Nations under CBM 1.6

[GrudgeBringer]

I was thinking of starting a game and limiting it to perhaps the 8 to 10 weakest EA(land) nations under Cbm 1.6.

Since I haven't played it much I was hoping to get some opinions on who you thought where the weakest and a couple of reasons why.

I think it would be an interesting game.

Thanks:up:

[Ink]

Ulm, Maverni, mmmmm... not too sure about others... maybe Yomi, Tir na n'Og, and Argatha.

[chrispedersen]

check out the cripple thread - they discuss this.
game was open only to nations that had not won in the hall of fame.

[Jarkko]

Machaka is by far the weakest nation in 1.6 CBM, if you ask me. The loss of fever fetishes hurts Machaka a lot, and they can not take much advantage of the new possibilities to enter underwater. In addition to that Flaming Arrows is a pain to cast in CBM, so Machaka has been slapped royally in CBM, and 1.6 was just the final nail in the coffin.

Ulm got slightly weaker with the lack of extra earthbooster (and no loss of the earth gem generator), but not in the same scale.

[Squirrelloid]

Hmmm... weakest 10 land nations in approximate order of weakness

1. MA Agartha
2. EA Agartha

The non-LA Agartha's are by far the weakest nations in the game, with or without CBM. Note that EA Agartha is probably worse than its MA version relative to its era, but when you're playing with other cripples EA is probably better...

3. (MA) Machaka

Loss of fetishes hurt, a lot. They're still better off than the above Agarthas, but not by much.

4. (MA) Eriu

Eriu has issues. Its research sucks. It has no endgame (at all). It needs early research. It needs a bless. It has no astral, precious little earth, and no death magic. The only thing it has going for it is arguably the best raiding thug in the game. This only gets it so far. By mid-game Eriu has generally moved from 'threat' to 'annoyance'.

5. LA Ulm

If you can survive long enough to get a blood economy going, you're probably ok. Surviving that long is *really hard*. Your national units are all typically overpriced in either gold, resources, or both. And most of them come with crippling encumbrance that makes them all but useless after a couple rounds of melee. And then your national mages top out at 3 total paths, making you the winner of the 'worst mages in the game' award.

6. MA Man

Similar problems to Eriu, except the research isn't quite as bad, your pretender isn't overworked, and you have good standard armies instead of good thugs. Good standard armies + a good buffing path (nature) means you make it to the end of midgame fine. (Then you hit lategame and realize you have none).

7. EA Abysia

Don't get me wrong, they have a recruitable thug/almost SC in their capital and excellent sacreds. The problem is that they only really do one thing well. Once someone counters your fire you're done. Since you also *predictably* do just one thing well, expect that to happen pretty fast.

---------

Those 7 are pretty indisputable, even if some of them miraculously didn't qualify for cripple fight. These are my picks for the next 3 in order.

8. (EA) TNN

Hire anywhere Bean Sidhes, A2 assassins, and better sacreds plus a good non-sacred option make TNN leaps and bounds better than Eriu. But its still not very good.

9. LA Caelum

For a nation with troops as bad as its are, LA Caelum finally rips the heart out of the nation by saddling it with crappy mages. Sure, your death magic improved, so your endgame might be really good. But how do you expect to get there? I suppose if you're playing against a bunch of n00bs that can't figure out how to counter mammoths you might do ok, but otherwise you're just hosed.

10. LA Atlantis

Sure, you've got great sacreds and decent cap-only mages. But your recruit-anywhere mages are pretty awful, and your UW recruit mages are really expensive for what they do. And while you have death and some astral (UW fortresses), your other magic paths are either uninspiring (water, oh yay) or too short to be useful (E,A,F only on randoms). And good cap-only sacreds only get you so far.

That said, there's a big difference between LA Atlantis and the other nations listed above.

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The following are often considered weak, although I have to imagine this is because many players can't figure out how to defend a rush with them. In no way would I consider them weak.

MA BL
Lots of astral power, earth via Rishi and national summons, great recruit-anywhere mages for communioning, and all its mages are sacred meaning really efficient research.

EA Marveni
No nation with a recruit anywhere E2S2H2 +210% EWSN mage can actually be that weak. Did i mention it can blood sacrifice as well?

EA Ermor
Similarly, F2S1D2 +110% FASD recruit anywhere mage is also pretty awesome, and they've even got good troops and respectable sacreds on top of that.

-----------------

The following is generally considered weak, although I think its probably underrated. But it arguably could replace LA Atlantis in the 10th slot:

LA Jomon - read the last few pages of the CBM thread already.

[Quitti]

I agree with Jarkko, Machaka and (MA) Ulm were probably hit the worst by CBM as, well, there's not much else to do with either nation than fever fetishes or bloodstones. But concerning EA nations, I'd say Marverni, possibly Agartha and Ulm. Vanheim is weak in late game due lack of diversity and research but their troops are good.

edit: Squirrelloid, you rank MA Ulm better than LA? Actually, I think you just forgot them ;)

[Squirrelloid]

I agree with Jarkko, Machaka and (MA) Ulm were probably hit the worst by CBM as, well, there's not much else to do with either nation than fever fetishes or bloodstones. But concerning EA nations, I'd say Marverni, possibly Agartha and Ulm. Vanheim is weak in late game due lack of diversity and research but their troops are good.

edit: Squirrelloid, you rank MA Ulm better than LA? Actually, I think you just forgot them ;)

Its possible I just forgot them.

One moment, I have to go actually look at what MA does again.

Ok, yes, but only quite marginally. Their mages are better and they have a more useful troop line-up, however small the margin.

That said, i'd amend them into 6, move the necessaries down 1, and remove LA Atlantis from the list.

[Quitti]

To be honest, they only do earth, and worse than agartha. Troops are not bad but enc is a killer. And that's it.

[Squirrelloid]

To be honest, they only do earth, and worse than agartha. Troops are not bad but enc is a killer. And that's it.

Think 'forge bonus'.

They basically have to take a site-searching pretender to diversify their gems, and from that their magic. But they don't need their pretender to also sit around and cast vampire counts like LA does, which is something.

And you think their enc. is killer? They're travelling light compared to LA Ulm iirc. (or at least, they have decent melee options with 6 enc., which is unheard of in LA).

Edit: Also, Iron Angels

[Quitti]

Yes, forge bonus is one redeeming factor. And the black knights are awesome, but cost a ton. Full chain mail troops are not bad either, but require lots of resources per gold spent (though they do get resource bonus in forts, so it's not THAT bad). They are def 5 though, so not evading anything, and that's with prot17. Plate ones are def 4 with body prot of 21 and one more enc, and both plate and chain troops are map move 1. Their "crossbowmen" have arbalests, which while do good damage, fire only once per three turns. Sappers cost 1½x the gold and same resources, but are more viable to use due having normal crossbows and a very good siege bonus. Still, the lack of diversity in national mages is even worse than of EA/MA vanheim. One 3.3% s1 chance on your main researcher. Weak priests (h2 cap only that eats the recruitment time from other useful stuff). No blood, no death, unreliably (10%) access up to e3 from only useful mages is rather weak. Iron angels are good, but require either e+s random smith (0.33% chance to get to begin with) with RoW/Robe of Magi/similar to summon, or pretender designed to do that.

And LA Ulm does not need their pretender to stay and summon counts, one is enough as it can continue the process with boosters or summon up one vampire lord and it needs less boosters to do the trick. Of course this requires construction research and so on. And LA gets s2b1 mages right out of the box, which is quite awesome (for communions, against sc's and so on), and the troops are good even if a bit expensive resourcewise for expansion - but the trick is to just spam those delicious rangers and keep some guys tieing the other troops down. And certainly this again has a counter, like pretty much everything in dom3. Still, I would rank LA Ulm well better off than MA, due the access to blood and death and astral in reliable quantities (provided that you go towards the vampire counts).

[Jarkko]

Marverni needs to survive the early game, in midgame it is very strong, and can be quite good in late game too.

I don't quite understand why LA Ulm would be weak. They have practically all the tools MA Ulm has, plus vampires. Conventional troops and mage-priests spammin the darts will see it well into midgame, and then the blood-summons really start to make a difference.

Have you actually seen MA Ulm summon *any* Angels since we got CBM 1.6? The lack of the earthgem generators means the chances to see one is minimal (the earth-gems are needed to gazillions of other things too).

[Fantomen]

I would personally rank LA ulm as one of the strongest nations in the game.

LA Caelum I think is potentially awesome as well.

[Mardagg]

yeah,LA Ulm is a pretty strong nation,imo.
In addition to those great rangers,2S1B everywhere mages,sacred priests researching+inquisitor bonus+ spamming iron blizzard and a good shot at blood,dont forget the ghoul guardians.Sure,they are cap only,but if you happen to have good resource provinces surrounding your cap+prod scale(an option with Ulm)+the resource bonus of ulm,you can easily build like 12+ ghoul guardians per turn.Guardians and Rangers backed by priests spamming tempering the will and iron blizzard are a very strong force until you make it deep into blood.

Also,i say that LA Ulm profits a lot from no gem gens.

Concercing EA Agartha i dont agree,too.
People fail to see,how big an advantage they got in the sea.And they are even able to build castles and PD there.
Depending on the map you play,this can be a huuge plus with them.
E.g. Agartha has no problem at all to smash R`leyh .All their troops got good to high MR+those Oracles make great Casters in the sea,backed up by cheap summonable Earth Elementals which trample those lobo guards.
For more,Umbrals make good Sc chassis if you GoR them and they come cheap,v cheap.Plus those magma childs become pretty nasty if backed up by some Armor increasing spells,which are easily castable by most of Ag`s mages.
Also the risen Oracle,which fits well into EA Agarthas strat,is a huge immortal SC if you take the right magic path`s...even after the cost nerf in CBM...since EA Ag imo fits v well for turmoil 3,Sloth 3,Heat 3,Luck 3 scales,which leave the points for the risen oracle.

I consider EA Agartha much stronger than MA Agartha,it plays a lot different bc of the water advantages and the relative environment,i.e. vs EA nations instead of MA nations.

[Mardagg]

Btw,saying that Machaka got a huge hit in CBM 1.6 ,makes things a bit too easy,dont you think?

Sure,they cant forge fever fetishes anymore,but other nations cant forge clams and/or blood stones anymore...

I actually think Machaka is stronger now bc of this.
Still not a top nation,but playable imo.
Just spam fire drakes with your fire random dragon mastered sorcerers and you got some good use for your fire/nature gems again.
And Hunter Spiders are cheaper now.

[Squirrelloid]

LA Ulm is by no means strong. They are very weak early, and their troops are bad and overpriced. Lasting long enough to summon a vampire count is hard, much less lasting long enough to do anything with said vampire count. And their blood access is bad and expensive for their performance as blood hunters - you don't get the good blood summons, they're already all gone because you're competing with LA Abysia, LA Mictlan, etc... And have we mentioned the bad research? - you get to midgame after everyone else even in the research-poor LA, as a nation whose early game sucks. You think Marveni has a hard time surviving the early game? At least Marveni gets to start with a good mage and troops that don't fatigue out at the drop of a hat.

Agartha:
...
First of all, EA Rlyeh isn't even *that* strong, and EA Agartha still has no chance against them. Good MR doesn't help when your troops have the military power of tissue paper. Oh yeah, and invading Rlyeh with their guaranteed C3 dominion... let me know how that turns out for you. I'd take indie tritons over agarthan troops. No, not equal cash, equal numbers.

[WraithLord]

Squirrelloid, I totally agree with your list, at least until 9.

It's actually quite sad that CBM didn't see fit to address Agartha and Machaka. Some small touches could make a big difference in making them interesting and competitive.

like for example, give all Machaka sorcerers/es +1 E/D/F pick. They are supposed to me a mage centric nation right?- That one additional pick can make the difference between lame and decent.

[Squirrelloid]

Squirrelloid, I totally agree with your list, at least until 9.

It's actually quite sad that CBM didn't see fit to address Agartha and Machaka. Some small touches could make a big difference in making them interesting and competitive.

like for example, give all Machaka sorcerers/es +1 E/D/F pick. They are supposed to me a mage centric nation right?- That one additional pick can make the difference between lame and decent.

I wasn't totally happy with LA Atlantis on that list, since its so much better than everything else there. But if I had to pick a 10th... LA Atlantis at least has a shot at winning a game without riding the coattails of other nations.

