Can someone tell me about Machaka?

[BigDaddy]

I love the colossal fetish pretender, but I have a lot of trouble getting him or machak rolling in a way that makes me feel protected.

For instance, if I'm playing blood, all I need is a bunch of summons and a little research, 40 spine devils (I think spine devils are often overlooked), for instance, to feel secure in the first 20 turns or so.

With Machaka, all they seem to have is the big black spider that survives and can even lead units after its rider dies... which helps a lot with upkeep...

Actually, the fetish seems to work OK, being like an mobile immobile defender.

How do I set this nation up for greatness with a pretender, and what is an early roadmark I might shoot for?

[Squirrelloid]

Step 1: Don't use the fetish pretender! Seriously, its really bad.

You either want an awake SC or a decent bless for your spiders, possibly both. The Scorpion King makes a great SC and isn't commonly available, but there are certainly other more standard options.

Blesses don't have to be big, and what you're looking to bless is the spider after the rider gets killed, so E9 is no help. A rainbow bless may be the best, although certainly W9 would be cool, and F9 isn't bad. Consider minor blesses in blood, air, and nature.

If not ponying up for a bless, your heavily armored stealthy guys are pretty cool and really tough.

Note that your recruit anywhere troops are pretty bad, so you're going to have to switch over to magery and summons pretty early.

[Trumanator]

Forget a bless. The black spiders are expensive and cap only. Spam the regular spider riders, get an SC if you think you need it. If you simply must use the fetish, try forging some boots of the behemoth for him on turn 2 or 3. This helps you get around his craptastic att skill, though his aps are also pretty bad.

[BigDaddy]

Well... I think E9 is really a blessing for sacred mages (which machaka has), and I really like it with MA Pythium, because they use communions and don't have earth magic.

[Trumanator]

E9 is stupid for mages. If thats what you want get E8

[BigDaddy]

Jeez, sorry. But, you're right, I ussually just get 4 on a rainbow pretender, unless I'm using the cyclops, in which case, I'm not sure how much I'd spend on Earth magic.

[chrispedersen]

well, first machaka sucks.
That said, the usual advice is to fever fetish spam. I seem to remember the shape change ability made them immune to death - but ... I'd have to look at that again to be sure.

Now, in vanilla, your sacred spider commander is strong enough to take most indies... be careful in the order that you give him items. Give him a shield first, and he loses and attack. Give him the weapon first.

Since you and your troops are all poison resistant - I like the snake bladder sticks.. a lot. As long as you are not in CBM
Midget mashers work great against enemy SCs.

Since you will die (a lot) send someone with him to pick up the pieces.

Personally I play them much like LA man. Maximize income - build forts asap.. I usually start the second on turn 3 or 4.

Flame arrows should be an early target.

As an alternate to the fetish, I also like the lord of plenty (n3) since it makes an n9 bless cheap. Berserk (n9) will add a little protection - but more importantly it keeps your spiders on the field berserk when they would otherwise route. Also iirc the hunter spiders have no upkeep.

The lord of rebirth would be perfect - but unfortunately I don't think he's available to machaka.

Anyway you slice it - you're going to be a target, in an mp game. With your lords that have a patrol bonus; take a growth three and patrol with these sacred lords..

Anyway - I think you see why you need forts - everywhere. Three items I would get to know: bows of botuff, banevenom charms, and evening stars.

[Corporal Clegg]

I once played Machaka SP, focused hard on the sacred great spider knights. Their magic resistance sucks, and Ermors holy apostacy-spell made my own holy army of lethal spiders turn on me. Expensive.

[Squirrelloid]

Chris, those black hunter lords sound nice in theory, but without being able to self-bless they're kind of useless as thugs. And for expansion it'd be a pain to buy BHLs and priests alternately since you wouldn't be buying mages and would only be kicking out an expansion party every other turn.

Sacred commanders without holy levels make me sad, especially when they want to be used solo.

[Gregstrom]

To be fair, chrispedersen never said he was actually blessing the Hunter Lords.

[thejeff]

Machaka's all about the Spiders. Not the big Hunter spiders but hordes of Spider Riders and then upkeep free Spiders when the Spiders die.
Later, Fever Fetishes in vanilla and drakes & cheap death summons in CBM.
Sorcerors & Black Sorcerors are both good for battle magic.

Maybe a minor bless in paths you need for diversity, but that's incidental.

[chrispedersen]

Chris, those black hunter lords sound nice in theory, but without being able to self-bless they're kind of useless as thugs. And for expansion it'd be a pain to buy BHLs and priests alternately since you wouldn't be buying mages and would only be kicking out an expansion party every other turn.

Sacred commanders without holy levels make me sad, especially when they want to be used solo.

This is the reason I said "like LA-Man"

The trick is forts... Lots and lots of forts. Look:

1. Your expansion forces are going to cost between 80 and 350, depending on whether you are going to solo, or send a group of spideys.

2, you start with a priest, and you prophetize another: two expansions groups on turn two.

3. once you get going, if you stick a ring of regen, and a lycan amulet, with the bless, in spidey form you're regenerating 14 hp a turn. and you've got what 4 attacks a round, inc web spit? handles most indies just fine.

4. I don't have a problem hitting the magic number 15 in SP play with machaka, with this strategy.

[vfb]

Rings of regen and "lots and lots of forts" are not a good expansion strategy.

[BigDaddy]

I don't think spiders would make me feel safe. For instance, if I was playing Abysia, like I said in the first post, and I came across him at turn 20, he could have 40 spine devils or more, and I don't think I could protect myself. I think those big spiders, especially the skinny ones, would fall like so much chaff to a reaper.

If I was in two player, I'd want one of Machaka's forts right up his butt... and then he'd probably quit.

Those spiders might be good enough on turn 12, but one turn 18, on turn 20... 25... I'm scared if I only have spiders and skelly spam.

Someone said I should get drakes. I always thought of drakes as something the enemy beats on while I hit them with spells.

What spells should I be casting ?

[BigDaddy]

So, how about some drakes and a sea of longdead + legions of steal?

Versus some spine devils, lots of summoned imps, and some minor fire evos... Abysia seems like a particularly tough enemy for Machaka.

[Trumanator]

Honestly I have never seen someone use spine devils. Also, are you talking CBM or Vanilla?

[Jarkko]

I would advice you to prophetise a Black hunter lord. If you have a small nature bless, you'll have a regen already there (give him a few normal spiders as body-guards, script Holy Avenger Attack rear). In fact, I would go as far as to try to get the rider killed... In friendly dominion the auto-blessed spider will have north of 100 HP and regenerates with a minor N bless (though just 5 HP per turn, but still good enough to prevent afflictions) and you still have two misc slots (for a ring of regen, or lucky amulet, or whatever you fancy).

