HeatvsCold - started

[13lackGu4rd]

ok we're finally running with it.
Game: HeatvsCold
Diplomacy: 3v3
Teams:
Hot:
Graeme Dice - Abysia
BigDaddy - C'tis
Hoplosternum - Lanka
Cold:
Trumanator - Niefelheim
Frozen Lama - Caelum
13lackGu4rd - Helheim
Map: Small Divide 3v3
Mods: CBM 1.6

[SnallTrippin]

I'd be interested but I'm just learning my way around MP.

[Ironhawk]

Can niefel and van/hel blood sacrifice? If not that would mean the heat nations would have a much easier time pushing their temperature dom onto the other team.

Also, keep in mind that Wolven Winter changes a targetted prov to cold but there is no spell that does the reverse for heat (tho there are globals for both).

[Gregstrom]

Van can certainly blood sac, and I'm not 100% sure but I think niefel can. Niefel and Aby both spread their temperature outside their dominion anyway, IIRC.

For that matter, Niefel and Van are competent blood nations so I'm not sure having Lanka and Mictlan on the same team would be that much of an issue.

[13lackGu4rd]

Can niefel and van/hel blood sacrifice? If not that would mean the heat nations would have a much easier time pushing their temperature dom onto the other team.

Also, keep in mind that Wolven Winter changes a targetted prov to cold but there is no spell that does the reverse for heat (tho there are globals for both).

yes both Vanheim and Helheim can blood sacrifice, but their hunters aren't really cost effective, but it still a very valid strategy for them. yes Wolven Winter is a bit problematic, but keep in mind that the cold global, Illwinter I assume, is Niefelheim only, which will be in the game but it's not as accessible as the general Second Sun global. however there are battlefield spells that cause both heat and cold, so I wouldn't worry about that too much, especially since on paper the Heat team has stronger nations than the Cold team...

Van can certainly blood sac, and I'm not 100% sure but I think niefel can. Niefel and Aby both spread their temperature outside their dominion anyway, IIRC.

For that matter, Niefel and Van are competent blood nations so I'm not sure having Lanka and Mictlan on the same team would be that much of an issue.

yes Niefelheim can also blood sacrifice. yes Niefel and Van are competent blood nations, but you can't compare them to the real blood powers in Mictlan and Lanka. the later have very cheap and cost effective blood hunters, unique blood summons, etc. Niefel and Van rely on the standard blood goodies but with cheaper and less cost effective hunters(Skratti and Vans mainly) and neither have unique blood summons. also Mictlan and Lanka are very well off with just construction and blood researched, both Niefel and Van need the other research schools a lot more, so you can't just go all in blood with them...

so with both Mictlan and Lanka on the same team, the other team won't get a fair chance(if a chance at all) to go for the blood uniques(Ice and Arch Devils, Heliophagus, Demon Lords, etc). hence I think limiting it to just 1 pure blood power will be good enough, and give the other team a chance to at least get some of the blood uniques, especially if the Heat team gets Lanka instead of Mictlan, which will give them harder access to the standard blood uniques but give them Lanka unique summons.

the way I see it the Heat team is more like a slumbering giant that tries to brute force its way in while the Cold team is like a cluster grenade that explodes all over the place with flying Eagles(Caelum) and air drops(Cloud Trapezing Vanjarls and Teleporting Gygjas).

[Septimius Severus]

I like the concept of themes and more team games are very much needed.

Heat (fire & blood?) vs cold (water/air) could make for some very steamy action. :) One team might have cold resistant units, the other fire resistant units. It would be an interesting challenge to see fire vs. water go head-to-head. If your splitting the blood as a secondary theme for each team that might even things a bit. Using appropriately themed pretenders might also assist in protecting each sides unique advantages, that is if you want each side to have unique advantages. Once you've refined and crystalized the concept, I'd enjoy such a matchup. Love to observe it as well.

[BigDaddy]

I don't know... I'm surprised you think that Neifel, Van, Hel is so marginal in comparison to two blood nations (or three with Abysia) or and C'tis. I don't claim to know ctis well, but would play it in this game, if the theme looks well developed and fair.

[13lackGu4rd]

while Niefel at least has a somewhat cost effective hunter in the Skratti(especially the B3 ones), it's still a lot more expensive than 3 small H1 Mictlan/Lanka sacred hunters. Van and Hel pretty much have the Vanjarls, which are very not cost efficient when you're looking at blood hunting alone. yes it does fit into their strategies as a whole, as seen in Baalz's Helheim guide for example, but compare unit to unit you'll see the huge difference.

Abysia, while could be considered as a somewhat blood nation, only has capital mages with Blood access, and neither of them are sacred, so less cost efficient, and much tougher to maintain in the long run. C'tis doesn't have native access to blood at all, they do have access to Lamia Queens which can get them into blood, but that's no different than many other non blood nations...

