S, as H1 seems less thematic for Tzeentch, but the current state of the Tz champion is acceptable.

The troops, on the other hand, do seem relatively reasonably priced.

[Trumanator]

When you are using the mod, make sure you DO NOT enable cbm 1.6, as it is already incorporated in the mod. Otherwise you get weirdness like Archae did.

[Burnsaber]

*bump*

Are we playing? If so, post whatever modifications you've made to the Chaos Mod, I will mix it in and we can start this week :)?

Ok, here we go. (Sorry for the delay, I was away from a computer for a while). Here is the final version of the chaos mod. I didn't go as radical on the Chaos commanders as Squirreloid suggested, but went in the general direction he presented.

Also, I got struck by an odd bug. The game crashes when I try to start a game, saying a message "too many sprites in a mod". Which is extremely odd, since I started many, many test game with the mod before. The problem is probably on my end.

[rdonj]

Hmm, I don't know that the lord of khorne was really so bad off. Last time I played chaos, a lord of khorne was easily able to solo almost any province. They do still have innate fear and weapons of sharpness, right?

[archaeolept]

yah. against crappy indies, maybe. I guess the berserk helps... but really, killing indies isn't much to speak of.

[Squirrelloid]

Hmm... i got an error - can't find clandwarf? In the chaos mod? Do i need to be using the other combined mod? Why would that involve clandwarves anyway?

Edit: I suppose relevantly - is the new chaos mod already incorporated into the starting mod? Is it meant to run companion to it?

[Burnsaber]

Hmm... i got an error - can't find clandwarf? In the chaos mod? Do i need to be using the other combined mod? Why would that involve clandwarves anyway?

Edit: I suppose relevantly - is the new chaos mod already incorporated into the starting mod? Is it meant to run companion to it?

:doh:

My bad. Fixed version in this post (I didn't inlcude graphics, just .dm file, because that is where the error was)

[Squirrelloid]

I have this sense that even with the changes you've made, Lord of Tzeentch and Champion of Tz are among the only playable options for chaos lords.

I'll agree, the Lord of Nurgle *looks* like he has a lot going on. But have you tried to *use* him? Even the khornate lord outperforms against weak PD.

Stats (Lords)
Khorn: 300g 49r; Str 17 Att 17 Def 22; HP 30 Prot 21; Berzerk 6 Exh 3
Nurgle: 375g 50r; Str 15 Att 15 Def 18; HP 34 Prot 20; H1 Regen20% Fear+0 PR100 Undead PlagueCarrier Rejuvenation
Slaanesh: 375g 49r; Str 13 Att 12 Def 19; HP 24 Prot 20; H1 Awe+3

All have a magical weapon. Slaanesh has a magical ranged attack (enslave mind).

Stats (Champions)
Khorn: 175g 33r; Str 17 Att 17 Def 12; HP 35 Prot 21; Berzerk 5 Exh 3
Nurgle: 250g 33r; Str 15 Att 15 Def 17; HP 30 Prot 20; Regen10% Fear +0 PR100 Undead PlagueCarrier Rejuvenation
Slaanesh: 175g 33r; Str 13 Att 13 Def 16; HP 24 Prot 20; Awe+1

(all are sacred)

Some comparison stats:
EA Atlantis
BQ: 250g 1r; Str 20 Att 12 Def 5; HP 48 Prot 14; H3 Amph F+0 FR50 CR50 DkVis
BK: 500g 1r; Str 21 Att 13 Def 12; HP 51 Prot 16; F1W2E3 +110%? Amph F+0 FR50 CR50 DkVis

A straight up comparison of hte BK with the Lord of Slaanesh reveals that 125g extra for the BK is well worth the price. Stats are reasonably equivalent (BK takes a lower Def in exchange for much higher str, and trades a few pts of prot for almost double HP), but the BK also adds 7.1 magic paths, and trades Awe+3 for amph, Fear, partial resistance to fire and cold, and dark vision. The BK comes out more than 125g extra good compared to the Nurgle Lord as well.

The BQ compares quite favorably to the identically priced Nurgle Champion. H3 is an amazing advantage relative to the Nurgle champion's total lack of casting.

Yomi:
Oni General: 130g 33r; Str 17 Att 13 Def 11; HP 30 Prot 20; D+100%? FR50 PR50 NNE Demon MtnSurv Glutton

A rather comparable chassis to the champion level units, including similar HP, protection, and slightly lower stats - but it also comes with some magical ability. Setting the chaos champions to approximately this price seems emminently reasonable by comparison.

Dao Oni: 500g 39r; Str 20 Att 16 Def 12; HP 50 Prot 20; F2E2D3H1 +110%? F+3 FR50 PR50 NNE Demon MtnSurv Glutton

If 8.1 magic paths beyond H1 isn't much more than 125g good than the chaos lords, i don't know what is. The chassis is otherwise comparable, trading defense for improved str and 80% more HP. Also has fear *+3*, as if it wasn't already a strictly better buy per gp than Nurgle's Lord.

Fomoria:
Nemedian Champion: 140g 25r; Str 13 Att 15 Def 18; HP 15 Prot 10; A1D1H1 Stlth+25 DkVis50 Glamour

Another reasonably comparable chassis to the champions. Note the few shortcomings are probably more than made up for by the magical paths.

Fomorian King: 500g 37r; Str 25 Att 12 Def 13; HP 70 Prot 15; A3D2H2 +110%? PoorAmph CR50 Sailing

Sailing is pretty amazing - it and 6.1 magic paths + an extra holy level go a long way to put it more than 125g beyond the chaos lord choices.

Jotunheim:
Jotun Herse: 60g 41r; Str 21 Att 12 Def 13; HP 32 Prot 17;

This is a perfect comparison. Same HP, not much less protection, more strength at lower att/def, merely sacred with no holy level. And its *1/3* the cost. Based on this, none of the champions should be much over 100g (excepting Tz who has magic).

Basically, there's no way to justify gold costs as high as they are for what those units do. I mean, if you leave it the way it is i can guarantee i'll be playing almost pure Tz and sorcerors for commanders, because they'll be the only ones worth buying.

The best fix is almost certainly to hand out some magic while cutting prices until those units are reasonable.

(The exalted sorceror is probably overpriced at present as well, since for 320g you're expecting quite a bit more magical oomph - compare to Shinuyama's bakemono sorceror).

[Burnsaber]

I'll agree, the Lord of Nurgle *looks* like he has a lot going on. But have you tried to *use* him? Even the khornate lord outperforms against weak PD.


