Question before buying!

[Spacemutiny]

I just saw that there is a digital download available. I've been eyeing this game for quite some time, but before I take the plunge and download it, I wanted to ask long time players a question.

Is it worth it if I only want to play singleplayer? I'm not big on multiplayer, so I don't want to purchase a game that has inadequate AI. So how is the AI in Dominions 3? Will I find it at all challenging?

Thanks for any input!

[Ink]

the answer is no. the game was designed from the ground up as an MP game. the AI is terrible, and the game gets tedious and boring without the excitement of playing other people.

that's the true answer, no matter what GP jumps in to tell you.

OTOH: why don't you like MP? It's a shame the game's distribution format is such that you are unable to test out MP with the community at large and get to see what it is really like.

maybe with DD now a reality, someone really ought to organize a set of demo MP games, or keep some slots for such games available.

[Gandalf Parker]

Its always a surprise to the multiplayers here how many folks play Dom3 solo. :) Most of the people in this forum are MP players. Ive been playing Dominions thru 1, 2, and now 3. And I still love solo games. Thats my true answer. Dont let the jaded turn you away.

Of course no AI is good AI for most people. But this is one better than most games which tend to be barely capable of keeping you interested thru the tutorial. And learning the game well can take almost a year if you want. Of course the forums here will be glad to tell you how to make the AI worthless if you want to know in a hurry.

Then there are maps, mods, various ways to extend the AI. Ive spent this much on many games that lasted a month on my machine. I can safely say that this game outdoes that.

I suppose I should turn the demo games back on at the Dom3Minions.com server. Thanks for the suggestion Ink.

[Ballbarian]

that's the true answer, no matter what GP jumps in to tell you.

Ink, buzz off. Speak for yourself and leave it at that.

I have played multiplayer and loved it, but 99% of my dom2 & dom3 games over the last 5+ years have been single player, and I am still playing.

[BigDaddy]

Also, don't rule out just playing 2player. I've played mostly solo, but a lot of 2 player as well. 2 player blitz is very exciting... but it can move too fast and not really get to late game most of the time.

[Krec]

the game is great solo or mp. you will get more gameplay and variety out of this game then any other turn based fantasy game around. with all the different races, you can play for months and still not cover all the different aspects that are offered. actually thats the fun of the game, finding out all the cool spells and trinkets you can make and different combos you can play. take the plunge, guarantee you will not be disappointed.

[Fantomen]

The AI is challenging at first. And you can crank up the difficulty to keep it so. The sharp learning curve of this game will probably even make you lose a lot of games initially.

However challenging does not mean smart or complex, when you learn more and more advanced strategies the AI will not match it, simply because the game is too complex for the AI and most of the strategies have been developed by players long after the AI was written. And you cannot learn much from watching the AI play. You could say the AI resembles a more or less powerful mob of mindless monsters.

Like Gandalf mentioned, as time passes you can also adjust the game so the AI gets more easy access to the few strategies it can actually handle, involving predesigned gods, settings, modding out useless units and so on. But it will still be stupid. It's more like putting the sharp knives on the top shelf so the baby can't reach it, what you cannot do is teach it to use the knife.

The game is still worth it for SP in my opinion, but as a MP game it's downright outstanding.

[BigDaddy]

When I first got it, I just played SP. I thought this game was throughly awesome then. The AI is only tough for the first 20 or so turns. If you make it that far, then you probably won the game. Some nations are fool proof vs. the AI that aren't against human players. And 2 player stategies might get you killed in multiplayer... or at least heavily nerf you after you win (the MP guides never tell you to pack up all your mages and march toward your enemy, for instance, and they often have you recruiting mages that are impractical in the combat sense... for instance).

There are a lot of different ways to play this game.

The AI also is ferocious in a rich game with impossible AI (they get additional stuff so the richness magnifies even more in a rich game). I had it come at me with a 1500 unit force. I lost in the traditional sense of the word.

I hope you buy it. I think you'll like it. I've even played myself.

[13lackGu4rd]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned this yet but Dominion3's(and 1+2 as well for that matter) Multiplayer is not your standard Multiplayer in other games, be it RTS(Red Alert, Starcraft, Age of Empires, etc), FPS(Counterstrike, Doom, Quake, etc) RPG(World of Warcraft, Neverwinter Nights, etc), or others.

in the Dominions series Multiplayer is mostly played by PBEM(played by email) which means that you don't need to wait for other people to get online before you can actually play together with them. instead the host puts up a game on a server(Llamaserver is the most popular, but there are others such as Gandalf's) than everybody submits their turns whenever they complete them. when all turns are submitted the server processes all the turns at once and than sends each player his new turn.

this however does have some key differences compared to the more standard Multiplayer types. since it's a PBEM system each Multiplayer game takes quite a while, Blitzes can be fast but if they drag on for some reason than they can also become long. standard games can take months to complete, especially if played on large maps.

another thing is that your time spent while playing(be it Singleplayer or Multiplayer for that matter, is in a static environment, so if you don't like this type of games than don't bother at all... if you do like them however than Dominions3 is 1 of the best games of the genre, very complex and with a very steep learning curve.

so overall, if you enjoy this type of games than I'm sure you'd enjoy Dominions, both on Singleplayer and Multiplayer. also before saying "I'm not a Multiplayer person" I'd suggest you try it first, because it's different from the majority of Multiplayer games.

