Land Rand - Jotunheim Wins!

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

This is the thread for a new RAND game, where all nations will be land nations. I hereby dub the game “LAND RAND”. This is a PBEM game that I will host. (It is not a Llamaserver game, although the L.S. is very cool.)

RAND means:

1. Randomly assigned nations

2. Anonymous (players do not know who is playing what nation and must keep their identity secret until their candles have been snuffed)

3. No Diplomacy (no communications between players of the substance of the game; no trading of gems, gold or items; no in game or out of game messages, etc.)


The settings:

Era: Middle
Mods: Conceptual Balance 1.6
Number of players: 18
Map: GreeceStain
Victory Condition: Victory points in each capital. Need 9 out of 18 to win.
Research: Standard
Indies: 7
Magic sites/Gold/Resources: Standard
Graphs: On
Renaming: Off

Players so far:

Aethyr = Agartha (Dead turn 20)
Atul = Pan
Calahan = Ulm (Dead turn 30)
Jurri = Bandar Log
Lingchih = Arco (gone AI turn 60)
Lolomo = Eriu
Meglobob = C'tis
Micah = Jotunheim
MscFish; Replaced by BandC = Caelum
Namad; Replaced by Folket = Man (Dead turn 32)
Omnirizon = Pythium (Gone AI turn 39)
Quantum Mechani; Replaced by Alpine Joe Turn 41 = Tien Chi
Squirrelloid = Ermor
Trumanator = Vanheim (Gone AI turn 41)
Wokeye = Shinuyama (Gone AI turn 31)
Wraithlord = Machaka (Dead turn 63)
Ygorl = Ashdod (Dead turn 59)
Zeldor = Mictlan

Thanks to all players!

Pasha

[Trumanator]

Ummm, I don't know if I'd be considered experienced enough, but I'd love to join.

[PashaDawg]

Welcome, Trumanator.

Prepare thyself for RANDomization! (Please send me your email.)

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

The player list is set.

The nation assignments have been sent out. Be sure to keep your nation ID a secret until (and if) your candles are fully snuffed.

Please include "LAND RAND" in the subject line of all emails to me about the game so that I can use a filter to sort them easily.

Thank you.

Pasha

[mscfish]

Wonderful!

Thank you for your organization & hard work,Pasha.

:)

[Zeldor]

I didn't know I volunteered, but well, I can't skip Pasha's games :)

[Zeldor]

BTW, Ashdod is of course banned?

[PashaDawg]

Only water nations are banned.

[PashaDawg]

The map making is going well. Some players requested that the map be fairly snug (no more than 10 provinces per player). The map will have 199 provinces with 18 preset randomly-assigned, land-based starting positions. There are about 18 water provinces. So, there will be approximately 10 land provinces per player. (The map is drawn. I just need to do the neighbor assignments, etc.)

I think a few players are still traveling. So, it is more likely that we will start on October 2 or 3 instead of October 1.

Feel free to send in your pretenders any time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[Ygorl]

I'm guessing that, as in ages past, we should give our pretender the name of our nation?

[Squirrelloid]

I already submitted my pretender... and I don't even know what I named him... Pasha, i may need to resend if there are specific naming rules for pretenders, but i think i may have let random choose for me.

[mscfish]

I didn't know I volunteered, but well, I can't skip Pasha's games :)

It is very intersting to see a Polish of saying

谋事在人，成事在天。

:)

[Zeldor]

Pasha:

Would it be possible to see the map before making a pretender?

[Wokeye]

Pretender OTW. Cheers for organising the game, Pasha!

[Zeldor]

mscfish:

It's a really good proverb :)

[PashaDawg]

The map is essentially done. I am just going to review a few things on Thursday and will post it on Thursday night.

Pretender names should just be very blah so as not to give any hint of your identity. The best practice is to use either the name of your nation or a name generated by the game itself.

I hope to start he game on Friday, October 2, assuming all players are back from their travels.

We still need to choose a victory condition based on the control of a # of capital provinces. Each capital will be worth one point and there will be 18. How many to win? 7 or 8?

Any other setting concerns?

Pasha

[Wokeye]

I'll be happy with whatever...

[Calahan]

Hi everyone.

First off can I say a big 'Thank You' to Pasha for arranging another one of his always highly anticipated RAND games.

Secondly, I might be able to pull-off an October 3rd start, but at this stage I'd guess that would only give me about an hour or two at most to design a Pretender on Saturday. So can I humbly beg that we have a Sunday 4th October start, as that should allow me to come up with something on Sunday (since I should have that day pretty free with any luck). And I have been away from Dominions with my job until roughly two hours ago.

Thirdly, I'll add a +1 to Zeldor's question about whether or not the map will be made available before the Pretender's are due in.

Fourthly, is a list of the other nations in the game being published before Pretender's are due in? (as the answers to the latter two questions could certainly have some affect on Pretender design for many nations)


And I'm guessing Pasha that as in your previous games, turns will be 24 hours until turn 15, and then 3 turns a week until we start asking for 2 turns a week (or 72 hours)

[Zeldor]

Pasha already told that starting positions will be random, but with fixed starting locations. So we have not much profit from checking the map before designing pretender.

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

I have finished the map (GreeceStain) and emailed the files to all players as a zip.

I would rather keep the nation list secret to keep up the suspense. However, there are 18 land-only nations, and no nation in particular is banned. So, most land nations will be included.

While I would like to get the game moving, I am happy to grant Calahan's request to postpone the starting date until Sunday, October 4, 2009. That will give players plenty of time to tweak their pretender designs. Players are welcome to send me revisions until we start.

Thanks.

Pasha

[Trumanator]

Is province 2 supposed to be water?

[PashaDawg]

Ugh!

Thanks for catching that. How did I miss that? Maybe I did something by accident after my province checking.

I will send out another .map file.

[mscfish]

Hi:
I haven't received any map file.So don't forget me.
:)

[PashaDawg]

Hi MscFish:

Keep me posted if it does not show up in your inbox. Also, I will post it on the forum this weekend. I just want to double check the neighbor connections, etc., once more before doing that.

Pasha

[Zeldor]

Can't you disable water nations in map file? Dunno if game won't decide to try one in SP with random nations.

[WraithLord]

Hey Guys, we are about to embark on a new magical cruise with captain Pasha. Hurray :) hold tight and enjoy the ride :D

Careful not to be thrown overboard all too soon ;)

[Zeldor]

Pasha:

Shouldn't 79 and 41 starting locations have 3 provs between them, like other ones do?

[PashaDawg]

Thank you for catching that map issue, Zeldor! All capitals are intended to be at least 3 provinces apart. I will extend the mountain barrier and fix the neighbor connection.

Regarding you other question, when I do a test game, I don't do random land nations. I just set 18 players and manually select the land nations in a random fashion. Obviously, for the actual LAND RAND game, I will chose the nations that have actually been assigned to players.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Just waiting on QM's Pretender. It is very odd that he has not submitted his pretender yet. Micah was not receiving my emails, and so, perhaps, QM is not getting them either. (Micah is receiving them now.) I have sent QM a private message via the Forum.

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 1 is out.

Deadline is Wednesday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[Wokeye]

...and we're off! :) GL, all.

[WraithLord]

Good luck everyone.

