David & Goliath - Running noob game

[Yskonyn]

This is the starting point of a newbie game about to start.
All people interested in joining are, of course, welcome.

It's the first time I am doing this and that's the reason why I don't join a game already running. The idea is to start a newbie game with at least a few newbies from scratch. It's a learning process so all goes at a relaxed pace and before we start we should discuss game settings, empire choices, turn time limits, anything really, here first.

Let me open with the question who want to join?

EDIT: It might be worth noting that I haven't created an entry into the sticky game thread above on purpose. I think we should first get our plans straight before we setup a game entry.

EDIT2: With some advise a more concrete concept can be put on paper (updated as we go for easy ref):

-Early Age game
-Worthy Heroes MOD v1.8
-Shahrivar map
-All settings default
-Graphs ON
-Max 12 players ---> ALL SPOTS TAKEN
-Map with 10 - 15 provinces per player (Shahrivar map chosen)
-Experienced players be restricted to less strong nations
-Llamaserver will be used for turn-flow and hosting ----> GAME NAME: DavidandGoliath
--->Also please take a look through the Llama FAQ:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35160 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35160)
-The game will have a master password
-Do NOT password protect your pretender to avoid problems when needing to sub a player.
-Turn time limit begins as 24hrs and progresses to accomodate longer turns later on.
-Diplomacy is allowed. Use PM on this forum or e-mail for inter-player contact, so be sure to enable private messaging in your profile! Use this thread for reports every player should or must know (like alliances or treaties).

Players:
1) Ossa - Helheim
2) Klepto - Ermor
3) Yskonyn - Caelum
4) thjeff - Pangaea
5) GrudgeBringer - Arcoscephale
6) Alehkhs - Ulm
7) Agusti - T'ien Ch'i
8) Dark Kitty - Mitclan
9) Xanatos - Niefelheim
10) pyg - Fomoria
11) donPablo - Tir na N'og
12) Stagger Lee - C'tis
<TBA></TBA>

[GrudgeBringer]

While a democratic attitude is a good idea, getting TOO democratic leaves you trying to decide/vote/etc on Era, victory conditions, any nations banned, how many to have in game, map, etc.

Pick an era (EA is a good starting era), set how many you would like to have in (anywhere from 8 to 12 is a good number) and pick a map (you can always change it).

This way you at least have some things to talk about instead of having 12 different opinions.

People have a habit of getting antsy and seem to not want to stay around if there is too much time with details.

REMEMBER, a lot of times first games have a lot of people that start but drop out quick if things go a little wrong, so a BIG game is likely to be more of a pain for you than a smaller game.

Just some hints...GOOD LUCK!!

[Quitti]

Good luck with the game. A few suggestions though. Like GrudgeBringer said, being too democratic as a game leader is not a very wise choice - Picking era and the player amount, how they pick nations (random or self-pick) and mods to use + diplomacy rules (machiavellian or must-adhere-to-diplomacy) gives a fair guideline to people wanting to join the game.
I'd like to suggest using CBM 1.6 and Streamers&Standards mods for the game. I also prefer to have slightly increased magic sites to give some thought to magic in the early-midgame - though that might still give an upper hand to those with experience in the game should they jump in here.
For player amount, 8-12 is easy enough to handle, but there is only a couple of maps I'm aware of that fit those amounts of people well enough in a somewhat balanced way.

[Yskonyn]

Great advise, thank you.
That's why experienced player input is appreciated.

You talk about banned nations and such, but newbies don't know anything about overpowered nations in the game. Any suggestions as to which nations you would exclude?

I was thinking about an Early Age start indeed. 8 to 12 players sounds nice. Any suggestions for balanced maps?

[Quitti]

Well, I don't suggest banning any nations, as it's going to be a newbie game. Just restrict a few nations from experienced players should some decide to join, and restricted nations should probably be Niefelheim and Hinnom. Possibly Mictlan and Sauromatia too. There are a lot of strong nations in EA if you know how to leverage the good parts and fill up the bad parts - but that's what you guys are playing this for, to learn the game :)

Shahrivar (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=616294&postcount=33) is a good map for ~10 players. You could go and browse the map&mod part of the forums for more good ideas, but preferably you'd like a map with around 10-15 provinces per player.

Also, I'd suggest using llamaserver - the UI to use it is easy and fast, and it works very well. I have to admit that I haven't used Gandalfs server, but it's another option, as is hosting the game yourself. The host-it-yourself I don't suggest, since it'll give you lots of work, even if you were eliminated from the game.

[Yskonyn]

Great, I'll update the first post.

[Immaculate]

If i could, i would like to join. I've got a little bit of MP game experience but i'm pretty sure people would definately consider me a newbie still.

I also have an AAR with LA atlantis (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=341586) if you want to see how i can totally get trashed by the AI.

If you have me, i'll play with the nation i have the most experience with, Sauromatia.

I've never played Shahrivar but i know that Cradle of Dominions map is made for that many players (not sure if its the right number of provinces)... its a good map for new players i'm told (partially because it comes with the game and is therefore easily accessible).

[Klepto]

Hi. I'm not a complete newbie, I've played in around five MP games and done very badly in all of them. If that's not too much experience I'd like to take Ermor please.

I'd be in favour of using the CBM 1.6 mod, turning graphs off and no holds barred diplomacy.

[Gandalf Parker]

My totally biased opinion...
I think that a direct-connect game is easier on newbies. You just tell Dom3 the address of the server, and the port. After that it plays pretty much the same as a solo game.

Of course everything has its pros and cons. PBEM has more to get a handle on for some people. Getting the emails with your turns in it, figuring out where the game saved your turns, figuring out out how to setup the game on your end, figuring out how to attach your finished .2h file to an email back to the server. On the other hand, once you get a hang on creating games and deciding the games settings, LLama's server has that nice setup page to whip thru the setup and get a game started in less than a minute.

Both both types (by the way) you have to pre-create your god using the "Game Tools" then "Create a Pretender God" (and I recommend putting a password on it when you create it).

For a fast little direct-connect game up to 4 players I have some pre-created on my server. You could just choose one of the "blitz" games and declare it yours.
http://game.dom3minions.com/bin/blitz_chk.cgi
Or one of the vsAI which adds 4 computer players into the game.
http://game.dom3minions.com/bin/vsAI_chk.cgi

Other than that, if you are considering setting up a larger game then the choices are the same except that LLama's is automatic and on others its by request to the person who sets up games on the server. Everything on LLama's setup page can be part of any game request, and some beyond that (such as boosted AI's and some game settings not included).

Gandalf Parker

[Yskonyn]

Thanks for the input. Gandalf I am not sure; did you want in as well?
Klepto and Immaculate; of course, you're welcome. I've added you to the player list in the first post.
There are at least two other newbies I expect to join in, so other than a place for those two, it's free for all. ;)

I have experience with other PBEM games so that won't be a problem.
There's also an old little utility called PBEM Helper, which automates PBEM turns for certain games, but I don't know if D3 is supported. I have to check.

I am all for the more automation the better. I am willing to act as gamehost or 'leader', but I would prefer a certain automation in handling all data.

I am really not sure about playing your first game with any mods, though. If the majority prefers to enable one or the other I'll go along, but shouldn't it be better to go vanilla at first and appreciate the intricacies of the mods later?

[Immaculate]

I don't like the mods but i'll play either with or without the CBM mod depending on what you choose.

I've only played PBEM so far.

[Bondy034]

Yeah, sounds like a plan, i'd say we stick with what seems to be standard turn lengths (24 hours initially, then increasing to 48 and up if needed)

I'd also like to put in a bid for us using CBM 1.6

I'm less fussed about other things, oh, but i'd vote against having a wrap around map, those things confuse me.

Oh and put me down for Pangaea... ;)

[Gandalf Parker]

Im a beta tester. My name is in the credits at the end of the game. I dont think I should join. But thanks for asking.

As for mods, Im with you. Everyone who has played the game for a year or more has their own ideas on what they would like to change and its wonderful that the game allows you to change so much. I even have my own preferences (Single Age to put all 3 eras in one game, Compressed Nations to add a bunch more nations above the 63 in the game already, Watchers to allow a single non-player to watch all actions in the game, Worthy Heroes to add more heroes, Mytheology to add more gods, Magic Site to add more magic sites, chaos mod to scramble all of the above). But I would not recommend that new players start there. Its better to feel a need and then fill it. Otherwise you are just going by the opinions of others. IMHO

Gandalf Parker

[Gandalf Parker]

Oh yeah, and that is why I didnt mention the other games on my server as options. Srand, Chaos, and CBM. Because they are more for those who are bored with vanilla.

[GrudgeBringer]

OK, it shows I play too much without it , but I DO like to keep up with the Mods.

The last CBM I have is 1.5, Does anyone have a link to CBM 1.6?