[Edi]

I've played all of one MP game of Dom3 and two of Dom2 and I've invested enough time in this game to have produced a lot of documentation and run the bug lists, because I found it that good. Needless to say, I've played a lot of single player, so for me it was definitely worth it.

[nordlys]

I've played solo since DomPPP and keep returning. I love exploration and experiment far more than competition, and Dominions SP with its countless amount of units, spells and items is a heaven for that. MP with its obsession with efficiency demanding a production of whatever same 2 units with same 3 items are most cost-efficient for this or that nation is a waste of opportunity for me. Like using a Faberge egg to play soccer.

Of course, if overcoming a challenging opposition is your primary interest in gaming, you might be better suited for MP.

[BigDaddy]

I agree that MP can get monotonous. Novel approaches don't always pay off in MP (I'm tempted to say rarely pay off, but you can get some done early and mid-game I think). You can successfully use them SP.

[Gandalf Parker]

Solo play also has a much greater range for changing the game. Where MP seeks balance so that the winner can be decided by their strategy and tactics, solo play thrills to extremes. Both the high and low ranges can explored. I suppose an example of that would be that the chaos games on my server still get regular play. :)

Edit: for those who havent tried them the chaos games tries to give every province completely randomly selected extra units with random equipment. You starting army might include a Horror commander leading dragons, but then the independent province next to you might include a monolith guarded by angels. There are also extra castles, 3 AIs that are allied with each other, and 2 special AIs representing the independents (BIG surprise to have the independents attack your province from next door with a mixture of independents units). NOT recommended for new players. Its an extreme and sometimes unplayably rough game for the jaded oldtimers.
http://www.Dom3Minions.com

[sector24]

I played SP for about 40 hours before I started to feel comfortable with the game's most complex aspects. It's a very high entertainment per dollar value even if you just play SP.

[Baalz]

Yeah, the thing about Dominions is it is so deep you can play many times without ever doing the same thing (particularly at the beginner level). There are an absurd number of nations who all (mostly) play noticably different...and you can even play the same nation several different ways and be competitive. SP is not gonna hold your interest too long if you're interested in MP...but if you're a SP guy Dom SP will give you more bang for the buck than any other SP game I know of.

[Ink]

I love KO and JK too and want them to make lots of markkas, euros, dollars or whatever.

but anyone who says that Dom 3 SP is good bang for bang is being deliberately exclusive and uncritical

not with FREE games like Dwarf Fortress or cheap ones like Mount and Blade around.

Just being honest. IMHO, if you are only going to play SP then dominions is a waste of money, or at least there are better ways to spend your money and time.

[Gandalf Parker]

Im confused. You say the alternative is free or cheap games. You dont say they are better AIs. Even GalCiv which is famous in Artificial Intelligence forums is something I would only consider barely higher for AI.

[danm]

I play single player exclusively, and can still recommend the purchase.

I don't want a game I HAVE to tend to every night, and my attention span/memory just arn't up to games lasting weeks or months -- i'll get bored and start doing stupid stuff just to entertain myself which is not at all fair to the other players.

Single player has its well-documented limitations, but for a more casual gamer who just wants to kill an afternoon every now and then, the challenge level of single player is more than sufficient. By the time i've worked out my national summons, which troops are good for what, remembered all the critical artifacts, and got a couple of thugs kitted out and start to expose the weaknesses of the AI, i've spent more time on the game than i outght to have anyhoo.

This is one of those games i keep coming back to, and is certainly one of the best "$/hour" entertainment "investments" i've ever made.

Honestly, even if you are only interested in multiplayer, you will likely still spend more time in single player learning the ropes than you would on most other games total.

There are WAY worse ways to blow $60

[Trumanator]

It all comes down to whether you're willing to spend $60 on a game with a very predictable and occasionally suicidal AI. If you're more into sandboxing and fooling around then that's great, this is a good game for it. If you want an actual competent opponent(s) then there are better ways to spend that much money. I personally can't stand playing more than maybe 15 turns of SP anymore, it just has no thrill for me.

[Ink]

Im confused. You say the alternative is free or cheap games. You dont say they are better AIs. Even GalCiv which is famous in Artificial Intelligence forums is something I would only consider barely higher for AI.

I didn't even mention GalCiv so stop pulling strawmen out of your ***.

I hate GalCiv, for the record.

[Gandalf Parker]

Granted. As I said, all AI sucks. No AI is AH (almost human). Im guessing your idea of "actual competent opponent(s)" involve human opponents?

So another way of wording the same thing might be:
if you arent a competitive person who thrills at kill-or-be-killed contests against real humans but is happy with an above-average AI that can keep you entertained for more than a month then this is a good game for it.

[Trumanator]

Dominions does not have an above average AI, no matter how many times you say it. It picks scales and magic paths at random unless you pick them for it, it builds massive numbers of absolutely horrible troops unless you modify them to prevent that, is paralyzed by assassin spam, and is dead scared of PD. Don't go spewing bull**** like this is some great example of AI programming.

[Gandalf Parker]

Im well aware of its limitations. The keyword here is "average". Unless you can give me a list of games with better AIs then my opinion stands. Im not saying its great. Only that for people who prefer to play AIs, this doesnt suck as bad as many others. :)

This has become a battle of preachers who fail to answer questions rather than to say switch religions.

