Blood Red FIGHT ON!)

[Baalz]

This is a mod friendly game, for any relatively balanced mod. Dwarves, rats, amazons or go with a classic and smack these upstarts around.

Era: Middle
Map: TBD once we see how many players we've got
Renaming on, everything else default
No holds barred, exploit whatever you can find
Mods: CBM 1.6
Diplomacy: Machieviellian - extra points for stylish doublecrossings.

The last game I admined was a nightmare from people going MIA. Everyone joining this game needs to have read and signed the Baalz good player pledge (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43620).

Players:
Baalz - Nehekhara
Alpine Joe - Alugra
Gregstrom - Themiskyra
ghoul31 - Dwarves
Aethyr - Shinuyama
Tollund - Ogres
Trumanator - Jomon Broken Swords
Ossa - R'lyeh
Jarkko - Eriu
Ferrosal - Skaven

[Alpine Joe]

i'd like to give Alugra a Whirl

Pledge read and signed.

[Gregstrom]

How could I resist? Put me in for Themiskyra, please.

As the amazons still need more balancing, I'd love it if people took the time to look at the mod and make suggestions.

I'm considering these changes to the current state of play: Caryatids (animated statues) have no PR, where common sense (and comparable units) suggests PR 100. Same for Bronze Maidens.

Warrior alchemists did have a forge bonus of 25%, which was borderline thematic but possibly OP and so was removed. An alchemy bonus would seem appropriate, though.

From their description, I think it's appropriate to give Storm Children #stormflyer.

[ghoul31]

Dwarves

[Aethyr]

Shinuyama please

[Baalz]

It seems like Themiskyra's PD could be toned down quite a bit. A mage at PD 1 who can spam dessication/frozen heart/vine arrow makes thuggery a risky proposition without pretty good equipment. At 20+ the PD has 2 different kinds of top notch sacreds along with a priest to bless them, high precision archers (including poison bows!), 2 different mages (counting the mage/priest) and heavy infantry with good defense & shields. I'd also suggest making all their sacreds cap only to bring them more in line with other nations - sacred cavalry is almost universally cap only, and having to decide which of those really awesome sacreds to go with adds an interesting bit of choice while going a long way towards tempering the fact that there are 6 (!) different really good sacreds with flying, etherealness, fear, stealth, poison bows, glamour, really high defense and some with also high protection. Being able to pump most of them out of every castle is a bit over the top. I'd also maybe tone down the protection on the infantry, not only for balance but thematically its a bit off putting that the amazon chicks are sporting armor comparable to Abysia - except with much better encumbrance and much lower resource cost.

[Zeldor]

Shadow Vestals and Valkyries make totally no sense there really. I have commented on that mod earlier, it needs lots of tweaking, so it's thematic and makes sense. Idea is cool though.

I want to play Nehekhara once, but I cannot join any more games right now.

[rdonj]

Just curious, are you accepting mods from other eras as well? It would be interesting to see someone play jomon broken swords in a game, I'm pretty sure they've not been in an mp game before. And alugra (already asked for) is an ea mod.

[Baalz]

Yeah, so long as they're not blatantly unballanced any mod nation is fine.

[Tollund]

Are the Ogre Kingdoms considered relatively balanced? If so, I'd like to play as them.

[Ossa]

I'd like to join with warhammer chaos from the 5 nations mod - thats not that unbalanced IMO;)

[LoloMo]

I'd like to join as an old mod nation I played before, Sanguinia by Zepath

[LoloMo]

I would like to suggest a no trading of gems, items, and slaves rule if people are amenable to it. Cuts down on the advantages of IRC people (I'm on IRC) :)

[Squirrelloid]

Ossa: no, you don't want to play Chaos. It is too awful to actually play. Trust me.

[Burnsaber]

I'd like to join with warhammer chaos from the 5 nations mod - thats not that unbalanced IMO;)

I really won't recommend it. The nation is a bit off a mess at the moment and needs quite a lot of work. We had a lot of Drama in "Sign of the Hammer" because of it.

Also, Baalz, I hope that you have someone ready to use the llamascript. Whenever 3+ mod nations are involved, clashes are inevitable.

[Gregstrom]

Zeldor: That change is already in my dev version - I should probably have made it explicit. The nation doesn't really need Valks or Vestals as recruitables anyway, since its native sacreds are enough.

Making the sacreds all cap-only... well, I'll happily try it out. What I'd like to see are terrain-dependent recruitables, so that the nation's choice of sacred units depended on the terrain you built castles in.


Their armour makes a lot of sense thematically, but 0 resources is a bit too good. I could add a resource cost, or just make the armour more sensible. Ring cuirass on Jade, chain cuirass on Garnet, plate cuirass on Onyx?

There's a 7 point resource penalty on Crystal Amazons for some reason (probably related to the original mod giving them poison bows). Taking that off would be good.

PD: I've had a closer look, and ZOMG! It's PD that motivates you to put over 20 points per province. Yeah, it's far too good. My instinct would be to swap out the sacreds for the other two amazon types, make the first commander a Crystal Priestess and the second one a Sorceress of some sort.

[Baalz]

For balance purposes I'd say Sauromatia is a decent yard stick - they've got a lot of the same flavors and are a powerful nation. All of Sauro's troops have scale mail, plate seems pretty unthematic to me - but that's just my opinion. If it is used, it makes sense to put the heavier armor at map move 1. Dragon scale is fine thematically, but it should have a very high resource cost and only be on one or two elite unit types - both for balance and just from common sense. Pegasus riders seem more like a 80-100 gold recruit to me : sacred, flying cavalry with a high defense and a poison bow. I'd also raise Jade Maiden's price a little bit, they're quite cheep compared to other sacred cavalry. I might peg them even a little more costly than the Sauro Oirorpata if they're not cap only and have poison resistance, if they were...maybe 60 gold (along with more expensive pegasi) then there probably wouldn't be a balance issue with having the sacreds recruit everywhere - though I can't think of any other nation with recruit anywhere sacred cavalry.

Oh man, I just noticed the amazon archers have a poison bow. That needs to be switched for a normal bow. Sauro's poison archers are very, very strong even being cap only. Those things are in the PD? Gah, that is insanely over the top....

[Ossa]

Well well... then I would like to join as Ryleth. Is that ok;) ?

[pyg]

Also, Baalz, I hope that you have someone ready to use the llamascript. Whenever 3+ mod nations are involved, clashes are inevitable.

I'd be interested in rolling the mods with my own DMG script if folks want. I think it's a bit more robust than the other script and can detect when too many slots get filled, etc. I'd like 48 hours to work out any kinks. PM me if interested Baalz.

[Gregstrom]

Oh man, I just noticed the amazon archers have a poison bow. That needs to be switched for a normal bow. Sauro's poison archers are very, very strong even being cap only. Those things are in the PD? Gah, that is insanely over the top....

Ah... You're looking at the original mod. Here's a more current version - dm file only.

[Gregstrom]

For balance purposes I'd say Sauromatia is a decent yard stick - they've got a lot of the same flavors and are a powerful nation. All of Sauro's troops have scale mail, plate seems pretty unthematic to me - but that's just my opinion. If it is used, it makes sense to put the heavier armor at map move 1.


Onyx amazons are down in their descriptions as making heavier armour than other amazons. If you're talking thematic, wearing a cuirass is more of a greek thing than middle eastern - but they're a greek myth so I think it could be gotten away with.
I was working on the principle that MA armour tends to improve a little over EA armour, and the step to a plate cuirass (NOT hauberk - the cuirass is what units like Ermor's Centurions wear and is generally mapmove 2) didn't look like a big one.


