Exploit question

[sansanjuan]

I understand it is considered an exploit to charm the "Bogus boys" and copy their orders (Fire Mage, Attack Commanders, etc) to other commanders (and I won't do it). However, is it considered an exploit to Charm them,leave their orders as is and use the bogus gang in battle as is (never copying their orders to anyone else)?

-ssj

[chrispedersen]

I consider it perfectly ok to use bogus orders on bogus. I think I'm mainstream on that.

[Digress]

I think many players see it, Bogus and company keeping their orders, as "reward for effort". I agree with this point of view.

Copying their orders and using them on other commanders is cheating and something of a game breaker. It goes well beyond "reward for effort".

[K]

I think many players see it, Bogus and company keeping their orders, as "reward for effort". I agree with this point of view.

Copying their orders and using them on other commanders is cheating and something of a game breaker. It goes well beyond "reward for effort".

I find that most people think they are a lot more powerful than they really are. To call them a gamebreaker just shows a lack of experience since they basically only affect noobs.

Experienced players have seen enough Attack Rear and Flyers to ever not have units around commanders, and seen too many Earthquakes or other BF spells or just archers to not put some armor on mages.

Bogus orders don't even work on computer players.

[Lingchih]

I don't see a problem in using the original commanders to keep using their orders. It's usually pretty tough to keep them alive though. You need a lot of high pen charms.

[Digress]

I find that most people think they are a lot more powerful than they really are. To call them a gamebreaker just shows a lack of experience since they basically only affect noobs.

Experienced players have seen enough Attack Rear and Flyers to ever not have units around commanders, and seen too many Earthquakes or other BF spells or just archers to not put some armor on mages.

Bogus orders don't even work on computer players.

I would have thought being able to kit a bunch of cheapo commanders with bows and script them to "Fire Mage" would be pretty devastating. I haven't seen it happen and haven't ever used the commands, even on the rare occasion I charmed some of Bogus's troll buddies but I really can't see how it wouldn't be unfair.

[Sombre]

Three opinions here.

1) It's ok to leave the special orders on Bogus and co but not to copy them.
2) It's fine to copy them.
3) It's not ok to use them even on Bogus and co.

In my experience the majority holds opinion 1. A few vocal people hold opinion 2. Even less people hold opinion 3.

I hold opinion 3 myself.

So I'd stick to following opinion 1 in MP games unless you think it's worth annoying people over.

[K]

I find that most people think they are a lot more powerful than they really are. To call them a gamebreaker just shows a lack of experience since they basically only affect noobs.

Experienced players have seen enough Attack Rear and Flyers to ever not have units around commanders, and seen too many Earthquakes or other BF spells or just archers to not put some armor on mages.

Bogus orders don't even work on computer players.

I would have thought being able to kit a bunch of cheapo commanders with bows and script them to "Fire Mage" would be pretty devastating. I haven't seen it happen and haven't ever used the commands, even on the rare occasion I charmed some of Bogus's troll buddies but I really can't see how it wouldn't be unfair.

Try it. At a tactic, it ranks somewhere between "ho-hum" and "meh".

As far as I can tell, anyone who thinks it's awesome hasn't actually tried it against human or computer players. I mean, have you ever noticed how little trouble the computer AI has against Bogus provinces? Can you imagine how useless it is when someone outfits their first thug?

[Foodstamp]

I'm of Sombre's camp number 2, but it is just opinion and I wouldn't use it in MP just because most other players are in camp 1. If it were used against me, I wouldn't rat the offending player out.

[Baalz]

Meh, they can be worthwhile but they're less 'game breaking' than any of the top tier artifacts or globals - which is an appropriate comparison considering the amount of research, effort, and luck required. Sure, if you're not expecting them and they catch you with your pants down they can be devastating under the right circumstances, but I'd generally rather have the gatestone or the ark or the gift of health if I had a choice. I have to agree with K, most people who ban the orders seem to never have seen them leveraged, they just think they'd be bad in theory. There also seems to be a bit of a negative inclination from some because it 'feels like' this is unintended so its cheating to use it. Well...so are reverse communions (according to JK), along with I'm sure several of the other idiosyncrasies that make up the game.

[Sombre]

I agree that most people haven't seen it in action. Largely because it's both obscure and seen as an exploit. I've never done it because to me it's an exploit, which has nothing to do with how powerful it is.

I'd also happily see reverse communions removed, since they're so dependant on meta-game knowledge of unit IDs and if you don't want to use them, just make communions fiddly and arguably buggy. They feel more legit than copying orders over using a gui trick though.

[Zeldor]

I have seen Bogus orders (fire mages) used in MP. And they are as bad as people may fear, if used by good player on proper commanders with proper gear. If you have a mage in PD, it will be owned by a scout + bow. Your big battles will be lost due to some of your mages getting owned by arrows really fast. Of course losses can be limited, but should we be expecting everyone in MP, especially good players, to use exploits like that? I don't think so.

[Baalz]

"if used by good player on proper commanders with proper gear"....who lucked into getting Bogus, has the mages and research to cast charm/hellbind heart, lucks into actually charming the guy with those orders (you know, the one who is firing at the mages trying to charm him), takes the time to forge appropriate gear and get it with the commanders where it can be leveraged...he can easily take out your PD (if all you've got is mages for PD commanders) and unprotected mages. Truth is a 5 gem tower shield will leave your mages very resistant to most arrow fire (which will miss many shots regardless of scripting). A few more gems/smart scripting will leave them effectively immune. Sure, you can come up with some situations where it'll give you a nice advantage, but it's a tough sell to claim it's game breaking.

[Zeldor]

I don't think people are claiming it is. But it's an exploit. It takes some preparations, decent research and good luck to get it. But it can change the result of war, in some situations.

[LDiCesare]

I'd also happily see reverse communions removed, since they're so dependant on meta-game knowledge of unit IDs
The problem is that a reverse communion doesn't require any knowledge of unit IDs. You just have to tell the masters to leave the battlefield or stand not casting spells. The exploit part is when you want to keep the masters to cast spells.

[Zeldor]

The other way :) When you want slaves to cast spells.

[thejeff]

That is the other way. You tell the masters to leave, or give them a bow and fire. You don't need to know unit Ids, since once the masters stop casting any slaves will be free to.

[Foodstamp]

I have seen Bogus orders (fire mages) used in MP. And they are as bad as people may fear, if used by good player on proper commanders with proper gear. If you have a mage in PD, it will be owned by a scout + bow. Your big battles will be lost due to some of your mages getting owned by arrows really fast. Of course losses can be limited, but should we be expecting everyone in MP, especially good players, to use exploits like that? I don't think so.

Are you SURE you have seen this used in MP? Did the guy say he used it? The reason I ask is because all it took for me to be publicly accused of using it was using the "Fire at large monsters" command.

This thing is tedious to pull off; I have only done it a couple of times in SP, so it really surprises me to see accusations of it being used thrown around in MP all the time. You got a lot of crap going on in MP to be basing part of your resources and a chunk of your strategy towards charming Bogus.

That is one of the reasons I wouldn't accuse another player of using it, especially in public.

[Trumanator]

Well almost no one bases their strat off it. Its just useful to have.

[Foodstamp]

Well almost no one bases their strat off it. Its just useful to have.

No but it does take a considerable amount of mage resource which takes away from your overall strategy, and even then there is a chance it will fail. To near guarantee it works would take even more resources.

[Zeldor]

Yep, I'm sure. I have seen it more than once. Confirmed cases.

[Foodstamp]

Yep, I'm sure. I have seen it more than once. Confirmed cases.

How did you confirm the cases? The reason I ask is because in my situation I even had an independent 3rd party check my turn and the person accusing me still to this day does not believe me, and he is a pretty experienced player.

There are several scenarios that can play out that look exactly like "Fire at enemy commanders".

[Zeldor]

Played admitted it in one case, game admin admitted it another time, after looking at turn.

[Sombre]

I think we need an experienced 3rd party to confirm whether or not Zeldor is making up the confirmation :]

[Foodstamp]

The only way I would trust the 3rd party to confirm it is if a 4th party was an eye witness!

[Sombre]

I have a 3rd in partying, if that helps.

What? It's better than a pass.

[MaxWilson]

3rd in partying? You refuse to allow troops to attend your parties except in time of war as proscribed by law?

-Max

Pleading the Third: "No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law."

[K]

I only consider something an exploit only if it is game-breaking in some way. This game is full of undocumented features, so flipping out if someone takes advantage of one in game is silly even if the person maintaining the bug list considers it a bug (I mean, how many things on that list end up being WAD when the designers chime in).

Considering that the designers of the game have mentioned that they are OK with it, and its a not terribly effective tactic, it gets a pass in my book. I mean, the reason I play a computer game and not a tabletop game is so I don't have to argue rules with people. That means accepting all the little quirks in the game.

[Digress]

OK, saying it is "game breaking" was a touch over the top.

I would put it the category of "game ruining". Especially if someone exploited it with any success against me in an individual game. Which hasn't happened ...

But like a lot of things in MP games if something isn't explicitly ruled out before the game starts you, as a player, shouldn't really complain that much.

[Foodstamp]

I have a feeling this discussion could be heading down Mists of Deception Boulevard soon.

If you look to your left, you will see all the people who wanted the spell changed, the most vocal are missing because they quit playing shortly after the patch they lobbied for.

[MaxWilson]

OK, saying it is "game breaking" was a touch over the top.

I would put it the category of "game ruining". Especially if someone exploited it with any success against me in an individual game. Which hasn't happened ...

But like a lot of things in MP games if something isn't explicitly ruled out before the game starts you, as a player, shouldn't really complain that much.

In a hypothetical situation where somebody is copying Bogus' orders and using them against you... doesn't that just invite you to Charm his commanders and use the same orders against HIM? And of course Charming a scout with a bow and Fire Commanders should be a lot easier than Charming Bogus in the first place, especially since you get multiple tries.

-Max

[K]

I have a feeling this discussion could be heading down Mists of Deception Boulevard soon.

If you look to your left, you will see all the people who wanted the spell changed, the most vocal are missing because they quit playing shortly after the patch they lobbied for.

Yeh, that was a hilarious time. I proved that small endgame armies could fight their way out of a MoD easily and posted game files to that effect, argued it wasn't that powerful of a spell and acquired a few stalkers who to this day won't let up, got marked by the mods as "kinda a douche" in my permanent file(before the mods realized they could and should hide that crap), and a few months later we got a patch for an issue we didn't need fixed.

Good times.

On another note, I think Max has a good point though.

[Sombre]

Considering that the designers of the game have mentioned that they are OK with it

Where/when was this?

The only people I see veering this towards MoD thread territory and you and K foodstamp.

[Foodstamp]

I'll be your guide for this trip. This one will play out completely different than the MoD riot though because the devs are pretty much done changing the game!

Instead someone will have to create an MP mod that changes Bogus and his band of merry men into gigantic nerf balls that shower their enemies with candy when they are pinned to the ground and tickled under the arm.

[Gandalf Parker]

Even when the devs were actively working Dom3 it was a battle to try and get any changes to "Bogus and company" due to the special history involved which stretches back before the dominions game even existed. Im surprised they arent much stronger.

[Sombre]

Their slightly weird nature was very useful for modding unique units before the #unique tag, so I salute them!

[Digress]

Instead someone will have to create an MP mod that changes Bogus and his band of merry men into gigantic nerf balls that shower their enemies with candy when they are pinned to the ground and tickled under the arm.

I don't see this as a discussion about nerfing old Bogus and company. Its just about copying and pasting their commands in MP games. I take the view that it is not on, regardless of how effective it is in practice.

I know I have not tested it and perhaps it is completely "meh" as a strategy.

But if it has not been banned before a game starts the player on the receiving end shouldn't get too upset by it. I probably would but shouldn't ....

[Gandalf Parker]

Its another one of those items that creates an "everyone knows" argument. Its hard for a person who is creating a game to remember everything they want to rule on.

I still think that someone, maybe LLamaserver or the IRC group, could post a variety of such "well known community standards" someplace so that new games could do something like "Rule Set #5 applies"

[K]

I know I have not tested it and perhaps it is completely "meh" as a strategy.

But if it has not been banned before a game starts the player on the receiving end shouldn't get too upset by it. I probably would but shouldn't ....

And that's the core of this argument. People who aren't willing to test out the tactic make a snap decision that it is "overpowered", then they lobby the forums to ban it because they aren't willing to adapt their playstyle. Often they do so while someone is currently using it in an MP game against them or after some defeat.

It's an irrational standpoint, and no amount of proof or argument to the contrary can convince someone with an inherently irrational standpoint.

It's the same logic behind the CBM mod, a whole "rather than these elements making me adapt my playstyle and become a better player, everyone else should just play the way that fits me."

I'd argue that the reason there is no master list of "community standards" for a game this old is simply because they aren't needed. People have been playing the game for years without problems, but every once in a while someone pops in and makes a stink about their favorite pet peeve after some defeat on the battlefield. I mean, there is currently an argument against frigging Astral Magic on the front page. WTH?

[rdonj]

K, why do you insist on being pointlessly argumentative and ignoring everything another poster says just so you can continue harping on about your agenda? Every time you open your mouth, you tell us all why those moderators made that little comment about you.

Who exactly in this thread is lobbying to prevent the bogus orders from being allowed? NO ONE. I see people talking about their opinions about it, but that doesn't even remotely resemble lobbying. They don't need to lobby against it, because nearly every single game advertised on the forums specifically states that you can't copy bogus' orders as it is perceived that most people see it as an exploit. Since the devs apparently removed those orders from the game when a previous version of the game had them, I'd say there's a good chance they consider it an exploit as well.

You will notice that I haven't said whether or not I consider it to be an exploit. This is because it completely fails to matter whether it is an exploit or not for what I'm saying to be true. It seems like most people believe it's only an exploit if the house rules for the game they're playing say that it's an exploit. Is there really a problem with that? Frankly I fail to see one.

Your comment about it being an irrational standpoint is also completely unwarranted, since the very person you are making this comment at has had his opinion challenged by you and is reconsidering it! Seriously, get off your soapbox and start paying attention to what people say, not just what you want them to say.

And why exactly are you bringing CBM into this? Because you're so bitter about the clam nerf that had nearly all of the top players of the game dancing in joy after the horrors of preponderance and artifacts? Have you ever even played CBM? Most of what CBM does is try to make sense out of things that the vanilla game got confused about :P I can assure you, QM does not just make changes because he's not a good enough player to play properly.

And last but not least, WTH to your complaining about people complaining about astral magic. THERE IS ONE GUY WHO WAS COMPLAINING. He is a new player who was owned by some pretty heavy control spam and didn't understand how to deal with it. And I don't think a single other poster in that thread said that astral magic was overpowered. They did, however, offer him some advice on how to deal with such a problem. Again, seriously, pay attention and read before you spout off this nonsense. You are literally as bad about it as these people you claim to exist are. Thank you for wasting our time and derailing a perfectly innocent thread with your propaganda and nonsense.

[K]

Hey Rdonj,

Making personal attacks muddies the discourse. If you have nothing to add, please refrain from posting.