Septimius, the whole Fire+Blood vs Water+Air looks good on paper, however I don't see it happening for the Cold side. Caelum fits perfectly, but what about the rest...? Helheim is more of a death nation than an air nation, and partial blood. Vanheim is more of an air nation, sure, but again partial blood. Niefel is ugh... water+death if I had to put them anywhere and ignore their blood element. it seems that not enough nations are really focused on air magic, and some of those that are, Fomoria for example, don't fit the cold theme at all.

also, since blood magic is so powerful having it as a theme for 1 team and not for the other just cries imbalance in my opinion. Mictlan and Lanka are considered as super powers in EA because of their ridiculous blood access and summons. Sauromatia is also an EA powerhouse because of its versatility. blood gives it a lot of this versatility, as the place to go to once you've exhausted the Androphag Archers route.

another thing that goes against the non blood nations in this case is that the other main alternative to blood would be death. death summons are mostly undeads, which are cold immune but very vulnerable to fire, especially the "holy fire" types that does double/triple damage to undeads such as the Holy Scourge, Flambeau, etc. so the Heat team has a monopoly for blood magic and the perfect counters for the undead, what else does the Cold team have in their arsenal?

[Fantomen]

Skrattis are quite cost effective blood hunters actually, as they are upkeep free in werewolf form.

[Micah]

No, the skratti upkeep exploit was patched.

[BigDaddy]

I was talking about 'who' is a powerful nation *not merely blood... if you were replying to me.

[Fantomen]

No, the skratti upkeep exploit was patched.

Aha, good to know.

[Hoplosternum]

Death is a pretty nice school too and Helheim is good there. Fire is a counter to death. But most things have counters and it's not that great as to neutralise death completely. Fire protection objects are forgeable by Helheim and Vanheim.

EA Vanheim is fairly weak, especially in the company of Mictlan, Lanka etc. It is not really a great bless nation, very capital dependent mage wise and no real go to unit or commander. It's an OK all rounder but adds little to the team IMHO. I would replace them with Fomoria who are strong in air and death. Or Tir if you don't want another giant nation.

The cold team are very none Astral though. I don't think Ulm fits as they are more fire than W or A. Maybe Maverni could be added? Not really cold either but do have the Wild/Barbarian theme of the rest. And they do get water magic on some druids. And the druids give astral to cover that weakness. Maverni are likely to do better in a team game where they have others to fend off rushes.

I would keep Himmon out of it. Mictlan & Lanka are likely to give the hot team a quick enough start and open up plenty of Thug/SC options without making it too easy for them. I am not a fan of Abysia especially in EA and MA but they do fit. Kalisa and C'Tis are both good nations, especially with the two blood powerhouses to protect them early.

Mictlan, Lanka, C'tis & Kalisa vs Niefel, Helheim, Caelum & Fomoria/Tir or Marverni would be an interesting match up I think.

[13lackGu4rd]

well, the problem is that neither Fomoria nor Marverni nor TNN have any cold preference. Ulm apparently has cold1 preference which is why I added it to the cold teams... I agree that EA Vanheim is pretty mediocre, MA is much better thanks to both Vans(good choice for bless) and Skinshifters(good choice for non bless) but I think the Mage roster remained the same, so still not that great...

yeah, the Astral thing is 1 of those balance issues that I was worried about in this concept, but outside of ditching it altogether I don't see a way to give both teams Astral access, as the Cold team seems to lack it altogether.

anyway, so much talk in here, yet nobody yet volunteered to actually try it out :(
as I said, this trial game will be for a 3v3, which is why the hot team will be limited to either Mictlan or Lanka along with Abysia(just too thematic to give up) and either C'tis or Kailasa, while the cold team will have Niefelheim, Caelum and either Helheim, Vanheim or Ulm(most likely Helheim). for balance sake it might as well be Lanka, Abysia and C'tis vs Caelum, Niefelheim and Helheim, that way nobody really has strong Astral access, just a little for Abysia and C'tis, and the Cold team will have other things going for it.

so with that in mind, anybody wishes to volunteer so we can finally get this game rolling?

[Gandalf Parker]

anyway, so much talk in here, yet nobody yet volunteered to actually try it out :(
As happens so often. Such absolutely known truths flying around. :)

IMHO Just choose one and set up your game. If anyone says the winner is "obvious" then let them join and show it. It rarely happens. Especially in team games which are too few. A team that plays as a team can beat pretty much any loose rabble. And some nations that are frowned on have abilities that only shine in team play.