With Machaka you can push out an expansion party each turn (indy leader (if you just get some indy leader who can shoot something, so much better) moves to capital to pick up 10 spiders, then goes hunting; 10 spiders will rip apart most infantry (avoid barbarians though)) or if you need to take something heavier (barbarians, knights, heavy cavalry) recruit spiders for a couple turns (30 spiders can take out most likely anything, just form them into three squads with orders Fire closest; when your riders start to die (to enemy arrows) the riderless spiders charge forwards and spit web, disrupting the enemy lines totally).

If you face elephants (or other tramplers) or giants (or Hydras for that matter), you need to recruit the black spiders. The black spiders are not really worth it IMO, but they laugh themselves silly at elephants and giants, who get webbed up and poisoned to death by these humongous spiders.

After the initial expansion frenzy you should have a boatload of riderless spiders. They are upkeep free and excellent flankers.

If you play with CBM you should by now have Dragon Master (Ench 3, which also gives you skelly spam) and Summon Fire Drakes (Conj 3) researched, then go for evocations. Fire Drakes in center (they are tough as nails and the breath fire), riderless spiders on flanks, sorcerors bombarding evocations (keep a sizeable body guard of the heavy Machakan infantry around the mages, they repel any fliers easily). The ever loved skelly-spam is also an option, especially against nations who do not fear fire (Abysia for example; let your skellies exhaust the abysian infantry with their high fatigue, and rip them apart).

If you are playing vanilla Dominions, then you should go for Fire Fetishes as fast as possible, and then go for Flaming Arrows instead (while not forgetting skelly-spam, it is even more important in vanilla), and BURN everything in sight with your basic cheap archers, while your heavy infantry and skellies holds the center and the spiders attack on the flanks. Flaming arrows really is too powerful in vanilla (and totally useless in CBM, but that is just my personal opinion, others claim they still see it used under CBM; personally I hope so very much Flaming arrows would see some slight change in CBM to at least make it an option to consider), so take full advantage of that. While your Flaming Arrowed armies hold your neighbours in terror, take maximum advantage of the fire gems the fetishes bring; craft items, summon stuff, even alchemise them to bring in money for more castles etc. Fetishes are really the thing Machaka desperately needs.

However, Machaka is a one trick pony. When your opponent notices you are all about fire fire fire and some more fire wether it is CBM or vanilla, you are doomed (there are so many ways to make even full armies fire resistant); in CBM this happens quite a bit sooner though, in vanilla you might have a chance to stick around slightly longer. Machaka has no proper tools for endgame, sadly. You have to rush the map when you are at your strongest, in middle game, and hope the others fold over. Also, a lot depends on your pretender, as you have to choose your pretender to either boost your strengths (but you already are so very strong in fire, so it is hard to come up with something that would make it even more stronger) or to compensate your weaknesses (but there are so many weaknesses Machaka has, that it will be very difficult).

[BigDaddy]

CBM because you get 3 at a time, for spine debils. It lets you switch to a different path. I just use them for defense, not attacking, but in a pinch I'm sured they'd perform just fine.


Spine devils plus blood mage imp spam will kill armies stupid enough not to respect lvl 1 blood in the early-mid game.

[Jarkko]

Spine devils on defence works fine as long as your PD is at least half decent. Spine devils (and imps to take the banishment barrage) works wonders when you plan your PD to hold the center while the spine devils get to rip anything and everything on the flanks.

However, Machakan PD just sucks. You'll see your PD spearmen rush forwards, get shot by your own PD archers, and your spearmen rout, which sees your archers being next in line to take the brunt of the assault, and your army routs before the spine devils had a chance to deliver a single hit...


EDIT: Machaka is an all out offensive nation. You have about zero defensive options, so just press on like mad when you can, and hope your opponents croak before they notice you are the glass cannon who delivers pain just fine but can't take anything in return without shattering totally.

[Amorphous]

You seem a bit hung up about the spine devils.

Please consider that 40 of them represent a major investment at the stage of the game you are talking about. Since they cost 3 slaves and a blood 2 mage turn per unit in addition to the requirement of a researched level of blood they are at least the equivalent of 120 blood slaves and 200 research points. You need to make a commensurate investment as Machaka to get the sort of result you want.

Machaka is primarily a mage nation, and this is where you should look for power. You do not summon a wave of cheap troops, that is what low resource troops and spiders are for. You blight your enemy's capital, spread disease among his troops and poisons his land. To battle you bring your mighty sorcerers that frighten, curse and burn the rabble that your enemy managed bring against you. Then you feed upon the corpses and dance upon a dead god's grave.

Sure, a lot of spiders and men will die against tough oponents, but who cares? Machakan spears are the blades of the singing grass of the savannah and the layers of crawling spiders in the Machakan forests are countless. Let lesser nations worry about troops dying - Machaka always has more.


To put the raving aside, you have top notch mages - use them. Most of your mages can self-buff with Eagle Eyes, which makes them deadly accurate. You can get far with the usual fire evocations, but where that is not effective - say against Abysian troops - you have things like Magma Bolts as well as poison and stun damage. And frighten is always fun.

With your very resource cheap archers, Flame Arrows is ridiculously good against practically anything not fire immune.

There are plenty of battlefield spells that goes very well with your cheap and fast troops. Look at spells like Iron Bane and Curse of Stones to get an idea of what you can do.


Finally, do not underestimate spiders. Poison is rather effective in a lot of situations and those wonderful webs makes everyone very easy to hit. While all varieties of spiders have their place, the vast majority of those you buy should be the resource cheap ones, so you should have a lot of them.

Edit:
CBM changes things around a bit, but not that much really. Flame Arrows is harder to cast and Fever Fetishes are not available, which makes fire gems less plentyfull, but at this early stage it does not matter that much. Dragon Master does make greater utilization of Fire Drakes economical, though. And that helps against Abysia.

[Belac]

Machaka works like the Air Force. It is weak in hand-to-hand combat but has great artillery power.

Its strength is:

Recruitable-anywhere mages with potential for F2, D2, and N3
Cheap researchers who become very efficient with Magic 1 scale (in a recruitable-anywhere and cap-only flavor), but whose absolute research level is low (so you need a lot from different forts)

If you fear a rush, either get a SC pretender or rush to magic research your mages can spam (I have actually had luck with hoplites in front of mages casting Sleep Cloud--the hoplites force the enemy to stand in the cloud, and often don't die until the enemy fatigues out). Once the rush danger period is over, spam forts and build enough sorcerers to get several of each useful random, then start summoning your armies. If you're not in CBM, fire fetish-->fire drakes is a good way to go.