Thanks Guys:up:

[Bondy034]

CBM 1.6 here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43949

I may only be a newbie, but even i appreciate that it adds viability to some pretenders that are just rubbish otherwise... and i like not feeling locked in with choosing them

[Gandalf Parker]

Ive been trying to get an answer but so far it seems that CBM 1.5 is the last official release and 1.6 is a beta. I havent been able to get a response from the the author in the CBM thread

[Immaculate]

I'm starting to think i should branch out from my favorite nation. I'm still going to play but am not convinced i'll be playing Sauromatia... i want to try some stuff out in SP but i'll either confirm my choice or post a new one before you're ready to start.

[Immaculate]

Put me down for helheim- i want to try this nation out.

[Yskonyn]

Ok updated.

Here are some questions about the game parameters:
Strenght of Independents - This value only tells you that a higher value makes them stronger. But is there any meaning to the number? Does 5 mean 5 stacks of soldiers for example? Something like that.

Special site freq - Is this value a percentage? If so of what and if not what does it mean then?

Money/Resource/Supply multiple - of what?

Victory conditions - Which are normally used and what is Standard opposed to the others?
The manual and in-game tooltips aren't clear about these.

[Alehkhs]

Haha, well - I'm totally clueless to all of this.

Looking through the histories, I guess I'll play as the nation of Ulm (Enigma of Steel). What all do I need to do to get ready for a multiplayer game?

Also, it would be better if this began next week (or I suppose if the turns were longer than 24 hours). I have a trip this weekend, and I can't guarantee internet access on Saturday.

[Immaculate]

I disagree- start as quickly as possible and we can just pause the game for your trip. thats totally possible and easy to do.

[Immaculate]

Independent strength default value is 5. If you put 4 they are slightly weaker and if you put 6, they are slightly stronger. If you want something other then 4,5,or 6, i think you're playing a very different game. i suggest sticking with 5.

Special site frequency is how often you find magic sites. The default value for early age is 45 and its 35 for late age. Probably best to leave it at 45 but i played with 55 in another game and didn't really notice a difference... yet...

Money resource multiples i forget (there's a faq on setting up games on llamaserver and its written in that- i would check it out)

I think standard victory conditions.

[Immaculate]

All new players should read the FAQ:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35160

You should put this link in the first post.

[rdonj]

Money/resources/supplies is 100 default. Just think of that as percentages of normal values.

Standard is the usual victory condition. Which, basically comes down to the players deciding when someone has won. I would recommend going this route for the game, victory points could be a bad idea for a game between fresh new players.

[Alehkhs]

I disagree- start as quickly as possible and we can just pause the game for your trip. thats totally possible and easy to do.

Ah, well if it's not a problem to pause the game and everyone would prefer that, than that's fine :)

I was just afraid people wouldn't want that interruption.

[Yskonyn]

Thanks for the input, gents.
Alehkhs, there's no objection to stand down for a few days with the turns once you leave as long as the absense (of any player) is coordinated in a timely fashion, for example, here. ;)

Updated first post.
I'll be off to bed now. (GMT+1) More updates tomorrow. Sleep well!

[Bondy034]

speaking of breaks, i'm afraid i'm going to be without access to my computer from the 1st till about the 9th of december... How do we handle that when it comes up, do i switch to ai for those turns? I'm also gonna miss from the 11th to the 14th...

Ok dokey, thanks

[pfloom]

Never played MP before, had a couple of spats against the computer. I'd like to give T'ien Ch'i a go.

[Yskonyn]

pfloom welcome to the fun! I've added you to the playerlist! :)

Bondy, just to get this clear; you will be unavailable from the 1st of december till the 9th. Then you will have the 10th available and then from the 11th till the 14th of dec you're gone again?
So for planning we will consider you gone from the 1st till the 14th.

December will likely be slow anyway with all the holidays coming. Here in Holland we have 'Sinterklaas' (sort of thanksgiving with presents) on the 5th of dec and my birthday is on the 2nd of december, so I will likely not be able to return the turn in 24hrs either during those days. Same goes for X-Mas.

I don't see this as a problem. We could always pause play until everyone is back again during holidays.

[Quitti]

About the mods, if you want to try out the "base" game, I'd suggest still enabling worthy heroes, since some nations don't simply have any meaningful heroes (or any heroes at all) made for them in the vanilla, and the mod fixes that.

Usually when people go (plannedly) missing for longer periods of time, it's customary to find a sub (abbreviation of substitute) player for that time period so others don't need to wait for the one guy. On llamaserver this is easily done by changing the email of the turn reciever to the sub and back to the original when the player comes back. On Gandalf's server I suppose the sub needs to know the password for the nation if there is one, which can mess things up since iirc you can't change the password mid-game. But it still works. I'm sure someone might be willing to help out then, and to lessen the impact for the player who's being substituted, the hosting could be turned to 48 or even 72 hours.

[Dark Kitty]

I would like to join as Mitclan

[Bondy034]

ah, thanks quitti, good to be informed of these things! Should do that then...

[Quitti]

No problem. Pointing out the obvious thing to others is sometimes useful to those who are not familiar with it :)

[Xanatos]

I would love to join as Nifleheim, I've been around the game for over a year now but only played about 5-6 mp games, and have yet to do well in any of them:)

[pyg]

I would like to play if you will have me. I'm not exactly a newb but neither are Klepto, GrudgreBringer, or Immaculate as I've played/playing games with all of them before. I've been in 5 MP games and am still in 2 of them. This game is so big I will still feel newbish for a long while yet. Xanatos is totally not a newb.

I prefer CBM 1.6 and I recommend graphs on for a newbie game.

Seeing as Niefelheim is taken I'd really like to play Hinnom or maybe Fomoria, but I'd settle for Argatha... anybody big/tall/scary.

[Louppatient]

I am interested in playing Tir na N'og.

[Yskonyn]

Ok about the MODs, I really REALLY want to play without any as it is my first game ever and I would rather see the limitations of the base game first, before I venture into 'modland'.
I would ONLY want to enable 'Worthy Heroes' if this ONLY addresses a weakspot in the game to level out all nations concerning heroes and it leaves all other factors alone. Just for the sake of everyone having reasonably similar chances. So, Quitti if this is the case we can enable that mod, but I really want to keep it at that then, any objections?

Others: welcome, I've added you to the list!
Pyg: Please decide upon which nation you would like to play. Three is too much, obviously. ;)

One question remains:
How does one engage in diplomacy in a game? Are there ways in-game to send messages? How does one register treaties/alliances being made? Does this work in the form of e-mails?

[Klepto]

I know I voted for CBM, but I'm happy to play without. I'm not fussed one way or the other about worthy heroes. Also, I know this isn't my first MP game, but really I am very much at the newb end of the spectrum ;)

Edit...

How does one engage in diplomacy in a game? Are there ways in-game to send messages? How does one register treaties/alliances being made? Does this work in the form of e-mails?

There is an in-game message system, but it entails a delay of one turn. Generally people use PMs on this forum for diplomacy, and post to the game thread when required (declaring a public treaty for instance).

[Quitti]

I would ONLY want to enable 'Worthy Heroes' if this ONLY addresses a weakspot in the game to level out all nations concerning heroes and it leaves all other factors alone. Just for the sake of everyone having reasonably similar chances. So, Quitti if this is the case we can enable that mod, but I really want to keep it at that then, any objections?


Well, some nations that don't need heroes have them that give them diversity, others who really need them for the diversity then again don't have any. It's not a "must have" mod but I heartily recommend using it. For example, I don't think oceania has any heroes made for them - whereas EA T'ien Ch'i has awesome national hero mages (one of them can be used with little fuzz to cast arcane nexus, and is immortal in addition). Agartha then again has some olms who are basically their easiest way to higher water magic, which isn't a very useful, but is versatility still. They do have national water mages at early age, so they are not lacking in that field either with or without the heroes.

Remember though, the game itself is not 100% (or even 80%) balanced, so other nations simply have better chances of survival against others, heroes or not ;)

[Yskonyn]

Ok so this thread can funtion as relay of in-game comms which everyone can or must know. PM's are going to be used for inter nation contacts.
I'll update the first post accordingly.

Does this diplomacy involve roleplaying or is that entirely up to the individual player?
I would suggest we use SOME roleplaying in comms just for the entertainment factor. Nothing really deep, just flavour.

On the issue of graphs enabled or disabled. If we have them enabled it might cause players not getting off the ground as well as their rivals to bail out early. If we disable them, however, the newbies (like myself) might have problems keeping tabs on things and to make priorities.
Still I think it might be best to have them enabled to aid us newbies.

[Klepto]

I love role playing diplomacy, one of the best parts of the game IMO :D

[Immaculate]

I suggest we start now - 11 players is enough and i am impatient. Set up the game and invite us to upload pretenders.

I.

[Yskonyn]

The game will be setup tomorrow. I am going to sleep now cause I have to get up early.

[pyg]

O
Pyg: Please decide upon which nation you would like to play. Three is too much, obviously. ;)


I meant that to be an ordered list. Hinnom is my first choice.

[Bondy034]

yeah no mods except worthy heroes is okay, better go download it though... ;)

[Bondy034]

say which version of worthy heroes is the latest one? is it 1.8? its included in CBM i'm told so i've just been using that one...