Being reminded how much MA Ulm sucks helped a lot. (ie, amend list so MA Ulm is #6, and adjust accordingly)

[Sombre]

He wants EA land nations, so talk of Machaka and MA/LA Ulm doesn't really help.

[chrispedersen]

my balance mod had fixes for abysia, agartha and oceania. It was intended to fix machaka as well, just haven't gotten that far.

[Squirrelloid]

For some reason I read that as 'land nations' without the EA restriction - has the OP changed since last night?

Err... there aren't 10 or even really 8 'weak' EA land nations.

Agartha, Abysia, TNN, ... ???

I suppose if you believe the haters out there Marveni and Ermor probably get added to the list, but they're pretty strong. And if they're on the list, EA Ulm certainly should be. And where do you go from there? Vanheim? Yomi? C'Tis? We're into pretty good nations before we hit 4, much less 8.

Now, if you permit water nations, well, all three of them qualify as weak imo.

(Running a weak nations game as all ages makes a lot more sense because the weak nations are fairly well distributed.)

[Mardagg]

Agartha:
...
First of all, EA Rlyeh isn't even *that* strong, and EA Agartha still has no chance against them. Good MR doesn't help when your troops have the military power of tissue paper. Oh yeah, and invading Rlyeh with their guaranteed C3 dominion... let me know how that turns out for you. I'd take indie tritons over agarthan troops. No, not equal cash, equal numbers.


ok,my friend.I must say that i already hate your arrogance at this point,after only reading half a dozen posts from you.
I just won an MP war with Agartha vs an EA Rlyeh ,that did know what he was doing.
He had no chance,bc my Pale infantry did a good job resisting quite a lot of mind blasts,while my Earth elementals via barathus pact where stomping his Lobos.He then proceeded to target my oracles in further battles,which had starting MR of 18,some did cast iron will for MR 22 before being targeted...in that fight he did not manage to kill a single of my Orcale mages,bc you know,they got pretty good HP,too.
My teleporting Risen oracle did a good job there,too,since,you know,he is amphibous.I took a start dom of 10 so actually wasnt a big problem to face his cold 3,since EA Ryleh always has dom problems.
I say EA Agartha is the top nation for battling EA Squids.
And,you know,that was just an example by me.
You didnt adress any of my other points.


Did YOU ever play EA Agartha?

[Mardagg]

LA Ulm is by no means strong. They are very weak early, and their troops are bad and overpriced. Lasting long enough to summon a vampire count is hard, much less lasting long enough to do anything with said vampire count. And their blood access is bad and expensive for their performance as blood hunters - you don't get the good blood summons, they're already all gone because you're competing with LA Abysia, LA Mictlan, etc... And have we mentioned the bad research? - you get to midgame after everyone else even in the research-poor LA, as a nation whose early game sucks. You think Marveni has a hard time surviving the early game? At least Marveni gets to start with a good mage and troops that don't fatigue out at the drop of a hat.

.
Thats why you take an awake Blood Fountain for example.
Preferbly B4D3N2.
Helps with early research along with magic scale 1.
Lets you summon the first count before end of year 1.
Forges the first Thistle mace so that your N random fortune tellers can cast harupsex early on.
You ever heard of specific pretender builds targetting nation weaknesses?
With cbm,the blood fountain is a decent choice.
Talking about bad research...LA ULm is the perfect fit for Lightless Lanterns.
Your Fire random black priests with forge bonus dont know what to do with the fire gems anyways.
Have you even read the other points me and the other posters mentionend,that make LA Ulm strong?

Did YOU ever play LA Ulm?

[Sombre]

No, EA Oceania is the top nation for battling EA squids.

[Mardagg]

Thats debatable.

Oceania has to defend vs the squids,e.g. vs teleporting sc mind lords.
Agartha probably has a lot of "safe" land terrain until the squids can amass amulets of the fish.So,with Ag you will wage the war almost exclusivle in enemy terrain.
Also I consider the risen oracle the perfect choice for EA Agartha as already mentioned above,bc u can take T3S3H3L3 easily with Ag.
That alone makes EA Agartha a v strong force early on in the water.
U still need luck for the starting position though.
So probably Oceania is a tad better vs the squids .
But my point is: EA Agartha is strong in the water and decent on land= pretty good nation on most maps especially when there is only 1 water nation.

[Squirrelloid]

Agartha:
...
First of all, EA Rlyeh isn't even *that* strong, and EA Agartha still has no chance against them. Good MR doesn't help when your troops have the military power of tissue paper. Oh yeah, and invading Rlyeh with their guaranteed C3 dominion... let me know how that turns out for you. I'd take indie tritons over agarthan troops. No, not equal cash, equal numbers.


ok,my friend.I must say that i already hate your arrogance at this point,after only reading half a dozen posts from you.
I just won an MP war with Agartha vs an EA Rlyeh ,that did know what he was doing.
He had no chance,bc my Pale infantry did a good job resisting quite a lot of mind blasts,while my Earth elementals via barathus pact where stomping his Lobos.He then proceeded to target my oracles in further battles,which had starting MR of 18,some did cast iron will for MR 22 before being targeted...in that fight he did not manage to kill a single of my Orcale mages,bc you know,they got pretty good HP,too.
My teleporting Risen oracle did a good job there,too,since,you know,he is amphibous.I took a start dom of 10 so actually wasnt a big problem to face his cold 3,since EA Ryleh always has dom problems.
I say EA Agartha is the top nation for battling EA Squids.
And,you know,that was just an example by me.
You didnt adress any of my other points.

Did YOU ever play EA Agartha?

And I hate your false familiarity and your assumption that I haven't tried these nations. If you make ridiculous claims, expect not to be taken seriously.

Now, clearly EA Rlyeh didn't know what he was doing since he brought lobo guards and mindblasters to a fist fight. I'd take indie tritons over both of those for that fight. Or Slave Trolls, who should mop the floor with both your earth elementals and your troops. Heck, as EA Rlyeh I'd be tempted to take Slave Trolls in general since they give you a way to project power onto land early.

Out of curiosity, what did his mages cast?

And EA Rlyeh often has dom 9-10 on a kraken, which in their case isn't a terrible idea since CBM 1.6 removed the need to have air on its pretender. A dom 10 kraken could have wiped your army *by itself*. Dom 10 similarly tends to imply no problems with dominion.

I have played EA Agartha, repeatedly, in SP, and its the only nation where the AI has given me a hard time. Even such crappy nations as Eriu and Machaka outperform them trivially against the AI. I have not had the opportunity to play them in MP, mostly because while I like playing underdogs they simply are not worth the pain.

As to your other 'points' - (1) There are other sea nations, both of whom are better suited to smashing you than Rlyeh is. EA Oceania is the dominant EA sea nation, and they run you over better than either Rlyeh or Atlantis. (2) Yes, Umbrals are good. They're the only thing Agartha has going for it. And standard UD counters apply. I was one of the people arguing for Umbrals to be returned to Conj 5 (from the Conj 7 they were in CBM 1.5) so that EA Agartha wasn't simply DOA.

LA Ulm is by no means strong. They are very weak early, and their troops are bad and overpriced. Lasting long enough to summon a vampire count is hard, much less lasting long enough to do anything with said vampire count. And their blood access is bad and expensive for their performance as blood hunters - you don't get the good blood summons, they're already all gone because you're competing with LA Abysia, LA Mictlan, etc... And have we mentioned the bad research? - you get to midgame after everyone else even in the research-poor LA, as a nation whose early game sucks. You think Marveni has a hard time surviving the early game? At least Marveni gets to start with a good mage and troops that don't fatigue out at the drop of a hat.


Thats why you take an awake Blood Fountain for example.
Preferbly B4D3N2.
Helps with early research along with magic scale 1.
Lets you summon the first count before end of year 1.
Forges the first Thistle mace so that your N random fortune tellers can cast harupsex early on.

...

What do you do, blood hunt your capital?

That's an awful blood fountain build. Blood fountains need A2 or S3 for mobility reasons if its not being used merely as a bless chassis.

Its also a bad pretender build for LA Ulm longterm because you want S4+ (with a sufficiency of slots) so you can forge the astral rings. You want E so you have S+E to forge coins. And of course you need D3B3 so you can summon vamp counts at all. And as you correctly identified, N is useful to you. Sufficient F to make fire boosters isn't a terrible idea either, and also opens up fire arrows (which since your crossbows are your best troop option, is a really good idea).

Oh yeah, and you want that awake research boost so your research doesn't suck year 1.

You'd also like plausibly decent scales, since you need resources, cash for infrastructure/mages (who are winning no efficiency awards), and so on. Mg1 might help, but Dr2 would at least give you points *and* do something about your perenially weak MR. Of course, your research is *already* bad.

And given how weak Ulm is early, you wouldn't mind some SC help from your pretender. Of course, you aren't going to get that, D3B3, and satisfy your magic diversity needs all at the same time.


You ever heard of specific pretender builds targetting nation weaknesses?

Sure. Have you ever heard of an excess of weaknesses? Its exactly what I indicted Eriu for - like Eriu, LA Ulm needs too many things out of its pretender to reasonably get it all.


With cbm,the blood fountain is a decent choice.
Talking about bad research...LA ULm is the perfect fit for Lightless Lanterns.
Your Fire random black priests with forge bonus dont know what to do with the fire gems anyways.

I dunno, forge flaming skulls so they can Phoenix Power into Flaming Arrows sounds pretty good. Not that you live that long.

Of course, lightless lanterns require that you somehow miraculously made it to Constr 6. Since you probably die early year 2, I am not enthused. Further, weren't we researching iron storm to survive into the midgame?


Have you even read the other points me and the other posters mentionend,that make LA Ulm strong?

Did YOU ever play LA Ulm?

I read 'they have blood and death, how can they possibly be bad'. Note that neither of these are especially good as early game paths. And they're competing against the best blood nations in the game (Mictlan, Abysia) for the unique blood summons, a competition they lose by lightyards. They're competing against everyone else for the Chalice or GoH, which they also lose because their research sucks. So despite having D+B access they don't actually get to use the good B stuff and can't heal their tarts making tart-farming inefficient. (Also, they have no good tart casters - so they have to spend yet more gems on casters who can plausibly tart summon). If they were an MA nation, they might be a plausible blood power. In LA they're just another might-have-been that never makes it.

Jarkko's 'conventional troops' comment is hilarious, because their conventional troops just die against most opponents. Heck, they have trouble expanding vs. typical LA indies with a lot of their troop line-up. And that's before you even consider the pitifully weak MR. And as if your troops being individually worse than most of the opposition you'll face wasn't bad enough, you're also perpetually outnumbered because you pay so much in resources for the privilege of hiring crappy troops. LA Ulm is one of the easiest nations to rush in the game, bar none. I'd class them as easier to rush than Machaka. (If they do survive, their longterm prospects are better... but they always get rushed).

I have played LA Ulm. It was a disappointing experience. Crossbows aren't very good when your line troops just disintegrate after 2-3 rounds of melee, and did almost no damage while there.

Would you like Wraithlord to also wax poetic about the utter suckitude of these nations, since he agreed with most of my list?

[Squirrelloid]

Thats debatable.

I consider the risen oracle the perfect choice for EA Agartha as already mentioned above,bc u can take T3S3H3L3 easily with Ag.

T3 with gold-hungry Agartha? I think you just lost any authority in this discussion.

[Mardagg]

Thats debatable.

I consider the risen oracle the perfect choice for EA Agartha as already mentioned above,bc u can take T3S3H3L3 easily with Ag.

T3 with gold-hungry Agartha? I think you just lost any authority in this discussion.

lol.u are just an idiot.
U are telling everyone agarthian troops are soo bad,why do you want the gold to produce them?
I mainly need gold for the oracles,which are cap only,and earth readers which are cheap.The rest is chaff,much needed,but just cannonfodder.10g11r 2 map move amphibian chaff.
Now,tell me,why do i need O3 here?
I got the idea from someone who won a big MP game here on the forum with EA Agartha,He took the line T3S2H3L3M1,death -1 AFAIK.
I read his AAr several months ago and tried that a lot in SP.
U take awake super Sc immortal pretender Risen oracle with something like S4E4D4 and v high dom.I took T3S2H3L3G0M1 though,dont like death scale.
I want gems for my v good national summons,not only Umbrals,but also Magma childs(to be backed by E4 or E5 mages) and Earth Elementals( v good for water fights).
How do i get many gems?
By taking turmoil+luck+magic combo.
Also you get some luck events most of the time to compensate for lack of gold at the start.
Try it before judging.