Using a unit's performance against PD 'naked', perhaps isn't the best measuring stick on performance. The nurgle guy has poison cloud, that alone gives him a niche against armies of few elite units.


(The exalted sorceror is probably overpriced at present as well, since for 320g you're expecting quite a bit more magical oomph - compare to Shinuyama's bakemono sorceror).


I lowered his gold cost to 275 gold in the latest fix.

As for your insightful posts, I just really want to get the game started. If you feel like only the Tzeentecth guys are usable, just use them then. I don't have time and/or patience to give the lords and champions extensive magic pick and cost revamps and to test them. Chaos is pretty powerful enough as it stands, with its diverse magic, insane pretender chassis, good summons, strong troops and national late-game SC summons. You have some 'dead choices', which is a shame, but we really need to move along here. In hidsight, I should have taken a better look at chaos before starting this game, but what is done is done.

As for your unit comparisons, I find them quite insightful. You are forgetting one thing thought. Context. A lot power of the chassis/unit comes from the other choices you have in the nation. Example: BK would be a lot more powerful chassis in MA Ulm, since ulm has a *lot* better ability to forge gear for it.

Also remember that a nation that would have chassises which are somewhat equal to BK, Dai Oni and Fomorian King (respectively) would be serious candidate for overpowerdness. These units are absolute stars and selling points of their respective nations. You can't just compile an "all-stars" team of SC chassises and expect it to be balanced. There needs to be "diversity cost" added to each of them, where you pay for the options you have. Being diverse and having a lot of good options is also a national strenght, just like being able to bloosac, getting extra points due to temp scales and so forth.

Don't take this wrong, some of the Champions and Lords could probably use a boost, but you should also think of the context when estimating prices. IMHO, you probably should list your thoughts and comaprisons to the Chaos thread, I'm sure that he will find them insightful.

[Sombre]

Yeah I agree with burn. Rebalancing chaos is a different issue. Should either be a new project with the permission of panpiper, or submitted in feedback in panpiper's thread.

If they're overpowered or underpowered it will probably come out in this game and that's fine - there's a degree of experiment about any mod nations game.

[archaeolept]

with just the 6-pack mod enabled, I am still unable to see any "insane pretender chassis." Also, while those champions/lords do seem over-priced, rebalancing, as was said, needs to be done in total context. Simply comparing one to an EA BK does not do much.

[Squirrelloid]

I suppose my point was mostly that anything anywhere near this cost tends to have *substantial* magic, and that the differences in power between having 6-8 paths in magic and having no magic was large enough that they were clearly and grossly overpriced.

And the jotun herse is probably the most damning comparison, since its (a) MA and (b) has just about everything going on that the chaos champions do at 1/3 their price.

But that's fine, we can play as is.

[DrPraetorious]

A combined mod with the revised Chaos nation is attached.

I tend to agree with squirreloid about the costs of the chaos units (in fact, I think I said much the same thing in the thread to discuss the mod originally,) but those concerns do need to be counterbalanced, and I don't think we should hold up the game over it.

[Squirrelloid]

I have a "name2spell: No such spell" error that causes the game to crash when trying to create a pretender god with the combined mod.

[DrPraetorious]

Yeah, sorry about that - have to combine the mods in the correct order or bad things happen. Gimme a minute to sort it out.

[DrPraetorious]

Well, that doesn't make any ****ing sense but this order works. Doublecheck all those #d Bretonnian nationals again to make sure that the script handled them right? I'm rather worried about extreme strangeness.

[Squirrelloid]

Oh god, is this a ****ing joke? Chaos gets 'Dark Citadel' everywhere - which is an admin 20 UW fortress type for 1200 gold. Seriously? A nation of high gold high resource units that are going to underperform for their cost - exactly what they needed was a high gold long build time fortress everywhere that has crappy administration.

Finally, I keep trying to make this work, but Chaos has so many systematic flaws its ridiculous. It really wants to be a nation of blessed troops, but it has no good way to actually bless them (no priests over H1, and they fail to bless all of *4* troops on a regular basis. A single prophet is not good enough). The non-sacred troops are either insufficiently good to even expand routinely or too resource intensive to field in sufficient mass to accomplish anything. And chaos has none of the good army-buffing schools to improve their performance. Not to mention its hard to mass anything when your real commander choices start at around 200g.

I think I've resigned myself to losing this - there is no way chaos is even really playable without a major overhaul that addresses army synergy and commander costs.

And i just took a look at Itza - Morale 13 Prot 18 mega tramplers with archers on top *and* mages that are ridiculously cheap for what they do? Those mages should be 1k and 2k gold respectively, at the least, and the trampler should probably be near doubled in price since it has no real weaknesses. (What are the disadvantages of elephants? Oh yeah, morale and protection... no such problems here, which is just amazing - and Itza's stegasaurs have a mere 3 enc on top of that so you can't even count on fatiguing them out). Then their scouts are 1g(!) and have glamour(?!?) and stealth *+65*(!!!), and their Ld40 commanders are a mere *20g* 16r with a *magic weapon* (!!!) and good stats. What the hell is this? I bet they get cheap castles somewhere too. They could probably win just by spamming castles and building as many of theose 20g commanders as they can - they don't even need equipment (which they could certainly be provided). They also have cheap researchers, H3 priests, and all of their melee units have magic weapons (!!!). And they get to mass them for peanuts. What *doesn't* Itza do well? I feel like rdonj discovering his enemy has immortal death summons of stupidly awesome.

You know, there was a lot of whining about the Lord of the Endtimes before we nerfed it, but honestly, that's about the only thing Chaos had going for it. (And even he would just die to virtually anything Itza chose to field.) Now he's a glorified 50pt chassis with a 125pt pricetag.

----------

I'll die on the field of honor, but i think this game could greatly benefit from a serious rebalancing of nations to some standard, probably somewhere in the Bretonnia end of the spectrum, although *any* one standard of balance, even Itza levels of crazy, would be acceptable so long as *all* nations were balanced there. (I think by Itza standards Chaos Lords are like 40-50g units, except for Tz who might rate 200g).

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Edit: I see we nerfed the stats of the Tz Lord at some point too. Well, now they aren't worth 500g anymore, so Chaos officially has *nothing* worth buying. At 500g it should be an SC out of the box. I suggested increase the price or nerf the unit, certainly not both. I feel like the things i thought were a little overpowered have been nerfed into near uselessness, and the things that are underpowered haven't really been improved at all.