[Copper8642]

-Scratch That-

[Xanatos]

For diplomatic purposes, you guys feel free to PM me (nifleheim) here, and i usually respond fairly soon, I can also give you my email or AIM address via PM if you wish. I think their listed in my profile page.

I mean..

Arg, We Giants Crush you lesser races....weak mortals have grown too troublesome.

[Stagger Lee]

My first post, no mp experience, 2 sp games not finished, had the game less than a month. Would like the last spot if still available. Have an idea for C'tis (probably a bad one, but what's a noob without bad ideas?):o

[Gandalf Parker]

Just a note:
in a game where the balance is as complicated as this one, everything is a factor. Not just national units, national spells, skills, national gem income, etc. But even something like the heroes they get. WorthyHeroes (which I totally love) can still arguably affect the vanilla balance altho probably not much. About the only "no effect" mod would be something like Streamers and Banners (altho there is some debate about the affect on players and enemies) :)

It also adds another layer of learning for new players. Along with email in and email out you might have install issues.

[Yskonyn]

I appreciate your concerns Gandalf, but I think we can all manage to install a mod. :) This is a mod I have no troubles with enabling, so its decided then; we will play vanilla game with only Worthy Heroes enabled.

Stagger Lee, welcome! You can certainly have the last spot, welcome to the fun! I'll add you to the playerlist.

Note to all:
-Please send me your email addresses via a PM which you want to use for sending and receiving turns or where I can at least contact you. Its easier for me to add you to a mailinglist if I need to contact you instead of sending 12 PMs.
Please provide me as well with a note wether you want to have this address used for in-game comms like diplomacy.
-Please check you have the latest game version installed; 3.23b
-Please check you have Worthy Heroes mod installed; v1.8 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=36670
-Please create your pretender gods and send the files to me at: captainkraak [at] hotmail.com
-DO NOT PROTECT YOUR PRETENDERS WITH A PASSWORD!!

Finally I would like your input before we start about the graphs on or off.
I believe they can be an aid for the new players to get an overview of how they're doing in relation to the other nations, but at the same time the game can focus on a 'graph race' to a point where diplomacy looses its function.
How does each of you think about the graphs?

EDIT: Game with preliminary settings created on Llamaserver.net under the name: DavidandGoliath
(Hinting at the newbies as well as vets in this game)

[Louppatient]

-Please send me your email addresses via a PM which you want to use for sending and receiving turns or where I can at least contact you.
Please provide me as well with a note wether you want to have this address used for in-game comms like diplomacy.

-Please create your pretender gods and send the files to me at: captainkraak [at] hotmail.com
-DO NOT PROTECT YOUR PRETENDERS WITH A PASSWORD!!

I thought we were using the Llamaserver ?

Except the fact that someone else may get into the game while it is accepting pretender, email adresses and pretenders are automatically taken care of by the llamaserver.

Just create the game, we will sent our pretenders to the proper address, and the game will use the email address we used to send it.

For mail, I will be using either PM or the contact email listed in my profile (email is better, because I can read / send them at work).

[Yskonyn]

Yeah sorry I didn't realize that. Upload your pretenders to the game then! Good point. It's ready to accept pretenders on Llamaserver!

[Klepto]

Pretender uploaded. Good luck everyone :)

[GrudgeBringer]

Who is playing Hinnom, it isn't on the list of players but someone turned a pretender in for it.

I see Pygg chose Fomoria instead of Hinnom (thanks Pygg for not taking Hinnom in a Noob game).

Its not listed in the forum that anyone asked for it.:confused:

[Quitti]

-Please send me your email addresses via a PM which you want to use for sending and receiving turns or where I can at least contact you. Its easier for me to add you to a mailinglist if I need to contact you instead of sending 12 PMs.

Llamaserver allows the admin to send an email to all players as well. (Admin options -> send message to players.)

[Alehkhs]

Alright, I'm now in this for good (gods... what have I gotten myself into?!)

For Diplomacy: I can be reached here by PM, or on AIM (sn: Alehkhs), where I am always signed-on, just leave a message if I don't reply.

[Immaculate]

My thanks to Quitti for suggesting this map. I never tried it before and i must say i really really like it- its a totally gorgeous map. Visually its just so pretty. If it wasn't for quitti's suggestion, i would never have found this map.

I.

[pyg]

Alright, I'm now in this for good (gods... what have I gotten myself into?!)

For Diplomacy: I can be reached here by PM, or on AIM (sn: Alehkhs), where I am always signed-on, just leave a message if I don't reply.

The real problem isn't getting into it, it's getting out of it. Two weeks from now you will probably be in three or more games. If it's really your first MP game, you will probably loose, but you will learn a LOT. You always learn more from desperate situations than comfortable ones.

I've been recently promoted to playing Fomoria and I hereby declare war on the following nations: Helheim, Ermor, Arcoscephale, and Neifelhiem (seriously?). Expect nothing less than immediate and relentless hostilities! Do your best.

[Yskonyn]

Ow hostilities right from the start! Awesome!

You guys still haven't commented on the Graphs On or Off issue yet.

[Louppatient]

I'm for graphs on.

[Immaculate]

i agree- graphs on please.

[Klepto]

I know it was me who suggested graphs off, but since this is a learning game and people seem to want graphs on I'm more than happy to go with the majority.

[Xanatos]

I vote graphs on, i prefer them off, but I agree it is something people will need to learn to use.

[Quitti]

I really recommend you guys don't pick the one version of it with preset sites though, they can unbalance the game a lot if you know what you are doing...

[rdonj]

*with=without.

[GrudgeBringer]

LOL, Your putting Arco in with Helheim, Niefelheim, and Ermor?

Us low brow Philosophers? Dang it.....NOW I have to go get those stupid Spartans involved , not to mention the Myrmedians. And all I wanted to do was sit on a rock and ask...."Why is there Air".

[Stagger Lee]

Thanks Yskonen. My C'tis pretender is up on llamaserver with nine others. Hinnom is gone, must have been a mistake. We're getting close.

Quitti, I was wondering about the map and the presets. I will play that map SP now, as it does look cool, but there is a plain version in my menu too - maybe that is the one we should play? Anybody else have experience with the map? Do preset sites rule out random ones?

Graphs are fine with me. There appears to be quite a lot of ongoing game info available on llamaserver - much more detailed than in game graphs. I'm ok with that too. This is not exactly a championship match. I want to learn.

Anyway, let's have some fun!:cheers:

[Gandalf Parker]

If you mean the Score Tables those are created by the game if you turn on the --scoredump switch. Its available in your solo games also.

[rdonj]

Thanks Yskonen. My C'tis pretender is up on llamaserver with nine others. Hinnom is gone, must have been a mistake. We're getting close.

Quitti, I was wondering about the map and the presets. I will play that map SP now, as it does look cool, but there is a plain version in my menu too - maybe that is the one we should play? Anybody else have experience with the map? Do preset sites rule out random ones?

Graphs are fine with me. There appears to be quite a lot of ongoing game info available on llamaserver - much more detailed than in game graphs. I'm ok with that too. This is not exactly a championship match. I want to learn.

Anyway, let's have some fun!:cheers:

You're playing on Shahrivar, right? There are several versions of that on the llamaserver. The first two versions of the map do not have preset starts, and have the pre-set magic sites. The third version of the map got rid of the sites and has preset starts, but only for 10 players. The fourth version (Shahrivar_SomBurn I THINK has none of those pre-set magic sites, but I don't think it has pre-set starts. Then there's another version with no sites and pre-set starts for 10 players.

I don't know what version you have, but chances are you guys will want to play Shahrivar_SomBurn for your game. Pre-set starts or the lack thereof is probably not a big deal, and some of those sites are way overpowered (for example, the 60% blood magic discount site on the top right of the map) and can be completely game changing. ...while others are barely worth noticing. Or, if you have a version that is not Shahrivar_SomBurn that you think would be better for the game, you can upload that.

And for the record, preset sites do not preculde other sites from appearing, unless the map maker decided that they do. Whether they do in that map or not I do not know for sure, and would have to examine one of the maps. But generally speaking map makers don't do that.

[Yskonyn]

I didn't realise there were that many versions.
I just selected "Shahrivar Som.map", but that can still be changed before we start.

I also downloaded the map and it contains 3 versions:
Shahrivar.map
Sharivar Som.map
NI Shahrivar Som.map

So which one is the one to pick which won't imbalance things?

Only Dark Kitty and I need to upload a Pretender and we're a GO!

[Dark Kitty]

Done, sorry for keeping you waiting ;)(couldn't design a pretender at work yesterday:angel)

[Bondy034]

hmm, i'm still not sure on the difference, NI is no independents, and i'd vote no to that. But if one of the other has pre-set magic sites, well, that's just annoying for people who haven't played it much, so i'd say no to that too

[Louppatient]

The current map is the one with pre-set magic sites.

In my opinion, the main concern would be balance, especially the 60% discount on blood magic site, if a blood nation gets it.

