Cloud Trapeze vs. Faery Trod

[Mysterio]

Ok, I need some expert info for this one, since I've never used these two spells. Do they both teleport a mage and the squads assigned to him to a province? In the manual, the text for Cloud Trapeze makes me think it teleports only the mage, while the text for Faery Trod explicitly mentions the "caster and his army." I need to know if I need to research Ench 5 for Faery Trod, or if Cloud Trapeze will suffice at Ench 4.

Also, besides needing forest provinces for Faery Trod and getting lost, is there any reason to use one over the other if they both teleport mage + mage's squads?

Thanks!

[Tolkien]

Yes, Cloud Trapeze only teleports the mage, and Faery Trod will teleport both the mage and the army. Cloud Trapeze is a great teleport spell for air nations, and a great substitute for teleport (the astral spell).

I believe the chances of getting "lost" in Faery Trod are fairly small (though please, don't take my word for it); however, compare that with a number of the other army-teleportation spells: Stygian Paths, Astral Travel, and Gateway. Gateway is like Faery Trod in that it will only teleport to certain locations (i.e. provinces with friendly labs), Astral Travel is damned expensive (25 pearls), and Thaum-9, and Stygian Paths is also significantly more expensive then Faery Trod (15 death gems), is at Thaum-8, and your army will get attacked along the way. Faery Trod thus is a great spell if you are moving an army to a forest province, and have the gems to do it.

[Mysterio]

Great! Thank you for the information. Oh, one other thing: do you have to be able to see the province (name listed instead of ???) to be able to use these types of spells?

[Calahan]

Great! Thank you for the information. Oh, one other thing: do you have to be able to see the province (name listed instead of ???) to be able to use these types of spells?
No you don't need to know the province name. But be careful about making unintended enemies by aiming a spell at a province that you 'thought' was owned by your intended enemy :)

Scouting is always your friend in this game.

[Mysterio]

I have another question regarding Cloud Trapeze and coordinating an attack on a province. I'm moving an army into an adjacent enemy province via the "Move" command and mages into the same enemy province via CT. Will the army and mages be together for the ensuing battle? If so, will the mages be positioned per their locations in the layout window?

Thanks!

[thejeff]

No. Ritual phase movement occurs before regular movement. Your mages will appear, a battle will occur, then your army will move in and a second battle will occur.

The mages will however be positioned as set in the layout window.

[Calahan]

I have another question regarding Cloud Trapeze and coordinating an attack on a province. I'm moving an army into an adjacent enemy province via the "Move" command and mages into the same enemy province via CT. Will the army and mages be together for the ensuing battle? If so, will the mages be positioned per their locations in the layout window?

Thanks!
No. Units ordered to Cloud Trapeze (or any similar magic based movement) will happen in the magic phase, which is separate from the movement phase, and indeed happens before the movement phase. (see the "turn resolution sequence" section of the manual for more details on this). Also, any battles that result from actions in the magic phase, such as Cloud Trapeze, is resolved before the movement phase occurs.

So for your above example, your Cloud Trapezing commanders will arrive in the province first and fight anything that is defending it. If they win the fight, then your 'moving' troops will simply arrive in the province next turn to join them(1) without having had to fight anything.(2) If your Cloud Trapezing commanders lost their fight, then your 'moving' troops will fight whatever forces that were remaining at the end of the Cloud Trapeze fight.(1)(3)


Combining and utilising magic phase movement and regular movement is what a lot of the tactics and strategy in Dominions is based on, so it is important to fully understand how both of these work. Nobody should ever hesitate to ask questions on this subject, as it can be a little confusing to new players, and also the cause of much frustration if they are losing fights/troops because of not understanding it.


Finally, the placement of your troops/commanders doesn't ever change unless you change them. But there may be reasons why they do not appear in their intended places in battle. ie. Something might be preventing them from doing this.

For example, each square of the battlefield only allows a total of 6 troop size points. So if you assign ten mages, all of size 2, to all stand in the exact same place, then some of those will be placed adjacent to their intended square in battle. As only three of them could start in their intended places, while the other seven were forced away to adjacent squares.



(1) Unless something happened to stop them.
(2) Unless your opponent also moved troops into the target province that turn, in which case there will be a battle.
(3) Note that Province Defence is replenished after each fight, but any Hit Points lost by non-PD troops is not replenished until the end of the turn. ie. HP's are only regained at the end of the turn, and not at the end of a fight.

[Mysterio]

...

Great info! Thanks for the detailed response.

[vfb]

Also, any stealth armies that you already have in the destination province that have orders to do something other than stealth activity (Hide/Sneak/Preach) will join in fights that occur during the magic phase.

[Benjamin]

I just read today that this is no longer the case (hidden attackers joining magic phase attack). Have you tried it recently?

[Louppatient]

I just ran a quick test (only the debug mod, scout on attack, pretender coming in with cloud trapeze in the same independant province) => they fought together.

[vfb]

I just read today that this is no longer the case (hidden attackers joining magic phase attack). Have you tried it recently?

Yes. Where'd you hear that?

[atul]

Probably a confusion due to the fact that hidden troops on order "attack current province" no more attack on magic phase if they're attacking alone. They only join if there's a magic attack on the province too.

So, "attack current prov" without magic support coming in -> fight after movement phase; "attack current prov" + people teleporting in -> everyone fighting after magic phase before movement.

The movement stuff was redone with all the funky checks at some point. For instance, it's possible for non-uw-commanders to leave uw-enabling items at lab and move on dry land at the same time (because game checks that only at certain point), but if there's a magic attack on the province at the same time when the commander is moving out, there will be an extra check before movement and that commander dies.

Also, as a more practical example, should you have a hiding scout in prov A attacking adjanced B when Sending Horrors to both A and B, the end result will be first scout attacking A, then horrors attacking A and B, and probably no scout left alive to conquer B. Since as there was magic phase attack on A the game checked whether there was any non-hiding troops in A during magic phase. Do-oh. Been there, done that, got yelled at for my stupidity.

...at least, that's according to my current understanding of how things go.

[Corporal Clegg]

If you teleport/cloud trapeze/faerytrod/stygian-paths to a castle of yours which is besieged, will the "teleporting" army fight the sieging army or join your forces inside? Does it happen i magic phase?

[chrispedersen]

you tp into your castle

[Wrana]

One thing more - Faery trod occurs in movement phase, not magic. Don't remember about Stygian paths. Also, unmovable units (Pretenders such as Oracle/Statue or giant oaks) can't Faery trod or move through Stygian paths, though can Teleport.

[Gregstrom]

I was under the impression that the Sphinx (and presumably other very immobile Pretenders) could only move by using Stygian pathe. Teleport certainly doesn't work for it.

[Aethyr]

Among immobile pretenders the Sphinx is unique in this way. IIRC the other immobile pretenders can teleport.

[chrispedersen]

no.

[Graeme Dice]

Both the oracle and the blood fountain can teleport.

[Gregstrom]

There are 2 classes of immobile IIRC - immobile, and very immobile. Sphinxes are very immobile, and can't use teleport/gateway etc., but can use Stygian Paths. I don't know if there are any other very immobile pretenders.