[Omnirizon]

...cause you're all going to need it :evil:

[mscfish]

Very sorry to to everyone.
There is something wrong with my computer.And i request a 24H extention.
Mscfish

[PashaDawg]

I think it is important to give players some extra time when technology gets in the way. Hopefully, MscFish will be able to get the turn out by the end of today.

[Omnirizon]

no worries.

[mscfish]

Very sorry to everyone for my delay.
I have solved the probelm with my computer,and thanks to everyone for the first turn's extention.I
'm really very sorry aboout this.

[WraithLord]

Don't sweat it mscfish. We're a patient folks here.
Or are we now???
Well yes we are!
maybe? ;)

Glad to hear you have your machine fixed :)

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 2 is out.

Deadline is Saturday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 3 is out.

Deadline is Sunday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 4 is out.

Deadline is Monday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 5 is out.

Deadline is Tuesday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 6 is out.

Deadline is Wednesday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[Wokeye]

Sorry all - thought I had sent turn 6... it's in now anyways.

Just a heads up on some 'away from the computer' time for me coming up:
1) I'm headed away for a night over this weekend - I probably can get to a Dom3-worthy computer but I may need a 12-24hr extension for turn 8.
2) next week (mon-friday Aust timezone) - Fieldwork for my job means I'll be in the middle of a swamp (literally :bug:) for four days - want me to try for a sub?

[PashaDawg]

Hi Wokeye:

If you could find a sub for when you're in the swamp, that would be very, very helpful. With 18 players, we need to limit the delays as much as possible. Thanks!

Turn 7 is out.

Deadline is Friday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 8 is out.

Deadline is Saturday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[Wokeye]

Looks like I have a sub, will advise Pasha accordingly and prepare swamp-going equipment.

[PashaDawg]

Excellent.

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 9 is out.

Deadline is Monday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hadrian II will be filling in for Wokeye while he is in the swamp. Thank you, Hadrian II, for filling in.

Pasha

[namad]

this thread sure is boring due to the whole rand-i-ness :(

[Trumanator]

Are you joking, randiness is never boring, its all over the place on a college campus :D Randy women everywhere!

[Lingchih]

I will be out of town and away from internet access from Oct 23 - 25 for a funeral. Could we make it a long weekend pause for this game please?

Thanks

[PashaDawg]

Yes, of course.

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 10 is out.

Deadline is Wednesday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[Meglobob]

With Pasha out of town, what email do we send ours turns to now?

[djo]

I suspect Pasha will distribute my email with the next turn, but if you ever need it, you can PM me on the forums. If you've been in a game with me recently, my email hasn't changed.

I look forward to abusing every last scrap of authority Pasha cedes to me while he's away.

[WraithLord]

djo, should we be sending turn 11 .2h files to you?

BTW, I just clicked your name in my gmail's "to" field and it automatically populated it with an email address. Presumably yours, presumably gmail remember such things, hope gmail got it right :)

[namad]

do pasha games have any sort of numerical score graph system like llamaserver does?

[Lingchih]

I suspect Pasha will distribute my email with the next turn, but if you ever need it, you can PM me on the forums. If you've been in a game with me recently, my email hasn't changed.

I look forward to abusing every last scrap of authority Pasha cedes to me while he's away.

Djo, don't know if you noticed, but I'll be out of town over the weekend without internet access. I can do tonite's turn, but that will be it until Monday.

Thanks

[djo]

Wraith: I just emailed Pasha to see who's doing the Friday turn. I did get your turn and forwarded it back to Pasha just in case.

namad: not sure exactly what you mean, but I doubt it; we do everything by hand.

Lingchih: yes, I saw the earlier post on the forum. It would be great if you could post, PM, or email me when you return so I know we're clear to resume.

[Lingchih]

Will do djo. I'll be back Monday mid-day, should do my turn right away, then I'll let you know.

[PashaDawg]

I don't leave until Saturday.

I have sent everyone an email with the details, etc. I'd like to host Friday's turn, and then let djo take over from there.

Thank you again, djo.

Pasha

[djo]

Turn 12 has hosted! Anyone not seeing the turn, let me know (and check your spam folders if you've never gotten mail from me before).

Next turn is due Monday, to accommodate Lingchih. Assuming we're doing Pasha's usual schedule, that will put us on track for turn 15 on Thursday, then 16 on Sunday (having moved to 3/week).

[Wokeye]

Hi all - back now.

A big thanks to Hadrian_II for subbing for me while I was away.

[namad]

wouldn't every 2days be monday wednesday friday?

[djo]

Traditionally Pasha does Tues/Thurs/Sunday for 3/week (once turn 15 is reached).

[Zeldor]

Oh, do we need to slow down already? I'd be happy with 24h hosting till turn 20. Maybe we can stick to that unless someone objects?

[djo]

OK, missing one player's turn, but not the one I thought. We're delayed another day.

[djo]

Turn 13 is out. Orders for the next one are due Wednesday.

[djo]

I'm missing two turns. I'll host tomorrow evening if they come in.

[namad]

did you email the people who didn't get their turns in?

I did my turn, and i think i sent it to you... but it's possible i never actually included the attachment or never even sent it...


if I did send the file for my turn perhaps whoever didn't send it simply thought they did and as such needs it pointed out they didn't?

[Wokeye]

I did my turn, and i think i sent it to you... but it's possible i never actually included the attachment or never even sent it...
Yeah, I did this a few turns back. :o

[djo]

I'm not into nag emails.

I should have listed who I'm missing, though: I do not have turns from Ulm and Bandar Log.

[djo]

Turn 14 is out. The next one is due Friday. Send your turns to me for this turn, even if the schedule slips (easier that way). The next turn after you can send to Pasha.

[djo]

I am missing turns from Zeldor and Wraithlord. Send them to me for this turn. Pasha will do the next one.

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

I am back. My email indicates that Wraithlord might need a brief extension through the weekend due to business travel. I received his turn 14, however. I will forward it to djo, in case that is the turn he's looking for.

Thank you, djo, for hosting.

Pasha

[LoloMo]

Thanks djo! And welcome back Pasha!

[WraithLord]

I am missing turns from Zeldor and Wraithlord. Send them to me for this turn. Pasha will do the next one.

Are you referring to # 14?- I've sent it to both you and Pasha. Also, I just resent it now. Please tell me whether it has arrived.

And thanks for stepping in for Pasha!

[djo]

I've got WraithLord's turn. I think there was one other I'm missing...I'll host later this morning if possible.

[Meglobob]

Thanks for hosting djo.

Welcome back Pasha.

Grand Canyon biggest hole in the ground I have ever seen, I did it the easy way via plane.

[Zeldor]

I lost Internet yesterday and wasn't able to get on my computer in the morning, so just now - I will send the turn soon, sorry for the delay.

[djo]

Turn 15 is out. I propose the next one be due Sunday and then Tuesday/Thursday/Sunday thereafter, but Pasha will make the final decision.

Send all turns to Pasha!

[Omnirizon]

What is the status of our Caelum player and current plans on rollback? I don't want to pour over the final details of my turn if it turns out we are rolling back, thus I havn't sent anything in.

What's going on?

[namad]

just as a note to anyone who ever plays dominions 3 pbem...


NEVER SET YOUR NATION TO AI.

you can just stale, the game admin can decide to set you AI but there is no harm in staling and then going ai ... if you go ai right away there is no way to undo an ai-ing

[PashaDawg]

We're doing a rollback, based in part because a majority of players were in favor of it. See email sent to players. I expect to host the new turn tonight.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 14 is out. (With the rollback. I think I got it right.)