[Ink]

many games have decent AI because the game world consists of a limited number of state - action pairs (by limited think around only a billion or so).

dominions has so many state action pairs: how many of each kind of troop in what province in what time of the year with how much gold and how many resources available with what level of research with what magic items currently available with what sorts of enemies in the adjacent province... Each change (one extra or one less gold piece or some troop) is a different state. for one province there are probably trillions and trillions of state-action pairs (and additional provinces enter the equation factorially)

games with limited discrete states can enumerate them all: thus why a computer can now pretty much always beat a human opponent at chess if allowed to. It is really possible to enumerate all the possible states of chess, and it is a markov model (history really doesn't matter) so that simplifies things even more, and all it has to do is pick the next move that maximizes its benefit given every possible move which could occur after that.

other games can provide a pretty exhaustive ontology, or just script the AI, and pretty much just tell it what to do given some set of states.

I'd think a learning agent is pretty much out of the question for dominions, I think good AI will only occur from deliberate scripting. I don't know how JK has it programmed right now, but I'd guess its some sort of scripting. But that's still a lot of scripting to do.

For a game like Mount and Blade AI is a non-issue. Sure it pretty much picks troops at random, but it doesn't matter so much. And they pick enemies at random too, but once again its moot. In the battles the scripting is pretty simple:



if have bow:
if have horse:
stay away from enemies and shoot arrows
else: shoot arrows
else: rush at enemy



So the AI doesn't really have a lot of work to do. Not so for Dominions. For a game like Dominions these choices are REALLY important, and so its going to be really intensive to program an accurate AI. This is what makes it fun for MP. But I just don't think (OK its my opinion, and its my tastes, I know) that Dominions is fun at all for SP. I owned the game for years, and had played many many MP games, before I ever actually beat an SP game (and it was on Silent Seas wraparound, the smallest map, and that was just about so boring I couldn't finish it).

[Gandalf Parker]

I'd think a learning agent is pretty much out of the question for dominions, I think good AI will only occur from deliberate scripting. I don't know how JK has it programmed right now, but I'd guess its some sort of scripting. But that's still a lot of scripting to do.

Its linear, generic to every nation, and has very few IF's (if this nation, if this unit, etc). You can see quite abit of it in the debug logs if you are interested.

But I just don't think (OK its my opinion, and its my tastes, I know) that Dominions is fun at all for SP. I owned the game for years, and had played many many MP games, before I ever actually beat an SP game (and it was on Silent Seas wraparound, the smallest map, and that was just about so boring I couldn't finish it).Thank you.

[samoht]

I just saw that there is a digital download available. I've been eyeing this game for quite some time, but before I take the plunge and download it, I wanted to ask long time players a question.

Is it worth it if I only want to play singleplayer? I'm not big on multiplayer, so I don't want to purchase a game that has inadequate AI. So how is the AI in Dominions 3? Will I find it at all challenging?

Thanks for any input!

I bought the game the week it came out and I've been playing SP the whole time.

Yes. Yes it is worth it. I only once ever played a MP game, destroyed my brother in law, and went right back to SP. It is fantastic. Yes, I imagine MP offers a lot of different challenges and experiences and triumphs that you will not normally see in SP, but SP is still incredible. Every game is like a story of empire unfolding right before your eyes.

[rdonj]

I personally think dominions has a pretty tough AI as far as games go. Until you learn all the AI-stomping tricks, you can expect to be beaten... repeatedly. I can think of plenty of games, RTS or TBS with much easier AIs to defeat. Of course when you know how to play, the AI is completely useless.

I still play SP, and have played SP almost every day since before I signed up for the forums :). I've probably logged similar hours playing dominions as many people do playing MMORPGs. And I've played in a number of MP games as well. So I think a person can easily get their money's worth just playing dominions SP, though from what I've seen most people who try mp have a lot of trouble going back to SP.

I'm someone who doesn't usually like to play strategy games multiplayer, but I still find myself enjoying dominions in multiplayer. I would sggest that even the most hardcore sp person try it at least once. It's a completely different game.

[Jack_Trowell]

I play the game since dominions 2 and have always played solo.

Multiplayer might interest me, but it would not be exactly the same game for me, as I love trying new strategies against the AI, even if its only response is usually to send hordes against my specialised armies or units, but it is still fun.

It tooks month before I was able to test all nations and spells, and with mods I always come back to the game to test new nations and strategies.

[Bananadine]

I agree that MP can get monotonous. Novel approaches don't always pay off in MP (I'm tempted to say rarely pay off, but you can get some done early and mid-game I think). You can successfully use them SP.

One more perspective not yet voiced in this thread: I outgrew the single-player challenge explicitly offered by this game pretty early... but probably not before I'd gotten my $60's worth. I don't happen to be interested in inventing new challenges for myself in single-player Dominions 3 (although I've done that in other games in the past--Battleships Forever, for instance!) so I moved right on to the multiplayer mode.

And... in the multiplayer mode, I do nothing but fun exploration. Or "experimentation", as some might call it. Every few turns I invent some big new strategy for myself, in every multiplayer game I'm in. I've been doing this continually for years, and I still don't entirely know how to play the game. I haven't won a single multiplayer game yet, but I've given my opponents a good challenge, and I almost always have fun. I try to use magic items and spells I haven't used before. There are still dozens of spells whose effects I've never even seen! This game is all about invention and exploration, for me. I see others using strategies they seem to have copied from others. I don't read any guides, I make up my own plans, and as often as not, I win my fights. What happens if you forge and try to effectively use twenty of this rarely-used item? What happens if you pour heavy resources into repeated casting of this obscure spell? What happens if you cast these three powerful, battlefield-wide enchantments at the same time? It is possible to be a player who regularly asks these questions in multiplayer, and gets answers, and has fun doing it, and doesn't totally suck as a result.