[Trumanator]

lol, K complaining about muddying the discourse, when every other post he makes has some embittered reference to how he can't abuse MoD anymore.

[Tollund]

You words don't cease to be personal attacks just because you don't name the people you are complaining about. Your post was a giant personal attack against every single person who doesn't agree with you, accusing them of being irrational. It's a standard tactic used by people who want to insult others while still flying under the radar of mods.

[rdonj]

Hey Rdonj,

Making personal attacks muddies the discourse. If you have nothing to add, please refrain from posting.

I have no need to respond to this anyway, as others have convincingly made my arguments for me :)

Way to prove me wrong btw.

[K]

Hey Rdonj,

Making personal attacks muddies the discourse. If you have nothing to add, please refrain from posting.

I have no need to respond to this anyway, as others have convincingly made my arguments for me :)

Way to prove me wrong btw.

What is there to prove wrong? You didn't say anything of value.

I expressed an opinion of a disturbing trend I have noticed where people try to get minor tactics in the game banned for no logical reason. You personally attacked me. End of story.

Now this thread sucks. Congratulations.

You did inspire me to find the ignore list, so I have to thank you for that.

[rdonj]

:lol

Okay, y'all can get back to talking about bogus now.

[Lingchih]

I do have a build, atm, that makes Bogus come up quite frequently. No idea why, but I've gotten him three times now. I'm running out of people to put "precious" on, so it is becoming attractive to charm him and his troops.

That said, if I did charm the archer, I would probably re-distribute his orders. Nothing about banning it was said in the game thread. Overlords game, which is kind of a cluster-frack anyway.

[Zeldor]

Someone is trying to argue with feebleminded again? :)

[LDiCesare]

Since the devs apparently removed those orders from the game when a previous version of the game had them, I'd say there's a good chance they consider it an exploit as well.
I must say that, as K, I remember the devs saying they didn't feel like it was an exploit. Namely, they want these orders to stay on Bogus's party, and didn't mind if someone copied their orders.

[Sombre]

LDiCesare: Since K seems to have left the thread in a hissy fit, maybe you could point me to where they said it isn't an exploit. I'm not disputing that they did but since you remember it, it would probably be easier for you to find than me and I'd like to see what they said about it.

I don't think their stance has that much bearing on the topic of this thread since the majority of people I've heard from still fall into camp #2. But it would be nice to know.

[Foodstamp]

Hey Rdonj, tone down the nerd rage. I brought up MoD to sate my appetite for tears. K didn't bring it up.

It's pretty obvious that Bogus's dudes orders and MoD are completely different. You guys should be ashamed for trying to gang up on a forum member because of what ultimately boils down to a difference of opinion.

Nothing said by anyone in this thread deserves nerd rage, except maybe for me bringing up MoD just to goad you guys (Sorry !:angel).

[Baalz]

In a slightly less antagonistic way let me argue the other side: the point is it doesn't matter what the devs think. There are so many undocumented features, quirks, bugs, and semi-unintended interactions its silly to picture this game as some divinely inspired piece of work that needs to be played in the intended perfection. It's an exploit because the devs didn't intend it to be there? To me that seems an incredibly silly position to take (though admittedly many do). Did the devs 'intend' that archer screens work the way they do? Did they 'intend' that water nations struggle with dominion just because of the way maps usually work? Did they 'intend' each counter for each unit in the game? Did they 'intend' for people to trade mages via hellbind heart/charm? Did they intend for clam hoarding to be required to be competitive in larger games? Or...did they just put a bunch of cool crap in here and tweak it until it was fun and had some semblance of balance?

Trying to play by what the devs intended is not only silly, it's pointless. If it's possible to do in the game, it's part of the game. In very special circumstances (the old mists of deception according to many) some aspect of the game is considered broken to the point it (semi) ruins the game to have people abusing it and it makes sense to agree not to do that. Trying to arbitrarily avoid things you think the devs didn't intend though is something I can't wrap my head around, and getting mad at somebody else for not doing the same thing is just wrong.

[Sombre]

You guys should be ashamed for trying to gang up on a forum member because of what ultimately boils down to a difference of opinion.

Yeah except that isn't what's happening. Not much use apologising for trolling then continuing to do so in the same post :P

Baalz: 'If it's possible to do in the game it's part of the game' seems a pointless truism to me. Obviously the 'exploit' in question is part of the game. Is anyone arguing it isn't? You do the entire thing from within the game, without breaking anything.

The question is whether people want it in the game - when they don't and they regard its use as spoiling their enjoyment, they'll react badly to it being used. Maybe they're irrational, but it doesn't matter. It seems to me the reason people don't want the Bogus copy orders 'exploit' in the game is that it /feels/ like a metagaming exploit or unfixed bug. Certainly the fact that if you change Bogus crews orders they lose the special orders forever and if you want to copy them you can only do so through a couple of keyboard shortcuts makes the whole thing feel buggy.

Imagine if you could somehow script a 6th spell on units with a secondary form by getting them killed into their second form then the next turn copying their orders over to an identical unit that was still in the first form, or something like that. I'm certain people would have the same reaction. It may be a pain in the *** to do and only help a marginal amount and be hard to even notice when people are using it but it would still feel like an exploit to a lot of people.

[Foodstamp]

Sombre, there is the catch. You don't want it in the game, but I do. Just like I wanted battlefield enchantments staying the way they were. I haven't used either in MP and it is easy enough to detect when someone does and make house rules against it.

It is not fair that YOU can complain to a company that developed a game I paid a lot of money for and get the game altered. Now I am left in a situation where I can never mod in an intended fire and flee enchantment for SP use. If the Bogus thing were to get changed, I wouldn't be able to use his orders towards the end of a SP just to have something to do for fun.

The complaining from your camp alters MY game, not just your MP games. And that is not right. You guys should have used assassins against the MoD commanders, or Mind Hunts etc. You guys should be using amulets of missile protection against fire at enemy commanders.

Instead you guys just want a game where you make a bunch of stupid gargoyles and tartarians and cast arcane nexus. QUIT screwing up my game!

[thejeff]

So your argument is that the developers shouldn't respond to user requests or complaints?

[Gandalf Parker]

Let me agree with some very respectable people, but from a totally new direction.
I dont care who meant or didnt mean it to be in. If I can RPG it, then its part of the game.

Bogus and company is an important part of Illwinter history. Its based on the devs original DnD adventuring party. Bogus was also the companys name before they changed it to Illwinter. So I have no problem that its a soft spot in the devs heart. They changed the scripting option in all units but those. Maybe it just didnt feel right to nerf Bogus.

So..
if I can manage to capture the legendary Illwinter adventuring groups member named Bogus, then I gain the ability to have him teach a new combat skill to my commanders. There. Its part of the game. (well my games anyway altho I would of course abide by an individual game creators rules)

Its probably not hugely more beneficial than other random events in the game.

[Tollund]

Just like I wanted battlefield enchantments staying the way they were.

Battlefield enchantments remaining after the caster retreats, when one is supposed to be able to end enchantments by killing the caster is clearly something that should have been fixed years ago. Leaving it as it only makes first round casting by the defender even more important than it currently is.

It is not fair that YOU can complain to a company that developed a game I paid a lot of money for and get the game altered.

This is a ridiculous statement. Of course it's fair. You could have complained back and made valid arguments, but then, nobody really cares about SP balance in this game, because the AI isn't capable of putting up a decent fight.

You guys should have used assassins against the MoD commanders, or Mind Hunts etc.

Assasins? Those guys that can't kill even non-mage commanders and still eat up commander recruitment slots? That less than half the nations have access too? Or mind hunt? Which essentially means that you play R'lyeh, Bandar log, Pythium, or Arco, and only Arco if you don't want a bunch of expensive feebleminded mages sitting around.

You guys should be using amulets of missile protection against fire at enemy commanders.

Where are we supposed to be getting the hundreds of gems, and the hours of micromanagement needed for management of such items? Are we all supposed to only play air/astral nations so that we have your supposed counters available?

Instead you guys just want a game where you make a bunch of stupid gargoyles and tartarians and cast arcane nexus. QUIT screwing up my game!

Stop assuming that the vanilla game is sacrosanct.

[rdonj]

Hey Rdonj, tone down the nerd rage. I brought up MoD to sate my appetite for tears. K didn't bring it up.

It's pretty obvious that Bogus's dudes orders and MoD are completely different. You guys should be ashamed for trying to gang up on a forum member because of what ultimately boils down to a difference of opinion.

Nothing said by anyone in this thread deserves nerd rage, except maybe for me bringing up MoD just to goad you guys (Sorry !:angel).

I never once mentioned MoD. I was merely pointing out the various ways in which K was demonstrably wrong. So I have no idea what you are talking about.


LDiCesare: Since K seems to have left the thread in a hissy fit, maybe you could point me to where they said it isn't an exploit. I'm not disputing that they did but since you remember it, it would probably be easier for you to find than me and I'd like to see what they said about it.

I don't think their stance has that much bearing on the topic of this thread since the majority of people I've heard from still fall into camp #2. But it would be nice to know.

I second sombre, on all counts.


Baalz - I would consider things to be an exploit if the devs consider them to be exploits. JK and KO do not always consider "undocumented features" and unintended mechanics to be exploits, such as for example reverse communions. But if they did consider something unintended to be an exploit, I would feel that it was an exploit as well. That is not the only reason I would consider something to be an exploit, though I feel it is a good reason to do so.

Again, I wasn't getting mad at K for having a different opinion, I saw that he was posting nonsense, showed why it was nonsense, and got on his case for attacking another poster (and everyone else who doesn't explicitly agree with him) for saying things that they clearly had not said in any way, shape or form.


And to foodstamp's post after mine - As far as I can tell no one is trying to get it changed so that you can't copy bogus' orders. OP asks a question. A bunch of people respond and state their opinion. No one says "hey this should be changed by the devs because it's buggy". House rules continue to decide whether copying bogus' orders is okay or not and life goes on. Especially since at this point I'm pretty sure the devs are done making such changes to the game.

[Zeldor]

I think that most people prefer smooth and balanced game. Where your skill decides if you win or not. Without some bugs wrecking your game. And exploits are pretty much bugs. As game admin I don't want to list all possible things that should be banned [it'd be nice to create that list though] and as a player I don't want to worry if my neighbour is not using dirty trick, making him suddenly much stronger than he should be.

Most exploits are not vocally protested because they are very rarely used. Be it MoD, Bogus orders or VP ceding. Almost every good player is above strats like that. The problem is with that 'almost' and problems they create. And arguing that most of mp community spoils their fun is really selfish.

And yes, I am against tartarian spamming and whole mechanics behind them. They should be fixed. Same for some other things, like uber globals. Good thing clamming is gone.

[Zeldor]

Foodstamp:

Ok, I used some time and did a proper search for Kristoffer's posts about Bogus as your reference was a bit untrue.

First post: [10-02-07]

"I like the fact that the VIsitors, Bogus and his merry men, have the ability to target commanders.

I think it can be fun in an SP game to get hold of these ancient tactical skills. The older the better (in accordance with the creed of most new religious movements). These are dom-ppp survivals and ancient to boot.

I think it would be naughty to use these orders in MP, unless all players agreed to their eventual use.

I think it would be fun if assassins were given limited access to these orders."


Another post:

"BTW, you are not supposed to take Bogus' things from him. Especially if you think that you can make better stuff for yourself."

[Sombre]

Sombre, there is the catch. You don't want it in the game, but I do. Just like I wanted battlefield enchantments staying the way they were. I haven't used either in MP and it is easy enough to detect when someone does and make house rules against it.

So? How is that a catch? I already stated my opinion on Bogus and Co does not fall in line with the majority view. I'm in camp 3) the majority is verifiably camp 2). I play keeping the views of the majority in mind on matters like exploits - since I am aware of them I consider them to be the unspoken rules of common sense. It's irrelevant whether I agree with them or not.

It is not fair that YOU can complain to a company that developed a game I paid a lot of money for and get the game altered. Now I am left in a situation where I can never mod in an intended fire and flee enchantment for SP use. If the Bogus thing were to get changed, I wouldn't be able to use his orders towards the end of a SP just to have something to do for fun.

I'm not sure who you're ranting at here but it can't be me since I've never complained to Illwinter about anything. I can only assume you're projecting.

Some advice re: SP games - use an older patch.
Some advice re: modding - now you can mod an anti enchantment spell that causes casters to flee. Doors and windows.

I'm not going to quote any more from that post because your spittle spray response is in the wrong thread and directed at the wrong person. But here is a slightly older post:

I have a feeling this discussion could be heading down Mists of Deception Boulevard soon.

Well I guess you did give us fair warning you were going to try and drag it that way. And you criticise others for 'nerd rage'. For shame.

[Sombre]

And to foodstamp's post after mine - As far as I can tell no one is trying to get it changed so that you can't copy bogus' orders. OP asks a question. A bunch of people respond and state their opinion. No one says "hey this should be changed by the devs because it's buggy". House rules continue to decide whether copying bogus' orders is okay or not and life goes on. Especially since at this point I'm pretty sure the devs are done making such changes to the game.

I concur. Though I think it doesn't really matter if people are asking for something or not. It's selfish to demand nothing changes if change is what people want. It's also insulting to the devs to pretend they are at the beck and call of irrational whiners. If they wanted to change Bogus and Co they would and it's never UNFAIR for those playing their game to provide them with feedback. Who wants to second guess if it will inform their decisions? I sure as hell don't make posts with the intent of changing anyone's mind.

[Foodstamp]

Foodstamp:

Ok, I used some time and did a proper search for Kristoffer's posts about Bogus as your reference was a bit untrue.

First post: [10-02-07]

"I like the fact that the VIsitors, Bogus and his merry men, have the ability to target commanders.

I think it can be fun in an SP game to get hold of these ancient tactical skills. The older the better (in accordance with the creed of most new religious movements). These are dom-ppp survivals and ancient to boot.

I think it would be naughty to use these orders in MP, unless all players agreed to their eventual use.

I think it would be fun if assassins were given limited access to these orders."


Another post:

"BTW, you are not supposed to take Bogus' things from him. Especially if you think that you can make better stuff for yourself."

Zeldor: I didn't reference any of the Devs posts.

Sombre: the You did not mean you personally. I meant if you (as in anyone) wanted something changed, it affects the people who don't want it changed.

[MaxWilson]

Another post:

"BTW, you are not supposed to take Bogus' things from him. Especially if you think that you can make better stuff for yourself."

Ahahahahaha! That explains so much. :) Thanks for finding that.

-Max

[TwoBits]

There hasn't been a heated discussion like this in a long time - so thanks for the entertaining early X-mas present! :)

Otherwise, I think this is a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. As others have pointed out, it is supremely unlikely the developers will alter anything at this point, so this all comes down to house rules for MP games. So what's all the fuss about? You don't like the house rules, play another game.

IMO, these special scripts are highly unlikely to occur, but if they do, I can see how they can be unbalancing. Just had a normal MP turn where a Dryad with a Piercer (only 5 E gems - 3 w/ a Hammer - in CBM) gunned down an important enemy mage trying to assist PD. Her script was just 'Eagle Eyes', 'Fire Large Enemy', but she she still zeroed in on a human-sized mage (an Amazon, I think) at the expense of the PD units.