I stomb the AI in no time there,simply alone bc my Pretender stomps him.He is nearly unstoppable at around turn 5 already.
Mind you,thats dom2 style,where it was a lot more common to see strong starting pretenders.
I feel home there since i am a Dom2 vet,probably having a lot more MP victories under my belt there than you in DOm3.

[Mardagg]

[QUOTE=Squirrelloid;724703

And I hate your false familiarity and your assumption that I haven't tried these nations. If you make ridiculous claims, expect not to be taken seriously.

Now, clearly EA Rlyeh didn't know what he was doing since he brought lobo guards and mindblasters to a fist fight. I'd take indie tritons over both of those for that fight. Or Slave Trolls, who should mop the floor with both your earth elementals and your troops. Heck, as EA Rlyeh I'd be tempted to take Slave Trolls in general since they give you a way to project power onto land early.

Out of curiosity, what did his mages cast?

And EA Rlyeh often has dom 9-10 on a kraken, which in their case isn't a terrible idea since CBM 1.6 removed the need to have air on its pretender. A dom 10 kraken could have wiped your army *by itself*. Dom 10 similarly tends to imply no problems with dominion.

I have played EA Agartha, repeatedly, in SP, and its the only nation where the AI has given me a hard time. Even such crappy nations as Eriu and Machaka outperform them trivially against the AI. I have not had the opportunity to play them in MP, mostly because while I like playing underdogs they simply are not worth the pain.

As to your other 'points' - (1) There are other sea nations, both of whom are better suited to smashing you than Rlyeh is. EA Oceania is the dominant EA sea nation, and they run you over better than either Rlyeh or Atlantis. (2) Yes, Umbrals are good. They're the only thing Agartha has going for it. And standard UD counters apply. I was one of the people arguing for Umbrals to be returned to Conj 5 (from the Conj 7 they were in CBM 1.5) so that EA Agartha wasn't simply DOA.


[/QUOTE]

I was asking seriously if you do have any MP experience with these nations,which you havent;)
You know what,i suck with Sauromatia.
I still wont ever claim that they are bad,just bc their playing concept doesnt get into my mind in SP games.
He did have lots of tritons and troopers mixed in.
I was better in research,so i had advantage at start.That changed later on though and still didnt do anything.
Lol @ DOm 10 Kraken wiping me out.
I got a dozen smiters and moreso of frozenheart spammers,thats how i killed his pretender in the end anyways.Alteration synergized v well with my pretender build.
I agree though,that his pretender build(imprisoned void Lurker S8 and some other paths+low dom) was suboptimal.

To your points regarding my other points:

(1)as i already stated to Sombre,Oceania being better suited vs the Squids is debatable .Agartha,having lots of provinces on land normally,is practically immune to any serious counter attacks by the squids until quite some time.Whereas oceania is vulnerable to e.g. teleporting Mind lords quite early.
What i am saying is,basically a land nations with easy access to water has big advantage in a battle vs a water nation with vv tough access to land,after all,all mind blasters are aquatic,no?
In other words,u cant lose the war,just stalemate as worst case.

(2) at least we agree on Umbrals.
What about the magma childs and earth elementals?

[FAJ]

I have to agree with Squirrillord, about LA Ulm at least. Trying to design a pretender for them is like having a leaky roof with 10 holes and only having 3 buckets to catch it all.

I don't so much agree about the fountain being a bad choice. You mention the need for S4 for rings, but I think it is a bigger burden to get S4 on the pretender than it is to just empower an S2 Fortune teller, then give her a coin and a cap. They have an abundance of S2, S1E1 and E2 mages, so coins and caps shouldn't be a problem.

Also, considering the high resource to gold ratio for Ulm troops, you aren’t very gold hungry in the first couple turns. Blood hunting your capital to summon a Vampire on turn 3 isn't impossible/crippling in CBM. Maybe not super effective, but hunting your capital is not the end of the world.

@Mardagg

Keep in mind, the argument here is that these nations mentioned are weaker than others, not that they are garbage outright. Proving that some negatives are possible to overcome, or that a nation can compensate for a weakness doesn't prove that a nation isn't weaker than others. In either case, weak or not, providing a specific example of how a very particular build can be effective is evidence enough that the race is AT LEAST constrained in terms of variety.

On a side note, I think that it is ironic the way that post (#27) is started, and then subsequently composed.

[Mardagg]

[QUOTE=Squirrelloid;724676]



...

What do you do, blood hunt your capital?

That's an awful blood fountain build. Blood fountains need A2 or S3 for mobility reasons if its not being used merely as a bless chassis.

Its also a bad pretender build for LA Ulm longterm because you want S4+ (with a sufficiency of slots) so you can forge the astral rings. You want E so you have S+E to forge coins. And of course you need D3B3 so you can summon vamp counts at all. And as you correctly identified, N is useful to you. Sufficient F to make fire boosters isn't a terrible idea either, and also opens up fire arrows (which since your crossbows are your best troop option, is a really good idea).

Oh yeah, and you want that awake research boost so your research doesn't suck year 1.

You'd also like plausibly decent scales, since you need resources, cash for infrastructure/mages (who are winning no efficiency awards), and so on. Mg1 might help, but Dr2 would at least give you points *and* do something about your perenially weak MR. Of course, your research is *already* bad.

And given how weak Ulm is early, you wouldn't mind some SC help from your pretender. Of course, you aren't going to get that, D3B3, and satisfy your magic diversity needs all at the same time.



Sure. Have you ever heard of an excess of weaknesses? Its exactly what I indicted Eriu for - like Eriu, LA Ulm needs too many things out of its pretender to reasonably get it all.

[quote]
With cbm,the blood fountain is a decent choice.
Talking about bad research...LA ULm is the perfect fit for Lightless Lanterns.
Your Fire random black priests with forge bonus dont know what to do with the fire gems anyways.

I dunno, forge flaming skulls so they can Phoenix Power into Flaming Arrows sounds pretty good. Not that you live that long.

Of course, lightless lanterns require that you somehow miraculously made it to Constr 6. Since you probably die early year 2, I am not enthused. Further, weren't we researching iron storm to survive into the midgame?


Have you even read the other points me and the other posters mentionend,that make LA Ulm strong?

Did YOU ever play LA Ulm?

I read 'they have blood and death, how can they possibly be bad'. Note that neither of these are especially good as early game paths. And they're competing against the best blood nations in the game (Mictlan, Abysia) for the unique blood summons, a competition they lose by lightyards. They're competing against everyone else for the Chalice or GoH, which they also lose because their research sucks. So despite having D+B access they don't actually get to use the good B stuff and can't heal their tarts making tart-farming inefficient. (Also, they have no good tart casters - so they have to spend yet more gems on casters who can plausibly tart summon). If they were an MA nation, they might be a plausible blood power. In LA they're just another might-have-been that never makes it.

Jarkko's 'conventional troops' comment is hilarious, because their conventional troops just die against most opponents. Heck, they have trouble expanding vs. typical LA indies with a lot of their troop line-up. And that's before you even consider the pitifully weak MR. And as if your troops being individually worse than most of the opposition you'll face wasn't bad enough, you're also perpetually outnumbered because you pay so much in resources for the privilege of hiring crappy troops. LA Ulm is one of the easiest nations to rush in the game, bar none. I'd class them as easier to rush than Machaka. (If they do survive, their longterm prospects are better... but they always get rushed).

I have played LA Ulm. It was a disappointing experience. Crossbows aren't very good when your line troops just disintegrate after 2-3 rounds of melee, and did almost no damage while there.

Would you like Wraithlord to also wax poetic about the utter suckitude of these nations, since he agreed with most of my list?

For the record,i would like Wraithlord to also wax poetic about these nations.
Maybe thats someone,that actually is more openminded.

I dont need mobility since i indeed blood hunt my capital given the fact that i get plenty of 0 upkeep chaff troops to patrol it and i want my blood counts being summoned as early as possible.
After all,you got a pretty good allrounder as a summonable right from the start there without the need to research anything in blood for quite some time.
Do you see the synergy here?
I dont took S since u can get S3 with your S2B1 mages via random,its v advisable anyways to build a lot of these guys.
acces to crystal coin+starshine cap is easily.I agree though,that that is the weak spot.you may have to empower 1 S2 mage to S3 in order to repeately being able to forge the rings.
My build allows pretty decent scales with DOm 6.
I might go for O3P2G2L-1C3M1.
Luck -1 is ok imo due to fortune tellers.
As i stated,i consider the 0 enc Ghoul guardian which is insanely massable as ULm with Prod scale to be vv strong troops early-midgame.U counter all bless rushed with that and together with Rangers,they are v powerful with decent MR right from the start.+ they make great underwater units when lead by undead commander with Manual of Water breathing,since the enc penalty is ignored.
I repeat,i dont think ULM is weak in early game,just in early research.If you can come up with solutions here,Ulm is great.
How can u say that Ulm is easily rushable,when everyone knows that the ghould guardians counter most rush options?
I assume u never did build these guys.
Put in antimagic and/or tempering the will and they got v good MR,too.
U played it wrong.
Its that easy.

[Mardagg]

@Mardagg

Keep in mind, the argument here is that these nations mentioned are weaker than others, not that they are garbage outright. Proving that some negatives are possible to overcome, or that a nation can compensate for a weakness doesn't prove that a nation isn't weaker than others. In either case, weak or not, providing a specific example of how a very particular build can be effective is evidence enough that the race is AT LEAST constrained in terms of variety.

On a side note, I think that it is ironic the way that post (#27) is started, and then subsequently composed.

Good Point.
But there is one thing we all have to keep in mind:
Being difficult to play isnt the same as being hopelessy underpowered.

[quantum_mechani]

On the subject of MA Ulm and Mackaka:

There is a reason I haven't arbitrarily upped the power of their national mages (or nerfed the magic levels of powerful nations mages). If anything is thematically defining about a nation it's the paths the mages have, so I am very reluctant to meddle with them.

Mackaka I don't think is nearly so bad off as people seem to think. As they stand I would say they are at probably better than Man, Eriu, MA Ulm or MA Agartha, and arguably better than Bandar Log or MA Marignon. Which is not to say I'm opposed to boosting them, I already made the hunter spiders much cheaper and upped the MR of the spider form, and improved PD is in the works.

MA Ulm is perhaps more legitamitly poor, but they are much harder to boost within the theme. In any case it's not like being forced to branch into blood was really a good solution to them being better either (it's also a bit hard to swallow that a nation without the native ability to forge any gem gens is made comparatively worse off by the change than those that could). I do think making the iron angel easier/cheaper to cast is an excellent idea.

[GrudgeBringer]

OK guys...I just wanted a list of EA weaker nations so I could post a list and you could pick from it for a game.

MY list included Ulm, Arco, Marverni, Argatha...after that I was relying on the forum.

Also, if you read the description, it was land nations only so any argument between Ryleh and Argatha is pointless in this thread (as much as I was enjoying it).

Thanks for the other nations mentioned and why, as I said I have not played CBM 1.6 much if at all, so I really didn't want to put in a nation that had been boosted and I was relying on old info.

[Sombre]

I still believe both MA and LA Ulm troops should be boosted in the form of another enc taken off. Their melee troops are supposed to make you want production scales without any question and are supposed to be pretty much the best, highest tech troops in all of dom3. It's their whole thing - steel over magic. I don't think it goes against theme at all to just give them 1 less enc on all the heavies. This is a nation that lives in its armour.

[kianduatha]

As far as actual EA land nations...Ulm, Arco, Marverni, Agartha, Abysia, Tir Na Nog, and after that it's less clear. Just pick a few from Yomi, C'tis, Ermor, and Kailasa.

Now to the off-topic part: Machaka's fine once Hunter Spiders get the 5 strength they're missing and get a buff to their PD.

Ulmish troops truly could use a lower Enc, though for MA I'm more concerned with Iron Angels being more or less impossible to get out with your base casters. That's even okay--just make it Research 7 and 15 gems if your pretender has to cast it, though. Because face it, Iron angels aren't as good as the Earth Royalty, and if they're on the same research level and you don't have enough gems for both...

Also, if Wolfherds are training and breeding wolves, shouldn't their summon allies be better than normal wolves?