I can play either with or without the pre-set sites, I think the balance problems can be solved via diplomacy (but I may be wrong) :)

(BTW, I did check all sites when I saw that our map had pre-set sites, so I can list them with their effects, if we keep playing on this map version)

[Yskonyn]

If I change the map to the Shahrivar.map instead of Shahrivar Som.map will that be without pre-set sites?

[Louppatient]

No.

I just checked the map files included in the zip file :
- Neither seems to have predefined start
- All have the preset sites
- NI Shahrivar is the no independant map
- Shahrivar Som has the pre-set site already searched, while you have to search them in the two other map versions

BTW, if I read correctly the map editing document, the pre-set sites may be overwritten by random sites (if there is already 4 random sites in the province).

[Yskonyn]

Well then, IS there even a Shahrivar map without pre-set magic sites then?

[Gandalf Parker]

No.
BTW, if I read correctly the map editing document, the pre-set sites may be overwritten by random sites (if there is already 4 random sites in the province).
I havent looked at the map. But the overwrite depends on whether or not it is preceded by #land or #setland. The land one will wipe out any random assigned then do the assigns. The setland will only allow the assigns if there is still space after the randoms have done their job.

[Louppatient]

No, I don't think there is (or at least I didn't found any).

However, there is a map version without the most unbalancing sites (schools bonus and mages recruitment), here : http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43958


Gandalf :
I never used these commands, just reading the doc. It says :
If the #killfeatures command was not used and
all four site slots were already filled by randomly
determined sites during game setup, this
command will be ignored and the site won't
appear. These same limitations apply to the
#knownfeature command.

The #land sections just tells of killing its previous inhabitants, not erasing existing sites ...

(And it's #setland in this case, anyway :) )

[Gandalf Parker]

Right killfeatures. I knew it was in there someplace. (sorry, its really early here)

[Yskonyn]

No, I don't think there is (or at least I didn't found any).

However, there is a map version without the most unbalancing sites (schools bonus and mages recruitment), here : http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43958



Ah this is the SomBurn map version mentioned earlier. We'll settle for that one, great find.
Ok, people, be sure to download this map version into your map folders. :)

[Immaculate]

So far so good. We only need one more player's diety:


Game: DavidandGoliath
Early Age, max 12 players
Players so far: 11

Map: Shahrivar_SomBurn
Mods: Worthy Heroes 1.8

Nations joined so far:
Ermor
Pangaea
Tir na n'Og
Helheim
C'tis
Fomoria
T'ien Ch'i
Ulm
Niefelheim
Arcoscephale
Mictlan


which means we only need:


3) Yskonyn - Caelum

[Yskonyn]

True, after I have confirmed a few things we will go. Probably in a few hours!

[Quitti]

Quitti, I was wondering about the map and the presets. I will play that map SP now, as it does look cool, but there is a plain version in my menu too - maybe that is the one we should play? Anybody else have experience with the map? Do preset sites rule out random ones?

I know this was already answered - but there's a version without the preset sites on the llamaserver (Shahrivar 10 starts) - but like the name says, it has preset starting points for 10 players (quite well balanced too). But you'll definitely want a map without the sites, or at least the recruit/schoolbonus sites preset. They will simply break the game by being in places everyone knows about them. If the SomBurn version doesn't have preset sites, it's good to go.

[Klepto]

I'm very much against pre-set sites in any form. Perhaps we should play a different map altogether? Having said that I don't want to throw a spanner in the works when the game is so close to starting.

[Stagger Lee]

I now have four versions of Shahrivar in my menu - the newest says rebalanced for MP. Maybe bumping random sites up to 55 or 60 will ensure that the presets are just visually appropriate, and nothing more.

[Xanatos]

if anyone wants to talk strategies or bounce ideas around, I'm down for that, since this is after all a learning experience. Also interested in setting up diplomatic relations

[Xanatos]

so who we waitin on?

[Immaculate]

Yskonyn

[Yskonyn]

Ok people, sorry for the delay, but there were a few things I needed to get sorted. Expect the game to kick off this afternoon (once I get to my game pc)! (to cater for timezones: this afternoon means about 3 - 8 hrs from now)

[Yskonyn]

Ok gents! The game has started. Let Diplomacy flow and be sure to enjoy the game.
Again I would like to stress that this is supposed to be a NEWBIE LEARNING game, so go easy on those who haven't got much experience yet (that includes me! ;) )!
It's nice if you can show how powerful you can be and squash players early on, but that's not the purpose of this game.
Also, feel free to have an 'open hand' attitude and discuss tactics or problems with your empire management here so everyone can learn from it.

Above all; HAVE FUN!

[Xanatos]

strangely, the map link provided for shahrivar by the llama server is not working for me, i went to it, downloaded the maps, but the game crashes and says no maps? They are in my folder and everything.

it still gives me map not found errors.

[Xanatos]

nevermind, apparently it just needed the _ between shahrivar and som.

[Xanatos]

OK so for Nifleheim, I started, my first thing is to set my taxes to 150 and my main group to patrol, this will lose me some population but give me a big headstart, i need lots of gold to buy them giants.

I also made my Scout a Prophet, and renamed him so I could remember who he is:) (i like to rename things so i know what they are, but so everyone else doesnt)

[GrudgeBringer]

Map isn't working for me either...

[Louppatient]

The map image file should be "Shahrivar_Som.tga". If you happen to have the map file without the underscore, just rename or copy it with the appropriate name.
The map file should be "Sharivar_SomBurn.map", you should have dowloaded it from this forum (and it should have come with the image file with the underscore).

[Xanatos]

it worked for me after only adding the _

[Immaculate]

OK so for Nifleheim, I started, my first thing is to set my taxes to 150 and my main group to patrol, this will lose me some population but give me a big headstart, i need lots of gold to buy them giants.

I also made my Scout a Prophet, and renamed him so I could remember who he is:) (i like to rename things so i know what they are, but so everyone else doesnt)


Yup- pretty similar over here. But 150 is 'the safe side'; for those new players out there, sometimes early cash is VERY important and having a bit of unrest (that can be patrolled down later on), you can go as high as 200%. Sometimes somewhere between 150 and 200 is better. Especially if you have mounted or flying troops (like caelum- they can patrol really good with their flying starting units and 190% is prety safe for them) (please try this out in solo play before you apply it here if you haven't played with this strategy before).

Also remember that there are mecenaries available. I won't say more on the subject but its easy to overlook them when you are new and they can really change the way you play your nation (especially in the early game).

[Yskonyn]

I appreciate the feedback, guys. Raising the tax levels is a common practise early on to get a few bucks quickly?
Are there other means to keep your tabs on the population early game than patrolling?

[Louppatient]

The only other mean I know of is lowering taxes, but that's not interesting here :) (it is when blood hunting, though).

As for taxes, I do not raise them at start with Tir na n'Og ... I do not have to pay for giants or sacred cavalry, so there's no need to kill off population early for me :angel

[Alehkhs]

Okay, just received the file, will be screwing up my first move shortly.

[pfloom]

Can I request an extra four hours on the next turn? I've put in for turn two already, but I'm moving back home for the summer holidays tomorrow, and I'm thinking if turn two goes off slightly early (due to the auto-resolve), then I mightn't be able to play my third turn before the time limit kicks in.


And as far as first turn taxing goes - I set mine to 170, but then only managed to bring unrest down to 6 by patrolling. Not sure how much that affects subsequent earnings from tax, but it seemed to be reduced from last turn by 5-10%.

[Bondy034]

hmm curious i set mine to 200 and reduced unrest to 0 by turn 2...

[Quitti]

Every nation has a different starting army. I think the unit speed and if it's flying affect the amount of unrest they can reduce per turn, and knowing dominions, I'll bet that there's some random number generator also smashed in there somewhere in generating or reducing unrest.

[Yskonyn]

What happens when a user hasn't provided a turn in the 24h limit Llama has defined, while all others have submitted. Will the server send a message or will it kick the player?
I have no problems raising the time limit for a few hours next turn for 1 turn only, but if the system waits anyway I dont have to change anything.

[Klepto]

The turn proceeds without orders for those players who haven't got their turn in in time, so their armies won't move, they won't recruit units etc.

[pyg]

Turkey-day break? I will be unable to do turns, due to lack of computer and net access, the 24-27 of this month. Hopefully we can all just have a holiday break, but if not I can find a sub.

I guess it was a little unclear that my declaration of war was directed specifically at experienced players in order to disadvantage myself and otherwise level the playing field.

I appreciate the feedback, guys. Raising the tax levels is a common practise early on to get a few bucks quickly?
Are there other means to keep your tabs on the population early game than patrolling?

For a few nations (Hinnom and Niefelheim) you can 1st turn/blind attack with the starting army most of the time and a dozen giants aren't that great at patrolling.

I sort of thought I would find something about this subject linked from The Strategy Index (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=38122). This is an awesome reference if everyone isn't already aware of it.

[Yskonyn]

Ok all players, please send in a vote about what to do in the 24th-27th... Do we want Pyg to find a sub or do we put the game on ice for three days?