Game over in that fight, and that was just with whatever normal AI algorithms are usually run. But with special Bogus-scripts, and cheap ranged weapons, I can easily see how Bogus' tactics can be seen as game breaking.

But it would be so hard to pull of in MP (OK, Bogus has landed in my territory, and somehow I've got all sorts of free time to organize a Charm-crew, etc.), that it's hard to imagine it's worse than someone finding, say, the Circle Masters magic site, or a Conjuration bonus site.

In the end, I guess that's how I'd rank the outcome: Like finding Mt. Chaining, or that 50% off Conjuration site - yeah, potentially game breaking, but that's the way the lucky ball bounces in Dominions (but then I've seen that some people would like to ban powerful magic sites like that also).

[MaxWilson]

IMO, these special scripts are highly unlikely to occur, but if they do, I can see how they can be unbalancing. Just had a normal MP turn where a Dryad with a Piercer (only 5 E gems - 3 w/ a Hammer - in CBM) gunned down an important enemy mage trying to assist PD. Her script was just 'Eagle Eyes', 'Fire Large Enemy', but she she still zeroed in on a human-sized mage (an Amazon, I think) at the expense of the PD units.

That's really interesting. Was it just chance? Can you re-run the battle a few times with new randomization? (Add a unit to the replay and immediately kill it, Shift-U + Shift-K, which resets the randomizer.)

-Max

[TwoBits]

That's really interesting. Was it just chance? Can you re-run the battle a few times with new randomization? (Add a unit to the replay and immediately kill it, Shift-U + Shift-K, which resets the randomizer.)

-Max

Um, I guess I could, if I knew how to do stuff like that ;) Since I've never played around with the guts of Dominions before, I'd really need someone to walk me through that (PM me with details if you're truly interested).

But yeah, it was either luck, or the AI. Besides the Dryad snipers (there were two), all I had, of missile troops, were some monkey archers. They always fired right at the PD, and apparently so did the Dryads for the first few rounds.

Then about round 5 or so, right after the enemy mage - and it was an Amazon - cast Swarm, blamo, both shot at her, and one nailed her. So why did they change targets? Dunno.

[Belac]

As a new person on these boards, can I ask for a neutral explanation of the Mists of Deception brouhaha? I've never cast it or had it cast on me in-game, and the description in the manual is quite vague.

[Trumanator]

Used to be that if you cast it and then retreated the caster the monsters would keep coming. Therefore, if you were the defender it could be literally impossible to lose since the enemy army would hit the turn 50 autorout. Plus it let you kill all of an enemy's mindless and berserk units. All that at the cost of a few A gems and risking a mage for _one_ turn.

[MaxWilson]

That's really interesting. Was it just chance? Can you re-run the battle a few times with new randomization? (Add a unit to the replay and immediately kill it, Shift-U + Shift-K, which resets the randomizer.)

-Max

Um, I guess I could, if I knew how to do stuff like that ;) Since I've never played around with the guts of Dominions before, I'd really need someone to walk me through that (PM me with details if you're truly interested).

I won't PM because others may be interested. The method is really simple: while watching a battle replay, type Shift+U (uppercase U) and type in a unit name or number, and it will add as many of that type of unit as you ask for to the battle in the place where your cursor was, as independent units. Type Shift+K to kill the units in the square your cursor is over.

If you do this, it obviously changes the battle from the "official" outcome that gets listed in the after-action report (X units killed, etc.) and it doesn't affect the actual game, but it makes testing certain things easy. For instance, you can test whether your killer army that just stomped all over somebody's PD would have done quite so well if the enemy had had 8 Wraith Lords there instead of PD, or if your mage had died before casting Fire Storm.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

Used to be that if you cast it and then retreated the caster the monsters would keep coming. Therefore, if you were the defender it could be literally impossible to lose since the enemy army would hit the turn 50 autorout. Plus it let you kill all of an enemy's mindless and berserk units. All that at the cost of a few A gems and risking a mage for _one_ turn.

All this is true. Let me add: it used to be that the only way to break a battlefield enchantment[1] was by killing the caster, which meant that if the caster Retreated or cast Returning or was banished to Inferno or Cocytus, the enchantment would stay up for the rest of the combat. I *think* all of the above methods of removing the enemy mage from the battlefield now also cancel the spell.

-Max

[1] Battlefield enchantment: any battlefield-wide spell that is not instantaneous, e.g. Mists of Deception, Fire Storm, Rigor Mortis etc. but not Army of Gold, Will of the Fates etc. Listed in the manual as "BE" vs. "BF".

[Foodstamp]

It was pretty funny. The best part was the guy who used it first barely spoke English and rarely posted here. It was hilarious to see someone with such little interaction in this forum make so many people have a conniption fit. There were personal insults, liberal use of caps lock and moderators joining in the name calling. Good times :).

[TwoBits]

That's really interesting. Was it just chance? Can you re-run the battle a few times with new randomization? (Add a unit to the replay and immediately kill it, Shift-U + Shift-K, which resets the randomizer.)

-Max

Um, I guess I could, if I knew how to do stuff like that ;) Since I've never played around with the guts of Dominions before, I'd really need someone to walk me through that (PM me with details if you're truly interested).

I won't PM because others may be interested. The method is really simple: while watching a battle replay, type Shift+U (uppercase U) and type in a unit name or number, and it will add as many of that type of unit as you ask for to the battle in the place where your cursor was, as independent units. Type Shift+K to kill the units in the square your cursor is over.

If you do this, it obviously changes the battle from the "official" outcome that gets listed in the after-action report (X units killed, etc.) and it doesn't affect the actual game, but it makes testing certain things easy. For instance, you can test whether your killer army that just stomped all over somebody's PD would have done quite so well if the enemy had had 8 Wraith Lords there instead of PD, or if your mage had died before casting Fire Storm.

-Max

OK, ran a few test replays (thanks for that Shift-U/K tip, by the way!). Interestingly, in none of the tests did the Dryads shoot at the Amazon Sorceress (or the other two PD-commanders, as far as I could see) again. Not sure what to make of that result, except to say that I must have gotten very lucky in the 'real' turn :confused:

But I can see how Dryads (or some other cheap A or N mage) armed with Pierces (or some such) and Bogus' friends' scripts, that could be really, really nasty...

[Illuminated One]

When Shift-U-ing things into a real battle you will also see that the enemy mages will use different spells. So you can practically get to know almost the whole research of your enemy if you shift-u a lot of different stuff into a battle and note down the spells your enemy casts. This is an exploit imo, but I suppose many people know it already, so it's probably better if everyone does.

[MaxWilson]

When Shift-U-ing things into a real battle you will also see that the enemy mages will use different spells. So you can practically get to know almost the whole research of your enemy if you shift-u a lot of different stuff into a battle and note down the spells your enemy casts. This is an exploit imo, but I suppose many people know it already, so it's probably better if everyone does.

Theorycrafting:

You could also make a guess at figuring out what his scripting orders are. Did that D4 mage cast Raise Skeletons because he was scripted to do so, or was he scripted to Disintegrate and there just wasn't anybody in range because I set my guys toward the back? Let's add somebody within 25 squares of him, Manhattan distance, and see if he tries to Disintegrate them instead. Are those cavalry set to Attack Nearest or Attack Archers? Let's add some archers.

I have never tried this in practice but I conjecture that you could gain useful information. In particular, you could attack with a scout and insert a bunch of units. Normally a scout attack would not trigger any gem-using spells, but with a bunch of added units the mages should act normally.

-Max

[Seve82]

When Shift-U-ing things into a real battle you will also see that the enemy mages will use different spells. So you can practically get to know almost the whole research of your enemy if you shift-u a lot of different stuff into a battle and note down the spells your enemy casts. This is an exploit imo, but I suppose many people know it already, so it's probably better if everyone does.

Didn't know that one. :doh: Off to sift-u/k -> On other thought turns take long allready would take much longer to do that too.

[Dimaz]

It's much faster to see all researched spells in the -ddd log.

[vfb]

Oh yeah. For that matter, you see exactly what the script is too.

[Kuritza]

This thread mentioned one thing I agree with.

Its wrong to remove huge parts of the game you dont like. You can easily guess what I mean, since its a main feature of CBM 1.6. It removed a whole tactical layer of the game, instantly nerfing the hell out of some nations and insanely buffing others, altering the gameplay etc.
This is maybe half the reason why I wont join any further games once Lapis and Setsumi end. And yes, I already heard the '90% of non-noob players' and 'good riddance, emo' responds, so dont bother. :)

[sansanjuan]

This thread mentioned one thing I agree with.

Its wrong to remove huge parts of the game you dont like. You can easily guess what I mean, since its a main feature of CBM 1.6. It removed a whole tactical layer of the game, instantly nerfing the hell out of some nations and insanely buffing others, altering the gameplay etc.
This is maybe half the reason why I wont join any further games once Lapis and Setsumi end. And yes, I already heard the '90% of non-noob players' and 'good riddance, emo' responds, so dont bother. :)

Kurz,
After your other two games end start up a vanilla game. I and others (I'm sure) still swing both ways Dominions-wise. ;)
-ssj

[Sombre]

Its wrong to remove huge parts of the game you dont like. You can easily guess what I mean, since its a main feature of CBM 1.6. It removed a whole tactical layer of the game, instantly nerfing the hell out of some nations and insanely buffing others, altering the gameplay etc.

How is it wrong? You're talking about a mod. Don't like it, don't use it. At least with a patch I can see /some/ reason to cry about it, even if I would tell such people to suck it up and stop being selfish.

[Kuritza]

Its wrong since vanilla and CBM 1.5 games just won't start now. I've seen one attempt recently; it failed. Perhaps because people, myself included, got used to many good changes of CBM, like worthy rainbow and titan pretenders, usable cavalry, buffed low-level conjurations etc.

[Dimaz]

You talk about a mod that became a MP standart as was described here. And now we see people who talk about "horribly imbalanced" vanilla version, while many, including myself and Kuritza, were playing from the beginning of Dom3 and before that (Dom2) and had lots of fun in this "horribly imbalanced" game. Well, it is true that most of the CBM changes are really great and give more strategic options, but the combination of such global changes as gemgen removal AND the idea that CBM is undoubtely better than vanilla and should be included by default in all MP is in the heart of this situatiuon. Actually I think many of the players who join new games just think "oh my I heard vanilla is horribly imbalanced, I should stay only with CBM party". And in such case some changes can be made that actually take away some interesting strategic variations.

[Sombre]

So ask qm if you can make your own parallel version of cbm without gemgens removed. It's about 2 minutes work to change the dm to leave them in. Then make the games yourselves and advertise them. It's what people did when they wanted to play cbm and vanilla was far more popular, not too long ago.

Clams were removed in CBM because a lot of people wanted that change. Even more people seem very happy with the change in games they're currently playing. Just because they like to play this way and you don't doesn't make them wrong. Geez.

[Graeme Dice]

There's not much that's "interesting" about the gem generating items. You build as many of them as possible, send their income back into making more of them, and eventually end up with a gem income that cannot be taken away from you except by unimaginable amounts of luck. They've all been nerfed many times even by the devs since the days of Dominions 2. Basically, if you expect the game to last long enough that you will get a positive return on investment on a gem generating item, then they are almost always the proper way to spend your gems, and that kind of choice really limits viable strategic options. If it were possible to keep the generated gems from being removed from the commander that had them, so that they were only used for battlefield purposes, then they'd be perfectly fine items, but you can't do that, so they are broken.

[Kuritza]

It doesnt reduce your options, it increases them dramatically - at the cost of, yes, being forced to make gemgens. It just silly to say that having more gems narrows your available options, so I wont even explain why its wrong. The only thing gemgens were reducing was the impact of national troops on the lategame. Which was a GREAT thing because national troops are simply not balanced against each other, with gemgens in mind.

And I dont want to make my own balance mods and advertise them - this is exactly the kind of thing that killed Dominions for me, and I dont feel like being a reanimator. I just say that its wrong when several players remove an important part of the game they dont like - for everyone.
As for the rest of community supporting this change... well, I live in Russia and I can tell you much about such things. Our whole history is about weird things being supported by the crowd. :)

[Micah]

You didn't play in Prepo or Artifacts as far as I know, and thus haven't been involved in some of the more famous train wrecks that gens have caused. I thought they were a pretty spiffy idea for a while myself (generally because I was the only one using them and they seemed like a great tool to let me win), but extensive experience has taught me otherwise. Can you point me to an MP game in which both you and an opponent have had well over 300 gens each? In artifacts I know that I got to the point where I was mass spamming juggernauts to go for a dom win because I considered winning through military means to be nearly impossible due to the combined might of first turn defensive advantage and gens making raiding pointless.

Saying that they provide more options, while technically true, is also a great justification for playing with the debug mod on. You have SO MANY options then, and national troops don't matter at all, so it's almost perfectly balanced! Doesn't make for a good game though.

[Sombre]

I just say that its wrong when several players remove an important part of the game they dont like - for everyone.

They didn't. They removed it for themselves and posted the mod up. Others then chose to use it, or not. That's the essence of all mods. So again, how is that wrong?

[Graeme Dice]

It just silly to say that having more gems narrows your available options, so I wont even explain why its wrong.

No it's not. If clams are available for mass production, and if the game will last more than the time for their cost to be paid off, then any other use of gems is suboptimal. If one option is clearly the best choice, then the other options might as well not exist. Who would make two water elemental bottles when you could instead make one clam of pearls?

The water elemental bottle also functions as a gem generator, producing the equivalent of one water gem in every battle where it shows up. It's just one that needs to be risked on the battlefield for ten turns to recoup its investment.

I just say that its wrong when several players remove an important part of the game they dont like - for everyone.

Nobody did that. You are free to play whatever version of the game that you want. But the thing is that it's always been the newer, less experienced players who wanted gem generators to remain in the game in nearly every argument over them for the past five or six years. In my experience, almost anybody who's played enough games to see the effect that they can have ends up arguing against them. And eventually, enough people have played in enough games that have been ended in ridiculous situations because of limitless gem income that people don't want to play those games anymore.

[Gandalf Parker]

Everything is a sliding scale, and can be taken to an extreme. Balance is only one of those sliding scales. I dont think there ever will be a complete agreement on balance. People have their own preferences for how much balance is good. Extreme balance would just be, well, chess.

Hmm....
I wonder if anyone has played a game with one of the mods that gives everyone the same nation? And using CBM of course. That might be an interesting test of skill. Not really Dominions but interesting.

[Baalz]

Kuritza - if you can't get a game with certain settings/mods/rules (including plain vanilla) to start then it's pretty self evident that there aren't many people who want to play that way. Unfortunately this community is fairly small so you either have to roll with what most people are playing or beat the bushes to drum up some interest for what you want to play. Complaining that nobody wants to play the way you do is a bit silly. Maybe some other settings might be more to your liking while also appealing to more players: have you considered more common magic sites, easy research or money/resource multiples to "increase your options"? A game like this (Utopia) is just starting now...