You also have good access to remote-attack spells. Empower a couple F2 sorcerers, or take a F4 pretender and build fire helmets, to add Flames from Afar to your arsenal to even the score for the big battles. You also have Blight, Locust Swarms, Iron Walls, and a few good Death spells.

With your powerful research, nature, and death magic, you're good in the late game with Tarts too.

[thejeff]

Who are your cheap researchers?

In CBM, Dragon Master gives you easy cheap Fire and Cave drakes. Banes with cheap gear make good heavy front line thugs. Your spiders and undead are poison immune. Webs slow the enemy down. Nature, earth & Fire also have good tangling spells.

[Illuminated One]

However, Machaka is a one trick pony. When your opponent notices you are all about fire fire fire and some more fire wether it is CBM or vanilla, you are doomed (there are so many ways to make even full armies fire resistant); in CBM this happens quite a bit sooner though, in vanilla you might have a chance to stick around slightly longer. Machaka has no proper tools for endgame, sadly. You have to rush the map when you are at your strongest, in middle game, and hope the others fold over. Also, a lot depends on your pretender, as you have to choose your pretender to either boost your strengths (but you already are so very strong in fire, so it is hard to come up with something that would make it even more stronger) or to compensate your weaknesses (but there are so many weaknesses Machaka has, that it will be very difficult).

Well, you have access to bane fire, magma erruption and the various death spells, which are all not subject to fire resistance. I don't know how good your death is atm but there are much worse nations when it comes to magic.

[thejeff]

Yeah, I'm not sure why Machaka would be all about Fire. Fire's easy to rely on early on, but Machaka's got strong Nature, Death and Earth as well. Some of that's capital only, but that's not uncommon.

The late game weakness is mobility. No native teleporters. Tartarians will help, but abundant mobile thugs will be missed.
Machaka does seem to cry out for national spells. Lots of flavor and a unique culture. It should have magic the more European oriented nations don't.

[Jarkko]

Bane Fire (excellent against giant type targets, sadly the AI likes to target the spell on things like Dragonflies, Imps and such) and Magma Eruption (nice against massed low- or un-armoured targets, and thus excellent against those very feared human wave militia attacks, but totally useless against heavy armoured troops or Fog Warriors) are mid-game spells. I still believe midgame is where Machaka is strong, in the end-game it has very few options.

[Torin]

Combination
Pretender with FWSN - +2 pen rods - Eye of the void - (+4 pen)

N3 mage + thristle mace + moonvine bracelet (N5)
or replace with N2 E1 + Strength of gaea casting. (N5)

Charm with +5 penetration / 12 fatigue cost

7F7W18N3S gems with hammer.

Not cheap but...
SC and Thugs costs as much gems if not more.

[thejeff]

Magma Eruption is useless against Fog Warriors? Doesn't it break the mistform at least? So the second cast does damage?
Sure those examples are midgame spells, though still useful.

Lategame, they'll have Army of Gold/Lead, Petrify, Relief, Mass Regen/Protection, Charm, Earthquake, Tartarians and all the Death magic/summons.

[Torin]

Black Sorcerer F3

+2 pen rod+flaming helm+eyeof the void+spell focus

Phoenix power + Blindness ( pen + 7)

This looks better and research lower.

[Jarkko]

Magma Eruption is useless against Fog Warriors? Doesn't it break the mistform at least?
Not automatically. Sometimes it breaks, sometimes not. Just ran a ten tests with an Ulm smith scripted Hold, Magma Bolt, Retreat (as I think Magma bolts are basically same things as Magma eruption just on a smaller scale; if I am wrong I am certain somebody will correct me) on a titan (as I wanted to repeat the test a few times, I guess it basic HP does not make any difference to mistform breaking or not) who was defending and did cast mistform (hard to tell with magma bolts though, not sure if one or more bolts do hit) Hold x 4, and in five tests mistform didn't break. I guess the magma bolt (and magma eruption) damage is not magical damage?

[Jarkko]

Black Sorcerer F3

+2 pen rod+flaming helm+eyeof the void+spell focus

Phoenix power + Blindness ( pen + 7)

This looks better and research lower.
Torin, excuse me, but looks better for what? As far as I know just Rage and Hydrophobia are the only fire spell requiring a MR check, so I think you are not refering to them. I must be missing something obvious here but I don't understand what :confused:

[thejeff]

I'd guess Magma Bolts were missing. Did they do any damage? The 1 pt that you see hitting mistform?

[anonymity]

I think Magma Bolts (and other bolts) can be parried by a Shield. So a Titan may not be the best test subject.

[vfb]

Both Magma Bolts and Eruption are magical damage. See DrP's spreadsheet:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=36617

Magma Bolts are not AoE, so they are probably blockable by a shield, and may be treated as a missile for the purposes of whether they hit the target (even when they land in the square the target is in).

I'd be surprised if Magma Eruption does not break the mistform every time, if the AoE effect hits the square the titan is in.

[cleveland]

Black Sorcerer F3

+2 pen rod+flaming helm+eyeof the void+spell focus

Phoenix power + Blindness ( pen + 7)

This looks better and research lower.
Torin, excuse me, but looks better for what? As far as I know just Rage and Hydrophobia are the only fire spell requiring a MR check, so I think you are not refering to them. I must be missing something obvious here but I don't understand what :confused:

Fail your DRN Jarkko? :D

p.s. were you confusing Magma Eruption with Blade Wind before?

Also, OP: The colossal fetish is awesome. Don't let these guys tell you otherwise. Go Dom9, A4E3, use your native E gems to give him some Behemoth Boots, and watch that size-6 zero-encumbrance 25-protection block of lumber roll over everyone in sight. Give him Mistform & he's good through mid-game. Cloud Trapeze and your raiding problems are mitigated. Use your consequentially awesome scales to fort-spam your way to Evocation Annihilation. Skellispam + Poison Cloud + Spiders. Spider Warrior raiders everywhere. Magma Eruption + Militia blockers for the tough guys. Your Black Sorcerers are semi-immortal, abuse that. Bring plenty of lantern shields to every party. Ears of the Lord with bane charm venoms uncatchable thanks to their unrest incitement. Could there be a cooler nation???

[BigDaddy]

Black Sorcerer F3

+2 pen rod+flaming helm+eyeof the void+spell focus

Phoenix power + Blindness ( pen + 7)

This looks better and research lower.
Torin, excuse me, but looks better for what? As far as I know just Rage and Hydrophobia are the only fire spell requiring a MR check, so I think you are not refering to them. I must be missing something obvious here but I don't understand what :confused:

Fail your DRN Jarkko? :D

p.s. were you confusing Magma Eruption with Blade Wind before?