[13lackGu4rd]

well, this was supposed to be a setup for a MP game, with me being the admin and all that... but before I put it on llamaserver, as llamabeast suggested in his FAQ, I'm trying to get players interested first... so, to clarify:

Heat vs Cold game
era: early
team game: 3v3- Heat team has Abysia, chooses either Mictlan or Lanka and either C'tis or Kailasa. Cold team has Niefelheim and Caelum, with either Helheim, Vanheim or Ulm.
Map: The Small Divide, with fixed starting positions(not sure how to do it myself but it shouldn't be too hard).
mods: CBM1.6
diplomacy: should be straight forward, being a 3v3 game...
anything else you guys need to know?

if you wish to join please sign up with just Heat or Cold preference, no specific nations yet. once I see who our players are I'll try to put the puzzle together in the most balanced way I find, at least on paper...

[Illuminated One]

How would the hosting schedule be? I'd be interested if it's a bit slower paced. I always like to say things like the flame shall cleanse you or I'm cold ... so cold when I'm dying, but only seldomly get the chance, so Heat, preferably Abysia.

[Trumanator]

Perhaps a separate game thread?

[13lackGu4rd]

How would the hosting schedule be? I'd be interested if it's a bit slower paced. I always like to say things like the flame shall cleanse you or I'm cold ... so cold when I'm dying, but only seldomly get the chance, so Heat, preferably Abysia.

as far as hosting schedule goes, the early turns will be as fast as we get all the turns in, no need to stretch them as there's not much to do that early in any game... afterward it'll be more relaxed, basic 24 hours or so but extensions won't be a problem. when the majority feels we should switch to 36/48 hour schedule we'll do that, no point predetermining it in m opinion.

and Trumanator, I might as well do that if I see that the current thread doesn't get the game going, give it a little longer though :cool:

[Trumanator]

I suggested a new thread because it makes organization far easier. If this is going to be a recruitment thread though me and Frozenlama would like to join the cold team.

[chrispedersen]

what else does the Cold team have in their arsenal?

Ulm forging for Niefle recruitable SCs.

[Trumanator]

Tbh, unless you have both Lanka AND Mictlan I don't see the "Hot" team beating Nief/Caelum/Helheim. EA Aby isn't particularly impressive, and Ctis and Kailasa are decent but not powerhouses.

[13lackGu4rd]

but are Caelum and Helheim powerhouses...?
Mictlan/Lanka vs Niefelheim is the powerhouse matchup Imho.
btw Chris,can I count on you for this game? perhaps on the heat team seeing as Trumanator and Llama wish to be on the cold team

[chrispedersen]

I've given up new games (of anything) for Lent. So, if you want to wait till Easter, sure. Although I'm getting kind of tired of mictlan =).

[Trumanator]

EA Caelum is definitely a powerhouse. Thunderstrike spam + EK SCs = awesomesauce.

Oh, and its Lama, 1 L

[BigDaddy]

I've given up new games (of anything) for Lent. So, if you want to wait till Easter, sure. Although I'm getting kind of tired of mictlan =).

The pretender of Mictlan wants to drink the blood of your virgins!

[BigDaddy]

I'm still paying attention, I'm looking at C'tis.

[13lackGu4rd]

ok so we got Trumanator and Frozen Lama on the cold team, BigDaddy on the hot team(preferably C'tis).
that makes 4(including me), who wants to be the last 2?

[BigDaddy]

It looks like we may need someone to set the map up for us... depending on victory conditions.

[Hoplosternum]

I agree that the Hots should have both Mictlan & Lanka. If you want to dilute them a little then increase the game to 4 v 4.

I think that Helheim, Niefel & Caelum is a very strong team. Not necessarilly tougher than Mictlan & Lanka plus one other but probably stronger than if the hots have just one of those bless/blood powers. Blood takes a while to get going and all those three Colds have very good expansion even without the double+ blessing of Mictlan & Lanka.

Ulm is a viable option for the forging for Niefel. But I wouldn't give up Helheim for them as Helheim are far more interesting to play and can blood sacrifice, and a blood inspired dom push by the hots is a danger.

I would like to play. But I don't want to be stuck with Abysia no matter how thematic they are :p I am very happy to play Mictlan or Lanka, but only if the other is playing as well. I don't want to be the single great blessed blood hope of the hot team :)

I would be very happy to play any of the Cold powers.

But I am also happy not to play, in which case I can set up the map placements for you if tell me which map you are going to use.

[13lackGu4rd]

well, if you guys insist that Niefelheim+Caelum is that strong a team, personally I didn't deem Caelum as a powerhouse, than I guess we can have both Mictlan and Lanka... would be a shame to lose Abysia though, as it's the only Heat3 nation, as opposed to both Niefelheim and Caelum that have Cold3. without Abysia the Heat team will be mainly Heat2 with Mictlan's Heat1, not too thematic, and this is supposed to be a theme game after all...

so Hoplos, you can join the Heat team. so now we only need 1 more player. I think I'll join the Cold team along with Trumanator and Frozen Lama, so BigDaddy and Hoplos, if any of you guys can get someone to complete the Heat team than please do so ;)

as for the map, I was thinking of "Small Divide" with fixed starting positions, each team on a different side/island. so rushing won't be too viable, should make for a longer and more interesting game in my opinion, without uber bless rushes(that both teams are capable of) deciding the outcome... but if you guys prefer a different map than we can do that too, I'm not fixed on it or anything, just looks like a good choice.