Deadline is Wednesday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

I have received some comments that I am being too flexible about late turns. I used to be pretty strict and staled late players unless a player requested an extension. However, more recently, it has been my understanding that players wanted me to be more flexible and stale players only in extreme cases.

It does not matter either way to me. What do players want?

More often that not, players will occasionally miss a deadline because of technical issues. The email got lost or he thought he sent in the turn but did not (and correct the problem promptly). However, some players are routinely late, which can spoil the fun.

Feel free to comment on the forum but be careful not to give clues of your national ID.

Thanks.

Pasha

[Wokeye]

I dont mind waiting a day or two every now & then for a late uncommunicative player, and give further allowance for those communicative players who make prior arrangements with Pasha for delays. Sh!t happens, can't see the need to rush.

...plus I've been a cause of delay in the past due to untimely technical and/or PEBKAC issues, so not trying to be hypocritical here either.

PEBKAC = Problem exists between keyboard and chair, BTW. :)

[WraithLord]

I don't think you should go to llamasever extreme. Not at all. The flexibility that you're offering is good. I also don't mind waiting every now and again. I would probably recommend though that you be less accommodating in case one player repeatedly forgets to send his turns on times w/o asking for extension. I'd even suggest that you state that policy so that it would be clear to all players.

[Meglobob]

I prefer flexible turns and don't mind waiting.

[Zeldor]

Well, I am ok with flexible schedule, but it may be necessary to stale someone, or some people may get too relaxed and just slow the game too much.

[Micah]

I'll admit the delays have gotten a bit excessive/annoying (I actually joined Warcry because the hosting on both rand games has gotten so slow), but I'd still prefer a well-run game over a fast one.

[Squirrelloid]

I'd be ok with you (pasha) using a little discretion. The better off a nation is, the more significant it staling would be. There are some nations right now that it probably wouldn't matter if they staled or not.

[atul]

I'm afraid I've been a staling player in several of Pasha's previous games. Not in the current one but who knows what the future holds. *knocks wood* Given that, I think staling the uncommunicative player is all fair and good, but of course some host discretion is alway a good thing.

However you deem fit, etc.

[Lingchih]

Your hosting regimen seems fine to me Pasha. Sure, we have to deal with an extra day quite often, but that's really no big deal. Most of my comments on IRC about "just stale him", have been in jest.

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 15 is out.

Deadline is Friday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time. After this turn, we switch to the Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday schedule.

Thanks.

Pasha

[namad]

dangit... this version of turn15 went less well than the last one :-/ oh well

[Aethyr]

I think staling the uncommunicative player is all fair and good, but of course some host discretion is alway a good thing.

However you deem fit, etc.

Pasha, I think you always do a fine job. I like the flexible schedule as well, and I think you should continue to use continue to your discretion.

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 16 is out.

Deadline is SUNDAY at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

We are now switching to a Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday hosting schedule.

Thanks.

Pasha

[namad]

I think I underestimated how much a two turn rollback would effect the game.


Anyways, this alternate reality has played out so much worse for me than the original one that I can't stomach playing anymore. My position is unwinnable but you can feel free to try to find a sub for it. (Although it's hard to find subs for awful positions and games suffer less when awful positions stale or ai).


Also, taking a week to go from turn15 to turn16 didn't make it any easier to cope with the shift. As by the time turn 16 rolled around, I'd lost a lot of interest in the game. Overall, I found the large game+lax hosting rules policy to be fairly aggravating... a small game with lax hosting policies isn't so bad because there aren't enough people to abuse the goodwill but in a large game it just seems like an endless problem.


I'm contemplating quitting overlords as well ... all the confusing hoops dom3 players have to go through to play dom3 have been wearing on me slowly for a year... I wish dom3 had 'real' multiplayer that didn't require so many gimmicks to make work. Like civilization4 or warcraft3 or etc...

[rdonj]

I'm contemplating quitting overlords as well ... all the confusing hoops dom3 players have to go through to play dom3 have been wearing on me slowly for a year... I wish dom3 had 'real' multiplayer that didn't require so many gimmicks to make work. Like civilization4 or warcraft3 or etc...

:( And you're not even an overlord to have to jump through all the hoops in that game.

[namad]

The only reason I mentioned overlords is because it is now my only game and being my only game... if I were to quit all my games... this would be the same as quitting only it... theres nothing specific about overlords except that if I quit all the games I was in it would be included...

Futhermore, the hoops are the entire lack of multiplayer support.... not odd rules added.


A one turn rollback generally doesn't have much variation in the orders given so generally doesn't have much in the way of new non-random outcomes. A two turn rollback not only gives everyone lots of additional information but the ability to act on it as well. I can understand how llamaserver wouldn't know if someone was set to AI... but how someone who hosted by hand wouldn't've noticed that caelum never emailed in a turn 14 file is odd...


Dwelling on petty issues like this and feeling guilty about how much importance I place on things so petty.... this is what's led me to be unable to play. I can't play a game that makes me so upset with people who did so little to me.

[djo]

I can understand how llamaserver wouldn't know if someone was set to AI... but how someone who hosted by hand wouldn't've noticed that caelum never emailed in a turn 14 file is odd...

The answer to that is simple. With something like 12-15 players still in the game, I didn't count emails. I started up Dominions and looked to see which nations didn't have played turns. I didn't notice that there was one fewer nation in the list.

Plus, I was guest-hosting a total of three games, so I was juggling a lot of emails and three different hosting schedules, a few with player-subs and other delays. Not that I'm complaining, but my focus wasn't as complete as it could have been. I missed it when Caelum went AI, and I apologize for that.

[WraithLord]

namad, I can relate to your frustration. I can tell you that I have been frustrated in the past with dominions b/c of one reason or another. For me the root cause is that I got really involved in my games, too involved for my own good :o
So at the past I could get upset by in game events like unexpected betrayals for example or what I considered to be unfair alliances against me. I never spoke much about this b/c I considered the fault to have been my own and always reminded myself of the "it's just a game" mantra. For me, it helped.

Also, I've witnessed first person on many occasions players that got so mad about dominions, or more accurately, fellow players. I've known at least one player who has completely slammed the door on dominions. Another that was extremely upset with me for reasons I don't want to mention (so as to keep that Pandora box close :) ).

Anyway, all that said I think it would be really nice of you to cont. playing this game. This would be very considerate towards all the players. You see, even a small nation that goes AI so early can create serious ripples in power balance and give unfair advantage to its opportunistic neighbors thus punishing most other players in the game and rewarding whom is/are your current enemies. This is mainly the reason I myself don't surrender even when all hope is gone. My meager reward is conjuring the face of my oppressor as he checks his turns and realizes how dearly he pays to gain my last territories :D

Anyway it's just a request. If playing this game so chaffs on your nerves then by all means go ahead & reject it.

[rdonj]

Ah, that is what you meant. I get it now.

[PashaDawg]

Hi Namad:

I hope you'll continue to play. However, I can try to find a substitute if necessary, and it would be nice if you could try to find a sub, too. (Please, continue playing until a sub is found, at the very least.)