Also, OP: The colossal fetish is awesome. Don't let these guys tell you otherwise. Go Dom9, A4E3, use your native E gems to give him some Behemoth Boots, and watch that size-6 zero-encumbrance 25-protection block of lumber roll over everyone in sight. Give him Mistform & he's good through mid-game. Cloud Trapeze and your raiding problems are mitigated. Use your consequentially awesome scales to fort-spam your way to Evocation Annihilation. Skellispam + Poison Cloud + Spiders. Spider Warrior raiders everywhere. Magma Eruption + Militia blockers for the tough guys. Your Black Sorcerers are semi-immortal, abuse that. Bring plenty of lantern shields to every party. Ears of the Lord with bane charm venoms uncatchable thanks to their unrest incitement. Could there be a cooler nation???

In his defense, that is quite a penalty.

Also:
I was trying him with astral, because he's mindless... but only used him is SP so I'm still not sure. It seems a sure thing with Evo though.

[cleveland]

That was my exact build from some MP game a while back (still have the god file). If I recall correctly it was an all MA nations game and I was top 3 in provinces the whole game. Came to a sudden end due to some weird victory conditions and the Admiral's brilliant exploit of some quirky start locations.

But I was pulling off a double invasion quite nicely at the time. I think my long term goal was to have him forge the Air boosters and be my Fog Warrioring/Mass Flighting teleporter supporting my swarms of spiders and berserking, SoG'd, WoS'd, dirt-cheap militia.

[Squirrelloid]

You do realize the colossal fetish has like 4AP, and so tramples 2 squares per round. At that rate you have to be counting on surviving until auto-route. Better hope you aren't the attacker.

[cleveland]

You do realize the colossal fetish has like 4AP, and so tramples 2 squares per round. At that rate you have to be counting on surviving until auto-route. Better hope you aren't the attacker.

2 aoe attacks per round? I'll take that on turn 3 any day.

Auto-rout? Berserker pelt. Also a trinket. Stymphalian wings sure are nice later on. Particularly with dual evening stars, just in case someone gets clever.

What else?

[Squirrelloid]

You do realize the colossal fetish has like 4AP, and so tramples 2 squares per round. At that rate you have to be counting on surviving until auto-route. Better hope you aren't the attacker.

2 aoe attacks per round? I'll take that on turn 3 any day.

Auto-rout? Berserker pelt. Also a trinket. Stymphalian wings sure are nice later on. Particularly with dual evening stars, just in case someone gets clever.

What else?

So you want to die on turn 100 instead of running away, check.

Stymphalian wings won't let you trample any more, though it will get you to the enemy faster.

I'll note the one time i've seen a colossal fetish it died in a few turns of melee to blessed woodsmen, so... I wasn't notably impressed by its survivability.

Pretty sure quickness and a heroes blade puts an end to your trampler decisively.

[BigDaddy]

Yes, but won't heroes blade and quickness kill a cyclops too? I don't see... I don't see how that makes him so weak.

Really, he died to blessed woodsmen? I wonder why, maybe he was out of his dominion?

[vfb]

The fetish is mindless and will die on turn 50, he won't run away. I don't think a berserker pelt will do anything at all (except replace his steel plate armor)

For expansion against indies, you could give him 5D for fear. But Machaka does not need an awake god to expand, it's got spiders. So A is probably good, especially since it gives you Rain of Stones, always nice to have.

I think a frost brand (if you can get your hands on one somehow) or snake bladder, plus a charcoal shield, will work better than trampling, if you want to trapeze around and fight stuff.

It's like a cheaper EA cyclops, that can't be mind hunted.

[Maerlande]

I decided to reply to this thread.

No I can't tell you about Machaka. I don't know anything about them.

[rdonj]

IIRC units that are berserk will fight on until round 75 instead of the normal 50 rounds before fleeing. So it would buy you more time.

[Maerlande]

Hey rdonj
Stop chasing my trolling posts you silly noob!

[rdonj]

No wai!

[Jarkko]

Magma Bolts are not AoE, so they are probably blockable by a shield, and may be treated as a missile for the purposes of whether they hit the target (even when they land in the square the target is in).
You are probably right, thank you for pointing this out :)

[Jarkko]

Black Sorcerer F3

+2 pen rod+flaming helm+eyeof the void+spell focus

Phoenix power + Blindness ( pen + 7)

This looks better and research lower.
Torin, excuse me, but looks better for what? As far as I know just Rage and Hydrophobia are the only fire spell requiring a MR check, so I think you are not refering to them. I must be missing something obvious here but I don't understand what :confused:

Fail your DRN Jarkko? :D
I certainly did :)

However, I definitively need more coffee to understand the why this would be a good thing anyway. Would you really put expensive items (requiring paths Machaka does not have) on a squishy black sorceror to be able to cast a Range 15 spell which is usable against single SC's only? And if it is a trampling SC or a SC with some damaging aura, you got pretty much nothing for the effort.

If I had all those items available, I'd use Shadow Bolts to paralyze the SC. Long range, and even if the bolts don't kill the target, a paralyzed target is a dead target. Sure, will end up with lower +Penetration ("just" +5), but on the other hand you can use the spell even when the SC is still buffing up.

But as I said, I definitively need more coffee to get my brains awoke.

[Squirrelloid]

Yes, but won't heroes blade and quickness kill a cyclops too? I don't see... I don't see how that makes him so weak.

Really, he died to blessed woodsmen? I wonder why, maybe he was out of his dominion?

Woodsman are pretty strong, so punch through protection regularly and for big damage. And, not that that particular colossal fetish was trampling, but at size 4 they're quite resistant to trampling - i doubt you'd lose a single woodsman to the fetish before it died.

IMO cyclops is kind of a crap SC once you're fighting real players. I've killed many of them with ease.

[BigDaddy]

Yes, I suppose. I've killed many early and mid-game SCs with Emerald Guard squads. Their skills are good and they pack better than serpent cataphracts, but I think it's their morale that really does the trick.

[chrispedersen]

Rings of regen and "lots and lots of forts" are not a good expansion strategy.


Says who?

[vfb]

Rings of regen and "lots and lots of forts" are not a good expansion strategy.


Says who?

Sorry, I may have misunderstood you. If by "expansion", you mean "expanding against your neighbors who already ate up all the indies", then it's not a problem.

If you're talking about expanding against indies, which is what I usually take "expansion" to mean, then waiting for a Const-4 item or spending all your 1st year money on forts is just going to get you killed.

[cleveland]

The fetish is mindless and will die on turn 50, he won't run away. I don't think a berserker pelt will do anything at all (except replace his steel plate armor)

For expansion against indies, you could give him 5D for fear. But Machaka does not need an awake god to expand, it's got spiders. So A is probably good, especially since it gives you Rain of Stones, always nice to have.