Dragon scale is fine thematically, but it should have a very high resource cost and only be on one or two elite unit types - both for balance and just from common sense.


Sounds reasonable enough to me. What resource cost are we talking - 20?

Pegasus riders seem more like a 80-100 gold recruit to me : sacred, flying cavalry with a high defense and a poison bow.

Well, the indy ones are 50. How much extra is a poison bow worth, given you can't mass them in the numbers Sauro can?

I'd also raise Jade Maiden's price a little bit, they're quite cheep compared to other sacred cavalry. I might peg them even a little more costly than the Sauro Oirorpata if they're not cap only and have poison resistance, if they were...maybe 60 gold (along with more expensive pegasi) then there probably wouldn't be a balance issue with having the sacreds recruit everywhere - though I can't think of any other nation with recruit anywhere sacred cavalry.


Jade Maidens are pretty much the nation's shock troops as things stand currently. They're very affordable, and have an attack that's better than str 9 + spear. Bumping their cost and cutting back on infantry armour will be interesting, and could well be beneficial by promoting the use of a greater range of units.

[Baalz]

Hmmm, I was comparing the pegasus riders to EA Arco's wind riders and the Gryphon Riders but I suppose they're actually decently weaker. Poison arrows aren't that big a consideration on units too expensive to really mass. 50 is probably a decent price for them.

On the dragon scale, I don't know...as it is it's superior to the dragon scale mail which takes constr-6 research and 10 gems (minus the elemental resistance). Its clearly superior to every other non-forged armor in the game - it may need to be dialed back a bit even with a resource bump.

[Baalz]

Alright, I'll give it another 24 hours for sign ups, then we can see how many we've got so we can discuss maps and do whatever work we need to get the selected nations working together.

[Digress]

I would like to give Agra Dis a run.

[pyg]

Here is a test mod for this game. It may have some problems, and will certainly be replaced by a final version. It includes nations up to Arga Dis and has all the mods for the game (including CBM 1.6). You absolutely must disable ALL other mods!

[Gregstrom]

On the dragon scale, I don't know...as it is it's superior to the dragon scale mail which takes constr-6 research and 10 gems (minus the elemental resistance). Its clearly superior to every other non-forged armor in the game - it may need to be dialed back a bit even with a resource bump.

It's amazing armour to have for free on a mage, but on cavalry it's just 15 prot, -1 def. That's pretty special, but less special than Ulm's Black Plate and only a little better than a plate cuirass (14 prot, -1 def).

It can't be dialled back as is, because it's using the stats for the forged dragon scale mail. However, creating a new armour type isn't very challenging - what were you thinking the stats should be?

Peryton riders may still be a concern, as they benefit more from good armour with low enc.

[Trumanator]

Here is a test mod for this game. It may have some problems, and will certainly be replaced by a final version. It includes nations up to Arga Dis and has all the mods for the game (including CBM 1.6). You absolutely must disable ALL other mods!

Well possible bug number one: the "Mastermind" pretender for Alugra has the "slayer runeaxe" effect on her "tricks of the street" attack. Seemed a little odd.

[Jarkko]

If you accept non-mod nations, then I could join with Eriu to test this cunning plan I have come up with :)

[Ferrosol]

I will take the Skaven.

[pyg]

Here is a test mod for this game. It may have some problems, and will certainly be replaced by a final version. It includes nations up to Arga Dis and has all the mods for the game (including CBM 1.6). You absolutely must disable ALL other mods!

Well possible bug number one: the "Mastermind" pretender for Alugra has the "slayer runeaxe" effect on her "tricks of the street" attack. Seemed a little odd.

Good catch. DMG doesn't renumber secondaryeffect yet, so it's crossing with another mod. This will be fixed in next version of this mod.

[pyg]

Test mod #2, includes Skaven and Eriu.

[LoloMo]

You didn't put in Sanguinia :(

Oh wait, Sanguinia isn't in the roster!

[Baalz]

Alright, I'll call it closed at 10 nations. Anybody want to nominate a map? Thanks for putting it all together Pyg!

[Trumanator]

Urraparand, Sharivar, Parganos, and Rim of Darkness come to mind as possible candidates. RoD might need some balancing though, and I haven't actually played Urraparand in an MP game.

[Aethyr]

I've played Urraparand in MP a few times, and I like the map a great deal. However, you absolutely HAVE to have fixed starts...or its bound to be a short game for someone. :)

[Sombre]

I will watch this game with interest.

[Gregstrom]

On the dragon scale, I don't know...as it is it's superior to the dragon scale mail which takes constr-6 research and 10 gems (minus the elemental resistance). Its clearly superior to every other non-forged armor in the game - it may need to be dialed back a bit even with a resource bump.

Aha! I spotted what's happened here. CBM 1.6 bumps forged dragon scale armour up to 17 prot, making it rather nifty. That's not great for Themiskyra's balance, of course.

I'll create an armour type called 'Dragonscale Hauberk', and give that the expected values of 15/-1/1 and an appropriate resource cost. I could even give Amazon infantry something like 'Dragonscale Cuirass' with 13/-1/1... but that's a different issue.

[Baalz]

I've played Urraparand in MP a few times, and I like the map a great deal. However, you absolutely HAVE to have fixed starts...or its bound to be a short game for someone. :)

I've no objections if you want to put in the changes.

[Baalz]

Hmmm, watching them in action I've got some stronger concerns about Themiskyra being balanced against other nations. Masses of strong sacreds are very tough, and combine their great defense with good protection, good offense and their sacreds are not only recruit anywhere, but also pretty affordable. Compare to some of the other really good recruit anywhere sacreds. There are really only a few and they're well known for being powerhouses.

Mictlan Jaguar warriors. Low defense & protection means there are lots of decent counters.

Lanka Kalu-mukha. 60% more expensive than jade maidens. Only 1 attack. Lower protection. Vastly lower defense.

Hmmm, I can't think of any other top notch recruit anywhere sacreds off the top of my head. You can't really compare cap only or indie recruits because of how powerful critical mass is - 20+ high defense sacreds are all but invincible in melee as they've got friends to their left and right. When you can have several (all of your) armies like that its a bit out of line with other nations. When you add on the strategic flexibility of having a bunch of very different top notch sacreds available so you can fly, sneak, overwhelm with fear or go with the cheap guys (you can get 2 jade maidens and some change for the price of a Van)... it just seems quite a bit too much.

What do other people playing think? I'm willing to allow it if I'm the only one who thinks this.

[Alpine Joe]

Looking at Themiskra, I agree that their sacreds seem a little ridiculous. However the other mod nations in this game all have some pretty effective strategies as well. i say leave them as is, but everyone be aware of how strong they can be.

[Aethyr]

Baalz, I concur with your statements; I think it is the recruit anywhere sacreds that put the nation over the top. So, some additional balancing should probally occur. The question is: how much time to you allow for this before starting the game? I'm not opposed to going forward w/o further changes, but this will inevitably lead to certain decsions in game that might not otherwise occur if the nation were more balanced.

[Jarkko]

Took a look at Themiskyra, and I have to agree they look way too good. They need serious toning down to be in the same ball-park with the other nations :)

[Gregstrom]

I'm inclined to down-power them myself. I just won a fight in Dramatica I probably shouldn't have (although I did get pretty damn lucky even so).

