Steam Sale Dom3 players might like.

[PsiSoldier]

Just thought I'd post this here since I'm sure some Dom3 players would be interested.

Steam has the game Mount and Blade on sale this weekend for 5 Dollars. Its sort of a 1st person Empire Simulator. Or at least the battles are 1st person. There are plenty of Mods for it as well including some that kind of make it a bit more Dom3 like by adding magic although Ive not tried any of those mods, I play with a Sword of Damocles Mod that adds invading Necromancers to the world after a set time.

Anyways considering the Game is normally 30 Dollars now is the time to get it at 5 Bucks. Do a search for Mount and Blade on Youtube to see if you might be interested since a ton of videos will come up some with the regular game and lots showing off mods.

The graphics are not exactly spectacular but its still fun as hell as testament to the fact that Ive logged about 80 hours in the game.

[Baalz]

Yeah, I played a beta of this ages ago and got way more than $5 of fun out of that, its got a very fun mounted combat mechanic....ah, riding down the pitchfork wielding peasants after you failed at stealing their cattle. Good times. Dunno that it's a $30 game, but $5 is a no brainer.

[Foodstamp]

Thanks for the heads up. I beta tested it as well when the game was still in very early development. Since then has undergone a ton of changes, mainly graphic so I have been thinking about picking it up since I had fun even when the graphics were terrible. It's downloading right now, can't wait to see what all they have done!

[Joelz]

Also don't forget that everyone who has the original M&B key gets to the M&B Warband beta too, which just went open.

Linky:
(will be posted some time after the m&b forums are up)

[PsiSoldier]

Also don't forget that everyone who has the original M&B key gets to the M&B Warband beta too, which just went open.

Linky:
(will be posted some time after the m&b forums are up)

Ah yeah I had read about the Warband beta a while back but I dont think it was open at the time. I may have to check it out.

It might be nice if they give a discount for Warband to players that own M&B too.. Dunno that they would do that, but its been done for other games like the new Stalker Call of Pripyat which is half price or so for people that own one of the first two games. So it is possible that Warband might be discounted for owners of the original. Steam doesnt even have any listed price for Warband yet though.

[Trumanator]

Now if only Steam would have a dominions sale. Oh wait....

[Ink]

niche and non-mainstream games, which a medieval-FPS-empire-building-game obviously is not, will never work in a digital distribution model.

the only way to get them to sell is to not do much of anything at all except advertise using slinky models and live in a delusional world in which you pretend that the manual is a form of piracy prevention.

also, I'd bet M&B is on sale because warband is slated for release next month; its a form of get the old out while you still can and get press for your new game at the same time.

but like I said, would never work for a game like dominions, not in a million years.

[vfb]

Oh, flashback! Anyone remember the 'secret decoder disk'? It was a cardboard wheel with holes in it, on top of another disk, and you had to align some runes and find the hidden copy protection code. Maybe in some SSI RPG or something?

[sansanjuan]

Oh, flashback! Anyone remember the 'secret decoder disk'? It was a cardboard wheel with holes in it, on top of another disk, and you had to align some runes and find the hidden copy protection code. Maybe in some SSI RPG or something?

I do remember the disk but can't recall the game either. Might be google-able if you are lucky.
-ssj

[Joelz]

The posts can't be edited after a while? :confused:

Well, here's the link to the beta download post. Just click the link provided in the first post. If it ain't that, I don't know what it is:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,73663.0.html

[Sombre]

Oh, flashback! Anyone remember the 'secret decoder disk'? It was a cardboard wheel with holes in it, on top of another disk, and you had to align some runes and find the hidden copy protection code. Maybe in some SSI RPG or something?

All of the golden era D&D pc games had these - Pool of Radiance and its sequels (I forget their titles) - also the Death Knights of Krynn series using the same engine and the Savage frontiers series, also using the same engine.

Don't remember if they were SSI. Anyway they had a 'fun' bit of copy protection, which was asking you for the code not only every time you started the game up, but also during the game - here's an example.