[Trumanator]

Umm, anyone who doesn't play mict w/H3 is doing it wrong. Mict/Lanka/Aby would actually be a fairly strong team since both mict and aby can blood sac, making it hard for the cold team to push dom.

[BigDaddy]

I was really going to play this game for flavor and to use Ctis. I'm already playing another game with Abysia (LA though... which is a lot different).

[13lackGu4rd]

I was really going to play this game for flavor and to use Ctis. I'm already playing another game with Abysia (LA though... which is a lot different).

well, if you insist on going for C'tis instead of Abysia than I wouldn't stop you... but yes, LA Abysia is a lot different than EA Abysia, and yes I know that EA Abysia is considered pretty weak, but along Mictlan and Lanka, and against Cold nations only, I don't think it's that bad...

[BigDaddy]

Trash talking EA Abysia can be fun, but they'll still probably trash someone fairly early with armor and fireballs (if they were in this game!)

[Trumanator]

EA Aby is fine early game. Then you realize that you have no counter to their thugs w/fire res.

[chrispedersen]

Umm, anyone who doesn't play mict w/H3 is doing it wrong. Mict/Lanka/Aby would actually be a fairly strong team since both mict and aby can blood sac, making it hard for the cold team to push dom.

I *usually* play mictlan with heat 3. But you don't have to. That being said, this will be an interesting game.

Whomever the niefle player is, as he spreads cold dominion naturally may well want to consider taking an abnormally high dominion, to help offset the ability of mictlan/lanka to blood sacrifice.

Still: Usually with a double+ bless mictlans scales are crappy - and you usually do not *want* to push them strenuosly. Waste of slaves; plus you're pushing your own crappy scales, on your own dominion.

Quite to the contrary. Since abysia doesn't *need* a bless, and can still blood sac, I would set abysia front and center and let him push dominion like mad.

Have mictlan and or lanka supply the blood knives, and blood slaves and have abysia build temples. By turn 6 you could be getting 20+ temple checks a turn and by turn 12 50+. Thats 20 candles every turn starting on turn 6. On a small map thats pretty devestating.

Combine with Rain of toads on Niefles capitol...

PS: Niefle is strong. I don't think its Lanka + mictlan strong - those are two very strong bless nations; this will make for a VERY interesting bless rush.

[Graeme Dice]

I'd definitely be interested in playing as Abysia if this game goes forwards.

[BigDaddy]

Even dbl blessed niefl can't rush abby EA (heat cloud) infantry in hot dominion. It kills other nations, much less neifl. But, what am I saying, I want to play Ctis!

[Trumanator]

I'm not saying that Nief can kill both, I just think people were vastly underestimating Caelum.

[Frozen Lama]

I kind of agree that both lanka and mict rocks like crazy. If graeme dice wants to play aby, let him. then big daddy takes ctis and then hoplo gets lanka- which tops nief easy.

also, judging just by join date, team hot has more experienced people, so it sounds balanced.

btw @blackguard you cool with playing helheim? i'll take caelum and truman wants nief

[13lackGu4rd]

so, it seems like we've finally got ourselves a full game ;)
yeah Lama, no problem for me to take Helheim, as I said I'll take whatever is left after all the others have chosen, and these teams look pretty good... so we've got Lanka, C'tis and Abysia vs Niefelheim, Caelum and Helheim.

all we need now is for someone to set fixed starting locations on the map "Small Divide", or if nobody knows how to than perhaps a new map to fit the 3v3 setting. than I can put the game up on Llamaserver.

[BigDaddy]

You can change the first post to describe the game, such as settings, and map. You can change the title to ask for someone to mod the map. Say, (players recruited, need map modded) and someone will probably come along. With the setting set up, the teams can mess around with their pretender design, and eventually huddle, mess with their tender a little more and then send it in. By that time we'll probably have someone to mod the map.

With teams, you could probably do some DAR conferences if it was fine with everyone. Otherwise, PMs are fine.

And, I joinded with Dom2. I never played alot of MP, my experience in multiplayer has been almost all 2player (PKing). I also played vanilla for a while before CBM, so I make some mistakes that an old dom3 CBM veteran might not, plus I'm rusty from Dom2 to begin with. No promises, except I like action... Which is why I insist that there aren't really any nations (especially non-bless nations) that do it like Abysia. ("Uh-oh, his rps flatlined, am I ready?")

[Trumanator]

Again, I think a separate thread would be best simply to make organization and such easier.