Vanilla Jade Maidens (and all the other amazon sacreds) are pretty lightly armoured, which may be why they aren't often used in preference to nationals. In Dramatica, there's the added problem that they have more prot than they were intended to, which doesn't help things at all.

Other than sacreds, Themiskyra isn't really great at melee (str 9 and spears - even with decent armour and defence, the basic units just don't seem to get anywhere against armoured troops) and so there might be an argument for having a sacred available anywhere. For this game though, I'd rather see how it went with cap-only sacreds.

The attached mod is a significant update:

- sacreds have a higher resource cost and Jade Maiden prices have been bumped to 60.
- armour is toned down a lot.
- sacreds are cap only.

This should change things noticeably, I hope.

[Burnsaber]

Looking at Themiskra, I agree that their sacreds seem a little ridiculous. However the other mod nations in this game all have some pretty effective strategies as well. i say leave them as is, but everyone be aware of how strong they can be.

Since I'm the author of two of these mod nations that have "effective stragedies", I've decided to level the playground and help the players in this game by telling something about them.

You see, both of my nations (Dwarfs and Alugra) are pretty oddball and play out a lot different than most dom3 nations. If you try to use "conventional" tricks against them, you might be suprised.

Dwarfs

This is the nations second MP game, so there might be some balance issues. However, my feedback in the thread has mostly been about improving them somehow, so I'm quite confident that they are fine (if they are not, gangbang always works) . Dwarf military is likely best in the game, but cost a lot of gold and resources. All of their castles also cost 1200gold and take 4 turns to build. It is in essence, a slow nation to get rolling and is likely to play defensively, especially considering their good PD.

They have mages with forgebonus (gee, what a shocker), but only medicore diversity and only really strong magic in earth. Also, their most powerful mages have casting encumberance of 13!, limiting the magic support they can give to their troops. This is not a nation that throws fireballs around in the battlefield. You should note though that they have very heavy artilley unit at enchantment 7, "Anvil of Doom" that can do all sorts of crazy stuff. Be prepared to counter it if you think that the dwarfs have access to it!

If you face dwarfs, you should use shielded chaff troops to negate the effectiveness of their excellent crossbow archers (and ranger throwing axes!) and kill the melee forces with appropiate selection of magic. Anything that does AN/AP damage will do fine (poison, combustion, star fire/stellar cascades, numbness, gifts from heaven, fireball, lightning spells), try to avoid mr-negates effects due to their high mr and drain dominion. Be careful when using thugs or big sized troops against them, since they excellent counter to those in the form of slayers (who are weak to archery, try fire largest to target them since they have some extra hp when compared to other infantry).

In conclusion: To fight against dwarfs you need to switch gears to deal with a low number of extremely elite troops, instead of the chaff with mage support most nations wield.

Alugra

Alugra is another oddball. At the moment, it has gone through 3 MP games, facing slight nerfs after each one. IMO it is balanced at the moment. It has sucky national mages, but it has 7 different types of cap-only "gifted" troops who come with magic picks. The nation also comes with a national GoR spell that costs 7 astral gems.

Their regular non-cap forces are pretty meh, but the afromentioned gifted troops are superb and fill many roles, allowing Alugra to wield a wild smorgasbord of battlefield tactics. GoR'red gifted are also good thug chassises and this fact is only improved by their good selection of national self buffing spells.

If you face Alugra, you should be prepared to deal with gifted thugs and troops. Note that gifted are magical beings ("Control", "Moonblade" and "Opposition" ring any bells?). Also, being human(oid?), they have low hitpoints considering their big gold costs so AP/AN stuff works well. Scouting is also very important when fighting Alugra, learning their troop composition allows you to abuse the weak points of many gifted troops (poison with watchmen, lightining for Smiths, mr-stuff vs workers).

One of the oddest stragedies that Alugra can wiled is something called "Thug Communion". Alugra's single non-cap mage, "Manifest", is a guarantied S1 and has pretty good stats and equipment. Sometimes they are communioned en masse with leaders casting self-buffs and finishing the deal with "Use the Leylines". It is a national spell that clears 100 fatigue and blinks the caster. If casted by a leader, it affects all slaves too.

It's nasty.

You have been warned :D

[Baalz]

Alright, I've no objection to Themiskira in this state. I'm going to be out for the next couple days, I'll try to get everything settled and get the game up for Sunday so everyone finalize your pretenders. Last call for map discussion, unless anything else is added I'll pick one of the ones Truman suggested. Pyg, if you could rebundle the mod package with the changes Gregstrom put in?

[pyg]

Final version? Probably not as only a few people have tested it. Here is version 3.

[Sombre]

That little pyg makes me squeal every time.

So cute!

[Tollund]

Ogre maneaters and pitfighters are missing their weapons in the current version.

[pyg]

OK. Test #4. The process turned up an ' sprnbr too high for this file' that went away by changing the order of the mods. Weird. I'm going to chalk it up to the Ogres being ornery.

[Sombre]

'sprnbr too high' can also turn up halfway through a game, btw. It used to be a major pain in the *** when trying to use mod nations. The limits have been increased, but are still there. One of the reasons I've never tried to start another big all mod nations game.

[Trumanator]

Well Tourmaline had 8 mod nations, and we didn't have any problems. By my count we have 7 here.

[Tollund]

Are you using the most recent (0.8) version of the Ogre Kingdoms mod? Because the most recent version gives slaughtermasters a 100% FE random and has pitfighters, maneaters and bulls with different gold and resource costs.

[pyg]

Are you using the most recent (0.8) version of the Ogre Kingdoms mod? Because the most recent version gives slaughtermasters a 100% FE random and has pitfighters, maneaters and bulls with different gold and resource costs.

Fixed. I compared the versions I have with Sombre's mod list and on there it says the latest version is 0.7.

'sprnbr too high' can also turn up halfway through a game, btw. It used to be a major pain in the *** when trying to use mod nations. The limits have been increased, but are still there. One of the reasons I've never tried to start another big all mod nations game.

This mod has the following:
Nations: 8
Monsters: 374
Magic Sites: 20
Weapons: 146
Armor: 50
Spells: 123
TGAs: 510

Looks like we have 12 Spell slots left. Does 510 sound like to many sprites? More testing now would be good!

#5

[rdonj]

Well Tourmaline had 8 mod nations, and we didn't have any problems. By my count we have 7 here.

Well, in Tourmaline one of those mod nations had a VERY small number of sprites. I'm surprised I didn't get that issue in Tourmaline though, considering.

[Burnsaber]

510 sounds like a lot. I'd recommend to give the thing some extensive testing before going for the MP game (perhaps play a SP game with the nations to turn 60+ or something).

One way you can decrease the amount of sprites is to get rid of national pretenders that are not in use. Since Pyg is a outsider, each player could just tell him if he is going to use some national pretender or not.

If the limit is tied to how much custom-sprites are shown in combat, you could try to find units whose sprites could be replaced by #copyspr commands. Sure, it won't be as pretty but I'd guess that function comes before aesthetics in this case. (Alugran human infantry comes to mind as being easy to replace with vanilla sprites)

[pyg]

510 sounds like a lot. I'd recommend to give the thing some extensive testing before going for the MP game (perhaps play a SP game with the nations to turn 60+ or something).