[thejeff]

No it's not. If clams are available for mass production, and if the game will last more than the time for their cost to be paid off, then any other use of gems is suboptimal. If one option is clearly the best choice, then the other options might as well not exist. Who would make two water elemental bottles when you could instead make one clam of pearls?


I'd have to quibble with that, though I agree overall. If you win battles/survive/take more territory because of those bottles water/Frost Brands/whatever, then they may not be suboptimal. Clams are optimal in the long run, but other investments may have a much shorter payoff, or a shorter window of opportunity (Water Queens?)
There's an opportunity cost to investing in the long term.

[MaxWilson]

It doesnt reduce your options, it increases them dramatically - at the cost of, yes, being forced to make gemgens. It just silly to say that having more gems narrows your available options, so I wont even explain why its wrong.

On the one hand, from a decision theory perspective, removing an option which dominates all other options can increase the *interesting* set of options and thus the strategic complexity of the game.

One the other hand, producing gem gens does not dominate all other options because there are times (i.e. you're under attack) when making more gem gens is a bad investment, just as there are times in Bloons Tower Defense 4 when buying more banana farms is a bad investment because you need the firepower NOW.

On the gripping hand, I personally hate clams even in SP. I feel oddly compelled to forge them because they're so clearly optimal most of the time--I can only imagine how much worse the temptation/pressure is in MP. I've got mixed feelings about bloodstones--I wish there were a way to remove only the gemgen aspect.

-Max

[Dimaz]

Well, in the game I played last year it was just as you say, in the end it was me with over 200 provs and Executor who had about half as many, but he was EA Ctis and clammed like crazy while I (LA Ctis) was conquering the world. In the end I had about 400 converted astral/turn but he had Nexus and FotA up, so we had some nice battles and finally he won with GoH-Armageddon combo because he had more gems than me (999 dispels/recasts were not uncommon there). So I know what are you talking about but still I'm against such changes. About making our own mod - hehe, this mod already exists and is called CBM 1.5 :) Actually I prefer vanilla game (heresy!), but 1.5 was also fine. I see no reason to argue with the community here and actually I was going to start some sort of "nostalgia" no-mods game after I'm finished with in some of my current games but it seems I'm going to stay for a while in them.

[Kuritza]

Kuritza - if you can't get a game with certain settings/mods/rules (including plain vanilla) to start then it's pretty self evident that there aren't many people who want to play that way. Unfortunately this community is fairly small so you either have to roll with what most people are playing or beat the bushes to drum up some interest for what you want to play. Complaining that nobody wants to play the way you do is a bit silly. Maybe some other settings might be more to your liking while also appealing to more players: have you considered more common magic sites, easy research or money/resource multiples to "increase your options"? A game like this (Utopia) is just starting now...

It still boils down to ZEEEEEEEEEEERGGGGG!!!!! gameplay.

Why? Because there is no alternate source of income. If you are denied land, you die, as simple as that. If somebody invested heavily in early ZEEEEEERGGG!!! and got noobish neighbours, and you got stuck with some Pangaea gaeaey who turtled in his unbreakable castles with endless maenads, you lose automatically.
In Setsumi I struggle ONLY because I have gemgens. Were it down to whoever has more units, HECK, there wouldnt be even a fraction of a chance against LA Ermor who controls half the map.

Who cares if magic sites are common, if national troops remain important throughout the whole game, and your national troops suck? Bandar Log without clams against Shinuyama! Ha ha, Machaka against double-bless Mictlan! Eriu against MA Vanheim! MA Oceania against anything! All strategies revolve against just one thing - imba fast expansion. There is just no alternate route.

I dont complain that nobody wants to play the way I prefer; I complain that some guys decided for everyone that from now on this game will not be Dominions I have come to like. They made decision for me. And since CBM was already popular, of course most players (who would be rather indiffirent to the topic otherwise) went with the flow.
But actually, I dont mind quitting. More free time is always a good thing. I just wanted to say this before I leave - it was a crappy idea to decide how EVERYONE will play.

P.S.

By the way, regarding Utopia - Dimaz can confirm, I was laughing like MAD at that very game. 250% gold, 250% resources, no gemgens, Ashdod banned. Lots of gold and heaps of resources, can I say Dai Oni hacking to bits everything while Bakemono mages find more or less all sites possible? :)

[Baalz]

Slow day today, guess I'll respond even though we're falling into troll country.


It still boils down to ZEEEEEEEEEEERGGGGG!!!!! gameplay.

...

Who cares if magic sites are common, if national troops remain important throughout the whole game, and your national troops suck? Bandar Log without clams against Shinuyama! Ha ha, Machaka against double-bless Mictlan! Eriu against MA Vanheim! MA Oceania against anything! All strategies revolve against just one thing - imba fast expansion. There is just no alternate route.



That's just ridiculously false. Obviously you're constrained throughout the game as to what you can do, but your province count is only one factor. Who is in a stronger position when an earlyish war starts? The guy who:
Went with a blistering initial expansion and has the most provinces?
or the guy who...
Went with strong scales and a moderate expansion and has the most gold income?
or the guy who...
Invested in castles instead of expansion and has 3 times as many forts?
or the guy who...
Invested in research rather than expansion?
or the guy who...
Went with early site searching and has the most gems?
or the guy who...
invested in a heavy bless for thugs that didn't help much with initial expansion but are now coming into their own?
etc. etc.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing....that it's not fair to have to use monkeys when playing Bandar Log as the game progresses? If that's so objectionable don't play Bandar Log, and you might even change your mind if somebody shows you some stuff you hadn't considered.


But actually, I dont mind quitting. More free time is always a good thing. I just wanted to say this before I leave - it was a crappy idea to decide how EVERYONE will play.


Again, I don't quite follow your logic. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from playing with or without any mods you want other than finding similar minded people to play with. Nobody decided what EVERYONE will play...other than EVERYONE.

[Gandalf Parker]

Actually the point is still worth making and clearly defining who and how many are more for the joy of variety than the idea of everyone playing one way. Earlier I was accused of almost vigilante attacks against cbm which rather surprised me. Its not like I dive into every game-start thread to preach against cbm. I tend to show up when someone (actually mostly just one or two people) show up and tell the game op that all mp games use cbm or should use cbm. They do this even when they proclaim at the same time that they dont plan to play in that game. Particularly irritating when its games involving some variant other than last-one-standing where balance does not necessarily win over game play.

The fact that some of the generally recognized trend-setters in the community are so outspoken against the fostering of such an impression might help to go far in allowing some more variant games where mod selection, if left up for discussion at all, will fall into the realm of please and thankyou.

[Sombre]

I dont complain that nobody wants to play the way I prefer; I complain that some guys decided for everyone that from now on this game will not be Dominions I have come to like. They made decision for me. And since CBM was already popular, of course most players (who would be rather indiffirent to the topic otherwise) went with the flow.
But actually, I dont mind quitting. More free time is always a good thing. I just wanted to say this before I leave - it was a crappy idea to decide how EVERYONE will play.

This makes no more sense now than it did the first 4 times you said it. How is one person dictating how everyone else will play? Please explain it to me, step by step. Without hysterics if possible. Apparently I just don't get it, because I've always thought if you didn't want to use CBM in a game you didn't have to. Has this changed without me knowing?

I just assumed people were making use of a completely optional mod provided free of charge by a member of this board because they wanted to.

[rdonj]

The fact that some of the generally recognized trend-setters in the community are so outspoken against the fostering of such an impression might help to go far in allowing some more variant games where mod selection, if left up for discussion at all, will fall into the realm of please and thankyou.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm really struggling to understand what you meant by this.

[Kuritza]

I dont complain that nobody wants to play the way I prefer; I complain that some guys decided for everyone that from now on this game will not be Dominions I have come to like. They made decision for me. And since CBM was already popular, of course most players (who would be rather indiffirent to the topic otherwise) went with the flow.
But actually, I dont mind quitting. More free time is always a good thing. I just wanted to say this before I leave - it was a crappy idea to decide how EVERYONE will play.

This makes no more sense now than it did the first 4 times you said it. How is one person dictating how everyone else will play? Please explain it to me, step by step. Without hysterics if possible. Apparently I just don't get it, because I've always thought if you didn't want to use CBM in a game you didn't have to. Has this changed without me knowing?

I just assumed people were making use of a completely optional mod provided free of charge by a member of this board because they wanted to.

Just read what Gandalf above you said. Perhaps you have better understanding than Rdonj.
CBM was actively promoted; people were directly told that no game should start without CBM, and vanilla games are terrible. Opinion has been forced, it worked.

[Kuritza]

That's just ridiculously false. Obviously you're constrained throughout the game as to what you can do, but your province count is only one factor. Who is in a stronger position when an earlyish war starts? The guy who:
Went with a blistering initial expansion and has the most provinces?
or the guy who...
Went with strong scales and a moderate expansion and has the most gold income?
or the guy who...
Invested in castles instead of expansion and has 3 times as many forts?
or the guy who...
Invested in research rather than expansion?
or the guy who...
Went with early site searching and has the most gems?
or the guy who...
invested in a heavy bless for thugs that didn't help much with initial expansion but are now coming into their own?

Without gemgens, the guy who has conquered the most provinces, as long as he also researched and found magic sites. As simple as that.


I'm not even sure what you're arguing....that it's not fair to have to use monkeys when playing Bandar Log as the game progresses? If that's so objectionable don't play Bandar Log, and you might even change your mind if somebody shows you some stuff you hadn't considered.

Oh no, he won't. Having to rely on weak troops when your opponent has strong troops is bad, and so far nobody managed to make it work.


Again, I don't quite follow your logic. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from playing with or without any mods you want other than finding similar minded people to play with. Nobody decided what EVERYONE will play...other than EVERYONE.

That's just ridiculously false. When somebody tried to start a non-CBM 1.6 mod, people came and told him that he shouldnt. It was like a holy war against heresy.
Such crusading obviously worked, so its impossible to find a game with gemgens now. CBM was promoted until EVERYONE believed that nobody should play without it. It doesnt necessarily mean its true.
And then it changed the game in such a dramatic way.

[Graeme Dice]

Without gemgens, the guy who has conquered the most provinces, as long as he also researched and found magic sites. As simple as that.

And with gemgens, it's exactly the same, with the caveat that the underwater races don't need the same number of provinces because they are harder to attack. Having more provinces with gem generators simply means that I'm going to be making more gemgens than you. The game breaks utterly when one can leverage incomes of hundreds of gems per turn.

Oh no, he won't. Having to rely on weak troops when your opponent has strong troops is bad, and so far nobody managed to make it work.

Really? Nobody has ever managed it? Nobody has ever won while playing C'Tis? Caelum? Jotunheim? Any of the majority of the nations who have average quality troops?

That's just ridiculously false. When somebody tried to start a non-CBM 1.6 mod, people came and told him that he shouldnt. It was like a holy war against heresy.

No, people told him that they weren't interested in playing a game with gem generators. Look, I'm happy to play in one or two games a year where generators decide the outcome, just as long as I get to play R'lyeh, C'Tis or Bandar log in each case. Because that essentially means that if I can convince my neighbours to act as a buffer between hostile nations and myself
for just long enough, then I'm going to win the game by forging clams.

Such crusading obviously worked, so its impossible to find a game with gemgens now.

You could start your own games you know. But then you'd probably rather claim that you're being oppressed because you can't find people to play against who want to use your particular favourite set of rules. And is it really crusading when the arguments have been going on for six straight years?

CBM was promoted until EVERYONE believed that nobody should play without it. It doesnt necessarily mean its true.
And then it changed the game in such a dramatic way.

Yes. It changed the game in a dramatic way for the better. People want to play with it both because the balance between nations is better and because it removes a huge amount of mandatory micromanagement from the late game.

Would you really choose to play a middle age game as Marignon with gemgens enabled? In a game where C'Tis, Oceania, R'lyeh and Bandar Log are your opponents? After all, you have better troops than all of them, and if you really prefer the strategic game with gemgens you should be happy to play any nation in such an environment.

[vfb]

ComfortZone was the most recent vanilla game I joined, it started last Nov. Cleveland posted the OP, and it had 14 signups already the next day.

I agree that some of the early comments regarding gem gems in the "Clam Shortage" thread were out of line, especially the "go play with yourself" one. But if Xanatos had started a game that sounded more fun, with better parameters, and just stated right off some reasons that it was going to be include gem gens, he probably would have had more people join.

Kuritza, I didn't see any game thread in the MP forum started by you. "Clam Shortage" has got no graphs, it's all-age, and it's got no victory condition other than "last man standing/concession", on a 20+ player game. And it started off non-CBM and then switched to CBM, for additional unappealing wishy-washyness.

I think it's kind of ironical that you're complaining here about people not playing vanilla, but then you bailed on "Clam Shortage" because it included the vanilla nations LA Ermor and LA R'lyeh.

[Kuritza]

And with gemgens, it's exactly the same, with the caveat that the underwater races don't need the same number of provinces because they are harder to attack. Having more provinces with gem generators simply means that I'm going to be making more gemgens than you. The game breaks utterly when one can leverage incomes of hundreds of gems per turn.
No, not true, or rather not always true. Expansion IS important (every turn that I am not at war with somebody feels like a wasted turn once indies are eaten), of course, but if I invested more in diversification I can get an upper hand over somebody who invested everything into expansion.
Not true with CBM 1.6 anymore.

Really? Nobody has ever managed it? Nobody has ever won while playing C'Tis? Caelum? Jotunheim? Any of the majority of the nations who have average quality troops?
Really. Nobody managed to win for Bandar Log even with clams. Ctis and Jotunheim have OK troops, not to mention that most victories we know of were won with gemgens. MA Caelum has awesome combat mages while EA Caelum has thugs / combat mages.
But actually, I was responding to Baaltz's comment that somebody might show me the power of monkey troops. :)

Look, I'm happy to play in one or two games a year where generators decide the outcome, just as long as I get to play R'lyeh, C'Tis or Bandar log in each case. Because that essentially means that if I can convince my neighbours to act as a buffer between hostile nations and myself
for just long enough, then I'm going to win the game by forging clams.
Ha ha! :) Go win with Bandar Log. So far nobody did, over how many years? :))))
And, my oh my, not all games are won by Ctis and Rlyeh either. Not even by MA Pythium, although it kind of dominates MA. Maybe thats because clams are not the MAIN factor?

You could start your own games you know.
Then they will come and say OMG, dont ever start a game without CBM 1.6, vanilla is so ridiculously unbalanced, I've read it on the forums!


Yes. It changed the game in a dramatic way for the better.
For you, perhaps. But not for me. And deciding for others is like playing a God.

People want to play with it both because the balance between nations is better and because it removes a huge amount of mandatory micromanagement from the late game.
Right now, it has worse balance between nations (MA Oceania without clams? haha) and gemgens did NOT add to micromanagement that much, its a nonsense. I played this game too, remember? To make clams is to give several extra orders per turn. How many clams are you forging?.. 3? 4? Thats 6 to 8 extra clicks.

Would you really choose to play a middle age game as Marignon with gemgens enabled? In a game where C'Tis, Oceania, R'lyeh and Bandar Log are your opponents? After all, you have better troops than all of them, and if you really prefer the strategic game with gemgens you should be happy to play any nation in such an environment.