There's a maze in the game which takes ages to navigate. At the end of the maze there is a door which has some symbols on it. You're supposed to use the decoder wheel to work out what the symbols mean (they are in elvish and dwarvish). If you do use the decoder wheel it spells out 'NOKNOK'. If you put anything other than NOKNOK in then you get a bit of descriptive text that a monster comes out from under the door and kills your entire party, then the game deletes your previous save as well. Now I had the codewheel, but the first time I ran into this, I just put 'dunno' because I had saved the game and I couldn't be arsed to bother with the codewheel (it was kind of a pain and I was about to shut down the pc). So yay, the game ****ed my only save up. Yay copy protection.

[Ink]

yeah all golden era (aka early 90 late 80) games used copy protection schemes similar to that.

it was pretty effective before the internet had to ruin everything.

[Sombre]

They also used to ask stuff like 'what's the third word on the second line of the twenty fifth page of the manual?'

But honestly I don't think this form of copy protection was ever effective. Those who would actually copy the games were connected to the 'scene' and knew the workarounds. Even when I was very young there were cracked copies of games being passed around. Nowhere near as prolific, but then games were nowhere near as prolific either. I doubt the actual % has changed.

[PsiSoldier]

also, I'd bet M&B is on sale because warband is slated for release next month; its a form of get the old out while you still can and get press for your new game at the same time.

but like I said, would never work for a game like dominions, not in a million years.

Yeah of course, I have no doubt Its a form of advertisement for the new Warband game. They Say Warband is an Expansion but it doesnt seem that way considering they say it is stand alone and all that. (So yeah, out with the old and in with the new) I think for something to really qualify as an expansion it has to be an addition to the original game and not something that can entirely replace it. I suppose they probably call it an expansion because its not exactly a full fledged totally improved sequel. But it will have some cool new things the original didn't have like multiplayer. I suppose I could possibly be wrong and Warbands may actually have large parts of the game missing IF you dont have the original as well, but I doubt it. I'm downloading the Beta right now actually so I might know before long.

And I totally disagree that Dominions couldn't sell on something like Steam. If they can sell a million different Nancy Drew titles then they could certainly sell Dominions. :D

Although I do kind of doubt they could sell Dominions on Steam at its current price point... Or at least not too many copies.

[Sombre]

Dom3 wouldn't be sold on steam via Shrapnel would it? So no need for the price to stay the same?

As I say every time this comes up, I know like ten people who I basically had convinced that they'd like dom3, then I told them the price and they told me to GTFO.

[cleveland]

Back to the OP, Mount & Blade is made by Paradox. Anyone here play any of their other games, like the Europa Universalis or Hearts of Iron series?

[slMagnvox]

Back to the OP, Mount & Blade is made by Paradox. Anyone here play any of their other games, like the Europa Universalis or Hearts of Iron series?

Paradox is the publisher. Taleworlds is the developer, basically just a handful of people from Turkey.

Analogous to Shrapnel publishing Illwinter, basically just a couple guys from Sweden.

Taleworlds haven't released any other games besides Mount and Blade.

[Sombre]

I was part of the mount and blade community, which had its fair share of problems, but also did a lot right. One thing M&B definitely has going for it is some badass mods. It also has some horrible but strangely popular ones which are largely history based and have insane amounts of historical detail, but are coincidentally also terrible to actually play.

[AstralWanderer]

I purchased this about a year ago, found out it required online activation (*without* making it clear on the packaging) and sent it back. It's bad enough having to deal with CD checks or cardboard codewheels, but online activation means the program dies when the servers shut down (see Shamus Young's Authorization Servers (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1680) article for more on this).

Steam has its own problems though - as well as its own online activation system, you have all your purchases tied to one Steam account, meaning that it becomes very possible (and very profitable) for Valve to slap on an annual (or even a monthly) fee to keep accounts open. Who'd refuse to pay a $10 monthly fee if it mean losing access to several hundred dollars of previously purchased software?

