How many heroes?

[Adept]

Hello again,

I've been under the impression that all nations have 3+ national heroes. Some of the players in my group disagree.

I'm sure somebody here knows how this is.

[SlipperyJim]

It depends on the nation. Some nations have more heroes, and some nations have less.

For example, I think that LA Atlantis only has one hero.

[thejeff]

I could be wrong, but I believe all nations have slots for 3 heroes and a (possibly 2?) multiheroes.

In vanilla, not all nations have those slots filled.

Try the Worthy Heroes mod. Even without the rest of CBM, it adds some pleasant surprises.

[Foodstamp]

It is possible to mod in 6 heroes and 2 multiheroes. I believe this is the vanilla limit as well because it was upped from 5 to 6 when some changes were made to one of the Oriental based nations changing their hero count from 5 to 6.

[Deathjester]

It depends on the nation. Some nations have more heroes, and some nations have less.

For example, I think that LA Atlantis only has one hero.

They have at least two. Apart from the Arssartut riding the Tupilak, there's the "once and future queen", L'ghux, a monstrous Basalt Queen with H4. Perhaps she was added in the patch where LA Atlantis got their underwater additions? (turning them into a capable nation imo)

[Adept]

I hope somebody has a definitive ansver. Some of my groups player belive that Early R'lyeh only has one hero, and so does early Helheim and Late age Jotunheim.

[thejeff]

Some nations definitely have less heroes than others. I'm not sure about those 3 specifically. I would not be at all surprised to find they only had 1.

[Amonchakad]

On a side note, the CBM includes the Worthy Heroes mod, which adds/enhances the heroes of almost all nations.

The topic of a "hero database" arose a few days ago in another thread, but I don't recall any definitive answer. Is there a way to see them all without having to run a massive all-ages game for something like 300 turns?:D

[Foodstamp]

I hope somebody has a definitive ansver. Some of my groups player belive that Early R'lyeh only has one hero, and so does early Helheim and Late age Jotunheim.

Your friends are right, some nations do have fewer than 3. There is your answer!

You listed two that do for sure.

[rdonj]

In vanilla, maybe. However if you look through the cbm mod, La jotunheim and ea r'lyeh definitely have more than one hero. I couldn't find any for helheim though.

[Sombre]

He already had a definitive answer, guess he just needs to hear it from more people :]

Yes, some nations have less than 3 heroes. Several in fact.

[Adept]

Ah, but what I meant is.

"Sure, look here. It lists the heroes by nation. Oh, and incidentally you can see there that EA R'lyeh only has the one hero". :P

[Amonchakad]

Ah, but what I meant is.

"Sure, look here. It lists the heroes by nation. Oh, and incidentally you can see there that EA R'lyeh only has the one hero". :P

That was my question aswell:)

[Foodstamp]

Edi's mod database lists some of the heroes for various nations (Not all of them). It can be found here:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42819

Also, the wiki may have some information:
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Main_Page

[Gandalf Parker]

Edi's mod database lists some of the heroes for various nations (Not all of them). It can be found here:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42819

Also, the wiki may have some information:
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Main_Page
That should probably be "the wiki may have some information and if it doesnt then... hint hint nudge nudge"

[thejeff]

Is there a definitive way to get the information?
I know Edi's DB is incomplete as far as heroes go. I could add some based on personal experience, but it's hard to say "X nation has only 1 hero" based on incomplete data. It can be proved wrong, of course.

Is this something that can be pulled out from the code?

[Lingchih]

EA R'lyeh gets all three of it's heroes. All the R'lyeh's get the same 3 heroes.

[vfb]

There are 4 R'lyeh heroes, and I don't think Cthugul ever shows up in EA:

Cthugul
Visitor
Traitor King
Auluudh

[rdonj]

I think when I was looking through the CBM mod I also found something called an elder polypal mother? Something like that.

[Adept]

I'm looking at vanilla, we don't use the mod.

Thanks for the replies. I suppose I need to try clicking through 200 turns with luck +3 a few times. Argh.

[Squirrelloid]

Use the mod already. Seriously.

But vanilla has a veritable pile of nations with fewer than 3 heroes. CBM's Worthy Heroes component adds quite a few heroes, and makes this number less. I would say the average nation in vanilla has fewer than 3 heroes.

[Edi]

The monkey nations have the fewest heroes. Some heroes are shared across nations and I'm not sure if they can appear for all shared nations simultaneously (e.g. Devasura the Fallen is for both Lanka and Kailasa).

The maximum number of heroes was raised to 6 with the introduction of Hinnom to fit everything.

[Tolkien]

Wait, it's been raised to 6, not 3?

...

YES!

[Sombre]

It was never 3.

I thought EA Oceania actually had 0 heroes (in vanilla).

[Adept]

What lovely confusion. Time to bug Kristoffer with this methinks.

[Sombre]

What confusion? You've had a straight answer. Just because people don't have an excel spreadsheet of all the heroes mapped to nations readily to hand doesn't mean they don't know.

[thejeff]

I don't know.

And I'll bet no one knows, unless they have some kind of document with all the heroes mapped to nations.
I'd love to see such a document. I'd try to make one, but I don't know how other than brute force running long test games to see who shows up. Even that would never be conclusive.

[Foodstamp]

You mean a document like this?