Regarding the host not noticing a player going AI, djo was merely a substitute host. He was kind enough to take three games off my hands while I traveled, which was a big favor. He did an excellent job. I owe him chocolate. It is not surprising that he would not notice that a player went AI or foresee that it would be a big issue. I will try to check to see if any players go AI unannounced in the future, but it is very easy to overlook when you're hosting and not playing.

Again, it's great to have you in the game, and I hope you'll stay in it.

Pasha

[Omnirizon]

Folks,

I'm traveling will be in tomorrow night, but it will be a little past 9 before I get it. I will send it in that night, but it will probably be around 11am.

can you please wait till i'm in to host?

PS. I do have internet, and I installed dom3 on this machine, but it is new machine and I forgot to enter copy protection, so I can't play it :(

[Lingchih]

I would probably never do a rollback again, unless the game had become broken in some way.

[namad]

There is absolutely no chance of me playing out this game.

I will also not be looking for a substitute player.



I could elaborate and explain but last time I tried that there was some confusion about my point. I do tend to ramble... furthermore I really hate arguing and slander and fighting and every time I try to type it up... it feels slanderous, rude, or identical to my previous posts.

I will however be willing to compile all of the files I ever received for the game and forward them to whoever might be interested (although I assume pashadawg has these files... if this were a llamaserver game though he wouldn't...)

[PashaDawg]

Hi Namad:

No problem. I will look for a sub.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Okay. It looks like I have found a sub. I will make a general announcement later. Assuming Omni can get his turn in tonight, I can likely host tonight, but I will give the new player and Omni some leeway.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Folket (Twokubikmeter) has taken over Namad's nation.

Welcome Folket!

[Folket]

To bad I did not manage to get the map before now and since I'm so busy today I will upload my turn tomorrow evening.

[PashaDawg]

Okay.

[namad]

getting a sub so easily for this game has really helped me to calm down a lot. thank you everyone involved.

my current policy has been to only be willing to allow for sub'ing if i feel like there is a high chance that I am so angry that i'll never ever play dominions 3 again... i felt like to do any less would be cowardly, dishonest, and rude to the other players!

However.... this policy means i consider quitting the community forever about twice a year neither solution is quite perfect!

furthermore if I lowered the threshold of upsetness required for me to be willing to look for a sub.... I wouldn't also be too upset to look for a sub


something I'll be thinking about in the coming weeks to say the least

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 17 is out.

Deadline is Thursday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 18 is out.

Deadline is Sunday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[Wokeye]

LOL I'm finding this no diplomacy thing quite amusing, really.

So I take it that when your nation goes under that identifying your nation is OK but you still shouldn't post tactical information - like who killed you, etc?

[PashaDawg]

Hi Wokeye:

Correct.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 19 is out.

Deadline is Wednesday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[Omnirizon]

so turns are due right now... that means that in about two more days they will all be in and Pasha can actually host?

amiright?

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 20 is out.

Deadline is Friday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Also... giving due warning, I have decided to crack the whip! If players need an extension, then please ask. I have dusted off the staling tool.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Agartha was played by Aethyr.

Thanks for playing! Adieu.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

I am looking for a replacement for MSCFish. If anybody is interested, please contact me.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Still looking for a replacement. :D

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 21 is out.

Deadline is Sunday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 22 is out.

Deadline is Tuesday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 23 is out.

Deadline is Friday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

This weekend is a holiday weekend (and Thursday is the big holiday) in the USA. So, the turn will be "due" on Friday, but we will take a flexible turn hosting schedule, because several players likely have travel plans.

Thanks.

Pasha

[Folket]

That change in schedule is bad for me since I wont be able to play a turn saturday to monday. So if I can't play my sunday turn on friday I will not be able to play it.

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 24 is out.

Deadline is Tuesday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time. That will get us back on track with the Tuesday / Thursday / Sunday hosing schedule.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 25 is out.

Deadline is Thursday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 26 is out.

Deadline is Sunday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 27 is out.

Deadline is WEDNESDAY at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 28 is out.

Deadline is Friday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 29 is out.

Deadline is **Monday** at 9:00 p.m. Boston time due to the delayed hosting.

Thanks.

Pasha

[Zeldor]

Yay! I hope we can keep on scheduled hosting :)

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 30 is out.

Deadline is Thursday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[WraithLord]

Phew *wipes sweaty brow*, broke the Pasha RAND curse, or at least it's latest flavor - being the first man to get kicked in the a** ;)

Ulm, don't sweat it. I say, if you have to go, better be the first about it. That way you get to start a new game, or have that much more time in RL if that's your thing :)

Ahm, Who are you anyway?

[Micah]

Agartha died a while back...

[WraithLord]

What, but, but, who was he? Oh, I see, Pasha updated the first post. So it was Aethyr. That explains why he has more time to handle a war against me in Sharivar :D

Micah, you miss nothing. :hat off.

[PashaDawg]

Ulm was played by Calahan.

[WraithLord]

I'm sorry to hear that Calahan.

BTW, what's the deal with Agartha?- It's seems to always be the first out. EA and MA are weak alright but I think there's more to it. It probably has more to do with their reputation as weak nations than with them actually being weak. I mean, take a solid nation and stamp on it's forehead "I'm a pushover, please come take my lands" - that's enough to ruin that nation's life. For Agartha it's even worse since it really is all that.
As it stands, if you get Agartha in a RAND game you know you're in for a short and quite painful trip.

[Zeldor]

They are really that weak.

[Trumanator]

How many nations aren't going to be rick-rolled by shadow vestals?

[Zeldor]

Machaka owns shadow vestals. Abysia owns them too. Some other nations too.

[Squirrelloid]

Wow, someone managed to rickroll people in this game? Ok, I'd certainly break my scripting if the enemy started playing bad 80s music videos, so it must be a winner! The AI is smarter than we thought!

Are we allowed to discuss things that are public knowledge - like the graphs?

[Aethyr]

For Agartha it's even worse since it really is all that.
As it stands, if you get Agartha in a RAND game you know you're in for a short and quite painful trip.

Yup. And since my own skills are nothing to brag about that equates to double trouble. :)

[WraithLord]

You are quite a competent player :)
Agartha just sucks. It may be nice from RP perspective just to see how long you'd be able to hold on with it. It is not really competitive. I think CBM would do well to make (unique) low level summons more accessible to Agartha so that it can survive the game's initial phase, or else close the gap in any other appropriate thematic way.

[Wokeye]

...and as the horde of enemies surrounds the last hero of Shinuyama, he activates the medallion of vengence. He does not die alone this day.

Wow, I got pummelled. Fun game though - good job attacker/s. I had some laughable luck - like losing my pretender in the rollback and finally getting a hero during the last few turns of my game. When combined with some also-laughable decision-making, I was in real trouble. No matter.

GG all. Thanks to Pasha and DJO for hosting.

[PashaDawg]

Thanks for playing Wokeye. (He was playing Shinuyama, and has gone AI.)

[PashaDawg]

Man was played by Folket, who replaced Namad.

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 33 is out.

Deadline is Thursday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time. However, we will have a flexible schedule this weekend. I have to travel for Xmas Eve and won't be back until late Xmas Day.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 35 is out.

Deadline is Thursday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 36 is out.

Deadline is Tuesday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 37 is out.

Deadline is Thursday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Caelum is nearly dead and has gone AI. It was played by MscFish / BandC.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 38 is out.

Deadline is Sunday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 39 is out.