I think a frost brand (if you can get your hands on one somehow) or snake bladder, plus a charcoal shield, will work better than trampling, if you want to trapeze around and fight stuff.

It's like a cheaper EA cyclops, that can't be mind hunted.

But of course! I forgot about the mindless, I knew he wouldn't autorout. I was mistaken on the Berserker Pelt.

Spiders are amazing, but that game was a lot fun. In reality he wasn't much more than an inexpensive, funny accessory that let me take good scales and have a blistering expansion.

I just couldn't get this image out of my head of a gigantic wooden statue rolling with the slope of the land in a roughly westwards direction, squashing all the pathetic local militias that tried to stop him, causing the inhabitants to pledge their allegiance. :)

[BigDaddy]

The fetish is mindless and will die on turn 50, he won't run away. I don't think a berserker pelt will do anything at all (except replace his steel plate armor)

For expansion against indies, you could give him 5D for fear. But Machaka does not need an awake god to expand, it's got spiders. So A is probably good, especially since it gives you Rain of Stones, always nice to have.

I think a frost brand (if you can get your hands on one somehow) or snake bladder, plus a charcoal shield, will work better than trampling, if you want to trapeze around and fight stuff.

It's like a cheaper EA cyclops, that can't be mind hunted.

Well, I knew that, but he can mind hunt (I think I even named him Bastardo). I though Astral would give him use past the expansion phase. I was not thinking of how that might cause him to absentmindedly kill himself with gifts from heaven.

[chrispedersen]

Rings of regen and "lots and lots of forts" are not a good expansion strategy.


Says who?

Sorry, I may have misunderstood you. If by "expansion", you mean "expanding against your neighbors who already ate up all the indies", then it's not a problem.

If you're talking about expanding against indies, which is what I usually take "expansion" to mean, then waiting for a Const-4 item or spending all your 1st year money on forts is just going to get you killed.


That is not at all what I am saying. With a N9 bless, 3-4 spiders take any indy. And with the blessing I proposed you can easily afford

O3, r1, h2-3, g3, magic 3, luck x.

Each turn you can build an expansion team of 3-4 spiders and a bless monkey.

In fact, since you start with a priest and you can make a prophet you have a leg up. The spider commander prophetized will solo most provinces.

Use the starting troops to patrol, and set the tax rate at 120.
Your income most of the time will be roughly 600 or so.

If you go light on your initial expansion teams (3 spiders) your cost is less than 300.

This means that on turn 3-4 you easily have enough money to build your first fort.

I may be misremembering, however, my remembrance says that sorceresses are 190 for 7 rp. Regardless, you need the second fort to make the eyes of the lord (unit with patrol bonus?). Churn them out to lead troops, and to patrol.

Machaka units (other than spiders) are all resource intensive, and fairly uniformly, crap. However, your spiders are pretty darn good against thugs and SC's.

If you push forts, (while not interfering with your regular expansion) you ameliorate the glaring weakness of machaka pd.

Like I said v, I've got no problem hitting 15 with this strategy, with a 2nd fort built and third on the way in the first year.

What strategy are you promulgating? (and sorry I came across snippy).

[chrispedersen]

The fetish is mindless and will die on turn 50, he won't run away. I don't think a berserker pelt will do anything at all (except replace his steel plate armor)

For expansion against indies, you could give him 5D for fear. But Machaka does not need an awake god to expand, it's got spiders. So A is probably good, especially since it gives you Rain of Stones, always nice to have.

I think a frost brand (if you can get your hands on one somehow) or snake bladder, plus a charcoal shield, will work better than trampling, if you want to trapeze around and fight stuff.

It's like a cheaper EA cyclops, that can't be mind hunted.

But of course! I forgot about the mindless, I knew he wouldn't autorout. I was mistaken on the Berserker Pelt.

Spiders are amazing, but that game was a lot fun. In reality he wasn't much more than an inexpensive, funny accessory that let me take good scales and have a blistering expansion.

I just couldn't get this image out of my head of a gigantic wooden statue rolling with the slope of the land in a roughly westwards direction, squashing all the pathetic local militias that tried to stop him, causing the inhabitants to pledge their allegiance. :)


I don't believe this is correct.

I *believe* that berserk units are given another 25 turns before autodeath.

[rdonj]

Yeah, according to past discussions we've had about this on the forums, 75 is the hard limit on turns.

[Amorphous]

That is not at all what I am saying. With a N9 bless, 3-4 spiders take any indy. And with the blessing I proposed you can easily afford

O3, r1, h2-3, g3, magic 3, luck x.

Each turn you can build an expansion team of 3-4 spiders and a bless monkey.

In fact, since you start with a priest and you can make a prophet you have a leg up. The spider commander prophetized will solo most provinces.

Use the starting troops to patrol, and set the tax rate at 120.
Your income most of the time will be roughly 600 or so.

If you go light on your initial expansion teams (3 spiders) your cost is less than 300.

This means that on turn 3-4 you easily have enough money to build your first fort.

I may be misremembering, however, my remembrance says that sorceresses are 190 for 7 rp. Regardless, you need the second fort to make the eyes of the lord (unit with patrol bonus?). Churn them out to lead troops, and to patrol.

Machaka units (other than spiders) are all resource intensive, and fairly uniformly, crap. However, your spiders are pretty darn good against thugs and SC's.

If you push forts, (while not interfering with your regular expansion) you ameliorate the glaring weakness of machaka pd.

Like I said v, I've got no problem hitting 15 with this strategy, with a 2nd fort built and third on the way in the first year.

What strategy are you promulgating? (and sorry I came across snippy).
You are paying far too much for too little gain. With the scales you have there, you should be able to hit 15+ provinces, as well as a couple of castles, the first year without any bless whatsoever.

I think Black Hunters are generally underestimated here on the boards - probably because past incarnations of CBM made the price discrepancy between them and ordinary spiders so large - but their strength lies mainly in the opening game. Machaka really has no problem there, so investing in a N9 bless that gives you little afterwards is not the best idea.

About 6 Black Hunters without any bless can take practically any indy, pretty much the same as your 3-4 N9 expansion parties. Add in a minor N4 and possibly E4 (the latter helps against largish numbers and might be something you want anyway) and you can shave off a couple of hunters.

Do not get me wrong, you will of course get a better expansion rate with N9 than without, but once the indies are gone, the benefit of the bless will be greatly reduced. Human oponents really do not find it much harder to deal with N9 hunters than unblessed ones.