[KissBlade]

LA Ulm is definitely not deserving as one of the ten weakest nations. Rangers + shields are already ye olde proven tactic of xbows + blockers. Zweihanders and ghoul guardians (the latter of which are very nice against pretenders) are pretty nice melee cleavers. You get very very underestimated mages especially recruit-able everywhere second tier astral2/blood 1 mages who doubles as spies!

[Tolkien]

I shall jump on the LA-Ulm-isn't-underpowered bandwagon. A blood economy isn't that hard to start up: 3-4 Second Tiers and a nearby province and you'll be churning out enough slaves to summon a count or two in short order. Once the counts have been summoned, you then start relying on Blood-Random Fortune Tellers and Vampire Counts to boost the blood economy.

Early research is a problem, but it's a problem that doesn't last for too long. A major point of LA Ulm would be to put up castles ASAP. At 5RP for 170/5.67 gold, or 34/1.13 gold per Research point at Magic-1, Iron Priests are fairly cost effective researchers. While not the best, Ulm can certainly keep up in the research race beyond the first few months (where your mages will go directly into blood hunting), and certainly towards the midgame (with lightless lantern spam and/or skull mentors (if you really need it). At 4 gems a pop with their forge bonus, it's fairly cost-effective even without a dwarven hammer (which will simply reduce the gem cost by 1, and you need your earth gems for other things)).

I'd argue that Ulm is a fairly difficult nation to rush. No nation reliant on sacreds are going to go near Ulm, for the simple matter of ghoul guardians. I posted the test results in the CBM thread, but I think they clearly demonstrate ghoul guardians slaughtering dual-blessed sacreds. Elephants are easy to beat with Rats tails (+4 Animal Awe+Greater Fear on x2Attack+Const-2+N1), which are easily forgeable by Nature-Random Fortune Tellers. A Hochmeister with a Rat's Tail with one black templar bodyguard or two can rout many an elephant (not to mention elephants are expensive). If we compare Ulm's troops to Marignon's, they're nearly identical. The pikemen and halberdiers are the same in price and cost, and have identical stats except for HP and MR (+2 HP vs. +1 MR). Comparing Rangers to Crossbows, Rangers cost +3 gold, but has +2 Precision, Stealthy, Forest Survival, and are better in close combat then Crossbows. Men-at-Arms are +2 gold and -1 resources compared to Infantry of Ulm, and are better overall in close quarter combat, but Infantry perform better in their intended role, i.e. arrow catchers. The lower MR isn't really felt by Ulm during expansion and the early game. Who's going to mass units to exploit that weakness early on, mindblasting R'lyeh? They have the gold for that?:D When we move on into the mid-game, where nations will certainly start putting together MR reliant counters, you can easily put up Anti-magic and/or spam Tempering the Will with or without communions. Therefore, while the units aren't awesome, they certainly aren't crap.

While expanding can be a pain, there are actually several methods you can take beyond just the simple xbows+bows/shields technique. Certainly templars can be used as a quick and easy expansion methods against most indies, and Call Lesser Horror+retreat is also a viable expansion method (one that works similarly for, say, Bogarus), if you choose to go down that path. Expansion might not be as easy as, say, Mictlan and dual-blessed jags, but they can do it well enough. You just need to get creative, and find a good combination of the three.

Generally, I'd say it's a pretty good nation with a strong end-game (with Astral, Death, AND Blood). There can be minor tweaks made to it, for example lowering the cost of counts (this is something I suggest, although it may mean even larger armies of chaff for Ulm), encumberance, boosting the summon of wolfherders, etc., but honestly, it stands pretty well by itself. Stealthy communions and non-mindhuntable spies are underestimated, as well as kamikaze counts (hey, medallions of vengeance are only 4 fire gems. Why not?).

[Mardagg]

excellent post Tolkien:up:

[Tolkien]

I should've probably also mentioned that crystal matrixes (easily forged by astral randomed priests) lets you boost and cast fire arrows, wind guide, and arrow fend, to add to your crossbow fire.

[chrispedersen]

You've gotten quite good at LA-Ulm Tolkien = ).

[WraithLord]

call lesser horror + retreat will sometimes work while at other times the horror would kill your mage. I didn't test this so I don't know the actual probability of that happening but it happened to me once so I know it can happen.

[rdonj]

Yeah, if you plan on using horrors as a serious weapon in a battle, it's a good idea to spend some effort horror marking the enemy a little first.

[Amorphous]

OK guys...I just wanted a list of EA weaker nations so I could post a list and you could pick from it for a game.

MY list included Ulm, Arco, Marverni, Argatha...after that I was relying on the forum.

Also, if you read the description, it was land nations only so any argument between Ryleh and Argatha is pointless in this thread (as much as I was enjoying it).

Thanks for the other nations mentioned and why, as I said I have not played CBM 1.6 much if at all, so I really didn't want to put in a nation that had been boosted and I was relying on old info.
Be careful about what the nation-restrictions do to the balance.
As an example, EA Agartha gets quite a boost if there are no aquatic nations in the game.

[Sombre]

Even on an immortal or worthless unit, meds of vengeance aren't worth it. The actual explosion isn't particularly powerful. I think you'd get more value out of a fire drake or a different random fire item.

[Quitti]

Concerning the enc issue of Ulm, how about making a national e3 or e4 spell that costs one or zero gems that copies the effects of relief, either as battlefield-wide or large aoe? It's 1+DRN-DRN reinvig iirc that can't go below 0. It would somewhat alleviate the high enc problem of the troops, and it would boost the mages slightly. Call it 'Revitalizing earth' or something, add it to around the same place as tempering the will (thau4) or one-two levels higher. Still this would not touch the national mages paths, which on MA are quite horrendous. Also, Iron angels being cheaper/easier to get would also fix quite a many problems.

[Sombre]

I don't think it's likely to be added in CBM. qm doesn't like to add new content to dom3 and that would be a fairly substantial step in terms of theme, which is a concern. It is a nice idea though.

[Jarkko]

I actually think Machaka is stronger now bc of this.
Still not a top nation,but playable imo.
Just spam fire drakes with your fire random dragon mastered sorcerers and you got some good use for your fire/nature gems again.
And Hunter Spiders are cheaper now.

The strength of Machaka was always in my opinion the strong mid-game. They struggle early on in the game, and they quite simply suck late in the game. If Machaka is to do good, to win if you so want to say, they have to steamroll the field in the midgame (after havng survived the early phases somehow).

The Machaka PD is a joke, even with the slight boost seen in CBM 1.6. Thus Machaka is very weak against an early rush (before you have been able to summon fire-drakes to bolster the frontline and crafted enough boosters for your mages to make a difference on the battlefield). Machakan PD is famous for rushing forwards and then be killed by their own missiles... Try it in SP if you want to see the hilariosity.

The midgame is where Machaka can shine. Flaming arrows (althjugh Flaming Arros is tougher to get to in CBM), firedrakes at front, spiders on flanks, evocations. Of course you need lots of firegems to succeed in all that. Firegems which are not available in CBM1.6 anymore.

Late game for Machaka does not exist. The game is over once the SC's enter the field. No endgame for Machaka in vanilla, not in earlier versions of CBM, and not in 1.6. The do or die time for Machaka is the mid-game, and in 1.6 there is no "do" left in that.

@Squirrel: If you honestly think LA Ulm rangers, ghoul guards and x-bowmen are not enough to take you through the early game, then you do need to learn to play the game called Dominions 3 :)

[Mardagg]

The strength of Machaka was always in my opinion the strong mid-game. They struggle early on in the game, and they quite simply suck late in the game. If Machaka is to do good, to win if you so want to say, they have to steamroll the field in the midgame (after havng survived the early phases somehow).

The Machaka PD is a joke, even with the slight boost seen in CBM 1.6. Thus Machaka is very weak against an early rush (before you have been able to summon fire-drakes to bolster the frontline and crafted enough boosters for your mages to make a difference on the battlefield). Machakan PD is famous for rushing forwards and then be killed by their own missiles... Try it in SP if you want to see the hilariosity.

The midgame is where Machaka can shine. Flaming arrows (althjugh Flaming Arros is tougher to get to in CBM), firedrakes at front, spiders on flanks, evocations. Of course you need lots of firegems to succeed in all that. Firegems which are not available in CBM1.6 anymore.

Late game for Machaka does not exist. The game is over once the SC's enter the field. No endgame for Machaka in vanilla, not in earlier versions of CBM, and not in 1.6. The do or die time for Machaka is the mid-game, and in 1.6 there is no "do" left in that.



Yeah,the PD is hilarious bad.
That should and probably will be adressed in future CBM upgrades,QM already said this.
In general,i dont mind certain nations being bad at Early game and/or Midgame and/or Late game.Part of the way and style the nation is intended to play.
Adds diversity.
If you prefer having a strong endgame ,just take a nation that got it.
I for my part like playig "fast" nations from time to time, with a bad endgame,thus being forced to get a significant advantage early on.
A bad late game sure is not advisable on huge maps,other than that u just cant turtle,which is good imo,it adds more action.
If i compare my current MP games with my history of games on Dom2,where a lot of nations were considered to have very bad Late and/or early game btw,simply too much turtling and racing for research is going on these days.If you want to turtle take a nation with good endgame,if you want to be ruthless take those giants,rushing your neigbours.

Concerning Machaka,i still do have a different opinion.
It looks to me,that those Hunter spider sacreds are now very much affordable.They make sick good,and i mean really sick good, expansion parties for the early game.In my last SP game tests,i was able to field 3-5 expansion parties by the end of year 1,taking 0 losses most of the time.4-6 spiders and only some archers are steamrolling most indies.Map move 2 and forest survival adds a lot of flexibilty there ,too.Of course,you have to take a pretty good bless for this,which is easily affordable with Machaka though,thanks to Heat 3.
I also think that keeping the spider after losing the rider shouldnt be underestimated in power,especially with a low to medium Nature bless.

If you dont take a good bless,you probably are forced to take an awake SC pretender to help with expansion,thats right.
But if i want to play Machaka,i want to play it aggressive,that fits for the theme.
Mid game is pretty good,like you said.Those Fire and Nature mages are perfect for fire drake spamming.
Late game is not the best,but at least you got early access to death and nature.Actually machaka can have a very good nature gem income pretty fast.That looks to me like a shot for GoH and Tartarians.
If you manage to get very mighty in the early and midgame,but werent able to win,you should have a decisive gem advantage at least to keep the GoH up,i would think.
Additionally,it sure comes down on having some kind of astral access.
Astral is heavily nerved bc of no gem gens,everyone is in need of those pearls.
Thats why its probably enough,if you got only some shamans arcane probing with alchemized fire gems as early as possible,so that you can at least forge some items at the end game.
Some earth sites also offer pretty good astral mages.

Needs to be tested,for sure.I will soon start a MP game playing Machaka,i am pretty curious.
They have been my favorite nation,besides Abysia,in Dom2 and even back there,Machaka was considered to be pretty weak(where i considered them pretty strong actually).

[statttis]

I'm in the midst of a CBM 1.6 game playing as Machaka, and they are in no way weak. Early on the hunter spiders are amazing. 4-5 of them can take most indies without losses, no bless required. Mid game is strong as you said. With the nerf to astral magic, in the late game your nature and death magic keep you competitive.

[WraithLord]

"If you prefer having a strong endgame ,just take a nation that got it."
Or don't play RAND games :p

"It looks to me,that those Hunter spider sacreds are now very much affordable.They make sick good,and i mean really sick good, expansion parties for the early game"
Did you read Baalz Machaka guide?- He presents a different approach and is quite convincing at that.

[thejeff]

Except that much of Baalz's guide is focused on Fever Fetishes that don't exist any more.

And I believe the Hunters have been dropped in price, which counters much of his argument against them.

Not to say his expansion tactics won't still work, though the mid/late game changes drastically without fetishes, but the other changes may make Black Hunters viable.

[WraithLord]

I'm in the midst of a CBM 1.6 game playing as Machaka, and they are in no way weak. Early on the hunter spiders are amazing. 4-5 of them can take most indies without losses, no bless required. Mid game is strong as you said. With the nerf to astral magic, in the late game your nature and death magic keep you competitive.

Ahmm, finding a solution to take indies doesn't make a nation viable. I found an easy and cheap solution to take indies with EA Agartha and got royally kicked by human opponents (in a RAND game - I'd never take Agartha of my free will :) )

And 4-5 of them cost 320-400 gold and are not cheap on resources. At the same price you can take 10-13 regular spider riders that will also take most indies easily and w/o losses. You don't need bless for them so your pretender can take SC/Rainbow/Sage duty instead.