In other war games, you usually have to know and practice the "right" way to do things in order to be competitive. In Dominions 3, there is so much complexity even at the most basic level of play that continuous exploration itself seems to be a fundamental part of the "right" way to play, and would be so even if all any player wanted was to win. If everybody was required to attend a full-time, four-year training program to familiarize them with all the basic spells and combinations of spells and so forth before they could enter the multiplayer league, then making up all your own strategies probably wouldn't be a winning... strategy. But I can tell you, the players I've encountered (including me) are not that good at this game. Maybe some players here are, but I think most are not even close. This isn't Starcraft and if you think you know the perfect "build order" for a situation then I would be glad to try to prove you wrong. In multiplayer Dominions 3, there is plenty of room for messing around in the service of victory!

[Knai]

One other. The AI is pretty stupid, and easy enough to take down, but it does take a while to get good. However, multiple people can play on the same computer on any schedule, which is where I play MP, and it is beautiful. I would probably buy it just for Single Player, because Multiplayer is a feasible possibility for the future in many cases. Plus, exploration of the spells and items and such is fun, as are self imposed SP challenges.

That said, there are better strategy games if you only do single player. Battle for Wesnoth for example, or DROD if you want microtactics.

[nordlys]

That said, there are better strategy games if you only do single player. Battle for Wesnoth for example...

:eek:

You can't be serious. Wesnoth is a cheap hack of game not even coming close to the 15-20 years old classics such as Master of Magic, Fantasy General, Crusade: Fight for Power or even Swords of Aragon (and I only mention turn-based, fantasy-themed ones). Other than being a poster boy for open source champions (most of whom somehow also happen to be anime fanboys), this game has as much value as it costs. :rolleyes:

[Fantomen]

Battle for wesnoth is pretty good I think. Very simple and well designed IMO. I don't play it much myself anymore, but my son(12yrs) loves it. And so did I for a while.

It won't compare well to Dom3 or MoM because their values are very different. If I was to compare it to anything it would be warlords.

One of the wonderful things about Battle for wesnoth is that the community provides a vast set of languages, including swedish for example. So it's accessible for kids who don't speak english so well yet.

[Ink]

I'd take BoW over Fantasy General, Crusade: Fight for Power, and even Swords of Aragon any day.

MoM, though... nobody messes with MoM

[Gandalf Parker]

In some ways this conversation has pointed out that the GOOD AI games tend to be ONLY for solo play. Peoples lists of good AI tend toward solo games. Its very difficult to mix MP and Solo-against-AI because both tend to take up alot of the code, and cpu cycles, and memory. Many cuts happen for the sake of processing time. (I did push to have cut code put aside for a server switch since server games could ignore hosting time for the sake of better AI, but it didnt get put in)

Another point that Im not sure has been mentioned or not, is that we should note that we are talking about Vanilla AI. The average AI that comes with any game only has to be good enough to cover the demo, the tutorial, and (if you re lucky) the early learning phase of the game. Thats why I feel Dom3 exceeds the average. I think Dom3 beats that (unless of course you run to the forum for a list of ways to beat the AI).

BUT it should be mentioned for those who are interested in Solo play, or playing larger games with more nations but just a couple of your friends as the human players, there are options for going beyond the vanilla AI that comes with Dom3. There are game settings, maps, mods, etc that can boost the AI beyond just setting it to Impossible.

[rdonj]

Another point that Im not sure has been mentioned or not, is that we should note that we are talking about Vanilla AI. The average AI that comes with any game only has to be good enough to cover the demo, the tutorial, and (if you re lucky) the early learning phase of the game. Thats why I feel Dom3 exceeds the average. I think Dom3 beats that (unless of course you run to the forum for a list of ways to beat the AI).

I disagree with this sentiment. The average AI that comes with any game only *is* good enough to cover demo, tutorial, and early learning phases. But they *should* be good enough to provide a challenge on the highest difficulties. I have a problem beyond that though where I want AIs to not do that in the dumbest way possible. For example, I can't be the only one who's played age of empires 3 and been annoyed with the way the AI will build nothing but cannons at the highest level. I've had to kill armies of literally 20+ cannons in some games... it's really stupid and doesn't give me anything like the experience I'm playing to have. Yes, it makes the AI hard, but the way the AI plays should also be fun and engaging. I have the same problem with pretty much all RTS games, really :/ The AIs get hard by playing in un-fun ways. Anyway, rambling aside, the AI should be hard enough to make you have to work for victory, at least on the hardest settings.

I do think that dominions succeeds at AI beyond what most games do, in that the AI can still be challenging under the right conditions. But a lot more could be done to make the AI more challenging to play against than current mods do. The problem is that I really can't see an easy way to mod a universal "fix" to make the AI better. The best fixes would all require you to make a new mod for every game you play. Unless we start developing mod nations for the sole purpose of being powerful AI combatants (which is not entirely the case at this point).

[Gandalf Parker]

True enough. I should have said that the general consideration of game devs seems to be that it only needs to cover demos, tutorial, and maybe early learning. Obviously as a solo player I myself feel that better AI is a good thing.