Also, Machakan troops are certainly not resource intensive. Apart from the hoplite, the regular troops are all very resource cheap. The combination of very cheap archers and good ability to cast Flame Arrows is excellent. Since Machaka has access to both the nature and earth protection spells as well as Iron Bane, cheap troops without armour has an occasional use. Combine with Curse of Stones for more fun.

Lastly Sorceresses have f1e1d1 + 10%fedn and cost 110gp, so 110 for 5rp is more accurate.

[vfb]

I'm using a dormant rainbow S4N4E4B4A?W???, whose minor paths I can't remember because he's currently dead (as the result of a failed experiment). 2 or 3 or something.

@ ChrisP: I agree that black hunters are good for expansion against indies. Rings of Regen, not so much. That was the point I was trying to make.

@ BigDaddy: Mindless units with S can *cast* Mind Hunt just fine. I'm saying a Collosal Fetish can't be targeted by it.

@ Amorphous: I think the Black Hunters are underestimated because outside of CBM they have MR 5 in spider form, and are more expensive to boot.

I don't think that putting a berserker pelt on a Collosal Fetish is a good idea. It's kind of broken: his morale will remain at 50, but he'll gain fatigue from the beserk and won't be able to self-buff. A morale-50 unit is not going to retreat ever anyway. The only exception is if you order him to retreat, which is actually a terrible idea, because he'll have some sort of positronic meltdown and just die.

I'm pretty sure mindless units dissolve on turn 50 whether they are berserk or not.

I don't like to hire the sorceresses because the (also) cap-only sorcerers are so much better.

[Amorphous]

@ Amorphous: I think the Black Hunters are underestimated because outside of CBM they have MR 5 in spider form, and are more expensive to boot.
You are probably right in part, but I doubt that is the whole of it. MR really does not matter during indy expansion and though some may stare themselves blind on the price tag of the hunters, I doubt that most fail to compare the cost to what else Machaka has available.

In vanilla, Black Hunter expansion parties are cheaper in gold but more expensive in resources than parties of Spider Riders. In past versions of CBM the cost of the riders were significantly lessened while hunters had a cost the same as in vanilla, which made the rider parties cheaper in gold and resources - outside of a some ridiculously expensive bless. The hunter cost decrease in the latest CBM version changes the situation to one similar to vanilla.

[Jarkko]

Aren't the Black Spiders still 100 gold each? 10 Spider riders (ie an investment of 300 gold) can take most indy provinces, but can 3 Black Spiders do that too? The usual upkeep advantage sacreds have is not relevant with spiders (riderless spiders are free from upkeep), so just the basic investment matters. I've been under the impresion one needs 5 or 6 black spiders to do the job of 10 brown ones, but I haven't tested this out in a loooong time.

I think I have to try this out :) If 3 Black spiders, even with a bless (build a temple in a province, and build indy priests to cast Bless ad nauseautum, and you can still recruit mages from the fort(s)), can act as an expansion party, then that has to be done for the shere coolness factor. Black Spiders *are* cool, there is no question about that (I think), but just being cool has not been good enough for the steep price (except to eat elephants and giants, but those are not common enough usually).

[Amorphous]

Black Hunters cost 80 and Spider Riders 30 in the latest CBM.
In vanilla, it is 125 and 50 respectively.

At least with a minor nature bless, 4 Black Hunters do better than 10 Spider Riders. From what I can remember, 3 was a bit too close. The chance of losing one is much greater than with 4 and going with just 2 does not really work, so you need to reinforce before you can continue.

[Jarkko]

Right, Black Spiders are now 80 gold a piece. However, 36 resources makes it difficult to recruit more than a couple in the early turns.

[Amorphous]

You do not need more than a couple.

The first expansion party is reasonably made up of ordinary spiders, but as soon as you have taken an adjacent province or two, it is not hard to come up with the resources. I usually play Machaka with sloth 3 and manage it just fine.

[BigDaddy]

I just played Machaka in 2 player. I took production scales. I devoured the map. I don't think that there is another race that I have played that can make indy taking forces so quickly. I'm sure I could have fielded 5/turn if it was MP with indy commanders draining into my capital.

My setup might have been crappy in MP, however, because I chose a Lich to with just death magic and was racing to well of misery + tartarian gate. He never evem got out of prison before the hunter lord, 7 black hunters, and 53ish spider riders broke his main force. I was spreading across the ocean with the crazy cash and never -needed- a second castle.

The magic path was a gamble, because I could have gone with construction and then to flaming arrows. But, after the third turn, I could tell that even if he could field a force of mages with which to kill significant numbers of spiders, I strongly doubted he could hold many of his provinces while doing it. He did have some evo, but when I took a first castle I paused and gathered for 3 or 4 turns and had way too many spiders even for his paladin spearhead.

If I were him, I would have probably avoided that direct confrontation. But its hard in 2 player; I didn't have anything to do more important than concentrate on kicking his ***.

Or maybe I could have taken sever opponents of guard and conquered the world with their gems... especially if I could take out Ermor... how sweet thy gem site ermor...

I don't think we made it to turn 30.

[chrispedersen]

I'm pretty sure mindless units dissolve on turn 50 whether they are berserk or not.

I don't like to hire the sorceresses because the (also) cap-only sorcerers are so much better.

Vfb:

I am very sure that I have gone 75 with a berserk mindless. I may be wrong. But I'm sure =).

Secondly, I've seen a few instances where mindless units can route. For example, set one up with quickness, and boots of flying. If they get to the edge of the board on their first action I believe they will route ok.

[chrispedersen]

I just played Machaka in 2 player. I took production scales. I devoured the map. I don't think that there is another race that I have played that can make indy taking forces so quickly. I'm sure I could have fielded 5/turn if it was MP with indy commanders draining into my capital.

My setup might have been crappy in MP, however, because I chose a Lich to with just death magic and was racing to well of misery + tartarian gate. He never evem got out of prison before the hunter lord, 7 black hunters, and 53ish spider riders broke his main force. I was spreading across the ocean with the crazy cash and never -needed- a second castle.

The magic path was a gamble, because I could have gone with construction and then to flaming arrows. But, after the third turn, I could tell that even if he could field a force of mages with which to kill significant numbers of spiders, I strongly doubted he could hold many of his provinces while doing it. He did have some evo, but when I took a first castle I paused and gathered for 3 or 4 turns and had way too many spiders even for his paladin spearhead.

If I were him, I would have probably avoided that direct confrontation. But its hard in 2 player; I didn't have anything to do more important than concentrate on kicking his ***.

Or maybe I could have taken sever opponents of guard and conquered the world with their gems... especially if I could take out Ermor... how sweet thy gem site ermor...

I don't think we made it to turn 30.

Yah; two player is very different than mp. As you say you don't have to worry about flanks, multiple armies. He who destroys the other's main army first usually wins.