Deadline is Sunday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[Ink]

so after an embarrassing showing in Land Rand, I'm out. I'll wait for the turn to host to announce my nation (or Pasha can do it when he does his next bump).

It was fun and I learned a ton, as always!

-Omnirizon

[WraithLord]

Are you Omnirizon or lnk?- Or are you one and the same?

[Zeldor]

Huh, turning AI while cap is still not taken? That's just not cool, everyone should stick till the end and try to put up a fight. He owes it to other players, fighting hard here.

[Ink]

In interest of not divulging any information which may aid my beseigers, I won't reply with any details. But suffice it to say you don't really have much to worry about there, Zeldor.

-Omni

[Squirrelloid]

there are issues with the new .trn file. Someone failed to use the proper .trn file from last turn. Shame on him or her.

[Lingchih]

That blows. I got two great events.

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 40 is out. ***Be sure to use the correct .trn file. ***

Deadline is Friday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time due to the delay caused by the rehost.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Pythium has gone AI. It was played by Omnirizon.

[Ink]

thanks for allowing me to play.

-Omni

[PashaDawg]

Thank you for playing!

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 41 is out.

Deadline is Sunday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Alpine Joe will be replacing QM. I am going to delay the hosting until Thursday night to give him time to play this turn.

[Trumanator]

Well the once rising nation of Vanheim is all but snuffed out. It was a privilege to play, and I hope to offer a better showing in the future.

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 43 is out.

Deadline is Wednesday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time; (Wednesday instead of Tuesday due to the delayed hosting).

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 44 is out.

Deadline is Friday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 47 is out.

Deadline is Thursday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[Zeldor]

I must say that based on Land and other RAND games that format really does not work at all, except very limited situations. No diplo makes it pretty much impossible to take down leaders or organise anything, thus starting positions and nations you get are huge factor. And when there is difference in skill level there is almost no skill factor - there are few good players that can just easily annihilate all remaining players. And it's up to nation they get + skill of neighbours to determine who will get bigger and stronger.

I think that for RAND to work you need:
- small map with
- very balanced nation selection [that was a huge problem in last RAND]
- and players of same skill level
- that do not get subbed out by weaker players [here we should proably introduce rule to not talk about that game to anyone outside, so it does not kill the pool of potential good subs]

I like LAND and RAND games, but the more I play them, the more I think that normal games are better and more fair.

[WraithLord]

I have a long experience with RAND games and I personally agree with you Zeldor. I've noticed that with no gem gens and small maps and diplo I'm having the most fun games. I also agree with your suggestions to improve the format.

[Meglobob]

I think it might be better allowing players to choose there nations, those can still be awarded in secret. I got a nation in this game I really did not want to play, yet was stuck with. I have done a decent job but being, 'uninspired' I feel I have only played to 70-80% of my normal ability.

[WingedDog]

Sorry for little OT.
If I want to participate in the next RAND game, how do I get in?

[Squirrelloid]

Sort of agree with Zeldor. I have noticed that most of the remaining players are longtime veterans (certainly excluding myself), so i definitely think there's a skill factor involved. But there is also a 'usual suspects' aspect to which nations are left, although some quite powerful nations are dead or dying at the moment.

[WraithLord]

MB, this is an excellent idea. I share your sentiment re. getting a boring/weak/ nation or a nation that you down right don't like to play. Happened to me as well in this game, in the past RAND, and in the past past RAND :)

I sucked it up and did the best I can but I was anything but inspired.

Perhaps a semi random assignment system would work. Each player chooses 3 nations and conflicts are resolved by a die roll.

[WingedDog]

Perhaps a semi random assignment system would work. Each player chooses 3 nations and conflicts are resolved by a die roll.

In 'Art of War' I allowed players to repick a nation they get to another random one, but only once.

[Zeldor]

Actual RAND was best, as it was quite small and mostly skilled players. But map was totally unbalanced and so were nations, so it divided game into two leagues. Removing of gem-gens was surely a step forward. 8-12 may be best amount of players for RAND games and as community is generally more skilled now, it would be easier to get good selection of players. But I don't think we have any really balanced maps. And we'd need much more balanced version of CBM to eliminate randomness from nations [really, how can you have Sauro and Agartha compared].

But RAND game will still be a niche, fun if well made, but if someone wants more balanced and interesting game, simple ban on trading + semi-random is the way to go.

WingedDog:

I don't think Art of War is good example here. It had like hmm... 80% people sub out? +some people going AI wrecked the game +not wraparound map helped some people

[Micah]

I disagree, rand is great.

I think a lot of the vets like the RAND format precisely because it prevents crazy ganging. Artifacts was just a continual gang-bang of whichever player was doing the best, and that's a pretty frustrating mechanic. Eliminating diplo makes playskill matter more, not less, and in normal Dominions playskill is completely eclipsed by diplomacy, so it's nice to be able to get away from that mechanic if desired.

Granted, nations could be better balanced, but Dawn Rand has some pretty interesting contenders. Sauro is down and out, and the top 3 nations are Atlantis, Ermor and Kailasa...not exactly a usual suspects list. It's not like diplo helps out the crappy nations very much either, everyone knows you're just free territory. Nation-balancing is a mod discussion, not a format discussion, although some reroll capability on nation choice wouldn't be bad to keep out some of the really out-of-line nations.

What balance issues do you have with the Greece map? It's one of the best I've seen.

[WingedDog]

WingedDog:

I don't think Art of War is good example here. It had like hmm... 80% people sub out? +some people going AI wrecked the game +not wraparound map helped some people

1) It has nothing to do with repick proposal.
2) Just dug up game thread, 7 out of 17 original players including you were subed. A little less then 80% IMO.
3) Only two players turned to AI, and it was far beyond early game stage. As far as I remember first defeat (not AI turning) was on turn 37.

[DonCorazon]

I disagree, rand is great.

I think a lot of the vets like the RAND format precisely because it prevents crazy ganging. Artifacts was just a continual gang-bang of whichever player was doing the best, and that's a pretty frustrating mechanic. Eliminating diplo makes playskill matter more, not less, and in normal Dominions playskill is completely eclipsed by diplomacy, so it's nice to be able to get away from that mechanic if desired.

Granted, nations could be better balanced, but Dawn Rand has some pretty interesting contenders. Sauro is down and out, and the top 3 nations are Atlantis, Ermor and Kailasa...not exactly a usual suspects list. It's not like diplo helps out the crappy nations very much either, everyone knows you're just free territory. Nation-balancing is a mod discussion, not a format discussion, although some reroll capability on nation choice wouldn't be bad to keep out some of the really out-of-line nations.

Even with Rand, a lot still comes down to ganging up on nations. I don't think any one-on-one wars remain that way for long in MP. In Dawn RAND as I recall, Atlantis and Sauro fought a bit back and forth until large Ermorian armies arrived on the Sauro border poised to invade – soon after Sauro went into free fall. Not to say Sauro wasn’t outplayed, but its pretty tough to escape the ganging up mechanic in MP. RAND format just makes it less structured and saves the hassle of diplomacy.

btw - whatever happened to Dawn RAND - talk about a game languishing...

[Micah]

Right DC, but I'm not saying that multi-front wars are a diplo-only thing, but there's a big difference between what happened to Sauro in DR and what happened in artifacts.

Sauro was a victim of heavy poaching, and had a while to actually fight a somewhat fair war before Ermor became involved (Ermor didn't attack until Sauro's cap had been captured, in fact, IIRC), in Arti nations basically imploded in 3 turns as everyone launched simultaneous attacks on them.