[BigDaddy]

I don't think it matters either way, because he can completely redo the first post and change the title. But, maybe I'm just not as familiar with the dom3 forums culture.

[BigDaddy]

I hope Hippo is fine with Abby and Ctis, he seemed to really want Mictlan. Not that I blame him, but Ctis definitely brings some stuff to the table.

[Frozen Lama]

btw, i would like to use llamabeast's new mod. it needs some playtesting, and could make it more fun

[Frozen Lama]

about small divide- i would suggest that everyone run a couple test games on it before we start. elmokki's maps are know for missing connections and other weird stuff. elmokki is quick to fix them though, so just a little testing

[BigDaddy]

I'll run plenty of tests as soon as the game specs come in. :whistling: :twiddles thumbs:

[Hoplosternum]

I kind of agree that both lanka and mict rocks like crazy. If graeme dice wants to play aby, let him. then big daddy takes ctis and then hoplo gets lanka- which tops nief easy.

also, judging just by join date, team hot has more experienced people, so it sounds balanced.

btw @blackguard you cool with playing helheim? i'll take caelum and truman wants nief

Nooooooo ;) As I said I didn't want to play Lanka (or Mictlan) if the other was not in the game.

It may be that Lanka is better than Niefel and that the teams are roughly balanced. But Blood Nations and double bless rushing are all skills that need to be learned. And I don't have those skills.

I have not played Niefel in mp and not seen much of them in mp. As for Lanka I have played them once and it was a disaster! I never had a chance to start a blood economy and my sacreds died in unimpressive droves. Never played EA Mictlan, but I did give LA Mictlan a go with again very poor results. So while I like Blood nations in theory it does not mean that I am any good with them :) And I rarely try double bless strategies or try to rush opponents within the first year. So I have no experience their either.

In a team with only Mictlan or Lanka that nation must be played well, especially at the beginning, and I am simply not experienced enough with the sort of strategies needed to take on that responsibility. If I did the Hot team would be at a serious disadvantage.

Therefore I am going to stand aside from this game. I am still available to do the map placings if you need me too.

[BigDaddy]

I think Abysia plays this role. It is terribly hard to defy Abysia for most of the first 2 years if you're a cold nation... Fine, I'll be Mictlan.

[13lackGu4rd]

what you seem to be missing Hoplosternum is the map we plan to play on. Small Divide does not make for a good double bless rushing type of game. especially if it does have some pathing issues as suggested here. therefore neither Mictlan nor Lanka, nor Niefelheim and Helheim for that matter, are required to go for a dual bless sacred rush. with that in mind you can play the only pure blood nation(be it Mictlan or Lanka, doesn't really matter) and have plenty of time for a good blood economy, heck you might even get decent scales for a change, for instance, ever try Mictlan with Order and Growth instead of Turmoil and Death? Turmoil and Death will still be valid options obviously, for an all in blood game, but Order+Growth can give you some diversity from the pure blood game if that's what you'll want.

now this is for everyone, I made this map choice because it doesn't allow for some stupid dual bless rushes that EA is so famous for... instead I prefer a bit of a longer game despite the relatively small map, so the 3v3 mentality will have a chance to really kick in, and hopefully make for an interesting game. therefore when evaluating the nations you have to keep in mind the game settings, mainly the map. so calm down people, we're in for hopefully a long and fun ride!

[Septimius Severus]

now this is for everyone, I made this map choice because it doesn't allow for some stupid dual bless rushes that EA is so famous for... instead I prefer a bit of a longer game despite the relatively small map, so the 3v3 mentality will have a chance to really kick in, and hopefully make for an interesting game. therefore when evaluating the nations you have to keep in mind the game settings, mainly the map. so calm down people, we're in for hopefully a long and fun ride!

I agree with you on this. In so many games (FFA and some team games as well), noobs and even intermediate level players find themselves eliminated quickly by more experienced players, by rushes or rush strategies, my maps that are designed for almost immediate combat without much chance for build up (or are not designed with teams in mind), research, learning, team strategizing, communication, team bonding and so forth. It's a difficult balance, finding an existing map (custom or random maps do allow more control) that allows this while keeping the provinces per player reasonable enough as to avoid an extreme amount of end game MM.

If you need any more players to complete the 3x3, let me know. I would particularly enjoying playing in any theme based or RPG team game (to explore the concept more) where each team (as with nations) have their unique advantages and disadvantages (water vs land, giants vs humans, path vs path). As always I am available as an alternate also in any team game that needs a player (in support of the team concept).