[Ink]

I purchased this about a year ago, found out it required online activation (*without* making it clear on the packaging) and sent it back. It's bad enough having to deal with CD checks or cardboard codewheels, but online activation means the program dies when the servers shut down (see Shamus Young's Authorization Servers (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1680) article for more on this).

Steam has its own problems though - as well as its own online activation system, you have all your purchases tied to one Steam account, meaning that it becomes very possible (and very profitable) for Valve to slap on an annual (or even a monthly) fee to keep accounts open. Who'd refuse to pay a $10 monthly fee if it mean losing access to several hundred dollars of previously purchased software?

It will *never* be profitable to charge a repeating fee of any kind to digitally access one-time purchase software[1]. The reason for this is a thing called elasticity of demand. People want new games, and if Steam won't give it to them for free, someone else will.

Steam charging the users to use the service would be like credit card companies charging users to use their cards; everyone would stop using them, and the company wouldn't make any money.

[1] - for that matter, Steam has not even found it profitable to force users to use their servers, and charge a fee, for a game like Team Fortress 2, which is necessarily an online multiplayer game.

[chrispedersen]

Oh, flashback! Anyone remember the 'secret decoder disk'? It was a cardboard wheel with holes in it, on top of another disk, and you had to align some runes and find the hidden copy protection code. Maybe in some SSI RPG or something?

I do remember the disk but can't recall the game either. Might be google-able if you are lucky.
-ssj

The first game I remember that had that was called Sentinel... pretty good game too. EGA resolution ....

[Foodstamp]

So I played some Mount and Blade over the weekend. I forgot how hard mounted combat was. I am roleplaying as a steppe nomad and all my recruits are nomads as well. It is pretty much god mode when we raid the Nord areas or fight anything that doesn't have horses. The closest thing I can compare this game to is "Pirates!" with the difference being the game takes place on land instead of the high seas.

[Ink]

the absolute best weapon in the entire game is a good shield, a jousting lance, and a warhorse or better.

you can singlehandedly decimate armies of nords (they have short weapons and not a lot of missile weapons) and swadians (they have short weapons and slow missile weapons, but some horses). Veagirs and Khans have enough missile fire to make it to difficult to take them out without backup, and Rhodok spears (despite what people say) do in fact work pretty good against horses (since they are long enough to still get an occasional hit in even against the length of a jousting lance).

[Foodstamp]

I'm really loving it. Best 5 dollars I have spent in a while, and it came with a beta key for the expansion.

[slMagnvox]

I was playing this last year and was a lot of fun. Might have to go figure out how to fire it up again.

My favorite tactic was a fast horse, good horsemanship and any lance I could couch. Like Ink mentioned, you can really crush infantry, especially the Nordic guys. Until you got an ax in the face. Horse archery is also a lot of fun.

Wonder if they did anything to improve the sieges, I found those rather frustrating.

[Ink]

it MUST be a jousting lance. not only are they the longest weapon in the game, they are blunt so you get tons of prisoners.

[Foodstamp]

Speaking of prisoners, I am having a hard time finding the guys in the tavern you ransom them too, is there a trick to it? This time around I haven't even picked up prisoner management because I end up toting around prisoners until I get tired of the slowed down speed and let them go.

[Ink]

no trick, there's like 6 of them and they just travel from city to city on a weekly basis. However, I think Tihr has a permanent one, he is called "Slave Trader".

[AstralWanderer]

It will *never* be profitable to charge a repeating fee of any kind to digitally access one-time purchase software[1].Hmm...Steam claim to have 25 million active accounts. A $5 monthly fee (half of what World of Warcraft charges) could bring in an extra $1,200,000,000/year (assuming an 80% takeup rate) for virtually no extra expense - and you don't consider that profitable?
The reason for this is a thing called elasticity of demand. People want new games, and if Steam won't give it to them for free, someone else will.Steam isn't a free service now - they charge disproportionately high prices for games (often exceeding retail (http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1051762/digital-distribution-rip-suspected)) given that digital distribution has no physical costs (packaging, storage, transport, inventory management, etc).