Sure, I'd make a God who can summon a naiad to clam for me, and rush Bandar Log. And, oh wonder, MA Marignon has won 2 games in HoF *with gemgens*, while Bandar Log has won none.
Thanks for proving my point.

I think it's kind of ironical that you're complaining here about people not playing vanilla, but then you bailed on "Clam Shortage" because it included the vanilla nations LA Ermor and LA R'lyeh.

Oh well. I sort of regret it, but you must understand - I'm rather tired of Ermor/Rlyeh alliances in games with many new players. Setsumi was the last drop for me.
Ermor is even worse in CBM anyway, since, you see, troops are more important there.

[Frozen Lama]

Right now, it has worse balance between nations (MA Oceania without clams? haha) and gemgens did NOT add to micromanagement that much, its a nonsense. I played this game too, remember? To make clams is to give several extra orders per turn. How many clams are you forging?.. 3? 4? Thats 6 to 8 extra clicks.



wait, are you kidding me? It all makes sense now. you have no idea what the micromanegment is. what about clicking every single guy with a clam and putting his pearl away one at a time because the pool button is a way to royally F*** yourself?

[Graeme Dice]

No, not true, or rather not always true. Expansion IS important (every turn that I am not at war with somebody feels like a wasted turn once indies are eaten), of course, but if I invested more in diversification I can get an upper hand over somebody who invested everything into expansion.
Not true with CBM 1.6 anymore.

Then maybe you need to learn to play better? Because every turn spent fighting when somebody else isn't fighting is another turn of income they've turned into castles and research mages that you haven't. So that could quite possibly be why you're not able to win. And really, if a player who is playing to rush can't beat somebody who is playing for a long term victory, then the balance is broken anyways.

Really. Nobody managed to win for Bandar Log even with clams.

Nobody has reported a win is what you mean. But then, nobody has reported a win with Vanheim either, and they are certainly not a weak nation, and only a single win has been reported for Ashdod. Clearly we can't really rely on the list of reported wins.

Ctis and Jotunheim have OK troops, not to mention that most victories we know of were won with gemgens. MA Caelum has awesome combat mages while EA Caelum has thugs / combat mages.

Now you're bringing mages into it. I thought you said that it was impossible to overcome poor national troops, and yet, now you're telling me that good combat mages can do so. Why don't you think through your statements before you make them?

And, my oh my, not all games are won by Ctis and Rlyeh either. Not even by MA Pythium, although it kind of dominates MA. Maybe thats because clams are not the MAIN factor?

In any game that lasts for sufficiently long, the winner will be the person who has forged more clams. There's some small caveats to that, given that some nations can survive wishes for armageddon better than others, but those aren't really that important.

Then they will come and say OMG, dont ever start a game without CBM 1.6, vanilla is so ridiculously unbalanced, I've read it on the forums!

Are you, in your extreme arrogance, not perhaps aware that there are plenty of people who have been playing Dominions for twice as long as you've been a member of this forum, and that these people are the primary ones behind the removal of gem generators? I've seen them ruin games for five years now, and I was ecstatic to see them finally removed.

For you, perhaps. But not for me. And deciding for others is like playing a God.

Please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that you aren't trying to tell others how they should play the game.

Right now, it has worse balance between nations (MA Oceania without clams? haha) and gemgens did NOT add to micromanagement that much, its a nonsense. I played this game too, remember? To make clams is to give several extra orders per turn. How many clams are you forging?.. 3? 4? Thats 6 to 8 extra clicks.

No, they aren't horrible to make. The micromanagement comes in the fact that you typically put them on scouts, who will sit with the hide order, and require you to press 'n' more than a hundred times in a single province. If you hold it down too long, thanks to there not being a previous button, you have to go through it all over again to make sure you aren't missing any commanders. Blood stones require you to move slaves between scouts unless you pay your anti-micro tax and build labs everywhere. Then there are fever fetishes, which are micromanagement hell.

Sure, I'd make a God who can summon a naiad to clam for me, and rush Bandar Log. And, oh wonder, MA Marignon has won 2 games in HoF *with gemgens*, while Bandar Log has won none.
Thanks for proving my point.

Are you aware that ignoring your opponent's arguments is usually considered to mean that you are conceding that they are correct? C'Tis and R'Lyeh have both won just as many games as Marignon in that survey. 44 games is far too small of a sample size to pull a proper distribution out of a dataset where there are are 23 possible victorious nations.

Personally I'd be happy to play Bandar Log against you on, say, Urgaia. But, since you've already indicated that you don't play the game anymore (Though why you hang around the forum then I don't know), I guess we'll have to skip that.

[Kuritza]

Who is kidding whom again?
Ah wait. You probably didnt realize you can remember (write in a text file if thats easier for you) guys with clams for returning and global buffs, pool in the beginning of every turn and just give these guys pearls again.
Thats what I do, and it works like a charm, and it doesnt take much time.

[Kuritza]

Then maybe you need to learn to play better? Because every turn spent fighting when somebody else isn't fighting is another turn of income they've turned into castles and research mages that you haven't. So that could quite possibly be why you're not able to win. And really, if a player who is playing to rush can't beat somebody who is playing for a long term victory, then the balance is broken anyways.
A classic l2p comment? Feel free to consider me a noob, its quite refreshing. :)
But its possible to build mages and fight at the same time, believe me or not.

Nobody has reported a win is what you mean. But then, nobody has reported a win with Vanheim either, and they are certainly not a weak nation, and only a single win has been reported for Ashdod. Clearly we can't really rely on the list of reported wins.
Yep, nobody has reported a win, its the same thing. And no, I have reported a win with Vanheim, but HoF is not updated anymore. Vanheim is not that uber-strong anyway, it is rather limited in its magic... and it cant clam. :) Hehe. LA Vanheim is much stronger in my opinion.
Ashdod is banned all too often now, so cant blame them for not winning.

Now you're bringing mages into it. I thought you said that it was impossible to overcome poor national troops, and yet, now you're telling me that good combat mages can do so. Why don't you think through your statements before you make them?
Of course I am. Combat mages are part of your military, arent they? And recruitable thugs too.

In any game that lasts for sufficiently long, the winner will be the person who has forged more clams. There's some small caveats to that, given that some nations can survive wishes for armageddon better than others, but those aren't really that important.
Not entirely true.

Are you, in your extreme arrogance, not perhaps aware that there are plenty of people who have been playing Dominions for twice as long as you've been a member of this forum, and that these people are the primary ones behind the removal of gem generators? I've seen them ruin games for five years now, and I was ecstatic to see them finally removed.
Perhaps you, in your extreme arrogance, are not aware that I was playing this game before I joined this forum, in another community, since Dominions II, and played Dominions I in single player? Now if you were playing this game before Dominions PPP... :P


Are you aware that ignoring your opponent's arguments is usually considered to mean that you are conceding that they are correct? C'Tis and R'Lyeh have both won just as many games as Marignon in that survey. 44 games is far too small of a sample size to pull a proper distribution out of a dataset where there are are 23 possible victorious nations.
Are you aware that you just ignored my arguments too? :)

Personally I'd be happy to play Bandar Log against you on, say, Urgaia. But, since you've already indicated that you don't play the game anymore (Though why you hang around the forum then I don't know), I guess we'll have to skip that.
Because I still play two games that already started? Once they are over, I will get everyone rid of my annoying presense. I didnt find this Urgaia game you mentioned, by the way. I was curious about its settings.
Or... you mean a 1vs1 game on a Urgaia map? And how would making a custom build for overcoming one opponent prove that monkey military is good enough without clams?

[Micah]

Again, see Artifacts. I had at least one gem gen on every single commander that wasn't fighting, two on most, and shuffling the damn things around when I needed to pull commanders for combat duty was really horrible. Oh, and armageddons were going off, so scouts and the like had to be armored, or beefier clam holders were required. Until you've been through a post-armageddon 300+ gen income/turn stalemate you're really not in a good position to argue the effect of gens on the high-level games that are played.

[Graeme Dice]

But its possible to build mages and fight at the same time, believe me or not.

Except that you can build more mages when you aren't fighting. Every 1500 gold that goes into an army is essentially another castle+lab that you could have built.

Yep, nobody has reported a win, its the same thing.

You still haven't dealt with the fact that out of 44 games, one would expect at least a few nations to have no wins.

Of course I am. Combat mages are part of your military, arent they? And recruitable thugs too.

They are part of your military. They are not part of your national troops.

Not entirely true.

Really? Then how do you plan to win if your opponent has 100+ clams while you have 50? He can dispel any globals you put up, and will always outproduce you. Never mind that there is absolutely no reason why a player that controls more than half the map shouldn't win in the first place.

Are you aware that you just ignored my arguments too?

How? Seeing as how Bandar Log's troops (Especially white ones) are nearly as good as Marignon's, and seeing as how Marignon won't have sufficient astral power in a rush situation to deal with the MR 8 on the other monkeys, I don't see how their troops are going to make a rush that easy. Plus, summoning Naiads to forge clams means that you won't have as many as the person who doesn't have to spend water gems on mages.

Because I still play this game in older games? Once they are over, I will get everyone rid of my annoying presense. I didnt find this Urgaia game you mentioned, by the way. I was curious about its settings.
Or... you mean a 1vs1 game on a Urgaia map? And how would making a custom build for overcoming one opponent prove that monkey military is good enough without clams?

No such game currently exists. And I'm also not foolish enough to think that a single duel game would make any difference to your opinion at all. What it would do is merely show that their military is not as pathetic as you seem to think it is. They have elephants, so they can expand about as fast as double blessed Mictlan, and their other troops are adequate.

[Kuritza]

Except that you can build more mages when you aren't fighting. Every 1500 gold that goes into an army is essentially another castle+lab that you could have built.
And still, its better to balance conquest with research. All-out turtling doesnt win, even now with clams.

You still haven't dealt with the fact that out of 44 games, one would expect at least a few nations to have no wins.
Actually, this is just what I mean. Out of 44 games (more now, actually), weakest nations have no wins.

They are part of your military. They are not part of your national troops.
Сasuistry?

Really? Then how do you plan to win if your opponent has 100+ clams while you have 50? He can dispel any globals you put up, and will always outproduce you. Never mind that there is absolutely no reason why a player that controls more than half the map shouldn't win in the first place.
If you turtled all the way as you suggested early (because every turn you spend fighting is a wasted turn, right?) while another player expanded, he will have much more gems from his lands, and probably a discount site which is often a game-winner.

How? Seeing as how Bandar Log's troops (Especially white ones) are nearly as good as Marignon's
Kek. :) A good one.

and seeing as how Marignon won't have sufficient astral power in a rush situation to deal with the MR 8 on the other monkeys, I don't see how their troops are going to make a rush that easy.

Fire magic maybe. Or massed x-bows against these bucklers. In my experience, Bandar Log are not much of a treat early.

Plus, summoning Naiads to forge clams means that you won't have as many as the person who doesn't have to spend water gems on mages.
True, you wont have as many. Still, quantity isnt always the main factor.
By the way... In order to clam, Bandar Log either need to summon a Yakshiny or Naga, or construction 6 and two boosters. (One of which requires water 3 to make, but thats a minor detail indeed).

No such game currently exists. And I'm also not foolish enough to think that a single duel game would make any difference to your opinion at all.

Yes, because duels and full games are quite different.

[vfb]

I have a feeling this discussion could be heading down Monkey PD Boulevard soon.

[Kuritza]

)))))))))))))

[alansmithee]

This makes no more sense now than it did the first 4 times you said it. How is one person dictating how everyone else will play? Please explain it to me, step by step. Without hysterics if possible. Apparently I just don't get it, because I've always thought if you didn't want to use CBM in a game you didn't have to. Has this changed without me knowing?

I just assumed people were making use of a completely optional mod provided free of charge by a member of this board because they wanted to.

Well, I can see how CBM being in 95% of the games would make it seem that way. Like was said, if a new person comes to the forums and sees it being used so much, is told constantly that it's the standard, etc they might not have the opportunity to make any other choice. I don't know about it being just one person, but if a small but prominent group trumpets it, many of the bystanders will just go along. Many people are probably largely indifferent, but would set up games just because the pro-CBM contingent is more vocal/active/whatever than the anti-CBM group.

[Quitti]

This whole "Everyone wants everyone to play CBM so it means newbies use CBM" is not true. Take this game (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44308) for example - It is a game set by newbies for mostly newbies, in which I suggested using CBM, but they preferred the vanilla game to that to actually learn the game as it was made, not how the community wants it to look. I'd still suggest starting playing with CBM if a new such game was hosted, but it's purely up to the host/players to decide the game settings, not the community. Of course, if community doesn't want to play a horribly unbalanced vanilla game (and admit it, some nations are simply very very much stronger than others still even in CBM), they won't. Simple as that. But I've yet to see anyone prove this point despite throwing such accusations around. I was in ComfortZone myself, but I was eliminated by three or four player alliance in the midgame, and it was definitely fun.

Kuritza, I know you've sworn quitting the game, but I'd really suggest you to start a non-CBM game if you want to play in one, or play with CBM 1.5 (with gemgens) or modify CBM 1.6 to enable gem gens again if you think that is the only point. You keep talking about how this change if wrong, when judged by most experienced players it is not. And like I've stated before, I don't agree with all the changes in the CBM, but it definitely makes the game much more fun to play with much more options and better overall balance.

[Mardagg]

I agree with Quitti.
I was a newb regarding DOM 3 MP games and joined 2 games about 2 months ago: One is vanilla,the other CBM 1.6.
The vanilla game filled very fast and consists of some newbies and some more experienced players also.
The consensus in the vanilla game(Casual EA) was not using CBM to get the original feeling of the game,the developers wanted it to be.
I must say,now that both games are around Turn 40,that personally,i find CBM much superior to vanilla.
I dont agree on all changes it makes,but on most.
I especially like how it increases the options on pretender design,which clearly is a big downside in vanilla,since most Pretender chassis are simply too weak and/or expensive to take.
And you have to consider,while CBM now removes Clams,most of the so called "clam nations" have been slightly improved in other areas or simply benefit more than others from the overall balance changes e.g. better early summoning spells via cheap dragon master.

Ive played a lot of DOm2 MP End games and i know what it means to battle it out with hundreds of clam holders.
Turns taking 12 hours+ mainly because its so tough to micro all the artifacts/gem gens and deciding how to spend those 300+ gems the most effective way.Thats not fun,thats a pain.

[Psycho]

The CMB doesn't balance nations. Especially with the removal of gem gems (which I am all for BTW) the nations are unbalanced in a completely different way than in the vanilla game - bandar, machaka and the like weakened, blood nations made stronger due to fewer gems (which can probably be offset by higher magic settings), etc. But the fact is that regarding nations, CBM is as unbalanced as the vanilla. Magic system is better with lesser summons cheaper (sometimes too cheap) to make them worthwhile. Still, I'd recommend new players to start with the vanilla version.

Oh, and BTW I think Bogus and co. can be used with their orders, but orders shouldn't be copied to other units.