[Hoplosternum]

what you seem to be missing Hoplosternum is the map we plan to play on. Small Divide does not make for a good double bless rushing type of game. especially if it does have some pathing issues as suggested here. therefore neither Mictlan nor Lanka, nor Niefelheim and Helheim for that matter, are required to go for a dual bless sacred rush. with that in mind you can play the only pure blood nation(be it Mictlan or Lanka, doesn't really matter) and have plenty of time for a good blood economy, heck you might even get decent scales for a change, for instance, ever try Mictlan with Order and Growth instead of Turmoil and Death? Turmoil and Death will still be valid options obviously, for an all in blood game, but Order+Growth can give you some diversity from the pure blood game if that's what you'll want.

now this is for everyone, I made this map choice because it doesn't allow for some stupid dual bless rushes that EA is so famous for... instead I prefer a bit of a longer game despite the relatively small map, so the 3v3 mentality will have a chance to really kick in, and hopefully make for an interesting game. therefore when evaluating the nations you have to keep in mind the game settings, mainly the map. so calm down people, we're in for hopefully a long and fun ride!

Well you have won me over. If you still have a gap then I will play lanka :)

[13lackGu4rd]

yeah I still counted on you Hoplosternum, thanks for changing your mind ;)
thx for the offer Septimius Severus, seems like we're full now but if anybody has to drop for any reason than you'll be my go to guy for a sub.

so, does anybody know how to put fixed starting positions on a map? if so than can someone please do so for the map Small Divide? each team on a different side, powerhouse nation(Lanka and Niefelheim) in the middle perhaps with the other 2 at the north and south of their respective islands.

[Frozen Lama]

Well actually i think we should let teams decide where they want the teams placed.

[BigDaddy]

How exciting.

[Septimius Severus]

so, does anybody know how to put fixed starting positions on a map? if so than can someone please do so for the map Small Divide? each team on a different side, powerhouse nation(Lanka and Niefelheim) in the middle perhaps with the other 2 at the north and south of their respective islands.

Specified or special starts can be added to most maps quite easily. Many maps also come with suggested or preset starting locations. Where these are, is dependent upon the map makers vision and whether the map was designed for general FFA, tournament elimination, team play, etc and the number of players. This info is in the .map file and may be indicated elsewhere.

Placing your own though allows an admin and players to turn most any map into a "team" map. Deciding where these may be though (there are certain factors that need to be taken into account) can be a lot of work in and of itself, especially on a large map or a map that was not designed for team play from the start.

The starting locations may be part of the admins vision for the game, or can be placed by a neutral third party (like the mapmaker). Once these starting locations have been identified, where each team and nation starts can be decided by the admin, left to the teams, or even decided at random (flip of a coin so to speak). Good luck with the game.

[Frozen Lama]

So Blackguard are you doing anything about getting this started? attrition might start happening if this takes too long

[militarist]

That's true, about attrition. I read this thread with attention, but it would be good to see in a first post which nations are already taken.

[13lackGu4rd]

all nations are taken, still haven't found anyone who told me that he knows how to add fixed starting locations for a map. as soon as I find that person we'll get the game going.

[Graeme Dice]

Oh, I can do that. Unless you don't want the players to know where the starting locations are of course.

[Frozen Lama]

oh really? wish you woulda spoken up sooner. lol

if you could, how about you just set the locs, then post a pic of the map with the starts marked on it so everyone knows

[13lackGu4rd]

well, starting positions could be known for everyone, not too much harm done that way, especially considering the map layout. and again, this is a pilot(as in test) game to try out this new concept of mine. if it works well and the game is good and fun, than we can expand it into more players, different maps, different eras, etc. so for a first time it will be fine...

so Graeme, if you can do it than please set up each team on a different side, say Cold on the left and Hot on the right, like in air conditioners :P the powerhouses: Lanka/Mictlan(whichever hot team chooses) and Niefelheim on their respective centers, the other 2 on the north and south, doesn't really matter which is where as long as you tell everyone how you set it up. than give us all the map and upload it to llamaserver(or I will after I receive it) and we can finally start ;)

[Graeme Dice]

Here's the start locations that I think will work.

[Frozen Lama]

well there is obviously a broken connection south of aby's cap.

but otherwise, i won't complain. they could be more balanced, but i want to start. can you post it as a map file?

[Graeme Dice]

Rename the .txt to .map. We can't upload .map files without renaming them.

[Frozen Lama]

looks good to me. create the game now BlackGuard?

[Graeme Dice]

I fixed two provinces that were missing connections to neighbours and re-uploaded the file.

[13lackGu4rd]

that's great, thanks Graeme. did you upload it to llamaserver as well? if not than I'll do it, no problem.
and yes, it seems like we can finally start ;)

[13lackGu4rd]

this must be a noobish problem but even when I change the file name to .map it still remains a text file, and when browsing it becomes a .map.txt file. no idea how to actually change the file type instead of just its name :o

[Graeme Dice]

A file's name is its type, so just don't let it have the .txt extension whenever you rename it.

[13lackGu4rd]

A file's name is its type, so just don't let it have the .txt extension whenever you rename it.

apparently not, still appears as a text file... here is the screen shot from within my maps folder inside dom3 folder.