Steam charging the users to use the service would be like credit card companies charging users to use their cards; everyone would stop using them, and the company wouldn't make any money.You seem to have missed the main crux of my previous post - if your Steam account is closed, all the games you purchased from them stop working. That means Steam users aren't likely to be walking away, whatever changes Valve makes.

[Sombre]

No I think he got that, he was saying when people buy games, they usually only care about the newer stuff. Which is certainly true of mainstream buyers.

It's also true of mainstream buyers that even if they don't ever use something, they go completely ape**** if someone takes it away or tries to ransom it. So I doubt steam would do that.

[Foodstamp]

In the United States at least they would not be able to do that. They would need to give you your previously purchased content without the monthly fee. They could start charging a monthly fee, but it would have to apply to new content only. If they tried to do it the way you suggest, they would have a huge lawsuit on their hands.

Back to Mount and Blade...

Where can I ransom captured lords? And I think the most fun I have had in the game so far is recruiting the Peasant girl "Ymira" and turning her into an all out warrior :).

[Baalz]

Yeah, I actually captured a king (due to participating in a ginormous battle at which I was a bit player), but the ransom broker didn't want anything to do with him, no special options when I talked to my king...even took him back to his country but just got chased around by P.O.'ed dudes. After awhile he just escaped...

[Illuminated One]

In some mods you can "ask" captured lords to join your kingdom (that is if you have one) or kill them (1 less army for your enemies) - I really don't know why you'd want to play vanilla if there's 100s of good mods around. In the vanilla game you will eventually be offered ransom money via a messenger.

[Ink]

hang on to captured lords/kings for awhile and eventually their 'families will offer to pay you for their release'

that's all there is to it, just have to wait. the message will just pop up as you are wandering around the overland map. they usually pay from 3-6k. also, while talking to other lords they will occasionally offer to take them from you for a lesser amount.

[AstralWanderer]

In the United States at least they would not be able to do that...Why not? There's plenty of precedence for changing contracts and charging regular fees (certain credit cards being a clear example) and Section 2-209 of the Uniform Commercial Code (http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm#s2-209) specifically allows for such amendments. In Steam's case, there wouldn't even need to be a change - section 4B of the Steam Agreement (http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/) includes the following:

"...Valve reserves the right to change our fees or billing methods at any time and Valve will provide notice of any such change at least thirty (30) days advance. All changes will be posted as amendments to this Agreement or in the Rules of Use and...you are responsible for reviewing the billing section of Steam to obtain timely notice of such changes."

Now whether Valve will go down this route is purely conjecture, I'll agree. But it would be immensely profitable for them (the only downside is deterring new customers, which could be countered by having more "Steam-exclusives") which in the world of business makes it a "when" rather than an "if".

As Mount and Blade has its own online activation system too, this means that it will almost surely die if Taleworlds shuts down also.

[Ink]

you need to read up on more economics to go along with your archival knowledge

http://www.investopedia.com/university/economics/economics4.asp

the service steam provides is very elastic, it isn't essential and can be supplied easily by any number of other existing competitors providing similar services. Therefore, it will never be profitable to levy a subscription fee for a steam account because people will just leave steam.

[Foodstamp]

In the United States at least they would not be able to do that...Why not? There's plenty of precedence for changing contracts and charging regular fees (certain credit cards being a clear example) and Section 2-209 of the Uniform Commercial Code (http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm#s2-209) specifically allows for such amendments. In Steam's case, there wouldn't even need to be a change - section 4B of the Steam Agreement (http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/) includes the following:

"...Valve reserves the right to change our fees or billing methods at any time and Valve will provide notice of any such change at least thirty (30) days advance. All changes will be posted as amendments to this Agreement or in the Rules of Use and...you are responsible for reviewing the billing section of Steam to obtain timely notice of such changes."

Now whether Valve will go down this route is purely conjecture, I'll agree. But it would be immensely profitable for them (the only downside is deterring new customers, which could be countered by having more "Steam-exclusives") which in the world of business makes it a "when" rather than an "if".