[Mardagg]

"It looks to me,that those Hunter spider sacreds are now very much affordable.They make sick good,and i mean really sick good, expansion parties for the early game"
Did you read Baalz Machaka guide?- He presents a different approach and is quite convincing at that.

That guide is very well written,but he was using older CBM versions.
He was looking at (overpriced) 125g Hunter spiders,we are looking at 80g Hunter spiders.

[WraithLord]

Yes, 80 gold hunter spider are more viable but I still think taking a strong bless with Machaka just for them is a big mistake.

My experience with 1.6 CBM Machaka shows them to be weak when facing human opponents who know what they're doing. They are not Agartha level weak but they are not ok or good either.

[Mardagg]

[QUOTE=WraithLord;724920:)

And 4-5 of them cost 320-400 gold and are not cheap on resources. At the same price you can take 10-13 regular spider riders that will also take most indies easily and w/o losses. You don't need bless for them so your pretender can take SC/Rainbow/Sage duty instead.[/QUOTE]

try E9N4 Hunter spiders.
The real difference,besides getting a lot less afflictions and much longer life span on the rider: Regen on your Spider,after the rider died.
Thats a respectable force still in midgame imo+on a power per upkeep scale,the sacred hunters are now much better investment longterm,even though you are a bit limited with your pretender choice(imprisoned for good scales) imo.
I wouldnt rely on the hunters without a blessing,though.

[Jarkko]

Did you read Baalz Machaka guide?- He presents a different approach and is quite convincing at that.
Baalz' excellent guide on Machaka is mostly about Fever Fetishes, and how to use the cheaper spiders until you have enough Fever Fetishes to have a proper fire-gem income. Fever Fetish is a unique item in CBM 1.6, so that is not possible anymore, and thus the basis for that guide has gone to where the dodos are.

[statttis]

no bless required

Seriously, no bless is needed on your hunter spiders. You can use them for fast expansion and still have your awake SC or rainbow pretender.

At the same price you can take 10-13 regular spider riders

It's been my experience that 4-5 hunter spiders are more effective and last longer than the equivalent cost of regular spiders.

[Sombre]

I can't see why people wouldn't want to take a couple of minor blesses on the hunters. With that they are definitely more durable than spider riders, though they become obsolete more quickly.

[thejeff]

Just thinking out loud here:
E9N4 may be good, but it's still oddly mixed. E9 is great for the Riders, but the N4 is largely wasted on them, though the drop in afflictions is always good. N4+ is nice regen for the Spiders, but they don't get much from E9. Your mages aren't sacred, so the E bless doesn't help there.
Plus you've got both paths already on national mages.

How about an Astral bless? That covers your main magic lack, getting you rings and late-game spells. Any MR boost is invaluable for the Spiders, if you go to S9, Twist Fate will help the Riders, since they're low hp.
Maybe add another minor bless if you want something else on the pretender.

[statttis]

@Sombre
That's exactly what I did, though I didn't bother blessing them for fighting indies. I didn't want to waste recruitment turns at my capital buying priests. When I started fighting other players the minor bless became very useful.

With E4/N4 the riderless spiders have some nice regen and don't gain fatigue.

[Mardagg]

I can't see why people wouldn't want to take a couple of minor blesses on the hunters. With that they are definitely more durable than spider riders, though they become obsolete more quickly.

Interesting idea.gotta test this.
If you concentrate on the spider ,its probably adviseable to take more N for higher regen.Something like W4S4N6...well,now that i think of it: N9 would make the spiders pretty strong.

[Sombre]

I wouldn't consider S9 as very helpful to the spiders once they lose their riders. Their mr is still their obvious weakness and it isn't boosted enough to shore it up against mr check spells.

It's great for the riders though.

[Mardagg]

Just thinking out loud here:
E9N4 may be good, but it's still oddly mixed. E9 is great for the Riders, but the N4 is largely wasted on them, though the drop in afflictions is always good. N4+ is nice regen for the Spiders, but they don't get much from E9. Your mages aren't sacred, so the E bless doesn't help there.
Plus you've got both paths already on national mages.

How about an Astral bless? That covers your main magic lack, getting you rings and late-game spells. Any MR boost is invaluable for the Spiders, if you go to S9, Twist Fate will help the Riders, since they're low hp.
Maybe add another minor bless if you want something else on the pretender.

Yeah,its a rather odd mix,but it stayed superior for me,even after lots of testing.The build is specualized for ultrafast early expansion and troops still being useful in midgame.

Afflictions are a huge problem with the hunters,expecially for the low HP rider,N really is a must for both forms.
If you take E9 you got prot 24,so if you take damage,its often pretty low damage,like 1-3.Ive learned in my games that the lonely 1Regen helps a lot there,too.
Also your spideriders do face fatigue problems,because you are getting swarmed and many battles last 12+ turns.
The base 20 prot is as such wasted bc of critical hits sooner or later.U need reinvig for large battles.
Twist fate isnt helpful,since you are getting hit by a lot small damages.
Only thing instead of E9N4 could imo be E9N9,though u take a big hit in much needed scales there.
N9 solely makes the riders fatigue problem even bigger,though it helps the spider more.

[Trumanator]

Actually, a minor B bless would also be very helpful, as it would guarantee that your spiders' bite attack would penetrate for the death poison.

Edit: Oh, and I think people forget how incredibly tough it is to kill Machaka's mages on the battlefield when they just turn into spiders. The same applies to armageddons.

[Micah]

What's this about a nerf to astral magic now?

[Festin]

Probably this means clam nerf?

[WraithLord]

You can only recruit hunters from capital. I wouldn't spend design points to bless a capital only unit. A minor bless can work b/c usually you can get it as a side effect of SC/rainbow pretender. More than that is not required for hunters. I'm not arguing that they are not good or overpriced. I'm saying regular spider can carry the day for Machaka in early game. Don't forget that you will want your riders to die so that you get no upkeep so the regular spiders are also 0 upkeep - what's not to like.

That said, Machaka is not competitive and no FF factory hurts them a lot. I think 1 extra D/E/F/N pick on their mages is a good boost for them. Their mages, not spiders or armies are their real power.

[Sombre]

I wouldn't spend design points to bless a capital only unit.

Really? That seems a pretty bizarre restriction to me.

[WraithLord]

common, besides the fact that you can only crank so much of a sacred capital only unit (so you get diminishing potential returns on your bless investment as the game progresses) this practically cries out to shut down your capital with spies/unrest spells. And in that case you have put all the eggs in the same basket and someone will have just punched a hole in it's bottom.

[Sombre]

So your niefel build would revolve around skratti?

[Trumanator]

Well yes. Skratti are kickass.

[Mardagg]

4-5 hunters are an early game army,producable EVERY turn way before the end of year 1.They stomp indies and PD alike with no losses.
Building like 8+ per turn would indeed be putting all eggs in 1 basket.So cap only doesnt hurt here.Gold is for Forts and Mages.
Its obvious that e.g. E9N4 hunters are much more durable than unblessed ones.In turn they are much better for early expansion and early wars vs humans than the normal spiders,u prefer to use.
I pay for it with an imprisoned Pretender and odd magic paths for machaka.
Its a matter of preference,really.
Personally i think no other strat with Machaka can match the early game they got with blessed hunters now.Its not even close.
Thats why i like it.

[Squirrelloid]

N4 doesn't seem to make a big difference in black hunter performance. Given they have N natively, I'd rather invest in other blesses or scattered magic paths.

Consider F4 for some more offensive punch - should benefit all the attacks, and you're going to be outnumbered so better offense is good.

Consider S for just general use later, irrespective of its 'bless' potential.

I'd probably use a GE or Sphinx chassis imprisoned, and grab at least plausibly good scales. (Pr3L3 are the ones i'd definitely try to get. Dr2 is acceptable, H3 is obvious. Could consider turmoil, but i'd rather take the drain so i had more cash to build forts/labs. Growth or Order is good if you can find the points).

[Mardagg]

N4 doesn't seem to make a big difference in black hunter performance. Given they have N natively, I'd rather invest in other blesses or scattered magic paths.




Afflictions are a pain for the hunter riders,since low HP units with high prot do survive some hits,but have a v high affliction chance.U rack them up in no time.

I prefer having N4 therefore for much reduced affliction chance,regen on the rider(low but makes a difference together with high prot) and foremost,regen on the spider.
Ive tried all possible bless combos keeping decent scales in mind,and E9N4+ seems to make early game with hunters the best.
F4 looks ok on paper,but i dont have the points left after choosing my build.Earth Mother for E+N seems ideal...for me.
I wont tell my scales,since i plan to use this build in my next MP game.

[vfb]

I wouldn't take E9 with CBM, E9 will just keep your rider alive longer. Now that MR on the hunter spider is acceptable, there's not much reason to want the rider to stay alive. So, grab yourself a rainbow bless and/or some nice scales.

[Mardagg]

I wouldn't take E9 with CBM, E9 will just keep your rider alive longer. Now that MR on the hunter spider is acceptable, there's not much reason to want the rider to stay alive. So, grab yourself a rainbow bless and/or some nice scales.

The rider got a lot more offensive power.
If you want to push the early game with Machaka as much as possible,like i do,E9 is a must.Reinvig + 4 more protection make your riders like 3 times more durable.
And i get pretty nice scales,too,btw...

But sure,like Sombre mentioned before,concentrating on the spider is an interesting option now and allows for a lot more magic diversity.The MR is still low,though.

[Squirrelloid]

See, i don't like N4 because in testing the riders rarely took damage at all against indies, so who cares if they reinvig? And against other players your sacreds are hardly your strength. And when they did get an affliction I generally didn't care.

I'd rather get some astral on my pretender, for example, or do just about anything but get more N in a nation that already routinely gets N3 on Sorcerors.

Great Mother seems like a waste of points since there's no real reason to invest in a super high dominion either. Take a master druid if you absolutely must have E+N.

[vfb]

The rider got a lot more offensive power.

Are we talking about the same thing?. The only weaponry on a Black Hunter that's more damaging than a Hunter Spider is its lance. And it gets to use that once per battle. And since your numbers are probably smaller than enemy numbers, oneshot weapons don't make a whole lot of difference. If you're fighting equivalent-sized units: you own Elephants no matter what shape you are in; if you're fighting Hydras, then you're better off in spider shape anyway.

I'd rather pay zero upkeep than have the lance.

If you want to push the early game with Machaka as much as possible,like i do,E9 is a must.Reinvig + 4 more protection make your riders like 3 times more durable.

Yeah, that was my whole point. You want the rider to die.

And i get pretty nice scales,too,btw...

Good for you. With a rainbow bless, you'll have additional magic diversity too.

But sure,like Sombre mentioned before,concentrating on the spider is an interesting option now and allows for a lot more magic diversity.The MR is still low,though.

No it's not, it's 10, which is average (and just 1 less than the rider had). And it's more than 10 if you take an S bless from a rainbow god.

E9 buys you nothing for the late game, and it makes your net income lower.

[Mardagg]

Huh?
The rider got a spear in addition to the lance.
In addition,the death poison attack of the rider is strength 18,whereas the spider only bites with strength 13.Thats quite a big difference for such a powerful attack.

[Mardagg]

See, i don't like N4 because in testing the riders rarely took damage at all against indies, so who cares if they reinvig? And against other players your sacreds are hardly your strength. And when they did get an affliction I generally didn't care.

I'd rather get some astral on my pretender, for example, or do just about anything but get more N in a nation that already routinely gets N3 on Sorcerors.

Great Mother seems like a waste of points since there's no real reason to invest in a super high dominion either. Take a master druid if you absolutely must have E+N.

right,with E9 your riders are hardly damaged,but if you are swarmed in big indie fights that 1regen +less affliction chance is extremely good.They are hit rarely,but its like ever 2nd or 3rd hit gets them an affliction without N blessing!

Also,i am talkin about early game,meaning also attacking humans as early as the the start of year 2,when you definately absolutely can rely on your hunters.In those fights,Nature is even more important.
Also,N makes the spider much better after the rider died(for the 4th time now!).

Sure,S on pretender would be nice.I have to rely on Shamans and arcane probing to at least to be able to forge some items later on.Without clams though,your opponents wont field that much astral anymore.And since i want to emphazize on early and midgame with that paths,i dont care.
You can also find good astral mages on earth sites e.g..

You are right,the Master Druid leaves you with 184 points left taking Dom 5 ,the mother 168.If u take Dom 6,they are equal.
Thanks for this,the Druid is indeed slightly better there..