[Squirrelloid]

burnsaber/archeo/et al: What would you like me to compare to? I was trying to choose units near the same price point and with vaguely similar advantages - but there are no 400g units without magic. There are no 300g units without magic. Hell, I don't think there are any 200g units without magic. its hard to find decent comparisons when the units in question are so poorly designed that they fall vastly short of everything else remotely near their price range.

I could compare to the brettonian grail hero, which is much better than the Slaanesh lord at 150g less. (only Awe +1, but strictly better stats and *flying*, not to mention not cap only)

[DrPraetorious]

Compare to some nation other than Jotunheim? Giant werewolves and hirdmen are *ridiculously* good thugs. I agree that Chaos is presently, probably weak enough that it won't be fun for Squirreloid. Given how long we're taking anyway I think it's reasonable to take 1 day and make the game at least kinda fair for Squirreloid:
* Lord of Khorne -> 100 gp, lose the exhaustion
* Lord of Slaanesh -> 200 gp, H3, stealthy
* Lord of Nurgle -> 150 gp, H2
* Champion of Khorne -> 80 gp, lose the exhaustion
* Champion of Slaanesh -> 100 gp, H1, stealthy
* Champion of Nurgle -> 100 gp, H1
* Chaos Cultist -> 40 gp
* Chosen of Khorne -> 60 gp, no exhaustion
* Chosen of Slaanesh -> 75 gp, stealthy
* Chosen of Nurgle -> 60 gp
* Chosen Chaos Knight -> 60 gp
* Chaos Knight -> 30 gp
* Foo Chaos Warrior -> 12 gp
* Marauders -> 9 gp

That said, I think you could make the current army work just fine as all Tzeentch all-the-time. Ethereal heavy inf. are *insane*.

Fortress should be a Jewelled City in his horribly decadant capital, and then Citadels (probably the best all around fort in the game) everywhere else.

In the long run, I think Chaos should probably kill population like the evil LA powers?

Itsa is certainly good, but those huge mages have no slots. Compare to an archtheurg -
costs 380, has 7 total picks, maxes out at 4A3B2C1D.
vs
costs 650, has 10 total picks, maxes out at 3A3B2C2D2E2F

I think that's pretty fair. He's not capital only, he's not old, and is certainly somewhat better overall, but those lizardmen are a poor substitute for Legionaires, and the shaman cost more than communicants.

Stegadons cost 2.5x as much as an elephant. I think elephants are better.

I agree that Itsa is much better than Chaos in this setup.

[rdonj]

Wow, some of those changes do seem a bit over the top. Exhaustion on lords of khorne in particular is a killer. I have a few ideas for you though squirrel, I'll pm some of the effective expansion parties I've come up with.

As to itza, they don't get anything other than 1400 gold forts, so you do sort of have them beat there. On the other hand, their forts all have a decent admin value. Quite a bit less defense though. Having magic weapons on all their saurus (but not skinks) is a pretty major advantage. But I wouldn't say that you could build an army of unequipped saurus veteran thugs and win the game. They are a bit cheap for how good they are, but even playing NI, it's hard to give up a skink priest for a mere commander. And 1-2k gold for slann? I really hope you're joking, I should show you my turn file for tourmaline and let you see how often those 4th gen slann end up with anything resembling decent paths. Getting anything above level 2 costs a fortune. That said, I can appreciate your frustration. The old chaos seemed a little overpowered to me, but comparing them to some of your competition now, I can certainly see how you could question your chances.

As to what Itza doesn't do well - forge, use death magic, and kill immortal SCs :D. They also don't really make very good thugs, though perhaps they make decent anti-thugs.

[archaeolept]

I like the oldbloods - if their forts didn't cost 1400 a pop, they'd be a light thug option

[rdonj]

Oldbloods are nice, but aren't they cap only? :)

[archaeolept]

haha yes, but on those rare occasions you don't buy a 4th generation Slaan... :D

[Burnsaber]

OK, here is the final version of the Warhammer mod we are using. I tested for bugs and found some (apparently llamascript had some problems with Brettonnian summons), but managed to fix them. Many of the Chaos problems have been addressed. If the are any remaining balance problems, they are highly suggested to be addressed by diplomacy.

The game is up on the llamaserver. Let's try to get this thing stated by thursday.

[Trumanator]

You know, its a late date, and I'm not going to drop or anything, but this map seems absurdly small. It seems a pity that many nations won't have a chance to deploy all their cool summons and such, since it will all be over so fast.

[DrPraetorious]

Yeah, I'd go fast research on a map this size, but it's settled and done now. We'll see how aggressively people play.

[Burnsaber]

You know, its a late date, and I'm not going to drop or anything, but this map seems absurdly small. It seems a pity that many nations won't have a chance to deploy all their cool summons and such, since it will all be over so fast.

That's the general idea. We have a lot to test in these games. We'll se how the first one goes and mix it up based on the feedback for the next. As every modder knows, more games = better feedback. One more advantage of the speed is that if you get eliminated early, you won't have to wait for 6 months to get your next Warhammer fix.

Besides, Sombre refuses to play on anything that has even close to 15 provs per player. How could we play without him? He's such a lovable character afterall and his absence would just fill us all with bitter tears and decimate all joy out of our lives.

Yeah, I'd go fast research on a map this size, but it's settled and done now. We'll see how aggressively people play.

Yeah, I thought about the possibility of easy research, but decided to stick with as "vanilla" settings as possible for the first game. The HoF is large because heroes are awesome and thematic for the WH universe.

[Sombre]

To all people who want to play on big maps: Die in a fire.

Seriously though, I don't think this map is going to mean people can't use their summons etc. It will mean you can't use ALL of them and that you'll have to target research rather than eventually getting all of it. This makes sense to me.

Reply to squirrel re: Itza balance pending.

[Sombre]

And i just took a look at Itza - Morale 13 Prot 18 mega tramplers with archers on top *and* mages that are ridiculously cheap for what they do? Those mages should be 1k and 2k gold respectively, at the least, and the trampler should probably be near doubled in price since it has no real weaknesses. (What are the disadvantages of elephants? Oh yeah, morale and protection... no such problems here, which is just amazing - and Itza's stegasaurs have a mere 3 enc on top of that so you can't even count on fatiguing them out). Then their scouts are 1g(!) and have glamour(?!?) and stealth *+65*(!!!), and their Ld40 commanders are a mere *20g* 16r with a *magic weapon* (!!!) and good stats. What the hell is this? I bet they get cheap castles somewhere too. They could probably win just by spamming castles and building as many of theose 20g commanders as they can - they don't even need equipment (which they could certainly be provided). They also have cheap researchers, H3 priests, and all of their melee units have magic weapons (!!!). And they get to mass them for peanuts. What *doesn't* Itza do well? I feel like rdonj discovering his enemy has immortal death summons of stupidly awesome.