I have no problems with a break BUT I don't want to break this game up too often either because of the risk of people bailing out of impatience...

I will up the turn limit for the next turn to 32 hrs to accomodate pfloom. After those 32 hrs it goes back to 24hrs again.

[Xanatos]

I vote for a sub, for multiple reasons, Pyg seems to consider himself somewhat more experienced, which means this may not be the best game for him, and of course, hes declared war on me:P But mainly because a 3 day pause will not only ruin my train of thought (ill forget what i was doing) but I also fear that people will lose interest in it and quit.

[Stagger Lee]

If I ally myself with pyg here, does that mean I'm also at war with Helheim, Ermor, Arco, & Neifelheim? :sick:

Oh well, I do like turkey with all the trimmings.

Seriously though, an extension of any length will help me over the holiday too.

[Yskonyn]

If I ally myself with pyg here, does that mean I'm also at war with Helheim, Ermor, Arco, & Neifelheim? :sick:


I would say yes. Allies are seen as 'one group' by enemies. At least in my world. ;)

[GrudgeBringer]

First, there may come a time that your computer or Internet connection goes down due to winter storms etc. While we have to remember that Thanksgiving is an American holiday and we have friends on here from all over the world, I can't see any of us saying NO to a reasonable extension for a holiday in any of our countries.

I say we give Pyg and ourselves that extension as a courtesy to ourselves. I am MORE concerned with the lengthy extension we are comtemplating around Christmas. Its on a Friday and a reasonable Thursday to Monday extension sounds good.

However, from what I have read we are thinking of a series of extensions that could go on for 2 to 3 weeks during that time.
I think your going to find out that some players that aren't doing so well will disappear leaving their nations AI and throw the game out of balance.

To 'Stagger',

Just because Pyg has said he declares war on everyone that has more than a small amount of expieriance doesn't mean 'we the declared upon' are a coalition' OR that as soon as he see one of the supposed enemy he is going to attack them.

Pyg is an excellent player, but he is taking on some heavy hitter nations (except poor 'ol' Arco of course). If you are becoming an ally with Pyg and expecting this to become a world war, you are mistaken and will become a potential enemy of 4 or 5 nations. Better to form a Nap with him and see where you are at the time.

We are off to a good start guys and our Fearless Leader and Admin is doing a GREAT job so far.

Just my opinion of course gentlemen:up:

[GrudgeBringer]

Also...The first page lists the players and the nations thry are playing....

Argatha and Ryleh arn't listed. WHO is playing these respective nations?

Its hard to have Diplomacy if we don't know who they are.

PM me if you want or just post on here.

[Stagger Lee]

:doh: My apologies to all, but I was just trying to voice my support for a short break over Thanksgiving. My wife doesn't get my sense of humor either. I am not offering an in-game alliance with anyone at this time. I will choose my words more carefully in the future.

[Immaculate]

Also...The first page lists the players and the nations thry are playing....

Argatha and Ryleh arn't listed. WHO is playing these respective nations?

Its hard to have Diplomacy if we don't know who they are.

PM me if you want or just post on here.


Crazy pills?

[rdonj]

:doh: My apologies to all, but I was just trying to voice my support for a short break over Thanksgiving. My wife doesn't get my sense of humor either. I am not offering an in-game alliance with anyone at this time. I will choose my words more carefully in the future.

I got it ;)

[GrudgeBringer]

Arghhhhhhhhh....

Wrong game NO ARGATHA NO RYLEH in here:doh:

[Yskonyn]

You had me worried there, Grudge... I thought you were finding evidence of a large scale conspiracy! :D Thanks for the kudos, Grudge.
I am trying my best here. :angel

I have no objections to an extention of turn time, as I said above. But we should try to avoid having too many breaks as it will make people forget what they were doing. I am one of those as well.

[Immaculate]

Since this is supposed to be a learning experience, i will share what i just learned in another Newbie game i am playing (Casual EA for busy schedules).

Namely: You can tell a lot about the graphs in the nation statistics.

A few things are suggested (though i could be wrong).

Firstly, TirN'Nog has an awake pretender and is using it to expand. How do i know this? Well, their dominion is way above anyone else's (thus an awake pretender with a strong dominion) and they have 3 provinces instead of 2 like most other players.

Next: Ermor lost its first expansion party. Their number of provinces stayed at 1 but their army size was reduced dramatically. This suggests that the independents (or other player-nation) that they attacked had a stronger army then they expected .


Normally i wouldn't say this sort of stuff but its supposed to be a learning experience and so i thought i would share.

There is more stuff hidden in those stats that can be interpreted and i encourage you to give it a try.

[Klepto]

Next: Ermor lost its first expansion party. Their number of provinces stayed at 1 but their army size was reduced dramatically. This suggests that the independents (or other player-nation) that they attacked had a stronger army then they expected .

See, I told you I'm terrible at this ;)

It's a set-back, I was being ambitious and yes, I came up against a stronger force than I expected. It's not as big a problem as it might have been but I'll be forced to use gladiators which will delay the building of my second fort.

[Xanatos]

I can say with relish that anyone who allies pyg will become an enemy of Nifleheim. And I hope hes my neighbor. =)

[Louppatient]

Firstly, TirN'Nog has an awake pretender and is using it to expand. How do i know this? Well, their dominion is way above anyone else's (thus an awake pretender with a strong dominion) and they have 3 provinces instead of 2 like most other players.


True.
You can look at research too : first turn research is often an awake pretender (there's exceptions of course, like Sauromatia which starts with a mage, but most nations starts with a regular commander and a scout).

(And high dominion is important for Awe, which is important in early SC pretenders)

[Stagger Lee]

I can say with relish that anyone who allies pyg will become an enemy of Nifleheim. And I hope hes my neighbor. =)

:hide: I am already writing my first AAR, tentatively titled "Consequences Shmoncequences - What Harm Could A Little Joke Do?"

[Yskonyn]

Lol! :)

[pfloom]

Thanks for the delay, got my turn off now.

[pfloom]

I only just figured out that unlike the Shahrivar I'd been testing on, this one had recruitable independents.

[Immaculate]

So, are lots of people bumping borders? Without saying who i've bumped borders with, i've already been forced into some early diplomacy due to the location of my capital vis-a-vis another player's capital.

[Alehkhs]

So, are lots of people bumping borders? Without saying who i've bumped borders with, i've already been forced into some early diplomacy due to the location of my capital vis-a-vis another player's capital.

Yea, scouts have been reporting back national forces along Ulm's borders...


Again, for diplomacy, I can be found on AIM (preferred) as 'Alehkhs,' or at athavens [at] gmail.com, or just PM's on these forums.

[Stagger Lee]

Again, for diplomacy, I can be found on AIM (preferred) as 'Alehkhs,' or at athavens [at] gmail.com, or just PM's on these forums.

To receive PM's on this forum, you have to enable it in your profile.

And yes, I have encountered a neighbor or two. We will soon see if there is anything to this diplomacy of which so many of you speak.

Are we on 24h turns anymore? Seems longer.

Did we ever get a resolution on Pyg's request for time next week. I will be taking the wife and kids to my dad's, and will likely not be available from Wed PM - Fri PM. It is a big holiday here in the states. They say Wed night is the single biggest bar night of the year.:beer:

[Louppatient]

We are on 36 hours.

I don't mind a longer time for this next week.

[Alehkhs]

To receive PM's on this forum, you have to enable it in your profile.


Indeed, I've fixed that now. Thank you.

[pfloom]

Are you sure you've fixed it?

[Yskonyn]

I am neighbours with other empires as well, so it seems. Negotiations have been started. (Yes you know who you are! :angel).

As far as the turn cycle. It's still set on 36H at the moment, because I forgot to set it back. After this turn it will go back to 24H as agreed and if you guys do not object.
However, next week we will have Stagger Lee unavailable for three days.
I guess its best that you look for a sub and tell him what to do in those three days so you can continue when you're back while the game can still progress.

So far things run quite smoothly I think!
I am having a lot of fun, although I have no clue as to what I am doing gets me anywhere. :eek:

[Immaculate]

I have family visiting from that wednesday until sunday and would also request that we put the game on hiatus but if its only a few of us celebrating turkey-day, then i can try and find a sub too.

[Yskonyn]

Assuming everyone would agree; How long should this hiatus be? 3 days? Can I pause the game on LLama?

[Immaculate]

you just set the turn timer to 72 hours (or something similar) instead of 36 or 24 then set it back. there's probably another way but that should do it.

[Quitti]

Admin options -> Postpone hosting. Self-explanatory :)

[Stagger Lee]

Did Pangaea get his turn in?

[Bondy034]

no. no i didn't. Sigh, computer/internet issues i'm afraid, but everything should be set now. Apologies (though i guess i'm the one that'll notice most...)

[Immaculate]

Pfoom- i sent you a couple PMs but i am not sure you have your setting set to accept them. Could you please PM me or e-mail me at philgob (at) hotmail (dot) com please? I would like to perform some diplomacy with you.