[Quitti]

Without clams though,your opponents wont field that much astral anymore.

I beg to differ. Most of the really good astral spells do not require massive amounts of pearls, and the fact that astral nations still are astral nations means that they will field astral magic against you. Unless you specifically somehow counter their astral battlefield magic instead of their usually weaker/equal other paths. Lack of clams reduce the amount of wishing and possible empowers, which lets you concentrate your pearl/research resources elsewhere. The nation with reliable national astral magic would be stupid to not use it.

[WraithLord]

Mardagg, your strategy is ok for SP. For MP its problematic. No strong astral is bad in late game. No access to water hurts too. If you make it to late game you'd be left with a bless that is only good for a capital only now easy to counter average MR unit.

Where I fighting your build I'd have MHed all your mages and enslaved/soul slayed your armies. I'd have shut down your capital production as my first shot in the war. Astral pretty much rules end game and your bless has denied you any piece of that cake.

I'd say Machaka needs either awake SC or awake/sleeping rainbow (with s6,d5, w3 for example)

[Sombre]

Shouldn't the hunter spider have str 18?

[Mardagg]

[QUOTE=Mardagg;725042]
No it's not, it's 10, which is average (and just 1 less than the rider had). And it's more than 10 if you take an S bless from a rainbow god.

E9 buys you nothing for the late game, and it makes your net income lower.

lol,what do you want to achieve here?
You want to show me how useful spiders are now in later battles vs humans?
MR 10,MR 11,hell even MR14 with S9 blessing are a joke for an Sc type expensive unit.
They are for Early game mainly and to a lesser extend for midgame.
I dont need any MR there,i dont need any S9 there.
S9 makes the hunters much worse in comparison to E9 vs indies and early game humans.
U cant rely on spiders wihtout riders alone for that matter.
IF u would take S9N9,we could talk again.But that really doesnt allow for good scales anymore and still leaves u with a v fragile rider and a durable but weak offensive spider.
And why do you even talk about late game,when i always stated that i concentrate on early game with that blessing??

[Mardagg]

Shouldn't the hunter spider have str 18?

after the rider died,they are strength 11,venomous fang attack is strength 2 then.

[Mardagg]

Mardagg, your strategy is ok for SP. For MP its problematic. No strong astral is bad in late game. No access to water hurts too. If you make it to late game you'd be left with a bless that is only good for a capital only now easy to counter average MR unit.

Where I fighting your build I'd have MHed all your mages and enslaved/soul slayed your armies. I'd have shut down your capital production as my first shot in the war. Astral pretty much rules end game and your bless has denied you any piece of that cake.

I'd say Machaka needs either awake SC or awake/sleeping rainbow (with s6,d5, w3 for example)

yeah ,i know.
Basically i am saying,that a much better early game makes up for that on many maps.
I still got Nature and Death for Tartarians,Astral summons/rituals are a lot less common without clams.
I rely on spiders early to mid,to ideally get number 1 or 2 in provinces.
Then i support them with dragon mastered sorcerers summoining 3 fire drakes per turn and mages.
Late game tartarians with GoH up,due to my early power i should have v high gem income.

And,btw u cant shut down my capital January Year2.
Later on i dont rely on spiders much anymore at all,but i still will have like 50+ hunters left,because they simply never ever die vs indies.
What u are mixing up is my game plan with the general game plan,advisable for standard builds.

i mean common,after all the developers even thought that 120g hunters are balanced.I even took that build for fun purposes at that time and wasnt that disappointed at all.Now you basically get a free spider every 3 u produce.Also u get nice gold income since ur upkeep stays pretty low with those low number sacred units.
we got 33% decrease in cost now,mind you,thats HUUGE!
Maybe even overpowered,seriously.

[WraithLord]

The problem is not the price on hunters. It's lack of synergy.

Your plan sounds ok. I'd even give it a try in a few SP test games. The thing is that no matter how you turn it Machaka still remains a weak nation IMO. I think their mages should be boosted or they should get some unique (sacred --> for bless) summons.

[Jarkko]

Mardagg, it might be a good idea to test your Machaka in MP. From the way it looks to me, it would be very apparent to any human player you rely heavily on capital only sacreds. The AI is not capable of doing the remote attacks, but you can be guaranteed humans will use things like Rain of Toads, Hurricane, Locust Swarms, Blight, Baleful Star on your capital; expect the raiders to land in your capital to wreak even more havoc (Machaka PD sucks donkey balls, so even half-witted raiders will rout the PD). Worse, your mages in the capital will be mindhunted if it is apparent you have zero astral mages there (there will be an Astral projection cast on your capital, and if it succeeds, next turn lots machakan brains will fry).

Those are not late-game strategies, they are the midgame ones; of course you can rely on luck and hope you find a site with astral shamans/amazons, but that would be quite a gamble. Besides, having somebody who can forge Crystal shield and crystal matrixes would be quite a big boon (with the chronical need for firegems Machaka has, one should not forget the possibility of Power of the Spheres and the artifical communions, which save firegems for more urgent needs).

[Mardagg]

The problem is not the price on hunters. It's lack of synergy.

Your plan sounds ok. I'd even give it a try in a few SP test games. The thing is that no matter how you turn it Machaka still remains a weak nation IMO. I think their mages should be boosted or they should get some unique (sacred --> for bless) summons.

My build synergizes great for early game expansion.
I believe this is what makes Machaka strong now.
U believe its the mages.
I dont agree there since u are lacking Astral and Blood.
U want to cut on the weaknesses ,I want to emphazize on the strengths.
Both are valid approaches in general.

boosting their mages will not happen,QM said that.Its not thematic and they are good enough considering they got the spider form for quite a big survivabilty in huge battles.
What i would like to see is making the assassin non cap only.
But that probably not thematic,too.
Increase the PD at least.
I believe Machaka to be pretty good now,if are able to include the 33% decrease in cost for the sacred in your strat somehow.

[vfb]

Huh?
The rider got a spear in addition to the lance.
In addition,the death poison attack of the rider is strength 18,whereas the spider only bites with strength 13.Thats quite a big difference for such a powerful attack.

It's not a poison attack for either 18 or 13 dam. It's a physical attack, with death poison if the defender takes any damage. I only ever see little green 3s and 4s, no matter if it's the spiders with riders, or just spiders. If you're worried 13 is not enough to punch thru MA armor, you can add B4. You even get a little more out of that spear you like, in that case. I'm not too excited about spears.

[Mardagg]

Jarkko,i only need my capital for the first 12-14 turns so to speak.Once u reach the critical mass of Hunters u dont desparately need to produce them every turn anymore.

Shamans at least u should get,no?
Getting even more lucky with other sites,is at least possible.
u can always paint scenarios on how to crush certain builds.
How do you want do stop 2 hunter armies,E9N4 blessed,16 hunters each,showing up on your borders January Year 2?
Now u can find 1-2 or nations able to do that.
Maybe 1-2 more if they would known before the game that they start as a neigbour of me,using that strat.

@vfb

man.
So first u are telling me the spider is equally good offensive.Now,that u agree the rider has double Number of attack per turn and higher strength for the bite attack,meaning a LOT more offensive power since u are getting swarmed(=battle last quite some time),u just say: no,i am not excited about the spears.
How about saying: Hey,sorry, I was wrong!

You know what,we will see what the future will bring.
Probably it will need some MP Machaka wins or some lost battles vs Machaka for some of you guys until you agree.
Or it will prove ,i was wrong.
Certainly,though,no one of you guys did brought up points that let me to rethink my soon to be MP plan.

Lets move on,...how about MA Abysia now:D

[vfb]

No it's not, it's 10, which is average (and just 1 less than the rider had). And it's more than 10 if you take an S bless from a rainbow god.

E9 buys you nothing for the late game, and it makes your net income lower.

lol,what do you want to achieve here?
You want to show me how useful spiders are now in later battles vs humans?
MR 10,MR 11,hell even MR14 with S9 blessing are a joke for an Sc type expensive unit.
They are for Early game mainly and to a lesser extend for midgame.
I dont need any MR there,i dont need any S9 there.
S9 makes the hunters much worse in comparison to E9 vs indies and early game humans.
U cant rely on spiders wihtout riders alone for that matter.
IF u would take S9N9,we could talk again.But that really doesnt allow for good scales anymore and still leaves u with a v fragile rider and a durable but weak offensive spider.
And why do you even talk about late game,when i always stated that i concentrate on early game with that blessing??

What I want to achieve: I don't want to pay upkeep for my spider horde, that's what I want.

You said spider MR was less than average, and that's wrong, because it's exactly average.

And I do want E+S on my god for the late game. I never said S9. Obviously you are joking about that, since S9 is for low-prot jags/vestals, not for a high-HP regenerating beast.

I don't understand why you say that you only want to concentrate on the early game. You don't even need E9 in the early game, unless you are trying to get all your Black Hunters to survive to the midgame in rider form. If all you want to do is expand in the early game, take an A3W3E3F3N3D3B3S3 bless, that will do you just fine.

If you must know, I'm using a E4N4S4B4 bless.

How well does that work, versus E9N4?

Well, a few more spiders will be in spider form instead of having riders. Damn you riders, die! So you'll still have to fork out some monthly cash for their pensions. But not as much as if they all had riders.

Your god will have done some nice site-searching for you, it's not like you need him fighting. E4N4S4B4 is not all you get with a rainbow, so he can find sites with a minor path like W too. He'll be able to forge lots of nice items, summon some golems, maybe throw in a few surpises here and there. He can make all the rings you want. He can actually dispel stuff.

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, admittedly SP, but here's my results with E9 plus some assorted other things (F4S4)

Independents:
As few as 3 spiders routinely beat independents and never acquired either an affliction nor lost a rider.

Typical deployment was 10+ of the machakan spear infantry (no armor, shields) front and center set to hold and attack with spiders (usually 5+) on the side set to attack rear, often leading to the spiders intercepting advancing meleers on the side (breaking up their formation, but generally resulting in at least one spider being swarmed). The good protection helped avoid injuries, but also webbing prevented numerous troops from attacking.

(Archers were used as appropriate against suitable indie types like barbs, although just 3 spiders generally did just fine against tribals or standard (militia/light/heavy infantry + archers) independents in not unreasonable numbers.)

Against AI:
AI armies were slightly more worrying, actually succeeding in occasionally killing a spider or two. Some afflictions resulted, although most of them weren't relevant. (Never Healing Wounds and Weakened are mostly irrelevant, for example. Never saw a crippled or limp black hunter, which would have been the most annoying. The worst affliction i got was diseased, and when the rider died the spider was not diseased iirc).

[vfb]

...
@vfb

man.
So first u are telling me the spider is equally good offensive.Now,that u agree the rider has double Number of attack per turn and higher strength for the bite attack,meaning a LOT more offensive power since u are getting swarmed(=battle last quite some time),u just say: no,i am not excited about the spears.
How about saying: Hey,sorry, I was wrong!
...

Oh, thanks.

Yeah, the Spiders get two attacks too, since the 2nd web attack does not depend on the 1st attack doing damage. So, you see a lot more webs too, in spider form. The higher attack in spider form helps too. Glad you finally agree!

[Mardagg]

in my recent SP Game,i did attack 20 Knights,15 longbowman and some chaff with nothing but 7 hunters+prophet and the starting archers on turn 5.

I only lost 3 riders in that battle.

I just took the hunters in front,my archers in that case did not fire archers bc ive often encountered problems there ,with the knights attacking the archers.

Generally some of your own Archers on fire close,hunters in front,is enough for 95% of all indies,losing occasionally a rider only.
Your archers never ever hit your riders(gotta pay attention to your spiders,though) and make the indies rout earlier in close combat vs your hunters.

[Mardagg]

...
@vfb

man.
So first u are telling me the spider is equally good offensive.Now,that u agree the rider has double Number of attack per turn and higher strength for the bite attack,meaning a LOT more offensive power since u are getting swarmed(=battle last quite some time),u just say: no,i am not excited about the spears.
How about saying: Hey,sorry, I was wrong!
...

Oh, thanks.

Yeah, the Spiders get two attacks too, since the 2nd web attack does not depend on the 1st attack doing damage. So, you see a lot more webs too, in spider form. The higher attack in spider form helps too. Glad you finally agree!

wow,yeah!How could i forgot that.
Now,is totally obvious that they are at the very least equally powerful as the rider.
Wow,man,i suck.you owned me,man,totally.