But Ive also hung out in AI forums for as long a the net has existed. And Ive seen the discussions. Part of the problem is that the farther into each playing of the game you get, the more branchings the AI has to handle in its logic, and the more it fails.

Dom3 AI is a pretty good example. Its total randomness was a cheap answer to providing maximum replayability. It tries to avoid predictability and MAYBE provide some surprises altho usually it amounts to stupidity. Even with the total aggregate of every AI boost we have available to us, the best I can get is early and mid-game playability. Hoping for possibly a quick win since the AI can never handle a real late-game fight unless its GM'd. The depth of the game we love works against us in hoping for an AI to handle it.

[13lackGu4rd]

if armies of 20 cannons are killing you in AoE3 than you're doing something very wrong :P speaking of AoE3, the AI there is pretty good compared to other AIs. it's alright in medium difficulty(alright as in what medium should be) and starts to get a bit tough on hard, and pretty tough on very hard. still, it's the AI so there are obviously ways to exploit it and destroy him, such as using mass Hussars or whatever those sword armed light cavalries are called, to destroy cannon heavy armies with no pike protection. but still, compared to other games in general and specifically RTS games, Microsoft actually did something right in AoE3, something I can't say about most of their other programs.

Dominions' AI is nothing like AoE3's, it's pathetic. sure, it amasses armies of 300+ men, but it has piss poor magic support, and generally a single army killing spell, from Earthquake to Rain of Stones to Flame Storm, etc, completely annihilates those massive armies.

the main problem is that Dominions is so complex and with such a variety of both units and spells, that no AI can actually handle it properly. even those super genius chess AIs won't do well in Dominions due to the sheer amount of options and variables upon which said options are evaluated on. in chess you have a lot less moves, and the success/failure of said move is a lot easier to calculate. in Dominions there are a ton more options, and the results said actions lead to(mainly on the strategic map but also during battles) are very hard if not outright impossible to predict.

with that being said, there are still a lot of things that *can* be improved with Dominions' AI, such as combat scripting(or well, lack of, hence automatic behavior), actually casting/dispelling globals, actually using rituals, site search, not stack a ton of useless PD, etc.

the main question for the developers is whether all the work that needs to be done to improve the AI will be worth it. is there enough demand for a better AI in Dominions and in other TBS in general? personally I don't think so, as no AI will reach the level of multiplayer, as I've explained above, so multiplayer will still remain the favored options by seasoned players. those who love single player and endless hours of AI annihilation will continue to do so with or without an improved AI. thus I don't think the AI will get much better than it already is, which is unfortunate. the only field which I think might(or at the very least should) actually see some work is the battlefield spell choice, as that affects both single player and multiplayer(when you forgot to script mages, and more commonly when they run out of their 5 turn script).

[TheConway]

Epic bump much?

Anyways, Blackguard more or less hit the nail on the head.

@rdonj: Good AI nations? Try Amos mods ;)

[Gandalf Parker]

The AI is one long sequential run. To improve it would take many many IF statements.

To fix it to a more updated tree-structured AI would take a major rewrite of the code which is not going to happen.

So we are left with what is at our disposal. We have found game settings (such as resources and indepts) that improve the AI. We have found MAP commands which improve the AI. And we have MODDING which can improve the AI. The maximum of all of these tends to me more AI than even the solo lovers can wear out.

Its still not equal to a Human player in an MP game that goes all the way to EndGame. But for a thread that started out asking if the AI was adequate to Solo play, it is an answer.
IMHO of course.

[rdonj]

I'm going to be doing a few quotes here...

Dom3 AI is a pretty good example. Its total randomness was a cheap answer to providing maximum replayability. It tries to avoid predictability and MAYBE provide some surprises altho usually it amounts to stupidity. Even with the total aggregate of every AI boost we have available to us, the best I can get is early and mid-game playability. Hoping for possibly a quick win since the AI can never handle a real late-game fight unless its GM'd. The depth of the game we love works against us in hoping for an AI to handle it.

I am pretty fond of the dom3 AI. It handles early game and midgame at least to a reasonable extent, even if it stands no chance in late game. So I actually agree with you there. The way the AI works is good for making it challenging early on... if only the AI knew how to use powerful units.

if armies of 20 cannons are killing you in AoE3 than you're doing something very wrong :P speaking of AoE3, the AI there is pretty good compared to other AIs. it's alright in medium difficulty(alright as in what medium should be) and starts to get a bit tough on hard, and pretty tough on very hard. still, it's the AI so there are obviously ways to exploit it and destroy him, such as using mass Hussars or whatever those sword armed light cavalries are called, to destroy cannon heavy armies with no pike protection. but still, compared to other games in general and specifically RTS games, Microsoft actually did something right in AoE3, something I can't say about most of their other programs.

No, I was killing them :P I just hated it because it was stupid. 20 cannons vs massed cavalry doesn't make for very fun gameplay. Also I prefer long games, so that sort of thing happens to me a lot :P. I do agree that AoE 3 had a pretty effective AI, I just wish that it could be effective without resorting to silliness like that. I'd like to see the AI make use of more different types of units and create real armies to attack you with.

the main problem is that Dominions is so complex and with such a variety of both units and spells, that no AI can actually handle it properly. even those super genius chess AIs won't do well in Dominions due to the sheer amount of options and variables upon which said options are evaluated on. in chess you have a lot less moves, and the success/failure of said move is a lot easier to calculate. in Dominions there are a ton more options, and the results said actions lead to(mainly on the strategic map but also during battles) are very hard if not outright impossible to predict.

with that being said, there are still a lot of things that *can* be improved with Dominions' AI, such as combat scripting(or well, lack of, hence automatic behavior), actually casting/dispelling globals, actually using rituals, site search, not stack a ton of useless PD, etc.