As Mount and Blade has its own online activation system too, this means that it will almost surely die if Taleworlds shuts down also.

I didn't say they couldn't change their billing scheme. I said they can't hold your purchased content for ransom.

And there is no way it would be profitable. Steam has several near competitors that would be the ones to reap the benefits of such a change. It would take more than just some Steam exclusive content to make people want to pay a monthly fee, it would take A LOT of content, and that content would need to be premium and would be expensive to negotiate exclusive rights to.

What you guys are suggesting sounds less like business and more like evil conspiracy that goes against making profit and more into the realm "Lets screw our customers".

No business is in the business to piss off customers. Or they won't be in business for long.

[Arralen]

I purchased this about a year ago, found out it required online activation (*without* making it clear on the packaging) and sent it back. It's bad enough having to deal with CD checks or cardboard codewheels, but online activation means the program dies when the servers shut down ...
This is not quite true, or at least not the full picture:


http://www.taleworlds.com/salesfaq.aspx

Q: Will my serial key work for updated versions of Mount and Blade?
A: Absolutely. We actively maintain Mount and Blade and we will release new versions with added content and updates frequently. Your serial key will work with these updated versions. Just install the updated version on your computer and run. The game should recognize your serial key.

Q: Will I experience any problems about my activation if I change/upgrade my computer?
A: We use a very loose scheme of harware binding. Upgrading/changing components of your system generally does not require a reactivation since Mount and Blade will recognize that some of the parts remain unchanged. Also you can install and activate Mount and Blade on a new machine once every 60 days.

Q: What if your company goes out of business?
A: We have no intention to go out of business. However if that becomes a possibility, we will do our best to provide an unprotected executable of Mount and Blade to our customers.

Q: Can I install Mount and Blade on more than one computer?
A: You can install Mount and Blade on a second computer provided you own them both. For example you can install it on your desktop computer and your laptop simultaneously.



http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,12982.0.html

Manual Activation Process

Mount & Blade allows for manual activation for use on systems which cannot connect to the internet. The process is as follows:

1. Install Mount & Blade on the PC you wish to activate it on
2. Run the activation, and choose "Manual Activation"
3. You will see a screen with a Hardware Hash number and an empty box for the Activation Code
4. Write down the Hardware Hash (you might want to write down your serial key on the same bit of paper)
5. On a PC which has internet access, go to http://www.taleworlds.com/act/. (if that gives you problems, try http://www.taleworlds.net/act/
6. On the activation page, enter your serial and hardware hash. Click OK
7. You will be given a long (16 or so digit) activation code. Write this down.
8. Return to the PC you wish to activate M&B on. Run activation and again choose "manual activation"
9. Enter the activation code you obtained in step 7 into the box and hit ok
10. You should be returned to the M&B splash screen, with "Mount & Blade is running in full mode" displayed to the left

Activations
Each serial key allows you to activate M&B twice in each 60 day period. If you use up those activations, further attempts to activate the game will result in an "Activation Denied" message. If this happens, you will need to wait until the 60 day period is up and your activation counter resets.
The serial is tied to the hardware hash of your machine. If the hardware hash changes, then you will need to reactivate. The hardware hash can be changed by re-installing windows, or altering the system hardware.



So, if the activation service dies one day, you could still run M&B indefinitly on those 2 machines you installed it to as long as you don't change the hardware too much - even if Taleworlds goes under so fast that they can't provide the no-activation patch, or even the founder and programmer can't do this "privately" (Would basically require that a meteor hits the programmer and all his code backups, but you never know ...)


That said, the base M&B game is just that - a base game. But there are tons of great mods out there, which could provide you with quite some fun besides doing the "Knight Lance-The-Whole-Lot" thing ;)


PS: Personally, I wouldn't touch Steam with a 20-foot pole ... so no 5 buck M&B for me ..

[PsiSoldier]

In the United States at least they would not be able to do that. They would need to give you your previously purchased content without the monthly fee. They could start charging a monthly fee, but it would have to apply to new content only. If they tried to do it the way you suggest, they would have a huge lawsuit on their hands.