[Mardagg]

[QUOTE=vfb;725054]
??

What I want to achieve: I don't want to pay upkeep for my spider horde, that's what I want.

You said spider MR was less than average, and that's wrong, because it's exactly average.

And I do want E+S on my god for the late game. I never said S9. Obviously you are joking about that, since S9 is for low-prot jags/vestals, not for a high-HP regenerating beast.

I don't understand why you say that you only want to concentrate on the early game. You don't even need E9 in the early game, unless you are trying to get all your Black Hunters to survive to the midgame in rider form. If all you want to do is expand in the early game, take an A3W3E3F3N3D3B3S3 bless, that will do you just fine.

If you must know, I'm using a E4N4S4B4 bless.

How well does that work, versus E9N4?

Well, a few more spiders will be in spider form instead of having riders. Damn you riders, die! So you'll still have to fork out some monthly cash for their pensions. But not as much as if they all had riders.

Your god will have done some nice site-searching for you, it's not like you need him fighting. E4N4S4B4 is not all you get with a rainbow, so he can find sites with a minor path like W too. He'll be able to forge lots of nice items, summon some golems, maybe throw in a few surpises here and there. He can make all the rings you want. He can actually dispel stuff.

for the record,i said MR is still low.
What i meant by low i did make clear in my last post.
U didnt say at any point in your posts what you are using for magic paths ,u were just randomly nitpicking on my statements,even giving away just plain wrong game info here and there.Overseeing the spear and the much lower strength on the Spider form,just let me to the conclusion you have no idea what you are talking about,at that time.
the spider bite will penetrate alot more often the opponents armor on the rider form,thus triggering the death poison more often.
The fangs of the spider form dont web,JUST LOOK AT THE GAME ONE TIME.So both forms got exactly 1 chance to web.Excuse if i understand your statement there wrong,it was a little confusing.
Your build is interesting.
Sombre came up with that point much earlier though and i did agree.It helps to read the whole thread before posting.
Your build is interesting but much inferior to E9N4 for early game purposes.Just test it and then compare.I did this tests already months ago,when CBM1.6 came out.
E4N4S4x4 awake pretender means worse scales and worse early expansion than my build,using imprisoned pretender.
U solve the S problem though,which i can only solve with having luck.Some riders die,some still dont for you.Its not much upkeep u got less there.Your offensive power for fights vs humans is considerable less though with spiders only.
For midgame though,imagine you got mostly spiders, I got mostly riders.Essentially my troops can survive a lot longer simply bc of the 2 shapes.
Also having Protection 20 is a lot worse than 24.Ive encountered those 4 points of armor make a huge difference in the MA.

[WraithLord]

Come Mardagg, I invite you to use this build in the next MP game I host (after first Sharivar ends). Let's see how it holds up against non newb human players. I'm truly interested in the results and not being sarcastic, condescending or any some such.

[Mardagg]

i am absolutely sure we will meet somewhere in the future;)

Currently i am doing well in both of my MP games,gotta wait until i am down to 1 game.
I will host a game then,MA standard settings,you are very much invited.
Maybe,just maybe,i will have the surprise effect again then at that time...because atm every non newb would know before the game starts what i am up for.

Actually i am very unhappy about how everyone knows my build beforehand now and especially about how the discussion unfolded.
I should never have posted in detail here:(

[WraithLord]

looking forward to meeting you in the future ;)

And hey, everyone knows that Mictlan's optimal/popular build is dual+ bless usually s9f9 or that the giant bless nations like E9N6. That doesn't make them weak, not even remotely.

[Jarkko]

Mardagg, your point will be much stronger if you are succesfull with the "E9N4 bless on hunters" -strategy when 'everybody' knows you'll be using it. If it would be succesfull one time when nobody expects it, it would be just put down as a fluke ("yeah, it was succesfull in that one game, but that proves nothing" -style) :)

[Makinus]

In the past few days i´ve been looking at the discussion in this thread and tried playing Machaka with both schemes (bless strategy/riderless spiders strategy) to see what my mileage gets...

After some SP playing i find that the riderless spider strategy is unbeatable in the early game, and gets much more bang for the buck than the big blessed spiders strategy...

The big blessed spiders, at least in SP, is however more powerfull after you expanded a little and is able to max produce the sacred spiders from the capital and is more effective if you are able to produce 10+ sacred spiders a turn (either via initial dominion of by building temples to increase production). About the bless i found that an E bless does little to the sacred spiders, while even a small N bless does improve a lot the sacred spiders survivability (specially their riders). A good W bless do help a lot too.


I found both fun and strategycally sound, at least in SP, to create a F2W4S4N4 great sage pretender and produce only brown spiders for the first year and a half, then, after i expanded my nation and have at least a second castle, start producing sacred spiders in the capital and brown spiders elsewhere...

On the mage front, i always produce the Sorceress and forget about the witch doctors... some Black sorcerers for their paths but research wise i leave everything in the hands of the sorceress and they are very interesting as combat commanders because of their spider forms....

[Mardagg]

good point Jarkko:)

[thejeff]

Interesting. I find the Sorceresses weak. Not bad for research and neat for the spider form, but at 1F1E1D they're not what I want to be using my one capital commander slot for. I'd buy tons of them if they were recruitable everywhere. As it is, they get bought when I can't afford the real prize.
Like most top end capital only mages, I can't get enough Black Sorcerers. They're your high end mages in most paths, your best battle mages, etc.
Since they have the Spider form, they even make decent thugs. And you'll want a lot to get the random combinations.
Since Witch Doctors have lousy research, I'll buy a couple for specific duties, but I don't want a bunch of them sitting around.

On the uberbless vs minor bless vs no bless controversy, the big spiders seem pretty effective at expansion even without a bless. You'll lose a few more, but I'm not sure you lose enough to actually slow the expansion pace. And if you're not relying on a bless, you can build researchers instead of priests in the early turns.

I haven't played with the little spiders enough to say how effective they are for expansion.

[WraithLord]

riderless spiders are the way to go. 0 upkeep for great expansion parties and tough armies (when backed by mages).

The problem is, it's not enough. Machaka needs a modest boost to become good instead of Meh. Perhaps some spider like summons from the jungles and caves of Machaka's native turf. I don't know, something, anything to make this interesting nation actually competitive.

[Alpine Joe]

wraithlord's idea of the extra randoms is probably the best call. A simple change, but greatly increases the nation's effectiveness.

[Mardagg]

Its just too early to call for another boost.
After all,they just received the -33% cost reduction on the top tier unit.QM stated some pages ago,that he doesnt think Machaka needs more boost besides the PD.
Better to speak again in six months on that topic.

MA Ulm is much more important,i support Quitti there.
I just fired up a game with them and I must say they are the only nation i would refuse to play in the whole dominion world.
There are some people here arguing LA Ulm is weak...well,if i compare LA with MA,its getting ridicilous.
There is practically not a single area in which LA isnt better than MA.
The mages lack N,D,S,B(A,W).
The enc is way too high on all troops and essentially taking the guardian out of the game,which is needed to counter rushes.
Iron Angel is very difficult to cast with that requirements.
No endgame,tough early game,and nothing special midgame wise.
just plain bad.
Making the iron angel more easy to cast isnt enough here imo.
Am i missing something?

[Sombre]

qm isn't going to go adding paths to mages anyway. He's said that many times.

[Mardagg]

I got some ideas for MA Ulm.
MA Ulm wants to win per force and not per magic.

1.
Make the guardian non-cap only.
Alternatively make him slightly better and add a new unit,something like "Black Guards",which is a non-cap only weaker version of the guardian(important here: also no shield!).

2.
Give MA Ulm a Relief type battlefield wide spell that costs E gems.

3.
Make the Iron Angel E3 or E4.

[Squirrelloid]

...

Make their heavy armor actually beneficial by reducing its encumbrance by 2 points? Surely the most skilled smiths in all dominions history can make armor which fits well and is lighter than its strength implies.

[thejeff]

As was hinted at above it seems really odd to me that the spiders (black and brown) have different bite damage depending on whether they have riders or not. That makes no sense. It's the same spider, it should be the same bite.

It won't make a big difference in terms of balance, but the riderless spiders getting the higher damage would be nice.

[Quitti]

Also on the MA Ulm issue, even making that 10% F/S/A random on master smiths a 100% one would be a good asset, compared to what they get now. In addition to reducing the cost/requirements of Iron angels.

I know that QM is reluctant to add new content, such as spells, so reducing enc of the ulm blacksteel armors by 1 or 2 would create the same effect. Though that would make the ulmish full chains useless, so they would require some looking into also.

[Sombre]

Could reduce enc on the blacksteels but increase resource cost even more. That would make the units distinct.

[WraithLord]

How fares MA Man in CBM 1.6?- In vanilla it is weak, has that improved?

[Wrana]

Could reduce enc on the blacksteels but increase resource cost even more. That would make the units distinct.

Agree. It seems like a logical way to do it.

[kianduatha]

How fares MA Man in CBM 1.6?- In vanilla it is weak, has that improved?

In CBM 1.6 they just got Wardens/Warden Lords recruit-everywhere, so they have a really stepped up stealth-raiding force. You still can't trust ever getting a Crone with E2 or W2, but the chances are way better than in vanilla.

It's hard to tell if they're still weak, though.

[Tolkien]

How fares MA Man in CBM 1.6?- In vanilla it is weak, has that improved?
I would say they are certainly still one of the weaker nations in the game. Certainly recruit-everywhere wardens helps, but it's not quite enough.

[Trumanator]

Its debatable that CBM actually weakens Man a little, since it moved Flaming Arrows to ench 5.

[WraithLord]

That's strange. I fired up a test game with MA Man under CBM 1.6 and didn't see wardens at all. Were they removed from the capital?

[Humakty]

You must have had a mod conflict (or anything...) because I could swear (almost :) ) I've seen them as recruit anywhere troops.

I'm perfectly sure you can't have a troop recruitable everywhere but not in the capital !

[WraithLord]

Well I do have BI (Better Independents) on as well. No other mod.

[WraithLord]

ok I ran some tests. BI 2.1 conflicts with CBM 1.6 and removes wardens altogether.

[WraithLord]

I really appreciate QM's work on CBM but I must say I dislike the changes made to MA MAN. Specifically making warden recruitable in all castles is bad. I mean who needs yet another run-of-the-mill EN bless nations?- And why commit this to MA Man who was weak but had flavor. Now it's less weak but has no flavor. Who will ever want to recruit them archers or knights of Avalon under a strong bless?

Man could have been made stronger by giving it Merlin (S3+3 random picks) and Morgan Le Fay (s2d2n2?) heroes and by making mothers cheaper (100g) or have +2MR (so that they won't get MHed to death in mid-late game. It could have been tweaked in any other way, but making it another bless nation for me kills the last residues of fun it might have had.

[chrispedersen]

I really appreciate QM's work on CBM but I must say I dislike the changes made to MA MAN. Specifically making warden recruitable in all castles is bad. I mean who needs yet another run-of-the-mill EN bless nations?- And why commit this to MA Man who was weak but had flavor. Now it's less weak but has no flavor. Who will ever want to recruit them archers or knights of Avalon under a strong bless?

Man could have been made stronger by giving it Merlin (S3+3 random picks) and Morgan Le Fay (s2d2n2?) heroes and by making mothers cheaper (100g) or have +2MR (so that they won't get MHed to death in mid-late game. It could have been tweaked in any other way, but making it another bless nation for me kills the last residues of fun it might have had.

I particularly like the idea of Morgan/Morgana Le Fey (who would cause unrest), and perhaps some of the more famous arthurian knights (Lancelot, Gawain, Galahad, Tristam, Percival, etc) or perhaps a generic multihero: Knight of the Round table

[Squirrelloid]

I'm not convinced adding a few heroes would actually make Man stronger.

Giving them something other than N or A as a real path would, but QM doesn't do that.

[Wrana]

I really appreciate QM's work on CBM but I must say I dislike the changes made to MA MAN. Specifically making warden recruitable in all castles is bad. I mean who needs yet another run-of-the-mill EN bless nations?- And why commit this to MA Man who was weak but had flavor. Now it's less weak but has no flavor. Who will ever want to recruit them archers or knights of Avalon under a strong bless?
...
It could have been tweaked in any other way, but making it another bless nation for me kills the last residues of fun it might have had.