There's a really, really easy way to make the AI 100x more effective. Take options away from it. The problem is just that you'd have to have either a different mod for every nation you want to play, or you'd have to create a mod nation/nations for the sole purpose of having a challenge in SP. The AI will never be intelligent, so the best way around that for us is to remove potential idiocy.

I'm always surprised though when I hear people say that the AI doesn't cast spells/globals etc, because I've had them do that plenty of times with me. I've even had global slot battles with the AI before. I once had to fight an AI marignon army in SP that summoned summer lions and fire snakes, and spammed prison of fire at me. Sometimes the AI can be surprisingly effective.


The Conway - I know Amos has some pretty unbalanced mods out there... I'd say I've played about half of them! But if I wanted a truly effective AI, I'd go a bit more in the direction of warhammer chaos. A lot of Amos' nations have weak national units and... weird commanders, for one thing. One of the most important things to do is ensure that the AI has effective troops and commanders available to it. Kind of like the hellgate mod, but even more so :)

[Gandalf Parker]

@rdonj Im surprised that we are agreeing on all of this. :)

Ive often jumped into threads about nation mods when someone jumps on a new modder about their mod being "unbalanced". I try to offer the alternative of forget the balance, go for AI. Some have ignored balance suggestions but not many have openly pursued a mod for AI play.

There are many threads though where people have used the debug and comptrn switches to actually watch what the AI is doing. Yes it tends to surprise people how much thought the AI does actually put into each spell selection and recruiting action. Not enough of course, but its far from brainless. Knowing what it does, and why, can go far toward working WITH it to remove temptations to be stupid.

Just a few examples that have been given...
A) remove flak units from the nation, it doesnt use them very well
B) more resources at the capital
C) a Lore Master or such site at the capital helps the AI keep up with players who burn thru to a particular spell for endgame
D) the AI actually DOES recognize SC vs Rainbow pretenders. To the AI the PURPOSE of an SC is to go to war and participate in arenas. So dont give it SCs. In fact, the safest bet is to give it immobile gods
E) its been noted in other threads which magic the AI does/doesnt use well. Choose accordingly
F) the AI does use some spells well altho getting access to them tends to be undirected and random. National spells can go a long way toward improving this

Unfortunately... my own efforts at improving AI have tended to be more in server or map commands (my areas). Quite abit can be done in map and scenario functions but Id still like to see more mods saying they are based specifically on AI testing.

Also, Im rather random myself. My method of testing is hit-n-miss. I can stumble on surprising things but I wont ever come up with some of the detailed analysis that some people put into pinning down the exact formulas in the game. Id like to see some of their skills put toward the AI spell list, and AI recruitment.

[thejeff]

I think most of the resistance to the idea of turning powerful mod nations into AI only nations is that people want to play them not just fight against them. Also a lot of things that would be overpowered in a good player's hands the AI might just flail around with, so a nation could be overpowered but still weak for the AI.

One thought for boosting AI nations is to mod in summons that are the equivalent of fully-geared and buffed thugs and SCs. The AIs real trouble with either is that it doesn't equip them sensibly or cast the useful buffs. So make summons that lack slots and paths, but have built-in gear, resistances etc that mimic at least the common thug gear. I know everything isn't moddable, but many things are. Resistances, MR, luck, ethereal, regen, reinvig, fear, awe, fireshield. I don't think there's a way to get the VineShield effect. If you give them weapons in a mod, I don't think they get the special effects, but most of them you could add in as an extra attack.

Since this would be for the AI to use in SP, balance isn't a great concern. You can just mark the spells as "AI-only" and let the player honor that. Or not. It's SP.

[Stavis_L]

One thought for boosting AI nations is to mod in summons that are the equivalent of fully-geared and buffed thugs and SCs. The AIs real trouble with either is that it doesn't equip them sensibly or cast the useful buffs. So make summons that lack slots and paths, but have built-in gear, resistances etc that mimic at least the common thug gear. I know everything isn't moddable, but many things are. Resistances, MR, luck, ethereal, regen, reinvig, fear, awe, fireshield. I don't think there's a way to get the VineShield effect. If you give them weapons in a mod, I don't think they get the special effects, but most of them you could add in as an extra attack.

Since this would be for the AI to use in SP, balance isn't a great concern. You can just mark the spells as "AI-only" and let the player honor that. Or not. It's SP.

Interestingly, I've been working on just this. The main question I have is how to get the AI to summon the "prebuilt thugs" vs. (for instance) Summon Animals.

Also, the number of units is somewhat problematic since each summon requires a spell slot...

[rdonj]

Gandalf - Yeah, it's rare for us to agree on much. The AI is one of the few points we can agree on. I've never felt the dominions AI was quite as bad as a lot of players make it out to be. It can challenge you for a while, especially if you don't exploit its weaknesses too much.

Other things that make an AI nation better - good PD. I played an SP game against the Dwarfs with Brettonia once... their tough PD made it *very* hard to raid safely thanks to all the crossbows, and if they have slayers in their armies they can kill some powerful things with just one lucky hit. So tough as nails PD should be on the list... as well as high-attack units that do plenty of damage.