In testing I did a year ago, I thought I found the hard limit to be close to 1000, but I'm still very unsure. Anyway, I've been begging for testing because this is a pretty crazy mod and there are still bugs in DMG, not to mention my mistakes.

[Trumanator]

It would be nice to get this game off the ground. How far are we with the mod pyg?

[pyg]

Well, no one has said anything is wrong with the latest version (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=727717&postcount=53), but it looks like only one person has looked at it....

[Tollund]

The only thing I noticed in a quick overview is a Marverni Horn blower as a pretender choice for the Ogres.

[pyg]

The only thing I noticed in a quick overview is a Marverni Horn blower as a pretender choice for the Ogres.

Thanks, but this seems to be quirk from CBM (line 7809) which does something to Champion of the Horn and then #restrictedgod 79 which happens to be the Ogres nation number in this mod. Is this in CBM for a mod nation, because 79 is not a default nation. grep says this is the only #restrictedgod in CBM as well. I can fix this easily for the game by removing this line from the mod or renumbering the nations, but I won't submit another mod just for this change.

[Tollund]

Yah. I'm not worried about it just wanted to let you know what I saw that might be messed up.

[pyg]

If someone (or several) would play this in SP to turn 40+ I'm ready to declare this mod go.

[Sombre]

Thanks, but this seems to be quirk from CBM (line 7809) which does something to Champion of the Horn and then #restrictedgod 79 which happens to be the Ogres nation number in this mod. Is this in CBM for a mod nation, because 79 is not a default nation. grep says this is the only #restrictedgod in CBM as well. I can fix this easily for the game by removing this line from the mod or renumbering the nations, but I won't submit another mod just for this change.

It's just qm moving the hornblower to an unused nation slot. Because he copystatted a pretender to get the summon lionsin battle effect, if it isn't restricted it turns up for everyone.

[Baalz]

Oooh, Nehekara's guys aren't undead...which is a bit critical!

[Trumanator]

lol, that is something which you want to take note of. The troops are undead though.

[Baalz]

No- I mean there is a bug in the mod bundle...none of the troops are undead!

[Trumanator]

Well thats not right :O

[pyg]

Thanks everyone for finding all these bugs. I'm sorry it's taking so long. On the up side, I hope to release a tool in the future capable of putting together arbitrary mods and resolving all compatibility issues. This is a rather complex task and in this mod requires the modification of 1452 lines (5% of the mod). Anyway, here is another version that I swear is perfect ;).

[Trumanator]

Just out of curiosity, how is this better than Llama's script?

[pyg]

Just out of curiosity, how is this better than Llama's script?

Well DMG isn't solely a script for combining mods. That's just one of the things it can do. Functionally, I don't know that it is a lot better at this point. I cribbed heavily from his script to see all the things I needed to do. It sounds like he still has some bugs in his script as well. I think my regular expression kung-fu is better (~80 lines -vs- ~900). I've also added some features like packing all the sprites, rolling arbitrary .dm, etc. I guess to assess their qualities you could try and do this mod with combineMods and compare them. Anyway, I didn't set out to rewrite his script.

[Gregstrom]

I hate to say it, but there are a couple of issues with Themiskyra. Sprites for at least the Peryton rider, Onyx Maiden and national flag are wrong.

[pyg]

If you `grep Bad bloodred.dm` you will find:

Bad File Name: /themiskyra/AmazonEmpireMod.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/Peryton1.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/Peryton2.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/Onyxmaid1.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/Onyxmaid2.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/Fairy1.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/Fairy2.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/lionrider1.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/lionrider2.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/caryatid1.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/caryatid2.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/fountain1.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/fountain2.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/daughter2.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/daughter1.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/Crowoman1.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/Crowoman2.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/storm1.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/storm2.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/waralc2.tgaBad File Name: /themiskyra/waralc1.tgaBad File Name: /Themiskyra/Themiskyra_banner.tga "MA Themiskyra v1.32"


This is because these are case mismatches between the Themiskyra mod and the actual filenames. Running this mod on certain OSes this will still work, but anyone running *nix this will crash out missing the flag. If you are taking over this mod Gregstrom (which I highly encourage) you should fix this. I fixed it the first time (by hand), but missed it when you made balance changes. As this is a problem with a mod, not DMG, I will fix it in the next release. Kudos to Sombre whose mods never have this problem.

[pyg]

Sorry to sound crabby, here is the latest perfect version... really this time it's perfect.

[Gregstrom]

Thanks for the explanation pyg, I thought I'd caught that in an earlier revision but apparently not.

[Sombre]

Pyg is a bit of a legend. Remember to shower him with sexy forum e-thanks.

[Baalz]

Alright, last call for any fixes to the mod. Game goes up tomorrow.

[Aethyr]

Baalz, did we settle on a map?

[Baalz]

I was leaning towards Parganos, but remain open to any strong preferences.

[Baalz]

Game's up. I used Llama's fixed Parganos.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39857&highlight=parganos

[ghoul31]

When I sent in my pretender for Dwarves, I had the wrong mods enabled. So llamaserver said that I sent in a prender for Skaven.

I put the correct mod in and sent in the Dwarves again. So hopefully it won't cause a problem.

[Baalz]

Ferrosal - can you confirm that you uploaded your pretender after ghoul?

[Tollund]

Looks like Skaven might not have used the correct mod when setting things up.

[Baalz]

Well, llamaserver started the game automatically when 8/8 were uploaded, I guess I'll wait and see if we've got any problems with the first turn that necessitate a recreation.

[ghoul31]

i received a turn for both the dwarves and skaven

[Baalz]

Alright, recreated.

http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=BloodRed2

[rdonj]

You actually did not have to recreate the game. You could have unstarted the game and deleted the incorrect pretender. Just for future reference.

[Aethyr]

Looks like Alpine Joe is gonna stale...

[Alpine Joe]

Wait what? I thought we had to restart the game because of a bad pretender. I wasn't playing my turn because I thought it was invalid......Oh well. I will endure the stale.

Edit: I see now that I never got the first turn of Bloodred2, only bloodred one.....Although overnight I did get the 6 hour warning message on Bloodred 2, and then the second turn for bloodred2. Pretty Odd. Oh well, that kind of stuff happens, I suppose

[Trumanator]

I solemnly swear that that really was 1 pd in that province Aethyr. Its not my fault you sent 5 militias and a priest :D

[Aethyr]

No Prob. I figured it couldn't hurt to try, and one has to get rid those unasked for militia somehow. :D

[Aethyr]

Hmmm...there seems to be a bug with the Hero's Blade.

[Trumanator]

What sort of bug?

[Aethyr]

I can't remember what it should be, but Stats are:
Precision: -2
Damage: 10
Number of Attacks: 20
Range: 40
Amunition: 10

[Trumanator]

... I wish pyg would test his mod more thoroughly.

[Aethyr]

I pyg's defense, he did ask for more testers...I was so busy I just could not make the time before the game launched.

[pyg]

Yes Hero's Blade seems to be crossed with the Ogres Scrap Barrage. I'm still figuring out the why and seeing if anymore have problems. Although it is a little complicated the mod can be updated while the game is playing. I will have more details and a fix in ~12 hours. Sorry:(

[pyg]

OK, I've determined what the problem is and I'm certain that it only affects the Hero Blade (the problem is #newitem specific, HB is only new item). The options are now to keep playing and not use the Hero Blade or to do a hot fix. My suggestion is to keep playing without the Hero Blade as the hassle of the fix for players is probably not worth it. If this is not the opinion of players I will happily post a corrected mod and help coordinate the fix.