Edi's mod database lists some of the heroes for various nations (Not all of them). It can be found here:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42819

FFS people.

[Sombre]

You mean a document like this?


Edi's mod database lists some of the heroes for various nations (Not all of them). It can be found here:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42819

FFS people.

The hero mapping in edi's database is incomplete FFS. That isn't what people are asking for. They want a complete document. I don't know why they do, personally, but they do.

[thejeff]

No, not really.

It's great for a lot of things, but it's hardly comprehensive on heroes.

If I was going to try to create one, I'd start with those heroes, but I wouldn't know where to go after that, other than just running lots of test turns, which is neither efficient or conclusive.

[Gandalf Parker]

Ive gotten the impression here that they want 2 complete and accurate lists.
WorthyHeroes Mod, and Vanilla.

[thejeff]

Well, given a Vanilla list, the Worthy Heroes one would be easy to come up with. Just add/remove based on the mod changes.
You could probably work that backwards too.

[Edi]

The list of heroes in the DB is most definitely not complete in the nations section, but if you look up the various heroes in the AllUnits tab, it more often than not lists the nations that have them. However, that's not complete either.

I think Xietor had done a fairly thorough listing of which nation got what when he was working on his Throne of Heroes mod.

I can try to complete the DB heroes listing, but if someone else already has a full list, I'd prefer that option, since there's not a whole lot of else that needs doing on the DB.

[Adept]

You mean a document like this?


Edi's mod database lists some of the heroes for various nations (Not all of them). It can be found here:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42819

FFS people.

Grow up foodstamp. You are having a tantrum while even the stuff you quote shows it's not the ansver I'm looking for. Go away if you're going to just troll.

[Adept]

The reason I asked in the first place is that the worthiness of the luck scale is somewhat dependant on the heroes a nation has. I'd been under the impression that nations had ~3 heroes with the exceptions being things like multiheroes. This is from the days of the original Dominions already.

I realised there was a lot of disagreement on this, and I're really like to know the truth. What doesn't help is speculation and subjective experience. Either you know of you don't. I don't.

[Sombre]

We do know. Not every nation has 3 heroes. Several have less. This isn't speculation. EA Oceania has 0 heroes. FACT.

The issue is only that you refuse to believe this without an exact list of every hero and the way they map onto nations. That isn't something people have to hand, but it doesn't mean they don't know the answer to the 'do all nations have 3 heroes?' question.

[vfb]

The reason I asked in the first place is that the worthiness of the luck scale is somewhat dependant on the heroes a nation has. I'd been under the impression that nations had ~3 heroes with the exceptions being things like multiheroes. This is from the days of the original Dominions already.

I realised there was a lot of disagreement on this, and I're really like to know the truth. What doesn't help is speculation and subjective experience. Either you know of you don't. I don't.

The RNG in Dominions knows whether you are in an MP game and actually need the heroes. If this is the case, and you take luck-3 with the intention of getting the heroes, you won't get them. This is a fact.

But in the other game, where you took misfortune-2, you will get an awesome hero with 9 magic paths, that you don't really need because all your national mages get those paths anyway.

[Squirrelloid]

Isn't there a mod that gives your nation all the heroes (including WH mod)? Wouldn't that make creating a list rather easy? Or am I confused?

Edit: Correction, it may not have WH heroes. I'd have to go look.

[thejeff]

There's an AllUnits mod (map?), but I don't think that it distinguishes between heroes and other units.

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, i loaded it up. Assuming there's a 1:1 mapping of commanders to unique heroes (not actually true, if a hero has an alternate form, it has 2 versions present), there are 149 heroes in the game as loaded with the Black Heroes map. There are 68 nations.

149/68 = ~2.19 heroes/nation

Note this is an overestimate, because i know i overcounted heroes by occasional double-counting. This also counted multi-heroes (but only once unless there is a multi-hero with an alternate form).

Having looked at the heroes, i think it does include WH.

Now, I can't give you a list of which heroes belong to which nation without going through the whole list and trying to figure out which nation they belong to. Some heroes are more obvious than others, and in some cases its hard to figure out if a hero belongs to a particular era, and some are just strange (There's a sauromancer hero for a non-C'tis nation, for example and iirc).

Mod/Map is BlackHeroView.map

[thejeff]

Cool, I'll take a look at that this weekend.

Thanks.

[Foodstamp]

The reason I asked in the first place is that the worthiness of the luck scale is somewhat dependant on the heroes a nation has. I'd been under the impression that nations had ~3 heroes with the exceptions being things like multiheroes. This is from the days of the original Dominions already.

I realised there was a lot of disagreement on this, and I're really like to know the truth. What doesn't help is speculation and subjective experience. Either you know of you don't. I don't.


It wasn't a tantrum. That is the document, finish it up instead of creating a new one.

For clarity. I mean let's keep it consolidated in Edi's database.

[thejeff]

Agreed, that's the best place for it. That doesn't help answer the question of how to get comprehensive info, though. It would be great if it could be pulled out of the code somehow, but I don't know how to approach that.

[Sombre]

Running a lot of tests will give you good enough results. 3 luck is a 6% chance per turn after all. 100 turns will do the job. Alternatively lch can get the info from the code, if you'd like to email him about it.

I don't really see the point personally. You can work out 99% of it by using the info in the DB and looking through the units.