[Zeldor]

Micah:

Try to imagine how would it look with really balanced nations. Doncorazon had not much time to play his nation, so he did not use his great nation and spot. Ermor has awesome spot on that map [see Warcry] and some nations had really extremely bad position [bad nation + weak spot] - Marverni, Ulm, C'tis and Agartha. You can try to come out of that position, but you are doomed from the start. Playing to achieve the most out of bad can be fun, but every player should have pretty much equal chance for winning. And Kailasa was probably one of the nominees for victory from the beginning on that map :)

I am not sure if what we have in LAND [big nations just eating small ones unable to organise anything to even put up a fight] is cool. Artifacts should be erased from our memores as an example of a game that should not exist. And now normal games without gem gens are much more appealing.

You also probably did not read my line about GreeceStain properly - I was complaining about Dawn map, Greece is probably the most balanced map around, but I don't think you can find 18 nations on similar level, unless making it multi-era RAND or giving vets weaker nations on purpose.

[Micah]

Zeldor - "But I don't think we have any really balanced maps." I don't see how this is referring specifically to Dawn, as it's pluralized. I can see how you meant to imply "any balanced maps for 8-12 players" but I think it was poorly contextualized, not poorly read. ;-)

I don't think the rest of the points have much difference compared to normal Dom. As you said, just look at Warcry for an example of that.

The solution to this isn't to ditch the rand concept, but to try to pare down the outliers and get some more modding solutions for balance.

Artifacts serves as an excellent example of what can go wrong in a game, and I think making light of the fact that it "shouldn't exist" is giving up a valuable milestone.

I agree with you on LAND, the map is too big and the player skill too divergent, but again, this is a problem with normal dom as well. The playskill question is also not magically solved with diplo, as weaker players often make incredibly BAD diplomatic plays.

[Zeldor]

I think we agree on general idea :) RAND is not passe, it can work, but I think it should be played with 8-12 players, on very balanced map [like Greece, but well, smaller and maybe 2-3 more provs per player or more farmlands, as some nations need them] with carefully selected nations [all weak, all average or all strong]. And for that I hope that next CBM really focuses more on nation balance [yeah, we will have to poke QM a bit on that], so it's easier to get that.

[Meglobob]

MB, this is an excellent idea. I share your sentiment re. getting a boring/weak/ nation or a nation that you down right don't like to play. Happened to me as well in this game, in the past RAND, and in the past past RAND :)

I sucked it up and did the best I can but I was anything but inspired.

Perhaps a semi random assignment system would work. Each player chooses 3 nations and conflicts are resolved by a die roll.

Well, I am happy with all aspects of RAND games except getting a random nation that you might not want to play and agree with Wraithlord above. Sadly more work for Pasha would be the major drawback.

I am happy with the maps and personally don't want to see all nations becoming balanced vs each another. That would make the game really boring and I probably would not bother.

The exception to that is of course I would like to see weak nations like Machaka, Oceania, Agartha and Ulm made stronger so they have more of a chance. But thats a discussion for the main board/CBM thread. Note the way it is now, I would point blank refuse to play Machaka or EA/Ma Oceania in MP as they stand exactly no chance from turn 0, so whats the point?

[DonCorazon]

Right DC, but I'm not saying that multi-front wars are a diplo-only thing, but there's a big difference between what happened to Sauro in DR and what happened in artifacts.

Sauro was a victim of heavy poaching, and had a while to actually fight a somewhat fair war before Ermor became involved (Ermor didn't attack until Sauro's cap had been captured, in fact, IIRC), in Arti nations basically imploded in 3 turns as everyone launched simultaneous attacks on them.

Micah, I agree with you - Artifacts was the worst example of endless dogpiling. Rand has been different, and as you say, there was a long-time-for-Dominions one-on-one war. But even before Sauro lost its cap, large armies were being moved up along its borders, so its demise felt inevitable even before Ermor became engaged (and a little DonCorazoncita was born) :).

Zeldor, I think its premature to judge. Its not like every game on that map is going to be won by Sauro just b/c of its position and nation. In fact, its just b/c of that perception that its likely to get ganged up on, even in a RAND environment. Not to mention there are peculiar circumstances to each game (e.g. lab burn down twice, once before a siege) that impact strategy (or lack thereof). In fact, I'd argue that Atlantis as the only UW nation and with recruitable SCs is well-positioned especially in a Rand setting. Seems most Rand games are won by nations with recruitable SCs.

[Zeldor]

I never said it was destined to win. In DR there were few nations with good chances. Vanheim with extremely good starting spot. Atlantis being only uw nation + only nation with recruitable SCs. Kailasa with weak C'tis south of them [but Caelum was a threat and good position there too], Helheim, if played well could get a sweet Van's spot. Ermor got extremely rich provinces and was quite secure there, despite being in the middle [Ulm and Marv were really doomed up there, no threat to Ermor] and Sauro well... it's simply Sauro, so people expect a lot from it :)

There is certainly smth about SC nations dominating RAND games [Jotun here is good example].

[PashaDawg]

btw - whatever happened to Dawn RAND - talk about a game languishing...

Ugh. I have to find another substitute. Need a player to replace shovah who had to drop out for understandable reasons. Let's see if we can find someone by this weekend so the game can end properly.

Pasha

[cleveland]

Forgive the eavesdropping, but as a participant in the Rand Dawn game I'd like to chime in.

RAND is a great concept, but diplo is really a huge part of the game. SC nations rule RAND games because SCs rule the base game...and the base game makes great use of human psychology to nerf SC nations with the tagteam bat.

But excessive tagteam sucks, as mentioned.

There has to be a balance somewhere in the middle, where diplo can be utilized as a necessary game element, but dogpiling is discouraged/mitigated.

Here's an un-thought-out suggestion: how about a "No NAP" game? Alliances are fine, but formal Non-Aggression pacts with the rediculous "no attacks for X turns" are strictly forbidden as a house rule. Why? Because more than once I've gone to war because I only had 1 vulnerable boarder, and that boarder was being eaten up from the opposite end. Eliminate the security, eliminate the dogpiling.

Thoughts?

[Micah]

It's been done, or similarly enough, with non-binding diplomacy games.

[cleveland]

It's been done, or similarly enough, with non-binding diplomacy games.

Nah, I mean NAPs are strictly forbidden. In non-binding diplo games, folks still want to have a good reputation in-game, so most NAPs are still honored.

I'm talking about a game where NAP-Xs simply don't exist.

[DonCorazon]

I like the idea of no NAPs.

Was also thinking of a game where everyone had a predetermined enemy, kind of like the NCAA brackets. Zeldor's map was kind of like that - I don't recall the name of the game, but where we started in valleys and had to duel at least our first enemy. Maybe a map with a series of closed valleys. Geography would force more one-on-one wars. Though now that I think about it, that's probably too formulaic for my tastes.

[WraithLord]

Getting stuck with crappy, significantly weaker, nation in a RAND game is not fun. You know from the starters the game holds 0 promise for you. It's not fun the first time it happens, less fun the 2nd and gets worse for me - having had a bad luck streak with RAND nation assignment. When skill level is homogeneous there's no way to compensate for a weak nation. The nation selection element needs to be addressed.