Again, I apologize for the inconvenience. I checked Llamabeast's combineMods and he does not deal with #newitem at all so this would have been a bug using his script as well. Additionally I'm fixing DMG to accommodate #newitem so this will work better in the future.

[Aethyr]

Regardless of what's decided I think you're awesome pyg. Thanks

[Alpine Joe]

OK, I've determined what the problem is and I'm certain that it only affects the Hero Blade (the problem is #newitem specific, HB is only new item). The options are now to keep playing and not use the Hero Blade or to do a hot fix. My suggestion is to keep playing without the Hero Blade as the hassle of the fix for players is probably not worth it. If this is not the opinion of players I will happily post a corrected mod and help coordinate the fix.

Again, I apologize for the inconvenience. I checked Llamabeast's combineMods and he does not deal with #newitem at all so this would have been a bug using his script as well. Additionally I'm fixing DMG to accommodate #newitem so this will work better in the future.


I vote we keep playing without the Hero Blade. Thanks for the work Pyg!

[Baalz]

Indeed, thanks for your selfless work Pyg! Executive decision as the game admin is that the hero blade is banned from this game and we play on. Hopefully nobody was counting on it too much, but trying to switch stuff around mid game seems like too much of a risk.

[Jarkko]

I agree, lets continue without HB. And thanks Pyg for your work :)

[Gregstrom]

Nehekharan PD is quite buff at high levels, then. Owie.

Oh well, you die and learn I suppose.

[Aethyr]

Is there any other way? :D

[Aethyr]

Baalz,

May I have a 6 hour extension on the current turn? Thanks

[Baalz]

Done

[Aethyr]

Thanks! Turn's in.

[Jarkko]

Eriu has now taken three provinces from Nehekhara, but they still grow and grow. I presume it is obvious now for everybody Nehekhara is about to win this game. If we want this fight to continue, the dead have to be stopped.

Please PM me if you want to join the free peoples. Let's stop Nehekhara now, and continue our petty little disagreements later. We have an elephant in the livingroom, and we can't continue to pretend everything is just going to turn fine in the end.

[Gregstrom]

As a footnote to this: If anyone needs to move through territories that are by rights Themiskran in order to attack Nehekhara, feel free. We'll sort out repatriation later.

[Baalz]

Relax Into My Embrace Children. Your Struggles Only Bring Suffering To The Inevitable. Lay Down Your Mortal Burden And Be At Peace.

[Gregstrom]

Dammit, nearly got him! Ah well, better luck next time I guess.

[Jarkko]

There will probably be a grand battle between Nehekhara and Eriu in the next turns. In my modesty I believe it will be the final deciding moment in the game, seeing how nobody else seem to be able to stand up to Nehekhara. If Eriu wins, I'll live through to fight another day and will thus remain a thorn in the butt of Nehekhara. If Eriu is beaten in the battle, nothing can stop Nehekhara anymore.

I would also appreciate it if the Ogres stopped pressing their dominion into Eriu lands. Like move away your preachers for example... Nothing is more retarded that to have spend the few resources into attempting to keep my heartlands dominion positive. On the other hand, if the Ogres want to see Nehekhara win even faster, then by all means continue your mole work.

Everybody, please wake up already and smell the coffee. If we don't unite against Nehekhara *now*, then it is too late.

[Trumanator]

Another dmg issue, though it probably won't matter. Something in my cap battle with the dwarfs has the Gorger battle summon of the ogre hero. It does not appear to be the O-Toyo as I first thought, so I really have no idea. In any event, it probably won't matter if it isn't an indy recruit, since I'm unlikely to survive much longer with the amount of stuff the dwarfs are throwing at me. Runegards + magma eruption = devastation. Though if Nehekara wins it won't matter anyways.

[pyg]

OK, so I don't really know that much about modding but it looks to me like anytime anyone casts Corpse Candle (which is what Trumanator did) you will get a Gorger. The only thing DMG did is renumber the Gorger unit to 2546. Hopefully Sombre will look at this post and shed some light, although it looks to me like the Ogres mod is changing Corpse Candle for everyone. In fact it looks to me like a number of spells (Faery Trod, Seven Year Fever) are changed, so I might not really be understanding what is going on.

Here is the relevant bit starting around line 27555:

---- 472 = gorger battlefield edges summon + berserk self - for Skrag^M
^M
#newspell^M
#copyspell "Corpse Candle"^M
#end^M
^M
#selectspell 472 -- corpse candle^M
#nreff 5^M
#damage 2546 dmged ^M
#researchlevel -1^M
#nextspell 641^M
#end^M

[rdonj]

It is in fact the ogre kingdom mod's fault. That's a bug that's been around for a while but I don't think sombre was planning on fixing it.

[Jarkko]

I have news for all the freedom loving peoples: The main army of Eriu is still standing against the evil of Nehekhara!

However, Nehekhara has now decided to rid this marvelous force of freedom from the face of earth. I kid you not, Nehekhara has brought to the Eriu front a *massive* army, backed up by very heavy magic users.

The intelligence we have suggests that Nehekhara is now very weak everywhere else. Apparently the freedom force of Eriu was too much for Nehekhara to stomach, and Nehekhara is throwing everything and their dogs against Eriu now, and to hell with everything else.

It looks like Eriu will not be able to stop this humongous army of evil :(

However, it means this is the moment Nehekhara is at its weakest everywhere else. Hit Nehekhara, hit them with anything you can. If you have hands, throw stones. If you have teeth, gnaw their ankles.

Really, if you can hurt Nehekhara in any way, now is about the best moment you can do that. If you wish there is a tomorrow, you will attack Nehekhara now with all you have.

Forget your petty skirmishes with each other. Hit Nehekhara now. After they are contained, then let us get back to the normal schedule of bickering and skirmishing with each other.

[Gregstrom]

As a footnote: The rest of Nehekhara's ill-gotten gains are littered with the occasional Tomb King, some Anubites and a fair few Bone Scorpions. I'd bring up his Lord of the Gates, but since said Pretender is limping, cursed and repeatedly Horror Marked (the penalty of hiding away out of range of all the other spells I wanted to cast), I doubt you'll see much of it. If that Mother Oak disappears shortly you should thank the Eater of Gods, although I'd advise against doing so personally...

[Baalz]

Little Living Souls. Cease This Pointless Struggling For There Are None To Save You. All Who Can Fight The Inevitable Have Already Taken Up Arms Against The Tomb Kings And Now See How Futile It Is. Relax Into My Embrace Children.

[Jarkko]

As was to be expected, the freedom force of Eriu was beaten. While the losses are horrible indeed, the good news is that the magical power of Nehekhara has recieved a noticeable dent, as 9 of their 14 combat mages present in the were killed during the fracass. It was also most pleasing to recieve the intelligence reports of Nehekhara being beaten back on the other fronts! The other free nations have picked up the torch, the world might not be doomed to eternal darkness!

Still, Eriu is now forced to pull back to reorganise, because it is pretty certain the powerhungry and evil Nehekhara will press on now. Eriu is now fighting for its survival, and our only hope is that the other free nations stop Nehekhara from reinforcing their northern front. The freedom loving nations should continue their operations against Nehekhara, because even the mightiest evil abomination will fall if enough fists keep on hammering.