I guess I'll address all these points, but I think you're being a little bit hysterical. That said if Itza does prove to have overpowered elements they'll definitely get nerfed down. No-one likes a Hinnom after all.

Stegadons - These I admit have not been thoroughly tested, so the price could be off (too high or too low). I don't think the archer part of them is a big deal - it causes a few casualties, but only fires twice and is more of a flavour thing. They certainly got elephants beat in both morale and protection, but they share the similar problem of being expensive lowish mr animals that are stopped by roughly the same counters. They're cold blooded too, so they will fatigue out about as much as elephants in my experience. The main difference is that it's much harder to reach critical mass with stegadons than elephants because of the cost. And critical mass is a huge deal with tramplers - once you reach it prot and the like becomes a lot less relevant. We'll see how they perform I suppose.

Slann 4th and 5th gen - To an extent I guess a Slann player would still build these guys no matter what they cost, because otherwise they only have priests. While they are devastating combat mages in battlefield communions and they have a huge spread of paths, the actual depth of the paths is very shallow considering the cost. On paper they look great and if you go adding up the path totals, they seem like ubermages (they are by far the most expensive mages in the game though) but they're actually pretty hard to use and you have to make quite a few just to get the right paths. You then have to worry about upkeep and probably keep a bunch of them dormant (which does still cost you, for no benefit). They suck for research after all.

Scouts - That the scout costs 1g makes little difference. How many are going to get built? I think all national scouts should be 1g personally. Equally the fact the scouts aren't found and killed isn't massively important. It's just a scout. A good one, but consider the opportunity cost for Itza (most expensive forts of any nation, want to build huge amounts of skink priests).

Saurus Scar Veteran - Again, how many will be built? They could make decent mini thugs but the opportunity cost would be substantial and itza isn't very good at budget forging. All the saurus have magic weapons so I don't know why you're excited about that - it isn't like it's an enchanted sword with strong + to stats or anything. The 20g price reflects that national 40ldr commanders just don't get built because of the opportunity cost. If this proves to be too cheap and someone is owning with armies of these guys, I'll definitely look into it though. Unequipped saurus scar veterans would get their asses kicked by most stuff, so again I think you're being a bit silly suggesting you could win by spamming them with your 1400 gold forts.

Cheap Researchers - Yes, Itza has decent research. It's in the upper tier of vanilla. It isn't outstanding as far as I can see. I will adjust it if it's really too good.

H3 priests - These are also very expensive mages who have to do a lot of stuff to make up for their cost. If you are using them just as H3 priests they probably aren't worth it. Admittedly it is another string to their bow, but you pay for the variety and if you buy a jack of all trades and he only does one thing, you're losing out the whole time. It's another matter of opportunity costs. The strong religiosity of the nation is intended though and balanced by their extra expensive temples in my opinion. Temples you'll need to build, really, to get what you want from the forts. Along with labs, that is.

[Squirrelloid]

It might be the settings we're using, but with NI i'd love 1g scouts and 20g commanders. I do think its a big deal since there aren't independents available, and you're going to want to shuttle units around.

Also, glamour and can't be found stealth are substantial advantages that other nations don't have on their scouts. This is magnified with NI because scouts are harder to replace.

Critical mass of stegadons is like 2. 1 is often acceptable. (Tested)

People are downplaying magic weapons in this context, but they were such a big deal for TNN when the topic of their sacreds came up on the IRC channel... Make up your minds - are magic weapons good or just a minor advantage?

[Sombre]

Massing magic weapons for peanuts - I suppose. Saurus are supposed to be efficient units within reason. Magic weapons are a perk of the race, same concept as with Caelum. I don't think it's a huge deal though, as all these normal troops have the normal counters and after the normal troop phase, magic weapons/attacks are as standard for all races.

Itza good at everything! - They are a varied and flexible nation. They have both highly specialised and jack of all trades units. They also have a /lot/ of content, which leads to greater variety. But they have weaknesses like lack of path depth, reliance on extremely expensive units (Who are not SCs), the cold blooded trait, vulnerability to missiles, depleted pretender selection, poor forging,.... They are certainly strong and if you take their units in isolation they can look incredibly overpowered because they push some dom3 limits.

[Sombre]

It might be the settings we're using, but with NI i'd love 1g scouts and 20g commanders. I do think its a big deal since there aren't independents available, and you're going to want to shuttle units around.

Also, glamour and can't be found stealth are substantial advantages that other nations don't have on their scouts. This is magnified with NI because scouts are harder to replace.


Itza is supposed to have a very good scout. They are tiny perfectly camoflaged creatures specifically engineered and spawned for that purpose by the Old Ones, after all. So it's a national advantage. I just don't think it's a major balance concern. I plan to have scouts at 1gp in all my mods (as long as they aren't a thug or something) regardless of their ability. Ogre Kingdoms has its gnoblar trapper at 1gp. Skaven,.. not sure if I updated them recently enough.


Critical mass of stegadons is like 2. 1 is often acceptable. (Tested)


Critical mass to do what? Take an indy on 5? If they did so unsupported without casualties or afflictions that would make them good for expansion, but it isn't all there is to balance.

People are downplaying magic weapons in this context, but they were such a big deal for TNN when the topic of their sacreds came up on the IRC channel... Make up your minds - are magic weapons good or just a minor advantage?

I don't know who people are. I don't consider magic weapons on regular troops a massive deal. It's certainly very nice to have on PD though and it's another national advantage. I did consider it when balancing.

[archaeolept]

Squirrel, your lack of extensive gameplay experience is showing. The purpose of a beta test is to determine the approximate strengths of a nation in toto. Stegadons may be able to prevail against weak indies, but big deal. It is much harder to get a critical mass of tramplers with them for dealing against any serious threat; let alone their profound limitations against operating in any cold dominion. They are great meatshields, is all.