[Stagger Lee]

Just glad you're still with us:)

Does anyone know if PMs sent can be saved? I think they should be in my sent items folder, but it's empty. I would really like to be able to go back and see what I actually said to someone, and not rely on what I think I said.

[Quitti]

If you want to have a sent mail to be saved, you'll have to tick the "save a copy of this mail to the sent mail folder" when sending a PM. I don't know if it can be defaulted to yes, but I rarely keep backups of what I've sent to others, since my mail folder is full to the brim anyway (actually, time to clean it up again I suppose...)

[Xanatos]

can you force hosting? the llamaserver is saying all 2h turns received, but its not going to host for hours yet..for whatever reason.

[Yskonyn]

Done. Turn should be underway in the next 5 mins.
Xanatos, you haven't replied on my diplo yet. Is that on purpose or didnt you get the msg at all?

[Stagger Lee]

Thanks Ys, I was wondering what was up there too.

[Alehkhs]

Well, I have a problem/bug of some sort:

Whenever I take a turn, it doesn't update my 2h file.

Instead, I have to rename my D&G folder to 'DavidandGoliath2,' then move the .trn file to a new 'DavidandGoliath' folder and redo my whole turn. Only then will it create a new .2h file.

Does anyone know this problem?

[Stagger Lee]

To receive PM's on this forum, you have to enable it in your profile.


Indeed, I've fixed that now. Thank you.

It still says you are not accepting PMs

[Alehkhs]

To receive PM's on this forum, you have to enable it in your profile.


Indeed, I've fixed that now. Thank you.

It still says you are not accepting PMs

hmmm... this is peculiar.

*changes yet more settings*

Try again?

[pfloom]

Regarding the 2h files problem; if you are using linux or OSX, I'd check that you've got the correct permissions in the folder (I don't honestly know how far Windows has an equivalent permissions system). Also, have you tried deleting the old 2h file before you take your turn? Do you "save & quit" or "end turn" to save your game?

I haven't encountered this issue.

About PM's - try sending someone a PM. Once that's successfull accomplished, you should be able to receive them.

[Yskonyn]

Status report Caelum:

As everyone can see our empire still has only a few provinces and I find it hard to set myself some priorities in getting the Empire off the ground.
My lands are surrounded by quite large bands of Independents. After having lost half of my initial army to a group of bandits I have become hesitant to attack any others, but this hampers my expansion greatly.
Furthermore Caelum is hampered by a bottleneck along the river; the only way to trek NE is to cross the bridge in my SW province.

Our soldiers are tiny. They are size three and this fact alone hampers my infantry, so I've resorted to getting War Mammoths ready. We are now looking for a good balance to setup a raiding party to squash the rebels...

Trade is pogression and we've made contact with a few other empires.

[Immaculate]

Have we decided what we will be doing over thanksgiving? I would like to just ask for an extension. I know that grudgebringer also mentioned he would appreciate one (in another thread). Can we get the moderator to make a ruling on whether we will need to find subs or whether we can take a 4-day break?

I would really appreciate a break for the holiday? Or at least put the hosting on a much larger time scale and IF i can play, i will but if i cannot, i won't have to worrying about a series of stales.

[GrudgeBringer]

I think if we can get a turn in Weds (if that works) then we should just extend to Monday (give everyone a chance to get bqck in town and do the next turn).

There are too many people who have seconded and third ect wanting an extension that we need to put it in stone...soon.

I'm sure he will figure something out quickly.:up:

[Yskonyn]

Just for my record, when is Thanksgiving? Coming wednesday? We don't have that here.
If so I suggest we turn in this turn and hopefully the next, then we freeze until monday.
But please, everyone, promise you will not bail out! ;) *sad manipulative face*

It will give me some time to sink my teeth in the manual properly, as well.
Also does it give me time to devise a plan to bring each and everyone of you down eventually. *chuckles*

[Immaculate]

Thursday November 26th to 29th inclusive.

If you put the turn lengths to 100 hours or something silly in the next few days that would be awesome (and return them to whatever they are afterwards). That way if we can get our turns in, we can progress but if we can't, we don't stale.

Thanks.

[Louppatient]

Strange ... I submitted my turn ( 8 ), got the confirmation mail from the Llamaserver twenty minutes ago, but this is not displayed on the web page ... The turn number has changed to 9, though ...

I hope it will get properly processed ...

Edit : It seems to have processed. I'm a bit surprised that Niefelheim has already submitted his turn, while I have'nt even received mine from the server, though :)

[Yskonyn]

Good to hear Louppatient. If you run into trouble, let me know and I'll see if it can be fixed.

Ok people, its time to enter hibernation. ;) Turn limit has been upped to 100hrs for the time being.
This does NOT mean the game is frozen, it will still host after 100 hours if you didn't send in your turn, but hopefully it allows ample time for everyone to play their turn in these busy days.

Have a GREAT Thanksgiving!

[Stagger Lee]

If you want to have a sent mail to be saved, you'll have to tick the "save a copy of this mail to the sent mail folder" when sending a PM. I don't know if it can be defaulted to yes, but I rarely keep backups of what I've sent to others, since my mail folder is full to the brim anyway (actually, time to clean it up again I suppose...)

You know, I thought I was doing that. When you preview it removes the check though. Got it now.

If anyone saved my first diplo messages and can forward them back to me, I'd appreciate it. I don't know if I'll try a real AAR or not, but if I do it will help.

I also appreciate the relaxed schedule this week. I will get in as many turns as possible, but it's nice not to have to worry about it

[Immaculate]

IC
Proud and mighty Helheim, guardians of the gates of tartarus, those who have hung their mortal selves so that they might know the secrets of death itself wish to know the strength and hidden secrets of the earth itself.
Should you have the very essence of the earth (earth gems), we would trade for them.

OOC

We are trading for earth gems. We can provide air, death and nature gems.

Immac.

[Xanatos]

Caelum im not very familiar with your units, but I do know many of them are flying, if not all. If that's so, you shouldn't need to worry about crossing any bridges or be bound by a river. Just fly over it, you can pick and choose the weakest indies in the area because you can fly all over the place.

[pfloom]

I found with MA Caelum, mammoths were about their most effective expansion unit (backed up by archers); also, try recruiting non-flyers to hold the line, as the flyers tend to charge into combat and then all die. Not sure what units EA has.

If you're fighting lots of archers, on the other hand, flyers are extremely useful.

Take all this with a grain of salt; I'm not a very experienced player.

[Quitti]

Caelum can jump around heavily defended provinces if he has information where the weak indies are, and that requires scouts, which are not very plenty in the start :) Mammoths are the best bet for Caelum imo for expansion, few of them combined with those prec12 archers is an useful expansion party like pfloom said, while a bit expensive. Still, for some nations some sacred force for expansion will cost more per expansion party.

[Bondy034]

okay so i figure i need to start looking for a sub for the next few weeks... any ideas on how to go about doing that anyone?

[Stretch]

Caelum's should do well with mammoths against any kind of armored indies. Against barbarians it can do pretty well with mammoths, or massed archers (enough to kill the barbarians before they get too close). The best advice to fully understand the capabilities of your national units is to run the first 10 turns of an expansion in single player (to determine how fast you can expand with a given set of strategies).

Also keep in mind that you can use a few sacrificial units to protect your important units from the initial attack of a group of enemies. You can put a high protection unit with a shield out in front to catch archer arrows, or put a group of units in front with orders "guard commander", and your commander in the back of your formation with orders "hold x5, stay behind troops" and the enemy force might chase it into the jaws of a trap while your flanking units crush them from both sides.

When testing out expansion strategies for Caelum, remember that you will want to start buying eagle kings every turn as soon as possible. Once you research some evocation magic (culminating in having Storm, Thunder Strike, Summon Storm Power available) you will see why!

[Quitti]

okay so i figure i need to start looking for a sub for the next few weeks... any ideas on how to go about doing that anyone?

You can post a new thread here or post in the looking for players -sticky thread in the top of the multiplayer area, or if you know someone who might be willing to sub or someone you trust, you can ask them. Do keep in mind that they can't be any of the players of this game due cdkey errors and the balance issues it'd bring.

[Xanatos]

did the time per turn get turned back to 24 hours?

[Yskonyn]

Yes it will come back to 24hrs this evening.
Thanks for all the tips about Caelum. Mammoths do seem to do a nice job, but they also bind the whole army to using bridges. There does not seem to be a flying transport unit in our ranks *giggle*.

I think I have the smallest empire of everyone atm, but I find it hard to judge wether my army will be strong enough to take on a given army of indepedents.
Is there soms rule of thumb you guys use?

[Louppatient]

Start a test game (with two human players) and try to expand with your planned expansion army, then watch the battles ...

[Bondy034]

hmm so maybe i picked a bad time to start looking for a sub. But i'm not gonna be able to send in any more turns from tomorrow, can you guys appoint a sub for me without me? don't know what to do. sorry about this...