[Gregstrom]

The remaining forces of Themiskyra are doing their part, and we just had the unexpected pleasure of eviscerating a rather unwise Tomb King. The Nehekharans are, we think, beginning to feel the pinch of fighting a war on multiple fronts - why else would they risk an afflicted immortal in hostile dominion, when they could instead have waited for it to heal?

Join the assault now, and you may be the ones to deal them the fatal injury.

[Jarkko]

New Jomon has zero provinces left and stalled previous turn. New Jomon is also the only one not to have sent in the turn yet.

Trumanator, please set your nation to AI if you don't intend to defend your remaining forts. I think it would be quite understandable under the current situation, and at least way better than stale out turns...

[Trumanator]

Sorry, I will be able to get in this turn though.

[Jarkko]

The freedom force of Eriu kicks some Nehekaran a**. And when I say kick a**, I mean a major butt whooping which Nehekaran tomb-guards will never ever forget (and we all know just how long they live). That is, if they ever hear of it, because a grand total of *one* single undead soldier escaped the slaughter from the just hands of the freedom force of Eriu. All Nehekaran combat mages, their evil scorpion beasts, hordes of evil legions, everything were grinded to dust.

Yes, that is correct. Nehekara is down. They are in the ditch. They are face down in mud. And in the legendary words of Cohen the Barbarian, there is no better time to attack your enemy than when he is face down in mud!

Don't be foolish though. Even though Nehekara just took the biggest butt-whooping in known history, they are *not* defeated. In fact, they will soon become even *more* dangerous, as they (and we all!) have now witnessed they are not quite as immortal as they have been believing. Hit Nehekara *now*, but don't get yourself killed when doing that! Because Nehekara will surely not attempt as foolish attacks from now on.

All free peoples, behold! Hunting season has begun! Who ever hunts most Nehekerans the next three months will win the honorary title of honorary title of "Hunter" and will recieve as a token one whole air gem! If we do not deliver more serious blows to Nehekara in the three next months, they will be back even stronger.

[Gregstrom]

Oh, you hurt them too? I was a little short on infantry, so I ended up letting a dozen Tomb Guards and a commander go free. The rest are now a fine-ground bonemeal fertiliser - my biggest regret is that there weren't any Tomb Kings present.

[Jarkko]

Why is it only Themiskyra and Eriu reporting of the great victories? We two are the smallest non-Jomon nations left! I have seen the Ogres take two provinces from Nehekhara, but after that they stopped their freedom operations. Have all the other free nations done the same too? I kid you not (or so I believe), Eriu and Themiskyra alone will not be able to slow down Nehekhara for very long. Others need to join in! Nehekhara has to be contended *now* if we all want to survive!

Friends of freedom, join the hunt now!

[Trumanator]

Well congrats to Aethyr and ghoul for managing to absolutely destroy me in something like 5 turns. Aethyr, you'll discover that you're the new owner of a rather valuable piece of real estate soon :D Please own the dwarfs with it! :P

[Aethyr]

Thank you Trumanator. I dare say that fearsome wrym of New Jomon gave me some anxious moments. Had it not been for the dwarves strong push I have no doubt that you would still be a force to be reckoned with.

GG

[Aethyr]

Why is it only Themiskyra and Eriu reporting of the great victories?
Ever secret are the ways of the Bakemono. Not even the shadows mark their passing. :)

[Gregstrom]

Baa'Lah, the Eternally Dying, has been killed in another of his incarnations. This time as a Tomb King with very lucky randoms and a bunch of good kit.

Nehekhara, I will accept your surrender at this point.

[Baalz]

Sure, we'll be right into your cap to sign the appropriate papers.

[Gregstrom]

Looks like you'll have to hurry - the Ogres seem awfully eager to surrender to me in your place...

How many Tomb Kings are you willing to have killed in an attempt to defeat my last rag-tag band of adventurers, anyway? You got my prophet that time, but I'd hardly call it a fair exchange.

[Gregstrom]

40 lizards? Now I know you aren't even trying. :( On the plus side, I guess I might last long enough to get my prophet back at this rate.

[Baalz]

Try fighting on 5 fronts. Sorry, I'd love to put you out of your misery but you're kinda at the bottom of my priority list..

[Gregstrom]

Ooh, does that make me a fifth column? Kewl.

[Gregstrom]

Aargh - you got me! I think the other 200 troops you're moving up must have been intended for someone else, though.

Best of luck, everybody!

I think Themiskyra was over-nerfed in this game, although given my only war was against a monstrously bloated Nehekhara it's hard to be sure.

[Jarkko]

It's all over for Eriu now. All hail our Nehekaran overlords!

[Gregstrom]

I saw the graphs dip. Looks like a nasty fight happened. Nothing's happened about all those globals, though.

And, somehow, Themiskyra still survives! Hipp's name shall be praised by a tiny, ruthlessly hunted resistance movement for generations to come.

[Baalz]

I'm gonna be out of town for the weekend, and given the nature of this position I didn't really feel comfortable having somebody sub. If we get a turn early enough today I'll try to take it, but I'm going to delay hosting after that until I get back Monday.

[Aethyr]

The might of Nehekhara is just...crushing. :hurt:

[Jarkko]

The might of Nehekhara is just...crushing. :hurt:

I hate buttholes who say "What did I say", but anyway: What did I say?

The time to act was a long time ago. The game is now over, Nehekhara has won.

[Gregstrom]

TBH, I think they'd pretty much won by the time I'd attacked them.

[ghoul31]

Don't worry, I'll save you guys

[Baalz]

I'll keep playing as long as there's anybody who thinks they have a chance, but my opinion is there is no chance at all to stop me so don't feel like you need to keep putting up the good fight for my sake. If its unanimous concession lets call the game.

[Gregstrom]

I'd be interested in an AAR, by the way.

[Jarkko]

Don't worry, I'll save you guys
I seriously doubt that. You have about the same chance as a snowball has in a cooking pot, with boiling water, in the hottest pit of hell.

[rdonj]

So slightly better than average, then? I mean, for snowballs in hell anyway.

[Aethyr]

The might of Nehekhara is just...crushing. :hurt:

I hate buttholes who say "What did I say", but anyway: What did I say?

The time to act was a long time ago. The game is now over, Nehekhara has won.
That may very well be, but the time to act does not create the capacity to act. Sometimes, it just is what it is.

@ Baalz, I do not disagree with you, but let's play a couple more turns and see where we are.

[Baalz]

I'm not in a rush, just didn't want you guys to play past the point you're having fun out of a sense of obligation.

[Aethyr]

No worries..its all about the journey, although it would be nice to see it end in victory a little more often. :)

The battle at 55 will most likely be the climax for me.

[Baalz]

So, we didn't specify victory conditions, but I'm in control of well over half the provinces - probably close to 75% of the unfortressed provinces. Pretty much everybody is just hiding in their castles waiting for me to storm them...sallying forth to slow me a bit but nothing resembling a credible offensive force anywhere. I don't really feel like meticulously storming every single castle left...does anybody have any plans of doing anything other than trying to slow how fast they're dying?

[Jarkko]

If the game goes on for a while still, I'll attack because of boredom :p

[ghoul31]

So, we didn't specify victory conditions, but I'm in control of well over half the provinces - probably close to 75% of the unfortressed provinces. Pretty much everybody is just hiding in their castles waiting for me to storm them...sallying forth to slow me a bit but nothing resembling a credible offensive force anywhere. I don't really feel like meticulously storming every single castle left...does anybody have any plans of doing anything other than trying to slow how fast they're dying?

the only thing you are doing is taking over undefended provinces with sc's. You are aren't winning any real battles. Do you really think you are going to be able to take over the world with lizardmen?