1 gp scouts for a nation w/ 1400 gp castles is a balance concern - for Itza

The slan themselves are extremely expensive, only have two slots, and have a very high encumbrance. They seem appropriately balanced to me, at first pass.

Magic weapons per se are not a very important attribute. I don't know who said what about TNN, but either you are mis-remembering what they said, or they don't know what they're talking about. All magic weapons for troops do is make them good counters to ethereality, which is not really a common type of troop. Caelum has magic weapons; rarely have I given a whit.

This is a playtest game. Just play for fun :)

[Calahan]

People are downplaying magic weapons in this context, but they were such a big deal for TNN when the topic of their sacreds came up on the IRC channel... Make up your minds - are magic weapons good or just a minor advantage?

I don't know who people are. I don't consider magic weapons on regular troops a massive deal. It's certainly very nice to have on PD though and it's another national advantage. I did consider it when balancing.
I guess I'm 'people' in this context :) I know given the choice between two identical units, I'd pay 10-15% extra for a magic weapon. Mainly because it cuts down on the tactics your opponents can use against you. Like everything though it's all situationally dependent. But I can recall games where I've thought "ah yes, that's a good tactic to use" and then upon closer checking of the enemy roster, I've had to say "arse, XYZ has magic weapons. So that idea's no good then".

I view less options for your enemy as meaning they are easier to predict, and therefore easier to defeat. Everyone has different tastes of course, but I would feel a lot safer neighbouring for example, an Elephant nation, if I knew I had magic weapons on hand.

Edit:

..... or they don't know what they're talking about.
The odds of that is somewhere between highly probable and an absolute certainty :D

[archaeolept]

heh :)

10% to the value of an infantry unit... that sounds about right. No more than that, though.

[DrPraetorious]

We need another four pretenders... any day now... :)

[Sombre]

Sorry about my not submitting a pretender yet - I am swamped with work. I came home at 6 today and worked another 4 hours unpaid just to try and make some headway on the stuff they're giving me.

We're launching a site tomorrow and I think everyone is under the heel.

Anyway, I'm sure this'll start this weekend.

[Burnsaber]

We are missing just two pretenders now. If they don't show their faces at the waiting hall by today evening, I'll contact the players with a PM.

[Burnsaber]

Sorry about my not submitting a pretender yet - I am swamped with work. I came home at 6 today and worked another 4 hours unpaid just to try and make some headway on the stuff they're giving me.

We're launching a site tomorrow and I think everyone is under the heel.

Anyway, I'm sure this'll start this weekend.

Allright, the only pretender missing is now the one for the Tomb Kings. But we aren't in a real rush, so just feel free to take the time you need. First work and then play. Weekend start sounds good.

Also, I have automatic start set off, just in case, so the game won't start immediately after all pretenders are in.

On other news, archaeolept agreed to admin the second WH game. He'll start it when he sees that the time is ripe.

[archaeolept]

oh yeah i'll probably throw up a thread next week, after this game get's going.

[Sombre]

Just to let people know I should have the pretender in tonight. Sorry for the delay.

[Burnsaber]

Game started! The first turn will host at 50 hours and the ones after that in 26h.

Here's my in-game action report, which will follow the adventures of my prophet, Gutbelcher. I'm too familiar with Ogre lore (I'm not sure if they're actually illeterate or not) so please forgive me any inconsisties.


Hello there fellow literate slave, you have been likely ordered to read these chronicles out loud for some smelly Ogrelings. Remember this: whatever you do, don't read the parts closed with "(" and ")", they are for my notes, which I had to scribe in order to stay sane. I can only hope that they will shed some light into how this world became one of gluttony and gore.

(My name Rulf Dambach and a long time ago, I was a engineering student in Nuln. That seems so long ago. Me and some of my university friends got caught by Ogre slavers, and my life hasn't been the same since. The Ogres are famous for their illiteracy and I've been acting as a mundane scribe slave for over 10 years now, reading and writing for them when it is necessary. It's pretty bad, but not as bad as what happened to my engineering friends, may Morr be merciful on their souls, for the Ogres showed none to their mortal bodies.)

(I have witnessed the rise of their awakening god, and I'm quite profoundly scared. He's the most frightening and powerful thing I have ever seen in my life, and do remember that I've been living with the Ogres for a decade. He, described and refered to simply "The One Who Crawled From the Pit", ordered me to write down the glorious deeds of his prophet so that following Ogre generations can have his deeds read for them (by other slaves, presumably) after the One Who Crawled From The Pit sits on the Throne of Thrones.)

(Gutbelcher, the Prophet of The One Who Crawled From The Pit, is one of the strongest Ogres of the realm and none can beat him in a eating contest. As for his name, it comes from his (very disturbing) habit of belching on his foes right after defeating them. These belches often contain unprocessed parts of his latest meal, or to be put on Ogre terms, "Guts". He's also developed the habit of doing this without any provocation on any passerbys, just for fun, I presume. (you won't believe the smell! The SMELL! It's simply profound!)).

(I've seen the might of the Ogres, and I despair, for I know who will win the Ascension Wars. I know what it mean for my race. Serve, either as an slave or an meal.)

(Just to clarify. just read the following to the ogres)

Gutbelcher strong and eats most! He devours all in the name of Pitcrawler amd grows even stronger! He will beat everything, with a fist to the face! (*sigh*, pause for laughter).

Ogres most strong! Eat well and fight a lot young ones and you will might be as strong as Gutbelcher one day!

[DrPraetorious]

All living things have their place and role in the Plan.

Those interested in understanding this role should engage their primitive written discourse with us. Those who are uninterested fulfill the Plan also in their way, and are not to be discounted but instead killed.

Courtesies and other primitive demonstrations of insincere good will to you all,
Knife Bright Insight

[Sombre]

(I'll post some in character RP stuff when the results for the first couple of turns are in - I will also be playing semi RP, though aiming to win of course - no prohetised scout for me)

[llamabeast]

Some Bretonnia things, and a bug:

1) Is it deliberate that the questing knight leader has leadership zero? It's really aggravating, being as he comes with troops and produces troops every turn. I always have to recruit a Bretonnian Lord just to tag along with him and bring his troops.

2) I'd like to request a minor sprite change to the questing knight commanders, so I can recognise them from their troops on the battlefield.

3) I don't understand why Virtue of the Quest is both harder to cast and to research than Errantry war. I mean basically, it's just Errantry War + free cloud trapeze, right? I can see maybe it is worth a little research to get the option of that convenience (though it is rather niche), but if I ever manage to get an S3 damsel the chances of me using her for that are almost zero. Short version: I suggest it should be S2. Or even S1.