[Kuritza]

Could you explain, by the way, which nations are so unbalanced in Vanilla compared to CBM? Mictlan? Now that it retains blood magic while gemgens are void its possibly stronger than ever.
Buffs to 'clam nations'... you mean the naiad warriors? ))))))))))))))))) Its the best joke ever, really.
Oh, and the hero blades. Because national troops should remain important, and woe to thee if yours suck.

I wholeheartedly agree that pretender options are better in CBM, and thats why I preferred CBM to Vanilla myself until now.

[Torin]

I am under the impression that CBM favors early SC pretenders wich is defenitely the least fun idea of a game.

*Titan like pretenders have reduced new path costs and sometimes reduced cost overall
*const 0 under CBM has most equipement (swords, shields, etc) to free early research towards Alt

So its such a no-brainer that you will rarely see anything else in MP with CBM.

[llamabeast]

So its such a no-brainer that you will rarely see anything else in MP with CBM.

Er, I think that's just entirely untrue.

[Squirrelloid]

Torin:
That is definitely not my experience with CBM at all.

Nations that want a big bless still take a big bless.

Some starting SC chasses have had their costs increased to make them balanced. Gorgon and PoD come to mind.

Rainbow chasses are generally buffed, making them much stronger choices.

Titan chasses are generally horrible awake SCs. They often need equipment to SC, and you may or may not have the gem income to forge any early. What titans are good at is (1) mid game SCing and (2) bless chasses because they combine a couple paths with high base dominion.

The good starting SC chasses are either made worse in CBM or left unchanged for the most part. Wyrm is unchanged afaik, PoD, Gorgon, and probably Moloch are more expensive, and so on. Cyclops has also been nerfed, and he can potentially SC out of the box (although he really wants a weapon if nothing else).

[Mardagg]

The CMB doesn't balance nations. Especially with the removal of gem gems (which I am all for BTW) the nations are unbalanced in a completely different way than in the vanilla game - bandar, machaka and the like weakened, blood nations made stronger due to fewer gems (which can probably be offset by higher magic settings), etc. But the fact is that regarding nations, CBM is as unbalanced as the vanilla. Magic system is better with lesser summons cheaper (sometimes too cheap) to make them worthwhile. Still, I'd recommend new players to start with the vanilla version.



Its far too early to tell imo.
CBM 1.6 is for sure not the end of the road.
After lots of games being played out under it,we might see the whole impact no gem gens has on this complex environment and might get a very well balanced CBM 1.7.

For me ,Astral Magic was way too overpowered due to gem gens.
Its all about counters.
There are several ways to counter a strong blood nation for example...since it has to actually defend its territory in order to keep the economy going.Also you cant alchemize your blood slaves and most summons are limited,with often several blood nations fighting for the uniques.
Talking about clam hording nations with astral magic,what can you do against them if you dont have lots of clams and/or decent astral magic yourself?
Now with the bigger maps in Dom3 ,its often very tough to do something against that nation you know that is clam hoarding,but is turtling at the other end of the map.
And those horders can easily use their clams to alchemize to death or Nature,too,for countless tartarians.
So,what i am saying,basically you need water+Nature and probably good astral to stand a chance in any medium to bigger sized maps with gem gens.That IS definately taking away a lot of strategic options for most nations

Talking about Machaka is interesting.
They dont got any Astral and are more in Fever Fetish forging than Clam hoarding.
I seriously think Machaka does a lot better in no gem gens games now simply because other nations cant forge clams.

Btw, i would like to see the fever fetish remaining in the game,with maybe slightly cost increase , anyways.
In addition there has to be some earth booster instead of the blood stone.

[Kuritza]

Talking about clam hording nations with astral magic,what can you do against them if you dont have lots of clams and/or decent astral magic yourself?

You can get clams and/or decent astral magic yourself. I did it with Bogarus, Vanheim, LA Man etc, you just have to plan ahead. And it doesnt exclude all other possibilities, as far as I am concerned, except killing everyone with just your superiour troops around turn 50.

[Mardagg]

[QUOTE=Kuritza;723249
You can get clams and/or decent astral magic yourself. I did it with Bogarus, Vanheim, LA Man etc, you just have to plan ahead. And it doesnt exclude all other possibilities, as far as I am concerned, except killing everyone with just your superiour troops around turn 50.[/QUOTE]


That means every single game is built around forging clams,right?
Every single time you build a pretender regardless of the nation u have to think about how to get clams and to cast astral spells.
And even if you plan ahead that way every time,you end up without any chance vs the real astral or clam powerhouses that dont have to rely on path boosters/lucky indie mages for forging or the pretender/indie mages for casting astral rituals.

This is exactly why many nations are nearly unplayable on big maps under vanilla if you are up vs competent opponents.

No gem gens means much more room for nation specific strategies.
Its time to plan ahead DIFFERENTLY,relying on clam hoarding isnt the game winner anymore.

[fantasma]

but what about late game with limited gems? You'd probably see dragged out stalemates until somebody lucks in keeping a game-winning global up? Everybody is forced to invest in blood? Castling every province to keep the defense bonus and get spawning summons everywhere?

I don't see any chance to end the game unless there is something completely unbalancing in which you have to invest initially but that develops into an unbeatable juggernaught.

To my - limited - experience clams are competing for much needed N gems, so you give up performance mid-game to achieve the effect. If it were that they cost 15N5W or (15N15W for more difficult path requirements) the initial investment is steep enough so that you have to chose to thug out another guy or forge a clam; ditch the earlier parts of a game just to get to the requirements for eventually snowballing returns.

Some players will do at the risk of getting eliminated early, some will not and might get rolled over in the end. But that is a strategic choice.

To sum it up, what do you think should the end game look like and by what means do you think one should decide the winner?

[Sombre]

So its such a no-brainer that you will rarely see anything else in MP with CBM.

This is completely untrue. The titan class pretenders were boosted because they were really bad deals in cbm. They are still not a good choice if you want an early SC. Midgame with decent magic and scales, sure.

[Mardagg]

[QUOTE=fantasma;723253]but what about late game with limited gems? You'd probably see dragged out stalemates until somebody lucks in keeping a game-winning global up? Everybody is forced to invest in blood? Castling every province to keep the defense bonus and get spawning summons everywhere?

QUOTE]

You would see....diversity!

And about limited gems...e.g. 200 gems per turn should be still enough for lot of end game action+ you can play bigger maps or increase magic sites if you want more.

-Games may last longer on average,but since the turns take less time to play without microing gem gens,thats ok imo.
-Blood isnt nearly as game breaking as having say 300+astral income per turn.Skipping Blood,or only going very small into it, is perfectly viable imo.Also ,as i said earlier,if more players compete for Blood,Blood becomes weaker bc of the limited summons+you cant alchemize it.
-Game winning globals are very tough to cast without clams.
You would risk to be a lot behind in other areas to do that.
Dont forget,u can still alchemize your other gems for astral if you have to dispel that nasty global,the opponent just put up.
-tartarian commanders will be fewer in numbers,bc wishing for the chalice will be tough,and GoH will only be possible for good nature nations.
-National troops will be more useful in end game since everyone has less powerful magic troops.
-Expansion will probably be more important right from the start,since more provinces=more gems.
Waging war early will become more profitable again,but turtling still remains an option because of superior research.
-Players losing a war and wishing for armageddon before going AI wont be seen.

[Belac]

You would see....diversity!

And about limited gems...e.g. 200 gems per turn should be still enough for lot of end game action+ you can play bigger maps or increase magic sites if you want more.

-Games may last longer on average,but since the turns take less time to play without microing gem gens,thats ok imo.
-Blood isnt nearly as game breaking as having say 300+astral income per turn.Skipping Blood,or only going very small into it, is perfectly viable imo.Also ,as i said earlier,if more players compete for Blood,Blood becomes weaker bc of the limited summons+you cant alchemize it.
-Game winning globals are very tough to cast without clams.
You would risk to be a lot behind in other areas to do that.
Dont forget,u can still alchemize your other gems for astral if you have to dispel that nasty global,the opponent just put up.
-tartarian commanders will be fewer in numbers,bc wishing for the chalice will be tough,and GoH will only be possible for good nature nations.
-National troops will be more useful in end game since everyone has less powerful magic troops.
-Expansion will probably be more important right from the start,since more provinces=more gems.
Waging war early will become more profitable again,but turtling still remains an option because of superior research.
-Players losing a war and wishing for armageddon before going AI wont be seen.

That sounds awesome, actually. Late-game would be more different for each nation, and nations wouldn't be locked into all the same strategies.

[Baalz]

Yep, I called it. Fell deep into troll territory.

Dominions without gem gens isn't worth playing because you have no options

Everyone is forced to play with the latest version of CBM despite the fact many people wish they could just play vanilla

Nations with troops having obvious weaknesses are unplayable

Come on now, what's the point of trying to argue with somebody who vehemently asserts and defends positions such as these? I would offer to show him that monkey troops can be far from worthless but its pointless. Bandar vs Marginon? Sure, just fight under iron bane for a great equalizer. Toss in a couple other support spells and watch markatas tear the living crap out of dual blessed Knights of the Chalice while any Marignon support mage with more than F1 evaporates under magic duels anytime they step out of a castle. Xbows? Sure, they're pretty good against unsupported monkey PD, but you do realize Bandar has access to everything from arrow fend, storm, mist, and battle fortune to chaff spells like swarm and howl, right? Those xbows firing every other turn doing much for you now against a big swarm of berzerking monkeys? What in the holy hell do you think you're gonna bring to any real fight that is going to win, much less dominate?

But, like I said, it's a pointless discussion. Obviously he's got it all figured out and not interested in considering playing Bandar in anyway other than spamming clams until you have a never ending stream of Rudras. Or, more likely, he's trolling.

[Sombre]

No he'd like to troll but he can't because a select group of players have completely taken out that part of the forums and gang up on anyone who says otherwise.

[fantasma]

Seriously, don't you think that without gem-gens game will drag out endlessly without anybody gaining significant power to win the game, especially on bigger maps?

Btw, I like the monkeys.

[Baalz]

No, that's rather a large part of getting rid of gem gens - you can actually impact people's income by attacking them thus making it easier to end the game.

[MaxWilson]

The CMB doesn't balance nations. Especially with the removal of gem gems (which I am all for BTW) the nations are unbalanced in a completely different way than in the vanilla game - bandar, machaka and the like weakened, blood nations made stronger due to fewer gems (which can probably be offset by higher magic settings), etc.

As an aside, if you want to weaken blood magic you would probably increase both magic site % and income/resources/supply %. By linearly scaling up everything EXCEPT population, you are effectively just decreasing population, which means weaker blood nations. Conversely, on minimal-income map settings, blood nations would dominate since they're the only ones who can efficiently convert population into units.

-Max

[LDiCesare]

As an aside, if you want to weaken blood magic you would probably increase both magic site % and income/resources/supply %. By linearly scaling up everything EXCEPT population, you are effectively just decreasing population, which means weaker blood nations. Conversely, on minimal-income map settings, blood nations would dominate since they're the only ones who can efficiently convert population into units.

-Max
Actually, magic site % has an effect on blood hunt if tests run on ForgeOfGodhood, so changing it wouldn't strengthen nor weaken blood economy.

[Micah]

It's funny how everyone manages to leave Niefelheim and Hinnom out of the list of nations that are hurt by gens being removed, since they're great at making them. It's not like the devs had some master plan where the crappy nations were the only ones that could make the gens, plenty of the really good nations have access as well, which means that a lot of the hand-wringing over the supposed nerfing that "clam nations" take is overwrought, since it's a lot closer to 0-sum than the alarmists would have everyone believe. (Though admittedly giving everyone more resources to work with does help weaker nations more than strong ones.) Plus it's really closer to a 0-sum game in general since everyone gets into clamming sooner or later anyhow. On the other side of the coin, some of the weak nations (MA Agartha is the poster-child here, but EA Agartha and LA Man have pretty solid claims as well) have NO access to any of the gens on their national mage paths, and they're the nations that are gonna have the hardest time affording more pretender time to diversify into the gens.

As Baalz said, removing gens is designed to link resources to holding territory, which is designed to force people to move their armies and try to hold territory instead of being able to turtle in one province with 300 gems a turn coming in. Artifacts had gens and did an admirable job getting bogged down, and Preponderance had to be dragged out back and shot because of the crazy gem spiral that developed (I was looking at hitting 40 clams/turn, which was about the most I could manage due to the 50-slot lab limit.) Seems like the new generation of games is doing a lot better in terms of progressing along.

And to paraphrase Zeldor: Gens are a really lousy way to balance weak nations, why don't we just mod them so they don't suck and are interesting to play instead of introducing a really bad mechanic that happens to help them out a little more than other nations?

[Kuritza]

Come on now, what's the point of trying to argue with somebody who vehemently asserts and defends positions such as these? I would offer to show him that monkey troops can be far from worthless but its pointless. Bandar vs Marginon? Sure, just fight under iron bane for a great equalizer. Toss in a couple other support spells and watch markatas tear the living crap out of dual blessed Knights of the Chalice while any Marignon support mage with more than F1 evaporates under magic duels anytime they step out of a castle. Xbows? Sure, they're pretty good against unsupported monkey PD, but you do realize Bandar has access to everything from arrow fend, storm, mist, and battle fortune to chaff spells like swarm and howl, right? Those xbows firing every other turn doing much for you now against a big swarm of berzerking monkeys? What in the holy hell do you think you're gonna bring to any real fight that is going to win, much less dominate?

We have listened to yet another round of Baalz's theorycrafting, which is always very interesting and contains some valid ideas, yet sometimes just doesnt work. How come that nobody, NOBODY made it work for Bandar Log yet, huh? Unstoppable horde of wild apes, a sight to be remembered... to bad it just doesnt happen. Note that I am talking about Bandar because I have some first-hand knowledge about them in MP; there are other nations in more or less same state. Good luck winning with monkey military without massed summons against anything with real armies, really.

Another nice way of proving somebody wrong is to declare him a troll. Hi guys, my nickname is Kuritza and I am a troll. :) Yeah, sure. Fast expansion as the only way to win and nations with weaker military being reduced to nothing, its ok because some old players say so. For other old players too. And I am a just troll. I dont mind, well, its quite... funny. ))

Now for being constructive... one possible solution would be to ask Devs for another patch, hard-limiting each gemgen to ~50 (or something like that) per nation. Or, even better, maybe a maximum of ~100 (75, 50) gemgens of all types, so you arent oblidged to make exactly 50 bloodstones, fetishes and clams to compete with others.
Problem solved.

[Micah]

BL isn't an easy nation to play, so I'm not surprised they haven't been leveraged that effectively. Regardless, I'm confused as to why they're even under discussion here...they don't have any capital W income for clams, no national E income for hammers, can only site search both paths manually at level one, and need to take a detour to conj-4 to get access to hammer forgers and clammers, barring a sub 1% chance of Rishi randoms, and don't have real access to the other two gens, so they seem like they come out ahead of the curve by getting rid of gens.

[Sombre]

We have listened to yet another round of Baalz's theorycrafting, which is always very interesting and contains some valid ideas, yet sometimes just doesnt work. How come that nobody, NOBODY made it work for Bandar Log yet, huh? Unstoppable horde of wild apes, a sight to be remembered... to bad it just doesnt happen. Note that I am talking about Bandar because I have some first-hand knowledge about them in MP; there are other nations in more or less same state. Good luck winning with monkey military without massed summons against anything with real armies, really.