I would go even a step further with the national summons, and do the same thing to their recruitable thugs/SCs. Then take away their magic so they can't cast spells uselessly (or give them plenty of reinvigoration so they can't knock themsleves out). Then reduce their price so the AI is more likely to hire them. Getting the AI to cast national summons could be hard... keeping them cheap is probably the best way to do it, but there's no way to force them to do what you want there as far as I can tell.

Recruitable high-research mages are a must, as Gandalf suggested. The AI doesn't do TOO bad at researching early on, but it tends to get pretty far behind by mid-game. The removal of chaff units, also a must.

Oh, and the vineshield effect actually is moddable :)

[llamabeast]

Also, the number of units is somewhat problematic since each summon requires a spell slot...

When the new patch comes out we'll have LOADS more spell slots.

[thejeff]

I've been tossing the idea around in the back of my head for awhile, mostly when these discussions come up. I probably saw someone suggest it before. I'd like to use it, but the issue hasn't bothered me enough to work on it myself.

One way to solve both problems would be to replace "Summon Animals" and similar spells. Not sure I'd like that approach. I'd rather not change the human players options and Summon Animals is occasionally useful.

I've got no real idea what the AI bases its ritual casting decisions on. I know I've seen it use modded summons. My assumption is that making the spells cheaper and easier will make them more likely to be used, but beyond that it's hard to say.

How many spell slots are available? I know there have been mods that added quite a few new summons. How many were you planning on?

[rdonj]

Stavis - I saw you asking about what summons the AI likes to use in the other forum. I don't quite think that's appropriate for that thread, but what I see the AI summon most are things like fire snakes, summer lions, spring hawks, fall bears, clockwork horrors, naiad warriors, banes, bane lords, hama dryads, ghosts and shura. I've probably seen other things also, but those are the ones I remember best at present.

[theenemy]

If you like a sandbox environment where you can experiment with different strategies and such then you can probably play around with the game in SP for quite a while.
The gameplay value in SP is however at zero percent.

[thejeff]

That is not true. (I suppose, depending on what you mean by "gameplay value" it could be...)

Plenty of people, including me, play SP and enjoy it.
Impossible AIs, especially with the BetterIndependents mod, can be quite challenging through midgame, if you aren't abusing the AI flaws or playing an early game optimized strategy (awake SC pretender, strong double bless nation, strong recruitable thug/SCs)

It's not as challenging as MP can be, especially as the game goes on and you get more options, which the AI doesn't even try to counter. OTOH, some strategies actually work better in MP than against the AI.

[Gandalf Parker]

Eventually everyone tends to get too familiar and abit unhappy with the vanilla game. For those people there are varieties of game settings, special maps, game mods and nation mods, and even 3rd party programs. All of which are designed to make the game different than vanilla.

That doesnt just apply to MP play. It also applies to Solo play and to upgrading the AI. There are settings, maps, mods, modded nations, and 3rd party programs which take the AI far beyond what you might have played when you were going thru the demo or tutorial.

[JonBrave]

That doesnt just apply to MP play. It also applies to Solo play and to upgrading the AI. There are settings, maps, mods, modded nations, and 3rd party programs which take the AI far beyond what you might have played when you were going thru the demo or tutorial.

For SP, is there a particualr link/thread to guide to these? For example, I think I read the Balance Mod is not best for AI, where should I start looking? Thanks.

[DeadlyShoe]

CBM works fine for the AI, it's just not targeted at it. It tends to create a more balanced SP experience because of better general balance, and also eliminates some strategies which the AI cannot effectively counter.

[Stavis_L]

That doesnt just apply to MP play. It also applies to Solo play and to upgrading the AI. There are settings, maps, mods, modded nations, and 3rd party programs which take the AI far beyond what you might have played when you were going thru the demo or tutorial.

For SP, is there a particualr link/thread to guide to these? For example, I think I read the Balance Mod is not best for AI, where should I start looking? Thanks.

Some of the more popular ways to improve the SP experience are:


Edi's Better Independents (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39225) mod (sets recruit costs for indeps sky high so the AI doesn't create hordes of generic units.)
Using a no-indep-recruitables (NI) map; Sombre created a few in this thread (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39253), and there are more if you dig around. (Uses map editing to remove generic units as poptype recruitables.)
Ballbarian's SemiRandom (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=34826) program (creates maps from template files that have custom designed provinces/pretenders, so you don't get self-crippling AI opponents as much, and the province defenders are more likely to make sense for the province in question.)
Specific scenario maps, like Edi's Faerun (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=40776) map (a map with custom designed provinces). There are other scenario maps out there, although not as many as one would like...
Using "overpowered" mods as AI opponenents; some people put some of Amos' mods in that category, although I haven't tried them personally.

[Gandalf Parker]

This thread started out as "House Rules Against AI" but it turned into a general thread on improving the AI.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44783
Unfortunately there isnt a sticky on the subject of Solo games.

[JonBrave]

Thank you, guys above, these are all excellent answers!

[theenemy]

That is not true. (I suppose, depending on what you mean by "gameplay value" it could be...)

Plenty of people, including me, play SP and enjoy it.
Impossible AIs, especially with the BetterIndependents mod, can be quite challenging through midgame, if you aren't abusing the AI flaws or playing an early game optimized strategy (awake SC pretender, strong double bless nation, strong recruitable thug/SCs)

It's not as challenging as MP can be, especially as the game goes on and you get more options, which the AI doesn't even try to counter. OTOH, some strategies actually work better in MP than against the AI.