[chrispedersen]

You are paying far too much for too little gain. With the scales you have there, you should be able to hit 15+ provinces, as well as a couple of castles, the first year without any bless whatsoever.

I think Black Hunters are generally underestimated here on the boards - probably because past incarnations of CBM made the price discrepancy between them and ordinary spiders so large - but their strength lies mainly in the opening game. Machaka really has no problem there, so investing in a N9 bless that gives you little afterwards is not the best idea.

About 6 Black Hunters without any bless can take practically any indy, pretty much the same as your 3-4 N9 expansion parties. Add in a minor N4 and possibly E4 (the latter helps against largish numbers and might be something you want anyway) and you can shave off a couple of hunters.

Do not get me wrong, you will of course get a better expansion rate with N9 than without, but once the indies are gone, the benefit of the bless will be greatly reduced. Human oponents really do not find it much harder to deal with N9 hunters than unblessed ones.


Also, Machakan troops are certainly not resource intensive. Apart from the hoplite, the regular troops are all very resource cheap. The combination of very cheap archers and good ability to cast Flame Arrows is excellent. Since Machaka has access to both the nature and earth protection spells as well as Iron Bane, cheap troops without armour has an occasional use. Combine with Curse of Stones for more fun.

Lastly Sorceresses have f1e1d1 + 10%fedn and cost 110gp, so 110 for 5rp is more accurate.

I couldn't really disagree with you more. I'd really have to say.. *try it*.

I don't get the n9 blessing for the 14 regen. I don't get it for the additional protection.

I get it for the 99 morale. Machakan morale is not great. Berserk spiders will take, about 1 time in 4 provinces that non berserk units will not.

With small units ... losing even one unit will put you in the circumstance where you are taking morale checks or quit the field.

I get it - so you can expand with groups of 2-4 spiders - instead of 4-8. Which lets you send out an expansion party a turn instead of 2 in the first 4 turns.

So I view the N9 as critical especially if you wish to expand with units of 2-3 spiders.

The N9 bless is not what the opponent will have a problem dealing with. The issue is that you are sending out one expansion party a turn, *and not taking any losses*.

Whereas most non giant races will take attrition losses. This will mean on average that you will have about 25% more troops than an average nation, more experience as well as more provinces when you finally meet.


As for the resource intensive: I was thinking spiders and too lazy to fix the error.

As for sorceresses: Not with the specific scales I specified. Magic 3 = +2 rp.

I like earth - an minor earth bless works great, and I like it with the fetish (or other gods). I was just suggesting an alternate to the fetish.

[BigDaddy]

The hunters are awesome, and the knights are nice, but, really, the riders are all you need, plus the archer dies faster than the armored dude you get otherwise, and that takes the upkeep away faster, which leads to more spiders faster.

I just get this vision of spiders just flowing off the sacred mountaintop... ha, scales...

[Amorphous]

I couldn't really disagree with you more. I'd really have to say.. *try it*.

I don't get the n9 blessing for the 14 regen. I don't get it for the additional protection.

I get it for the 99 morale. Machakan morale is not great. Berserk spiders will take, about 1 time in 4 provinces that non berserk units will not.

With small units ... losing even one unit will put you in the circumstance where you are taking morale checks or quit the field.

I get it - so you can expand with groups of 2-4 spiders - instead of 4-8. Which lets you send out an expansion party a turn instead of 2 in the first 4 turns.

So I view the N9 as critical especially if you wish to expand with units of 2-3 spiders.

The N9 bless is not what the opponent will have a problem dealing with. The issue is that you are sending out one expansion party a turn, *and not taking any losses*.

Whereas most non giant races will take attrition losses. This will mean on average that you will have about 25% more troops than an average nation, more experience as well as more provinces when you finally meet.
First, I want to make two things clear, so that we understand each other.

1. I have tried it. I would not be making the claims I do, if I had not.

2. I assume that the game parameters are normal, e.g. indy strength is 5.


That said, I certainly cannot get N9 to work as well as you advertise. An expansion party of 2 spiders does not work very well at all. Even keeping to what seems to be easier indies, you will lose a spider more often than not. Essentially, such parties can capture one province. 4 N4 spiders perform a lot better. 4 spiders without any bless also perform better than the 2 N9 spiders as long as you keep to easier indies.

3 N9 spiders can take pretty much the same provinces as 4 N4. Thanks to the berserk the N9 spiders will take some provinces that the N4 ones would lose, but these are the same provinces where you lose a spider. I also have a slightly higher attrition rate among the N9 spiders, but it is slight enough that I am willing to write it off as natural variance. The N9 party performs a bit better than the N4 party.

4 N9 spiders can, with very few exceptions, take the same provinces as 6 N4, but with a significantly higher attrition rate, so the latter group clearly performs better.

8 Black Hunters without any bless whatsoever perform better across the board than 4 N9 do.


You will definitely lose spiders - even with N9 - if you keep sending them out in groups of 2-4. Same goes if you just send out groups of 4. If you want to go without losses (apart from really bad luck, of course), you are going to have to send out groups of 5-6. If you go with N4 you need 7-8.

If you have some special trick that allows you better performance than this, I can try it out, but the above is what I can manage consistently.

Again, I want to make clear that the N9 bless certainly makes the Black Hunters perform better than without it. The investment is, however, not worth the cost in my opinion. The difference between N4 and N9 is at least 160 points. You could spend 80 of those on production and thereby get an extra spider or two per turn, which makes your expansion very close to N9, and you still have 80 points left to spend.

[KissBlade]

Are we talking about CBM or non?

[BigDaddy]

Yes, CBM.

Why is did you have something to say about non-CBM?

I assume that since things cost half as much in CBM that the cost of the spiders made it necessary to take scales.

[Ink]

with CBM:

the reduced cost of spider riders has made them available for using as a workhorse unit. Machaka can depend on them rather than requiring something like the Colossal Fetish (something which will only become quickly useless as the game moves into midgame).

thus, DONT take a colossal fetish, rather go for a rainbow to provide paths/combinations needed for Machaka to have a chance in late game, and really good scales for Machaka to recruit the hell out of spider riders/knights.

Crone:
E1S3N4D4 (or something like that, give S for diversity and the other paths for missing combinations to forge key items)
Dom6-7 (good dom for good scales)
O3P3H3L-1G3M1 (max income dom)
asleep

recruit spider riders/knights and build lots of forts to boost reasearch (this is why you have such good scales)
research site searching
research evo to 5 or 6 for battle magic
research const to 8 for artifacts
research conj

havn't really tried this out in any real gameplay (ie MP), but it looks like the tack I would take with Machaka now.