Monkey nations can NEVER win because of their PD they can NEVER win NEVER.

[Kuritza]

Yes, they fall out here amongst other things. ))))) But at least they benefit from clams greatly.
Before the clam nerf, I saw them as an initially weak, potentially very dangerous race with many interesting possibilities. Some of them I have found in Baalz's guide, but sticking to them as your main strategy would be plain suicidal. With some luck, monkeys may even leave the ranks of chronic losers before its too late for them and clams are gone... alas, there's a small obstacle represented by Toran's Pythium in their way. )))))

Monkey nations can NEVER win because of their PD they can NEVER win NEVER.
Only Bandar Log. ))) Others have already scored some victories.

[Maerlande]

The problem is that people haven't realized that Ghanas are the go to troops for Bandar Log and all this theorizing just misses the point.

Bandar Log is a death nation. D9 white ones rule the world.

Or really crank up the action with B9D9. I've tested it against Agartha and Oceania and it rocks. Wins every time in single player. Although I did have to boost the AI's by setting independents to 9.

[Squirrelloid]

Someone really needs to conduct some statistics on the HoF.

In particular, I would imagine BL has not won a game almost entirely due to the impression that they are weak, and thus occur in significantly less games than nations which are perceived as strong. If we looked at how many games BL failed to win that it actually could win, I'd be willing to bet you could reject the claim that they have done significantly worse than expectation. Heck, even assuming they've been in *every MA game ever recorded* you probably still couldn't demonstrate they've done worse than expectation given the sample size.

I would take BL over Eriu any day, clams or no clams. Heck, I'd take BL over a number of nations in MA.

[Sombre]

I don't think it's really necessary to respond to a claim based on the HoF record of wins. It's anecdotal evidence at best.

[vfb]

Some people end games in a draw rather than slog through the extreme suck at the end, just to get their names on some list. The dom3 gui does not provide for effective management of large amounts of stuff, and it seems more like work than play once you get to a point where: you have to watch how much you are forging, in order not to fill up your lab; you have to track future gear for 3 or 4 thugs; you have to refill used gems on BF/BE-casting mages; you have to hire a Elludian Moon Mage in province #333, a Circle Master in province #421, and a Adept in #127 -- none of which provinces you've got a fort in anyway.

Back to the point: there was an MP game, "Blessing", that ended this way, and Kailasa was pretty much rocking the world with a large number of astral summons. Even though they had the Monkey PD.

[Quitti]

Kailasa is a very strong nation with clams included. Either way, 43 recorded games, assuming that 40% (optimistic) is MA is 17 games, MA has 23 nations, BL is one of them (4.3% of the nations are BL), they are percieved to be a weak nation by many (and they do require skill to play correctly) so let's say if one game averages bit more than half the nations of MA, and bit less than half of those include BL, that'd mean they are in about 6-7 of the games even listed in HoF.

23 nations. 43 games in which 7 BL has taken part of. They haven't won, when there are:
a) Ashdod
b) Pythium
c) Shinuyama
d) other strong nations, include your preference
in the game.

Now if I've learned anything about statistics, a sample size of that amount (7 games out of 20 viable to even consideration out of which 4.3% of the nations has never won) doesn't quarantee a good place to do assumptions upon. Especially in a game like dom3 where luck plays a part of the game.

The point with the 'BL not in HoF = it's bad nation' is moot. Thank you.

[Sombre]

Since quitti likes being deliberately obtuse, I have decided to be clear.

The totally useless PD of Bandar Log nations is why it has never registered a single win in multi-player. The mages change, and troops are, of course, replacable, but it has never registered a win. NOT ONCE. Why?

Because for 230 gold, or less, you can create an "invincible raiding force" that will defeat any Bandar Log PD below 20. After 20 the one Bandar monkey per point makes things mildly more difficult, but not much. You'll probably need 10-20 more gold in archers per point to route all the little monkeys which will route the bandar(you don't ever have to fight the bandar, you just have to make sure they route quickly). That's it. Raid the hell out of them. Easy.

For reference, this is the pathetic Ape PD per point:
Some Markata "soldiers"(Morale 7, Melee Damage 8, yes 8, 0 protection, 5 hitpoints)
Some Markata "archers"(Morale 7, Bow Damage 6, yes 6, 0 protection, 5 hitpoints)
1/2 Per Point(YES THAT'S ONE EVERY OTHER POINT) Atavi "Soldier"(Morale 8, Protection 1)
1/2 Per Point(YES, AGAIN, THAT'S ONE EVERY OTHER POINT!) Atavi "Archer"(Morale 8, Protection 1)

I'm just wondering if it's intentional that PD prevent Bandar Log, in any game, with any settings, from winning. Ever.

Also, if you will notice, KissBlade, the only dedicated Patala (a very similar nation to Bandar Log) Player, has built his entire nation around anti-raiding power. That is, he gets the Vampire Queen. This is the correct thing for KissBlade to do.

HOWEVER, IT IS PATHETIC THAT THE ENTIRE PRETENDER DESIGN BE DETERMINED BY WEAK PD.

[Baalz]

I thought you were being sarcastic Sombre, but it seems you really believe that? By that logic Eriu should win almost every game they're in because they can smear almost everybody's PD left and right with cheap recruit anywhere thugs. Bandar Log is a challenging nation, no argument, but its disadvantages are far from being unable to be overcome. I must say I'm getting a bit frustrated by the cursory dismissal of suggested strategies I have *ACTUALLY USED* to defeat people as being unrealistic. I'd be happy to duel somebody who thinks Bandar is unwinnable so it can be demonstrated to me what it is that I'm missing. Should be easy enough since they can't ever win, right? I shouldn't even be able to put up a real fight I'd assume.

My challenge:
2 players
Me: Bandar Log
You: your choice of C'tis, Agartha, Machaka, Abysia, Jotunheim, Arco, Ermor, Vanheim, Pangea, Ulm, Shinuyama, Marignon, Mictlan
Research: easy
# of provinces: 50, randomly generated
CBM 1.6
All other settings default

[Maerlande]

Monkey PD is fine. You just need to station 2 or 3 D9 blessed Apsaras in every province with an indy priest. Morale problems solved and you get that wonderful D9 banish spam.

[Foodstamp]

Some of you dewds should go back to IRC and just talk about people in private rather than bully them in public.

[Quitti]

Back to IRC? Madness! That's where we devise our most prized stratagems! It's only here you'll see them put into action!

[namad]

gem-gens were broken. gem-gens were solely responsible for many players quitting games and many games ending in draws. gem-gens will only work on small enough maps with small enough numbers of players (so form a small game and use 1.6cbm with gemgens reinstated)...


as far as unintentionally nerfing or buffing nations well... most of the nations which are bad and got nerfed too much "unintentionally" also have had many many many many balance patches coming from cbm too!

bad nations that rely on clams are WORSE in vanilla than in cbm1.6 ... oceania commanders costs reduced and hinnom commanders costs increase etc etc etc... and i'm sure cbm 1.8 will have even better balance



gem-gens are a dominating strategy of unimaginable power... when you play on a large map and 5different players are casting wish for gems everyturn and then some wars break out and 10armageddons get cast and then theres no more income left anywhere in the world and no more troops because of upkeep ... yeah... that'll be fun why don't we just all play games where there is 0income 0resources0supply and 100magical site settings

oh and then theres the player without gemgens who is winning in every category and starts attacking players with gem gens.... he takes half their provinces and then he realizes that they have 10times his gem income despite having half his gem income on the graphs and then he gets attacked by 100tarts being lead by 10fully geared tarts



also it's very common for games to be more popular with mods than without... things like x3, sev, moo3, ja2, beta-mount-blade ...etc...

years of testing and hundreds of hours of work into fanmade patches almost always improve games!

[Lingchih]

Wow. Since the last time I posted, this has gone from being a discussion of using Bogus' copied orders, to a discussion/argument on gemgens, and then of course to monkey PD. This is like the all-in-one topic of all time!

[sansanjuan]

Wow. Since the last time I posted, this has gone from being a discussion of using Bogus' copied orders, to a discussion/argument on gemgens, and then of course to monkey PD. This is like the all-in-one topic of all time!

Crazy indeed. Shows there is still a lot of passion out there for a game that was launched in 2006. The pretty models adorning the Shrapnel Banners seem quite passionate about the game too. Takes the sting out of being double teamed when you imagine your opponents might be the ladies from the Banner ads. ;)

I was also going to ask if hiring and toasting indy priests with "Life after death" in effect is considered mainstream or an exploit? But... I'm... not... sure... I should....
-ssj

[Kuritza]

Clever Baalz, very clever indeed. :)
50 provinces for two players and easy research, so you automatically skip the most dangerous phase... just pick Bandar Log in a real game with old-timers, and win it. My respect towards you will skyrocket then - though I bet my two games will end earlier.

[Baalz]

So the most dangerous part is the part where clams have no effect? I don't even know what you're arguing, and apparently neither do you.


Who cares if magic sites are common, if national troops remain important throughout the whole game, and your national troops suck? Bandar Log without clams against Shinuyama! Ha ha, Machaka against double-bless Mictlan! Eriu against MA Vanheim! MA Oceania against anything! All strategies revolve against just one thing - imba fast expansion. There is just no alternate route.

I came up with what I thought was a scenario to show that against some fairly fast expanders who would presumably out expand Bandar you could still be competitive. In a time frame where according to you lack of gem gens would cripple a nation who has "troops that suck". I specifically include every nation you mention here as a potential challenger, with the considerable advantage of knowing ahead of time exactly what I'm playing...and you think I stacked the odds in my favor? I'm answering the assertion that my suggested strategies "just don't work" and "nobody has ever [or can ever] win with Bandar", and I think it's a pretty big stretch to try and claim I contrived an artificially favorable scenario.

So, I call BS and ask for you (or anybody) to prove to me the ludicrous claim that Bandar Log "can NEVER win NEVER". Should be easy to do, no? All I've got is a bunch of theorycraft which doesn't really work.

[Kuritza]

I have promised not to play anymore. I dont say such things lightly, hm?

Most dangerous part is when you have no clams and no research. Just a bunch of apes.
And 1vs1 duels are different from real games with lots of players, you know that. Even where your tricks can win one war, they wont be enough to bring you victory in a real MP environment.
I know monkeys can win one early war with just 2 or 3 kinnaras (perfectly possible without clams) and perhaps some yakshas/nagas. I did it myself, you know, before I started bombarding you with golems and Kinnaras in Lapis. I didnt start that game with a ton of clams.
Problems start later (or before).

And I dont have to prove you anything. Say what you might, but when Pythium has over 7 victories in MA, Pangaea has at least 5, Abyssia-Shinuyama-Jotunheim-Caelum have 3 victories each and Bandar Log has ZERO, it has everything to do with nations power. Kek, Bandar Log didnt even win Cripple Fight. :) If you want to prove otherwise - go ahead, do it. Prove us that your theorycrafting about unstoppable markatas works in real MP.

[vfb]

:fire: :troll:

:cheers:

[Trumanator]

I'd like to point out that the first Cripple Fight actually didn't include a fair number of nations that are almost universally perceived as weaksauce, including both Oceanias, Marverni, and both Mans. It included some nations that I'm pretty sure weren't considered weak, like Gath and EA Aby. HoF means very little I think.

Since it used CBM 1.5, there were gemgens, and they are nearly the only reason MA Atlantis won, since he was able to simply turtle underwater and still maintain an income of several hundred pearls.

[Zeldor]

Lingchih:

You forgot about Setsumi drama :P

Trumanator:

Exactly, Abysia had clams and stones too though. He did not used them so well. I wasted few hundred S too probably. And there was Ermor with clamhoarding too. It was extremely lame - Atlantis with no N mages at all. So strat is to empower on W guy in N, summon Naiad, forge clams, cast maelstrom, get more naiads, get more clams, put nexus, get seraphs -> win.



There are some national changes that had to be in 1.6 but did not make it. I am sure there will be many more national balance things in cbm 1.7. Maybe QM won't be afraid to do it now [as taking gemgens out was rather risky thing, but most people support it now]. There are some real things to be done, for example lowering MA Pythium cap gem income.

[Kuritza]

Oh, since you mentioned Setsumi (actually, I dont think it was brought up here yet, you're the first) - I hope LA Ermor will be buffed in CBM 1.7, by lowering the cost of Spectators and Dusk Elders. )))))) Chaff is so weak and useless, after all. :P

[Gandalf Parker]

As with many of the absolute statements about this sucks or this always wins it always tends to break down into but of course I meant this size game with this number of players on this size map using this mod and this winning condition.

Thats one of the problems I have with discussions of balance. They tend to pigeonhole the game into specifics which knock out some of the balancing features, and then either complain about them or try to "fix" them. And any mention of games outside those parameters are tossed aside.

[Baalz]

/me breaks chair over Kuritza's back

Even if your tricks can win you a fight with a woman, they'll never work against a *real* man. I have laid waste to countless nations, the bodies of my enemies block the sun in a towering pile including several with monkey shaped footprints on their face. The most dangerous part of the game is the part where you rumble with Baalz. And I don't have to prove that, I just have to say it with enough spit flying out my mouth!

/me throws down the mic and flexes from the top ropes.

Ps. Nobody up for a duel? :( Lots of time off for xmas...

[Kuritza]

Cant say I understood what you meant by this, but I distinctly remember MY monkeys killing something Baalz-shaped, hammer-wielding and slightly insane from that Dimensional Rod... All thanks to NOT following your advise to rely on apes as your main fighting force. ))))))

[sansanjuan]

/me breaks chair over Kuritza's back

Even if your tricks can win you a fight with a woman, they'll never work against a *real* man. I have laid waste to countless nations, the bodies of my enemies block the sun in a towering pile including several with monkey shaped footprints on their face. The most dangerous part of the game is the part where you rumble with Baalz. And I don't have to prove that, I just have to say it with enough spit flying out my mouth!

/me throws down the mic and flexes from the top ropes.

Ps. Nobody up for a duel? :( Lots of time off for xmas...

B,
I'd love to blitz over Xmas but the wife would kill me. I'm sure I'd be beat like a rented mule but that's how you learn. ;)

PS I noticed your avatar has the same look/build as the Nav'i from the movie avatar. I think you may have legal recourse on Mr. Cameron...

-ssj

http://mimg.ugo.com/200812/8356/avatar-navi-concept-NOV-02.jpg

[Maerlande]

Greetings from IRC. We wish to proclaim that our thuggery is predominately focused on each other in IRC. Only rarely does it spill over into these forums. This discussion was just too juicy to drop.

Also, a LOT of us on IRC play monkeys. I personally am in 3 MP games with monkeys atm, one each age. They rock. Just don't buy much PD.

[Foodstamp]

Boo hoo hoo clams have pearls :cry: .