Now the bug:

2) Errantry War and Virtue of the Quest produce Skaven. :( I suggest we leave the mod for a while though, to give time for other things to crop up. They're not low level spells.

[Burnsaber]

Errantry War and Virtue of the Quest produce Skaven. :( I suggest we leave the mod for a while though, to give time for other things to crop up. They're not low level spells.

I guess you have the old version of the mod. Try one from this link:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=711472&postcount=53

I changed the "Message of the Day" to reflect this situation.

[llamabeast]

Okay I'll look into that.

I wonder if Squirreloid knows we've started?

[Sombre]

Long had the Grand High Priest Tet Nukh Baset slumbered in his gilded tomb. Too long. Tet Nukh Baset awoke to find his glorious kingdom as dead as he, the priests in torpor, the great lineage of kings sealed in their tombs. This was not paradise. This was not even Nehekhara. This was a wilderness, the like of which Tet Nukh Baset knew only from the tales of Nehekhara's birth and the rise of the first dynasty. As galling as the circumstances of his awakening were, they were also somehow appropriate. He was reborn and his people would be too, in a perfect new form, to rise once more and show the world the glory of Nehekhara.

No paradise, mused Tet Nukh Baset, crushing the last of yet another group of mewling savages beneath his sleek gilded form. But an opportunity. The kings would be awoken in due course, but first his loyal servants. His right hand priest Muntuhotep had risen from his torpor already, and each month more priests awoke to curse the world and praise Baset.

As crude, jagged axes bounced from his carapace, Baset sensed something dark whirling at the edge of his mind. He ignored it. These last savages were odd, covered in tattoos that were strange yet at the same moment familiar. No matter. He crushed a handful of them and they fled, gibbering in their foul tongue. They would not threaten Nehekhara.

[Squirrelloid]

A man with the same strange tattoos as the fleeing savages, but cloaked in a long robe, stands atop a hilltop watching the advance of the gilded scorpion horror. At last he speaks, and the wind itself carries his words to the creature's ears.

"Terrible one, your might is without question, and you are great and powerful. But know that we may be of use to you in the coming war. We stand betwixt you and two nations who might resist your power, and should you restore our land to us and leave to us those lands bordering our keep, we pledge not to come in warfare against you, a shield to complement your fine golden sword, for a period of at least one year. Take what council you need, and when you have an answer for us, speak it to the wind and it will find its way to our ear."

[Trumanator]

And the Lord cameth upon the Bretons in his lands, terrorizing his people. And he smote them with his fury, and their eyes were filled with terror and their blows were weak, for He had the protection of heaven.

[Burnsaber]

Another chapter, following the life of Rolf the Engineer student/scribe slave under Ogre rule.

It seems that many people have been inspired to post in-character. I like this.



(I've decided to use this book as my journal too, since extra paper is hard to come by and the Ogres are too stupid to check if I'm writing the chronicles all the time. Summer has turned to fall and the Ogres keep on marching, I don't know if any mortal force is able to resist them. Gutbelcher just keeps on growing and growing, eating whenever he isn't either sleeping or fighting. He's also taken the habit of taking great amounts of enjoyment from tormenting me.)

(Whenever he isn't insisting on me taking down the exact measurements of his next meal, he's.. spitting on me. It started by accident when he justspilled (believe me, this is the correct verb) while devouring an ox. Seeing my great disgust made him, and all other ogres present laugh. Getting a smelly and slimy ball of ogre spit on my face was one of the worst experiences in my life and now it's a sort of running gag, that just won't stop. What in the name of Sigmar have I done to deserve this!)

(Gutbelcher is the worst, not only does he have the worst saliva, he has taken the habit of practicing, since I've managed to dodge some spits from him. Now, over the months, he has developed a simply miraculuos aim. He once got me all over the dining hall! I don't why he went to such extreme lenghts to develop his aim, it's not like Ogres use weapons that need aiming beyond pointing at the right direction.)

(Well, as long as I'm writing, I might as well write some Chronicle stuff too)

I recently followed Gutbelcher to battle, to take down his deeds on the field. This small province was guarded by a handful of archers and heavy spearmen. Ogres were suprised to find the opposing force lead by a Conjurer, a mage of dark arts. We had some mercenary crossbowmen on our side, who kept the spearmen on check. The opposing archers wasted their fire on a single ogre who was placed to the front as a bait, for Gutbelcher himself took a suprisingly cunning route over the edges of the battlefield.

Gutbelcher advanced over the field, squashing the skeletons animated by the mage with ease and felled a force commander of the opposing forces with a single blow. He then proceeded to grap his hand for snack. But the conjurer casted a spell, causing great cuts to appear on Gutbelcher, spilling his blood in great streams all over the ground. But he ignored the blood loss and devoured the mage, right there, on the field, with robes and everything!

He seemed suprisingly unfaded by the great loss blood, being more concerned for his left eye, which the spell had cutted open. Unfortunately the eye was unsalvageable. (Thank Sigmar! We'll see him aim with only one eye!). In anger, Gutbelcer *belched* a piece of the conjurers robe and place it over his eye as an improvised eyepatch. Then he swore to personally devour any mage who dared to try to affect him with a spell after this.

[Squirrelloid]

So the gilded beast shall leave us no respite. Very well, face us in honorable combat, your scorpion vs. what few forces we have left, and leave your army aside for the moment. Should you defeat us, not only will the gates of our fortress be left wide for you (effectively, as there will be no one to man the walls), but we will also give unto you what wealth we possess in gems and gold before we are vanquished. Should you lose, well, your army is still right there and we doubt we could defeat it after suffering whatever grevious losses your golden scorpion inflicts on us. Bring your army this turn and we will take our riches with us to our graves.

Will you meet the champions of the north winds under these terms?

(aside to Brettonia - was that all PD in our battle this past turn? Geez...)

[Sombre]

(sorry for the brevity of this response, I am very pressed for time - I have time to take the turn, but not to post a RP response. I'll let my actions do the talking)

[llamabeast]

Bugger, I sent in the wrong turn yesterday. How annoying.

[Trumanator]

Could I have a small extension, like 6 hrs? The llamaserver keeps sending my turns back saying there's a problem with the 2h file, and I don't have time to deal with it atm.

[Burnsaber]

Could I have a small extension, like 6 hrs? The llamaserver keeps sending my turns back saying there's a problem with the 2h file, and I don't have time to deal with it atm.