As for diplomacy leading to excessive dog piling why not attack the bad angle instead of diplo as a whole?- like, say, Prohibit more than 2 nations attacking a given nation at a time.

[vfb]

Getting stuck with crappy, significantly weaker, nation in a RAND game is not fun. You know from the starters the game holds 0 promise for you. It's not fun the first time it happens, less fun the 2nd and gets worse for me - having had a bad luck streak with RAND nation assignment. When skill level is homogeneous there's no way to compensate for a weak nation. The nation selection element needs to be addressed.


Or you just have fun with what you're dealt, do what you can, and when you die, you die happy.


As for diplomacy leading to excessive dog piling why not attack the bad angle instead of diplo as a whole?- like, say, Prohibit more than 2 nations attacking a given nation at a time.

I don't think this is going to work. What if three nations want to attack? They have a lottery? How do they even know they are all going to war that month? How do you even know when a war is starting? You'd have to declare all wars in advance. What if secretly allied nations collude to have a 'pretend' war, preventing themselves from being attacked? What if your only avenue of expansion is through a nation that is already at war with 2 other nations?

[WraithLord]

"Or you just have fun with what you're dealt, do what you can, and when you die, you die happy."

Hey, I've no problem with that but it's not fun. Fun in a TBS game is derived from ability to nurture your investment (nation, state, space colony etc) and see it evolve. It's ok to fight wars, it's ok to lose them but it's not ok to have significantly less chance to see your nation grow from the start. A RAND game played with a weak nation sees you getting pounded from early on and usually from many directions. The problem is not to die happy it's how you suffer all the way there. Usually I end up wishing my nation's death would come all the sooner since at that state my turns seem futile. I keep playing out of obligation for the other players not to create a power vacuum.

"
I don't think this is going to work. What if three nations want to attack? They have a lottery? How do they even know they are all going to war that month? How do you even know when a war is starting? You'd have to declare all wars in advance. What if secretly allied nations collude to have a 'pretend' war, preventing themselves from being attacked? What if your only avenue of expansion is through a nation that is already at war with 2 other nations?
"
Yeah, the idea is not good. However I still think that the direction for a remedy is not to totally ban diplo but rather find a way to limit it's abuse. I'll give it more thought, maybe I'll come up with a better suggestion.

[DonCorazon]

I think smaller maps with fewer and more qualified (either by reputation, track record or whatever) players and no NAPS is a movement in the right direction.

Large games invariably lead to a number of problems.
You get the fly-by-night players with 3 posts that sign up after having a few drinks and wake up like they were next to Sade the Harpy and abandon the game. Then there is the overenthusiastic noob signed up in 10 games that will flare out half way through and collapse meteorically.

In large games also there is the sense that with 12+ nations, you can dogpile on a few and not worry about the consequences until much later. A lot of these games are just a series of regional dogpiles. I am guessing with 6 or 8 nations, while there still will be dogpiling, the paranoia of survival kicks in much earlier and just the fact there are less nations to team up with will reduce the tag-teaming, especially if the map is set up right.

Finally, smaller games/maps will lessen the late-game micro hell.

[Meglobob]

Won't smaller maps just weight the game even more in favour of the strong bless nations and giant races? Well weakening the more magic/research driven nations?

I suppose you could have easy research and high gem site % thou to help counteract that somewhat.

[Zeldor]

Meglobob:

The idea is that for smaller number of nations it's possible to pick only nations on similar level. You can pick only powerful nations for example. And with bigger map you use almost all nations, so some people get really bad nations while others get awesome.

[DonCorazon]

Oh yeah, that was the other point I meant to make - thanks Zeldor.

[Burnsaber]

I really don't play RND games at all, but this discussion caught my eye.

DonCorazon;

Ditto very much on all of your points. I basically just skip all games with over 12 players.

Getting stuck with crappy, significantly weaker, nation in a RAND game is not fun. You know from the starters the game holds 0 promise for you. It's not fun the first time it happens, less fun the 2nd and gets worse for me - having had a bad luck streak with RAND nation assignment. When skill level is homogeneous there's no way to compensate for a weak nation. The nation selection element needs to be addressed.


Abot random nation selection, Gregstrom made a fine game sometime ago with quite good random nation selection. It went like this;

Each player, upon sign up, selects a nation. Once all players have selected a nation, the players are assigned RND nations from all of the nations selected by players.

Basically you likely end up with all weak nations or all strong nations depending on the first pick, but with healthy variation.

[namad]

I had an idea once where wars could not be joined...
this is how it would work...




no one may attack anyone period.

If you would like to attack someone else all you have to do is post publicly a declaration of war. you may then attack them as much as you want.



Anyone who wishes to ally with you against that nation may do so. A full turn later though that war get's locked in on your side. That means no one else can attack the other player until either the other player wins the war, gets you to agree to a truce, or gains his own ally. (once a truce is joined the status goes back to how it was before... or some such)




If you have been attacked by another player you may call upon allies to assist you... however you again may only declare allies on one specific turn. (just like starting a war) these allies may then attack the enemy allied group and vica versa until the war is won or is over or is halted publicly...





so under these rules no one can ever sneak attack anyone and no one can ever dogpile onto someone.... (you can still make a sneak attack in that the person will only ever have one turn of warning... which is still a lot less than 3turns everyone is getting nowadays)



This will also prevent people from just randomly joining a war as it continues... however you can still create a large (or small) alliances designed to dogpile others but you have to do it well in advance... (things could be changed so that all wars are duels that may only be 1on1 but that would be stupid and boring and totally remove diplomacy all together)


under these rules there would be no point at all in a nap3 because all nations everywhere always have a nap1... so the main diplomatic agreements to secure would be ally-ship in publicly posted wars which were nearly locked into position for quite some time...


It sounds like it might work but I am sure anyone with half a brain could pick a thousand holes into it

[WraithLord]

KISS :)

The solution needs to be simple to understand and follow or else it won't work.

After giving this more thought I now hold that RAND concept is sound at it's core. The main issues are:
a- subs, specifically newb subs in a vets RAND. The situation is all too familiar. The vet player is replaced by a newb. His nation, whether a strong empire or a humble kingdom is either quickly devoured or is extremely passive. Both ends unfairly impact the game result.
b- nation selection should be semi random.

[namad]

i don't think my idea is inherently complex... as far as i can tell it could be implemented in such a fashion that it would be SIMPLER than the current system...


if anything the only flaw I see in the system i proposed is that it is far too simple in every way by disallowing nearly everything and turning diplomacy into a boolean operation


i'm just inarticulate and long winded ... you know what might work well? RAND games with HALF the total player count.... smaller games end faster

[PashaDawg]

KISS :)

The solution needs to be simple to understand and follow or else it won't work.

After giving this more thought I now hold that RAND concept is sound at it's core. The main issues are:
a- subs, specifically newb subs in a vets RAND. The situation is all too familiar. The vet player is replaced by a newb. His nation, whether a strong empire or a humble kingdom is either quickly devoured or is extremely passive. Both ends unfairly impact the game result.
b- nation selection should be semi random.

Good points, me thinks.

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 54 is out.

Deadline is Thursday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

A rehost of turn 54 is out. Deadline is Friday.

Please be sure to use the correct .2h file.

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 55 is out.

Deadline is Tuesday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 56 is out. This is with the 3.24 patch.

Deadline is Thursday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

The game is crashing when I host the turn.

Any potential solutions?