Agree on this.
Another thing - EA C'tis got the price on their Hierodulae reduced again. I think this is completely off-target: they aren't recruited not because they are too costly, but because they are worthless. So the fix should be to give them some worthwhile ability, not reduce their price (even at 0, they would still require fort-turn - and High Priests pray better, bless better and can find lvl 2 holy sites...). In keeping with what they actually are, I'd think that the best ability for them is to produce (via summon or domsummon) some lizardmen units - I'd say normal lizard troopers/dancers/other Hierodulae or Princes at different domsummon levels.

[Frozen Lama]

I think people just need to accept that some units are useless. not every single sub-par unit needs to be tweaked.

[Lingchih]

How fares MA Man in CBM 1.6?- In vanilla it is weak, has that improved?

I'm playing them now in Utopia under 1.6, but it's not really a good game to judge them on, since money and resources are set to 250%.

They seem fine to me, though with perhaps less flavor, but when you can recruit 30 Knights of Avalon in one turn, it's kind of hard to judge what they would be like in a normal game :D

[Squirrelloid]

Wardens everywhere is actually in-line with flavor. They're supposed to guard mothers, and mothers are everywhere. The previous discrepancy in recruit options between the two made no sense.

[vfb]

Hierodulae are the best blood hunters for MA C'tis, before you empower/summon a B mage.

I really appreciate QM's work on CBM but I must say I dislike the changes made to MA MAN. Specifically making warden recruitable in all castles is bad. I mean who needs yet another run-of-the-mill EN bless nations?- And why commit this to MA Man who was weak but had flavor. Now it's less weak but has no flavor. Who will ever want to recruit them archers or knights of Avalon under a strong bless?
...
It could have been tweaked in any other way, but making it another bless nation for me kills the last residues of fun it might have had.

Agree on this.
Another thing - EA C'tis got the price on their Hierodulae reduced again. I think this is completely off-target: they aren't recruited not because they are too costly, but because they are worthless. So the fix should be to give them some worthwhile ability, not reduce their price (even at 0, they would still require fort-turn - and High Priests pray better, bless better and can find lvl 2 holy sites...). In keeping with what they actually are, I'd think that the best ability for them is to produce (via summon or domsummon) some lizardmen units - I'd say normal lizard troopers/dancers/other Hierodulae or Princes at different domsummon levels.

[thejeff]

Why best blood hunters? Just because they're sacred & cheap?

I'm not sure it's worth using up castle recruitment slots over the standard indy scout.

[vfb]

Yes, sacred and cheap. Indy scouts get miasma and die if you don't send them off to do actual scouting outside your dom. Whenever I was short on cash and could not hire a mage, I bought a H1 for blood hunting.

[thejeff]

Miasma. Of course.

[WraithLord]

Wardens everywhere is actually in-line with flavor. They're supposed to guard mothers, and mothers are everywhere. The previous discrepancy in recruit options between the two made no sense.
Perhaps that's true but the bless change makes a body guard unit into the main fighting unit. You're not supposed to have armies of wardens as MA MAN. Besides, the bless effect factors in and I really don't think another EN bless nation is required and certainly MA Man shouldn't fall into that category. It is not a faith nation but rather a pagan, mysterious & mystic nation, at least that's the way the myths tell it.

[Squirrelloid]

Wardens everywhere is actually in-line with flavor. They're supposed to guard mothers, and mothers are everywhere. The previous discrepancy in recruit options between the two made no sense.
Perhaps that's true but the bless change makes a body guard unit into the main fighting unit. You're not supposed to have armies of wardens as MA MAN. Besides, the bless effect factors in and I really don't think another EN bless nation is required and certainly MA Man shouldn't fall into that category. It is not a faith nation but rather a pagan, mysterious & mystic nation, at least that's the way the myths tell it.

Uh.. weren't you the person who was just referencing arthurian mythos as the inspiration for it and asking for Arthurian heroes? How is that a 'pagan, mysterious, and mystic' set of source material, especially as regards *the nation*? Most certainly religious (You don't get more religious than questing after the Grail). Only the women of avalon would be mysterious or mystic, otherwise its an early medieval feudal nation with all the political and religious implications that entails.

I would wonder which source material you would class as 'pagan', given the maybe 10% that's derived from potentially pre-Christian sources was filtered through a Christian lens. Most of the Arthurian tales are the product of 12th century or later writers like Christian de Troyes, and have very definite religious overtones. Especially the Quest for the Grail, as in, the cup of Christ? I'm especially confused how you can consider the material not heavily-faith based. Knights who successful quested for the Grail were the epitome of the perfect knight in the Arthurian romances, and had to have profound faith to succeed - ie, Galahad and Perceval. Faith is definitely the appropriate cultural ideal.

Pagan is a totally inappropriate word in this context - what does it even mean? I mean, all nations worship and have faith in a god - the pretender. That's the whole premise of the game. Thus, every other nation is 'pagan' relative to your nation, and your nation cannot be pagan. ('Pagan' is a Christian-world word most closely related to the muslim use of 'infidel' in meaning, and was used to refer to anyone who didn't have faith in the God of the Pentateuch (ie, not Jewish, Muslim, or Christian) - the modern reclamation of the word as a name for a type of spiritual practice is basically reverse propaganda. As a perjorative word, no one pre-20th century would have referred to themself as pagan. The use and meaning of the word thus best translates into 'not worshipping our pretender' in dom3 terms, as I claimed above).

Drawing a distinction between 'faith' and 'pagan' is especially offensive. None of the groups historically described as pagan would have thought of themselves as anything but religious and with faith in that religion. I certainly doubt modern pagans would similarly appreciate being told they have no faith.

[Sombre]

Yeah Wraithlord, how dare you say something so offensive to medieval peasants!

[WraithLord]

I stand corrected :D

I've no desire to stumble into the mine field which is religion either by way of overloaded terminology or semantics.

Let's stick to the point please. MA Man becoming yet another EN bless nation is lame. I'm sorry but no sugar coating would make me feel different about it. Under CBM 1.6, I feel like I don't want to ever play MA Man again and if I get it in RAND I'll probably lose any fun in the game.

[Squirrelloid]

Well, no one forces you to play them as a bless nation. It is unfortunate that KO chose a rather bizarre sacred unit for man. (Seriously, where did heavily armored magical men come from?) I would have figured them for a sacred cavalry nation based on the theme.

But lets face it, if you're not playing Man as just another EN bless nation, you're playing them as just another archer nation. They don't really have much worthwhile to set themselves apart, especially since their magery is basically 'like Eriu, but with more suck'. And we already know how well that worked out for Eriu...

[Sombre]

no one forces you to play them as a bless nation.

Yar.

I don't really get how a simple change like making wardens recruit everywhere has ruined the entire nation for you.

[WraithLord]

Well, in SP I can do all kind of fun experiments but in MP I minimax like hell. If I have sacred mages and blessed heavy armor, 5 Enc, moderate HP unit recruitable everywhere then EN bless becomes an efficiency consideration so strong that I can’t in good conscious not take it for an MP game.
The EN looks great on wardens.
The E looks great on sacred mages.
The N looks great on old diseased mages (shroud).

It’s the ripple effect. Small change, big difference :)

Squirrelloid, you have a point there. I just wish Man would have been tweaked in another manner, one that would make it more unique and fun.

[Humakty]

Well, from the reports I recall on MA Man MP games, I think giving them some early strategy to pursue easily can't be called 'ruining this nation game'. Afterall, they're considered really weak. Crones are a frustration on their own rigth !

[Belac]

I think an E/N bless makes sense for MA Man. Consider its mythical influences: Wheel of Time, Lord of the Rings, Arthurian legend. All feature great swordsmen capable of fighting all day without fatigue and without being hindered by minor wounds. Stealthy elite infantry with that bless are reminiscent of the Rangers of Ithilien, the Lord Wardens are reminiscent of the Warders from WoT (combined with Two Rivers Longbowmen)...it gives Man a stealth-and-endurance feel, small elite armies against hordes, that is really quite interesting.

[Zeldor]

MA Man still sucks. Sure, their troops can take on indies and some nations, but their mages are really uncool. And this nation is extremely frustrating. You can get to midgame, that's the reason for all that frustration. Because you get there and then everyoen can own you so easily. But they don't even have to - you will want to commit suicide, seeing all crones with good randoms die every winter. They are nature nation and even N4 mages are old! They live 170 years, 120 above old age limit, to die when you take over the empire. It says a lot.

[Lingchih]

I think an E/N bless makes sense for MA Man. Consider its mythical influences: Wheel of Time, Lord of the Rings, Arthurian legend. All feature great swordsmen capable of fighting all day without fatigue and without being hindered by minor wounds. Stealthy elite infantry with that bless are reminiscent of the Rangers of Ithilien, the Lord Wardens are reminiscent of the Warders from WoT (combined with Two Rivers Longbowmen)...it gives Man a stealth-and-endurance feel, small elite armies against hordes, that is really quite interesting.

Yes, I believe the Wardens were based on the Warders from the Wheel of Time books. But Warders were only trained in Tar Valon, so making them recruit anywhere strays from that.

[Tollund]

Yes, I believe the Wardens were based on the Warders from the Wheel of Time books. But Warders were only trained in Tar Valon, so making them recruit anywhere strays from that.

The mothers would also only have been trained there.

There are plenty of nations where one could make the argument that more units should be capital only if you are going by where they are trained. Units should really only be made capital only if there is a compelling balance reason that they should be.

[Belac]

Yes, I believe the Wardens were based on the Warders from the Wheel of Time books. But Warders were only trained in Tar Valon, so making them recruit anywhere strays from that.

The mothers would also only have been trained there.

There are plenty of nations where one could make the argument that more units should be capital only if you are going by where they are trained. Units should really only be made capital only if there is a compelling balance reason that they should be.

That too. My main point is that Man is actually a pretty interesting E/N bless nation (aside from the old age on best mages thing).

[Wrana]

I'd say it would be better if their mages would be somewhat improved instead of making Wardens recruitable everywhere. Another thing which is bad about them is that capital-only (which is thematically sound!) Daughters are not very usable. Maybe thay should get some interesting bonus...
Speaking of which, I noted that C'tis Hierodulae got a price drop, seemingly in an attempt to make them somewhat useful. I think this is wrong approach - they aren't bad because they are pricy for what they do, they are bad because C'tis has much more useful commanders. I'd offer to give them an ability in line with their main function ;) - make them domsummon lizard troops, possibly including elite ones: Temple Dancers and Princes.

[Belac]

Hierodules replace Miasma-vulnerable indy priests for C'tis--cheap, weak H1s, useful for temple-building and blesses in minor battles that don't warrant a H3 caster or when the nation can't afford one. The few times I've played MA C'tis, I've recruited 1 or 2 in the expansion phase, then never again, but I was glad to have those 1 or 2 so my prophet could do other things.

Man would definitely benefit from better mages. Less severe old age and better randoms on the crones would do it, even.

[Wrana]

Hierodules replace Miasma-vulnerable indy priests for C'tis--cheap, weak H1s, useful for temple-building and blesses in minor battles that don't warrant a H3 caster or when the nation can't afford one. The few times I've played MA C'tis, I've recruited 1 or 2 in the expansion phase, then never again, but I was glad to have those 1 or 2 so my prophet could do other things.


Well, C'tis isn't only Miasma. I actually meant more EA, which I tried in SP some days ago (though LA is Miasma-free, too). And it has recruitable everywhere H2 priest and a Prince - priest-thug with map move 3. And I think that even in Miasma if all what you need is cheap temple-builder, you don't necessarily need Hierodula - especially if you'd have to move her across the map. What I offer gives her a unique niche.

[Sombre]

I don't see qm adding it and I don't think it makes sense to justify it as her spawning offspring. Autosummons etc are hard to balance and tend to create annoying secondary economies which don't rely on gold or even gems.

qm did try some national commanders summoning extra troops but quickly took it out.

[Sir_Dr_D]

But doing that, or giving them some other ability to make them unique is the only way to get anyone to hire those secondary commanders at all. Even if they were free, you are better off recruiting your most powerfull mage.
Even if some of those commanders could auto "train" a small number of troops, I would still see myself getting mages most of the time.

[Trumanator]

You're right, but that's just the way its going to be with the current system. Perhaps one thing that could help would be to try and make more national commanders thuggable, but that's not a real solution. In the end, unless you're playing an NI map or national commanders become recruitable outside a fort somehow they're going to run a very long third to mages and spies/assassins.