Extension granted and showing on the game page. I decided to go for a full 24h extension, just in case there is something a bit more serious behind this error than just a temporary bug.

[Sombre]

Word flooded back to Baset from the corners of the newly carved Nehekhara that the natives were being brought under control. The strange tattoo covered marauders in the northeast had presented little more resistance than the smaller barbarian tribes, though their clear alignment with ruinous powers had given him some pause for thought. The last of them had fled to the east to be crushed by a struggling feudal kingdom. Scouts reported they had an appropriate sense of honour, but their ways were primitive and they constrained themselves from achieving true glory with their petty beliefs and reliance on heavy armour. He would send his agents to investigate further - if necessary they could be removed.

To the West though, scouts reported a greater puzzle. A race of cold blooded lizards seemingly working in tandem with honourless mercenaries. Baset recognised the influence of some ancient power upon them, but their apparent concord with brigands was unsettling. Any movement closer to the lands civilised by Nehekhara would require a punitive response.

Of the lands to the north, the scouts had spoken little. Lumbering hulks wandering in yet more barbaric and primitive tribes and the scent of disease and corruption was carried on the wind.

All cause for reflection. The ancient texts will be consulted, the most powerful of the Tomb Kings awoken from their slumber. Nehekhara would know soon enough.

[Burnsaber]

Just a minor announcement, apparently I screwed up while making the map and there is one province (88) that has indy recruits as a result. Just letting everyone that this is a bug and recruiting those indies would constitute as "abusing an bug".

Just thought to let everyone know in order to avoid any possible drama (since there's been some going around recently).

[Sombre]

Apologies for the stale. It was a pretty bad turn to stale, but could have been worse.

I sent my trn file by accident and didn't wait to get the 'i have your turn' email back. So yeah, dumb mistake.

[DrPraetorious]

Wait... why was it a bad turn to stale?!?!

[DrPraetorious]

The Plan requires gems oriented towards the earth wind, in order to move forward.

The Plan allows for flexibility with regards to other types of gems, except for the onyx gems of the death wind, which are unavailable.

The servants of the Plan await communications on this topic with great earnestness and attention.

[Sombre]

I can't take a turn tonight (because of the llamaserver issues) and I can't take a turn tomorrow (I am busy all day and evening).

So roughly 46 hours from now, I'll be able to take a turn.

I suggest once llamaserver stops going nuts we put a really long timer on the game until people are back into the swing of it, then we go back to 26 hour.

[Burnsaber]

Sounds good. I'll keep an eye on the game page.

[Sombre]

Urgh, I need another extension. Really sorry about this guys - I've been holding people up a fair bit.

Anyway the turn is just hosting as we speak but I'm too tired to take it and I won't be home again with internet and dom3 access until around 40 hours from now. If I could therefore get an extension to around 48 hours that would be great.

[Burnsaber]

Extension granted.

[Trumanator]

For Pete's sake llama, get it over with already! :P I'm waiting till I'm dead before I post my ruminations on Skaven and Brettonia. Right now all I do is open the turn, look at the events, check my scout, check my research, then send in the 2h file without doing _anything_.

[DrPraetorious]

We fear the Plan has run into something of a snag.

The Plan is a thing of life, made of life, for the sustenance of life. These risen ones, being not of life but of death, were not fully anticipated.

Should the home-fortress of the large, ignorant warmbloods fall into their hands, along with the fortress of those foolish warmbloods who gave themselves over to the Enemy, already in the possession of the risen (?), this will have dire consequences according to original prophecies.

Therefore, we call on those warmbloods who have the wisdom to respect life, to join with us in repulsing these risen dead.

[DrPraetorious]

Oops, I just staled. Any chance we can extend the server timer to 36 hrs, and the timer-notice to 12h? I think our turns are about to get very complicated.

[Burnsaber]

Game switched to 36h hosting.

[Trumanator]

Bleh, now that Nehekara has chosen Brettonia as its next target, I'm never going to die. Yay for sitting in a non-cap fort beating back all comers?

[llamabeast]

I won't be able to get my turn in on time tonight. Any chance I could have a 3 hour extension? Thanks!

[Burnsaber]

Granted 5h extension.

[DrPraetorious]

So - who has how many capitals?

Put another way, I'm sure Nehekara has at least Chaos and his own - does Nehekara have a third? How close is he to winning?

[llamabeast]

I have Skavenblight and Nehekhara is not getting it off me! In fact he has now given up sieging and wandered off. The fortress is essentially impregnable.

[Sombre]

I'm not going to be able to take my next turn until about 45 hours from now, so it would be great if I could get an extension to that effect.

Sorry about that guys :[

[llamabeast]

Seems you are a busy man at present Sombre!

No problem at all for me.

[DrPraetorious]

I'm also fine with a long extension. Someone PM Burnsaber?

[Burnsaber]

Granted 50h extension. I also shared the admin password with all the remaining players (see your PM inbox for details).

A bit unorthodox, I admit. But I just trust you guys :D.

[Trumanator]

I am going to be busy with ROTC essentially all this weekend, with absolutely no internet access. If I could have a delay till Monday that would be great.

[Sombre]

I quite like the long extensions - I've been so busy recently I've had to rush a lot of turns even when I had ages to take them in. I'll try and free up more time though. Things have calmed down at work a bit at least. I'm liking this long layoff currently though :]

[Trumanator]

Okay, I've been hanging around for quite some time hoping to give a final, epic last stand. Since that hasn't really materialized, I plan to set AI for the next turn unless someone is going to actually storm my last fort in the near future.

[DrPraetorious]

I quite like the long extensions - I've been so busy recently I've had to rush a lot of turns even when I had ages to take them in. I'll try and free up more time though. Things have calmed down at work a bit at least. I'm liking this long layoff currently though :]

Well, then you'll love this one. I'm extending the next turn until Wednesday (that's 120hrs or so I think,) because I'm defending my thesis on Monday. Tuesday I will be drunk.

If all goes well, Dr. DrPraetorious will have time to do this game justice then :).

[llamabeast]

PhD thesis?

Good luck!!!

[llamabeast]

Trumanator - Regrettably I have no plans to storm your fort any time soon. You've demonstrated you can kill an arbitrary number of my men at arms. :(

[DrPraetorious]

Does anyone object to a rollback?

[Sombre]

I'm a bit confused. I looked at the llamaserver a couple days ago and it said the turn would host on monday 30th nov. But it hosted last night and I staled of course.