[Gregstrom]

Click Tools > Folder Options...

Go to the View Tab.

Make sure 'Hide Extensions for known file types' is unchecked. If it's not that, then swear a lot.

Also, XP has a tendency to remember what programs you use to access certain file types and display icons accordingly. Maybe it's that?

[13lackGu4rd]

Click Tools > Folder Options...

Go to the View Tab.

Make sure 'Hide Extensions for known file types' is unchecked. If it's not that, then swear a lot.

Also, XP has a tendency to remember what programs you use to access certain file types and display icons accordingly. Maybe it's that?

thanks, that worked like a charm :angel
I knew it was something dumb like that, gotta hate stupid Micro**** and their useless defaults :doh:

[Gregstrom]

XP is primarily designed for suit-wearing people who will strip extensions from files because 'the .ppt ending made it look untidy, and I wanted to impress my boss with the end-to-end quality of my latest progress report'. Arguably the default is the lesser of two evils - especially when the user says "What application? I just use the program I always use. You know, the one with the blocky icon".

[Septimius Severus]

Glad to see you got it worked out BlackGuard. I was willing to help with the placements as well but I see Graeme Dice has assisted you guys already and seems to have done a good job. Didn't want to seem like I was meddling, or bias anything in case I am needed as an alternate or sub. It will be interesting to see which team prevails.

[13lackGu4rd]

Glad to see you got it worked out BlackGuard. I was willing to help with the placements as well but I see Graeme Dice has assisted you guys already and seems to have done a good job. Didn't want to seem like I was meddling, or bias anything in case I am needed as an alternate or sub. It will be interesting to see which team prevails.

yeah if we'll need a sub I'll come to you first :up: and if this game goes well than the next edition will be bigger and I'll certainly count you in for it(if you'll still want to of course).

[Graeme Dice]

Could we get a list of the people currently playing in the first post? It will make organizing our team effort a bit easier.

[13lackGu4rd]

Graeme Dice, you along with BigDaddy and Hoplosternum are on the Hot team. I can change the first post now, no problem.

[Frozen Lama]

pretender sent

[Graeme Dice]

Mine's sent too.

[Frozen Lama]

Just waiting on Ctis and Lanka... i want to get started

[BigDaddy]

I ussually send mine in closeish to last, and have been somewhat indisposed until this weekend, I'll get it done tonight.

[Hoplosternum]

Me too. Sorry for the delay. But I should be able to get my Pretender in soon.

[13lackGu4rd]

well, the game started but it seems that the starting locations haven't been fixed, which means that there's something wrong with the map. I've rerolled it back to upload pretenders, but the pretenders should still be in, don't think we'll need to resend.

Graeme, can you take a look at the map and check why it isn't working as intended?

[Graeme Dice]

Somehow the #specstart commands ended up removed from the map file I uploaded. I've attached the correct version to this post.

[13lackGu4rd]

seems like the reroll to upload pretenders on Llamaserver is bugged, and since llamabeast is busy these days I've just started a new game, HeatvsCold instead of HotvsCold. that means we're going to have to reupload the pretenders. sorry for the inconvenience guys, hopefully it will work properly now.

[13lackGu4rd]

going out of town until thursday, so we'll start afterward. just to be on the safe side, if you haven't sent in your pretender yet wait for thursday so game won't automatically start before that and have nobody adminning it.

[Frozen Lama]

Any we are LIVE! my start is good. hopefully everything is good.

[Graeme Dice]

My start is in the correct position. Whether it is good remains to be seen.

[13lackGu4rd]

sorry for the delay guys, I'm back and we're finally up and running. first turn done, lets get this game rolling ;)

[Frozen Lama]

Hey guys, as you probably noticed by the income graph, i had a vampire attack on turn 3 on my cap, and i wasn't able to kick him off this turn. So i would like a restart. if this was a normal game i would just move on, but since its only 6 people i hope its ok. and since its a team game, its not really any fun when one team is gimped right from the beggining. Please comment. hopefully its ok with the heat team

[Graeme Dice]

We figured that something like that had happened. I don't personally mind either way, though I think this is a good example of why not to take misfortune scales. :)

[Hoplosternum]

There is no point playing if you are unhappy. So lets restart :)

[13lackGu4rd]

since the majority(2 from the heat team and obviously all of the cold team) agreed for a restart than I've rolled back the game all the way to turn 2, to allow new events to generate and hopefully not have the vampire count even on Caelum's capital, or anybody else for that matter. than we can go back to normal ;)

so please, delete your turn files, redownload the latest(turn 2) and keep going from there.

[BigDaddy]

Whoa, what happened! I got the alchemical equipment on turn 4! JK, better luck next (this) time cold team!

[Septimius Severus]

How are the themes working out?