[BigDaddy]

You think I could squeek it out with my favorite, an imprisoned astral rainbow master lich?
That is my SP favorite.

For 2player, I ussually go with somebody that uses indemic gems and has lots of that path. Preferably immortal, a titan, or immobile. Which seems less appropriate for MP.

I almost never choose an SC awake pretender, because you seem to lose your advantage by turn 20 or so.

I actually had the fetish set up as an astral somewhat rainbow mage (imprisoned).

However, I'm seeing more and more that by turn 20 some people can already be killed... Well, I ussually have a PK army at that point as any nation and essentially at any province size... But, I suppose it can happen to anyone. I find it's difficult to have an insurmountable rush before turn 20 and after that some of the provinces start to pay off.

I think people forget that all those provinces don't instantly pay themselves off, they have a rate of return. And despite what people always say, that they have an army design were their stuff doesnt' die to 'most indies,' the fact is that I know you take losses, 1 or 2... whatever. You take em as Jotenheim, you take'em with serpent cataphracts, with knights of various kinds...

[chrispedersen]

Again, I want to make clear that the N9 bless certainly makes the Black Hunters perform better than without it. The investment is, however, not worth the cost in my opinion. The difference between N4 and N9 is at least 160 points. You could spend 80 of those on production and thereby get an extra spider or two per turn, which makes your expansion very close to N9, and you still have 80 points left to spend.

I don't believe there is any difference on the scales. Check my scales settings.. do you really want to buy luck with order?

with an imprisoned N3 pretender, n9 = 6 picks, 21*7 = 147 points.
n4 = 7 points. Difference is 140.

However, if you are taking a rainbow crone (another favorite of mine), n4= 42 points. Difference = 105, plus the cost of the lord of fertility.

As for .. tricks. You absolutely do have to choose provinces differently. Small numbers of cavalry, are easy spider prey.
anything with small damage out put... wolf warriors. Are good choices. Provinces with three types of troops.


with a non human blesser (ie spider) you don't care about most archers.

Anyway, we agree on most details. After thats its play style...

[Ink]

I was just playing with their spider knights in SP testing.

results: they are not going to cut it offensively
reason: they are size 5 with str 10 and no high damage attacks
why this matters: each spider will probably be attacking a different square, such that they can't gang up on and kill single units.
what to do: use them defensively. the spider knights are extra robust, and their webspit is a straight defensive tool, plus their size helps them congest up the battlefield. set spider knights to fire closest, place tons of machaka's cheap archers behind them.

also, given this analysis, blessing is definitely a bad idea with Machaka. The Black Hunters are but slightly improved spider riders, damage wise (11 vs 10 str, 18 vs 16 dam spider bite). plus they are cap only, and there are no sacred mages to benefit from something like a D bless. bad bad bad. Machaka is a scales nation only.

[chrispedersen]

I don't see the problem. spiders destroy indies just fine.
spiders with mage support kill SCS even better.

I also don't like paying upkeep on machaka archers.
When attacked you can pop out a lot of archers fast, and move to where needed with mapmove 2.

[BigDaddy]

I was just playing with their spider knights in SP testing.

results: they are not going to cut it offensively
reason: they are size 5 with str 10 and no high damage attacks
why this matters: each spider will probably be attacking a different square, such that they can't gang up on and kill single units.
what to do: use them defensively. the spider knights are extra robust, and their webspit is a straight defensive tool, plus their size helps them congest up the battlefield. set spider knights to fire closest, place tons of machaka's cheap archers behind them.

also, given this analysis, blessing is definitely a bad idea with Machaka. The Black Hunters are but slightly improved spider riders, damage wise (11 vs 10 str, 18 vs 16 dam spider bite). plus they are cap only, and there are no sacred mages to benefit from something like a D bless. bad bad bad. Machaka is a scales nation only.

They work fine early game, because they have death poison, and enough str to kill undead, although, I'd probably prefer javelins and hoplites for undead... at least undead that webs and priests had trouble with.

Mid-game they make a nice wall to hide behind and cast spells.

Although I haven't really played multiplayer late game, I assume that they get mowed down by SC, because their skills aren't that high, their damage is Okish, but only 1 per square.

Some nations have troops that can kill some less SCs, such as Pythium emerald guards or serpent catphracts, giants with javelins... giants with javelins will kill most stuff...

I assume though, that picking will be slim for killing SCs this way in late game, and you'll have to have some size army and mages, or an SC control unit.

[Amorphous]

I don't believe there is any difference on the scales. Check my scales settings.. do you really want to buy luck with order?
I do not understand your answer at all. As far as I can tell your scales involved production 1, so going two steps further would be production 3.

Now even apart from that, 160 points is 160 points however you spend it. Luck and order is not a bad combination when you have a sizeable empire, which Machaka should achieve rather quickly. Going from imprisoned to sleeping is just 100 points and nets you about 2 more years of active pretender. Sleeping to awake is 150 points.

160 points is a lot and any such investment should give you a lot, otherwise it is just a bad investment.


with an imprisoned N3 pretender, n9 = 6 picks, 21*7 = 147 points.
n4 = 7 points. Difference is 140.

However, if you are taking a rainbow crone (another favorite of mine), n4= 42 points. Difference = 105, plus the cost of the lord of fertility.
The base cost of magic pics is 8, not 7. You are probably confusing it with the base cost of dominion. 160 points is the minimum difference possible with Machaka. And that requires you to take the Lord of Fertility. Any other pretender and the difference get larger.

As for .. tricks. You absolutely do have to choose provinces differently. Small numbers of cavalry, are easy spider prey.
anything with small damage out put... wolf warriors. Are good choices. Provinces with three types of troops.


with a non human blesser (ie spider) you don't care about most archers.
Well, this does not differ significantly from how I do it, so my opinion remains the same.

What I will add is that you have incomplete intelligence during the expansion phase. This is bad for small numbers of spiders, because lots of troops, more or less regardless of which kind, present a very much increased risk of losing spiders.

If you send out parties of 4- Black Hunters, you will lose some of them, even if you keep away from what seems to be the harder indies.


Anyway, we agree on most details. After thats its play style...
Well, especially in CBM I prefer sloth 3. Spider Riders are good enough to quickly expand into most indies and groups of Black Hunters handle the rest. This gives me 15-20 provinces and a couple of castles the first year as well as giving me a lot more points to play with for the pretender.



Ink:
Evaluating Black Hunters through Spider Knights is not a good idea - they are very different. Just compare the performance of equally large groups of both of them to see what I mean.

I happen to agree that Black Hunters do not warrant any big bless. They manage quite well without any bless during expansion and they are very good deterrents against some rushes. Later in the game there are too many counters to them for them to be anything other than specialty units.