Back to Mount and Blade...

Where can I ransom captured lords? And I think the most fun I have had in the game so far is recruiting the Peasant girl "Ymira" and turning her into an all out warrior :).

You dont ransom captured Lords. You just hold on to them as your prisoner usually you will want to build a prison tower or something for this so they wont escape as easily and when that faction wants them back they will offer you a ransom for the lord without you seeking out someone to pay for them.

If you want to make it easier to defeat the faction you can turn down their ransom offer so they start to run out of lords to fight against you and you will loose a little bit of honor, not that that matters too much. I usually turn down the offer unless its a hugely generous offer and I need gold.



As for the whole Steam discussion. Thats absurd they could never get away with ransoming things you had already paid for. Regardless of anything they put in their EULA they would be sued and loose.

However... It might would be a good deal for them if they went for an optional subscription based service where you could download and play any game on Steam for a monthly fee while you still maintained the rights to any game you had previously purchased if you subscribed or not. I could actually see that happening.

[Gandalf Parker]

the predominant purpose of Steam is and shall remain the provision of subscriptions and services related theretoValve offers some subscriptions for free, and some for a subscription fee.THE ENTIRE RISK ARISING OUT OF USE OR PERFORMANCE OF STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, AND MERCHANDISE REMAINS WITH YOU.VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND/OR YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S).YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY DISPUTE WITH VALVE TO STEAM OR THE STEAM SOFTWARE IS TO DISCONTINUE USE OF STEAM AND CANCEL YOUR ACCOUNT.Valve may amend this Agreement at any time in its sole discretion.All capitalization is that of Steam, not mine. All of this is from the Terms of Service that everyone agrees to when they start an account on Steam.

[AstralWanderer]

So, if the activation service dies one day, you could still run M&B indefinitly on those 2 machines you installed it to as long as you don't change the hardware too much - even if Taleworlds goes under so fast that they can't provide the no-activation patch, or even the founder and programmer can't do this "privately" (Would basically require that a meteor hits the programmer and all his code backups, but you never know ...)
Thanks for the clarification on M&B's activation system (which puts it on a parallel with Stardock's) - however it does still pose a real risk for purchasers, as there is realistically no chance of the programmer releasing a DRM-free version "privately" in the event of company closure, see Shamus Young's Authorization Servers (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1680) article on why not.

[Joelz]

I wouldn't really call buying it with 5$ a risk...

[Foodstamp]

I am ready to try a mod for Mount and Blade but I am having a hard time wading through the modding forums. Can you guys name a few mods that are top notch. I am particularly interested in an improved vanilla maybe with a few features added if they fit well into the game. Is SoD a good mod and will it work with the graphic improvement one?

[Joelz]

I haven't been playing M&B much recently, but after looking at some mods, I'd recommend these:

WWII: China Battlefield
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/board,137.0.html

Prophesy of Pendor
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/board,119.0.html

Pendor is a bit more complicated than most mods, so I suggest reading the mod's forums a bit.


About the graphical improvement, I think they just replace textures and models from native, so they should work.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, forgot to mention Native Expansion
Link:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/board,109.0.html

Here's the list of released mods:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/board,63.0.html

[sector24]

Steam charging the users to use the service would be like credit card companies charging users to use their cards; everyone would stop using them, and the company wouldn't make any money.

Interestingly, I got a letter last week telling me that Citibank is charging an annual fee of $60 on all their cards to maintain their current level of service. I cancelled my card the next day.

[Foodstamp]

More fun stuff in Mount and Blade. I added Vanheim complete with a troop tree!

[Ink]

I've always thought a Dom mod would be perfectly doable for M&B

[Foodstamp]

It's pretty cool. I've been learning python so it was pretty easy. My troop tree is Serf --> Huskarl --> Hirdman or mounted Hirdman ---> Vanhere or Vanherse. The lords are "Vanjarls". Then I just took a few cities from another faction and gave them their little place in the world :).

I want to do arco next, but I am having a hard time finding appropriate armor and shields.