[Bondy034]

okay received a pm from one "thejeff" who is willing to fill in. for me just so you all know

[Stagger Lee]

Thanks Bondy. See you in a few weeks (if I'm still in it).

Thanks and welcome to thejeff. We noobs are in your debt.

[GrudgeBringer]

Welcome Jeff and thanks:up:

[Yskonyn]

Thanks thejeff! You have been set to active, right now! Welcome!

Only the empire of Ulm needs to put in his turn. They have been idle for a long time. I will send you a pvt msg as well, but turn limit will come down to 24 hrs again to speed things up.
So better get that turn in! :)

[pfloom]

So, if it's not a state secret - who did Mictlan pick a fight with?

[Dark Kitty]

Actually I sent a peace proposal to my closest neighbor, which happened to be Niefelheim and to disagree ^_^'

[Immaculate]

Thanks thejeff! You have been set to active, right now! Welcome!

Only the empire of Ulm needs to put in his turn. They have been idle for a long time. I will send you a pvt msg as well, but turn limit will come down to 24 hrs again to speed things up.
So better get that turn in! :)

24h/turn may be too fast for me on some nights. if we can make it 48h or 50h that would be best. Most of the time its not a problem but some nights i have to work late and then i have a family to take care of, baby to bath and put to bed, etc.

it would be helpful if we didn't move this quickly. having said that, many times there will be no problem and i will be able to get a turn in quickly.

i.

[Stagger Lee]

I'm ok with allowing for more time. Quickhost is still on and we can still do most turns in the same amount of time.

Immaculate, how old is the baby? My daughter is 3 1/2 and my son will be 2 on friday. Any guesses why I only just found this game that's been out for years?

[Immaculate]

Congrats man,

Fatherhood is a lot of fun. Mine had coffee for the first time yesterday morning and said 'mmmmmm....' and rubbed her tummy. Now thats daddy's little girl!

(oh, she will be 2 in 12 days)...

yeah, took me awhile to find this game too...

[GrudgeBringer]

I think we all have responsibilities that need to be addressed as life DOES get in the way.

I also think that 36 hours quick host would fill the bill with the occasional extension or you will start having players losing interest at this stage.

You might look around at the numerous 'Casual games" that start out 49 ours and go up from there in the future, might fit your lifestyle better. I remember (WOW has it been that long ago)when I had small children and if your sharing responsibilities (and should be), it really can be a chore just to stay awake long enough to give the turn its due.

My kids are grown and my youngest Grandchild is 8 and oldest is 20. (no I'm not that old, I had the fortune, or misfortune depending on how you look at it) of starting while I was just in my first year in college.

So remember that when you guys are beating up on an old man...respect your elders!!:p

[Immaculate]

Okay then, can we extend the current turn to friday night late?

Thanks,
I.

[Xanatos]

Just an update: Mictlan, Fomoria, and Ctis apparently have allied against me, nifleheim, and I was spanking Mictlan about to take his capital/last province. I am now on the defensive certainly, I know Pyg (fomoria) declared war on many of you as well as me before the game even started, if your interested in helping me, and seeing him fail his goal of breaking me, nows the time to act.

Xanatos (At) triad (dot) rr (dot) com

I look forward to hearing from you.

[pyg]

...The enemies of Fomoria are legion and powerful but they cannot withstand the Chosen and the righteous converts. The evil northern giants shall be the first to perish...


--excerpted from Thus Spake Puppet: Divine Servant of Vano

[Xanatos]

I'm far from perishing:) I am about to teach your cold blooded friend the cost of fighting in the snow.

Enemies of Fomoria, Unite with us.

[thejeff]

My adviser's been telling me I need to make some kind of formal announcement. I don't really see the point, but it's hard to say no to Dryad when they bat their eyes like that... Anyway, here goes:
<Ahem>
With the temporary departure of our lord Bondy034, I have been placed in charge of Pangaea until his return. All agreements and deals will remain in force, assuming anyone bothered to tell me about them. Pangaea wishes nothing more than peace for all nations... Oh come on, no one's going to believe that, or care. They're crazy out there...um...sorry about that... anyway where was I? Right, the important part: All ambassadors and other dignitaries are invited to the small party celebrating my appointment. It's scheduled for...well, it's pretty much been ongoing since the boss left. Come by the palace gardens anytime.

The (temporary) Reveler in Chief

[GrudgeBringer]

FREE EATS + PANGEAN WINE and all those WOMEN:eek:.....The Arco emissaire is on his way!!!!!!!;)

[Yskonyn]

I am sorry I missed the turn time request earlier. Time has now gone up to 36 hours if that suits everyone better.

[Yskonyn]

Status report:

Due to the nature of my work I run the risk of getting called to do a rush job. This is the case right now and I will be abroad for 3 days. I will be able to play a turn tomorrow, but then I will be gone for 3 days. I would like to opt for a 100hrs turn interval to accommodate, because finding a sub might be too hard on such a short notice. Does anyone object?

[Louppatient]

No problem for me

[pfloom]

No objection here.

[Stagger Lee]

No objection. Good luck.

[Klepto]

Sure, no problem :)

[GrudgeBringer]

Fine here:up:

[Dark Kitty]

No problem either ;)

[Yskonyn]

Great, thanks guys!
I have submitted this turn and will wait to see till the end of the day if we can squeeze another one through.

[pfloom]

Ok, so I'm going to need a sub at least from December 24 until January 17th, should I begin advertising now?

[Yskonyn]

Yeah it might be best to start your advertisement campaign. :) Never know when someone will bite.

I am back so I suggest we go ahead full steam! :)

[Bondy034]

okay, i'm afraid i'm going to be out of action for a bit longer as i no longer have a home internet connection... in fact, i might just have to let thejeff take over for me if he wants to, cause i don't know when i'll be able to have regular internet access again this side of february... Apologies to you all, i'll keep an eye out after feb maybe i can play another game then. God bless

[thejeff]

I guess I can, though I didn't really want another full game right now.

[pfloom]

In other news, T'ien Ch'i is trading for earth gems. We have many gems of other types, and we're also able to forge many items.

[thejeff]

Can I get another 12 hours for this turn?
I'll have time tomorrow, but nothing tonight.

Thanks

[Agusti]

I could sub pfoom.

Waiting news. I have already posted in the "seeking players thread".

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41304&page=18

[Yskonyn]

I missed the request, sorry.
And the game has already hosted the new turn.

here's what I can do: roll back the turn so we play that one over again and thejeff has chance to submit.
So people, the next turn will be a RE-DO of a turn. Please keep that in mind. We take a tiny step back in time and continue from there.

Agusti, I am fine with it as long as you and pfloom can settle things. That's up to you two.

[thejeff]

Sorry about the trouble everyone.

Having been through this before, your old orders are still on the llamaserver. If you'd submitted a turn, there's no need to send another one in.

My turn is in, so in theory Yskonyn could force host now and everyone should have orders in.

It's considered bad form to change your orders based on the results of the redone turn.

[Yskonyn]

I suspect there might be some angry mobs going on here now that I have rolled back. My appologies to all. I should have consulted with everyone here before I did it, but I thought i would be able to choose how to proceed anyway, so:
-Just roll back the turn to enable Jeff to get in. OR
-Continue to old game if this wasn't neccessary and people would have serious problems with rolling back.

Apparently this doesnt work like that and I hereby appologise for problems that might have rised with this rollback. Don't forget I am new to all this and while I am trying my best, errors happen.
Please be a sport an do not alter your orders because now you know the outcome of a possible battle fought previously. Just resub like you did. You wouldn't have the chance anyway when we did not roll back.

In future I will MAKE SURE I run things through you guys first. *bows*.
Please be a sport and continue like you did previously.

:)

[GrudgeBringer]

I think what thejeff suggested is the solution...on your honor, don't anyone send in a turn and let the admin keep the same turn.

You might have to check with thejeff to figure it out but It CAN be done and considering the fighting that just went on, It will unbalance the game if you change your orders.:sick:

[thejeff]

Unfortunately, it looks like enough people have resubmitted turns already that the cat is out of the bag.

[GrudgeBringer]

Those that have resubmitted...if you havn't moved in the same way, then redo your turn and submit it. Minor things will be missed , but an attack or retreat will unbalance the game and may destroy it if you don't carry out the same turns (besides you may have a different outcome this time with the same turn)

This is on your honor and anybody that feels that they have been screwed because of another player (NOT an event where you didn't get gold or something) needs to go to the forum and lets straighten it out.

If anyone feels that its ok to just do whatever you want....let your opinion be known and why. I think we can all can figure out who stands to benifit the most from not reproducing the turn exactly and deal with it.

Speak up folks and let us know if you submitted it the same...:sick:

[Stagger Lee]

Haven't seen the turn yet. Something went right, something went wrong. This much I can tell from llamaserver. I will not redo the turn when I get home.

Let me just make sure I understand. If I do nothing, the game will use the last turn I sent in. When I get home I will look at the turn, whistle a tune and wait for the real turn to come in the mail? :re:

A learning experience it will be! :smirk:

[Immaculate]

If we want to resubmit the same turn exactly the same do we have to do anything or just wait for the turn to process?