[13lackGu4rd]

so far so good, still very early(turn 8) so not much action yet...

[Hoplosternum]

Is this one over? Both Caelum and Jotun staled last turn and Jotun the turn before that.

Not sure the game as a contest is quite over. You still have a lead in gems collected, research and many of your armies are still unfort even if we have a big territorial and income advantage now.

But if most of you are not actually playing anymore shall we call it at this stage...?

[13lackGu4rd]

Is this one over? Both Caelum and Jotun staled last turn and Jotun the turn before that.

Not sure the game as a contest is quite over. You still have a lead in gems collected, research and many of your armies are still unfort even if we have a big territorial and income advantage now.

But if most of you are not actually playing anymore shall we call it at this stage...?

hmmm, wasn't aware the niefel(not jotun) staled twice now :o but well, been talking with Frozen Lama(Caelum) and it seems like we'll concede this 1 to you guys. we chose the wrong strategy, going more for the long term instead of the short term, and perhaps relying too much on the map to halt your advance a bit. so yeah, 3 rainbows vs 2 bless rushers isn't a pretty site...

still haven't seen/heard from Trumanator(niefel) so I'm not ending it just now, but if you say he staled twice than he'll probably agree...

[13lackGu4rd]

yeah, Cold team has conceded the game to the Hot team, congratulations.
game was too short, due to our strategic miscalculation, but from this short time, what do you guys think? is the whole hot vs cold format interesting? is there any potential to pursue on it, perhaps a different age, different settings, etc?

[Frozen Lama]

Sorry about the stale. i had assumed we were conceeding.

Basically team cold outthought us from the get-go. we'd planned for a lot of lategame, and the blessrush kicked our butts. don't i remember lanka saying that he wanted to try playing lanka without a bless? lol.

I think the format is cool, and if we'd been smarter, the game is pretty well balanced overall nationwise.

[Hoplosternum]

I said I wasn't experienced with a bless rush not that I wan't going to rush :) And indeed this is my first one, if it counts as such. And as my Bless was only a single + minors rather than double or tripple bless my scales are OK, although I do have an imprisoned Pretender. So I was looking forward to a good end game. I even had growth scales :p And it was late for a rush. We didn't start fighting until in to the second year.

Those palankashas did much better than I expected :) Even with a fire bless I expected the Skinshifters to be much tougher to take down than they were. But in all the battles I outnumbered them with Palankashas by at least 2 to 1 and usually much more which I think was key. Equal numbers or at least closer to equal numbers would have made a big difference.

As usual I completely misread the game :) I knew we needed blesses (at least myself and probably Abysia) while all your nations could live without one or get bye with just minor blesses. And you all had recruitable Thugs / SCs while only I really had those (Raksharaja's if you consider them to be such). To me that gave you a huge advantage of either going for early reserach (for Thug equipment and buffs for your Thugs/SCs) or to have awake SCs for quick expansion and if Wrym's to nick the underwater provinces. We couldn't really follow either of those strategies (except C'Tis). My bless - which I don't think is an especially good one for Lanka usually - was specifically designed to help neutralise your Thug/SC advantage.

Interesting game. But I think the map was a little too small in the end. It would have been better if we all had more space. This game was unlikely to go on for long whatever happened. Even without an early rush the first big battles would have settled it as we were all so close and there would have been little opportunity to trade space for time.

[BigDaddy]

C'tis was made for lategame, but to be survivable early, with, as you might have guessed, a rainbow master lich.

As an after action, My corner was cramped, and I had no where really to go, except into the water, which was fine, except I was supposed to be takihng 2 lands at a time the last 4-5 turns of year one, but the provinces weren't there. But, anyhow, I wanted to suck some water pronvinces down, and I had the right setup for that. And then I had typical C'tis skelispam in the heat if I needed to defend myself, but I never saw combat.

[Trumanator]

Really sorry for all those stales :( I ran into a perfect storm of big papers due Friday and ROTC literally all day Saturday. I should have asked BG for an extension on friday, but just forgot about it in the madness. Basically FL said it though, the hot team out-thought us and really exploited an early game advantage that we couldn't really counter.

[BigDaddy]

I do want to say, great game Trumanator. I believe you were 'my opponent.' Too bad you staled, but it looks like whatever limited military conflict the two of us might have had would have been unimportant. As it was my plans went mostly off without a hitch, I was just a little smallish, but with water!

I thought I would ressurect this after some thought, with a review of whether or not this setup is workable. I think this was a fine game. We were prepared for a rush by the Cold team, and only I really had a late game design... of course the awake god and bad scales aren't great, but Abysia wasn't all that rushish as it might have been either. But the nations we had were just kind of like that.

Anyway, I think that there is always room for this type of game. One of the telling factors, I would say, is that we played it, essentially, twice. It must have been pretty good.