I don't mind a rollback I guess, I don't really mind either way though, this game isn't hotly contested or anything.

[llamabeast]

I'm easy. I'm pretty much out of the game to be honest.

[DrPraetorious]

Yeah, I thought I had pushed hosting back to Monday. So I'll do a rollback.

Or - does anyone object if I declare myself victor? I think I ought perhaps to actually *win a battle* against Sombre first :), but it's pretty clear that I'm winning the war, yes/no?

[Sombre]

Yeah I wouldn't mind if you did that - I can't see any way that I could beat you long term. You have a much better economy, globals etc and you have a better lategame nation too, really. The entire war is taking place in my territory also.

[DrPraetorious]

So my army of poison golems will never reach the front :(.

Very well, unless I hear an objection, I declare myself winner! Huzzah!

I'll have some balance feedback on my own nation shortly.

[Trumanator]

Well, seeing as how this seems to be over, I'll post my thoughts on Skaven and Brettonia now.

Skaven: First, I like the feel and theme a lot. This is a beautiful mod. Also, I managed to accomplish my main goal for the game: not be the first to die. :D That said though, the early game is just incredibly weak. Your troops are just not good enough to carry you, particularly on a NI map where you can't hire any arrow catcher indies. Anyone with arrows is going to rape you utterly. Yes, I know that Skavenslaves and/or plague monks can be decoys, but once engagements reach a certain size, they just die too fast to be effective. Even when you make it to the enemy lines, you take a ridiculous amount of casualties. Your armies are nowhere near sustainable. While your mages aren't bad, the lack of decent blockers hurts. Your summons are okay, but the warp_ throwers seem to be bugged, as they had a tendency to run straight into melee without shooting. Of course, its entirely possible that a better player would be able to come up with a killer strategy. Still, I think that the very weak early game severely restricts your options.

Brettonia: While of course llamabeast will have the best overall view of things, I will still make a few observations. First, freespawn archers are perhaps a bit much, particularly against Skaven. Second, having what amounts to an income and resource independent recruitment is a difficult thing to balance. It might have been interesting to see how they might have done had llama been able to recruit damsels in his cap every turn for a respectable research.

[Burnsaber]

Ok, so game is over, I presume?

How did you guys like the settings of the game, like the map or the victory conditions?

I'm just wondering on what changes should I make when I create the sequel game (likely replacing the problematic Chaos mod with Dwarfs). Pre-placed starts are also in my mind for the next game.

Trumator, I replied to your nation feedback in the Bretonnia thread.

[DrPraetorious]

A few balance issues for Itza, mostly fairly minor. Overall I think it's good.

The various sacred summons should arrive in smaller numbers but wear some kind of armour (so they can get an earth blessing). I'd suggest giving them all low-Prot ceremonial armour, making them 2/3 as numerous, except for the flying ones (Tepok) which should be 1/2 as numerous. The Lorescale is way better than all of the other spawn leaders that I summoned (there were a few I didn't try), since he flies *and* has a ridiculous MR, which is better than being Mindless in almost every way.

I didn't really test any of the blood stuff.

The recruitable sacreds should probably be capital-only, although most games this won't make a huge difference since your forts and temples are SO EXPENSIVE.

I happened to crush all comers this game but that was more a mix of craven diplomacy and map placement than that Itza is overpowered.

[Burnsaber]

The recruitable sacreds should probably be capital-only



I agree with this point. Not really from a balance standpoint, more like aesthetical point. Since Itza really has no need for awake/rainbow pretender you will go bless 100% of the time (nothing wrong with that, Mictlan works like that too). However, what bugs me is that Temple Guards are way way better than anything else you can recruit. There are all these cool units (like Kroxidors) you will never use because TG are just a plain better choice (both in terms of upkeep and overall combat effectiveness).

If TG would be cap-only, I *might* have seen some other units than some chameleon skinks and hordes of temple guards when fighting Dr.P.

[rdonj]

Yeah, in my game I used red-crested skinks, kroxigors and stegadons when I was fighting the skavens, and saurus warriors (for the magic weapons and higher strength) and archers/blowgunners to supplement my armies when I was fighting stygia. I actually used almost no temple guard to kill the skavens, and just used them defensively/to grab indies. If I had build everywhere temple guard though, I would have been hard-pressed to come up with a really good reason to use much else. They are just that good.

What was your bless, by the way? And did you ever get to summoning any of the spawn of xhotl?

[Sombre]

He definitely had some Xhotl, because I remember killing a bunch of them. I wasn't really using the kind of stuff they're good against - I think they died more to rigor mortis than anything else. I also had flaming arrows up, which as you know they don't like too much.

I think the temple guard and sacred spawnings have indeed taken over too much for Lizardmen, so I'll be scaling (haw haw) them back. I am still reluctant to make them cap only, but it does seem like it would be very effective in changing the way itza plays. I may even make the 5th gen Slann cap only as well - I don't think this would actually make a massive difference (since they're so expensive) and would work fine thematically with temple guard being cap only.

[Squirrelloid]

I would like to reiterate how brutally unfair the nekehara scorpion pretender thing is. Enc. 0 size 6 trampler available from turn 1 is just brutal, and there is nothing in the game that can kill it that early.

[Sombre]

Your own size 6 pretender with a forged weapon and shield?

[rdonj]

He definitely had some Xhotl, because I remember killing a bunch of them. I wasn't really using the kind of stuff they're good against - I think they died more to rigor mortis than anything else. I also had flaming arrows up, which as you know they don't like too much.

I think the temple guard and sacred spawnings have indeed taken over too much for Lizardmen, so I'll be scaling (haw haw) them back. I am still reluctant to make them cap only, but it does seem like it would be very effective in changing the way itza plays. I may even make the 5th gen Slann cap only as well - I don't think this would actually make a massive difference (since they're so expensive) and would work fine thematically with temple guard being cap only.

Yeah, nehekhara is not really the ideal person to use xhotl on, as fire is pretty much all they do. Rigor mortis is certainly not really their forte either.

I still like the dormant slann auto/domsummon of them better, but making them cap only is certainly the easiest fix balance-wise. Making 5th gen slann cap only would make them almost completely not worth recruiting, but it probably wouldn't make too much difference overall, no. And I agree that it is thematically sensible.

[Sombre]

Well I'd probably increase the cost difference between 5th and 4th gen slann to make up for it.