Yeah, you and a handful of people enjoy Dom3 SP, good for you. It's not my thing however. If you need to play a game a certain way to get enjoyment out of it then it's a bad game I reckon.
All I can say is that if Dom3 was a strictly SP game,I would never pay 50 bucks for it. Maybe 5/6 dollars at most.
Just my opinion.

[Gandalf Parker]

Nothing wrong with an opinion like that. I dont think I will ever buy a game that is MP only so Id say it can probably go both ways. And Ive been equally unsatisfied with purchased games where the AI barely covered the tutorial.

The comment about "If you need to play a game a certain way to get enjoyment out of it then it's a bad game I reckon." can also go both ways.

Not sure about things like "a handful". Dom3 has sold far more copies than are present in the MP games I know of. And the forum gets far more visitors than are logged in (Ive often been told that one of the few reasons for making a login is to join mp games or ask some question that has never been asked). Ive rarely heard of anyone who bought it and deleted it without feeling they got their money worth (though I always recommend trying the demo just to be sure in case anyone is lurking this). And the variant games on my server that allow single-player to try out versions of Dom3 thry might not easily have access to otherwise do get a fair bit of 1-player plays vs multiplayer. So most of the activity might seem to be about mp but I dont really go for the "handful" thing as straight numbers.

Its pretty cool that a game is able to support multiple versions of play.

[theenemy]

Nothing wrong with an opinion like that. I dont think I will ever buy a game that is MP only so Id say it can probably go both ways.

I didn't mean that Dom3 should be MP only. No need to pick on details. I am an SP guy myself, I just find Dom3s SP very hollow and boring.

The comment about "If you need to play a game a certain way to get enjoyment out of it then it's a bad game I reckon." can also go both ways.

For me this comment can only go in one way, but enlighten me on how this can be a positive thing?
I believe that making game mechanics enjoyable is the job of the devs. and not the gamers.(yea yea dom3 is an indie game made by two guys yadda yadda... but still)


Its pretty cool that a game is able to support multiple versions of play.

And I thank Illwinter for that:)

PS: Just out of curiosity Gandalf; would you pay 50 bucks for Dom3 if it was an SP-game only and there was NO way to play it in MP?

[archaeolept]

Gandalf doesn't really play MP, so it is clear that his answer will be in the affirmative.

SP varies greatly by person and personality. I think domIII has pretty good SP potential for a lot of people, due to its huge amount of content, but not for others, due to the game mechanics being too complex to have an adequate AI. I enjoy SP when i'm looking for strategies for a nation, but as soon as I start an MP game i just stop playing any SP...

[Gandalf Parker]

The comment about "If you need to play a game a certain way to get enjoyment out of it then it's a bad game I reckon." can also go both ways.

For me this comment can only go in one way, but enlighten me on how this can be a positive thing?
I took it to be that you were saying if it can only be played solo then its a bad game. By "both ways" I meant that a game which can only be played mp might also be considered by some to be a bad game.

I believe that making game mechanics enjoyable is the job of the devs. and not the gamers.(yea yea dom3 is an indie game made by two guys yadda yadda... but still)
I might have said mission, not job. And it can be the mission of the player community as well as it can be the mission of the devs. To say its the "job" of the devs is rather defeating and dead end in this case.

Its pretty cool that a game is able to support multiple versions of play.
PS: Just out of curiosity Gandalf; would you pay 50 bucks for Dom3 if it was an SP-game only and there was NO way to play it in MP?I have in the past for similar. For that matter, it might as well be said that I did for Dom3. I was already tired of it in multiplay before it was released yet I did pay for a couple of copies.

But if it had been developed for solo play only, then even more so. If the game had been developed with only one or the other in mind then I suspect it would have done a better job of it.

[DeadlyShoe]

it's almost guaranteed that 80-90% of the purchases for dom3 are majority SP, if not exclusively SP. Long term web communities tend to be MP focused for obvious reasons but it's SP that drives sales.

also, the AI is good enough and varied enough that it will take dozens of hours of dom3 experience to reliably knock down impossibles. People who have been playing this game for years drastically underestimate its complexity for new players.

[cleveland]

it's almost guaranteed that 80-90% of the purchases for dom3 are majority SP,
What?

if not exclusively SP.
What?

Long term web communities tend to be MP focused for obvious reasons but it's SP that drives sales.
What?

[DeadlyShoe]

I guess that's mystifying? There really is a SP silent majority in most game genres. Any examination of sales #s vs multiplayer activity makes this apparent, even if your own experience does not.

It only makes sense that online communities are heavily biased towards those with an interest in multiplayer. Even SP gamers with an interest in discussing the game may not wish to go through the hassle of registering to a board and will at best lurk.

[Soyweiser]

I guess that's mystifying? There really is a SP silent majority in most game genres. Any examination of sales #s vs multiplayer activity makes this apparent, even if your own experience does not.

So you have both accurate sales figures and multiplayer figures? Where did you get those?

And if you have them. Share or gtfo.

[Bananadine]

If DeadlyShoe had had those figures, DeadlyShoe would have said "80-90% of the purchases for dom3 are majority SP", rather than "it's almost guaranteed that 80-90% of the purchases for dom3 are majority SP". Words, mang, words

[nrasch]

So now I'm curious after all this debate and back-and-forth.... did you buy the game in the end? ;)

Nathan