[Tolkien]

Ps. Nobody up for a duel? :( Lots of time off for xmas...
I would but,
1) I never blitzed before,
2) college apps. <_<
3) You would beat me like a red-headed stepchild no matter what nations we used. >_>

[Baalz]

Did you, per chance, play DotA in WCIII? Good players tend to play in closed, or semi-closed, leagues - because playing with leavers and feeders who compose majority of public games is just not fun.

At the risk of sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong - this explains so much! DotA has the absolute worst community I have ever experience in a MP computer game, and that's saying quite a bit. If you don't play your character the way the other players expect you to you'll generally be derided as a newb and looser in the most derisive pubescent terminology, most likely followed by a vote to kick you. Heaven forbid you pick a skill that 'everyone knows' is sub optimal, or try out a character you haven't played before in a random pickup game. The game was kind of fun, but I couldn't stand the community - even when you're winning its just no fun to have harpies abrasively second guessing you every time you make the slightest mistake. This explains a lot about your positions Kuritza, you come from a very different world with different expectations about gaming and appropriate behavior.

[Tolkien]

I dislike DotA intensely. I prefer AoM, if I'm searching for an AoS; heck, I'd rather play Battleships.

[rdonj]

DotA has the absolute worst community I have ever experience in a MP computer game...

Oh god, yes.

[KissBlade]

Title of thread should be renamed "DoTA and their thuggery players".

[namad]

that's when there was this kitty cat with lasers that lasers glow when raptors shrieking fish

[Foodstamp]

This motivational poster I stumbled across reminds me of this thread:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9182&stc=1&d=1261706502

[Quitti]

DotA has the absolute worst community I have ever experience in a MP computer game...

Unfortunately, I'll have to agree. The game/scenario is fine though when played with a couple of friends.

</IRC Thuggism>

[Kuritza]

At the risk of sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong - this explains so much! DotA has the absolute worst community I have ever experience in a MP computer game, and that's saying quite a bit. If you don't play your character the way the other players expect you to you'll generally be derided as a newb and looser in the most derisive pubescent terminology, most likely followed by a vote to kick you. Heaven forbid you pick a skill that 'everyone knows' is sub optimal, or try out a character you haven't played before in a random pickup game. The game was kind of fun, but I couldn't stand the community - even when you're winning its just no fun to have harpies abrasively second guessing you every time you make the slightest mistake. This explains a lot about your positions Kuritza, you come from a very different world with different expectations about gaming and appropriate behavior.

There are very different communities even it Dota, Baalz. In some closed leagues, you get banned for flaming others IMMEDIATELY. But yes, there are expectations there. Nobody will say a word to you, other than 'respect', if you do well by playing your hero in a weird way, but if you start helping your enemies, you wont get a good feedback from your team for sure. If you start actively 'feeding', like helping others win if you know what I mean, you also get banned, without any flames or harsh words. And it keeps everyone happy, except these who would spoil the game by misbehaving in any way.
Oh, and you probably had such a bad impression because you played in publics. Just as I finally got fed up by open Dominions games, where every now and then somebody decides to backstab you, because somebody else is winning anyway, or even to help that guy win, or because you killed him in another game, etc.
Too bad there's no place to learn Dota other than in publics. Now thats sad indeed, publics are terrible in all regards, including the language used.

But that's off topic indeed. As for me being a troll - read what people started respondig to my initial post that gemgen-removing shouldnt have been made an integral part of CBM everyone plays now, or first comments to Clam Shortage for that matter, and tell me if its me who is trolling or posting disrespectful things. Same untolerant attitude, from everyone.
At least I have an excuse of leaving community soon anyway.

I would be glad to try a no-gemgens game, were it a separate mod. It was an easy thing to do, and I even suggested it back then. It kills some already weak nations, it buffs some already strong nations, but that can be fixed in further versions of CBM indeed, provided that QM wants it. I've got an impression he's fine with crappy Oceania, and everyone considers Bandar Log a fine nation with great military despite all statistical evidence, because they can still kill an opponent or two time after time.
Yet, now CBM just cuts off the strategies you guys dont like, and leaves no choice other that 'dont use CBM at all and try to find enough people for a vanilla game'. This point still stands true despite all your provocative claims about me.

[namad]

no gemgens was and is a separate mod.... for a couple months people downloaded it separately... it was just so insanely popular that the main popular download now happens to include it... it's extremely easy to set a game of gemgen included cbm up still ...

[Baalz]

[too much holiday cheer]
Meh, my own person experience was mostly in Demigod - which apparently drafted almost exactly the same community (and mirrored my experience when I tried DotA). I played very well, was in the top 10 players worldwide in a couple categories, but I kept getting idiots ragging me because I didn't play exactly how they expected. I played character X, and if I didn't max out power Y as they expected I could expect constant BS...right up until I dominated, and maybe if I was lucky got an apology for the asinine treatment I got for 90% of the game when my score tripled my nearest teammate. Heaven forbid I go with a build designed to help the team rather than rack up the kills, if I didn't have the highest score I was a noob looser despite the fact my team won handily (due to my support role). And God forbid I try something that didn't work out, if my team didn't win because I was playing the "healer" who didn't heal I was absolutely due for the most vitriolic rhetoric that the basement dwelling caste of our society could produce.

I can't address the assertion that there were different groups which I didn't participate, all I can say is that my experience (and apparently others posting to this thread) was that DotA players are a bunch of pimply faced kids who would rather yell at people than have a fun game.

My point is that the Dominions culture is quite different, and much more open to people playing stuff because it's fun or interesting rather than because it's the universally accepted "optimal" strategy. I don't want to get into a discussion about whether specifically my suggestions on strategies are good, but rather to point out that your position seems to be "that wouldn't work, that's not how most people would/should approach this problem and therefore you're a fool for not doing that." I think you could have a lot more fun playing the game with the attitude of "I'm gonna go with the monkeys and see what kind of damage I can do". [/too much holiday cheer]

[rdonj]

CBM 1.5 is still a perfectly playable version of the game, and it still has gemgens. Nothing preventing you from playing CBM without them if you don't want, other than not being able to find other players who are willing to play with gemgens, now that you don't have to have them. Most people seem quite happy to be rid of gem gens, but there are still enough people who are willing to play with them that it should be possible to get a game going. I am playing in such a game myself, that started after CBM 1.6 with 12 players in it. Of course, this has already been pointed out to you.

If you can find others who will play with gem gens, it shouldn't be a problem. If you can't find others who will play with gem gens, your argument basically becomes "I can't play the game the way I want to anymore because the rest of the community hates those settings. I hate QM, he's ruined the game for me by making it so much better for everyone else that they won't even contemplate playing vanilla anymore."



Also, IIRC CBM version 1.6 was a transitional version. QM didn't want to make too many more changes on top of the big clam removal change, and after it got some playtesting then he'd see about doing balance changes on nations that might be excessively hurt by their lack. Changes to make up for the lack of gem gens have never been out of the picture, they've just been waiting their turn. If I'm wrong someone can feel free to correct me on this, but that's the impression I had when QM was putting 1.6 together.

[rdonj]

[too much holiday cheer]
I played very well, was in the top 10 players worldwide in a couple categories, but I kept getting idiots ragging me because I didn't play exactly how they expected...

Wow that's bogus.

[Kuritza]

My point is that the Dominions culture is quite different, and much more open to people playing stuff because it's fun or interesting rather than because it's the universally accepted "optimal" strategy. I don't want to get into a discussion about whether specifically my suggestions on strategies are good, but rather to point out that your position seems to be "that wouldn't work, that's not how most people would/should approach this problem and therefore you're a fool for not doing that." I think you could have a lot more fun playing the game with the attitude of "I'm gonna go with the monkeys and see what kind of damage I can do". [/too much holiday cheer]

Yes it is different. You can notice how I joined this forum almost three years ago, but wasnt making such flamefests until now - because this forum is different.
And I never, ever said I only want to see 'optimal' strategies in Dominions. Hell, in all my games I was trying some fun crap - and it worked quite well. I only tried all-out clam-monkeys in Lapis after, like, three attempts to play Bandar Log differently. When I say that your tricks wont work, I mean that you wont win a game by relying on such things as your main and only strategy. But God forbid me to say anything bad to somebody who joins a game to try a markata-campaign for fun. I am playing a blood-clam-lamias-tarts LA Man now; do you think I dont like weird strategies?! Think again.
[Cough... Before anyone asks, yes I know these things are actually mainstream, but afaik not for LA Man. Cough.]

What I find a really, REALLY bad behaviour is deliberately disrupting game balance just because you see that you cant win anymore. Some player finds himself in a bad position, sees that nation X is on a winning spree and attacking it would be a suicide, and starts thwarting everyone who tried to fight that nation X.
For him, its reasonable because this way he can have some fun. But what about these he backstabs? They have invested lots of time in this game, half a year maybe; they were fighting a stronger foe - and they had a chance to win. SO much excitement. And then this dude backstabs them and ruins all - you cant both fight a winning nation AND that dude.
Wasted.
Nice? I think not.
I believe Archeolept was also complaining about these who join a game to help their friends win; like, casting Crumble on their own capitol with Victory Point to let that golem storm it faster.
I'd also include turtling/burning earth thing, but some might disagree.

I've seen such things again and again here, and eventually got tired of them. Thats why I mentioned closed DOTA leagues in the first place.
By the way, you have started that 'Good players pledge' thread, so you must have thought about such things yourself.

[Sombre]

And so the topic moves to ganging and kingmaking. Eventually it will cover all eventualities and the entire forum can b closed.

[Kuritza]

Nah ganging is absolutely fine most of the time, dont twist my words. Except when it becomes kingmaking.

[vfb]

I think this thread needs a poll. I'm ordering 'B': Scorched lands, 3 Ganks, and a stab in the back with an exploit, to go.

[Zeldor]

I don't think that LA MAn is a weak nation, it's somewhere in the middle of the pack. Great troops, good combat mages and nice paths on them. Good forging options. You have it not so hard to fill their holes with a pretender. Ignoring their strengths and focusing on other things does not seem wise, of course diversification is required. I offered you and Marignon to swap nations for my Ermor many turns ago in Setsumi and none of you were interested :) Each one of you was stronger than me at that point and you wasted your chance.

Anyway, I really get a feeling that you are just continuing your speeches from Setsumi thread [everyone should read it, that topic is awesome :P]. You should really work on diplomacy, both in-game and on forums. You are doing everything to convince even more people to play gemgenless CBM and alienating yourself, by using not-so-true arguments. You are losing Setsumi because you could not do diplomacy and insulted many people that could have helped you against me otherwise. You provoked that treacherous backstab by insulting that player. You spent all mid-game trying to build your interesting strategies instead of building anti-Ermor alliance or trying to get a border with me at least. You waited for Marignon to do the job. If he had won, it'd be the same thing, but just about why no one wants to help to stop him. And I will remind you one thing - Ermor can clam too, it's not banned for them, really.

[Kuritza]

I think you are simply lying, Zeldor.

First off, I didnt call LA Man weak, it was Micah and others. I also agree that its an average nations with its strengths. I absolutely love my troops, my mages and my scales, and its not like I sacrificed them to get all other stuff. LA Man is great.

Second, please point me - where did you offer swap nations?.. Perhaps I missed it.

Third, no we werent stronger each. You were dominating, its quite clear.
Fourth, I tried forging an alliance. Some said they just dont believe that Ermor is so strong, some said they are all for it and didnt do anything. Like SciencePro, for example. He was shouting OK!!! Lets gang Ermor now! And... he didnt do it.

Fifth, I started insulting him only AFTER he attacked me. If you dont remember the sequence, I'll remind you: after yet another outbreak of 'Ok, lets finish this game and declare Zeldor a winner' just as I was getting excited about our war that finally started, I wrote that the game is not over yet and we still have a good chance if Rlyeh and Utgard join me and Abyssia, even if they didnt help Marignon. Rlyeh even backstabbed Marignon, which was true.
Right after that Rlyeh said he will attack me instead, and I started calling him an idiot. This is not the first time I have this very situation; last time it was a no-diplo game. Ermor dominates the whole map, attacking people one by one, Rlyeh thwarts these who fight Ermor. Later he told us that he didnt understand how to play Rlyeh and knew he cant possibly fight Ermor (who can, in turn, easily go underwater), so he just ganged these who struggle. Great idea huh.

Six - I am not using not-so-true arguments. If you think I am, ok, thats your point of view and you are entitled to it. But I dont lie intentionally; perhaps I make mistakes but thats it.

Seven - even in Setsumi tread people stated WHY they were not going to attack Ermor despite my and Marignon's pleas. You didnt have to try hard convincing them not to gang on you, the winner: they were affraid they wont gain anything by attacking you, stuck in your neverending hordes. Thats one of Ermor's strength indeed, nobody wants to fight it.

Eight. I spent my mid-game fighting first Pangaea, then Abyssia, then Caelum - trying to get to you. I just couldnt attack you until recently (though I offered some Golem support to Caelum and Utgard in case they attack you). Dont say if you dont know. I already stated that I always try to fight somebody, otherwise I feel like I stale.

Nine. I didnt wait for Marignon to do the job, stop the BS please. I didnt have my scouts there, so I couldnt cloud-trapeze, and from my previous experience I know that Ossa rarely responds to PMs so its kinda hard to cooperate with him.

Ten. Yes I know that you clam. What next? I can compare your Ermor and WL's. Were you WL, I'd give up immediately, he is really good. But against you, I can struggle for a while. I think I will give up when Lapis ends - to stop bothering you guys on these forums and stop playing this game faster. Until then, please forgive me if I linger here a bit.

Eleven. I dont care if I alienate myself here. I am fed up and going to leave. Fed up by clueless people who ruin games, fed up by your mix of 'I am so weak' lies and 'I am undefeatable' brags, by banning of gemgens etc.



... ok, you know what? Grats, you've got on my nerves. If you REALLY want to win more than you want to play, post in the topic AGAIN that you want to be declared a winner. I wont object. Others lost hope long ago, so it will be over.

[sansanjuan]

I dislike DotA intensely. I prefer AoM, if I'm searching for an AoS; heck, I'd rather play Battleships.

I'm pretty bad at acrronyms. At first I was thinking DotA must be some Department of Transportation role playing game (line those cones up for extra skilz, my flagman can stop a truck... how 'bout yours?). Obviously I don't get out much.
-ssj

[Sombre]

Keep the Setsumi BS in the Setsumi thread. Oh wait I'm 17 pages too late.

[Warhammer]

Since this is quite the popular topic, how about having two downloads of the CBM mods? One without gemgen, and one with for those idiots like me who can't figure out how to enable gemgenning in two minutes.

Now I am not as experienced as many players out there, I would imagine that gemgenning would not be that big of a deal on a smaller map with fewer players, am I wrong in assuming this?

[KissBlade]

I think that's a reasonable request to be made in the CBM thread =) (Not this one hehe)

[Twan]

Legendary thread. It summoned me from the nether plane.

I think Bandar Log should be allowed to make clams and copy Bogus orders, or it should be considered to allow retreating monkey mages to use the old unerfed globals ! (this or give them a King Kong summon)

It's time to take appropriate measures to fix the markata PD. ;)

[RamsHead]

The real question here is whether the method for catching Norfleet was right or wrong.

[Gregstrom]

Surely the question is whether Norfleet was right or wrong?