NINJAED BY STAGGER- i guess i had the same question.

[thejeff]

To quote the llamaserver:
Read this next bit carefully. I seem to be having difficulties explaining it coherently:

Note that once the game is rolled back, it will appear that the game is waiting for 2h files from all players. However, the 2h files from last time the turn was played will in fact be there, and will be used if the game hosts without them being overwritten. This can be useful; often, a game is rehosted in order for only one or two players to retake their turns, while everyone else is expected to make no changes. The game admin can therefore wait till just those players have submitted, and then force hosting. None of the other players will stale (assuming they actually submitted a 2h file last time the turn was played).

I hope all that makes sense!

I've seen it work. There is no need to resubmit a turn. It will use the same 2h file you sent it before.

[thejeff]

If you HAVE already sent in a turn that you need to redo to duplicate the original, the easiest thing to do is just pull the old .2h file from your Sent Email folder and send the same file again. (Assuming your email client saves copies of sent email.)

[Immaculate]

Then Y, please just force host right away. Everyone has their turns in right? either from last turn like they were supposed to or a new one for thejeff who missed his turn.

[Yskonyn]

Ok it seems its safe to force host then.
I appreciate your support here. Expect the turn to come through soon!

[Klepto]

Unfortunately, it looks like enough people have resubmitted turns already that the cat is out of the bag.
Mine was just a re-send of the same turn, I didn't even open the client, I didn't know the server kept the turns :)

[GrudgeBringer]

The POINT being tha that those that DID resbmit there turns must make the same moves for it to work.

I for one am not going to open up the file until we either try and force host it OR we decide its undoable.

[GrudgeBringer]

well, it has almost been an hour and no new turn has come thru, so I think tha we give thejeff the password and see if he can doo any magic.

[thejeff]

There's no magic to do. Just tell the llamaserver to force hosting now.
It'll run with whatever turns it has.

I only know about this because we had a horrible fuss over a rehosting over in MistsOfTime, that led to a player quitting in protest and almost derailed the game.

[Stagger Lee]

Ys, did you try force hosting? If I have to send in a turn I can. :wave:

[Stagger Lee]

Assuming this gets worked out to everyone's satisfaction, the next order of business should probably be Christmas. I don't foresee at this point needing a large block of time, but would like a relaxed hosting schedule during the holidays. And I would not object to any request for more time over the next couple of weeks.

See? I CAN do this without declaring war on my neighbors! :D

[Yskonyn]

I forced hosting. but for some reason it did not send anything...
I am reluctant to do it again, especially as its going to host in 2 hours anyway. Just sit tight and it will come through. (I hope)

[GrudgeBringer]

I have been asked to be a backup ADMIN because I check the forums 2 to 4 times a day.

If you have any questions, extension requests, etc...

Post them in the forum and one of us will see it.

This will ensure that we won't miss another extension request or a problem that could harm the game.:up:

[GrudgeBringer]

Strange...

I have not received turn 22 (the new turn after the redo turn),

but Fomoria has already done his turn and sent it in.

Has everyone else received their turns?:confused:

[Immaculate]

i JUST got my turn.

[Louppatient]

Happened to me recently ... Just ask for the turn to be resend to you (I got mine 40 minutes ago).

[Stagger Lee]

Just looked at mine quickly. Will be able to look closer later, but it seems like nothing significant changed. :up:

[pyg]

Treachery! Our former allies have fallen upon us in the night. Fear not Fomorians, an angel of death shall soon rise from the sea to devour the barbarians...


--excerpted from Epistle to Angry at Niefelheim by Puppet: Divine Servant of Vano

[Immaculate]

ummm... what does that mean OOC?

[Klepto]

ummm... what does that mean OOC?
Out of character

[thejeff]

I think the question was "OOC, what does the previous post mean?"

To which I can answer:
I don't have a clue.

[pyg]

OOC translation: "Those backstabbing Ulmish bastards have chosen to end their relationship with us by sneak attacking and sieging our capital. They are going to pay!"

[Xanatos]

oh my..

[pfloom]

Ok, I'm handing over to the sub - Agusti. I'd like to make this a permanent swap. I've sent a request to the admins via PM.

Could I also request a 12 hour delay so Agusti has a bit more time to work out what's going on & get his turn in?

[GrudgeBringer]

Turn time has been extended 12 hours for the new player to look over his position.


The only info I have is his E-mail address and I have no information yet as to his vetern status or even his name.

haplo may be his name, part of his name, or not even close to his name. The only info Pfloom gave me was an e-mail address.

Thanks Pfloom for not goig AI and finding a sub from ALL of us.

Welcome new T'ien Ch'i Player, if you could give us a little info (for diplomatic puposes if nothing else) on yourself we would appreciate it:up:

[GrudgeBringer]

It seems I was mistaken...Agusti is the new players name...

WELCOME AGUSTI!!!:D

[pfloom]

Good luck to Agusti, and everyone else.

I kind of wish I'd declared war on somebody...but too late this time!

[Immaculate]

Agusti- you sent me an e-mail but it won't let me reply because of your settings. Please just e-mail me directly at philgob (at) hotmail (dot) com and i'll be able to reply directly to you.

Thanks.

[Immaculate]

Agust-i got it figured out- ignore that last message- stupid edit button.

[Stagger Lee]

Welcome Agusti. Thanks for stepping up.

Assuming this gets worked out to everyone's satisfaction, the next order of business should probably be Christmas. I don't foresee at this point needing a large block of time, but would like a relaxed hosting schedule during the holidays. And I would not object to any request for more time over the next couple of weeks.

See? I CAN do this without declaring war on my neighbors! :D

Does anyone else have an opinion, or do I have to declare war on someone? :shock:

[GrudgeBringer]

I would like to get this turn in and have the next one sent, we can put it on however many hours we want 100, 200 etc, with Quickhost so IF everyone gets a shot at completing a turn, a new one will come out with the same hours.

So no pressure and we can take it from Dec 23 or 24 (whenever the next turn comes out, clear thru NewwYears Day if we want.

How does this sound...If the 2 admins don't hear from you we will have to decide whats best and eveyone will have to live with it, so PLEASE let your feelings be known:eek:

[thejeff]

I've actually got some time off, so the schedule will be easier for me. Whatever people need is fine by me though.

In general I'm against giving more time than is asked for, since there's always a temptation to use any time you have, even when you could get it done sooner if there was a deadline. I know I've fallen prey to this.

[Stagger Lee]

Anyone hear from Louppatient? Tir na n'Og has staled twice in a row.

[Immaculate]

he stalled in Casual EA for busy schedules too.

i have his e-mail; we chatted a bit before; i'll e-mail him and see whats up.

[Yskonyn]

I will be out of the country during X-Mas and I come back on the 29th without any internet access...
I will be gone the day after tomorrow. So I would like to know wether we do a long hosting time interval, or I would need to find a sub...
I would vouch for putting the game on hold, but I read most of you guys actually have more time on their hands..

[Immaculate]

i'm fine with it going on hold.

[GrudgeBringer]

Is it possible toi get this turn in and then delay it until 1/2/10 and leave it on quickhost in case we have a few moments to finish, or do we want to extend THIS turn?

What ever we decide lets do it as Christmas eve is tomorrow.

Immaculate and I will be keeping an eye on the hosting time and will try to keep the game on pace, but we need to know how you guys want it.

[Klepto]

I'll be away now and then over teh festive season but never for much more than 24 hours. If it's set to 36 hour turns then I should be fine. Other than that I'm not fussed, take a break or not or whatever, and have a nice wintereenmas everyone!

[Yskonyn]

I can still send in this turn, after that however I will be unavailable until the 29th. No chance in getting a turn in either. Grudge, could you take care the of technical aspect of the hosting for now?

[pyg]

The curse is upon us! We are doomed.

--Vano

OOC: We got our butts kicked by treachery, over extension, inexperience, and poor choices politically and strategically. It was wicked fun though, esp. last battle with Ulm.

[GrudgeBringer]

Sure, I will take the admin until you tell me different...


FOLKS, AS CO-ADMIN I WILL BE THE ONE TO CONTACT FOR A WEEK OR SO IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM.

i AM GOING TO TRY AND GET THIS TURN IN AND EXTEND THE GAME UNTIL JAN 02 2010 QUICKHOST.

I HAVE PEOPLE IN TOWN SO I CAN LOOK IN AND CHECK IT FROM TIME TO TIME.

ITS CHRISTMAS EVE, PLEASE TRY AND GET TURNS IN BEFORE THIS EVENING, I DON'T WANT ANYONE STALING.

MERRY CHRISTMAS GUYS!!!

[Dark Kitty]

I have been defeated pretty fast but it was a fun and good learning experience, I will try to be better prepared for the early game from now on.

Good luck to my allies and/or friendly neighbours for the rest of the game ;)

I'm looking forward to have games with all of you again :)

And Happy New Year (a bit in advance) guys ;)