[Baalz]

I've won tons of real battles. Don't mistake the fact that you are the last player I haven't sat on yet with a delusion that I'm not actually winning. Just look at the score graphs and use your head...I've been crushing Shin as they're the only nation with the research to theoretically do anything at all to me and destroying the ogres who had started setting up a significant blood economy. Eriu is locked in a corner without a hell of a lot of options, and to be frank you're just not a long term threat so I've been more or less ignoring you. My gold income is almost 3 times everyone else put together (12524 gold this turn) and the only reason I'm throwing lizard men around is because I'm not terribly motivated to spend 5 hours micro'ing the turns for a nation this size and just drowning everyone in bodies has been effective enough - it just doesn't matter if I lose a 1000 bodies here or there.

Most games that specify them have victory conditions well below what I've already accomplished here...are you honestly taking a position that you have a snowball's chance of doing anything other than being annoying to me?

[Aethyr]

As one of the "sat on" I concede that I can do nothing but prolong the enevitable--and barely at that. :)

We should congratulate Baalz and declare him the winner.

[rdonj]

And then he can write his nehekara guide :)

[Trumanator]

And then he can write his nehekara guide :)

Or add it to mine plx! I don't want mine to be overshadowed by teh ownage baalz guide :(

[Aethyr]

And then he can write his nehekara guide :)

Or add it to mine plx! I don't want mine to be overshadowed by teh ownage baalz guide :(

I think we need a guide on how to fight them. :)

[rdonj]

They are pretty potent, but I think this is the first mp game they've been in where they could potentially win. I don't think, as an outsider, I should probably talk about how to fight them, or I'd start theorycrafting with you. Certain things are pretty obvious go to spells against them, like wither bones... if you could get that early in a game against them, they'd be really hard-pressed to beat you.

[Gregstrom]

Certain things are pretty obvious go to spells against them, like wither bones... if you could get that early in a game against them, they'd be really hard-pressed to beat you.

They weren't. I should probably have attacked sooner, but the accuracy on Wither Bones isn't good enough to quickly and easily take out Tomb Scorpions.

[Aethyr]

I agree, but my impression is that you really need to catch them early; once they get rolling...they're a tough nut to crack.

[Gregstrom]

The way Baalz went, I needed to catch him before I actually had borders with him :D

[Jarkko]

Who ever came up with the idea of having regenerating high-prot soldiers, supported by immortal mages and un-breaking trampling health-mosters should consider perhaps to rethink something ;)

Once those scorpions start rolling, there is no way to stop them fast enough to actually get your hands on those immortal mages guarded by regenerating guardians (the regeneration is enough to make banishment useless against them; excellent way to basically them immune to destruction, because lets say Eriu mages will automatically revert to Banishment when fighting them, but they will never be able to Banish the guardians to death).

Suggestions for Nehekara:

Remove the regeneration from the guardians. Regeneration is just silly and stupid and make them in effect immune to Banish which the AI attempts to use against them.

The price on the Bone Scorpions have to be made *much* higher (like tenfold), because there is absolutely no way to stop them fast (unbreakable, massive HP, excellent resistances, trample), and it sucks to get swamped by them.

Immortal mages are by definition a bad thing. If immortal, they should be priced somewhere between silly and insane, not as basic affordable commanders.



Cheers to Baalz for the victory! You truly did show just how unbalanced Nehekara is in the hands of somebody who knows what to do with them :)

[rdonj]

The price on the Bone Scorpions have to be made *much* higher (like tenfold), because there is absolutely no way to stop them fast (unbreakable, massive HP, excellent resistances, trample), and it sucks to get swamped by them.

Immortal mages are by definition a bad thing. If immortal, they should be priced somewhere between silly and insane, not as basic affordable commanders.



Cheers to Baalz for the victory! You truly did show just how unbalanced Nehekara is in the hands of somebody who knows what to do with them :)

Bone scorpions are already 18d per scorpion... increasing the cost tenfold would make them more expensive than seraphs! That might be a bit much. Sounds like you got hit by a bunch at once, so either baalz has a construction site somewhere or he hit you with a crazily expensive army. Also you forgot to mention they have fear :P

Also the immortal mages are 500 gold and cap only, so it's not like they go for pennies.

[Gregstrom]

My take on their troops:

High MR gives near-immunity to Banish and a host of other low-level spells that can inconvenience normal infantry.
Morale 30 means they're immune to fear and awe, and as a bonus they don't dissolve in an autorout either. Oh, and as an extra bonus mind-affecting spells won't redirect to leaders any more either.
Infantry tower shield gives high defence (so they're very tough in melee) and effective immunity to arrows and most low-level damage spells.
No fatigue, so no chance of lucky crits on anything with good armour (and those big shields).

Scorpions are worse, because they have huge prot rather than just average prot. So the lack of a shield doesn't make them vulnerable to arrows, and the lower defence doesn't make them more vulnerable in melee. For tramplers, they seem rather lacking in vulnerabilities.


Jarkko: I thought the regen was a national spell?

[Jarkko]

Bone scorpions are already 18d per scorpion... increasing the cost tenfold would make them more expensive than seraphs! That might be a bit much. Sounds like you got hit by a bunch at once, so either baalz has a construction site somewhere or he hit you with a crazily expensive army. Also you forgot to mention they have fear :P
We are talking here about summons that are in the league of tartarians. Except they don't need Conjuration 9. If the bone-scorpions required Conjuration 9, there would be no problem, because by then you would perhaps have *something* able to stop them. But no, when the first contact with Nehekara, starting as their neighbour, is to be overrun by two bone-scorpions (I actullay was able to kill those two in the next few battles, but then Baalz dragged in a few more plus the immortal mages...), then you know something is *wrong*. Either the bone-scoprions indeed need a silly price tag such as 180 gems *or* they require a hefty research (Conjuration 8 or Enchantment 8).

Also the immortal mages are 500 gold and cap only, so it's not like they go for pennies.
Immortal mages with the abilities the Nehekaran ones have should not exist. Similar capabilities can be found on 500 gold mages, true, but the others are not immortal. The thing with the immortals are that they sort of don't die. 500 gold *is* peanuts for the immortal mages Nehekara has, it would be pure idiocy to not buy one every single turn.

The immortal mages need to be summons. If in doubt at how much such should cost, take a look at the immortal mages available in the game; the other immortals require about 40 death gems and lots and lots and lots of research.

With an endless horde of immortal mages and bone-scoprions nobody has absolutely anything to stop Nehekara after about turn 3. And it is rather hard to kill out an opponent in two turns :)

[rdonj]

Tomb kings ARE strong... but in their immortal form they have magicboost -1, and can become fairly useless. Here's an example tomb king from an old test game I made when baalz was talking about his intended strategy for this game on IRC: 2f 2a 1e 1s d3. That one got all the randoms it has any decent chance to get... and if it dies it becomes 1f 1a d2. That's the reverse of a basic buried sorcerer. Not all of them are like that, but it is not atypical for many to be similar or even worse.