Pasha

[Lingchih]

Probably just have everyone re-do and re-submit their turns.

[PashaDawg]

I suppose that might be the best. I'd like to get the game to run in debug mode, but I cannot get that to happen. Can someone give me exactly what to type in a unix command line? I am using a Mac.

If I am in the /Applications/Dominions3/Contents/MacOS directory, I can type "open -a Dominions3" and the game will start. If I type "open -d Dominions3" it does nothing (the game won't start). Same with "open -a Dominions 3 -d". What am I missing?

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

I have figured out using the process of elimination that it is Atul's turn that is making the game crash.

*Points finger

I ask that Atul replay his turn and resubmit.

Thanks.

Pasha

[Zeldor]

Well, in Windows it's "/path/dominions3/dom3.exe" -ddd as a shortcut path [-ddd after ""]. On Linux it's simply ./dom3_amd64 -ddd

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 59 is out. Thank you to djo for hosting the turn. For some reason Atul's turn crashed the game on my machine but not djo's.

Deadline is Tuesday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 60 is out.

Deadline is Friday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Arco has gone AI. It was played by Lingchih.

Ashdod was played by Ygorl.

Thanks to both for playing!

Pasha

[WraithLord]

Wow, two very skilled vets in control of good nations are down. That's scary.
Pasha, you managed to get some impressive homogeneous skill level for this game. No one gets a break, no error is forgiven :eek:

[Zeldor]

Ygorl is a vet? Ashdod's performance was one of the weakest in this game [not trying to insult Ygorl here] and very disappointing.

[WraithLord]

ok. I may be mistaken but IIRC Ygorl played as far back as dom II and possibly even dom PPP.

I didn't mean for my comment to trigger that response. Perhaps there are factors you're not aware of that are behind Ashdod's demise. Anyway, I'm feeling uncomfortable with the direction this is taking so I opt to say no more.

[Lingchih]

Ygorl and I basically killed each other off, then others came in to mop up the carnage.

[PashaDawg]

Indeed, Ygorl had returned from a hiatus. It was nice to have him play again.

[WraithLord]

Ygorl and I basically killed each other off, then others came in to mop up the carnage.

Yes. I've noticed that this is pretty common in no diplo games. Once a war is started there's no way to end it so if one side doesn't win quickly both parties are doomed.

[WraithLord]

* should have done this before opening game thread... :doh: *

Guys with Pasha's permission I'm inviting you to join YARG2 game. There are 2 last spots available so please ping me ASAP if you're interested.

[Micah]

sorry about the holdup everyone. been traveling and have had no free time at all. will be back home tonight and back to a sane schedule.

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 61 is out.

Deadline is Thursday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[Meglobob]

Most turns are delayed now, so how about we move to 2 turns a week, say Thurs/Sun? We are (slowly) getting to the endgame, so it seems reasonable.

[PashaDawg]

I am certainly happy with that if players are. How about a Wednesday / Sunday schedule?

[Meglobob]

Sounds good to me.

I actually think I know who will win this game anyway, don't worry I won't say who. So playing the remaining turns is probably a waste of everyones time anyway. I am not being in the least bit defeatist here by the way and will happily fight to the bitter, bitter end. Its just by this turn or earlier I have been able to predict with 100% (no joking) accuracy the eventual winner.

If enough players feel the same way, ie that they already know the winner and that future hours invested in doing there turns could be better spent doing something else more productive, we could have a vote where the remaining players PM/Email Pasha with who they think will win (in a secret honest ballot) and then perhaps call the game?

I know alot of experienced players are stubborn and refuse to admit defeat no matter what, so will understand completely if everyone wants to continue and do those fuitless, waste of time turns...:)

[WraithLord]

I agree with MB, though I've no problem to cont. to the bitter end.

[Zeldor]

I totally agree with Meglobob, but with current VPs I think that game will never end in reasonable time frame. I have said long time ago that it should probably be declared as draw and new RAND started, fixing problems from previous ones.

[Lingchih]

There was already a draw in the last Rand game. You guys should fight it out, or Rand will become a joke.

[Meglobob]

There was already a draw in the last Rand game. You guys should fight it out, or Rand will become a joke.

We are not talking about a draw here.

There will definately be a winner, indeed I think I am 100% certain which nation it will be and its only a question of time. But because of the way Dominions late game works, it will take till turn 80 - 100+ for that nation to get the VPs to make it official. Thats 40 - 80 hrs of doing his turns for that nation to play it out and 100's+ hrs for all the other nations to play there turns. All that time for the same result if it was called now.

Lets have a secret, honest vote by pm'ing Pasha. Obviously, if a nation who is in 2nd, 3rd or 4th place has perhaps a, 'masterplan' like been saving all there astral gems to cast arcane nexus and then kick everyones butts, then continue. On the other hand if the vote went pretty much the way of one nation call it. We have a neutral host with Pasha, seems a bit stupid not to take advantage of it to save ourselves considerable amounts of time.

[Zeldor]

Sure, you are right, but I really don't think he can get enough VPs before turn 100-120. It requires attacking other tough players with their VPs being almost unconquerable. I'm against declaring winner now just like that, I don't think it's deserved.

[PashaDawg]

I am happy with whatever, of course.

[Zeldor]

Of course if someone wants to surrender to me, I won't object.

[PashaDawg]

Hello:

Turn 63 is out.

Deadline is Tuesday at 9:00 p.m. Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

[PashaDawg]

Machaka was played by Wraithlord. Thanks for playing!

[Trumanator]

Is it safe to ask defeated players about their strategies in the thread?

[Zeldor]

Who was Machaka?

[Squirrelloid]

Zeldor failed reading comprehension

[Meglobob]

Lasting till turn 63 playing Machaka is quite a achievement, one of the worst nations in Dom3, especially with no fever fetishes.

[WraithLord]

Thanks MB. That's exactly how I feel. Pride in being able to take this nation so far. Machaka is ok for early-mid game and I could even have optimized my build for a better early game by sacrificing any chance for end-game. Didn't do that and somehow managed to do ok with a weak nation until this turn.
Hehe, I'm more proud of this than in some of the game I won :D

Kudos to my enemy/ies esp. to the one/s that have managed to vanquish Machaka.

Looking forward to next Pasha's RAND, hopefully, after getting all the weak nations in previous RANDs I'd get a nation worth a damn ;)

GL all.

[WraithLord]

Is it safe to ask defeated players about their strategies in the thread? I'm ok with this though it would be difficult w/o disclosing information that should be kept discrete given the nature of this game. I guess it's probably better to wait for the end and not take chances.

I would like to make one comment though as I think it's harmless. I took misfortune 2 in a few games in a row under CBM. In all I got such crappy luck with lot's of bad events, so much so as to seriously hurt my nations. This game was no exception.
When the game's over I'd be happy to share my turns. The frequency of bad events should be interesting to observe :)
So, lesson learned -I ain't taking more than misfortune 1 with CBM anymore!

[Trumanator]

Well mainly I was wondering why you built so many sorceresses.

[WraithLord]

why not? ;)

What's not to like?- cheap, cost effective in research and combat support & survivable to top that. One of the few bright spots in the sad tail of Machaka. If only they were recruit anywhere or, given a +1 E/D pick (+ appropriate increase in cost)...

[Trumanator]

Well I guess I don't see why you would recruit them instead of Black Sorcs.