I don't think it's quite fair to compare bone scorpions to tartarians. They do nothing for your magic diversity/strength, have more vulnerabilities (for one thing they're very vulnerable to smashers, which are only construction level 2) and can't wear items (and only two misc slot items if GoRed). They don't have the versatility, or the logistic flexibility of tartarians either. Not to say that perhaps some changes aren't in order, but I think what you've suggested would be going slightly beyond the bounds of reason :P. Giving them higher research wouldn't necessarily be bad, although I wouldn't really suggest high ench or conj since nehekara really badly wants to go to 8 in both anyway. Construction 7, perhaps....


Also, yes, the regen is a national spell, gives 1hp/turn to most nehekaran units.

Edit: Anyway, I should stop arguing about this in your thread, at least until victory is declared for certain.

[Gregstrom]

F1A1D2 is good enough for heavy thug duty with a couple of gems (Mistform, Soul Vortex, wahey!). The immortality puts them (IMHO) way ahead of the vanilla units costing ~500 gold, because it's so hard to lose the investment and that's the normal drawback to the expensive cap-only units. Even outside dominion, a lucky Soul Slay doesn't kill them if they're in their mortal form.

I wouldn't put Bone Scorpions in the same field as Tarts either, but they seemed to be too readily available in this game. The regen buff is very annoying on them, as high prot plus 9 hp of regen makes them seriously hard to kill and also very hard to afflict, which might otherwise be a viable way of trying to stop them. Higher cost and/or research would make a difference, I guess.

[Jarkko]

for one thing they're very vulnerable to smashers, which are only construction level 2
Unless you have plenty size 5+ thugs available, the crushers will do absolutely *nothing*. Do you know what a bone scorpion does to thugs who are smaller? It tramples them down. Good luck, you just wasted quite the gems and gold on the thug for nothing.

If using mage-priests, the combat AI reverts to casting Banish after their script is over. Banish against Nehekarans has absolutely no effect because of the (excuse me) retarded stats the Nehekarans have :)

[Baalz]

Nehekara is a strong nation, but I don't think they're overpowered compared to other strong nations. I had some good luck, and played a good game while honestly you guys were struggling to leverage the really effective counters available - and remember, I never fought against anybody who wasn't much smaller than I was so most nations would feel overpowering in that scenario. Bone scorpions are not very scary at all if you deploy a counter to them, and counters are easier and cheaper than the bone scorpions. Remember, those guys are expensive, unless I'm already winning losing a couple of them could easily be a drastic blow to what I've invested in my army. I don't think at any point there were more than 2 (maybe 3?) deployed against any player, so it's a bit of a stretch to say that anybody was swamped in them. Here's a couple ideas of what I would do vs bone scorps.

Crushers are size 6, poison and fear immune.
They lack fire immunity, so a couple fire elementals would pass them out very quickly while being ethereal and size 6.
Tangling vines, prison of fire, even slime. You don't need to tie them up terribly long because...

then

Lightning is awesome at any small number of tough guys. (rough luck your guys default to banishment Eriu)

forged bows: just man's cross, piercer, vision's foe, ethereal xbow, thunder bow are all 5 gems and a few of any of them would ruin this shieldless guy's day.

Undead/construct counters: dust to dust will tear them apart and is trivial to field for anyone with D1 mages. A couple herald lances will ruin their day (or solar rays). Holy scourges/flambeauxs or smashers on any light thug will disintegrate them.

Their MR is fairly low on the thug scale, a couple guys with penetration boosters spamming control the dead could have fairly easily snatched them.
Or any of the other nasty MR-resist spells, of course.

There protection/hps aren't *that* great. They would have been torn up pretty fast in melee if I had used them much against the ogres or dwarves.

Keep in mind, the bone scorpions are very similar to Behemoths buffed with iron warriors - only three times as expensive. The regen, admittedly is quite nice, but then again more than 3 times the hps will go a long way as well (if you were using behemoths).

Tomb kings are not functionally immortal. Their second form is drastically weaker, so you most certainly do not use them as a "I don't care if they die" unit which is the strength of immortals. Their second form is also weak enough to make thugging tricky. They also have pretty low hps so are only mediocre thugs even in their first form. Sure, they're effective for raiding PD...but that's a low bar for a 500 gold unit with a bunch of equipment and alt research.

I'll write up an AAR/guide and share my thoughts in more detail.

[Jarkko]

My Eriu actually killed a few Bone Scorpions (don't know how the others managed) with lighnting and Thunder Bow. But as said, the Eriu mages defaulted to Banish when script ended, and that proved to be totally useless (and I had what, 20 priest-mages in the main battle?). Nehekara had at first two Bone Scorpions, they were killed after a few battle, then three more Bone Scorpions arrived together with 12 of the mages (so much about 500 gold a piece being any sort of a problem) and hordes of the other udnead. And that while Nehekara was also overruning three other nations, I hate to think what Eriu would have faced if I had been the sole enemy of Nehekara :p

[Gregstrom]

Nehekhara is strong, yes. Maybe not Ashdod strong, but I reckon they'd stand up well against any of the big EA nations.

I stood up relatively well against your initial armies, but your size (and my costs) meant I couldn't replenish my losses effectively - some of that was due to size difference, of course, but I also think that Nehekharan infantry are more effective than their cost justifies.

Most of the ranged counters you refer to weren't that effective for me, possibly because I didn't employ them in enough numbers. The various bows and D2D castings seemed very unlikely to hit the right square, and the herald lances I used on Tomb Kings didn't deal enough to the Scorpions to kill them before my troops were squished. Cursing them seemed a good plan, as then afflictions could mount up and maybe disable them. And ofc I couldn't use lightning or crushers thanks to my path (and gem, somewhat) access issues.

[Aethyr]

So, we are all in agreement that Baalz has won, yes?

[Gregstrom]

I am, at least.

[Jarkko]

I was of that opinion a long time ago already :)

[ghoul31]

I wasn't ready to quit. Oh well , if Baalz is going to be a dick, there isn't anything I can do

[Trumanator]

I wasn't ready to quit. Oh well , if Baalz is going to be a dick, there isn't anything I can do

Who's being a dick? Literally everyone but you acknowledges that baalz has the game in the bag, but you just can't stand to give up playing with your dolls. Were this following the victory conditions of most games, it would've been over already. Baalz did not force people to declare him the winner, he simply provided arguments and evidence to support their doing so. How this makes him a "dick" is beyond me.

[ghoul31]

I wasn't ready to quit. Oh well , if Baalz is going to be a dick, there isn't anything I can do

Who's being a dick? Literally everyone but you acknowledges that baalz has the game in the bag, but you just can't stand to give up playing with your dolls. Were this following the victory conditions of most games, it would've been over already. Baalz did not force people to declare him the winner, he simply provided arguments and evidence to support their doing so. How this makes him a "dick" is beyond me.

Because I was still having fun. If he wasn't having fun, he should have gotten a sub.

I spend 40 turns preparing an army to fight him, then he refuses to fight me and ends the game.

[Baalz]

Near as I could tell, you spent 40 turns turtling and I won the game by ignoring you. I'm sorry that you feel cheated, but you were having fun because you were one tenth my size with one tenth of my research and one twentieth of the fights I had each turn with a similarly lopsided micro and time requirement. I get the feeling nobody else was having fun because the fights were one sided and there was no hope of things getting better....I had won the game. You still having fun does not obligate me to play a sandbox game with you where nobody is playing for a win but just goofing around to see how expensive you can make storming castles. If you had been credibly attacking me - or had any reasonable expectation of ever doing so things would have been different, but go play single player if you just want to goof around without playing for a win - don't expect me to play a tedious, pointless game nor sucker a sub into doing it.